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Primal Fury
2009-05-25, 11:59 AM
It's been quite some time since I've posted on these forums, so I've decided to pose a little inquery to y'all. What is the most over-the-top RPG you guys have ever played and/or heard of? This can be simply in terms of mechanical power, or as complex as the deeds that have been performed that make a specific campaign incredibly memorable.

Kylarra
2009-05-25, 12:00 PM
Exalted and its modern counterpart Scion come to mind instantly.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 12:01 PM
4th edition D&D.

A close second would be Munchkin.

Morty
2009-05-25, 12:01 PM
4th edition D&D.


It doesn't come even close to Exalted, from what I've heard.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-25, 12:03 PM
Not too long ago, I was a druid in a campaign with someone who was a cleric. Most of the gaming sessions were like sitcoms.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 12:03 PM
It doesn't come even close to Exalted, from what I've heard.

Never played Exalted. :smallwink:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-05-25, 12:04 PM
Exalted and its modern counterpart Scion come to mind instantly.

This. Exalted is crazy, with moves like (and I'm making this one up, but it's rather par for course) Invincible Progression of the Ten Thousand Burning Gods. Scion isn't as...obviously over the top, I suppose. Still, you're the CHILD OF A FREAKIN' GOD! Want to throw a common baseball far enough that it comes around and hits you in the back of the head? Can do. Want to jump over the Empire State Building, then pick it up and throw it? Can do.

Grey Paladin
2009-05-25, 12:06 PM
Nobilis. You are nothing less than an incarnation of a concept or a word, with utter control of it.

Primal Fury
2009-05-25, 12:26 PM
Though I haven't reached it just yet, Aberrant offers the option of planet affecting/destroying abilities, and universe creation. So... yeah.

Starscream
2009-05-25, 12:41 PM
Exalted is definitely a contender.

GURPS can be, depending of the style of play. Most of these "generic" systems allow for high levels of weirdness when you start mixing the more esoteric sourcebooks together.

I don't want to start a 3.5 vs 4e debate, but what makes you think of it as "over the top"? True there is more focus on the powers of the characters, but that is true of many systems.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-25, 12:45 PM
HeroQuest and RuneQuest played at higher levels of power. You go back in time to punch a goddess so hard all her people start having miscarriages and giving birth to malformed children (literally; a divine construct did this in the official Gloranthan history). Or you can go back in time to undo that. When you screw around like this badly enough, all the gods come down to kick your ass. (And then, if your name is Rufelza, you kick all their asses and force them to include you among the gods.)

Mid-level heroes can put their head back on after being decapitated, or sow themselves together when they're cut in half; high-level heroes call upon dragons the size of mountain ranges, lead armies to scale impossible needle-shaped mountains at age five, and deal each other wounds that will never heal. When a hundred sun-priests made the sun turn its scorching eye on Harrek the Berserk, his and his men's weapons melted away, but the priests all fell down dead, and the the minds of all the priests supporting them hundreds of miles away were blasted...

Glorantha is mythology in action, and the heroes don't just get to take the equivalent of the roles of Hector or even Hercules, but of the Olympians and the Titans...


Edit: Simon Phipp's insane Dorastor campaing. (http://www.soltakss.com/#Dorastor) Incredibly over-the-top within the fairly low-power and conservative older RuneQuest system, but pretty much in line with modern conceptions of Glorantha.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-25, 12:47 PM
The one & only answer is F.A.T.A.L. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.T.A.L._(roleplaying_game)) :smallbiggrin:

Over-the-Top? Yes.

Good & fun? Uh, no. Good god, no.

Murdim
2009-05-25, 12:47 PM
Never played Exalted. :smallwink:From what I heard, the game pretty much consists of playing an inexplicably humanoid cosmic being who makes magic thanks to his ridiculously-named secret ancestral martial art skills and can beat gods singlehandedly. You're a Good Guy, and your perpetual goal is to become even stronger to beat even more ridiculously powerful villains. Here's a probable exemple of (low-level and somewhat unsubtle) Exalted character (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/31/11740-ssj3_goku_super.jpg).

This is what I would call over-the-top. Actually, even without taking into account this sort of extreme examples, i find 4E quite dull with its MMO-inspired player roles and its unorginal special powers universally and uniformally distributed between the different classes.


Ah, and some of them have sex with animals, too.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 01:06 PM
M&M is also over the top. You can quite literally double the world's human population for about 50 power points (which is one third your starting power points at the suggested starting levels). But it's not nearly as intentionally over-the-top as Exalted.

Exalted has you kill a mountain god, slash the mountain into two and get rid of the Realm control in the surrounding twelve cities as part of a complete breakfast. And then you get to the not-so-simple stuff.

Also, any RPG where you can have a name like Seven Triumphant Truths Under the Rose and people will call it too short is obviously epic.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 01:06 PM
I don't want to start a 3.5 vs 4e debate, but what makes you think of it as "over the top"? True there is more focus on the powers of the characters, but that is true of many systems.

Oh don't worry about that with me, if that is what you meant, and was responding to what I said. I don't like any WotC edition of D&D, so have no horse in the 3.x vs 4th race. :smallwink:

I just think 4th went over the top in design that leaves nothing really for a roleplaying game, but seems more like a tactical simulation game as read. There is too much focus and detail on combat, and even the rituals provided offer little to nothing for outside of combat use. Even the spells and wonder of magic have been turned into combat abilities and little else.

So calling 4th edition an RPG to me is what is over-the-top. It is more along the lines of a set of advanced rules for DDM.

@Murdim:

So like any translation of d20 system to anime product eh? That said any anime based RPG is over-the-top. Nice place to visit (watch) but I wouldn't want to live (game) there.

Rifts could get over-the-top as well crossing every genre from fantasy~sci-fi and acting like it was an everyday thing. :smallconfused:

But Rahu-men and Glitterboys fighting dragons and lizard mages had some pretty fun times. :smallbiggrin:

I guess it depends on where you draw the line with any RPG as to the genre or style it tries to represent as to what goes to far for you to subjectively say it is over-the-top. :smallsmile:

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-25, 01:08 PM
Exalted is not anime, it's wuxia. There is a large difference between shonen anime and wuxia (for one, wuxia is often more serious).

sonofzeal
2009-05-25, 01:10 PM
Paranoia deserves a mention here, for sheer ludicrousness combined with simple rules and great playability. If you're looking for a wacky fun time with friends over an RPG, Paranoia might be your best bet. Exalted is far more epic (Paranoia characters are lucky if they make it to the BRIEFING ROOM alive, while Exalted characters shape the world itself by their mere existance), but if you're looking for comedic roleplaying then Paranoia should be your first stop.


Also, while F.A.T.A.L. is legendary for its excesses, they're mostly just on the sexual/immature/offensive front. The World of Synnibarr is probably a better call in this area, what with flying grizzly bears with laser beam eyes, and all that jazz. Synnibarr might be the most enjoyable "worst game ever", from what I've heard.

Artanis
2009-05-25, 01:11 PM
Never played Exalted. :smallwink:

You know the "stunts" section of Acrobatics in 4e? And how you have to make a skill check to pull them off, getting screwed over if you fail the check?

In Exalted, not only do you not make a check for that, but you are actively and mechanically encouraged to pull stunts like that on every. Single. Roll.

And that's before you get to the chapter that talks about what an Incarnation of Pure Awesome is really capable of.

Kylarra
2009-05-25, 01:12 PM
I'll also throw out MAID rpg for sheer hilarity.

Satyr
2009-05-25, 01:13 PM
In regard of over the top characters, Armageddon is a prime candidate. What is a mere scion of a god compared to the direct avatars or a god? Or an elder Seraphim? Fortunately, Armageddon is also a fairly realistic game, so even if a charcter weilds the divine powers of he heavenly host, a lucky child soldier with an AK-47 can still hurt them badly.

Gurps probably allows for the most extreme characters, you just have to apply enough points.

Kylarra
2009-05-25, 01:16 PM
In regard of over the top characters, Armageddon is a prime candidate. What is a mere scion of a god compared to the direct avatars or a god? Or an elder Seraphim? Fortunately, Armageddon is also a fairly realistic game, so even if a charcter weilds the divine powers of he heavenly host, a lucky child soldier with an AK-47 can still hurt them badly.

Gurps probably allows for the most extreme characters, you just have to apply enough points.Scion goes all the way up to god-tier powers. :smallwink:

RTGoodman
2009-05-25, 01:18 PM
The one & only answer is F.A.T.A.L. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.T.A.L._(roleplaying_game)) :smallbiggrin:

You know, I was thinking about mentioning F.A.T.A.L, but I didn't want to be cruel and didn't want to be responsible if someone actually went out and played it. :smalltongue:


Anyway, Nobilis is one I'd suggest - like someone else already said, you're literally the cosmic embodiment of some idea or word. I guess from what I've read that Exalted is pretty over-the-top, too, but I haven't played it.

Oh, there's also the Wushu system. It's not INHERENTLY over-the-top, but it could be. I mean, the basis of the system is "You automatically succeed at what you say you do, and then you roll dice to see HOW WELL you did it."


EDIT: Also, The Veggie Patch (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=20710&it=1&filters=0_0_10030). Yeah, I own it. What of it? :smallbiggrin:

Iku Rex
2009-05-25, 01:39 PM
In terms of character power: Amber Diceless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Diceless_Roleplaying_Game). No contest. I don't think I'd describe it as "over-the-top" though. The winner in that regard would have to be Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_(role-playing_game)). (Or possibly Toon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toon_(role-playing_game)).)

Zaq
2009-05-25, 01:54 PM
I've only played Paranoia once, but it's pretty darned over-the-top.

For my money, though, I'd have to go with our group's heavily houseruled Kobolds Ate My Baby. I usually describe it as "One-half storytelling, one-half improv comedy, and one-half bat[boop] insanity. 150% intentional." Or else "As if Douglas Adams wrote Looney Tunes." If it's awesome, hilarious, or humiliating (for you, another player, or both), you can at least roll to try to get away with it. We've had people swimming up mountains; having Batman stick his head inside them to breathe; running so fast they cause the compass rose to spin around and thus break directions; using the traps skill to turn invincible demons into lawnmowers; inventing the crudely biological "baby cannon;" filling a dog's head with magical bees until they shoot out of its nose like bullets; being turned into a mummy by Larry Craig; swimming through the time stream to fight the sea king for Prince Genji's (yes, that Genji) affections; dying by attempting to extricate the corpse of their father's murderer from their father's corpse (you had to be there); stripping the Pope naked and starting a musical number; trying to get Judge Kitten elected Senator; and last but not least, ending one session by Belgium (the entire country, land mass included) plummeting out of the sky and squashing them all, or as we called it, the "Belgium falls, everyone dies" moment.

Among other things.

Blackjackg
2009-05-25, 02:03 PM
Exalted is not anime, it's wuxia. There is a large difference between shonen anime and wuxia (for one, wuxia is often more serious).

It's a little of both. Actually, a lot of both, with a bunch of other stuff mixed in. But I'd relate it to anime (or to certain animes, such as Bleach or that other one... with the dog-demon dude and the chick with the bow. Might start with an F... Definitely not Naruto. Damn it, one of you anime fans help me out here.) more than to wuxia. Except maybe Hero. That flick was bad-ass.

I was going to mention Exalted and Paranoia for the reasons already mentioned, but the ultimate was the original rules Aberrant. Quantum-powered superheroes in a modern world, with abilities that could get up to Exalted/Scion-God level and beyond. Pretty dang over-the-top.

sonofzeal
2009-05-25, 02:08 PM
Oh, also from the list of "worst RPG ever", SenZar (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_2265.html) definitely deserves a mention. Horrible balance, cheesy flavour, but surprisingly elegant rules (according to the review). This is another one I'd like to give a try.

Starscream
2009-05-25, 02:18 PM
The World of Synnibarr is probably a better call in this area, what with flying grizzly bears with laser beam eyes, and all that jazz. Synnibarr might be the most enjoyable "worst game ever", from what I've heard.

Yes. It's the RPG equivalent of an Ed Wood movie. It's so bad it comes back around to good from the other side.

And I forgot to mention Toon. Much like Munchkin, the over-the-top qualities of that one are both completely intentional, and masterfully done.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 02:18 PM
dog-demon

The show you are looking for is in the name of what you said.

Inu=dog. :smallwink:

InuYasha and Kagome are who you are talking about.

Blackjackg
2009-05-25, 02:25 PM
Yeah, that one! Curse my lack of knowledge of Japanese etymology! Someday. Wonder why I thought it started with an F.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 02:41 PM
Yeah, that one! Curse my lack of knowledge of Japanese etymology! Someday. Wonder why I thought it started with an F.

Fushi Yuigi(sp) is also a fuedal era anime.

Fruits Basket has a bit of feudal era themes to it.

There is so many anime programs out there, you won't pick a starting letter for a title that won't have an anime that fits the genre you want to apply to it. :smallwink:

But oddly that is one of the few anime fitting to D&D that I never saw adopted to d20.

Any anime RPG will be over-the-top compared to other games in any genre, because most anime IS over-the-top.

potatocubed
2009-05-25, 03:32 PM
World of Synnibar (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target135.html)

Also, I think Rifts deserves at least an honourable mention here. Where your party can plausibly consist of a mirror-finished unstoppable tank-man, a manic-depressive supersoldier with an irrational fear of spinach, a psychic velociraptor with an ancient runesword, and a fry cook with a handgun.

Haven
2009-05-25, 04:21 PM
M&M is also over the top. You can quite literally double the world's human population for about 50 power points

Haha! I forgot about that! Also, if you take a perception range power and then extend the range on super-senses enough times, you can basically light anyone on the planet on fire anytime you want and they can't do anything about it.

But that would be rather inefficient.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-25, 08:39 PM
Any anime RPG will be over-the-top compared to other games in any genre, because most anime IS over-the-top.

Not really. There's a lot of anime starring normal people with no special powers whatsoever, and little to no action. Most of these are aimed at an older audience than One Bleachrutoball Z, obviously.

shadzar
2009-05-25, 08:59 PM
Not really. There's a lot of anime starring normal people with no special powers whatsoever, and little to no action. Most of these are aimed at an older audience than One Bleachrutoball Z, obviously.

While I don't think you intend to include the clearly mundane and non-supernatural characters in Death Note, I know there are plenty of anime that fits this, but how many non-Shonen manga would be able to be turned into an RPG? Clannad? Suzuka? Spicy Wolf? Hikaru no Go? Azumanga Diaoh? Mach-a-Go-Go? (Speed Racer for non-anime folk)

Shin-chan would surely be filled with special powers with Action B******.

So while most anime may not be over-the-top as One Piece, Bleach, Naruto and DBZ as you note, the rest will not likely make a good RPG game, while many make for good dating sims, or horror games. (School Days anyone? :smalleek:)

The only current anime people may know of without special powers that would make for a non-over-the-top RPG, would probably be one with D&D roots...Record of Lodoss Wars, and Moribito(sp).

Bleach, Naruto, Avatar (anime-like), Trigun and the other d20 anime games were all well over-the-top, and some even more so than the shows and manga they originate from.

So I hope you get what I mean about anime-based RPGs. There really cannot be a Whisper of the Heart, Totoro, or Prince of Tennis RPG as we know RPGs. :smallwink:

EDIT: My anime credentials

http://www.anime-planet.com/images/users/signatures/shadzar.jpg (http://www.anime-planet.com/users/shadzar/forumsig)

Berserk Monk
2009-05-25, 09:04 PM
World of Synnibar (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target135.html)

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/synninbar.jpg

WHAT?!?!?!?!

Gaiyamato
2009-05-25, 09:27 PM
World of Synnibar (http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/target135.html)

Also, I think Rifts deserves at least an honourable mention here. Where your party can plausibly consist of a mirror-finished unstoppable tank-man, a manic-depressive supersoldier with an irrational fear of spinach, a psychic velociraptor with an ancient runesword, and a fry cook with a handgun.

I have to agree. Probably not the most over-the-top game ever but certain has the potential for it.
Also if two or more characters co-operate with generating starting characters they can start with giant dimensional jumping star-ships and entire armies.
Magic users who can crush entire suns and demi-god super heroes who can face whole armies, crush them, stuff their corpses with straw and animate them all before breakfast.

Of course you can also have some really pathetic characters, and if your GM adds the optional 5% rule you die faster than you can roll the dice. lol.

I recall a battle between two level 1 PC's that saw over a billion heavy ion cannon and Naruni ship-mounted heavy plasma cannon rounds being launched in a single round. Wasted the countryside, destroyed the mechas and ships and killed each other simultaneously.
I think there was nearly a trillion MDC dealt in total. lol.

:D

elliott20
2009-05-25, 09:39 PM
d20 is over the top because after level 5, your PCs are routinely outstripping world class Olympians, scientists, and artisans in their own fields.

Wushu is over the top because it encourages your character to do the CRAZIEST and most INSANE stunt you can think of to help you gain more points.

Spirits of the Century is over the top because of the sheer flexibility that aspects can give you for overcoming some obscene obstacles.

GURPS is... surprisingly tame in terms of breaking reality. (It still can, but you need to be on the higher end of the power scale before that happens and the game usually starts getting kinda clunky by that point)

Nobilis is over the top because you're not playing just a single character, but the founding of a civilization and in the creation mythos of a universe. (if you have a long term group, it's a great way to generate the universe playing this game first, and then playing another system using the universe you just generated through your Nobilis campaign)

Yahzi
2009-05-25, 09:47 PM
Rifts .
That's what I was gonna say.

Blackjackg
2009-05-25, 10:34 PM
d20 is over the top because after level 5, your PCs are routinely outstripping world class Olympians, scientists, and artisans in their own fields.

That's an Exalted character at CharGen. And he'd be doing all three at the same time. While procreating.

Haven
2009-05-25, 10:38 PM
(if you have a long term group, it's a great way to generate the universe playing this game first, and then playing another system using the universe you just generated through your Nobilis campaign)

Now that is a neat idea. I want to join a group doing that and then become a paladin of my Nobilis character.

elliott20
2009-05-25, 10:41 PM
That's an Exalted character at CharGen. And he'd be doing all three at the same time. While procreating.

clearly, you're playing exalted right then.


Now that is a neat idea. I want to join a group doing that and then become a paladin of my Nobilis character.

that's what I was hoping to do with one of my last groups. but our attendance record is to spotty to be able to reliably make this work out. (I was in a group where most of us had families, which really cuts into our gaming time) A Nobilis campaign though, can be played out in maybe what... 5 sessions or so? maybe less.

Ninetail
2009-05-25, 11:23 PM
Yeah, Nobilis. Nothing else I've seen even comes close. You are, for all intents and purposes, a god. A living archetype, the very essence of a specific concept in human (or other) form. An essential part of reality itself.

And -- and this is the really amazing part -- you face challenges as threatening, puzzling, and diabolical as any you'd run into in a lower-powered game. There are things far enough above you that you're not even operating on their level. There are dangers and betrayals all around. There are things from somewhere outside of reality, and that want to destroy it... and that might just be the good guys in this story.

It's an utterly amazing game.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-26, 09:51 AM
While I don't think you intend to include the clearly mundane and non-supernatural characters in Death Note, I know there are plenty of anime that fits this, but how many non-Shonen manga would be able to be turned into an RPG? Clannad? Suzuka? Spicy Wolf? Hikaru no Go? Azumanga Diaoh? Mach-a-Go-Go? (Speed Racer for non-anime folk)


Both BESM and Maid RPG have rules that let you play games that don't focus on action, but rather character relations and everyday lives - and it's actually the closest to default way to play the latter.

shadzar
2009-05-26, 10:15 AM
Both BESM and Maid RPG have rules that let you play games that don't focus on action, but rather character relations and everyday lives - and it's actually the closest to default way to play the latter.

Therein lies a problem. I don't see D&D as being D&D without fighting things.

D&D has two integral parts.

Fighting stuff, and social interaction.

I like Spicy Wolf, but don't really want to play a game all about merchants as an RPG. I want some haggling and such in the game, but not all about it.

I don't really like story-teller type RPGs, because they are not really games. They are more like novels creation tools.

So removing the fighting and such removes a part of the game from an RPG.

So while social interaction is fun, it isn't something for the long term for me and isn't even clasified as a game.

On the other side, all fighting games are best suited for computers and board/war games rathern than an RPG.

So you need both to have an RPG, or otherwise it just isn't an RPG, and no matter how over-the-top it can be really doesn't matter since it isn't and RPG. :smallwink:

Kylarra
2009-05-26, 12:21 PM
So basically because all your RPGs must have fighting in them, the only anime that can be converted to RPG are over-the-top. That's a rather myopic, if understandable, way to view gaming.

Optimystik
2009-05-26, 12:23 PM
Diablo. You solo Satan! Three times! And you even get to kill his brothers!

Oh wait, were we just talking tabletop?

shadzar
2009-05-26, 12:47 PM
So basically because all your RPGs must have fighting in them, the only anime that can be converted to RPG are over-the-top. That's a rather myopic, if understandable, way to view gaming.

Assuming you mean me....

I said there are a few anime that would make good RPGs and have fighting without being over-the-top. Moribito comes to mind right away. Peace Maker, Tactics, and a few other come to mind that wouldn't be totally over-the-top but are nothing more than period pieces with no true self to them outside of the characters in them.

So if you are going to make an Edo period RPG, it doesn't have to be derived from any anime.

The only ones that WERE converted to d20 RPG's were the over-the-top anime. Bleach, Naruto, Trigun, etc. Those big name properties that were big because they were over-the-top, and thus had to match the same in RPG form.

James the Dark
2009-05-26, 09:03 PM
I have to chime in for Scion as well. Exalted does have you get a ridiculous amount of dice with which to throw, but Scion bypasses that and gives you automatic successes. That means for most things, at higher levels, it is an unrolled action to rip a skyscaper out of the ground, a roll isn't strictly needed to hit a less evasive opponent, and an opponent so slower would probably be able to take the hit with maybe a few bashing damage resulting of it.
At higher levels, it is no longer a matter of using the environment to your advantage. It is a matter of making the environment based on your percieved advantage. You can create a planet ex nihilo, teleport to any place in the universe, spontaneously generate life itself, and even treat personal death as a minor inconvenience.

Of course, I'm somewhat biased, since I am rather enjoying myself in my game.

JMobius
2009-05-26, 09:20 PM
It really depends what sort of definition of the term we're using. Provided it is the levels of sheer power displayed, to the point of absurdity...


Yeah, Nobilis. Nothing else I've seen even comes close... It's an utterly amazing game.

I'll echo this sentiment. Not even Exalted begins to approach this game. For reference, immortality and invulnerability are relatively inexpensive gifts.

It is probably my favorite RPG of all time, a sentiment echoed by many familiar with it. Interestingly enough, though, a survey I read recently suggests that the game is more admired than actually played. Fancy that.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 09:44 PM
Warning: Images
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/Flib/exalted.jpg
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/7/19/633521081638555555-exaltednowavailableinschoolgirl.jpg
http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/Motivators/JohnExaltedModern.jpg
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/7/15/633517249793241445-exalted-combat---this-might-take-100-dice-but-its-going-to-end-in-awesome---motivational.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/Heliomance/level20.jpg

elliott20
2009-05-26, 09:45 PM
Yeah, Nobilis. Nothing else I've seen even comes close. You are, for all intents and purposes, a god. A living archetype, the very essence of a specific concept in human (or other) form. An essential part of reality itself.

And -- and this is the really amazing part -- you face challenges as threatening, puzzling, and diabolical as any you'd run into in a lower-powered game. There are things far enough above you that you're not even operating on their level. There are dangers and betrayals all around. There are things from somewhere outside of reality, and that want to destroy it... and that might just be the good guys in this story.

It's an utterly amazing game.
great, now I REALLY want to find a group that runs Nobilis just so I can get my fix.

I can understand what you mean though, JMobius. The game does run on a very... I won't say "awkward", but just on a different axiom than does most games. As such, the learning curve is definitely going to be there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-26, 11:27 PM
Is there a d20 adaptation of Tenga Tropa Gurren Lagan? Because that would qualify.

RTGoodman
2009-05-26, 11:43 PM
Interestingly enough, though, a survey I read recently suggests that the game is more admired than actually played. Fancy that.

I definitely believe that. It's probably because it's such a... different game. I mean, I've read through the book a few times and would LOVE to play it, but I don't think I know more than maybe one or two people I've ever gamed with that would say something other than "This is weird and stupid - lets play D&D/VtM/video games instead."

Vortling
2009-05-26, 11:48 PM
I concur with the Rifts sentiment. I've yet to play Exalted or any of the other mentioned god games.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-05-27, 12:53 AM
Based on the OP's desire for Power, Exalted is probably #1, with Scion at #2. Both games deal with god-like characters - Exalted is notable because its mechanics take that concept and turn it up to 11.

RIFTS is, as far as ostensibly normal RPGs go, the most unintentionally over-the-top system. Glitterboys (http://games.sub-standard.com/Motivational%20Posters/Shadowrun-rifts-Btech/Rifts-glitterboy.jpg) are at the low end of this ridiculous spectrum. I mean, the game has Mega-Damage (MD), which is equal to 100 points of regular damage (think HP). A technician character has a tool that does 1d4 MD :smalltongue:

Aside from that, oWoD Mage or Ars Magica both have the potential for ludicrous power.

<_<
>_>

Bliss Stage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlissStage) - you shoot alien monstrosities with guns powered by Love :smalltongue:

elliott20
2009-05-27, 02:38 AM
Bliss Stage (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlissStage) - you shoot alien monstrosities with guns powered by Love :smalltongue:
dear god, that... that's just so beautiful I can't look away!

*gets lured onto train tracks and gets mangled into a pulp by an incoming train*

Jerthanis
2009-05-27, 05:12 AM
I have to chime in for Scion as well. Exalted does have you get a ridiculous amount of dice with which to throw, but Scion bypasses that and gives you automatic successes. That means for most things, at higher levels, it is an unrolled action to rip a skyscaper out of the ground, a roll isn't strictly needed to hit a less evasive opponent, and an opponent so slower would probably be able to take the hit with maybe a few bashing damage resulting of it.
At higher levels, it is no longer a matter of using the environment to your advantage. It is a matter of making the environment based on your percieved advantage. You can create a planet ex nihilo, teleport to any place in the universe, spontaneously generate life itself, and even treat personal death as a minor inconvenience.

Of course, I'm somewhat biased, since I am rather enjoying myself in my game.

Scion is awesome, but Exalted has as an option for starting characters to say, "Nuh-uh, I had my forcefield up" to pretty much anything and everything.

A being with ultimate power over life and death, who can kill you simply by thinking you dead with a half second's concentration will fail to kill you because you dodged out of the way. Of his thought. Even though that doesn't make any sense. The Universe Itself can collapse around you, exploding in a fiery nova of 10,000 suns, and you can parry it and take no damage. (Although you may have to find a way to survive in whatever is left, although there are charms for that too)

Although... Quantum 10 Novas in Aberrant can pretty much kill any number of Essence 10 Exalts just because their Quantum Bolts can fire so many times in one round. Also, significantly before Quantum 10, you can birth universes or other planes of existence with your mind.

So, I vote Exalted for starting characters, Aberrant for Longterm.

Antacid
2009-05-27, 05:31 AM
This is what I would call over-the-top. Actually, even without taking into account this sort of extreme examples, i find 4E quite dull with its MMO-inspired player roles and its unorginal special powers universally and uniformally distributed between the different classes.

Not to turn this into an edition war, but that's basically the point. The idea is to provide a way to do tactical fantasy combat that doesn't completely detract attention from relatable roleplaying. One you get past the rather silly power descriptions it's the last RPG that should be called over-the-top.

Exalted may let you level mountains, but does that actually help the game when you're trying to do anything other than mountain-levelling? Is a character who can level mountains more fun to roleplay than a guy who has a bad relationship with his father (or some other non-rules defined conflict) and is trying to defeat a non-uber-powered villain? Opinions differ.

FatR
2009-05-27, 06:04 AM
Exalted is not even close to being the most over the top. The setting expects you do be about as badass as Achilles, at best. Because you're supposed to care about armies of mortals and stuff. You can do better with major twinkery, but you will still be not be able to do anything nearly as impressive as deeds of Heroquest characters, mentioned in this thread, at anywhere close to starting level. You can beat up gods... because 99% of gods in this world are minor entities, who aren't even immune to things that unpowered mortals can do. You are not even close to major superheroes or main cast from Bleach/DBZ. (Then the game puts you against BBEGs who actually are close to DBZ power level, so your role in the setting amounts to being their bitch/window dressing, unless GM scales the threat level down by a lot - in fact, the core books say flat out that you must hide and keep a low profile even as a strongest character type in the game).

Of those systems I know the most over-the-top are:
1)Mutants and Masterminds. At high end of PL scale you can easily humble the stronger versions of Superman, blow up galaxies and otherwise be uber-awesome. (This probably applies to most superhero systems, GURPS Supers allows you to literally exterminate all life within the radius of the known Universe in a single action, if you optimize your character enough.)
2)Scion. Aside from the fact, that the rules are utterly broken and unusable, it very easily allows you to throw around mountains, run around the Earh in a few actions and otherwise be ridiculously powerful.
3)DnD 3.X. In sheer power and awesomeness of abilities, you can potentially outmatch characters from Scion. However, this actually requires serious optimization, as opposed to just slapping together a character you like. But even without optimization, you still are fully expected to do thinks comparable to taking a tank shell to the chest, ignoring it and cleaving the offending tank in half with your Sword of Asskicking.
4)Exalted. See above. Potentially, you can build insanely strong characters in this system, but this requires ruthless optimization and exploiting various system artifacts. Visual over-the-topness is mostly achievable at the price of horrible mechanical suckage.

mcv
2009-05-27, 07:11 AM
While basic GURPS is pretty mild and realistic, there was this GURPS Mage: the Ascension in Medieval setting campaign where I accidentally destroyed the world.

I honestly didn't mean to, but while digging my way through a volcano (the rest of the group was at the other side), I found the source of the weirdness that surrounded us in the central shaft. I thought destroying it would solve the problem, but it turns out I only destroyed the shell that kept it (somewhat) in check.

mostlyharmful
2009-05-27, 08:04 AM
I once had a lot of fun running around as a warlock in the Buffy-verse game, very very very loose casting system that if you use you are either craptastic or have a more broken version of epic spellcasting from character creation.

Also OWoD Mage for the totally openended fun available through sphere exploitation (spirit I'm looking at you...)

Tengu_temp
2009-05-27, 08:56 AM
On Exalted's power level - I mostly see two stances on this, both incorrect.
Stance 1, represented by quite a lot of people, insists that a starting Exalted character popped out right from Dragonball Z (a setting where, keep in mind, blowing up planets really is nothing special) and can juggle mountains while having sex with your mom at the same time. This is blatantly false - a starting Solar character is more in line with a typical mythical hero with more obvious superpowers, and then slowly grows in power from that point - way above mortals, but not omnipotent. One has to wonder have these people actually read the rulebook, or have they simply heard about Exalted on the net.
Stance 2, represented mostly by FatR, insists that Exalted characters are pretty weak and will never really accomplish anything heroic, especially since most of the important demons/fae folk/etc in the world are actually at much higher, epic power level. This one is not true as well - just like in DND a level 1 party will not fight a dragon and except to win, in Exalted a starting party will not challenge the Mask of Winters. Once they have grown in experience, however, they can fight such powerful individuals - it will probably be a hard battle, but they have a chance to win it (especially with good tactics), and what's heroic in fighting a battle you know you'll surely win? As for general Solar power level, not in comparison to other creatures in Exalted, bear in mind that rolling 5 successes, a feat easy to accomplish by even a starting character, means you did something that would probably be impossible in real life. And that's even before charms go into play.

In general, I think the setting that reflects starting/low experience (essence 2-3) Exalted game best is Fate/Stay Night. Coincidentally, it's also Mythical Heroes With More Obvious Superpowers.

JMobius
2009-05-27, 11:03 AM
great, now I REALLY want to find a group that runs Nobilis just so I can get my fix.

I can understand what you mean though, JMobius. The game does run on a very... I won't say "awkward", but just on a different axiom than does most games. As such, the learning curve is definitely going to be there.

I ran a PBP game of Nobilis on here once. It was going pretty well for a while, but sort of died a quiet death after losing a critical player and me recognizing my GMing style really isn't well suited to the game and the players I had to work with.

Just saying... if there's many other Nobilis lovers here, we should try it again. We'll show these folk who think Exalted is untoppable what's what. :smallwink:

FatR
2009-05-27, 11:27 AM
This one is not true as well - just like in DND a level 1 party will not fight a dragon and except to win, in Exalted a starting party will not challenge the Mask of Winters. Once they have grown in experience, however, they can fight such powerful individuals - it will probably be a hard battle, but they have a chance to win it (especially with good tactics),
There is a problem with this comparison. In DnD 3.X, going from level 1 to 20 is supposed to take about one year of real time (assuming weekly gaming). My experience of running published adventures confirms that such expectations are realistic. Do you know how long you must play Exalted (again, weekly game sessions, XP rewards by-the-book) before you even start having something resembling a chance against a Deathlord, assuming that five combat monster PCs and a lot of powerful allies gangbang said Deathlord at once, he has no high-Essence Charms, except those specifically described in his writeup, but those powers that he has are used at their full capacity? (See some examples of what I'm talking about here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=454676 ).
My estimation points at 2+ years. Which is also confirmed by my actual games, where PCs (admittedly forced to diversify their abilities widely, thanks to playing in small groups or solo) demonstrated that you can play for six months and grow in power only marginally or play for 1.5 years and still less than double your potential in key areas. As most campaigns don't even last that long, I can only conclude that Exalted BBEGs are essentially unbeatable for most groups, unless GM depowers them (explicitly, or by not using their abilties to anywhere near their real potential).

Tengu_temp
2009-05-27, 11:33 AM
Isn't high-power combat in Exalted mostly about attrition war, where the one who runs out of Essence loses? And PCs have a big advantage here, because unlike NPCs they can regenerate their Essence in combat via stunts.

EDIT: I'm reading the thread, and so far the only people who claim MoW is unbeatable also assume he uses stinky cheese, like Glorious Solar Saber with all points put into Defense or combos/charms he doesn't have on his stat block.

FatR
2009-05-27, 11:45 AM
In 2E he has "All Solar Charms" on his statblock. All Solar Charms. Compare and contrast even with his 1E writeup. The Abyssals book empowered him even further, with non-Charm perfect and all Abyssal Charms, among other things. Next to complicated Combos (involving Charms from the newest fatsplat, etc) brought as a way of combatting him, basic stuff, like shifting points on Glorious Solar Saber is not and cannot ever be considered cheese.

Jerthanis
2009-05-27, 03:54 PM
This is blatantly false - a starting Solar character is more in line with a typical mythical hero with more obvious superpowers, and then slowly grows in power from that point - way above mortals, but not omnipotent.

True, but I consider the fact that a starting Solar can hit anything and block anything to kind of push up its "over the top" nature beyond what you can otherwise claim. Sure, a Scion can (at demigod or god level, significantly after Hero character creation) tear up buildings and use them as weapons, which Solars can't really do without... shall we say extremely specific builds, when the late-game Scion uses all his most powerful abilities at the Solar, the out-of-box Solar just says, "No", and when the AC 170 tank in D&D walks up, the "level 1" Solar can hit him.

I'm claiming Exalted is over-the-top because it doesn't matter what you compare it to, Exalted already "called" the ability to use "Infinity Plus One" mechanics.


My estimation points at 2+ years. Which is also confirmed by my actual games, where PCs (admittedly forced to diversify their abilities widely, thanks to playing in small groups or solo) demonstrated that you can play for six months and grow in power only marginally or play for 1.5 years and still less than double your potential in key areas. As most campaigns don't even last that long, I can only conclude that Exalted BBEGs are essentially unbeatable for most groups, unless GM depowers them (explicitly, or by not using their abilties to anywhere near their real potential).

What's wrong with this though? I had an Exalted Chronicle going a while back that, due to losing a key player, we felt like we had to wrap it up sooner rather than later, and that resulted in forcing me to trigger the climax, which was a battle with a Deathlord. I had to scale his powers back so the PCs could win, but I didn't take away TOO much. I simply justified it by saying he had the Conviction Flaw of Invulnerability, and his confidence had been shaken by pre-final-battle situations and dramatic revelations.

Kylarra
2009-05-27, 04:01 PM
The perfect defense charms from Exalted do pretty much push them over-the-top no matter what you throw against them, amusingly enough.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-27, 04:08 PM
For example, Godspear of the Five-Metal Shrike, which destroys anything in ten yards and deals 100L of damage to anything in a mile, which is equal to 1000d6 D&D damage at that level.

You can simply say "I get out of the way" as a starting character. OK, you spend Essence and Willpower, but still, you can dodge something which annihilates everything in a mile radius as a starting character.

And it is unpreventable except by a single charm.

Sorry, no matter how much power over a word or concept you have, a Solar can dodge it.

NeoVid
2009-05-27, 06:32 PM
I'm surprised at the lack of mentions of Feng Shui in this thread. The game is designed so that you can have the characters from Crouching Tiger, Fistful of Dollars, and the Terminator fighting an army of cyborg gorillas as the introduction to the first session.

Talya
2009-05-27, 07:01 PM
From what I heard, the game pretty much consists of playing an inexplicably humanoid cosmic being who makes magic thanks to his ridiculously-named secret ancestral martial art skills and can beat gods singlehandedly. You're a Good Guy, and your perpetual goal is to become even stronger to beat even more ridiculously powerful villains. Here's a probable exemple of (low-level and somewhat unsubtle) Exalted character (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/31/11740-ssj3_goku_super.jpg).

This is what I would call over-the-top. Actually, even without taking into account this sort of extreme examples, i find 4E quite dull with its MMO-inspired player roles and its unorginal special powers universally and uniformally distributed between the different classes.


Ah, and some of them have sex with animals, too.

This does Exalted a disservice. The plot and setting of Exalted is wonderful, and explains the power of the Exalt perfectly. You are the deposed Lords of Creation, and your power, while spectacular, is not infinite, nor unmatched. For every good the servants of the Unconquered Sun manage to perform, there is evil to match; some from without, the most insidious though from within your own hearts.

Exalted is superb.

Crowbar
2009-05-28, 06:10 AM
So far, Shadowrun 4E is the most over-the-top game I've played. One of my players is a vampire street samurai who gets three attacks per round and has yet to Awaken as an adept, so that's fun. Another is a troll adept who can reach dragon-levels of Strength thanks to his powers. Then there's the guy who stole a gorram chopper from Ares Macrotechnology and can turn into a dragon at will.

Naturally, things get a little intense.

Ninetail
2009-05-28, 09:18 AM
I definitely believe that. It's probably because it's such a... different game. I mean, I've read through the book a few times and would LOVE to play it, but I don't think I know more than maybe one or two people I've ever gamed with that would say something other than "This is weird and stupid - lets play D&D/VtM/video games instead."

Yeah, I don't get to play Nobilis nearly as often as I'd like to. It definitely requires a bit of a different outlook than most of the popular RPGs do. Not only are the important conflicts mostly on a non-combat level, but the setting, the characters, the background are just plain weird, and it can be pretty hard to wrap your head around a Noble.

But I love the game anyway.

kyuubigan
2009-06-25, 04:42 PM
Tales From the Floating Vagabond.

The highest damage rating for a weapon was "Don't point that at my planet."

Our first session we literally crashed the party in one of the Indiana Jones movies, and one of my buddies managed to avoid being killed by calling his character's lawyer to argue with the GM.

Good times.

Swordguy
2009-06-25, 07:20 PM
I'd have to go with one of the following:

The World of Synnibar
RIFTS (with ALL the books in play, it's like Synnbar that's actually somewhat playable)
Tales of the Floating Vagabond
TOON


Don't get me wrong, Exalted fans - Exalted's pretty OOT, but not in the same league as these. That said, it's far more playable than most of them, so you've got that going for you. Ditto with stuff like Amber Diceless or Feng Shui. They CAN be OTT based on GM and specific character concepts...but they aren't inherently as insane as these games.

My choice would be either The World of Synnibar or TOON, depending on the GM and the group involved.

EDIT: Note that FATAL isn't OTT, it's just bad. I've played it. I know.

mikeejimbo
2009-06-25, 07:44 PM
The one & only answer is F.A.T.A.L. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.T.A.L._(roleplaying_game)) :smallbiggrin:

Over-the-Top? Yes.

Good & fun? Uh, no. Good god, no.

Of course FATAL was designed to be over the top. I still think it's a parody more than it is a game.

But yes, this is the only correct answer.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-25, 07:56 PM
EDIT: Note that FATAL isn't OTT, it's just bad. I've played it. I know.

Why? WHYYY?

Also, how? I can't imagine anyone successfully completing any action in that game. Or even character generation. (Can I ask what your character's anal circumference was, and whether that information was needed - or changed - during play?)

Edit: And is that too personal? :smalleek:

wykydtron
2009-06-25, 08:43 PM
The one & only answer is F.A.T.A.L. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.T.A.L._(roleplaying_game)) :smallbiggrin:

Over-the-Top? Yes.

Good & fun? Uh, no. Good god, no.

I just read the review for fatal and the many, many comments about it. Do you know where I could find a copy of it? Google hasn't giving me anything so far.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-25, 09:32 PM
I just read the review for fatal and the many, many comments about it. Do you know where I could find a copy of it? Google hasn't giving me anything so far.Google has standards. They'll link to the best of /b/, but FATAL...that's just not right.

wykydtron
2009-06-25, 11:20 PM
Google has standards. They'll link to the best of /b/, but FATAL...that's just not right.

Hahaha, that's true enough.

Swordguy
2009-06-25, 11:26 PM
I just read the review for fatal and the many, many comments about it. Do you know where I could find a copy of it? Google hasn't giving me anything so far.

You don't want it. No, really. You DON'T.




Why? WHYYY?

Also, how? I can't imagine anyone successfully completing any action in that game. Or even character generation.


We tried it because we were between games, we have an exceptionally mature group, and because we refuse to condemn something without trying it out. It was playable - barely - and we didn't go in for actually using all the sex-based stuff (our group, for example isn't a group of latent rapists that I know of). It's not really more complicated than Rolemaster - if you ca play that, you can play this; the charts just take a little longer to reference. I'm glad we tried it, simply because I CAN speak from experience when discussing it. But it wasn't an enjoyable game, nor an enjoyable gaming experience, even without taking into account all the stuff people seem to *squick* over.*


*You know the story about the Dutch kid with his finger in the dike, holding back the sea? Once you've done that with somebody's intestines, your "squick" threshold goes way down. I can't imagine an action in an imaginary game that's going to really perturb me. And I'm the poorer for it. :smallfrown:

mistformsquirrl
2009-06-25, 11:37 PM
Another vote for Exalted and Scion here. Haven't gotten to play either yet (though I actually rather want to <,<); but just looking at the rulebooks...

Well I mean, if I'm remembering right, when Exalted talks about character creation, they tell you "Pick a goal. No bigger. You don't want to save your town or your region... think big - think nation or kingdom, or even bigger." (There were other examples too)

I like the idea of an RPG designed to just let you utterly cut loose. I mean, it can be fun being the underdog (Shadowrun, Call of Cthulu come to mind... low level D&D 3.5e and before also can be rather lethal, old World of Darkness (Haven't looked at new yet)) - but there's other times where punching a guy through a mountain feels *really* good <._.>

*sigh* I gotta borrow that book again sometime (or just buy it, but that requires me getting cash lol)

Audious
2009-06-25, 11:51 PM
octaNe.

'Nuff said.

TSED
2009-06-26, 02:32 AM
octaNe.

'Nuff said.

No, that is not enough said.

I've never heard of that.

bosssmiley
2009-06-26, 04:34 AM
octaNe.

'Nuff said.

Wasn't that the post-apoc' psychobilly game? Or did that setting just share a system with it?

Swordguy beat me to mention of Synnibar, RIFTs and Feng Shui. But is there no love for the BECMI Immortals box or Tom Moldvay's Lords of Creation? You play gods FPS!

Cthulhutech is pretty OTT in its own right. Great Old Ones vs. Mecha? That'll keep the Kitchen Sink Coalition (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2009/01/transcript-from-rpg-world-congress.html) ("MOAR lasers!") happy.

Swordguy
2009-06-26, 05:07 AM
Wasn't that the post-apoc' psychobilly game? Or did that setting just share a system with it?

Swordguy beat me to mention of Synnibar, RIFTs and Feng Shui. But is there no love for the BECMI Immortals box or Tom Moldvay's Lords of Creation? You play gods FPS!

Cthulhutech is pretty OTT in its own right. Great Old Ones vs. Mecha? That'll keep the Kitchen Sink Coalition (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2009/01/transcript-from-rpg-world-congress.html) ("MOAR lasers!") happy.

Oh, ouch. I completely forgot about Lords of Creation. It's not so much "kitchen sink" as Synnibar or RIFTS, but the power level is absolutely through the roof. Wierdest game Avalon Hill ever put out.

And I feel actively bad for not thinking about CthulhuTech. I was briefly on the CGL factchecking team after Wildfire sent it in for publishing for it before "real" job conflicts got in the way... :smallredface:

AngelOmnipotent
2009-06-26, 08:58 AM
Anything Cthulhu based.

Nothing beats going insane from reading a book and killing the rest of your party while eating your own arm.

Indon
2009-06-26, 04:14 PM
Wonder why I thought it started with an F.

Fist of the North Star features martial arts which can be used to explode people's heads.

This is considered entry-level martial arts for Exalts.


So, I vote Exalted for starting characters, Aberrant for Longterm.

Mid-power Solars can create from nothing as well, though they have to work relatively slowly (and, preferably, carefully).


Isn't high-power combat in Exalted mostly about attrition war, where the one who runs out of Essence loses? And PCs have a big advantage here, because unlike NPCs they can regenerate their Essence in combat via stunts.

NPCs can perform stunts, though it's recommended that the GM be more sparing in NPC stuntage because it's easy to look biased towards the NPC characters, and the game's about making the players look badass anyway.

In the case of Mask of Winters, it's entirely appropriate for him to occasionally invoke stunts.

For more information on Exalted over-the-topness, I give you: webcomic! (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html) (a quick look at the action for those unwilling to read an entire webcomic (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0165.html) - note that every character depicted on that page is some form of Exalt)

By 'over the top', do we mean simple power level, or creative absurdity? Exalted isn't the most powerful thing out there, but it's pretty high on the creative absurdity.

FoE
2009-06-26, 06:10 PM
Rifts. Glitterboys and Mexican vampires and Four Horsemen, oh my!

Nazi analogues and dragons and juicers, oh my!

FatR
2009-06-26, 06:25 PM
For example, Godspear of the Five-Metal Shrike, which destroys anything in ten yards and deals 100L of damage to anything in a mile, which is equal to 1000d6 D&D damage at that level.
It is equivalent to 200 HP of damage. At most.


You can simply say "I get out of the way" as a starting character. OK, you spend Essence and Willpower, but still, you can dodge something which annihilates everything in a mile radius as a starting character.
And yet magic missiles plink you to death.


And it is unpreventable except by a single charm.
Sorry, no matter how much power over a word or concept you have, a Solar can dodge it.
As long as he has juice. Which runs out rather fast against opponents with decent attack rate ("decent" means about 1-2 attacks per second in Exalted, not stuff that any superspeed user can pull off).
But most importantly, you must dodge everything in this way. Except maybe attacks from unpowered mooks. Or you die. Because you're damn fragile.

Seriously, in which way using your mana as your HPs is over the top? It actually discourages you from doing cool stuff. Because doing anything else with your mana increases your chances of dying. All it does otherwise is making Exalted unfit to emulate visual imagery of the most of supposed sources inspirations by making big attacks the non-option and attack spam the king.

FatR
2009-06-26, 06:37 PM
This does Exalted a disservice. The plot and setting of Exalted is wonderful, and explains the power of the Exalt perfectly. You are the deposed Lords of Creation, and your power, while spectacular, is not infinite, nor unmatched.
Actually, you are little bitches that's explicitly destined to fail. In mechanical terms, you can put every Solar in the Creation in one room with a Deathlord, and said Deathlord will crush them all like pathetic insects in a single action. With published Charms only. And there are 13 Deathlords, never mind other similarly strong people who hate you and wish you to die.

Yes, this sucks. No, I'm not advocating running Exalted (or any other game) in this manner. Yes, that's what the actual books actually suggest.

warrl
2009-06-26, 07:04 PM
The two most over-the-top games I've played for pure deliberate cultivated silliness are "Tales from the Floating Vagabond" and "Orcs".

(Double checking the name of the latter. Can't find anything about it, so I may have the wrong species. You can roll up a complete new character in about a minute, which is good because you're expected to need to about every ten minutes.)

FatR
2009-06-26, 07:08 PM
What's wrong with this though? I had an Exalted Chronicle going a while back that, due to losing a key player, we felt like we had to wrap it up sooner rather than later, and that resulted in forcing me to trigger the climax, which was a battle with a Deathlord. I had to scale his powers back so the PCs could win, but I didn't take away TOO much. I simply justified it by saying he had the Conviction Flaw of Invulnerability, and his confidence had been shaken by pre-final-battle situations and dramatic revelations.
Uh... Taking away perfect defenses is an equivalent of using kryptonite against Superman. Never mind that by their writeups each Deatlord has a minimum of six or so different perfects, to which they can assign different Flaws, just in case.

Now, note, that I fully agree with your way of GMing this situation and giving PCs a chance to win, because Deathlords as written are practically unkillable. Unfortunately, making them practically unkillable seems to be fully intentional. Authors clearly work under assumption that PCs aren't supposed to win against their Uber-NPCs (including Deathlords, Siddies, powerful gods, Yozis, First Age rulers, etc). In anything. Ever. If stats of said Uber-NPCs seem to have some weaknesses that theoretically allow them to be defeated, the authors repeatedly boost said stats (see Deathlords again - every single freaking book since 1E core that featured statblocks or descriptions of powers for them, made them significantly stronger; and this applies to all elder-level NPCs, Deathlords just give the most numerous examples).

Add to this stunted XP progression, that makes characters grow in power slowly (while DnD characters start far behind Exalted after one year of weekly gaming they will invariably be far above even Solars - assuming that they can survive appropriate challenges at level 20, of course) and things start to look ridiculous. Unless you optimize perfectly, you can play for 1.5 years and still be unworthy of polishing the boots of real movers and shakers, as they're written. This, by the way, is what actually happened in my longest campaign. And this is freaking unacceptable. DnD 3.X models fantasy epic strictly better.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-26, 08:44 PM
Frankly, FatR, I stopped reading your arguments about mechanics of Exalted once you said that using Glorious Solar Saber with all stats put into defense in off-hand is not an exploit, but a perfectly acceptable and commonly used combat tactic. If both the players and DM use exploits on everyday basis, then an Exalted game will obviously be very unbalanced, just like every other system will.

Indon
2009-06-26, 10:19 PM
Add to this stunted XP progression, that makes characters grow in power slowly (while DnD characters start far behind Exalted after one year of weekly gaming they will invariably be far above even Solars - assuming that they can survive appropriate challenges at level 20, of course) and things start to look ridiculous. Unless you optimize perfectly, you can play for 1.5 years and still be unworthy of polishing the boots of real movers and shakers, as they're written. This, by the way, is what actually happened in my longest campaign. And this is freaking unacceptable. DnD 3.X models fantasy epic strictly better.

There's nothing wrong with the setting assuming the players need to get creative towards accomplishing their goals - anything less, really, wouldn't be as epic.

I mean, the game offers several documented options to essentially modify the entirety of reality in such a way as to nullify the hugest of mechanical advantages, and implies that Solars (and Sidereals) have access to making even more.

The Primordials were more powerful than the Incarnae - the Exalted didn't just win by numbers, they won by being clever about things, of which numbers were one aspect.

ResplendentFire
2009-06-26, 11:25 PM
Exalted is not anime, it's wuxia. There is a large difference between shonen anime and wuxia (for one, wuxia is often more serious).

Looking at Exalted, it looks like it has elements of fantasy (and mecha, and sentai) anime, as well as elements of wuxia, the Old Testament, the Iliad, Journey to the West, and the Book of the Dun Cow.

Fhaolan
2009-06-27, 01:42 AM
Amber was mentioned in this thread already,but I have to put another vote on it. You're playing a character to whom Gods are considered to be pale reflection of, and you're considered to be a weakling of your own race. The most pitiful member of that race can create and destroy entire multiverses when they get bored. Yeah, that's a bit over the top.

Then there's Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth. You don't play a single character, but a series of characters in order to define an entire culture, mythology, etc.

Synnabar has been mentioned. I've dealt with the author, and he's amusing to listen to because he honestly *believes* he's produced the most realistic game ever... with nuclear-powered nunchucks and laser-eyed bears.

GURPs technically has the potential to be over-the-top, but the system tends to break down at that kind of level. It has difficulties with superhero games, at least with the editions I tried it with. Dispite the weird stuff in it, it lends itself better to the grittier games that are the exact opposite of over-the-top.

FatR
2009-06-27, 03:44 AM
Frankly, FatR, I stopped reading your arguments about mechanics of Exalted once you said that using Glorious Solar Saber with all stats put into defense in off-hand is not an exploit, but a perfectly acceptable and commonly used combat tactic. If both the players and DM use exploits on everyday basis, then an Exalted game will obviously be very unbalanced, just like every other system will.
An "exlploit" is using RAW to subvert RAI, i.e. employing an ability that has examples of use like granting +2 to Dex to grant Alter Reality. The whole freaking point of GSS that makes it worth buying using is shifting weapon stats around. It is explicitly intended to be used this way. How the hell this is an epxloit?
Also, Exalted game run this way is not unbalanced. In fact, it is so balanced that you can calculate outcomes of fights beforehand. It is just completely repetitive and boring. And there are only three alternatives to this way: never encountering threatening opposition, heavy GM fudging in PCs favor, or generating new characters regularly. Many attempts to run DB games in 2E proved to me without a shadow of doubt, that characters in this system are not survivable without Solar-level paranoia combos, even if I go incredibly easy on PCs. Almost any opponent than has a non-insignificant chance to do HL damage, can kill a PC by accident. And this is the world without resurrection or oWoD ways of not dying after Incap.

FatR
2009-06-27, 04:10 AM
There's nothing wrong with the setting assuming the players need to get creative towards accomplishing their goals - anything less, really, wouldn't be as epic.
No. There is everything wrong of making characters less mechanically capable to challenge the status quo that they were in oWoD, then marketing the game as if it offers PCs a chance to be important. Yeah, in this game you can conquer Middle Nowhere (unless Siddies decide to assasinate you). Then the world dies and there is nothing you can do about it, except maybe running GM-invented fetch quests for McGuffins. You simply do not have the tools.


I mean, the game offers several documented options to essentially modify the entirety of reality in such a way as to nullify the hugest of mechanical advantages, and implies that Solars (and Sidereals) have access to making even more.
Examples? And first check this thread
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=454676
so that you would know what these advantages are and which ridiculous, unachievable in real play twinkery people who think that the most conservative versions of Deathlords are beatable propose as a way to beat them.

Tetsubo 57
2009-06-27, 04:35 AM
Yeah, World of Synnibarr gets my vote. Absolute insanity. And that's just the author...

Jerthanis
2009-06-27, 06:08 AM
Now, note, that I fully agree with your way of GMing this situation and giving PCs a chance to win, because Deathlords as written are practically unkillable. Unfortunately, making them practically unkillable seems to be fully intentional. Authors clearly work under assumption that PCs aren't supposed to win against their Uber-NPCs (including Deathlords, Siddies, powerful gods, Yozis, First Age rulers, etc). In anything. Ever. If stats of said Uber-NPCs seem to have some weaknesses that theoretically allow them to be defeated, the authors repeatedly boost said stats (see Deathlords again - every single freaking book since 1E core that featured statblocks or descriptions of powers for them, made them significantly stronger; and this applies to all elder-level NPCs, Deathlords just give the most numerous examples).

I'm afraid I can't understand your point. You agree that giving the PCs a chance to win is the correct way to run a game, yet you think all NPCs must by necessity be run in such a way that they can never be overcome, just because some authors somewhere decided to fill in every bubble on a character sheet and show it off to his players?

The stats given for Deathlords, or for that matter anything in the antagonists chapters of any of the books, are there for the convenience of the ST. If they're not useful for the ST, he can throw them out. If an ST wanted to tell a story about the slow building of power by the PCs, he could choose to use a Deathlord as the implacable foes detailed in the books. If the ST wanted to run an epic romance tale of a Beastman offspring of a Lunar with an enlightened essence falling in love with a cursed Abyssal enslaved to the First and Forsaken Lion, then the ST could endeavor to come up with FaFL stats that facilitate the game he wants to run.

In my opinion: I'm pretty sure by the numbers, the Mask of Winters with the Abyssal book upgrades could kill 99% of Creation if he did a one-ghost campaign against the living, even if all of the world dogpiled him all at once. And even if he lost, he'd just be knocked out for about a year before he could try again. Seeing as how he has done no such thing in several thousand years, I submit to you that his listed statistics are simply inaccurate.


Add to this stunted XP progression, that makes characters grow in power slowly (while DnD characters start far behind Exalted after one year of weekly gaming they will invariably be far above even Solars - assuming that they can survive appropriate challenges at level 20, of course) and things start to look ridiculous. Unless you optimize perfectly, you can play for 1.5 years and still be unworthy of polishing the boots of real movers and shakers, as they're written. This, by the way, is what actually happened in my longest campaign. And this is freaking unacceptable. DnD 3.X models fantasy epic strictly better.

Admittedly, Exalted's 4-5 exp per session, 3 per story is tragically slow, and I've been known to increase the rate in games I run. However, I argue that the "downtime XP rates" chart was never intended to be used as a benchmark for how many experience points NPCs have. My reasoning is this: a Dragonblood who is two centuries old will almost run out of things to spend experience on if you give him experience points by the chart.

So just because Chejop Kejack should have 14,236 experience points according to the chart doesn't mean you need to account for them all if you want to use him as an antagonist in your story.

But look, it's clear from your statements that you've run it several times and been dissatisfied with it, and that's kind of an unassailable position when it comes to personal taste.

Also, I've experienced nothing like your quoted D&D 1 year = 20 levels rate in any D&D game I've ever played. So I just take that as more proof that ultimately mileage varies very greatly between groups.

Gnaeus
2009-06-27, 07:08 AM
Amber was mentioned in this thread already,but I have to put another vote on it. You're playing a character to whom Gods are considered to be pale reflection of, and you're considered to be a weakling of your own race. The most pitiful member of that race can create and destroy entire multiverses when they get bored. Yeah, that's a bit over the top.

+1 for Amber. In addition to the mentioned universe creating, your characters are assumed to be stronger and faster than Olympic athletes, better trained in every weapon than the world's best soldiers, smarter than Nobel prize winning scientists, and have every imaginable skill that you think your character might have considered important enough to bother acquiring. and THEN you start spending character creation points.

FatR
2009-06-27, 05:01 PM
I'm afraid I can't understand your point. You agree that giving the PCs a chance to win is the correct way to run a game, yet you think all NPCs must by necessity be run in such a way that they can never be overcome, just because some authors somewhere decided to fill in every bubble on a character sheet and show it off to his players?

The stats given for Deathlords, or for that matter anything in the antagonists chapters of any of the books, are there for the convenience of the ST. If they're not useful for the ST, he can throw them out.
Oberoni fallacy, you know. The fact that I can throw them out, doesn't mean that they aren't s#$t and aren't seriously unsuited for any kind of game, that is not supposed to end with "...and then PCs lose". Also, writing NPCs for Exalted, particularly high-Essence ones, is a highly time-consuming chore. So the fact that I can do it myself brings me no consolation when I look at official NPCs and see that they are separated into total pushovers that will be steamrolled by anything that can actually survive this system, and invulnerable, mechanics-raping ubergods who make Elminster look modest, with very little middle ground. Stopping STing the freaking game or switching to a saner system, are way easier solutions, which I haven't taken yet only because my players are rather conservative (and the burden of compensating for the game's problems is not on them).

And if you ask, why I don't make supposedly hyper-intelligent NPCs behave like dumba$$es: first, running NPCs as if they were actually acting to win, within the limits of their information and capabilities is much more interesting; second, all of my players are intelligent enough to notice when I just allow them to win. Did you take a look at that excerpt from Keychain of Creation above, where an Essence 7 Exalt basically plays cat-and-mouse games with the main cast by letting them think that they have a chance? Unlike characters from there, most players are smart enough to realise, when they are being spared. They also tend to dislike this feeling.

Also, invulnerable setting luminaries piss me off in principle. Just in Exalted it is worse, because the game actually lies to you about PCs role in the setting, and they actually are invulnerable, as written. (In DnD blasting Elminster or even Asmodeus in the face is not much of a problem for level 17+ optimized characters; in oWoD almost anything below faceless and distant BBEGs can be killed by a surprise attack.)

I'm not saying that this just kills the game beyond all hope (I'm still running it, somehow, although I know at least one GM who dropped Exalted specifically because he hated inflation of power level and mechanical complications associated with high-Essence characters.) But I consider the lack of decently-written opposition for Celestial-level characters in the books a major flaw of the game.

And, to get back on topic and clarify, why I don't consider Exalted to be that much over-the-top. You see, in Exalted you really have only one truly impressive easy trick - perfect defences (and even then only if you consider them something other than mechanical abstractions - I don't remember people explicitly using them in fluff texts). Which you must use. Otherwise, you are very impressive by standards of normal humans, but by superheroic standards... basic stuff like flying, throwing houses around, flash-stepping and shooting energy attacks, as well as surviving harmful stuff that gets past your active defences, is rather hard and expensive to obtain and use. Therefore obtaining and using it generally screws your efficiency. So does performing flashy special moves in combat - the system actively encourages you to, instead, spam your basic attack over and over, and over again. In my experience, emulating stuff that you actually can see in comics/anime/whatever in Exalted system without destroying your combat efficiency tends to be quite hard. Want to be like Kenshiro (from above-mentioned Fist of the North Star)? Technically you can try, but the mechanics will sodomize your character for that, because unarmed and unarmored combatants suck by definition and supplementing attack with fatal status effects is, again by definition, a dangerous waste of your motes. So you can only hope that your GM will be willing to interpret head explosions as a result of doing normal damage. And so on. Compare to Scion, where, for all of its mechanicals flaws, hurling things to low orbit or running faster than sound is not a big deal and can be done without expending any resources you might desperately need elsewhere.

j4bberw0ck
2009-08-23, 04:12 AM
I know none of you will read this but i felt I needed to ad din my opinion after reading this. It is a reply mainly to everyone opinions of Exalted, while I am not sure if it is the most over the top rpg out there some of the arguments about intergalactic games and others of that manner are kind of null, just because your weapon is capable of destroying a planet, nothing says a solar exalt could not nullify said weapon with an artifact or spell or even the dreaded perfect dodge/parry/defense. The death lord argument is an interesting one, some one previously stated they are not meant to be beaten, which is true. The core rules book states that they are not meant to be beaten at all, in fact only one has been "killed" the reason I use quotes is because they aren't sure if its even dead, they do make a reference to there possibly being a way unique to destroy each death lord, but that theory is hypothetical and up to the gm. The reason the death lords posses so much power is because they are essential the original solar exalts reborn evil. Another point i would like to make is so far nearly everyone has focused on combat, while that is a large point of most rpgs, unlike nobilis and a few others, In exalted there is much more than combat , mainly the story and other such elements such as social actions and crafting which produce truly epic results. Also in response to the scion powers of spontaneously creating life and landmass look up the solar power wyld shaping technique for those of you with the means to do so, its a charm available at character creation through the right means that can do just that and more.