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MustacheFart
2009-05-25, 12:53 PM
Greetings,

My characters in an on-going campaign is retiring, at least for a while so, I came up with an idea for a new one. It's a guy who's very knowledgeable about various creatures who inhabit the land and he uses this knowledge to aid him in combat (ranger FE basically). He is pretty effective at range and in melee. His typical strategy is to get the jump on his enemy, unload on it from at range, and if said enemy should manage to get close, take it down with melee.

The party doesn't have a super beefy tank nor any ranged support at all, aside from a sorcerer who doesn't/won't play regularly. Therefore, I want to add said ranged support to the party and still be hardy enough to survive melee--not so squishy that I'm down after one round of melee. That said I am leaning away from rogue.

Also I found a nifty item in the Magic Item Compendium called The Greater Swordbow that I want to make use of. Basically, it has 2 forms: one is a +1 composite longbow (+4 str); and, the other is a +1 Greatsword. I can switch between forms at will, even between attacks. Also the weapon can be enhanced further. If I combined this with the Ancestral Relic feat, I am essentially able to acquire 2 Ancestral Relics instead of just 1.

Other important notes/requirements:
-Starting level is 8
-Starting gold for 8th level is 27,000gp
-All books allowed except ToB
-No psionics
-28 Point Buy

Right now what I am looking at is:

Human Scout 3 / Ranger 5 (TWF Combat Style)

Stats:

STR: 16 + 1(lvl 8) + 2 item = 19
DEX: 16 + 1(lvl 4) = 17
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 10 + 2 item = 12
CHA: 8

Feats:
(Flaw 1): Point Blank Shot
(Flaw 2): Rapid Shot
(Human Bonus): Many Shot
(1st level): Travel Devotion?
(3rd level): Ancestral Weapon
(6th level): Swift Hunter

Favored Enemies: Constructs and Undead

Weapons:

-Swordbow, Greater - +1 Comp. Longbow(str +4)/+1 Greatsword
-Bootblade - +1 Dagger

Attack/damage*:
Greatsword: +12, 2d6+7, 19-20/x2
Comp. Longbow: +11, 1d8+5, x3
Bootblade: +10, 1d4+5, 19-20/x2

Full Attack:
-Melee: +10(Greatsword)/+10(Bootblade)/+5(Greatsword)
-Ranged: +9/+9(rapid shot)/+4

*Damage doesn't include skirmish or point blank shot. With skirmish and point blank shot, damage increases by 2d6 (+1 for ranged).

So that's it so far. I'm not quite sure how to advance the build beyond level 8 as far as class levels/feats, aside from taking Greater Manyshot at level 9.

Any feedback and/or suggestions on my build would be great. I know I'd probably be better off using 2 weapons instead of a greatsword but I really like the idea of the greater swordbow. I figured throw in a boot blade and I can do both, right?

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help!

Quietus
2009-05-25, 12:58 PM
If you drop the TWF style, you can pick up archery, getting Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot for free. This would free up other feat slots for things like Power Attack and Leap Attack, letting you do a little more damage in melee with that greatsword. The higher damage from those will quickly overpower a 1d4+1/2 str+1, I'd think.

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 01:01 PM
An alternative to a Swordbow would be an Elvencraft Bow (RotW). Its the same, but doubles as a quarterstaff instead of a greatsword. This gives you the option of TWFing with both ends of the staff. Technically, all 3 parts have to be enchanted seperately, but technically its 1 item so you could probably get away with the AR rules for it.

Really, you should pick 1 style or the other, and try to stick with it as much as possible since diversifying will weaken both options and while Swift Hunters are decent, watering them down makes them less so...

Also, you don't qualify for Many Shot at that point due to BAB reqs.

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 01:07 PM
Just pick Power Attack to two-hand efficiently in melee; it's too bad ToB isn't allowed really, since without ToB you're pretty much limited to two-handing in melee if you want to be efficient (you don't really have the feats for TWF).

Focus the rest of your feats on archery. As for Travel Devotion, the Cloistered Cleric dip (pick Knowledge Devotion to truly nail home the "studies his enemies for weak points"-shtick) is more efficient simply because one use of it isn't going to get you very far, but Cloistered Cleric with Undeath-domain allows you to burn a ton of Turns to get 4-5 uses of it daily, which is already plentiful.


Manyshot requires BAB +6 and you'll get it from Ranger 6 anyways so I'd definitely skip it. Next level, you get Manyshot and can pick Greater Manyshot on the same level, if that's the path you want to go with Archery.

It's worth noting that Swift Hunter is almost a near-melee character due to the short range that allows for Skirmish damage in melee, so the two are a bit redundant. Still, if you want to go for it, I'd definitely go with Power Attack in the last feat slot, and Cloistered Cleric-dip in near future (or now, even).

MustacheFart
2009-05-25, 01:41 PM
It's worth noting that Swift Hunter is almost a near-melee character due to the short range that allows for Skirmish damage in melee, so the two are a bit redundant.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you explain, please? :smallsmile:


What would such a build with a dip into cloistered cleric look like? I'm not opposed to cleric, I just wanted to keep ranged/melee the focus of the build, not casting (although clerics are badass).

I figured greater manyshot + splitting bow enhancement + skirmish would be pretty nasty so, I wouldn't have to do too much melee.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 01:49 PM
His typical strategy is to get the jump on his enemy, unload on it from at range, and if said enemy should manage to get close, take it down with melee.
I was just putting a character like this together for my next game. It still might need to bw tweaked for a better progression, but:
Scout 4/Cleric 1/Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Scout X
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse, Quickdraw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting, Swift Hunter, Rapid Shot

Later on, look at the TWF tree, Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer (RotW) and Improved Skirmish (CS).

Barbarian variants:
Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce (CC)
Ranged Weapon Style for Rapid Shot & Favored Enemy (UA)

Cleric Options:
Celerity Domain (SpC)
Travel Devotion x3 (CC)

I intended this as an axe-thrower. Using Travel Devotion for easy Skirmish 3 combats/day and Updraft (SpC)/Pounce to force it in later encounters.

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 01:53 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by this. Could you explain, please? :smallsmile:

Skirmish-damage (like all Precision-damage) only functions on ranged weapons when fired within a 30' range (that is, point blank range). This is easily within an opponent's charge-range; in general, this means that to use your Skirmish-abilities without Ranged Skirmisher (which increases your Skirmish-range to 60'), you are almost in the melee range already.


What would such a build with a dip into cloistered cleric look like? I'm not opposed to cleric, I just wanted to keep ranged/melee the focus of the build, not casting (although clerics are badass).

Eh, you basically take straight Scout/Ranger except for one level of Cloistered Cleric; you take domains "Undeath, Travel & Knowledge" (optimally; Cloistered Cleric sees to Knowledge though), and trade Travel and Knowledge for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion.

Then you burn all your Turn Undead attempts on extra uses of Travel Devotion giving you 4-5 daily uses of the ability. You could really take this level as early as level 7. Ranger 2/Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 1 and advancing Ranger for the rest of your career works fine. Ranger 3/Scout 3 also works, but Scout 4 has the bonus feat which you can use to acquire Improved Skirmish ASAP.


I figured greater manyshot + splitting bow enhancement + skirmish would be pretty nasty so, I wouldn't have to do too much melee.

This is true; a Swift Hunter doesn't need to melee ever save for very tight quarters (you even have Tumble) in very specific circumstances. I understood you wanted a mixed ranged/melee build though hence the suggestions to that effect. Indeed, with Greater Manyshot (or Travel Devotion + Rapid Shot), Improved Skirmish and Splitting, you'll probably deal comparable or even superior damage at range.


Level 8 progression I'd use would be:
1: Scout 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (H), Darkstalker (F), Open Feat (F)
2: Ranger 1
3: Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot, Open Feat
4: Scout 2
5: Scout 3
6: Scout 4 - Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish
7: Cloistered Cleric 1 - Travel Devotion (+3-4 extra uses by losing 2 Turn Attempts each), Knowledge Devotion
8: Ranger 3 - Endurance


Open Feats could be Able Learner, Ancestral Relic, Track (if going "Trap Ranger" to switch it for Trapfinding & Search + Disable Device), Sword of the Arcane Order [Champions of Valor], Fleet of Foot, Swift & Silent, Otherworldly or some such.

MustacheFart
2009-05-25, 03:01 PM
I understood you wanted a mixed ranged/melee build though hence the suggestions to that effect.

Right, I do want a mix. I guess I just meant that if I powered up my ranged enough, I would probably kill most foes before getting into melee, which I would still be effective at or at least want to be effective at. Ya, I don't want to split my focus so much so that I can't really do either that well, effectively gimping myself.

Like say I am plucking away at a bad guy and he manages to get into melee with me. I envisioned my character switching to his greatsword and chopping him down, taking his life or the little life that he had left lol before...say, tumbling around him, running away, and unloading on him again. I mean doing such may not be the smartest choice but it's within the character's personality. Kind of a, "Oh you want to get in my face? Bring it!" type of guy. Of course certain baddies I would just tumble around and unload on them.


I still have a couple questions:

First, wouldn't taking the Undeath Domain keep me from taking Ancestral Relic as that domain is governed by two evil deities and ancestral relic requires that I be good?

My other question, which has nothing necessarily to do with the build is about a couple augment crystals. I saw in MIC there are two crystals that give the ability to crit/sneak attack undead and constructs, respectively. Wouldn't these also allow me to skirmish said monster types? If so, wouldn't it be better to get those 2 crystals (16kgp together) and use my Favored Enemies choices on foes I will encounter more often? Like isn't there a Favored Enemy(Arcana) or something like that?

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 03:09 PM
Right, I do want a mix. I guess I just meant that if I powered up my ranged enough, I would probably kill most foes before getting into melee, which I would still be effective at or at least want to be effective at. Ya, I don't want to split my focus so much so that I can't really do either that well, effectively gimping myself.

Like say I am plucking away at a bad guy and he manages to get into melee with me. I envisioned my character switching to his greatsword and chopping him down, taking his life or the little life that he had left lol before...say, tumbling around him, running away, and unloading on him again. I mean doing such may not be the smartest choice but it's within the character's personality. Kind of a, "Oh you want to get in my face? Bring it!" type of guy. Of course certain baddies I would just tumble around and unload on them.

Then just pick Power Attack; that gets you pretty far, although without ToB maneuvers, it alone may leave something to be desired still. I'm running a Sublime Way Ranger (on level 4 right now in the Low-Magic Game I'm Diarying) with this very same plan and it's worked great thus far, with just Power Attack for melee and focusing the rest on range.

So this works out just fine with a decent Str-focus; you won't be amazing Two-Hander, but you'll be able to hold your own. Later on, add Robilar's Gambit (and Combat Reflexes) and you'll be golden.


First, wouldn't taking the Undeath Domain keep me from taking Ancestral Relic as that domain is governed by two evil deities and ancestral relic requires that I be good?

It's possible to serve an ideal or reflavour the domain, since all you're getting from it are extra uses of Travel Devotion. Other than that, you're right. You could use another Domain to acquire some other useful feat (indeed, Elf-domain gives you Point Blank Shot for example, so if you took your Cleric-level at 1, that would work out just fine) or ability (Luck comes to mind...) and pick Extra Turnings as a feat instead; it's possible. Point being, you don't need to be Evil to come up with enough Turn-attempts to make Travel Devotion work.


My other question, which has nothing necessarily to do with the build is about a couple augment crystals. I saw in MIC there are two crystals that give the ability to crit/sneak attack undead and constructs, respectively. Wouldn't these also allow me to skirmish said monster types? If so, wouldn't it be better to get those 2 crystals (16kgp together) and use my Favored Enemies choices on foes I will encounter more often? Like isn't there a Favored Enemy(Arcana) or something like that?

They wouldn't allow you to Skirmish vs. the opponents by RAW (they only mention Sneak Attack; as the other precision abilities existed by the time MiC was printed and weren't mentioned, this could be intentional, but as the crystals allow Crits, probably not), but it's a very, very reasonable houserule, and yes, it's worth making extensive use of them if this is house ruled in your favor.

That said, I'd get FE: Undead anyways since it's simply the largest Favored Enemy group and one of the largest creature types in the game, period. Constructs, on the other hand, are comparatively rare and relying on the Crystals could get you far.

MustacheFart
2009-05-25, 03:33 PM
I forget, can enhancement bonuses to an attribute from magic items let you qualify for feats? Like if I got my wis up to 13 with a periapt of wisdom and took Far Shot, could I then take Ranged Skirmisher? I remember a DM saying you could but said feat would only work while wearing the item, but I think he may have been house ruling.

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 03:40 PM
I forget, can enhancement bonuses to an attribute from magic items let you qualify for feats? Like if I got my wis up to 13 with a periapt of wisdom and took Far Shot, could I then take Ranged Skirmisher? I remember a DM saying you could but said feat would only work while wearing the item, but I think he may have been house ruling.

Yes, but if you ever lose the prerequisites you lose the benefits of whatever you need them for, and whatever feats build off that (it's in Complete Warrior somewhere). That said, you'll prolly want some Wis anyways to cast your Ranger-spells.

MustacheFart
2009-05-25, 11:29 PM
I'm running a Sublime Way Ranger (on level 4 right now in the Low-Magic Game I'm Diarying) with this very same plan and it's worked great thus far, with just Power Attack for melee and focusing the rest on range.

Ok, I just took a look at the Sublime Way Ranger variant and it really really looks awesome as well as perfect for what I'm going for. I think I can probably talk my DM into allowing it. The main reason the people I play with aren't keen on ToB is because they don't really understand it. Hell, someone needs to enlighten them! I really do hate gimping my melee characters because I can't power them up to make them more comparable to the batman wizard in the party.

Anyway, is it possible you could post your build, with specifics on what maneuvers and stances (feats too lol) you took(and plan to take) and at what levels you took/will take them?

Also what animal companion did you take? That's something I need to figure out.


Also a homebrew rule, kind of, for our game is that the DM likes each character to have one special item or quality that has to do with their backstory, which sets them apart from the average joes. I'm thinking about either asking my DM for a special Animal Companion, should a good one be suggested or possibly allowing my character to possess the Powerful Build feature, even though human. I'm kind of going for a Gutz from Bezerk type of guy (minus the obvious ubercharger aspect) so it fits.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 08:06 AM
Well, the character is built under a few houserules (as a consequence the game being in low-magic world without magic items or such) you can find in the OP of the Campaign Journal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6061031#post6061031).

His character sheet: Peter Chuckson (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=107302)
The class: Sublime Way Ranger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=738077)
The homebrew Archery discipline: Falling Star (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=771597)


I personally traded away Animal Companion for Distracting Attack since Ranger Animal Companion is weak unless your GM allows it to be a full progression companion (and there's a Rogue in the party the Ranger is in so Distracting Attack is very useful). Even Druid's animal companion needs a lot of Spell Mojo to be decent on high levels; Ranger doesn't have any and has a gimped AC advancement.

But if you could get a special animal companion, it could be different. I personally have a thing for feline companions; Tigers of all kinds are my favourites. Although I do like Bears too, just 'cause they're awesome. Of course, Dinosaurs make for a more interesting option (Fleshraker is the strongest one in the books), as do some creatures not commonly available as ACs (Pegasus? Unicorn? Griffon? Dragon?).

Gaiyamato
2009-05-26, 08:20 AM
I would look at at least 1 level of deepwood sniper.

You get the keen property on al of your arrows for free, and the max range for your longbow shots gain an extra 10ft/deepwood level.

There was another class that gives you a pile of ranged feats for free but I cannot remember it for the life of me. :(
I was looking at it only an hour ago. lol.

If it hasn't been mentioned there is also a feat somewhere that stacks ranger and scout levels for the skirmish bonus.