O-chul > Miko or Miko> O-chul

[homeosapiens]

This is a debate topic, and i mean full health, all equipment with them by this time. Probably including 1 negative level from ressurection on Miko.

For me O-chul wins that if we take Stunning fist as a fort save, as it should be. If it is will save i'm not really sure.

[Siosilvar]

This is a debate topic, and i mean full health, all equipment with them by this time. Probably including 1 negative level from ressurection on Miko.

For me O-chul wins that if we take Stunning fist as a fort save, as it should be. If it is will save i'm not really sure.


Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally.

O-Chul would win even if it weren't Fortitude. He's got about a bajillion hit points and just owned Redcloak (a high-level cleric) over with an improvised weapon and no armor.

[homeosapiens]

I know that. Giant staded in descripcion of Miko fight (can som1 link it?) that it used will save, and didnt reply on saying it is fort save. This means, that it would tottaly ruin his description of the fight, cause belklar would rage and flank Miko with Roy,or that it also was houseruled in becouse of that.

Edit: Miko save against Stunning fist is so high, we never saw any1 saving. How do you expect O-chul to win stunned all the time?

Btw: Miko Wis (12-14)+1/2level(8)+10=20 on minimum, not easy to save, and she can use it quite a few times.

[Snake-Aes]

This is a debate topic, and i mean full health, all equipment with them by this time. Probably including 1 negative level from ressurection on Miko.

For me O-chul wins that if we take Stunning fist as a fort save, as it should be. If it is will save i'm not really sure.

Miko would surrender to his awesomeness and become his particular Geisha.

[Moriarty]

before she fell, Miko was the strongest member of the Saphire Guard, so she would propably win. now however, Miko is a level lower and a fighter without bonus feats so Ochul could win

[mec]

O-chul would not fight Miko.

Instead, he would bestow upon her: treasure type "O".

[Calmness]

They are different builds, and designed to do different things so it's not fair to compare them in a 1v1 match. That said, O-Chul makes an awesome tank, as with his high HP can take a lot of damage, and seems to have a good strength score as well. Miko meanwhile has excellent will/reflex saves, evasion, and a pretty scary full attack, so she tends to be more versatile.

Both would be good opponents though.

[homeosapiens]

Trat treasure type "O" idea intrigues me :-). Althrought I always wanted her to attone and get better and be with Roy :Miko: :Roy: .

Let us face two opcions, "with" and "without paladin powers". Remember we talk now. We dont know exacly how many levels did O-chul gain, but certainly he did gain a few.

[Ancalagon]

They should be around the same. In regards to level they probably are within a two-or-three-level-frame...

[Shadic]

O-Chul is likely four or more levels below Miko.

If she were still a Paladin and they were fighting, she would beat him.

[homeosapiens]

Miko after res would be 15 lv, and i thnik o-chul, after 9 months of constant exp gain can be even 18 lv.

[Snake-Aes]

They should be around the same. In regards to level they probably are within a two-or-three-level-frame...

that's a huge difference, actually.

[Moriarty]

Miko after res would be 15 lv, and i thnik o-chul, after 9 months of constant exp gain can be even 18 lv.

if Ochul would be over lv 15, he could have attacked Redcloak 4times, instead of 3

[homeosapiens]

Well HE WAS charging. So those attacks could be also from fancy feats.

[Ancalagon]

that's a huge difference, actually.

Not here, where the rules (especially in close-combat) are really soft (rules on magic seem to be followed a bit stricter).

[Yehomer]

I know that. Giant staded in descripcion of Miko fight (can som1 link it?) that it used will save, and didnt reply on saying it is fort save. This means, that it would tottaly ruin his description of the fight, cause belklar would rage and flank Miko with Roy,or that it also was houseruled in becouse of that.

Edit: Miko save against Stunning fist is so high, we never saw any1 saving. How do you expect O-chul to win stunned all the time?

Btw: Miko Wis (12-14)+1/2level(8)+10=20 on minimum, not easy to save, and she can use it quite a few times.

Order vs. Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)

Dude, no way Miko is level 16. She was supposed to be 2-3 levels higher than the Order around 200 strips back... meaning 13-14 tops, assuming the Order was around 11-12 at the siege of Azure City.


We know that Hinjo was the second most powerful Paladin in the Saphire Guard, and seeing how Miko beat him easily even without her powers, I don't see how O-Chul is going to stand a chance, being less than second most powerful.

[homeosapiens]

Redcloack is lv 15 and Miko beats him rather without using all her possibilities. True, she ain't got 4 attacks, but she has monk levels(2-4)and 12 paladin levels at least. Assuming she was better then RC i think 16 lv is most probable.

[Moriarty]

Redcloack is lv 15 and Miko beats him rather without using all her possibilities. True, she ain't got 4 attacks, but she has monk levels(2-4)and 12 paladin levels at least. Assuming she was better then RC i think 16 lv is most probable.

RC is really not good in close combat. He wears no armor, nor has a weapon. the only 1on1 fight hes won yet is against another unarmed cleric

also, we didn't see the entire fight, so we can't say wether Miko used all her possibilities

[ericgrau]

Miko was supposed to be the most powerful paladin back during the Azure city story. Hinjo was the 2nd. Since then everyone has gained maybe 2 levels. Maybe that and the level loss from rez is enough to put O-Chul on par with Miko, but it'd be a close fight.

If we assume Miko is still fallen, then O-Chul wins hands down.

Neither has any ability that has much effect on the other. Smite, stunning fist, evasion, etc. don't really work. If O-Chul happens to have a fighter feat that's good for 1v1 combat, like improved disarm or sunder, then that may give him the advantage.

[homeosapiens]

Redcloack wears black armor, he said that to Mitd in Sod

There is no reason to say he is bad in close combat.

[homeosapiens]

Why stunning fist wouldnt work? I'm sure it wouldnt work if it was fort save, but apparently in Oootverse it is will save (who the hell knows why), and by that it would render o-chul helpless(if he didnt roll high).

[Moriarty]

Redcloack wears black armor, he said that to Mitd in Sod

that's a joke. if Redcload would war armor, he would propably have shoulderpads or something

[Zerter]

She probably has the "Choose your poison" feat (which originates from Quinessential Monk I think) which allows you to pick if stunning fist is a fort or will save. Awesome feat, makes all the difference in the world in monk vs. generic warrior combat (if somehow superior speed alone does not own them).

[Berserk Monk]

Gotta go with O-Chul. His will was high enough to beat Xykon's symbol of insanity. He survived a vat of acid and acid breathing shark. He survived a massive explosion that killed Miko (both were the same distance part from the blast origin). He had enough strength to break through a cage bar (granted, Miko did the same). He kicked Red Cloak's ass in six panels with a literal metal stick (Miko did this between two comics, so it's unaware of how much longer it took her, not to mention Red Cloak could have gained some levels (battle of Azure City anyone)).

[homeosapiens]

I thnik if redcloak didnt wear anyarmor he would have some sort of robe on him like the twelve god's cleric's. Anyway we are going way of topic here.

This feat really exist? Or it is just some kind of speculation? That would explain a lot to me, cause Belkar not saving 20 fort dc seems veery strange(9 base+con by then).

[Mando Knight]

that's a joke. if Redcload would war armor, he would propably have shoulderpads or something

He's a cleric, and thus has no reason to not wear armor. However, he may be wearing lighter armor than Durkon or Jirix (possibly due to a high enough Dex bonus).

O-Chul would win, though. First off, he takes down one of the highest-level full spellcasters in just a few rounds with only a bent metal stick. Secondly, he's O-Chul (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticBadass).

[Hydro Globus]

It's easy. Miko > O-chul. They both say so themselves.

[homeosapiens]

But WHEN they say that. That's a important clause. He gained few levels from ridiculous deathtraps, and she is going to lose a level for ressurection.

[Assassin89]

Miko is a monk/Paladin, meaning that she is overpowered. O-chul on the other hand is a fighter/Paladin.

In terms of sanity O-chul wins. In terms of combat, it is a toss-up.

[Flickerdart]

Miko is a monk/Paladin, meaning that she is overpowered.
Multiclassing between two weak classes does not make you overpowered in the least. O-Chul's BAB would be nearly on par with Miko's, and his HP would certainly be higher. His Fighter Bonus Feats would serve him better than Stunning Fist and Flurry.

Plus, Smiting Miko might actually work.

[Zerter]

This feat really exist? Or it is just some kind of speculation? That would explain a lot to me, cause Belkar not saving 20 fort dc seems veery strange(9 base+con by then).

D&D 3rd Edition - MGP - The Quintessential Monk
Choose the Poison (Monk)
Your knowledge of anatomy is unequalled and you are able to strike even the most well-protected pressure points with ease.

Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed, Heal 8 ranks
Benefits: When using a stunning attack, you choose whether your opponent must attempt a Fortitude or Will save.

[Iranon]

While O-Chul acknowledged Miko as the finest warrior of the Sapphire Guard, I think that doesn't imply too much about how a fight would go... the characters are too different.

Miko has a great build for solo missions - saving throws through the roof to prevent an 'Oops, I'm dead', coupled with enough damage output to quickly neutralise the biggest threats and better mobility to avoid getting swamped. She sacrifices some staying power (no heavy armour, demanding stat prerequisites elsewhere so CON is likely to be low-ish).

We know O-Chul has a ton of hit points and he has no reason to eschew heavy armour. His offensive capabilites aren't really known (story-fudged criticals don't count; and I'm not sure about his split between fighter and paladin levels) but there is no reason to assume his tankiness is overdone enough to be a liability here.

A direct fight seems to play to O-Chul's strength and Miko's weaknesses; unless Miko has several levels on him or the DM went disgustingly over the top with her ability scores I think O-Chul would outlast her.
However... Miko has mobility on her side; if things go wrong for her she can probably break off the fight. If she rolls well and O-Chul doesn't, he's dead.

[Chronos]

Quoth Yehomer:
Dude, no way Miko is level 16. She was supposed to be 2-3 levels higher than the Order around 200 strips back... meaning 13-14 tops, assuming the Order was around 11-12 at the siege of Azure City.We know that the Order was level 13 at the Siege of Azure City, and IIRC, Miko's demonstrated capabilities are consistent with her being 15 or 16 (probably around monk 2/paladin 13).

And on what basis are people saying that Miko's stunning fist is a Will save?

[Flickerdart]

D&D 3rd Edition - MGP - The Quintessential Monk
Choose the Poison (Monk)
Your knowledge of anatomy is unequalled and you are able to strike even the most well-protected pressure points with ease.

Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed, Heal 8 ranks
Benefits: When using a stunning attack, you choose whether your opponent must attempt a Fortitude or Will save.
That's not under the OGL, and thus Rich can't really use it. It is also, I believe, 3rd party? Aside from one-time gags and stuff Rich makes up (Dashing Swordsman, Soul Splice, etc) the comic's mostly under the SRD.

[Needle]

Both at their full power, I think Miko has a slight advantage. Tough I like O-Chul more, I think Miko was better before her lost her Paladin powers (and her mind)

[shadzar]

O'Chul as he is still a paladin, and Miko was turned to evil with Belkar's help so he will just smite the Nine Hells out of her up on side of the street and back down the other.

[Superglucose]

That's not under the OGL, and thus Rich can't really use it. It is also, I believe, 3rd party? Aside from one-time gags and stuff Rich makes up (Dashing Swordsman, Soul Splice, etc) the comic's mostly under the SRD.

He didn't use it, but it proves the concept.

[An Enemy Spy]

I'm not sure if O-chul would like the idea of hacking apart the severed rotting carcass of his former comrade, but if it came to that, I'm not sure there's anything Miko could do to stop him.

[Dagren]

I'm not sure if O-chul would like the idea of hacking apart the severed rotting carcass of his former comrade, but if it came to that, I'm not sure there's anything Miko could do to stop him.On the other hand, if Tsukiko changed her mind, I doubt he would even pause in fulfilling his duty.

[Trizap]

O-Chul is greater, after all he is Chuck Norris's DnD character and Chuck Norris is O-Chul's D20 Modern character........

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

We know that Hinjo was the second most powerful Paladin in the Saphire Guard, and seeing how Miko beat him easily even without her powers, I don't see how O-Chul is going to stand a chance, being less than second most powerful.

Is it explicitly stated at "Paladin in the Sapphire Guard?" Because that could simply imply that O-Chul has fewer Paladin levels, and is thus a weaker "Paladin" while being a stronger fighter overall.

Regardless, I believe that O-Chul has well surpassed Miko as of late. In fact, I think he's well on his way to Epic. :smallbiggrin:

[homeosapiens]

And on what basis are people saying that Miko's stunning fist is a Will save?

Order vs. Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639)


You just quoted guy, who linked it in the same post. It's in miko vs oots descripcion by Giant.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding the Order's level during the Miko fight, Rich mentioned Belkar having 12 hit dice so I'm guessing that everyone else was level 12 as well. Assuming Miko had her Paladin abilities, she would at least be able to heal herself a bit, while O-Chul may not even have a Cha bonus judging by how it's his dump stat. On the other hand, O-Chul could a higher level then Miko was before she died due to Xykon's challenges, and the fact that he could punch a shark's teeth out suggests a good Str stat, so he would probably win if he could shut down Miko's mobility advantage.

[ChrisDemilich]

O-Chul is likely four or more levels below Miko.

If she were still a Paladin and they were fighting, she would beat him.

Miko loses a level for being revived. On the other hand, O-Chul has gained an untold number of levels. How? Xykon has had him fighting monsters, traps, and every other terrible trial he can think of. He's been surviving them all, and getting stronger the whole time.

Chances are, in those months, he has gained 5-6 levels. He might even be getting close to epic levels. Afterall, one hit on a high level cleric was enough to make redcloak flee, after losing an eye. And that was just with a steel pole. Do not forget that Miko was barely stronger then Redcloak in a fight.

[David Argall]

Is it explicitly stated at "Paladin in the Sapphire Guard?" Because that could simply imply that O-Chul has fewer Paladin levels, and is thus a weaker "Paladin" while being a stronger fighter overall.
Both Miko and O-Chul make statements ranking her as #1. There is no good reason to think either meant anything but that she could wipe the floor with any other member of the SG.


Regardless, I believe that O-Chul has well surpassed Miko as of late. In fact, I think he's well on his way to Epic.

Not much chance of this. What would the story benefit from having this NPC suddenly more powerful from the party? [In-story, the XP from any victories can have easily been cancelled by a few rounds fighting a wight.]

[Tempest Fennac]

Don't forget that O-Chul is extremely likely to make Fort saves to get negative levels back due to his Fort saves apparently being really high.

[homeosapiens]

So, by now the most possible situation is that O-chul would beat Miko, becouse he gained much levels, and she is going to lose one of them if she is ever going to get raised - with or without her paladin powers (witch are mostly useless against paladin opponent). Her only chances are in stunning fist attacks, though she is almost helpless if she is going to get weapons sundered (1k6 fist+str? against O-chul?).

[homeosapiens]

You think miko would evade that lighting? Or meteor damage?

[Dagren]

You think miko would evade that lighting? Or meteor damage?Not the meteor swarm, not if the spheres connected (which they seem to have done)

[David Argall]

Don't forget that O-Chul is extremely likely to make Fort saves to get negative levels back due to his Fort saves apparently being really high.

Unimportant if Redcloak is trying to prevent him from gaining levels. He just has a wight slap O-Chul once a day until O-Chul rolls a one. Repeat daily as needed and O-Chul ends up at whatever level Redcloak desires.

[Tempest Fennac]

Good point. There's no evidence that RC is doing that, though (there is a possibility that he doesn't think O-Chul is gaining Exps., assuming that he is getting something out of Xykon's challenges).

[homeosapiens]

What for would RC do that? If he comes back, he mind consider that, but earlier? More HP for O-chul means more fun, nobody actually saw him earlier as a real threat. He;s performance with a metal bar rather says that he leveled a lot. Would Redcloak lose to lv 12 character? Or worse? I dont think so. That's way more pragmatic they anyone in team evil is. + I thnik RC was Ok with him gaining lv, as this meant the possibility of death in those traps went down a notch each time he levelled.

BTW: Doesnt 656 states he is over 15lv? 4attacks on the phylactery...

[toysailor]

While it has been mentioned that Miko was the most powerful paladin, perhaps it only meant that she was the highest leveled paladin. O-chul, with his years being a warrior before joining the Sapphire Guard may even have more pure warrior levels than Miko (maybe a Fighter 12/Paladin 2? who knows?).

He's definately more awesome though, I think we can all agree on that.

[Shatteredtower]

Unimportant if Redcloak is trying to prevent him from gaining levels. He just has a wight slap O-Chul once a day until O-Chul rolls a one. Repeat daily as needed and O-Chul ends up at whatever level Redcloak desires.

There are several non-core (but still WotC) feats that would override that. One of them comes from Libris Mortis, and allows for you to use a standard action each round to make a saving throw for the purpose of removing negative levels.

O-Chul might not have it, but it's unlikely that Redcloak has been playing the wight game. For one, Tsukiko might consider it exploitation of her charges. For another, it's not in his interests to keep the only thing distracting Xykon too weak to survive escalating levels of challenge. Finally, it's just too cheese-laden a metagame stunt to be worth considering, even for a comic that acknowledges the metagame.

Besides, it's more likely that Redcloak would assume that O-Chul hasn't been able to gain a single level. By the rules, no levels are gained until after an adventure is over. It would be quite understandable if the cleric assumed that the paladin's captivity is all one big adventure, rather than a series of smaller, independent scenarios, and have no idea how many levels O-Chul might have gained by now.

It's also possible that such an assumption is correct, and O-Chul hasn't gained a level at all. This would be particularly annoying if he's gained enough xp to level three or four times over, since he'd still only be able to gain a single level.

[homeosapiens]

Who told you that you gain level after end of scenario? There is no such rules - it's only one opction for the DM, and a sucky one too. Clearly we saw that characters gain exp here for every single chalenge, even for spinning a sob story right away.

[Shatteredtower]

Who told you that you gain level after end of scenario?

No one told me. I read the rulebooks. You might want to check out the DMG sometime.

[homeosapiens]

Read it again then. It is OPCIONAL for DM to give exp as he pleases. He can give it for each encounter, and can also do it after an adventure. I dont even have to open the book to tell you that. +We have clear evidence that Rich gives EXP right away.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html
On the other hand, he also gives bonus exp for story:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html
And for role playing:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html

If you wont get it now i shall retire from this OT.

[fractal]

I always thought Miko was about level 16 (Monk 4/Paladin 12 or so). She presents a credible threat to the entire party (minus Durkon), which implies APL+4 (and the party was about 12 at the time). She also takes down Redcloak, who we know to be at least level 15. On the other hand, level 17 would give her an extra attack (unless she has at least 5 levels of Monk, which seems unlikely), which she does not have.

O-Chul has been busily acquiring scars in Xykon's ridiculous deathtraps, which I am tempted to equate with experience. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that he has leveled (since the time that Miko and Hinjo were the two best fighters in the Sapphire Guard, but O-Chul was the toughest - possibly excepting Miko).

O-Chul threatens Redcloak more quickly than Miko (although Redcloak would probably have just cast Heal if he still had his holy symbol) with only a non-magic metal bar. However, Vaarsuvius had softened Redcloak up by around 50 points of Chain Lightning damage. O-Chul also gets 4 attacks on the phylactery. So he's at least level 16. Given that Xykon mauled him, however, I see no reason to assume near-Epic (and sadly, no Vow of Poverty). Probably 16-17, about the same as Miko.

If the two of them are going to fight, Miko will have to be brought back - why not True Resurrection? So how does, say, a Fighter 8/Paladin 8 stack up against a Monk 4/Paladin 12? Miko's superior (non-Fort) saves won't help her here. Stunning Fist is unlikely to work unless it uses a Will Save. O-Chul has a lot more hp, but Miko can heal herself (if she has her Paladin powers). If they both have full equipment, their damage output is probably to be similar (O-Chul's Power Attack will be better, but he can't afford to use it much against Miko's AC). Windstriker probably can't do too much, and O-Chul's hypothetical steed won't be any better.

Seems like a pretty even fight, unless O-Chul has relevant feats we don't know about.

[homeosapiens]

I always thought Miko was about level 16 (Monk 4/Paladin 12 or so).
Not sure. She had ITWF(most probably), so that is why she had 5 attacks.


O-Chul was the toughest - possibly excepting Miko).

I dont agree. O-chul was as close as she was to the center of the explosion, and he lived even thought he took impossible fall damage apart from explosion damage.


Probably 16-17, about the same as Miko.

I agree, but i mentioned in the topic, that she is going to waste a level for raising if she gets it. TR still takes away a level, i thnik you forgot that.


Stunning Fist is unlikely to work unless it uses a Will Save. O-Chul has a lot more hp, but Miko can heal herself (if she has her Paladin powers).
The save seems to be te crux of the issue. Thought still it doesnt give her 100%. She has like 3 times less hp than him with items, and those cloacks they were migs add +5 to all saves.

[Shatteredtower]

It is OPCIONAL for DM to give exp as he pleases.

I see. So the problem you're having is with comprehension. Levelling takes place at the end of the adventure. It is not the same thing as earning xp, though the two are related.

Retire when you please, though.

[Dagren]

I dont agree. O-chul was as close as she was to the center of the explosion, and he lived even thought he took impossible fall damage apart from explosion damage.That's, what, 20d6 right there from the fall alone? Completely ignoring the initial explosion.


I agree, but i mentioned in the topic, that she is going to waste a level for raising if she gets it. TR still takes away a level, i thnik you forgot that.Nope, check the SRD. After all, it is a ninth level spell.

[doodthedud]

A tank versus a damager...Hmmmm

Well, my only DnD experience is the game 'Neverwinter Nights'

And from what I've seen there....Tank wins.

Especially if its a badass tank with a freaking metal pole and some killer strength.

Miko may be the STRONGEST (STR) paladin, but she is not the toughest (CON) or the wisest (WIS) or the most intelligent (Int). I'd say any meat-tank can outsmart her. Tactics win the day, not necessarily abilities.

[homeosapiens]

Nope, check the SRD. After all, it is a ninth level spell.
My bad. Sorry. This "functions as Raise Dead" misguided me.

[homeosapiens]

Levelling takes place at the end of the adventure.
Just OMG! Sorry -i just cant stand it. :smalleek:


+We have clear evidence that Rich gives EXP right away.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html

Hope you didnt actually check it, cause if you did, then i am really, really sorry.