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grautry
2009-05-25, 04:50 PM
So, let's assume that DMM is available but Nightsticks aren't.

Do you think it is worth taking multiple Extra Turnings instead of other feats? They stack after all.

In an optimistic case, this can give you as much as 30 turn attempts - or more.

Do you think that other feats(and prestige classes if we're at it) are worth sacrificing for the undeniable power of DMM Persist?

What if Persist is unavailable but say, DMM Quicken is? Could it still be worth it or would you rather take something different?

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 05:46 PM
Do you think that other feats(and prestige classes if we're at it) are worth sacrificing for the undeniable power of DMM Persist?

I don't like it.

(I'm assuming you're going for a melee Cleric here):

Even with the usual DMM suspects (Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor), the Cleric isn't as good at melee as a Fighter.
The Cleric's almost certainly more powerful overall, but a size increase and a couple +attack and +damage abilities won't usually match the Fighter when it comes to melee combat.

(I underlined that last bit so no smartass comes by to misinterpret me. Wall of Stone still out-locks the Fighter, metamagicked Enervation still makes the Paladin cry.)

At the heavy feat costs, I'd rather take real feats (Combat Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Robilar's Gambit, Power Attack, Law Devotion, etc).
And maybe Craft Rod for high-level Metamagicking needs.

Eldariel
2009-05-25, 06:01 PM
If you can't use Nightsticks, it's generally worth it. DMM: Persist allows you to easily get higher numbers than any Fighter ever (because having access to DMM: Persist means you've got at least Complete Divine, which adds a good bunch of buff spells for you). You'll have fewer tricks, but what does that really matter when your raw numbers are enough to deal with anything? Really, after Power Attack, every melee feat is pure bonus.

So yeah, get Power Attack and if you can't use Nightsticks, just go for Extra Turnings. Not only can you outfight the Fighter, there's a bunch of great short duration party buffs that add to everyone's performance; the more Turnings you have, the more you can have available at all time. So yeah, level 1 Extend (Domain), Persist, DMM: Persist, Extra Turning (Domain), Power Attack (Flaw), Extra Turning (Domain) is a fine start, with Extra Turning on every level thereafter except for the obligatory Quicken on 12.


For feats other than Persist though, it's probably not worth it. Persist is so great because it means you don't need to spend actions buffing meaning they can be used to kick ass instead. You may pick two or so for Quicken or Chain or whatever, but that's really all you should bother with.

monty
2009-05-25, 06:12 PM
The Cleric's almost certainly more powerful overall, but a size increase and a couple +attack and +damage abilities won't usually match the Fighter when it comes to melee combat.

Are you kidding? Divine Power alone makes a cleric equal to a fighter minus feats (the hit die averages to 1 hp per level, which hardly matters), plus he doesn't have to buy a +Str item (hell, spend it on more Con, to make up for the lower hit die). Throw in Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and you've added +lots to hit and damage, more Str and Con that stacks with basically everything, reach, and super-haste, without even touching the dozens of other useful buffs. If there's any feats the fighter has that somehow make it better in one specific situation, just hit the cleric with Heroics.

Talic
2009-05-25, 06:26 PM
Magic > No magic.

Magic Fighting > No magic Fighting.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 06:33 PM
Are you kidding? Divine Power alone makes a cleric equal to a fighter minus feats.
So you're like a Samurai now, but without the class abilities. Yay?


Throw in Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and you've added +lots to hit and damage, more Str and Con that stacks with basically everything, reach, and super-haste, without even touching the dozens of other useful buffs
Divine Favor is +3 attack and damage. It doesn't hurt, but I'd take Combat Reflexes any day. [Or Shock Trooper or Improved Trip or Stand Still or Combat Brute or Robilar's Gambit or Dungeoncrasher or Leap Attack or Knockback or Martial Stance or Stormguard Warrior...]

Righteous Might is much better, but leaves you with fewer options than even the likes of Chain Proficiency.

If all you're supposed to be doing is Power Attacking a target until it isn't there anymore, the Cleric can be a match with the Fighter.
If you're supposed to be doing any sort of control, I'd give it to the Fighter.
I'd say in a second that the Cleric can do both (and can do each better than the fighter).

He just can't do them simultaneously.
The combination of the two is what it means to be good at melee.

Emy
2009-05-25, 06:38 PM
So yeah, level 1 Extend (Domain), Persist, DMM: Persist, Extra Turning (Domain), Power Attack (Flaw), Extra Turning (Domain) is a fine start, with Extra Turning on every level thereafter except for the obligatory Quicken on 12.

So this character's domains are Planning, Undeath... and Undeath?

That aside, you're pretty right.

TheOOB
2009-05-25, 06:43 PM
So you're like a Samurai now, but without the class abilities. Yay?

You're still a full spellcaster...

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 06:45 PM
You're still a full spellcaster...
Every round you cast spells, yes.

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 06:47 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with Goatman, and I've said this before. Having retardedly good stats and abilities because of Persisted spells is one thing, but the character ends up being pretty one dimensional. You don't get fun things like Robiliar's, or Stormguard, or probably even Combat Reflexes. You probably won't have Standstill or Shocktrooper or a handful of other gems. You are Vanillia McPowerAttacky. Granted, you are REALLY good ad that, and you have some other spells to boot, but the amount you have to sacrifice to even get 3 spells Persisted without Nightsticks is pretty extreme. I'd rather see a well built fighter mutt under the influence of Enlarge Person, Haste, and Fires of Purity than a Cloistered Cleric with Undeath and Planning and Power Attack and 7x Extra Turning feats.

Clerics are sooooooo much more effective at being casters than they are at pretending to be a fighter, and they either have to give most of that up to be more/less equivalent to the fighter seems like a waste of potential. Like a wizard who Polymorphs into a War Troll, instead of dropping Split Ray Enervations on people and such.

Talic
2009-05-25, 06:52 PM
So a fighter's only a fighter when he's using feats? Does he only have full base attack when he's being attacked?

My, everyone goes to sleep a commoner, it seems.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-25, 06:53 PM
Actually, no. I think there are better feat choices for a Cleric than Extra Turning, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). I'd sooner choose Travel Devotion and power many swift action moves with my turn undead attempts.

Talic
2009-05-25, 06:55 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with Goatman, and I've said this before. Having retardedly good stats and abilities because of Persisted spells is one thing, but the character ends up being pretty one dimensional. You don't get fun things like Robiliar's, or Stormguard, or probably even Combat Reflexes. You probably won't have Standstill or Shocktrooper or a handful of other gems. You are Vanillia McPowerAttacky. Granted, you are REALLY good ad that, and you have some other spells to boot, but the amount you have to sacrifice to even get 3 spells Persisted without Nightsticks is pretty extreme. I'd rather see a well built fighter mutt under the influence of Enlarge Person, Haste, and Fires of Purity than a Cloistered Cleric with Undeath and Planning and Power Attack and 7x Extra Turning feats.

Clerics are sooooooo much more effective at being casters than they are at pretending to be a fighter, and they either have to give most of that up to be more/less equivalent to the fighter seems like a waste of potential. Like a wizard who Polymorphs into a War Troll, instead of dropping Split Ray Enervations on people and such.
..However, when the cleric mimics the fighter? The cleric is better at being a fighter than a fighter. And then he's still got some spells too... And those can be effective.

When the fighter mimics the cleric? He spends double move actions handing out potions.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-25, 07:39 PM
So a fighter's only a fighter when he's using feats? He might as well be, for all the good they're doing him.


..However, when the cleric mimics the fighter? The cleric is better at being a fighter than a fighter. And then he's still got some spells too... And those can be effective.
The Cleric can be a competent Fighter if he wants to be, and a damned good spellcaster to boot.
But when the Fighter's feats give higher numerical benefits than the Cleric's spells* and more applicable abilities in combat, I wouldn't say 'better.'
I'd throw a few thousand gp at Nightsticks, but dedicating all a Cleric's feats to become a lackluster Fighter impersonator? Not a chance.

*Where's the Cleric getting the damage bonus to match Knockback+Dungeoncrasher? The attack bonus to match Shock Trooper and Improved Trip? The attacks per round to match Robilar's Gambit?

Talic
2009-05-25, 07:47 PM
Meh, get a 30 Cha. That's 13 base turns to start.

FMArthur
2009-05-25, 10:17 PM
You have not seen wrath like a Cleric with Quicken metamagic, persisted buffs, and a lot of turn attempts wading into melee and still casting at the same time.

Keld Denar
2009-05-25, 10:45 PM
And you've never seen the wrath of a "mother-may-I" style control caster, have you? Anyone can beat stuff up. Spending all of your resources to be almost as good at one thing. Plus, how many turn attempts are you giving out? 20? 30? 50? Its 7 per Persisted buff, and then 5 per Quickened spell. 3 buffs (Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful) is 21 turn attempts. Then you are gonna quicken 2 spells per combat? 31 turn attempts if you have 1 combat, or 61 turn attempts if you have 4? Thats rediculous. You'd be better off spending that stuff on caster gear, bringing yourself up to rival batman in control and utility, and let someone who has all day long resources do your beatsticking.

Clericzilla is 90% theoretical, because in a real game, its A) Way to vulnerable to a single dispel, and B) Way to focused on 1 trick and C) Way to restrictive on how to get that done.

peacenlove
2009-05-25, 11:56 PM
As keld_denar said. If DMM clerics are a trouble to your campaign drop a Dispel (there are many options to make that dispel check higher). Or use opponents with higher mobility and ranged attacks (the cleric still wears heavy armor because of his abysmal dexterity and that affects his fly speed too if he has, if he doesn't have fly drop a grease spell :smallamused:). Or shatter his holy symbol :smallamused: Or resort to reflex save spells or rays.
Or or or...

DMM clerics are easier to handle than, say clever wizards or druids. In fact cleric is better at controling the enemies than "emulating" the beatstick.

FMArthur
2009-05-26, 02:19 AM
I was making no assumptions about its lasting power, safety or practicality in a normal encounter. It's just really cool to see it done successfully, that's all. Yeah, it takes a build dedicated to it; yeah, it is very vulnerable to dispels; yeah, you have better things to do as a caster; and yeah, you spend too much resources on one encounter. My post was about how cool it is to see it pulled off. It would actually be less impressive if it wasn't such a risky tactic. For that one battle, the cleric is the star of the show.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 06:24 AM
DMM: Persist Clerics are notoriously difficult to Dispel simply because they can afford to dedicate a lot of resources to countering that (since it's the only clear possible issue). Beads of Karma and Ring of Enduring Arcana alone get you +8 to the CL for Dispelling. A Ring of Greater Counterspells with Greater Dispel Magic on it would then mean that nothing short of a dedicated Dispeller is like to have any shot at succeeding, definitely not against more than one spell. Of course, there are the more extreme Initiate of Mystra-builds with Persisted AMF on them and all buffs online under it, but meh, that's Initiate of Mystra...

ClericZilla certainly does give up some resources to become a melee Fighter, but he's still got slots left to save for teleportation, offensive magic and so on. The biggest advantage of going this route is the fact that you don't need another person to clean up for yourself; for a Wizard, it's generally most economical to have pals clean up after disabling the opponents, but a Cleric can easily do the clean-up himself, and beat down most of the opposition without the need for clean-up. Of course, this can be seen as a downside because unlike a Wizard, ClericZilla isn't much of a party animal beyond Persistent Vigorous Circle, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and such mass buffs.

Also, I'd like to point out that while lower level Cleric will most certainly use Heavy Armor, he'll still pack enough offensive magic to be a veritable threat to Skirmishers, and on higher levels a Cleric can switch to Monk's Belt+Magic Vestment on Clothes-suite.


I can attest to having played in a game with a DMM: Persist Cleric built around Extra Turnings; he bailed us out vs. a bunch of Vrocks around level 9, and a higher-level Lich on level 15 when none of the other party members seemed to be able to do anything productive.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 06:43 AM
This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98333) is how to build a Clericzilla. That attack bonus is higher than most fighters are likely to be doing, the damage is WAY higher, and I do have Power Attack which isn't factored in. Also, I get five attacks per round. It will take three area GDMs to do anything at all to me, and the fourth will trip my contingency and cause me to DD out of the area. Targetted GDMs do precisely nothing to me thanks to my Spellblade. Oh, and the first time I die each day automatically trips a Heal spell.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-26, 07:06 AM
This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98333) is how to build a Clericzilla. That attack bonus is higher than most fighters are likely to be doing, the damage is WAY higher, and I do have Power Attack which isn't factored in. Also, I get five attacks per round. It will take three area GDMs to do anything at all to me, and the fourth will trip my contingency and cause me to DD out of the area. Targetted GDMs do precisely nothing to me thanks to my Spellblade. Oh, and the first time I die each day automatically trips a Heal spell.

The contingency for that heal had better be "on going under 0 hit points" rather than "on death". Heal doesn't work on corpses. :P

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 07:12 AM
It's not a contingency, it's the Fortunate Fate spell out of the Spell Compendium. But yes, I think the trigger is 0 HP.

Volkov
2009-05-26, 09:59 AM
What does the CoD in CoDzilla mean?

Douglas
2009-05-26, 10:01 AM
Cleric or Druid.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 10:12 AM
1) Keld: Clerics aren't good controllers. There is a reason you play Wizards. Clerics actually suck at that. They really are just better buffing.

2) Cleric Archer. The original and better zilla.

Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=98162) is my DMM Persist. Level 13, 16 attacks on a full attack, archer, always gets it. See Invis + True Seeing, can usually target.

For this, Nightsticks, one allowed, no stacking, most feats on Extra Turning. And those numbers are pre-Knowledge Devotion, something he can usually manage.

CL for buffs against Dispel is 24. Have fun dispelling that more then once an adventurer without making it a cakewalk for everyone else.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 10:21 AM
*throws a mordenkainen's disjunction at the cheese* (edited so it doesn't blow up items, of course).

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 10:24 AM
*throws a mordenkainen's disjunction at the cheese* (edited so it doesn't blow up items, of course).

At a level 13 character? Do you also Summon Elemental Monoliths to fight level 13 Fighters?

And what's the cheese that isn't inherent in anyone who uses DMM Persist or Polymorph.

Keld Denar
2009-05-26, 10:35 AM
1) Keld: Clerics aren't good controllers. There is a reason you play Wizards. Clerics actually suck at that. They really are just better buffing.

I'd like to beg to differ. Controlling spellcasters have various counter magic, spells to disable/hinder opponents with various debuffs/BCs, and utility spells to overcome non-combat encounters. Lots of options. You can also buff your allies just like a good Batman wizard. Sure, they don't have nearly as many great control spells like EBT or Solid Fog, but they still have a number of good options, and a few tricks that wizards don't get.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 10:39 AM
I'd like to beg to differ. Controlling spellcasters have various counter magic, spells to disable/hinder opponents with various debuffs/BCs, and utility spells to overcome non-combat encounters. Lots of options. You can also buff your allies just like a good Batman wizard. Sure, they don't have nearly as many great control spells like EBT or Solid Fog, but they still have a number of good options, and a few tricks that wizards don't get.

How about you give me a spell list for spell levels 1-7 of good control spells for such a cleric?

RTGoodman
2009-05-26, 11:06 AM
Just with cursory glance at the SRD (and others can add more), here are some nice control spells that aren't necessarily buffs (so, basically, debuffs, BFC, and/or utility):

1st: bane, cause fear, doom, endure elements, obscuring mist

2nd: augury, calm emotions, darkness, enthrall, hold person (single-target, but ridiculously good), resist energy, shatter, silence

3rd: blindness/deafness (again, single target, but good), dispel magic, glyph of warding, invisibility purge, locate object, magic circle against [alignment], wind wall

4th: control water, dimensional anchor, divination, sending, tongues

5th: commune, flame strike (some unavoidable damage vs. Reflex - not bad), greater command, insect plague, scrying, symbol of pain, symbol of sleep, true seeing, wall of stone

6th: animate objects, blade barrier, find the path, forbiddance, greater dispel magic, greater glyph of warding, symbol of fear, symbol of persuasion, undeath to death,

7th: blasphemy, control weather, dictum, greater scrying, holy word, repulsion, symbol of stunning, symbol of weakness, word of chaos

And don't forget domains. Some that have at least a little control or utility are: Air, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Plant, Travel, Trickery (including the delicious confusion), Water.


And that's just Core. Outside core there're a LOT more spells and domain, plus ACF like the one in CM that lets you burn Turn Attempts to counterspell.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 11:26 AM
Add Summon Monster.
Especially IV, VII and XI. What with the Stinking Clouds, 1/round Walls of Ice, 1/round Walls of Force and all.

And any Cleric with the Spell Domain has most of the Wizard's best tricks out of the box.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 11:32 AM
*throws a mordenkainen's disjunction at the cheese* (edited so it doesn't blow up items, of course).

Time domain gives Contingency. Set it to DD on Mord's Disjunction being cast. Problem solved. I bet you didn't prepare more than one Disjunction.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 11:42 AM
Time domain gives Contingency. Set it to DD on Mord's Disjunction being cast. Problem solved. I bet you didn't prepare more than one Disjunction.

I'm pretty sure Time was one of my Domains, but Myth Weavers ate the bottom half of the sheet again. It was something like: Knowledge/Inquisition/Planning/Time/Spell. Maybe had Undeath or Celerity instead of Time. Not sure.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 11:55 AM
Deleting all buffs left in and utility, since DMM Persists also have both those. This is a question of using standard actions to cast the spells that make opponents suck vs punching them with arrows.


1st: bane, cause fear, doom, obscuring mist

So 2 bad choices, one highly situational, and one meh. Control Wizard at level 1? Color Spray, Sleep.


2nd: darkness, enthrall, hold person (single-target, but ridiculously good), shatter, silence

So, a Wizard without Web/Glitterdust and with Hold Person. Not really an even trade.


3rd: blindness/deafness (again, single target, but good), dispel magic, invisibility purge, magic circle against [alignment], wind wall

So a Wizard without Stinking Cloud/Unluck but with invis purge. See Glitterdust + See Invis.


4th: control water, dimensional anchor

So just a Wizard that can't cast anything at all. See level 4 Wizard spells.


5th: flame strike (some unavoidable damage vs. Reflex - not bad), greater command, insect plague, wall of stone

So insect plague, and greater command. You know who else can beat enemies susceptible to mind affecting? a level 6 Wizard who does 3d4+3 Int damage each round.

Oh right, and Wall of Stone.


6th: animate objects, blade barrier, forbiddance, greater dispel magic, undeath to death,

So Blade Barrier. minus level 6 Wizard spells.


7th: blasphemy, control weather, dictum, holy word, word of chaos

So Control Weather and the game destroyers/useless set of 4. You can build a Holy Word Cleric. Everyone will hate you, but you can.


And that's just Core. Outside core there're a LOT more spells and domain, plus ACF like the one in CM that lets you burn Turn Attempts to counterspell.

Outside of Core there is a possible chance for the Cleric to be almost as good as a bad Core Wizard. Yes.

Keld Denar
2009-05-26, 12:11 PM
Thats not including things like Battlemagic Perception and Divine Defiance (FCII) to counter enemy casters and CL bump tricks like Divine Spell Power.

A cleric is a buffer/controller
A wizard is a controller/buffer

Obviously the wizard is gonna be ahead in the controller department. Arcane > Divine. You'd be hard pressed to find someone to argue otherwise. But a cleric CAN provide reasonable control to a combat situation that is more useful than HULK SMASH. Cleric Archer is very good, better, IMO, than 2handed PA Cleric, but it just takes soooooo many resources to get off the ground. It just seems so much more worthwhile to diversify a bit and focus on your strong suit (casting) which others can't replicate easily, than on something you do decently well that EVERYONE can do (fighting).

Regardless, I'm done with this debate.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 12:47 PM
Control Wizard at level 1? Color Spray, Sleep.

That wasn't the question.


[edit:]
A half-hour late and a dollar short.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 12:52 PM
I don't think I've ever made an arcane caster without scrolls of Mord's Disjunction, though, but you are correct, prepared, I usually only have one.

Talic
2009-05-26, 12:53 PM
Deleting all buffs left in and utility, since DMM Persists also have both those. This is a question of using standard actions to cast the spells that make opponents suck vs punching them with arrows.



So 2 bad choices, one highly situational, and one meh. Control Wizard at level 1? Color Spray, Sleep.



So, a Wizard without Web/Glitterdust and with Hold Person. Not really an even trade.



So a Wizard without Stinking Cloud/Unluck but with invis purge. See Glitterdust + See Invis.



So just a Wizard that can't cast anything at all. See level 4 Wizard spells.



So insect plague, and greater command. You know who else can beat enemies susceptible to mind affecting? a level 6 Wizard who does 3d4+3 Int damage each round.

Oh right, and Wall of Stone.



So Blade Barrier. minus level 6 Wizard spells.



So Control Weather and the game destroyers/useless set of 4. You can build a Holy Word Cleric. Everyone will hate you, but you can.



Outside of Core there is a possible chance for the Cleric to be almost as good as a bad Core Wizard. Yes.

Umm.. Where was the argument that clerics were better controllers than Wizards? I didn't see it.

Now, I will say that Clerics have better single target effects, and Wizards have more/better AOE/multitarget effects, for control.

The real question is: Can clerics get a solid Save or Suck/Lose for Fort, Ref, and Will? Yes.

Can Clerics get a solid "no save"? Yes.


But since you're all confrontational, how about we compare buff spells?

Or healing?

Oh yeah, the Wizard's more versatile in control...
But if it ain't got the construct type, he's kinda hard pressed to give it HP back.

Clerics can do that. Paladins can do that. Rangers can do that. Psions can do that. Heck, even bards can do that. Poor wizards, though.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 12:59 PM
Thats not including things like Battlemagic Perception and Divine Defiance (FCII) to counter enemy casters and CL bump tricks like Divine Spell Power.

A cleric is a buffer/controller
A wizard is a controller/buffer

So in other words, you have no spell list, you always play Wizards for a reason (they are better at it), and the only thing Clerics can do better is counterspell, which isn't terribly impressive and works out to requiring just as much resources as a DMM Persist Cleric. What with Divine Defiance + Turn Attempts + Inquisition + Arcane casting somehow to take 10 on CL checks.

And then you still need to build an actual character on top of that.


That wasn't the question.

Actually, that was precisely the question. If you want to spend your combat actions casting spells to do things to enemies, you want to be a Wizard. If you want to spend your combat actions kicking face and your out of combat actions buffing/being a caster, you play a Cleric. If you make a Cleric who does in combat buffing and anti enemy actions, he is worse then a Wizard or a Cleric who buffs out of combat and punches in combat, depending on the thing you do most.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 01:05 PM
Actually, that was precisely the question.
I saw Keld say Clerics make good controllers.
I saw you say Clerics suck at being controllers.
I saw rtg list some of the abilities Clerics have that make them work as controllers.
I saw you say Wizards can do it better.

But do you really think Wizards doing it better has any effect on a Cleric's effectiveness?
At all?
Does it somehow mean a Cleric can't do all those things a Cleric can do?

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 01:05 PM
Umm.. Where was the argument that clerics were better controllers than Wizards? I didn't see it.

Look harder. The argument is that Clerics are better off spending combat actions to make enemies fall down. This is wrong. Wizards are better at that. Clerics suck at it, and are better off doing several hundred damage per round.


But since you're all confrontational, how about we compare buff spells?

You mean the ones that don't cost combat actions?


Or healing?

Which can suck, or be out of combat most or be the heal spell?


Clerics can do that. Paladins can do that. Rangers can do that. Psions can do that. Heck, even bards can do that. Poor wizards, though.

Wizards can do that too, better then the Cleric (Heal as level 5 spell). Depending on how RAW you want to get. And it's not like they can't UMD a Lesser Vigor wand, making them better then everyone but Clerics.

Out of combat healing is freaking meaningless since everyone gets it. And none of those classes except Cleric can do anything in combat.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 01:25 PM
I saw Keld say Clerics make good controllers.
I saw you say Clerics suck at being controllers.
I saw rtg list some of the abilities Clerics have that make them work as controllers.
I saw you say Wizards can do it better.

But do you really think Wizards doing it better has any effect on a Cleric's effectiveness?
At all?
Does it somehow mean a Cleric can't do all those things a Cleric can do?

What makes Clerics 'good' at being controllers? Having abilities that don't actually control? Because that's what 90% of that was. Single Target mind affecting 'control' as a 5th level spell is a joke.

I showed that Wizards, who are capable of control, are leagues better. If having ineffective control counts, then even a CR 1/4 cat can perform the trip action. But you have to have good control for what you are facing to be a good controller. Clerics don't have that. (At least not in Core, outside of that, they can be almost as good as a Core Wizard who decides not to cast his best spells.)

Talic
2009-05-26, 01:36 PM
Look harder. The argument is that Clerics are better off spending combat actions to make enemies fall down. This is wrong. Wizards are better at that. Clerics suck at it, and are better off doing several hundred damage per round.It's not a race. If the Cleric is making things fall down, and the wizard is making other things fall down...

Isn't that teamwork?


You mean the ones that don't cost combat actions?Or the ones that do. Though I will say this: Clerics can get save DC's just as high. Clerics can take enemies out of fights on those save DC's with several spells. If they have 5, and the wizard has 13?

If it only takes 1, what difference does that make?
Which can suck, or be out of combat most or be the heal spell?
Or can remove status effects, or protect against status effects. After all, how good is a wizard at Controlling when he's hit by a empowered Enervate, and loses all his highest level spells? Bet he wishes he had a Cleric for Death Ward. But oh wait, those buff spells are pointless.

Wizards can do that too, better then the Cleric (Heal as level 5 spell). Depending on how RAW you want to get. And it's not like they can't UMD a Lesser Vigor wand, making them better then everyone but Clerics.Ah, because wizards prioritize Cha for that so much more than, say, Bards. Or Paladins. Or animal-based druids or rangers. Or rogues.

Oh wait.

Out of combat healing is freaking meaningless since everyone gets it. And none of those classes except Cleric can do anything in combat.I hear a lot of trash talking, and little fact/support to back it up. Tell me, Mr Color spray/sleep. What good's that do against, say, 6-8 skeletons at low level?

This is why you overlap roles. So that there is always coverage. Or so that when the wizard is threatened, someone can bail him out.


In other words, you're being belligerent. Rude. Disrespectful of others. Denigrating the preferred playstyles of others.

And for all that, you're still wrong. A level 1 wizard knocked to -2 HP cause he was casting a full-round sleep spell or a 15' range color spray could probably really use 1d8+1 right then.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 01:54 PM
What makes Clerics 'good' at being controllers? Having abilities that don't actually control? Because that's what 90% of that was. Single Target mind affecting 'control' as a 5th level spell is a joke.
Silence, Dispels, Wind Wall, Invisibility Purge, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Command, Wall of Stone, Repulsion and Earthquake disable most modes of movement and many offensive abilities.

Summons put allies on the battlefield. Some are decent fighters, some are spiders or have BC SLAs.

And via the Planar Ally chain, Gate and Miracle, Clerics have access to many effects on the Wizard list.

...Also, once you add SpC, the Cleric has 2 Wizard spells per encounter. That certainly helps.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 01:57 PM
It's not a race. If the Cleric is making things fall down, and the wizard is making other things fall down...

And if the Monk pounds it for 12 rounds while it doesn't fight back. Oh wait. That's dumb. Being bad at something means you should do something you are good at. IE do something that contributes on the same order of magnitude as the rest of the party.


Or the ones that do. Though I will say this: Clerics can get save DC's just as high. Clerics can take enemies out of fights on those save DC's with several spells. If they have 5, and the wizard has 13?

1) Or make them not with DMM Persist.
2) WTF? Saving throws has nothing to do with buffs, you want this statement somewhere else? Clerics can get comparable saving throws, and they get worse spells to go with them. Wizards have 13. Clerics have 0. Greater Command is not a level 5 spell. They have no level five spells that control.


Or can remove status effects, or protect against status effects. After all, how good is a wizard at Controlling when he's hit by a empowered Enervate, and loses all his highest level spells? Bet he wishes he had a Cleric for Death Ward. But oh wait, those buff spells are pointless.

You should actually read the arguments in question. Deathward is cast out of combat. The Wizard has it too. And he likes it. (Or he's undead, whatever). I never claimed Clerics can't cast spells, or you shouldn't have a Cleric. I said, hey Clerics can buff outside of combat and then in combat they are better doing 300 damage instead of wasting the round (and a spell slot better spent on something useful) casting Greater Command.


Ah, because wizards prioritize Cha for that so much more than, say, Bards. Or Paladins. Or animal-based druids or rangers. Or rogues.

Or, because sometimes they do when they want to UMD. And sometimes they get it as a class skill. And when they don't. If any of your 4 party members can UMD or use a wand of Lesser Vigor, then it doesn't matter that the Wizard can't. Because this is about better use of combat actions, which has nothing to do with non-combat ones.


Oh wait.I hear a lot of trash talking, and little fact/support to back it up. Tell me, Mr Color spray/sleep. What good's that do against, say, 6-8 skeletons at low level?

Oh wait, you are just making up the trash talk and ignoring the facts, hell even ignoring what I am saying and lying about what I said about buffs.

If I were a level one Wizard facing '6-8' skeletons, I would cast Silent Image and win the encounter. XP please.


This is why you overlap roles. So that there is always coverage. Or so that when the wizard is threatened, someone can bail him out.

This is why you have different roles. So that when something doesn't work (The Wizard with Color Spray and sleep in most of his slots) you don't try to do the same thing but worse (The Cleric with 8 Str and Cause Fear in all his non domain slots), you instead do something different but also good, like punch those skeletons in the face, or turn undead.


In other words, you're being belligerent. Rude. Disrespectful of others. Denigrating the preferred playstyles of others.

In other words, you are taking gratuitous amounts of offense for no reason, being belligerent in your defense of you don't even know what because you didn't pay attention to the argument, started making wild false accusations, like that I am 'denigrating playstyles' when all I said is that a Cleric isn't good at control, which is true, and exactly as denigrating as saying the Monk is bad at Archery. [insert obscure feat that allows flurry with bow + other stuff here.]


And for all that, you're still wrong. A level 1 wizard knocked to -2 HP cause he was casting a full-round sleep spell or a 15' range color spray could probably really use 1d8+1 right then.

1) a 15ft color spray need not result in being hit.
2) You are assuming that for some reason all the dice magically disfavor the wizard, allowing him to be easily hit and take a great deal of damage, in which case that 2HP he gains isn't very impressive.
3) Yes, level 1 is a very different game then level 3-8, which is different from 9-14. Yes, cure light wounds is useful at level 1. But Cure Serious isn't at level 7. Your ridiculously convoluted edge case does not invalidate the point that if you build your Cleric to cast Cause Fear and Greater Command, you are better off as a Wizard.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 02:02 PM
Silence, Dispels, Wind Wall, Invisibility Purge, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Command, Wall of Stone, Repulsion and Earthquake disable most modes of movement and many offensive abilities.

Summons put allies on the battlefield. Some are decent fighters, some are spiders or have BC SLAs.

And Wizards can do all of that, but better, with better spells. You just gave a list of spells. Which ones are Cleric specific? Greater Command (which sucks) and Invisibility Purge (which is worse then starting with see invis and using Glitterdust).

Compare that to Wizard exclusive spells. Like oh yeah, the entire 4th level array of awesome.

Repulsion and Invis Purge don't even count, because they can also be cast by a face punching Cleric.

Volkov
2009-05-26, 02:10 PM
Flame strike>Hellfire>Fireball.
Firestorm>Delayed Blast Fire>Hellfire storm.

Guess what? A cleric can have more fire storms prepared than a wizard can have delayed blast fire balls.

monty
2009-05-26, 02:33 PM
Flame strike>Hellfire>Fireball.
Firestorm>Delayed Blast Fire>Hellfire storm.

Guess what? A cleric can have more fire storms prepared than a wizard can have delayed blast fire balls.

And direct damage spells suck. What's your point?

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-26, 02:39 PM
Actually, no. I think there are better feat choices for a Cleric than Extra Turning, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). I'd sooner choose Travel Devotion and power many swift action moves with my turn undead attempts.

How many times do I have to say this? You don't fuel each round with turn attempts. The ability lasts for a full minute/activation, it just takes turning to use it more than 1/day. Each use of Travel Devotion gives you the ability to move as a Swift Action for a full minute, not just one round.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-26, 03:00 PM
How many times do I have to say this? You don't fuel each round with turn attempts. The ability lasts for a full minute/activation, it just takes turning to use it more than 1/day. Each use of Travel Devotion gives you the ability to move as a Swift Action for a full minute, not just one round. And why exactly are you repeating this?
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each two daily turn or rebuke uses you expend. A 12-13 Charisma sets you up for 3 encounters daily.
I'd sooner choose Travel Devotion and power many swift action moves with my turn undead attempts. Get it now? You only start with one minute (one encounter or less) of swift action moves with Travel Devotion. If you want enough uses for the typical 3-4 encounters daily, you really do need to burn turn undead attempts to have sufficiently many swift action moves.

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 03:17 PM
Flame strike>Hellfire>Fireball.
Firestorm>Delayed Blast Fire>Hellfire storm.

Guess what? A cleric can have more fire storms prepared than a wizard can have delayed blast fire balls.

1) Direct Damage isn't the thing we are talking about, and isn't actually that impressive.

2) Fireball is actually better then Flamestrike. If you are going to be casting it at all, you'll make sure you can bypass resistance, like say, oh crap Searing Spell. Secondly, greater radius. Thirdly, Longer range. Fourthly. OMG Longer Range. Fifthly, lower level slot.

3) Actually, the Wizard can prepare way more, because he can do it in his 3rd/4th/and 5th level slots, compared to the Clerics 5th only.

Not to mention, if you actually are building a Direct Damage Wizard, then you could specialize, or even focused Specialize and get way more slots.

4) Orbs > Fireball > Flamestrike. Orbs have debuffing, do more damage, and are easier/better to meta up, in addition to ignoring SR and not being negated by every Rogue you meet.

Not to say the Fireball Crazy Wizard of Doom doing 70-150 damage per 3rd level spell at 1000s of feet isn't good. But the Cleric doing 100-150 damage to a smaller area at only 100s of feet with his 5th level spells isn't.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 04:46 PM
And Wizards can do all of that, but better, with better spells.
...Which means the Cleric can't actually do the things a Cleric can do?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-26, 04:52 PM
Getting back on-topic(I think, it's been a while), Why do so many people take the Undeath Domain? Extra Turning is nice, but if I'm reading it correctly, the various Elemental domains grant Turn attempts, with a seperate pool, that is enhanced on it's own by Cha or Extra Turning, and can still be sacrificed for Divine Feats.

I give it 2 minutes before this is disproven, 3 before someone provides links.

Volkov
2009-05-26, 04:57 PM
Getting back on-topic(I think, it's been a while), Why do so many people take the Undeath Domain? Extra Turning is nice, but if I'm reading it correctly, the various Elemental domains grant Turn attempts, with a seperate pool, that is enhanced on it's own by Cha or Extra Turning, and can still be sacrificed for Divine Feats.

I give it 2 minutes before this is disproven, 3 before someone provides links.

That's why I don't like it, I prefer the deathless domain, multiplying the undead I control by 1.5x is a major boost to an army at high levels. I prefer a home brewed version that Maximizes your rebuking damage.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 05:02 PM
I give it 2 minutes before this is disproven, 3 before someone provides links.

Most feats specify "Undead" when referring to the Turns that can be sacked to activate them.

And just for the sake of completion, here's a link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead

edit:
Looking back at the book, Divine Metamagic actually only says 'Undead' in a fluff passage. Not while describing the ability.
Divine Spell Power never uses the word.
All the Complete Warrior feats specify Undead.
Sacred Vengence is the only Libris Mortis feat that does.

I doubt many DMs would let DMM slide the way you say. DSP and the LM feats though, might have a chance.

yilduz
2009-05-26, 05:13 PM
I read the first couple of posts, then searched for every instance of "DMM" in this thread. It's really tough for me to read through something without knowing what a word or acronym means, especially one that is used many times throughout.

So... what is DMM? Once I know, it'll be easier to read the thread. Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 05:29 PM
Divine Metamagic, a feat from Complete Divine that allows burning turn attempts to mitigate the level adjustment of a metamagic feat.

yilduz
2009-05-26, 06:12 PM
Divine Metamagic, a feat from Complete Divine that allows burning turn attempts to mitigate the level adjustment of a metamagic feat.

That is pretty cool. I just read it and noticed that it doesn't say divine spells, it just simply says spells. Does that mean a Clr 1/Wiz ## can use this feat for his arcane spells?

monty
2009-05-26, 06:14 PM
That is pretty cool. I just read it and noticed that it doesn't say divine spells, it just simply says spells. Does that mean a Clr 1/Wiz ## can use this feat for his arcane spells?

No, the errata changed it to divine spells only.

yilduz
2009-05-26, 06:16 PM
No, the errata changed it to divine spells only.

Ah, that's cool. It makes sense, at least.

Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

edit: Whoo! I'm no longer a Pixie!:smallcool:

Dark_Scary
2009-05-26, 06:26 PM
One trick I've seen for DMM Persisting. You can be a Neutral Cleric who turns undead, and dip one level in Dread Necro. Double up on turns, since you can also use rebukes, and every Extra Turning feat grants 8 more turns. So a little over one spell.

Not for everyone, but if you need Arcane casting to get into Dweomer Keeper. That's a darn good way to do it.


...Which means the Cleric can't actually do the things a Cleric can do?

So CR 1/4 cats can trip? What's your point? If you do it badly, you still do it badly, no matter that you can "do" it. If you are below ECL incompetence at a task, such as using Mind affecting single target control at ECL 9, you can control things that aren't threats, but anything that is a threat, you can't control. So you are not a good controller.

Wizards are acceptable. Clerics are not.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-26, 06:53 PM
Divine Metamagic, a feat from Complete Divine that allows burning turn attempts to mitigate the level adjustment of a metamagic feat.

Don't forget DMM's cousin being an Illumian:
they can get 2/day DMM (no metamagic must be chosen ahead of time and cost = adjustment, instead of Cost+1)

So Persisting with DMM =7 turn attempts

Illumians can do it with 6 (2/day).

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 08:15 PM
So CR 1/4 cats can trip?
No, but CR 1/2 spiders can entangle.

But if you don't think any of the spells listed make a Cleric a competent battlefield controller, I don't know what to say.

And what 5th level mind-affecting single-target spell are you on about?
Searching the SRD, the only thing I can figure is a Heightened Hold Person (or Bane, I guess).