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karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 08:41 AM
Thought I'd toss this out to everyone because I'm having a difficult time deciding on one to make one effectively.

I've seen a couple suggestions in other forums, things like Chain trippers and shock troopers, etc. But I've always come across such threads a couple years too late to start replying to them. So I was hoping to get some ideas/feedback in a thread that I start so I at least have the opportunity to reply and ask further questions.

So where does the power truly lie in a 2handed fighter build?
Should I be completely focused on power attack? Or does my innate greed to sacrifice too much of my +hit to gain +dmg result in far fewer possible hits.
Should I focus on tripping with a large weapon like the chain of heavy flail? If so, should I then also include power attack?
Should it matter if I play such a character type as a fighter or barbarian, etc?

I also caught wind of a feat (or possibly a prc?) that allowed the option to substitute the +hit loss on power attack for +ac instead....thereby allowing me to still successfully hit the opponent for greater dmg but at the cost of AC. However I forget the name of this ability.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 08:56 AM
You should always include Power Attack when two-handing. It's just too good not to. Then you should add some stuff that enables more PAing (Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are relatively small investments that can get you a lot more mileage from the feat) and some auxillary abilities.

Tripping is great; as a two-hander, you'll be Str-focused anyways and if you Trip someone, they'll get -4 to AC meaning lots more Power Attack (same obviously goes to Flanking, Higher Ground and such; it's amazing how much attack bonus you can score by just taking advantage of your various options in combat).


And really, the best build would probably be a mix of Fighter and Barbarian; the early Fighter-levels get you a lot of feats (and if you go for it, Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] can be devastating, getting you all the goodies in 6 levels; add Knockback [Races of Stone] + Knock-Down [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)] and you're golden), while Barbarian adds to your Str-checks for Tripping and overall, gives you big bonuses (Whirling Frenzy [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)] is also great). Also, if you happen to be a Goliath, Barbarian-levels allow you to become Large, which happens to kick ass with a reach weapon.

But yeah, there are two major things you can focus on when two-handing: Damage and control. Control allows you to stop opponent from moving (Tripping, Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill), etc. with a large reach, lots of Strength and a Spiked Chain; lots of attack-of-opportunity feats, and Power Attack) and getting to the weaker party members, while damage allows you to crackdown trying to one-shot the biggest baddies (means picking up Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, as many charge multipliers and charge enables you can find, and so on).

Generally I like to combine the two, picking a modest amount of charging abilities and then focusing on tripping, area control and maybe bull rushing (if I have Dungeoncrasher).

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 08:59 AM
Tripping is great; as a two-hander, you'll be Str-focused anyways and if you Trip someone, they'll get -4 to AC meaning lots more Power Attack (same obviously goes to Flanking, Higher Ground and such; it's amazing how much attack bonus you can score by just taking advantage of your various options in combat).


This was actually another question of mine. Because you need to declare your intention to use Power Attack at the beginning of your attack action, doesn't this also mean you'll be taking a -4 to the trip attempt? I believe so. I guess it won't be too big an issue because it's a touch AC....

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 09:07 AM
This was actually another question of mine. Because you need to declare your intention to use Power Attack at the beginning of your attack action, doesn't this also mean you'll be taking a -4 to the trip attempt? I believe so. I guess it won't be too big an issue because it's a touch AC....

On the Touch Attack, yes, on the Strength check, no.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 09:13 AM
Don't forget that there is a feat that lets you have a buckler on and use it (Improved Buckler defense) which seems to work with a two-handed build. (Though there is some debate as to whether or not a two handed weapon qualifies given the wording). Just because you do TONS of damage doesn't mean you HAVE to give up all your AC ;)


I recommend you take it, even if some say it's not worth it, because not getting hit and then swallowed whole is a good thing, especially if you're battlefield control. Unless you want to just you know. Control his digestion.

Edit: And before you say it's only 1 AC, you can make it magical, put cool abilities on it, etc. Now, you can do the same with an animated tower shield, I know, but not everyone likes the flavor of that. If you do like the flavor of an animated tower shield, ignore this advice.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 09:14 AM
Don't forget that there is a feat that lets you have a buckler on and use it (Improved Buckler defense) which seems to work with a two-handed build. (Though there is some debate as to whether or not a two handed weapon qualifies given the wording). Just because you do TONS of damage doesn't mean you HAVE to give up all your AC ;)

I recommend you take it, even if some say it's not worth it, because not getting hit and then swallowed whole is a good thing, especially if you're battlefield control. Unless you want to just you know. Control his digestion.

Swallowing a two-hander whole seems like a mighty bad idea seeing how quickly you get out of there. But yeah, I'm gonna suggest against Improved Buckler Defense. Why? Two words: Animated Shield

EarFall
2009-05-26, 09:16 AM
Son of a.... you got to me before I edited. And also, animated shields aren't available until a decent level... also if he's using certain two handed weapons, he can't use them inside a creature.

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 09:22 AM
Well normally you're sacrificing from your attack roll to achieve the heightened damage for power attack. But I'm pretty sure theres a feat that allows you to substitute the attack roll penalty for an ac penalty instead....I just cant remember it.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 09:23 AM
Well normally you're sacrificing from your attack roll to achieve the heightened damage for power attack. But I'm pretty sure theres a feat that allows you to substitute the attack roll penalty for an ac penalty instead....I just cant remember it.

Not sure, but there's Banzai charge on the Ronin that does that, I believe.

Epinephrine
2009-05-26, 09:27 AM
You have to use a fun weapon. It gets boring to see the same few weapons over and over again, so pick something neat!

You could take a Sugliin*, for example, and be from a very rough, primitive society - or a student studying said society, who has decided to master this strange weapon. It's so clumsy that you can only make an attack with a full round action, until you buy the additional feat Sugliin Mastery.

*It's essentially a bunch of sharpened antlers tied to a long pole - it's a reach weapon.

Sugliin 35 gp 2d8 (×2) — 20 lb. Piercing and slashing

At low levels, when you're only making one attack per round, it's fine, and you just make certain to take Sugliin Mastery by 6th level.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 09:31 AM
You have to use a fun weapon. It gets boring to see the same few weapons over and over again, so pick something neat!

You could take a Sugliin*, for example, and be from a very rough, primitive society - or a student studying said society, who has decided to master this strange weapon. It's so clumsy that you can only make an attack with a full round action, until you buy the additional feat Sugliin Mastery.

*It's essentially a bunch of sharpened antlers tied to a long pole - it's a reach weapon.

Sugliin 35 gp 2d8 (×2) — 20 lb. Piercing and slashing

At low levels, when you're only making one attack per round, it's fine, and you just make certain to take Sugliin Mastery by 6th level.

I wouldn't say that's fine, you need it at level one, or you can't charge, or even move more than 5 feet and attack, unless you were mistaken about it being a full round action to swing it once. Also, you better have a nice long down-time, because you're never going to find one, or find a merchant who has one in stock. Other than that though, I have to admit it seems like a pretty badass weapon ;)

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 09:32 AM
It seems I answered my own question. Shock Trooper is the feat that substitutes attack roll penalty for ac penalty. But it can only be done during a power attack + charge action.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 09:34 AM
It seems I answered my own question. Shock Trooper is the feat that substitutes attack roll penalty for ac penalty. But it can only be done during a power attack + charge action.

BTW, I wouldn't build around ubercharging. If the DM is strict, it can be almost impossible to charge given ANYTHING, including 0th level spells.

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 09:39 AM
BTW, I wouldn't build around ubercharging. If the DM is strict, it can be almost impossible to charge given ANYTHING, including 0th level spells.

Actually my main concern with charging, is just the fact that I'm throwing myself into harms way....with the possibility of no backup arriving fast enough to save my @$$.

Charging a creature that could potentially have 2-4 attacks a round while my healers are still off in the background could spell disaster for me. I see so many 'ubercharging' build ideas floating around, but I fear them. I know full well the types of creatures our group come up against.

This is why I wanted to question the community for ideas on 2handed usage.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 09:46 AM
Learn to love your lack of AC. Pick up Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit and so on to trade hits. And always aim to drop what you charge. Also, use reach and control abilities to prevent efficient counterattacks; if you're large with a reach weapon, you'll have a 20' reach.

Couple that with Thicket of Blades [ToB Stance] or similar and you can Trip/Stand Still opponents before they can get to you. Of course, the guy you charged is another matter; you really, really want him dead if he's a tough melee brute too. Get a Cloak of Displacement ASAP though; miss chances >>>>> AC as a defense.

Keld Denar
2009-05-26, 09:58 AM
The trick is not to stray too far from your casters. Generally, its a good idea to stay close to them at the start of the battle, and wait for them to open up with some magic. If you beat them in init, delay your action. If your mage is competant, he should open up with some sort of croud control or disable, making it a lot safer for you to charge in.

Also, the greatest thing about charging, is its really only 2-3 feat above the normal PA that you take. PA is good. Always ALWAYS take PA. Above that, Improved Bullrush and then Shocktrooper at 6. From there, you are good. Maybe grab Leap Attack after that, if you feel up to it. Keep your BAB full or nearly full, and you are golden. From there, PrC or not at your leisure. I wouldn't go all out and try to use Battle Jump + Valorous Weapon + Headlong Rush + Reckless Rage + Frenzied Berzerker and all that, PA >IBR >ST>LA is plenty.

One thing you can do though, if you want to get some mileage out of your negative post-charge AC, is to take either Robiliar's Gambit (PHBII) or Karmic Strike (CWarrior). Karmic Strike gives you an AoO against anyone who HITS you, and is available earlier than RG, but requires 2 crappy feats (Dodge + Combat Expertese). RG gives you an AoO against anyone who ATTACKS you, but also gives them +4 damage per hit and requires a +12 BAB to take. Either/both will make it VERY painful for someone to attack you while you are vulnerable due to Shocktrooper. Alternatively, invest in a miss chance. Lesser Cloak of Displacement gives 20%, as does Martial Study (Shadow Hand Maneuver) + Martial Stance (Child of Shadows) for when you charge. Ring of Blinking gives 50%, but also gives all your opponents 20% unless you can mitigate it with Pierce Magical Concealment (CArcane).

@#$%#@! Eldariel NINJA! Go work on your Test of Might characters and quit ninjaing me!

:P

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 10:03 AM
Learn to love your lack of AC.

In our particular group, stacking AC has led to many disappointed players. The transition from 2e to 3.x for our group has basically changed the game from an AC heavy focus to an HP heavy focus. As NPCs tend to always hit ACs at stages of our progression that we have absolutely no ability to reach. It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough that most melee in our party are now far more concerned with stacking their CON score above their DEX/AC.

So lacking AC isn't a fear of mine. It's charging 40-60 feet ahead of my healers against an opponent (or multiple opponents) to get one massive swing in, not kill the target, then have it turn around and beat my like a drum. Chances are good my support won't reach me to heal me in a round or two...leaving me beaten/bloodied.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 10:08 AM
So lacking AC isn't a fear of mine. It's charging 40-60 feet ahead of my healers against an opponent (or multiple opponents) to get one massive swing in, not kill the target, then have it turn around and beat my like a drum. Chances are good my support won't reach me to heal me in a round or two...leaving me beaten/bloodied.

Bah, use your reach control abilities to hold other opponents at bay while you take another shot at Mr. Didnt Die To My Hundred Damage. This combined with illusionary defenses should keep you alive; screw healers, have the other party members crack skulls too (or even better, blind the opponents/split them up/whatever) and heal when there are none left to crack.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 10:14 AM
Common problem with 3.5, it's hard to get your AC up to a level where focusing on it is worth it. I have done it, a few characters can get truly outrageous AC's. I mean, in the 60's before level 20... which means the tarrasque needs a natural 20. Basically, either focus in it or don't, don't half ass AC is what I say. Sure, an animated shield is worth it because it doesn't take anything away, but don't take dodge or an AC boost if it's only going to make it "okay". Trading all your AC for power-attack on a charge can be VERY dangerous. Especially if it's a monster who might have a miss chance on him, or some way of avoiding your blow, or there was some other reason your attack was ineffective. Many would advise to PA to the max once you get that charging maneuver, but, as usual when it comes to D&D pick your battles. Sometimes the ubercharger just shouldn't charge.

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 10:16 AM
Any feat progression suggestions?

Not very often our group gets much past 10th level. Level range 8-10 is usually our cursed party death range. Just always the way it seems to workout.

So assuming a 9th Human Fighter, heres what I'm toying around with:
EWP: Spiked Chain
Jutonbrud
Combat Expertise
Imp trip
Power Attack
Stand Still
Leap Attack
WF: Chain????
WS: Chain????
GWF: Chain????

Thoughts? Should I concern myself at all with the spec/focus feats? Or toss them out for added versatility feats?

I'm actually pretty intrigued by the idea of the standstill feat, combined with Imp Trip....I should have an easier time at keeping distance. Then I just need to be concerned with those pesky 10' reach npcs.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 10:18 AM
Any feat progression suggestions?

Not very often our group gets much past 10th level. Level range 8-10 is usually our cursed party death range. Just always the way it seems to workout.

So assuming a 10th Human Fighter, heres what I'm toying around with:
EWP: Spiked Chain
Jutonbrud
Combat Expertise
Imp trip
Power Attack
Stand Still
Leap Attack
WF: Chain????
WS: Chain????
GWF: Chain????

Thoughts? Should I concern myself at all with the spec/focus feats? Or toss them out for added versatility feats?

I'm actually pretty intrigued by the idea of the standstill feat, combined with Imp Trip....I should have an easier time at keeping distance. Then I just need to be concerned with those pesky 10' reach npcs.

It depends on your campaign. In mine, most enemies are AC whores. Well, not most, but there's a LOT, so the WF feats are awesome. If your DM throws more brutes, then maybe they're not.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 10:35 AM
Thoughts? Should I concern myself at all with the spec/focus feats? Or toss them out for added versatility feats?
Unless you get a lot of attacks per round (like a Multiweapon Fighting Thrower or something), skip them.

Get yourself a nice Tactical Feat (The 3 big names from Complete Warrior are all nice), an Improved [Maneuver] feat or some defenses (Complete Champion's Resolute ACF comes to mind, as does the PHB2 Combat Focus/Stability/Vigor chain).

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 10:45 AM
Common problem with 3.5, it's hard to get your AC up to a level where focusing on it is worth it. I have done it, a few characters can get truly outrageous AC's. I mean, in the 60's before level 20... which means the tarrasque needs a natural 20.

The Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) has +57 to his primary and +52 to his secondary attacks; you'd need to be near 80 for it to need to be rolling 20s.


As for your feats, don't bother with the WF-line; you can get bigger benefits from adding more tools to your arsenal. For example, Combat Reflexes + Deft Opportunist [Complete Adventurer] + Martial Study: Foehammer (or anything, really) + Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades [Tome of Battle] allows you to make a crapton of attacks of opportunity at +4 bonus.

Add to that Robilar's Gambit [PHBII] and Karmic Strike [CWar] and opponents will rue the day they hit you back (full Shock Trooper Leap Attack charge, full attack; opponent takes a beating - once he hits you back, for every one of his attacks, you hit him back twice with the full bonuses).


Basically, you charge in there and trade hits with everything you face until they're all dead (of course tripping everything you can while they approach; Thicket of Blades means any movement in your threatened area provokes so as long as you've got Enlarge Person cast on you, you should be able to stop most characters from ever getting to you). And yes, you'll want to max Con.


I'd go Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/whatever. Barbarian 2 using the Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) to get Improved Trip without needing Combat Expertise and 13 Int (also, you get Rage; I still suggest Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) since extra attacks kick ass even though you don't get the tasty Con-bonus), while switching out Fast Movement for Pounce [Complete Champion] to make your Charges ever more deadly.

So like this:

Barbarian 1: Jotunbrud, EWP, (Pounce)
Barbarian 2: Improved Trip
Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 2: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 3:
Fighter 4: Shock Trooper, Leap Attack
Whatever:
Whatever:
Whatever: Stand Still
Whatever:


Ideally, the "Whatever"-levels would grant you extra feats so you could pick:
-Deft Opportunist
-Martial Study + Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (or just pick two levels in Crusader)
-Extra Rage (your Rage-abilities are nice so getting extra uses of them kicks ass)

Other stuff you'd do well to get:
-Dodge+Karmic Strike (something to consider; if you end up with Combat Expertise, this is great - otherwise wait for level 12 and pick Robilar's Gambit only)
-Resolute (Fighter ACF from Complete Champion; can be taken instead of any Fighter bonus feats, allows you to lose ½ your BAB as an immediate action and add it to your Will-saves; one of the best ways ever not to become the Evil Wizard's Buttmonkey)
-Dodge+Mobility > Elusive Target [CWar] (if you don't want to get beat up with your own weapons; might give the DM ideas though)
-Improved Sunder > Combat Brute [CWar] (Momentum Swing is fun)

Keld Denar
2009-05-26, 11:04 AM
One of my favorite "fighter" builds atm is thus.

Dwarf
Ranger1
Dwarf Fighter1
Fighter2
Barbarian1
Barbarian2
Deepwarden1
Deepwarden2
Exotic Weapon Master1
XXX

Deepwarden and Dwarf Fighter Alt Class Feature are both from Races of the Stone. Feat progression would be thusly:

1 Endurance
2 Weapon Focus: Axes (part of the Dwarf Fighter ACF)
3 Power Attack, Steadfast Determination (PHBII)
6 Improved Bullrush
9 Shocktrooper

For a weapon, take either a Dwarven Waraxe (EWM gets you Uncanny Blow, 2x str bonus) or a Dwarven Urgrosh (EWM gets you Flurry of Strikes for an extra attack). If you use the Urgrosh, only attack with the axe end while wielding it as a 2handed weapon, rather than a double weapon. The fact that it IS a double weapon qualifies you for Flurry of Strikes, even if you aren't using it as a double weapon.

Steadfast Determination allows you to use your Con for your will save instead of wisdom. As a raging dwarf barbarian, that gives you a huge bonus to your will save. Deepwarden allows you to use your Con instead of Dex for AC bonus. That means you can now dump EVERY stat except Str and Con. Channel all your resources into them and go to town!

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 11:04 AM
In our campaigns, getting multiple AoOs are relatively rare. Or at least rare enough that feats like combat reflexes + Deft Opportunist would be less of a desirable path to take.

What I'm considering to do now is, add Imp Disarm to my feat list instead of either the WF or WS feats. That way I could potentially trip an opponent 10' from me, then disarm him on my free attack gained for tripping him. Thus leaving him having to both get up and retrieve his weapon....which will in turn grant me at least 1 AoO to put him back on his @$$. Thats the theory at least.

Maneuvers is something not often (or if ever) seen in with our group. Nobody really does a bull rush or overrun in our group. A buddy of mine made a grappler fighter, and I've made one attempt in the past to make a tripping fighter and thats really the most we've seen. No one likes to see anyone trying to sunder our opponents weapons, thats always looked down upon. What good is destroying the potential loot in the eyes of our players hehe.

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 11:09 AM
In our campaigns, getting multiple AoOs are relatively rare. Or at least rare enough that feats like combat reflexes + Deft Opportunist would be less of a desirable path to take.

That's what the other feats are for. Robilar's Gambit means opponent provokes an AoO every time he attacks you. Thicket of Blades means he provokes an AoO for moving within your threatened range (which is easily 20') even if he's Tumbling, Spring Attacking or whatever. With those two feats and Enlarge Person (seriously, get it Permanencied on you or something), people will be provoking all over the place making those feats worth it.


What I'm considering to do now is, add Imp Disarm to my feat list instead of either the WF or WS feats. That way I could potentially trip an opponent 10' from me, then disarm him on my free attack gained for tripping him. Thus leaving him having to both get up and retrieve his weapon....which will in turn grant me at least 1 AoO to put him back on his @$$. Thats the theory at least.

Unfortunately drawing a weapon doesn't provoke AoO for whatever reason so unless he only has one weapon available, he can just draw another one. Getting up, on the other hand, does provoke. But yeah, Improved Trip is worth it if you only fight against opponents using weapons. It grows subpar swiftly if you start running into monsters (using natural weapons) or spellcasters instead though.


Maneuvers is something not often (or if ever) seen in with our group. Nobody really does a bull rush or overrun in our group. A buddy of mine made a grappler fighter, and I've made one attempt in the past to make a tripping fighter and thats really the most we've seen. No one likes to see anyone trying to sunder our opponents weapons, thats always looked down upon. What good is destroying the potential loot in the eyes of our players hehe.

Yeah, Sundering is bad. Improved Sunder is a prerequisite for Combat Brute though and Combat Brute has a handy ability for Power Attack boosting (Momentum Swing). And Bull Rushing is rarely good (basically only when fighting in places where you can push people into pools of lava or off a cliff or some such), except if you're a Dungeoncrasher [Dungeonscape].

It's a Fighter Alternative Class Feature that allows you to deal 8d6+3xStr damage every time you Bull Rush an opponent to a wall (on level 6; level 2 version only gives you 4d6+2xStr damage).

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 11:14 AM
In our campaigns, getting multiple AoOs are relatively rare. Or at least rare enough that feats like combat reflexes + Deft Opportunist would be less of a desirable path to take.
This is what Thicket of Blades & Improved Trip try to fix.


What I'm considering to do now is, add Imp Disarm to my feat list instead of either the WF or WS feats. That way I could potentially trip an opponent 10' from me, then disarm him on my free attack gained for tripping him. Thus leaving him having to both get up and retrieve his weapon....which will in turn grant me at least 1 AoO to put him back on his @$$. Thats the theory at least.
Remember that Improved Trip is already an effective +8 to Disarm, but if you're fighting humanoids often it could be worthwhile.


Maneuvers is something not often (or if ever) seen in with our group. Nobody really does a bull rush or overrun in our group. A buddy of mine made a grappler fighter, and I've made one attempt in the past to make a tripping fighter and thats really the most we've seen. No one likes to see anyone trying to sunder our opponents weapons, thats always looked down upon. What good is destroying the potential loot in the eyes of our players hehe.Look at some of the wonderful feats these feats open: Improved Bull Rush, on top of giving another option in combat, opens Shock Trooper. And ST is full of chargey trippy goodness.

And sundering is very nice against spell components and holy symbols. It also meets the requirements of Combat Brute, which isn't a bad feat at all. But yeah, sundering weapons is pretty hit or miss, depending on your group.

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 11:17 AM
Unfortunately drawing a weapon doesn't provoke AoO for whatever reason so unless he only has one weapon available, he can just draw another one. Getting up, on the other hand, does provoke. But yeah, Improved Trip is worth it if you only fight against opponents using weapons. It grows subpar swiftly if you start running into monsters (using natural weapons) or spellcasters instead though.

Right, but when facing an opponent with only 1 weapon available to him, I'd think that if he was forced to both stand up and pickup his weapon...that I'd gain a new AoO.

To me trip is good against any opponent, natural weapons or not. Reducing their AC by 4 points by simply keeping them on the ground is a big advantage...especially if I'm going to go the distance to crank up my PA bonus.

Alternatively even if the npc has natural weapons and just has to withdraw stand up to avoid my AoO, if I'm 10' away and he has no reach he'd need to step into me... Thus provoking an AoO.

Or am I making false assumptions in here? Sorry, I'm at work also hehe :)

Eldariel
2009-05-26, 11:20 AM
Or am I making false assumptions in here? Sorry, I'm at work also hehe :)

Trip is good. Disarm, not so much. The point I'm trying to make is that Trip is indeed usable almost always, but Disarm is only usable in very specific circumstances and you don't necessary need it in those circumstances to win anyways so burning a feat on Tripping is a great plan, while burning a feat on Disarming...not so much except for a very specific kind of a campaign.

daggaz
2009-05-26, 11:26 AM
One of my favorite fighter builds I ever did was in a (that campaign with the damned magic trains) campaign.

It went..

Dwarf Cleric.

I took travel and strength as my domains and thanks to the more lenient deity system in that campaign world, got to use a halberd you know I think I actually burned a feat on weapon proficiency... Took improved trip and had a field day with enlarge person (domain sp) and dwarven stability. By the time I could cast righteous might and all of that, I didnt care less about the fighter feats I had given up, clerical spells rock, especially when you have freedom of movement and teleport and such in your domain.

Hmm I might have actually gone Fighter 1 Cleric etc.. for the extra feats, we were never going to make it to twentieth anyhow..

EarFall
2009-05-26, 11:27 AM
Eh, I apologize for my aforementioned ideas, I assumed the wrong kind of campaign. I, and one of the other DM's I play for, will immediately say no to the spike chain trip machines, whereas one of my DMs prefers us to make powerhouses. If your DM is more of the second variety, the trip machining for huge damage IS a great way to go, and much more flexible than an unbercharger, which can negated by "readied action caltrops."

Berserk Monk
2009-05-26, 11:30 AM
You should always include Power Attack when two-handing. It's just too good not to. Then you should add some stuff that enables more PAing (Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are relatively small investments that can get you a lot more mileage from the feat) and some auxillary abilities.

Tripping is great; as a two-hander, you'll be Str-focused anyways and if you Trip someone, they'll get -4 to AC meaning lots more Power Attack (same obviously goes to Flanking, Higher Ground and such; it's amazing how much attack bonus you can score by just taking advantage of your various options in combat).


And really, the best build would probably be a mix of Fighter and Barbarian; the early Fighter-levels get you a lot of feats (and if you go for it, Dungeoncrasher Fighter [Dungeonscape] can be devastating, getting you all the goodies in 6 levels; add Knockback [Races of Stone] + Knock-Down [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)] and you're golden), while Barbarian adds to your Str-checks for Tripping and overall, gives you big bonuses (Whirling Frenzy [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/)] is also great). Also, if you happen to be a Goliath, Barbarian-levels allow you to become Large, which happens to kick ass with a reach weapon.

You know what would work great for this: frenzied berserker. barbarian (and maybe fighter too, I mean, once you get rage, there's little need to keep going barbarian). They have this one ability that let's you subtract one point from your attack roll when power attack and add five to the damage when wielding a two handed weapon (so subtract 5, deal 25 damage with a two handed weapon).

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 11:37 AM
One of my favorite fighter builds I ever did was in a (that campaign with the damned magic trains) campaign.

It went..

Dwarf Cleric.

I took travel and strength as my domains and thanks to the more lenient deity system in that campaign world, got to use a halberd you know I think I actually burned a feat on weapon proficiency... Took improved trip and had a field day with enlarge person (domain sp) and dwarven stability. By the time I could cast righteous might and all of that, I didnt care less about the fighter feats I had given up, clerical spells rock, especially when you have freedom of movement and teleport and such in your domain.

Hmm I might have actually gone Fighter 1 Cleric etc.. for the extra feats, we were never going to make it to twentieth anyhow..

Thats a nifty idea. I was actually considering a pally with heavy flail and imp trip to knock the enemy on his arse and then smite him :) But the ability to cast enlarge is a good one.

Deepblue706
2009-05-26, 11:52 AM
For a charging build I must suggest you try to pick up Combat Acrobat, which can be selected as a Fighter Bonus Feat. Requires 9 ranks in Balance and Tumble (which means without getting them as class skills you're going to be waiting until level 15), but they help you get through difficult terrain; which is a pain-in-the-neck for chargers (as you can't charge through anything that hampers your movement). It's in the PHB2, check it out if you've got it.

You're going to be short on skills if you pursue this, but thankfully, both skills are great and have synergy with the stuff you want anyway. Tumble makes your Jump better (good for Leap Attack), and also even lets you move through enemy spaces. Balance helps with mobility in precarious environments.

EarFall
2009-05-26, 11:54 AM
Frenzied berserkers do not make good PC's, though they look good on paper, and can be a good NPCs, because of the crap that makes you start attacking allies if everything drops, etc.

Keld Denar
2009-05-26, 11:56 AM
You can actually make an interesting tripper that way. There is a PrC in Complete Champion for clerics called Ordained Champion that lets you trade Turn Undead attempts for Smite attempts. There is a feat in Complete Champion called Awesome Smite that gives you some tactical maneuvers when you smite. One of the maneuvers lets you knock someone down when you smite them. If you have Improved Trip, you can smite to knock someone down, and then hit them again after they fall.

Cleric3/PrestigePally3/OrdainedChamp5/FistofRazriel9 would be pretty decent, if I remember the prereqs for Prestige Pally correctly. Lots of smitey goodness with all the bonuses that come with it.

daggaz
2009-05-26, 11:59 AM
Thats a nifty idea. I was actually considering a pally with heavy flail and imp trip to knock the enemy on his arse and then smite him :) But the ability to cast enlarge is a good one.

Stability is a must have on trip builds if you cant get a size bonus, (bonuses or not, you will eventually fail that str check) and Dwarves are nicely overpowered :smallwink: so a dwarven Paladin wouldn't be horrible. Just eat the charisma minus for dinner, by high levels you will have stat boosting eq.

You can always get the wizard to enlarge you, saves you a round in the fight, and potions are doable as well.

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-26, 12:09 PM
...if I remember the prereqs for Prestige Pally correctly. Lots of smitey goodness with all the bonuses that come with it.
That BA +4 thing's going to be a hold-up. I think level 6 is the earliest entry unless you're somehow using Paladin to enter.

But Fighter 1/Cleric 4/Ordained Champion isn't a bad setup either.
I don't remember the requirements for Fist of Raziel, but you get 2 spare feats this way.
And that never hurts.

karnalsyn
2009-05-26, 12:12 PM
Stability is a must have on trip builds if you cant get a size bonus, (bonuses or not, you will eventually fail that str check) and Dwarves are nicely overpowered :smallwink: so a dwarven Paladin wouldn't be horrible. Just eat the charisma minus for dinner, by high levels you will have stat boosting eq.

You can always get the wizard to enlarge you, saves you a round in the fight, and potions are doable as well.

Thats where the feat Jotunbrud comes in nicely....granting the +4 to str checks made on opposed rolls. Giving you the added option of playing a tripper effectively with a human.

Quietus
2009-05-26, 12:46 PM
Frenzied berserkers do not make good PC's, though they look good on paper, and can be a good NPCs, because of the crap that makes you start attacking allies if everything drops, etc.

With Steadfast Determination, or whatever it was called, that con-to-will-saves makes you much more reliable at ending your Frenzy.

bobspldbckwrds
2009-05-26, 02:40 PM
didn't read the whole thread, but i have a fix for the ubercharger builds getting you too far away from your comrades. harness with a pull-string release, and small sized comrades