So if V stands his ground...

[WarriorTribble]

Assuming V decides to not run but fight. What chance does he have against Xykon? From the looks of things, V is badly hurt, but should still have most of his spells left. Also, now that the splice has worn off he can actually utilize all of that juicy elven brain of his and actually (and ironically) fight better this time around.

[puzpuz]

The way I see it, he has no chance right now... His fail wasn't just a simple fail, it was sybmbolic, to show him that he can not defeat Xykon, at least not right now.

[Zerg Cookie]

No chance.
Even with full spells, a level 14 or so wizard can't beat an epic level 26 (Or more) sorcerer. Even if said sorcerer spent some spell slots already, he still has tons of spells left (We saw him cast like 6 spells at most, Xykon has 6 slots per spell level (Including 0-level spells), not counting the spells he get from high charisma, epic spell slots and the slots from epic feats

[Orkl]

Pretty much 0%. His HP is probably around 1-5 at this point, so he could cast off one offensive spell against X before he'd finish him off. Of course, if O'chul still has any fight left in him (>0 hp), that would increase their chances of survival slightly but not enough. So it's pretty much up to MiTD to save either or both of them...

[RMS Oceanic]

(S)he won't defeat Xykon, but I think (s)he now faces a choice: flee like the last time, leaving Azurites to suffer, or at least score some damage against Xykon. If we assume the phylactery is warded enough that neither V or O-Chul could hope to damage it in the limited timeframe they have, that leaves two options: MitD or the Snarl.

[Starscream]

No chance. Xykon has defeated epic spellcasters like Dorukan and Lirian before, no way V is going to triumph.

Escape is not out of the question, though. Xykon has a short attention span, and tends not to think things through. Without Redcloak or Jirix to provide the voice of reason, something could easily distract him long enough for V to flee.

My money is on the "something" either being O-Chul (whose legendary toughness might buy a few rounds, even with the punishment he's already taken), or the MiTD, attempting to either save O-Chul's life or avenge his death.

[Dagren]

Assuming V decides to not run but fight......she dies. I can't think of any other outcome. She can survive, but winning is no longer a realistic possibility. (See #467 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html), second page, first panel)

[Ladorak]

Not that I think it's gonna happen, but it's worth noting that after an empowered sunburst :xykon: hitpoints have to be running pretty damn low, some direct damage might actually drop him.

V's choices are rather limited however. :xykon:'s next spell is almost certainly going to be a quickened see invisibility or True Seeing, so V only has 1-2 turns to pull something off, and his/her position will be givenaway as soon as s/he opens that door regardless.

The narrative suggests V should get away, not sure how tho, maybe MitD will provide a distraction of some kind

[NerfTW]

Don't forget that Xykon has been spending eight hours a day making magic items to protect himself for the last 3+ months, as mentioned way back during the torture sequence, and evidenced by his immunity to his Meteor Swarm spell.

So odds are V wouldn't even be able to hurt Xykon with any of the spells he prepared.

[Ancalagon]

So if V stands his ground...

... he'll lose.

That was an easy one.

The question is more: Which other players remain on the field? Will Tsukiko come back (and thus open the door for Vaarsuvius)? What will monster-san do? Will the fiends send the imp? Will someone else (who could that be?) show up on the scene?

[T-O-E]

If they could send an imp, they would. Don't think they can breach the cloister.

[petersohn]

I cast Elan's Dramatic Plot Analysis. Let's see.

Knowing what the fiends said, we must conclude that the Greater Good demands that V must die: it would ruin the fiends' plan, which is, whatever is, must be very nasty. If V dies, it won't happen. And this is the reason that V won't die (he may, later, but not now).

[Berserk Monk]

Assuming V decides to not run but fight. What chance does he have against Xykon? From the looks of things, V is badly hurt, but should still have most of his spells left. Also, now that the splice has worn off he can actually utilize all of that juicy elven brain of his and actually (and ironically) fight better this time around.

V's lower level. V gets less spells per day. V use a d4 HD, while Xykon, being an undead lich, gets a d12, and has a bunch of special abilities. Xykon already kicked the crap out of V.

Yeah, this fight isn't completely one-sided.

[Simanos]

It would be funny if V picked up the phylactery since it would then become invisible too, but the fun would only last until Xykon cast See Invisible the next round, so not a good plan.

[shadzar]

I think it would be about the same as when Belkar lit the bandit camp on fire and we would just see a smoldering partially invisible V.

[WarriorTribble]

Hmm, the general mindset is V will die. How about this then. How can V attack Xykon (or do whatever it'll take to save O-chul) without dying himself? The wizard has a serious case of survivors guilt, and will only make things worse for himself if he runs now especially since unlike last time he's chock full of arcane power. On the otherhand if he saves O-chul, while the paladin might be blunt, I think he could help V get over his little personal guilt trip.

Also, lets face it, if he runs, Xykon will track him down and kill him anyways. We know that Cloister doesn't prevent scrys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) on creatures within the spell itself. A lich who's staving off bordom with zombie gladiators will jump at the chance to kill anything with even a slight challenge.

I'm guessing he'll disintegrate the MitD's cage, and try to use the ensuing chaos to save O-chul.

[shadzar]

O'Chul is probably already out of it at -HP and falling like Xykon likes to keep them at. V's best way to fight right now would be to do the smart thing for the second time and RUN!

[ericgrau]

@ Deiverance's post: There's 101 ways for both casters and martial characters to take down all of the silly-easy-to-hit mirror images in the same 1 round it takes to cast the spell (and/or hurt the caster in the process). It's pretty much only useful in special circumstances and in gaming groups that don't know the rules too well. A lot of other comments from optimizers tend to be the same way, or at least not much better than the options used, or cheesy and questionable. And it's not like the characters are perfect. Or Rich's answer from the FAQ is that when characters do something really dumb it's for the sake of humor/etc.

As for shapechange (speculation):

If V's shapechange is still active, though it was probably dispelled, then he might transform into a bird or roach, or mole or something and get away. But I think Rich has something in mind that doesn't come from the splice. I dunno what, exactly, but I think V's splice abilities are hosed for the purpose of the plot. Maybe there's a random minor buff or two still active, but I doubt we'll hear about it.

[Ahp77]

I don't think The Giant would let V die yet. But, remember what the Oracle said to Elan: Yes, this story will have a happy ending, for you at least

[Scarlet Knight]

V will need to run, but what can he do first? Can he help O-Chul get a few smite evls in on Xykon? Can he grab the phylactery before escaping leaping out the window with a feather fall?

[Douglas]

As for shapechange (speculation):

If V's shapechange is still active, though it was probably dispelled, then he might transform into a bird or roach, or mole or something and get away. But I think Rich has something in mind that doesn't come from the splice. I dunno what, exactly, but I think V's splice abilities are hosed for the purpose of the plot. Maybe there's a random minor buff or two still active, but I doubt we'll hear about it.

Not a factor. Shapechange came from the splice, and any spell [V casts] with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire (panel 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).

[David Argall]

If they could send an imp, they would. Don't think they can breach the cloister.
Assuming they can appear on the material plane at all, the fiends can pass thru the cloister at whim. It's tissue paper to them. We have seen V pass thru it and the fiends are way above super-V.
Their problem is that they are [more or less] under the same rules as the gods. They can only appear on the material plane at all under very limited conditions and for very limited purposes. That makes it very hard for them to appear to V anywhere. But Cloister makes no difference.

Now to the basic theme of the thread. Having 13th level V beat Xykon when 60th level V could not is rather pushing it. However...
V and O-Chul play tag-team. V will now distract Xykon for a few frames, only to have O-Chul do something that draws Xykon's attention for a bit, and then V does something, and then... They don't manage to hurt Xykon much, but they do get a chance to escape out the new "window", and V uses her super-Feather Fall to allow them to survive the fall. From there, they may manage to find the resistance.

[seanearlyaug]

Pretty much 0%. His HP is probably around 1-5 at this point, so he could cast off one offensive spell against X before he'd finish him off. Of course, if O'chul still has any fight left in him (>0 hp), that would increase their chances of survival slightly but not enough. So it's pretty much up to MiTD to save either or both of them...

Some time now the res will be finished, and maybe the whole gang is on its way now. Who know? I doubt that any at X's place can defeat him.

Sean

[Kalbron]

Even if the rest of the OotS is on their way... it doesn't matter at all. They're on the other side of the world compared with Azure City. Unless something gets pulled out of their ass and the Azurites say "Oh yeah, we actually did have another high level arcanist with the ability to teleport a group. Sorry we didn't say anything earlier.", V is on his own.

And if he fights, he dies. If he flees, he might live, and he might be able to inform his party about how much more dangerous Xykon is than they thought.

Personally I'd label the second as the smarter, better, option, but plenty of posters seem to want V to turn around and waste his life simply because it would be heroic. Death isn't redeeming, it simply means you can no longer work towards redemption.

[kalkyrie]

In theory, a Disintegrate could destroy the phylectary (depending on wards), or a Lich who doesn't know where you are and is thus Flat-footed. (Shatter also useful?)

In this story- probably throwing life away.

[Zevox]

How about this then. How can V attack Xykon (or do whatever it'll take to save O-chul) without dying himself?
She can't. Just look at the shape she's in, and the beating she has already received. Xykon could probably kill her with a Magic Missile right now. Drawing his attention will only get her killed (if Xykon uses a damaging attack) or captured (if he uses something non-lethal, like his Forcecage).

Besides, given Xykon is now focusing on V again anyway, odds are O-Chul is either dead, unconscious, or otherwise captured himself. Making it pointless to try and help him anyway.


I'm guessing he'll disintegrate the MitD's cage, and try to use the ensuing chaos to save O-chul.
Doubtful. V knows almost nothing about MitD, other than that he's Xykon's pet and was being touted as a secret weapon back at the Dungeon of Dorukon. (Remember, only Haley and Belkar were there when he met them retrieving Roy's body, which is the only time he and the Order have been in contact with each other.) She has no reason to believe disintegrating his cage would help her at all, and every reason to believe that giving up her invisibility that way will cause her to lose her one shot at getting away.

Plus, really, that wouldn't work unless the Monster decides to rebel against Xykon anyway. Which is possible at this point, but hardly guaranteed.

Zevox

[OldFart]

In theory, a Disintegrate could destroy the phylectary (depending on wards), or a Lich who doesn't know where you are and is thus Flat-footed. (Shatter also useful?)

Maybe-spoiler??
Both disintegrate and shatter could destroy a phylactery. Or, Invisibility and any or several forms of illusionary trickery could make a lich think it had been destroyed. Spells directed against unattended objects do not end Invisibility.

Xykon is all about staying alive. He has no idea if the elf was attacking alone, or was the first wave. If he thinks his "soul-hidey-place" is gone, then he knows all a potential enemy has to do is destroy his body, and it's all over. He's already wounded, and there are no clerics present w/ inflict and/or harm spells. He'll rabbit, because it guarantees his survival. He'll run because he cares more about himself than any city or army he's leading. Xykon has always been particularly smart in taking his lumps and fighting another day.

So, you don't have to kill Xykon - just make him think death is an actual possibility.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

If he flees, he might live, and he might be able to inform his party about how much more dangerous Xykon is than they thought.

Heheh

:vaarsuvius: - Even with incomparable arcane power I was defeated. Xykon is much more dangerous then we thought.

:roy: - I could have told you that if you had waited.

:elan: - It's true. The moment Roy came back he said "Xykon is much more dangerous then we thought. V should have waited."

:vaarsuvius: - *Grinds teeth*

[Mystic Muse]

@^

*laughs* I'm actually pretty schlect wort* sure that's going to happen.

*not a curse word. it's German for "bad word" don't believe me look it up in a german english dictionary.

[Orkl]

Back on the topic, what would actually be the best spell V could use(of course we don't know all the songs he knows/has memorized), if he wants to have one last chance to damage Xykon? I guess it's been assumed he's a lvl 14 caster, so he would have lvl 7 spells (I think). Xykon is naturally immune to cold/electric damage, plus he's apparently immune to fire too through a magic item. So, what COULD work? Prismatic Spray? Magic Missile?

[ambartanen]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that V is far from having all his spells- he used up almost all of his high level spells when he was throwing all those disintegrates at Qarr. That said, V still has quite a few options left, it's just that none of them are very good:

1. She probably has access to many spells that can distract Xykon (Otto's irresistible sphere, force cage, Bigby's grasping hand, Wall of force and so on). Of course, each one of those can be countered in a single round and V has no hope of beating an epic sorcerer in a war of spell attrition. So this is only good if someone comes to her aid (who that might be, I have no idea- O'Chul does not pose enough of a threat unless Xykon is extremely low on hp and the MitD wouldn't really come to V's aid even if he did decide to rebel).

2. She can target the phylactery with a variety of spells- as someone already mentioned her best options are maximized magic missile (which would likely destroy it unless it has a permanent shield cast on it) and shatter (which should definitely destroy it and I have no idea how the phylactery can be protected from that spell unless it counts as a creature for some reason). It is almost certainly protected from all kinds of elemental damage and even spells like telekinesis that could do physical damage, probably do not deal enough of it. If V DID manage to destroy the phylactery, Xykon would probably err on the side of safety and leave, letting the minions take care of them.

3. Conjuration is probably the most useful school in this case as it allows V to run and/or hide taking O'Chul along with spells like dimension door, teleport, solid fog, fog cloud and even obscuring mist. Unfortunately this is one of V's prohibited schools and so she has no access to most of these spells. Perhaps ethereal jaunt or rope trick can be used in their place?

4. Direct attack is pretty much the dumbest way for V to stand up to the lich. Xykon is immune to elemental damage (with the possible exception of sonic and acid but he can easily acquire a resistance if he needs to), magic missile, mind-affecting, ... well, pretty much every damaging or harmful spell wizards have. Sunburst is too high level and so are the save-or-die spells which affect undead so a direct confrontation is foolish.

5. A cleverly crafted illusion seems like V's best option to me, although that depends more on what he show Xykon and not on which spell he actually uses. Perhaps she can get the lich to fight the second wave of the elvish attack while she runs away with O'Chul?

[Simanos]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that V is far from having all his spells- he used up almost all of his high level spells when he was throwing all those disintegrates at Qarr. That said, V still has quite a few options left, it's just that none of them are very good:

1. She probably has access to many spells that can distract Xykon (Otto's irresistible sphere, force cage, Bigby's grasping hand, Wall of force and so on). Of course, each one of those can be countered in a single round and V has no hope of beating an epic sorcerer in a war of spell attrition. So this is only good if someone comes to her aid (who that might be, I have no idea- O'Chul does not pose enough of a threat unless Xykon is extremely low on hp and the MitD wouldn't really come to V's aid even if he did decide to rebel).

2. She can target the phylactery with a variety of spells- as someone already mentioned her best options are maximized magic missile (which would likely destroy it unless it has a permanent shield cast on it) and shatter (which should definitely destroy it and I have no idea how the phylactery can be protected from that spell unless it counts as a creature for some reason). It is almost certainly protected from all kinds of elemental damage and even spells like telekinesis that could do physical damage, probably do not deal enough of it. If V DID manage to destroy the phylactery, Xykon would probably err on the side of safety and leave, letting the minions take care of them.

3. Conjuration is probably the most useful school in this case as it allows V to run and/or hide taking O'Chul along with spells like dimension door, teleport, solid fog, fog cloud and even obscuring mist. Unfortunately this is one of V's prohibited schools and so she has no access to most of these spells. Perhaps ethereal jaunt or rope trick can be used in their place?

4. Direct attack is pretty much the dumbest way for V to stand up to the lich. Xykon is immune to elemental damage (with the possible exception of sonic and acid but he can easily acquire a resistance if he needs to), magic missile, mind-affecting, ... well, pretty much every damaging or harmful spell wizards have. Sunburst is too high level and so are the save-or-die spells which affect undead so a direct confrontation is foolish.

5. A cleverly crafted illusion seems like V's best option to me, although that depends more on what he show Xykon and not on which spell he actually uses. Perhaps she can get the lich to fight the second wave of the elvish attack while she runs away with O'Chul?
Magic Missile won't work on the phylactery. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
I doubt illusion would work here.

[Silakka]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that V is far from having all his spells- he used up almost all of his high level spells when he was throwing all those disintegrates at Qarr. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html third panel, "though on the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the Soul Splice will allow you to start with all spell slots fully replenished".

[SadisticFishing]

V got all his spells back when he took the splice. Nothing was wasted on Qarr.

[Nerdanel]

I guess something like a "Disintegrate. Quickened Magic Missile," could work if Xykon's hitpoints are currently low enough. V nearly hit with his first Disintegrate and Xykon being deprived of his dex bonus to AC could make all the difference.

Other than that, V is down to a massive gamble that probably won't work with Prismatic Spray, or perhaps using Veil to make himself look like a random goblin or even Tsukiko if he can manage it and pretend to have just stepped in from the door, hoping that Xykon wasn't looking at him when the change happened. Outside of spells we know he has, Mislead could be very useful if used intelligently, making Xykon waste several turns trying to kill an illusory double while V himself is under Greater Invisibility and free to attack. A Limited Wish could also be useful in many ways.

[afu]

V has to stand his ground.

If he doesn't it will be a major depture from standard fantasy plot rules, and will mean that this web comic will be going in very strange directions,

like Roy not winning or V killing all of oots.

[factotum]

I don't agree at all. Many fantasy stories have the hero or heroes suffering a major setback (or more than one setback) on the way to defeating the Big Bad (see Frodo getting imprisoned in the Tower of Cirith Ungol), and V having to run screaming like a little girl at this point would just be another one.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

A Limited Wish could also be useful in many ways.
Why a conjuration prohibited evoker of V's level would not have Limited Wish memorized can only be explained in-character. V is not, has never been about optimization as in out-of-character optimization although V has always been concerned with power in-character (and the same can be said about Belkar). That is, V (in-character) is concerned with blasting, transforming and otherwise dominating the world around him. V is not concerned (out-of-character) with being an optimized wizard. Otherwise, he would not be an evoker and he would have Limited Wish.

That being said, it's hard to understand why anyone would disagree with the assessment of V's situation by the fiend with the glowing orangy speech bubbles, "Get out of there already."

[David Argall]

I'm wondering if we are about to ...
...have a game of keep away.
V sneaks up and grabs phylactery. Xykon tries to grab it. V tosses it to O-Chul, who runs a bit with Xykon right after him. Then he tosses it back to V, who runs before tossing it back to O-Chul. At some point Xykon finally grabs it, but V & O-Chul exit thru the hole in the wall with V casting something like feather fall so they survive the fall and get away.
Probably not, but...

[Optimystik]

V has to stand his ground.

If he doesn't it will be a major depture from standard fantasy plot rules, and will mean that this web comic will be going in very strange directions,

like Roy not winning or V killing all of oots.

If the Giant has us thinking for even one moment that the comic is "anything goes," then his narrative mission has been accomplished.

He does have a fondness for twists that we didn't foresee, like making Belkar face off against Crystal or the Mama Dragon's appearance.


I'm wondering if we are about to ...
...have a game of keep away.
V sneaks up and grabs phylactery. Xykon tries to grab it. V tosses it to O-Chul, who runs a bit with Xykon right after him. Then he tosses it back to V, who runs before tossing it back to O-Chul. At some point Xykon finally grabs it, but V & O-Chul exit thru the hole in the wall with V casting something like feather fall so they survive the fall and get away.
Probably not, but...

At first I foresaw O-Chul making a heroic sacrifice to allow V to get through that door unnoticed, but the more I think about it the more appealing the idea of both of them escaping with the phylactery would be.

A) O-Chul surviving would be a pleasant surprise for Hinjo, who thinks he is dead; (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html)
B) It would also delay the MitD's heel face turn;
C) Having the Stick in possession of his phylactery would finally make Xykon take notice of them as his main opposition (odd that blowing him up failed to do that);
D) It would light a fire under him to get out of Azure City once he learns he can't make another phylactery. (possibly)