Nice job NOT Breaking it Hero!

[Alex Warlorn]

Okay, to recount, O-Chul's break out has enabled to

-- Killed One Demonic Roach Who There Are At Least Two More Where She/He Came From

-- Make Red Cloak Lose One Eye That Can Be Regenerated

-- Kill Jirix. But even assuming Redcloak DOESN'T resurrect him, there are still a good deal of hobgoblin officers to take his place.

-- Distracted Xykon enabling a good chance of the Three Fiend's Alliance's patsy V to escape and unwittingly fulfill their plans at a later date.

-- Made One Fiend feel revolted when he attacked the best proxy of a major rival of the TFA and the Fiend had to cheer him on.

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

A selfless sacrifice that ends up having an OPPOSITE of the desired effect!

And now after Xykon is done with him he's likely finally dead (after taking three high class spells head on I'd be surprised if he survived to above -10 HP).

Unless Monster-San gets his head on straight from all this, then O-Chul's sacrifice was totally in vain.

[Tingel]

Unless Monster-San gets his head on straight from all this, then O-Chul's sacrifice was totally in vain.

A bold claim. Even if O-Chul dies here and now, there are still glaring problems with your whole "argument".



1) You mention the fiends' interest in Vaarsuvius' survival, which O-Chul made more likely; you failed however to mention the elf's potential future role in deeds in the interest of Good. That is a lop-sided omission.

2) You mention the potentially temporary loss of goblin eyeballs, deeming it inconsequential; you failed however to mention Redcloak's unplanned teleportation and its possible ramifications for Team Evil.

3) You made assumptions about Jirix that cannot be justified by the comic. For all we know, Jirix might have been the revered leader of Azure City's hobgoblin population, and his death combined with Redcloak's disappearance might very well lead to frictions between the hobgoblins on the one side and the lich and his human fangirl on the other. This could have very beneficial results for Azure City's human slaves, which alone would make O-Chul's sacrifice worthwhile in his own eyes.

[Porthos]

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

Yeah. :smallsigh:

I'm just going to presume that you're commenting on the ironic situation that's going on in regards to the IFCC. Coz if you were actually being serious....

Well, words fail. :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

A) You do not know if the eye can be regenerated, being poked out with Smite Evil and yadda yadda.

B) The thing is far from over by now.

C) He already made sure Vaarsuvius is not already dead. That - if nothing at all - is an achievement.

D) He's far from being as stupid and dense from Miko. And in regards to consequences of the deed, does not cannot even qualify for a comparison. Miko basically saved Xykon and Redcloak and destroyed a gate.

[Aaron]

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

...:smallsigh:

I'm going to have to assume you're being sarcastic. Or that you rolled a natural 1 on your Knowledge (what the heck you're talking about) skill.


A bold claim. Even if O-Chul dies here and now, there are still glaring problems with your whole "argument".

1) You mention the fiends' interest in Vaarsuvius' survival, which O-Chul made more likely; you failed however to mention the elf's potential future role in deeds in the interest of Good. That is a lop-sided omission.

2) You mention the potentially temporary loss of goblin eyeballs, deeming it inconsequential; you failed however to mention Redcloak's unplanned teleportation and its possible ramifications for Team Evil.

3) You made assumptions about Jirix that cannot be justified by the comic. For all we know, Jirix might have been the revered leader of Azure City's hobgoblin population, and his death combined with Redcloak's disappearance might very well lead to frictions between the hobgoblins on the one side and the lich and his human fangirl on the other. This could have very beneficial results for Azure City's human slaves, which alone would make O-Chul's sacrifice worthwhile in his own eyes.

I have to fully agree with Tingel here.

[Raging Gene Ray]

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

A selfless sacrifice that ends up having an OPPOSITE of the desired effect!


You forgot the presence of highly unlikely circumstances coming together to make it have that opposite effect.

How could O-Chul know about Word of Recall, the Abjurations on the phylactery, and V's debt to the IFCC?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Okay, to recount, O-Chul's break out has enabled to

-- Killed One Demonic Roach Who There Are At Least Two More Where She/He Came From

-- Make Red Cloak Lose One Eye That Can Be Regenerated

-- Kill Jirix. But even assuming Redcloak DOESN'T resurrect him, there are still a good deal of hobgoblin officers to take his place.

-- Distracted Xykon enabling a good chance of the Three Fiend's Alliance's patsy V to escape and unwittingly fulfill their plans at a later date.

-- Made One Fiend feel revolted when he attacked the best proxy of a major rival of the TFA and the Fiend had to cheer him on.

Wow! When you put that way that's an amazing amount of success...given that he is the 2nd lowest non-epic level character in a room where 2 epic characters fought and he is wearing a loin cloth and armed with a pointy stick.

[Tingel]

I have to fully agree with Tingel here.
Always a smart thing to do.

[Cestrian]

You forgot the presence of highly unlikely circumstances coming together to make it have that opposite effect.

How could O-Chul know about Word of Recall, the Abjurations on the phylactery, and V's debt to the IFCC?

There's a difference between unlikely and unexpected. O-Chul didn't expect Team Evil to be as prepared for emergencies as they were. Nor, for that matter, did V.

But given what he knows about Redcloak's personality I don't think he'd consider it that unlikely that they'd have made those preperations. He was just willing to bet against it.

[Optimystik]

Wow! When you put that way that's an amazing amount of success...given that he is the 2nd lowest non-epic level character in a room where 2 epic characters fought and he is wearing a loin cloth and armed with a pointy stick.

In fairness, Miko was similarly handicapped, being the second lowest non-epic level character in a room where 2 epic characters fought and having better gear, but no paladin class features.


Always a smart thing to do.

I agree with your assessment too, wary though I am of augmenting the Expansion manifested on your head by doing so :smalltongue:

EDIT:


A) You do not know if the eye can be regenerated, being poked out with Smite Evil and yadda yadda.

If it can't then that is a houserule on Rich's part. There is nothing special about Smite Evil besides hitting harder and more accurately (only the former in O-Chul's case). The "blue fire" is artistic license and not mentioned anywhere in the ability's description, nor does it deal fire damage of any kind.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Miko destroying the gate, her expression just before she entered the throne room, combined with her thinking Soon would be proud of her for doing it, suggests that she thought the Saphire Guard were losing, even though Soon visibly had Xykon and RC near-death when she attacked the gate (the situation admittedly looked worse just before she entered, her failure to change her plans could have been down to her mental instability). I agree with everyone else who said that there's no way O-Chul could have known about the WoR, psylactery defences or the V/Fiends agreement.

[Totally Guy]

To me this situation more closely resembles Roy's death.

He's a knight on a quest type who's just been hit with a meteor swarm trying his hardest to break one lousy locket.

[JonestheSpy]

Geez, what a ridiculous assessment from the OP.

Anyway, while I do think that O-Chul should have expected the phylactery to be protected, that point is pretty much irrelevant. O-Chul is smart enough to know that the battle between V and Xykon would be overwhelmingly likely to be the best possible opportunity to come along for him take action, so he did so. How much he'd actually be able to achieve isn't the point - he told the MiD that much.

[Tempest Fennac]

That is an excellent point, Glug. I hope O-Chul's actions don't result in the order getting lumbered with another clueless self-righteous Outsider. :smalltongue: I'd also agree that the situation was the best time for O-Chul to act (looking at how long he's been there with nobody trying to save him, this was pretty much an all or nothing situation).

[Ancalagon]

If it can't then that is a houserule on Rich's part. There is nothing special about Smite Evil besides hitting harder and more accurately (only the former in O-Chul's case). The "blue fire" is artistic license and not mentioned anywhere in the ability's description, nor does it deal fire damage of any kind.

All I say is: We do not know.

And it'd be wasted material to show that in big and just rollback with a single spell... so I'd say it's 50/50.

[ABB]

Always a smart thing to do.

After seeing your recent posts I was wondering if you'd ever tried to become a mod? You act arrogant and pompous enough to be one easily. Maybe you should apply at rpg.net.

Anyway, since I dislike arrogant, pompous types, on my IL you go, before you get to be a mod and can't be put there.

[Morty]

All I say is: We do not know.

And it'd be wasted material to show that in big and just rollback with a single spell... so I'd say it's 50/50.

Well, there are many possible reasons for Redcloak not to grow the eye back for a while except for Smite Evil preventing it.
Also, I don't really think O-Chul expected to win at all. It seems to me he just took the opportunity to break free and cause as much damage as possible before going down.

[Optimystik]

All I say is: We do not know.

And it'd be wasted material to show that in big and just rollback with a single spell... so I'd say it's 50/50.

There's always the chance that he would be able to heal it, and choose not to out of reverence for his brother. That would satisfy any dramatic conventions without requiring a houserule.

From a practical standpoint, Redcloak shouldn't leave himself with a Charisma penalty; he might need his turning skills again. Bottom line, my money is on regenerating the eye, even if he gets emo about it for a little while and does nothing.

[Porthos]

From a practical standpoint, Redcloak shouldn't leave himself with a Charisma penalty; he might need his turning skills again. Bottom line, my money is on regenerating the eye, even if he gets emo about it for a little while and does nothing.

Why would having an eyepatch give Redcloak a CHR penalty? If anything, an eyepatch signifies that this person is not to be messed with (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyepatchOfPower).

Face it, Eyepatches are dead sexy. :smalltongue:

[Trisk]

After seeing your recent posts I was wondering if you'd ever tried to become a mod? You act arrogant and pompous enough to be one easily. Maybe you should apply at rpg.net.

Anyway, since I dislike arrogant, pompous types, on my IL you go, before you get to be a mod and can't be put there.

Seems like a rather childish assumption of someones from what I assumed was a mere joke of arrogance. But alas, perhaps yours too was a follow up joke of what someone who was a bit silly would say.
I often miss the second step in these circles of jokes.

Anywho, I think Ochul is a skilled hero. He's badass, takes risks, probably gained a level and has a plan when he does something. He might not know of Phylacteries spells and precautions, much as I didn't before the comic and he certainly didn't have the time to consider, he took a shot and either way he saved V.

[Swordster]

Redcloak didn't resurrect the hobgoblin general or the cleric who was in the throne room with him. Barring some kind of strange injury-induced epiphany, Redcloak's not raising anyone. Jirix is gone.

Why are people even considering that Redcloak can't regenerate his eye? That would be a MASSIVE houserule. There's no logical reason why it would work that way. The eye is significant because it mirrors Right-Eye's situation. Redcloak may choose not to regenerate. But paladins have been throwing Smite Evils around all strip with no reference to it inhibiting healing.

[Godskook]

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

Alright, I'll get the rope, someone get the mob, there's going to a lynching tonight!

[ericgrau]

The long term impact of O-Chul's actions are still being determined. As for the current conflict, he has made a most-definite positive impact. Redcloak is out of the fight and Vaarsuvius got a chance to turn invisible. He didn't know about the phylactery abjurations and neither did you or I. From a knowledge(religion) he should know how much it takes to destroy an ordinary phylactery, and probably would have broken one or else not bothered given the limited time he has.

The scales of this conflict are still tipping back and forth, thanks in no small part to O-Chul's efforts. Whether or not this has any long term impact depends how they tip in the end. This is still yet to be determined. Vaarsuvius might very well escape thanks to him, for example.

[Simanos]

Face it, Eyepatches are dead sexy. :smalltongue:
Howard Wolowitz ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Wolowitz ) wore one once so you must be right (or wrong on second thought :smalltongue: ) :smallcool:

[David Argall]

I suspect the loss of the eye here is simply an attempt at an excuse for having Redcloak run. With the loss of a 2nd eye possible, one can claim he would display more caution than usual. I would deem the excuse inadequate explanation, but our strips have been flawed before and will be again. So this could be merely a flaw in execution. But Redcloak may be back to two eyes soon.

[Doran]

I suspect the loss of the eye here is simply an attempt at an excuse for having Redcloak run. With the loss of a 2nd eye possible, one can claim he would display more caution than usual. I would deem the excuse inadequate explanation, but our strips have been flawed before and will be again. So this could be merely a flaw in execution. But Redcloak may be back to two eyes soon.

He had also had his holy symbol removed, rendering him near powerless with no allies.

[Berserk Monk]

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

A selfless sacrifice that ends up having an OPPOSITE of the desired effect!

And now after Xykon is done with him he's likely finally dead (after taking three high class spells head on I'd be surprised if he survived to above -10 HP).

Unless Monster-San gets his head on straight from all this, then O-Chul's sacrifice was totally in vain.

O-Chul is the anit-Miko. Never claim such a thing ever again!

As for his sacrifice being in vain, V could still escape.

[homeosapiens]

Really? Anti-Miko?

I just thought all of them Hinjo, Lien, and O-chul were like really, really close in case of features of character, so i could say, they are all "anit-miko", not only O-chul.

[ABB]

If the phylactery is evil, couldn't Ochul have used smite evil on it or does smite evil not affect objects?

Again, not a D&D player, just a gamer who liked OotS...

(Also, if they can cast spells on objects that make them damn near indstructible, it's a shame no one cast one of the gate miko destroyed, on the crystal around it...)

One issue here is that the phylactery is not just xykon's soul hidey place It's apparently the source of redcloak's power. (Not knowing much about D&D I guess a mage like V doesn't need a piece of jewelry but reddy does. I guess it's different types of mage, and having a weakness like needing an amulet may make reddy's levels or spells cheaper.)

So if RC is going to continue to be a player in the story he needs his amulet back, so if it gets destroyed he's really reduced in power. Could make him a more interesting character in some ways.

Also, if those amulets are power sources, remember that the invisible elf is close to jirix's body and it's amulet...

[Alex Warlorn]

Redcloak doesn't need his Unholy Symbol for -all- his spells, just some.

[choie]

I can't believe I'm delurking for this, but...

Just wanted to say I, for one, appreciate the Portal quote.

[Y'nokhs]

At least he hasn't broken anything that makes shoes for orphans :smallamused:

Miko's intentions were correct but her actions were...misguided. She caused much more damage than was necessary. O'chul, in contrast is acting to the best of his ability, and though that may not be enough to matter, as Roy's caseworker-archon said, "we don't penalize ineffectiveness"

[Red XIV]

To me this situation more closely resembles Roy's death.

He's a knight on a quest type who's just been hit with a meteor swarm trying his hardest to break one lousy locket.
LOL, I never thought of that.

[FujinAkari]

Well, you're right, but not for the reasons you cite.

Both O-chul and Miko saw a dire situation and acted expediently based on the information at hand.

The difference, of course, is that Miko actually made the situation worse due to events changing after she made the decision to act, whereas we (readers) do not yet know enough of ongoing events to say if O-chul's actions are for the better or worse.

But yes, you can be correct in saying he's "pulling a Miko," if you really want... :)

[petersohn]

Really? Anti-Miko?

I just thought all of them Hinjo, Lien, and O-chul were like really, really close in case of features of character, so i could say, they are all "anit-miko", not only O-chul.

Hinjo and Lien look like quite everyday paladins. They are Lawful Good, they fight well but we didn't see them doing anything grand. However, O-Chul is "the" anti-Miko. While Miko was doing what she thought is her duty (killing Shojo, destroying the gate), O-Chul does what is really the best for the "Greater Good" according to available information. That information may be incorrect though, since O-Chul is still an ordinary human, not a deity or an epic wizard.

[Silas_]

Why are people even considering that Redcloak can't regenerate his eye? That would be a MASSIVE houserule.

SOD Spoilers
A massive houserule… like having a disease that can't be removed with Divine Magic?

Remember Rich has stated repeatedly he cares more about the narrative than the rules. There is a strong importance in the difference between whether or not he can't regenerate his eye or whether or not he won't regenerate his eye. If he can't it suggests he is still trying to hide from his brother's death, and is still unable to face himself about it. If he won't, it suggests that he is ready to look at the monster he has become.
Personally, my bet is the next time we see him he'll have the intention of fixing his eye once he gets a new holy symbol, but before he does he'll have an epiphany and begin to change his outlook.

[puzpuz]

Okay, to recount, O-Chul's break out has enabled to

-- Killed One Demonic Roach Who There Are At Least Two More Where She/He Came From

-- Make Red Cloak Lose One Eye That Can Be Regenerated

-- Kill Jirix. But even assuming Redcloak DOESN'T resurrect him, there are still a good deal of hobgoblin officers to take his place.

-- Distracted Xykon enabling a good chance of the Three Fiend's Alliance's patsy V to escape and unwittingly fulfill their plans at a later date.

-- Made One Fiend feel revolted when he attacked the best proxy of a major rival of the TFA and the Fiend had to cheer him on.

In short, O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

A selfless sacrifice that ends up having an OPPOSITE of the desired effect!

And now after Xykon is done with him he's likely finally dead (after taking three high class spells head on I'd be surprised if he survived to above -10 HP).

Unless Monster-San gets his head on straight from all this, then O-Chul's sacrifice was totally in vain.

I don't know about you, but I'm sure I would give my life just to kill this roach.

[Milandros]

One issue here is that the phylactery is not just xykon's soul hidey place It's apparently the source of redcloak's power. (Not knowing much about D&D I guess a mage like V doesn't need a piece of jewelry but reddy does. I guess it's different types of mage, and having a weakness like needing an amulet may make reddy's levels or spells cheaper.)

So if RC is going to continue to be a player in the story he needs his amulet back, so if it gets destroyed he's really reduced in power. Could make him a more interesting character in some ways.

Also, if those amulets are power sources, remember that the invisible elf is close to jirix's body and it's amulet...


A cleric's holy symbol is just that, a symbol with no particular power of its own. The exception here is that this one is *also* Xykon's phylactery, but all Redcloak needs to do is dash to the nearest 1st level goblin cleric and say "gimme your holy symbol" to be back in the game. It's an aid for dicine focus and concentration, not a power source. His power source is his god, the Dark One.

Of course, if his word of recall is set somewhere inconvenient a long way away without any clerics of the Dark One nearby, then he'll have to make a new one out of wood or find a shop that sells them.

[Dagren]

Of course, if his word of recall is set somewhere inconvenient a long way away without any clerics of the Dark One nearby, then he'll have to make a new one out of wood or find a shop that sells them.I'd like to add that I would expect that to be at least a bit harder than it would for a cleric of a good god.

[EmeraldPhoenix]

O-Chul is pulling a Miko!

A selfless sacrifice that ends up having an OPPOSITE of the desired effect!

Wait, what?

That's a Roy. (Trying to kill Xykon and instead dying and keeping his team from being able to strategize to kill Xykon.)

A Miko would be killing a good person due to a wrong assumption they were evil.

A Miko would be if O-Chul killed V because he'd seen hir evil speech bubble, after shi'd already changed back to hir old red-robed neutral-alignment disdainful androgenous self.

[lord_khaine]

if nothing else, if O'chuul gets lucky he might provoke Xykon into killing him, thereby escaping more torture.

[Shatteredtower]

Pulling a Miko? I don't think that's accurate.

You could say that both of them played a Sapphire Gambit, hurling themselves headlong into personal danger in an attempt to thwart the forces of evil, but there are differences between the two variations.

In both lines, the paladin is imprisoned for a time, finally breaking out and attempting to destroy something of value to the opponent. The reason the Miko Variation is seldom played, however, is because of how badly the paladin obstructs her own forces to manoeuvre herself into a disadvantageous position, eventually leading to further sacrifice that utterly destroys the defender's position. Detailed analysis shows that this manoeuvre runs counter to the best interests of the player, as highlighted in the variation's first appearance (Miyazaki - Xykon, Azure City Open, 1183). The resulting position also conflicted with the apparent goal of scoring a quick knockout.

In the O-Chul Variation, the paladin is abandoned within enemy territory, rather than held by allied forces, with the long term objective of striking when the enemy's attention is diverted elsewhere. In the most notable example to date (Xykon - O-Chul, Azure City Closed, 1184), this strategy left opposing forces somewhat disorganized, but was unable to crack critical defenses. Its soundness may depend on whether or not the player is able to relocate another piece to a safer position once again in preparation for the endgame.

Whatever the outcome, these lines bear further study for anyone seeking to salvage the Greenhilt System, in spite of the obvious differences between them.

[ABB]

Well, I don't see Ochul as anything like Miko, as Miko would have just cursed at the MitD and spat hate at it. Ochul actually spoke with it and got to know it, and did other things Miko would have been too self righteous to do.