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Heliomance
2009-05-26, 01:49 PM
What's the easiest way to be able to make hide checks even without cover? The Ranger's Camouflage ability does it, but that comes very late. Ideally, I'm looking for something that can be used in an AMF by level 10 or below.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-26, 01:51 PM
Best way to hide without cover? Blind your enemy.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 01:53 PM
That kinda tips them off that there's someone there, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-26, 01:58 PM
Talk your DM into using the Facing rules from UA. They allow you to sneak up on someone by, you know, not being in front of them when hiding. There's also the Shadow Creature template, ToM, LA+1, gives you HiPS. SU, IIRC, but there's not that many AMFs in most campaigns. Also, you can hide with concealment, too, which is essentially just somewhere shadowy.

monty
2009-05-26, 01:58 PM
Initiate of Mystra UMDing a scroll of superior invisibility.

Stormageddon
2009-05-26, 02:00 PM
take a level dip of Shadow Dancer.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-26, 02:20 PM
I'd say Shadowdancer 1, but that's a Supernatural ability and doesn't work in an AMF.

Underfolk from Races of Destiny get Camouflage (Ex) as a racial ability, and they don't even have a level adjustment.

Scout 8 also gets Camouflage, so maybe go with a Swift Hunter build using that.

You could go Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) and at level 10 you can get the Ranger's Camouflage as your special ability, then get Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight at 13. An Underfolk Wilderness Rogue could get Hide in Plain Sight at 10. If you use that, you could take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a flanking partner, and/or use the Fighter Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant to trade Sneak Attack for the Fighter bonus feat progression.

Geddoe
2009-05-26, 08:10 PM
Cloak Dance? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance

Also, the Darkstalker feat(lords of Madness) is a requirement for any serious stealth character.

You just need concealment to hide, not cover. So use the full round action then anklets of teleportation(MIC) to move 10 feet away.

I also seem to remember a rule in either the 3.0 phb, song and silence, or Complete adventurer about being able to hide a number of feet away from concealment or cover equal to your ranks in hide(mostly for moving from cover to cover or shadow to shadow). Admittedly that gets a little crazy at higher levels, but you could talk to a DM about it or a variation of it.

Arbitrarity
2009-05-26, 08:15 PM
Dark Whisper Gnome with Darkstalker. +16 to hide before dex, or ranks. +10 move silently.
+1 LA. Hide in plain Sight. 40 ft move speed.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 08:29 PM
I went Petal Rogue with 1 level in Marshal and 3 in Factotum. I don't have HiPS or anything, but I do have a naked hide check of +40 at level 10.

Chronos
2009-05-26, 08:37 PM
The Dark template's version of Hide in Plain Sight is (ex), so it works in antimagic, but unlike some other versions of HiPS, it does not remove the requirement for concealment.

The best form of HiPS I've found is on the Brownie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a). They have a +4 LA, but their HiPS is (ex), removes the need for concealment, and works in any condition of dim light, tall grass, or heavy undergrowth. They also have Tiny size, good ability score modifiers, and a smattering of other useful abilities.

Jarade
2009-05-26, 08:53 PM
Where can I find the dark template that you all keep mentioning?

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 08:56 PM
Tome of Magic

Chronos
2009-05-26, 09:06 PM
By the way, I just looked up the Underfolk that Biffoniacus_Furiou mentioned... They do get an ability called Camouflage, but it isn't the same as the ranger ability. It just gives a bonus to Hide checks, but doesn't change the circumstances under which you can use it.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-26, 09:10 PM
You do have Darkstalker, right? Otherwise a single ghoul with Lifesense would 100% defeat your Hide without even a need to roll.

Jarade
2009-05-26, 09:11 PM
Tome of Magic

Thank you sir.

Heliomance
2009-05-26, 09:22 PM
You do have Darkstalker, right? Otherwise a single ghoul with Lifesense would 100% defeat your Hide without even a need to roll.

Of course I have Darkstalker! I didn't start optimising yesterday, you know!

woodenbandman
2009-05-26, 10:45 PM
Taking 2 levels of Umbral Disciple is a choice. you get concealment which you can use to hide.

darkblust
2009-05-27, 06:58 AM
Just buy a couple potions of invisibility or take some levels in wizard so you can cast the spell.

Zanticor
2009-05-27, 08:11 AM
not sure if this is what you are looking for but the shadow craft PrC can be taken by a mage on level 8 and has a cloak of shadow ability were you can hide in.

Zanticor

Heliomance
2009-05-27, 09:32 AM
Just buy a couple potions of invisibility or take some levels in wizard so you can cast the spell.

Hiding is actually better than invisibility if you get the check high enough. The Spot DC to notice a moving invisible creature is only 20.

Zaq
2009-05-27, 12:43 PM
Take a level of Warlock with the Darkness invocation, and the feat Blend Into Shadows from Drow of the Underdark. The feat requires you to have Darkness as a spell-like ability (which you do), and you can spend one use (out of your infinite number per day) of it as a swift action to hide even when being observed and without cover or concealment. You have to be within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness, but that's really not hard.

There you have it. Unlimited HiPS at level one. As a swift action. Be prepared to dodge thrown DMGs.

Draz74
2009-05-27, 01:38 PM
So Hide in Plain Sight [Ex] deals with hiding while observed, but not with the OP's actual question, which was hiding without cover/concealment in an AMF.

And I'm not sure I've seen any answer about how to do so (at low levels). Nor can I think of any off the top of my head.

Closest thing that my most recent stealthy character could figure out to do was to carry around a smokestick and tindertwig at all times, so he could give himself nonmagical concealment.

Without the AMF requirement, of course, there's loads of ways to give yourself constant concealment. A favorite of mine is the Greater Blurring Armor enhancement from MIC.

Chronos
2009-05-27, 10:01 PM
Quoth woodenbandman:
Taking 2 levels of Umbral Disciple is a choice. you get concealment which you can use to hide.3 levels, actually. But yes, that's a very nice class (though it's (su)).

Quoth Draz74:
So Hide in Plain Sight [Ex] deals with hiding while observed, but not with the OP's actual question, which was hiding without cover/concealment in an AMF.Incorrect. There are at least a half a dozen different versions of Hide in Plain Sight, and the Dark creature template is the only one that has this problem. The ranger version of HiPS doesn't remove the need for concealment, but that's only because rangers (and anyone else with that version of the ability) already have an ability several levels earlier which grants that, and the version had by the Brownies that I posted earlier, despite being extraordinary, does remove the need for concealment.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-28, 08:42 AM
There are at least a half a dozen different versions of Hide in Plain Sight, and the Dark creature template is the only one that has this problem. The ranger version of HiPS doesn't remove the need for concealment, but that's only because rangers (and anyone else with that version of the ability) already have an ability several levels earlier which grants that, and the version had by the Brownies that I posted earlier, despite being extraordinary, does remove the need for concealment. The Dark Creature Template Hide in Plain Sight is certainly not the only Extrordinary version that requires cover/concealment. There's the Stalker of Kharash (Book of Exalted Deeds) and Dark Lantern (Eberron: Five Nations), for instance. Plus you're overlooking some obvious limitations here. The Ranger, Scout, and many other classes with Camouflage don't require concealment but are limited to "natural terrain", so no HiPS in dungeons. The Brownie HiPS only works in "dim light, tall grass, or heavy undergrowth", so a well-lit (or completely dark) dungeon foils this.

There are limitations to all versions of Hide in Plain Sight. The Supernatural HiPS of Assassins and Shadowdancers requires a shadow within 10', and still won't work in an Antimagic Field. The Eye of Lloth's version (Drow of the Underdark) is the least limited one I know of; it's also only within 10' of a shadow, but is Extraordinary.

Mark Hall
2009-05-28, 09:48 AM
IIRC, isn't there a low-level Stance from Bo9S (in Shadow Hand, IIRC) that gives you a degree of concealment if you keep moving? It's not perfect, but I believe it would only cost a feat or two to have some concealment, and thus an ability to attempt a hide check.

Chronos
2009-05-28, 11:07 AM
There are limitations to all versions of Hide in Plain Sight. The Supernatural HiPS of Assassins and Shadowdancers requires a shadow within 10', and still won't work in an Antimagic Field. The Eye of Lloth's version (Drow of the Underdark) is the least limited one I know of; it's also only within 10' of a shadow, but is Extraordinary.OK, I wasn't familiar with the Eye of Lloth. Another one worthy of mention is Unearthed Arcana's urban ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er), which is extraordinary and works literally everywhere (but they don't get Camouflage).

And I was interpreting the Brownie's "dim light" as "dim light or less", though I can see the argument either way.

Draz74
2009-05-28, 02:21 PM
IIRC, isn't there a low-level Stance from Bo9S (in Shadow Hand, IIRC) that gives you a degree of concealment if you keep moving? It's not perfect, but I believe it would only cost a feat or two to have some concealment, and thus an ability to attempt a hide check.

If I recall correctly, the stance explicitly forbids using its particular brand of concealment for the purpose of hiding.

Doc Roc
2009-05-28, 03:23 PM
Shadow Or Dark Template grant an ability called Hide in Plain Sight, which to clarify in their case requires only shadowy light, NOT concealment.
Check out the collar of umbral metamorphosis from ToM. Good luck!

DarknessLord
2009-05-28, 03:27 PM
Now, a shadowdancer or whatever, can't hide in their own shadows, but if you had a buddy of the same class as you, could you work together to hide in each others shadows? :smallamused:

Mark Hall
2009-05-28, 03:38 PM
If I recall correctly, the stance explicitly forbids using its particular brand of concealment for the purpose of hiding.

Entirely possible; I'm well and truly away from my books at the moment.

Curmudgeon
2009-05-28, 04:12 PM
Shadow Or Dark Template grant an ability called Hide in Plain Sight, which to clarify in their case requires only shadowy light, NOT concealment.
You're not reading the rules carefully enough. Here's exactly what the Dark Creature Template grants:
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar ettect). And here are the two requirements of the Hide skill:
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
...
If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide. That Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight (like almost all of them) only satisfies the latter of these two requirements. It doesn't make any mention of the other requirement. That does not mean that this requirement goes away; it just means that HiPS provides no benefit in that regard.

Finally, the Shadow Creature Template does not provide any form of Hide in Plain Sight; see Lords of Madness pages 167-168. Shadow Creatures instead have Shadow Blend, a Supernatural ability, which of course fails in an Antimagic Field.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 06:52 PM
IIRC, isn't there a low-level Stance from Bo9S (in Shadow Hand, IIRC) that gives you a degree of concealment if you keep moving? It's not perfect, but I believe it would only cost a feat or two to have some concealment, and thus an ability to attempt a hide check.

It is, indeed, explicitly prohibited from being used to make a Hide check. It just gives you the 20% miss chance (and immunity to sneak attack).

Really, this is kind of a difficult one. The Brownie linked earlier probably has the best bet.

Ahh, I have an idea! Smokestick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#smokestick) is non-magical (alchemical), and creates cover for concealment, which you can then hide in. It's like the ninja smoke bomb to vanish from! All you need is a great quantity of them, and an ability to retrieve and light them quickly.

Heliomance
2009-05-28, 06:57 PM
Aye, smokesticks are good. The only problem is that the cloud of smoke is obvious. They're only really useful for emergency escapes when you've already been discovered.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 07:01 PM
Aye, smokesticks are good. The only problem is that the cloud of smoke is obvious. They're only really useful for emergency escapes when you've already been discovered.

Toss one into the mix from outside range, then have fun sneaking in and killing everything.

Chronos
2009-05-28, 08:52 PM
If I recall correctly, the stance explicitly forbids using its particular brand of concealment for the purpose of hiding.Incorrect. All Child of Shadow says is that it doesn't give you the Hide in Plain Sight ability. So if you're being observed, then you still can't hide, but if you're not being observed, you have concealment and can hide. Alternately, if you had the Dark template and the Child of Shadow stance, between them you'd have everything you need. Annoyingly, though, Child of Shadow is one of the few supernatural martial stances, so it still doesn't work in AMF.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 09:24 PM
Incorrect. All Child of Shadow says is that it doesn't give you the Hide in Plain Sight ability. So if you're being observed, then you still can't hide, but if you're not being observed, you have concealment and can hide. Alternately, if you had the Dark template and the Child of Shadow stance, between them you'd have everything you need. Annoyingly, though, Child of Shadow is one of the few supernatural martial stances, so it still doesn't work in AMF.

Sorry, but that isn't correct. The exact text states:


You also gain the benefits of Concealment, but you cannot use this stance to hide in plain sight; you must still use some other terrain feature that normally allows you to use the Hide skill

Thus, it does NOT allow you to use it for a Hide check. If it was specifically referring to the ability Hide in Plain Sight, it would have been capitalized.