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Exarch
2009-05-26, 05:05 PM
Hello all! I submit the following question to the others in the playground:

What is the best system to simulate modern shoot outs and fights while maintaining decent rules for hacking, engineering, and social interaction? I'm thinking of GMing a game where the players are either a PMC or pirates and transporters (think Black Lagoon for those anime fans out there).

I was thinking about using Shadow Run with metahumans being genetically modified humans, though this would be better for the PMC's as it makes that lends itself better to governments messing around. Although if there were only 1-2 metas, they could be pirates on the run...hmm...

Another friend suggested World of Darkness, as he loves the Scion battle system. I haven't looked into it, to be honest.

Well, what are your thoughts?

shadzar
2009-05-26, 05:08 PM
Only thing that would fit in my mind would be Shadowrun, and I never really played it outside of the Sega game. :smallredface:

Bulwer
2009-05-26, 05:09 PM
GURPS is always a good go-to system, and you could do worse than d20 modern.

Baxbart
2009-05-26, 05:27 PM
The video game version of Shadowrun is... for lack of a better word: an Abomination. The system itself is far, far better, and I would highly recommend it. At the same time, I'd also recommend GURPS - but it is extremely brutal in terms of realism, and can be considerably harder to get used to (in terms of learning a new system).

potatocubed
2009-05-26, 05:30 PM
Spycraft has everything you need, including rules for nonhuman races (look for Origin of the Species or Odd Jobs). The only drawback is that it can get a little rule-heavy if you let it - just remember that you don't have to apply all the rules, all the time.

Tengu_temp
2009-05-26, 05:45 PM
I suggest Shadowrun as well. World of Darkness doesn't work well here, guns are not powerful enough in it. I'd advise against Cyberpunk 2020, as well - the system is fast and, if you use the alternate rules from Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads (yeah, it's the name of one of the splatbooks), deadly, but apart from that the mechanics are awful.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-26, 05:47 PM
Shadowrun is a pretty good one, yes. It's easy to modify the newest version back from using wireless to using cables (indeed, the same rules are used in the game for wireless and cable-connected hacking), and ditching metahumans is easy. There's no reason you need to use any of the setting-specific stuff - metahumans, magic, monsters, etc.

GURPS is good, too. The old GURPS Cyberpunk (still available from SJGs online store as a PDF, I'm pretty sure) had some of the most realistic hacking rules I've seen. (Also, it's infamous because the original version was seized by the US Secret Service before it was ready and never returned, forcing the writers to start over...)

Twilight 2013 is absolutely unparallelled as far as gunfighting (including vehicles and even individual artillery pieces, like mortars) goes. There's no real or detailed hacking rules, but the existing rules are plenty good for realistic hacking, rather than the cyberpunk virtual reality "astral projection & magic" allegory.

Cyberpunk 2020 has to be mentioned. It's very rules-lite, and with the optional combat system from Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads! the combat is great. (Vehicle combat works out wonderfully, too, if you get Maximum Metal.) The cyberspace/hacking rules in 2020 are a disgrace, unfortunately - 2013's made much more sense. (Never spend money on 203X. It is really just pathetic, and not even worth insulting at length.)

Then there's Ex Machina. It's very versatile, and uses the same Tri-Stat system that Big Eyes, Small Mouth does. It's a bit too light for my tastes, though.


Overall, for playing PMCs etc., I absolutely recommend Twilight 2013, just because the combat rules are so awesome and put the focus squarely on good tactics. The game has a full skill system and everything, with a very simple basic idea (difficulty, modifiers, roll) and no tables you need to check for everything. The wealth of survival, scavenging, repairing, and improvisation rules may be unnecessary for your game (although pirates and the like definitely would have use for them!), but the game is worth the buy just for the solid core combat system. Such simple elegance and detail as I've never seen before.

Satyr
2009-05-27, 12:51 AM
I found the current edition of Shadowrun to be a conoluted mess and a serious step back from older editions, but probably, that is a highly subjective issue. If you are looking for a simple to use and learn bew system, I would recommend something else.

Generally, speaking, you can usually take the game mechanics of roughly two thirds of all role-playing games and replace it through Gurps to massive increase the game's quality. Gurps is easy to use and understand, yet has an unmatched potential for fine tuning and complexity, can easily adjusted to pretty much every setting and gaming style you want.

And then there is the Unisystem, with all its different games and moods.Unisystem lays a bit like the love child of D20 and Gurps, and it offers a similar range of different source books (in the All Flesh Must Be Eaten line... the zombies are recommendable, but not obligatory. Everything is better with Zombies).

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-27, 01:00 AM
I've had a lot of fun with d20 modern. Its a nice balance between realism and playability for shootouts and hacking

If you want very realistic and dangerous gun battles, try deadlands. The dice "explode" that is, every time you get a max roll on a die you get to roll it again, so that 2d6 pistol can end up doing 30 points of damage. Damage is divided by your size, which turns into wound levels for that part of the body, which has a chance to stun, wind, or incapacitate you.

You can just add a hacking or computer use roll under Smarts.

Colmarr
2009-05-27, 01:08 AM
Twilight 2013 is absolutely unparallelled as far as gunfighting (including vehicles and even individual artillery pieces, like mortars) goes. There's no real or detailed hacking rules, but the existing rules are plenty good for realistic hacking, rather than the cyberpunk virtual reality "astral projection & magic" allegory.

Someone made the mistake of setting a cyberpunk game in the near future and actually gave it a date?!

Out of interest, is therefore anything in it that is going to look ridiculous in hindsight when 2013 rolls around in four years time?

Attilargh
2009-05-27, 03:47 AM
France being the first to shoot nukes springs to mind. :smalltongue:

It's a tradition of the game, really. Its predecessor, Twilight 2000 assumed that NATO and the Varsaw Pact forces would clash over Berlin and initiate a nuclear exchange. Pretty soon after the game came out, the Berlin Wall fell.

Also, the setting is not cyberpunk, but instead post-apocalyptica, which is probably why the hacking rules are not detailed: Good luck finding a piece of working network after all the EMPs.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-27, 04:09 AM
Someone made the mistake of setting a cyberpunk game in the near future and actually gave it a date?!

Are you kidding me? Cyberpunk 2013, Cyberpunk 2020, every edition of Shadowrun... nearly everything cyberpunk and SF ever? (And the attempt of Cyberpunk 203X to obfuscate the year is just pathetic, but that's not even the start of the problems with it.)

TW2013 is the superior successor of TW2000. They're post-nuclear war games; TW2000 was written in the Cold War era, and TW2013 was just released. Both definitely need a date (and people are still playing TW2000; I'm not sure how alternate histories immediately become untenable when you pass the year they're set in?). Neither TW2000 or TW2013 assume anything - they posit alternate realities with different future (at the time of writing, anyway) histories.

The "hacking rules" or lack thereof are just as detailed as almost all other skill use, really. The effects of using skills (outside of combat, medicine, and specific survival situations) are mostly left to the GM, which is the best skill system model anyway.

NPCMook
2009-05-27, 04:12 AM
I found the current edition of Shadowrun to be a conoluted mess and a serious step back from older editions, but probably, that is a highly subjective issue. If you are looking for a simple to use and learn bew system, I would recommend something else.

Generally, speaking, you can usually take the game mechanics of roughly two thirds of all role-playing games and replace it through Gurps to massive increase the game's quality. Gurps is easy to use and understand, yet has an unmatched potential for fine tuning and complexity, can easily adjusted to pretty much every setting and gaming style you want.

And then there is the Unisystem, with all its different games and moods.Unisystem lays a bit like the love child of D20 and Gurps, and it offers a similar range of different source books (in the All Flesh Must Be Eaten line... the zombies are recommendable, but not obligatory. Everything is better with Zombies).

Have you checked out SR4A?

Satyr
2009-05-27, 04:23 AM
Have you checked out SR4A?

Not yet. Is it such a great improvement? The first draft of SR4 was a serious step back from the older editions.

NPCMook
2009-05-27, 06:22 AM
As I was introduced to Shadowrun through SR4, the other versions are slightly foreign to me, except for the Priority system... They've gone through and made some minor tweaks, included all the old errata. It fixes the massive brokeness that was the Adept with ruling that you may only roll total of you skill + Attribute x2 number of dice, so Gun Bunnies got hurt, mind you they can still have a 32 Dice pool. Karma rewards and costs have been changed, some powers prices were shifted around