tuckers kobolds

[Radiun]

Tucker's Dwarves too.

They've dug out the ground around the entrance and the walls of their fortress, the the point of making it impassable, The entrance usually barred by a drawbridge. They can lower the bridge unto an 'island' that they have similarly channeled around. There is another bridge leading from that island to the mainland. The bridges are never both lowered at once. Once a creature gets to the island, the bridge to the mainland is raised before their entrance is lowered. Creatures may pass underneath the bridges, but a flood of magma is sure to chase them.

[EleventhHour]

~TDs~

Not to mention thier expert stoneworkers/craftsmen. They could probably build in the piles of pressure plates, lines of poisoned crossbows, flame traps, porticullis...

Tuckers Humans is already done. We excell at killing each other. :smallfrown:

[SmartAlec]

Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too.

I have a feeling Tucker's Elves would fight like Robin Hood's Merrie Men; camoflauged treetop huts hidden deep in the forest, archer sniping positions, groups of dangerous animals empathied into attacking the party, druids instead of sorcerors, rangers setting false trails to be followed into ambushes, tangle traps, nooses to catch feet and swing someone up into the trees, the classic pit traps, etc etc.

You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.

[Bayar]

I have a feeling Tucker's Elves would fight like Robin Hood's Merrie Men; camoflauged treetop huts hidden deep in the forest, archer sniping positions, groups of dangerous animals empathied into attacking the party, druids instead of sorcerors, rangers setting false trails to be followed into ambushes, tangle traps, nooses to catch feet and swing someone up into the trees, the classic pit traps, etc etc.

You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.

Well, I am sure that the elven druids have developed ways to give all the forest a fire resistance 6 or something.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't forget the vorpal bunnies.


You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.
There are some who call me...Tim? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AisrwPaRAbY)

[shadow_archmagi]

Tucker's Dwarves?


Dwarf Fortress is a perfect example of this. The players have designed some very, very elaborate traps. (I believe one system involved an elaborate system of pumps and floodgates, so that basically they had a network of magma-filled pipes 100 ft up that they could use to pour lava on any tile on the map. Invaders were sad.)



AND JUST WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THE INFINITE RAW MATERIALS FROM?


I think it's fairly safe to assume that if one can BUY 30 molotovs for the price of a single pig, molotov materials are not exactly rare or complicated.

[Starbuck_II]

This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.

.

No, only in a web enhancement did they get that ability to count as tiny. What books are you building these Kobolds as?

[Tiktakkat]

Yes, you could overwhelm the Kobold's home.
but throw in some burrowers to tunnel into their true home, and realize it won't likely be over in a day.

So?
The point is winning; no time limit was mentioned.


Pray tell, how do you set a trap that triggers based on species?

Alarm spell trigger.
Elves are known for their magic, and so forth.


No, adventurers dont have need for an infinite number of Decanters of Endless water for any normal adventure. Kobolds need traps to defend their lair. See the discrepancy ?

They decanters are borrowed from the local aqueducts and irrigation systems.
No more discrepancy.


Miners. Smelters. Foragers. Thieves. Need I continue ?

Well, yes you do.
All of the kobolds are building traps, remember?
There are none left to mine, smelt, forage, or thieve.


You have RAW for this ? Or is this one of your houserules ?

Yep.
Cloth has a hardness and hit points, and constitutes a barrier.
There is no blow through damage in D&D.


Well, if adventurers decide that indeed, they want to raid a kobold lair considered "The den of Horrors", the DM needs to adjust the adventure accordingly. And the DM probably isnt enjoying when everyone else says "These monsters suck, I can one shot anyone at level 8 herp derp We are awesome your monsters suck".

Except they are not billed as a den of horrors, they are just billed as part of another dungeon.
Once you up the billing, the kobolds lose the element of surprise.


You are again assuming that kobolds are INT dumping idiots. Kobolds CAN eat rocks. They just do that when there is nothing else to eat. They can farm mushrooms or hunt for gnomes outside thank you very much.

Actually, they cannot.
Again, you said they are all building traps and super-drainage systems.


Lol, have you read the section dealing with kobolds laying siege ? Imagine about 4-5 warrens of kobolds, simply launching themselves on a suicide run against the enemy. Their primary advantage is numbers and soon enough they overwhelm the besieged. Of course, this only happens when they are running low on stuff to mine or they have an overpopulation and need new territories. And they mostly target gnomish lands (if there are no gnomish lands available, they just siege anything that would look weak enough).

Suicide runs mean they all die.
When the kobolds are all dead, the PCs can just walk in and claim their empty lair.


God, I love that Skewer of Gnomes spear. Kobold Relic weapon. Oh, and I'd like to see a gnomish crusade against kobolds. It'd be like the Black Crusades of Chaos. Meaning they would be massive failures.

Gnomes do not get relics of their own?

Kobolds are immune to gnomish mercenaries? Or are they just immune to being beaten at all?


This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.

Of course the elves are omnipresent in their woods, just as the kobolds face no threats or have any requirements other than dealing with PCs.
Yes, the elves do have orc traps too. As I noted, the elves have been there hundreds of years. They have had tons of time to prepare for anything.

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

[Kallisti]

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

...? Wut?

We're working from the assumption that there is a DM here, planning an encounter, wanting to challenge his PCs, etc. "Inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can?" When I DM, I make my own decisions about which races do what. Nobody's going to Tuckerize my dwarves. Sure, you're right, it'd be possible to Tuckerize every race. By all means, make a thread for Tucker's Elves, Tucker's Dwarves, Tucker's Half-drow, whatever races you feel like Tuckerizing. Just remember that it has no real relevance to the actual argument in this thread.


A lot of you people seem to be missing the point. People keep saying "If you give them anything other than the basics they aren't the Tucker kobolds any more." People keep arguing about where the kobolds get their supplies and whether they have people with magic or craft skills. You know what? Screw that. It says right in the original story that the point wasn't to let the DM say "Hahaha lolz you guys lost to kobolds you suck," it was to shake things up a little. He even recommended using higher-level, nastier monsters. True, a bunch of first-level kobolds would have a lot of trouble getting things like alchemist's fire. But how about higher-level kobolds? Tucker's Doppelgangers? Tucker's Great Wyrm Red Dragons, for the epic party? Tucker's kobolds are largely irrelevant compare to Tucker's encounters. So can we please shift the focus of this thread from "Where do kobolds get supplies and gold? Where do they get lizard power? How should they divide their labor to get the best ratio of supply gathering and construction? Are they alone in their paranoia? Etc?" to something a little more constructive? Like the question of whether it's fair for a DM to run a Tucker encounter. That's good. That's progress. So is it fair? How could you run a Tucker encounter that didn't devolve into a DM fiat grudge monster?

That's my two coppers. Take them as you will.

[Starbuck_II]

A lot of you people seem to be missing the point. People keep saying "If you give them anything other than the basics they aren't the Tucker kobolds any more." People keep arguing about where the kobolds get their supplies and whether they have people with magic or craft skills. You know what? Screw that. It says right in the original story that the point wasn't to let the DM say "Hahaha lolz you guys lost to kobolds you suck," it was to shake things up a little.

No, the point is that a few traps make a ordinarily weak monster (which they were in 2nd edition: no levels and all) to be a fearsome worry in numbers.

Remember: these guys all have 1-4 hps.

Some of the suggestions hear would have obliterated tucker's kobolds. The players panicked and that panic almost killed them.

The idea was it was unexpected. If every Kobold becomes Tucker's then you lose the fear that it was ther kobolds. It becomes DM fiat of how they could afford that much.



So can we please shift the focus of this thread from "Where do kobolds get supplies and gold? Where do they get lizard power? How should they divide their labor to get the best ratio of supply gathering and construction? Are they alone in their paranoia? Etc?" to something a little more constructive?


No, I think we should return to Tucker's addons: http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

He gave them:
Extra Cleverness (more than they should have)
murder holes (a building feature) in ceiling and wall: shot stuff and threw stuff at them.
They can lock door by a switch
Set corridors on fire (oil?)
Alchemist fire
small Tunnels throughout area for better movement.

That was it. No pit traps (the acid baths weren't the kobolds). Nothing expensive besides alchemist fire.

First, Tucker's group has some issues: no one had fire resistance. No one had invisibility? I mean they were killing powerful demons.

So first issue: They were not well prepared for minor energy damage (fire doesn't deal that much, yet they feared it), they had blaster mages, etc.

[Bayar]

No, only in a web enhancement did they get that ability to count as tiny. What books are you building these Kobolds as?

It is a web enhancement for an official book. It has only kobold related stuff. It is valid to use it.


They decanters are borrowed from the local aqueducts and irrigation systems.
No more discrepancy.

Yes, and they borrowed the decanters to flood the kobolds. WHY ? Give me a good reason for a party of adventurers to get a crazzap of decanters just to flood the kobold lair. Until it is a viable IN GAME justification, I label this as bullcrap.



Well, yes you do.
All of the kobolds are building traps, remember?
There are none left to mine, smelt, forage, or thieve.

Who said that they all build traps ? All those traps were build in time. Years, decades, centuries. That is like saying that every human started working on the stronghold's walls and stopped farming/mining/lumberjacking/weaving/whatever. Implying that every kobold only builds traps and doesnt do anything else: you clearly underestimate the inteligence and wisdom of these creatures.


Yep.
Cloth has a hardness and hit points, and constitutes a barrier.
There is no blow through damage in D&D.

Once the unseen servant dies, what then ? Oh, and how much cloth can you put on an unseen servant ? How much can he carry ?


Actually, they cannot.
Again, you said they are all building traps and super-drainage systems.

See above. They can and will because they are not idiots.


Suicide runs mean they all die.
When the kobolds are all dead, the PCs can just walk in and claim their empty lair.

****tons of kobolds overwhelm strongholds and fortresses. A party of adventurers will be swarmed preety fast. If they didnt die in the pit trap.


Gnomes do not get relics of their own?

Kobolds are immune to gnomish mercenaries? Or are they just immune to being beaten at all?

No. Gnomes just suck. Except Whisper Gnomes.


Of course the elves are omnipresent in their woods, just as the kobolds face no threats or have any requirements other than dealing with PCs.
Yes, the elves do have orc traps too. As I noted, the elves have been there hundreds of years. They have had tons of time to prepare for anything.

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

Elves live for a long time. ok, they can make traps of their own. And they can make orcish traps. Now, should I remind you that if they only make traps, they wont have food ? Because they only build traps. For an eternity. Which they wont because elves are not idiots (but they still suck).

Heh, travelling in a Tuckeresque setting would be like World of Horrors. Enter the wrong tavern and the ceiling collapses on you. Go to the outhouse and die from the contact poison on the toilet seat. Buy a horse and it explodes. Wonder how things can live in that world.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It is a web enhancement for an official book. It has only kobold related stuff. It is valid to use it.
That isn't a universally accepted premise. Web enhancements are often distrusted.

Stereotypical kobolds are subhuman creatures living in the earth to be used only as cannon fodder. Crank up the reality a little bit and you get a race living in well-defended and trapped tunnels, with an organized magic system. Crank up the reality a little bit more and you get Tucker's Kobolds. Crank up the reality a little bit more and you realize that between fast maturation, the ability to subsist on any organic matter, and perpetual and universal racial unity and pride; kobolds are overpowered.

Instant racial unity? Universal confidence? Hunger as a non-issue? A childhood a third of the length of a human's and a longer lifespan? Massively quick breeding? Wizards went a little overboard buffing the "puny" kobolds. Their psychology is unrealistic, and their physiology more so (but they tend to get off easy on the "physiology" point due to the prevalence of monsters). If you give them the benefits of civilization on top of their monster powers, of course they can overpower the outmoded little gnomes/humans/whatever.

[Frosty]

It is unlikely for a random kobold warren to have been there for decades and centuries. If it has been ther efor that long, it has become a kobold EMPIRE, which is definitely of higher CR.

[Xey42]

Slight thread detail, I read a post earlier today by someone who said something about breeding spider's for poison. Doesn't work since spiders are vicious cannibals who require a large amount of space and solitude to survive. Why we don't breed them now for their silk (they also don't make very much, points aside), which is considerably better than silk as it would have us all walking around in nearly indestructible, bulletproof T-shirts (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Scientists+Weave+Spider+Silk+Into+New+Bulletproof+ Vests-a068872427). (slight exaggeration)

sorry, back on track

Perhaps stick to poisonous frogs and mushrooms :P Given that bullfrogs can lay up to 20000 eggs in a clutch that'll mature in a year, with the fantasy equivalent, the warren doesn't have to have been around for decades to have a huge supply of poison..

Hey! they could use all that extra water from the water decanters every body has been talking about to raise the tadpoles!

[Starbuck_II]

Perhaps stick to poisonous frogs and mushrooms :P Given that bullfrogs can lay up to 20000 eggs in a clutch that'll mature in a year, with the fantasy equivalent, the warren doesn't have to have been around for decades to have a huge supply of poison..

Hey! they could use all that extra water from the water decanters every body has been talking about to raise the tadpoles!

Using bullfrogs as tools will upset Wastri: the hopping Prophet, a god of amphibians and humans. Since you are likely using this poison to kill humans; he will definately not like you doing this. So I'd avoid frogs for poison plan unless the kobolds want divine wrath.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

We're also talking about something far less impressive of a construction project than a pyramid. A warren is how they live....The idea that they protect themselves with pit traps isn't really that out there.

Hell, small, primitive tribes manage to do it, why couldn't kobolds, who are decently bright, and have the advantage of a natural knack for sorcerery?

Now, you're going to see certain types of traps. Deadfalls, pit traps, primitive poisons, rigged up non-resetting crossbow, that sort of thing, not elaborate moving wall sorts of traps, but you CAN make a place dangerous by cramming a ton of inexpensive traps into a small area. Even if each isn't that dangerous on it's own, the quantity makes all sorts of things tricky for an unprepared newcomer.

[Lycanthromancer]

We're also talking about something far less impressive of a construction project than a pyramid. A warren is how they live....The idea that they protect themselves with pit traps isn't really that out there.

Hell, small, primitive tribes manage to do it, why couldn't kobolds, who are decently bright, and have the advantage of a natural knack for sorcerery?

Now, you're going to see certain types of traps. Deadfalls, pit traps, primitive poisons, rigged up non-resetting crossbow, that sort of thing, not elaborate moving wall sorts of traps, but you CAN make a place dangerous by cramming a ton of inexpensive traps into a small area. Even if each isn't that dangerous on it's own, the quantity makes all sorts of things tricky for an unprepared newcomer.

Not to mention synergy amongst traps. Portcullis trap (to prevent escape) + archers (to inflict damage and keep the PCs distracted) + marbles & slope trap (to restrict mobility and pull PCs downhill) + greased bridge (same as the marbles) + pit trap with spikes (as the coup de grace). That's a lot to take in all at once, and they all work toward one common goal: get the PCs in the pit trap.

Similar things can be done with caltrops combined with some moving component (a rolling boulder, acidic gas clouds, a flooding hallway), and some way to restrict or prevent flight (such as narrow and/or low hallways, a powerful natural downdraft, or a dead magic area).

Just as with encounters with creatures, putting two or more different parts together can be considerably more challenging than putting similar creatures of equal CR together.

[Xey42]

Out of curiosity, why stick with bows and crossbows? I'm a bit stuck on the idea of using primitive poisons to kill off PC's with stat damage (which, despite the fear of various amphibian god's wraths, is possible on many fronts). Why not use blowguns and poisoned tipped darts? Primitive tribesmen use it to great effect, and it would make the openings required to fire through a wall extremely tiny (2 quarter sized holes, one with a cone to aim, the other to see) disguised as part of a wall.

Eliminates effective means of retaliation as they have total cover and to jam anything through would require action against the wall itself first to make a hole. Dozens of pin pricks and saves, somebodies going to feel something, and 3 damage from a lucky crossbow is nothing next to 3 con damage from a lucky blow dart. And we haven't even progressed past tribal human technical abilities yet, let alone medieval.

Also note that this is not a tactic that would be devised to counteract any specific PC threat through GM fiat, and seems a completely normal way to defend their home against any variety of intruder.

People seem to forget that we've been killing each other for as long as we've been around, and been awfully good at it too, without the aid of anything technologically fancy. It only makes sense that in a DnD world, which is a million times more dangerous than ours, that something of a match to our intelligence would muster a surprisingly lethal defense against vastly superior forces.

[Raum]

Traps aren't the point of Tucker's Kobolds. It's not "King Kobold's Tomb of Horrors". The original article is about using terrain, tactics, and - most of all - thinking outside the box.

It's a warren of very small tunnels in three dimensions. Murder holes are probably more common than traps (easier to build, won't hurt your tribe, and usable as spy holes), choke points and intersections are common (it's a maze - think of as an ant farm), and tactics rely on mobility, surprise, and hit and runs. Worst of all from an attackers point of view, the kobolds are proficient enough at mining to close or collapse tunnels and even open short new connecting tunnels...so the maze isn't static.

It's not impossible to take them out. It's simply a very costly nightmare. Costing far more than any adventurers could hope to gain from 'mere' kobolds. Hence the original story's 'running the gauntlet' to reach non-kobold infested areas.

[Tiktakkat]

Traps aren't the point of Tucker's Kobolds. It's not "King Kobold's Tomb of Horrors". The original article is about using terrain, tactics, and - most of all - thinking outside the box.

Those same factors should have been just as usable by the PCs.
For whatever reason, the ones in the story did not do so.
And naturally, it invites a response of the tactics that others would use in similar circumstances.


It's not impossible to take them out. It's simply a very costly nightmare. Costing far more than any adventurers could hope to gain from 'mere' kobolds. Hence the original story's 'running the gauntlet' to reach non-kobold infested areas.

By the story, it is obvious that it cost far more to try to evade them.
Not having to run the gauntlet every time is a significant gain.

[AstralFire]

Ladies and gentlemen:

Tucker's kender.

Commence screaming.

[Lycanthromancer]

Ladies and gentlemen:

Tucker's kender.

Commence screaming.

EEEEE!





IT'S ASTRALFIRE!!!

Oh...that wasn't what you meant at all, was it...?

[Drakyn]

Ladies and gentlemen:

Tucker's kender.

Commence screaming.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH.

But wait....how do you get them to remember what they're supposed to be doing again? How can you have them form any sort of plan? Lay ambushes that won't be distracted by shiny objects? Is tucker's kender just chucking about forty of them at a problem and hoping it runs away screaming?

....I guess that'd work. On players at least.

[AstralFire]

You go to bed in your magnificent mansion with 800,000 GP worth of items on you; you wake up naked. In Africa. With some fig leaves and an angry male silverback gorilla.

The gorilla is awakened and is a spells to power erudite.

[Drakyn]

You go to bed in your magnificent mansion with 800,000 GP worth of items on you; you wake up naked. In Africa. With some fig leaves and an angry male silverback gorilla.

The gorilla is awakened and is a spells to power erudite.

On the plus side, for this chain of events to transpire, odds are at least half the kender died while causing it due to uncontrollable shinies-related incidents. A net gain, and something to comfort you as you are drawn into the gorilla's steely, surly grasp.
It's like the Kevin Bacon game. Except every degree of relation is held together by an "Oops!" and explosion and little tiny bones.

[dyslexicfaser]

How would a Tucker's Hobgoblins encounter play out?

I seem to remember them being a martial society, good at formations and such. Would they keep in contact at regular intervals - if you take out a patrol, they know you're in the area within minutes? Are they good at any particular magics? Or are they just too 'charge in and start swinging' to be a credible Tucker?

Would players be hounded to the beat of marching hobgoblin feet and hobgoblin wardrums, or would the humanoids bite it without the tricksy murder holes and traps of their kobold counterparts?

[sonofzeal]

How would a Tucker's Hobgoblins encounter play out?

I seem to remember them being a martial society, good at formations and such. Would they keep in contact at regular intervals - if you take out a patrol, they know you're in the area within minutes? Are they good at any particular magics? Or are they just too 'charge in and start swinging' to be a credible Tucker?

Would players be hounded to the beat of marching hobgoblin feet and hobgoblin wardrums, or would the humanoids bite it without the tricksy murder holes and traps of their kobold counterparts?
Hobgoblins are unique among goblinoids in that they're highly Lawful. In my take on them, they border on Axiomatic. Rigid formations, tactical fighting, little sense of individuality, an ability to follow orders without question and sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

One of my NPCs in one game was a Hobgoblin Fighter with Improved Unarmed, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, and Rapid Shot. He'd climb something tall and start firing down arrows, and be highly resistant to return fire due to Deflect. If anyone got up there, he'd Grapple them to chuck them down. Simple trick, but nearly took out an equal-level (lvl4) party before he flubbed a few rolls and went down. Would have been different with a blaster wizard in the party, but it's still how I see hobgoblin tactics working - tactical, efficient, good use of terrain, good use of mixing and matching abilities.

[Bayar]

How would a Tucker's Hobgoblins encounter play out?

I seem to remember them being a martial society, good at formations and such. Would they keep in contact at regular intervals - if you take out a patrol, they know you're in the area within minutes? Are they good at any particular magics? Or are they just too 'charge in and start swinging' to be a credible Tucker?

Would players be hounded to the beat of marching hobgoblin feet and hobgoblin wardrums, or would the humanoids bite it without the tricksy murder holes and traps of their kobold counterparts?

There is something like this in World's Largest Dungeon.

Basically, Hobgoblins recruit and train normal Goblins for their army bulk. Hobgoblins act as officers (bards/clerics/wizards/sorcerers), each keeping their squad ready to crush any enemy. And when enemies enter their dungeon, they will eventually succumb to the sheer number of goblins buffed by bards/clerics/marshals/whatever.

Elite guards composed of hobgoblins, with a bit more levels under their belts, designed to take out significant threats (PC's).

They have built their stronghold into the face of a cliff, and it extends underground where the leader and his advisors reside. They use either weaker goblins or slaves to work in the mines/build the arhitecture. They also have a drawbrige at the face of the cliff that can be raised. Surrounding the cliff is a deep ditch filled with tall sharp iron spikes.

They take food from surrounding settlements and lumber from nearby forests (if these do not exist, it is probably because the hobgoblins already depleted the supplies available. They are not idiots and would not build a stronghold where conditions are not favorable).

[lord_khaine]

But the kobolds have had (potentially) years of preparation-time, it's their home-turf, and they can set the battlefield to suit them well ahead of time.


Yes, but there is a limit to how much a small race can carve out of rock with fantasy level technology, also there is a limit to how many traps you can fit into 1 place.


Uh...the boards aren't nailed down, instead just sliding into the wall? Note that at least one side of the wall is hollow, meaning that the kobolds can just slide them right in when it suits them.

It's nice, simple, and quite effective. A modular koboldian lair!


Are you quite aware off how much rock you are talking about there? you are suggesting the kobolds hollow out ½ a mountain.
At this point the party can proberly kill the entire tripe, just by setting fire to all the boards, and a simple levitate spell solves most of the problems with a missing floor.


Note that this is where they're luring adventurers. They love making tricky traps. Why not have a place in their warrens specifically for them to apply their favorite hobbies, and protect their homes at the same time? The kobolds' main living areas are well away from the traps, where most Small or larger creatures would find incredibly difficult (if not frequently impossible) to enter.

The kobolds know they're on the bottom of the food-chain; if that were me, I know I'd do everything I could to work smarter rather than harder (since, being a kobold, I'm not exactly a physical powerhouse). I can sure ply my deviously clever mind to the task, though. It's not like I have anything better to do...

But the problem is, when you are level 1 then you are really bottom, meaning you cant build a trap someone of higher level cant spot.
And their level of technologi puts a limit to how much they can do with traps.
When people suggest feats of engineering that would be consideret tricky by todays standard, then there is no way kobolds would have a living chance.


The PCs are running after the kobolds at this point. The flood of marbles is unexpected, sudden, and right underfoot at the worst possible time. You're telling me you could run down a slope filled with minuscule glass spheres and have no chance at all of falling on your ass?


Im saying i would either run faster than the beads, or slow enough to let them pass by me.
and of course, i wont be running in a kobold lair if i can avoid it at all.


This is part of the reason why there are so many pieces to the encounter. The sloping tunnel, the open pit, the floor covered in marbles, the illusion of darkness, and the other kobolds firing arrows are a bit distracting. They likely won't even realize the kobolds are there at first, given that they can't see them. When they do sort things out, the kobolds die. The kobolds served their purpose; to make a difficult encounter for higher level PCs out of some CR 1/4 creatures.

I think the illusion of darkness would do more to hurt the kobolds than the adventures, and as i have stated before then i really dont belive in the marbles.


Jars filled with mold can be thrown, there are rules for setting things on fire, and an oil-soaked cloth rag can be tied to an arrow rather easily. It might apply a penalty to the attack roll, but attacking a 5' space has a DC of 5 (and mold reacts to sources of flames within 5', meaning they can only really miss completely on a Nat 1). Not exactly out of the range of your average kobold, even with penalties.

It still means 2 kobolds have to get dangerously close to the party, and a singel member acting at the wrong time could ruin the entire plan with a arrow.


The kobolds' tricks and traps and cunning plans should be about as clever as the cleverest of the kobolds in the warren. If there's a level 4 elderly expert with 22 Int directing things (not completely out of the realm of possibility), I'd expect fiendish cleverness to be afoot, regardless of what intellect levels are present in the entire rest of the warren.

Fine, that about as smart as the party wizard/psion.
And would still mean most of them would not know what to do in the face of the unexpectet (like a plague of undead cats).


And you know? I'm nowhere near Int 22, and I'm capable of coming up with some really nasty, yet extremely simple, traps of my own. All it takes is a dedication to protecting what's yours (which kobolds have), and some cleverness (likewise). If I can come up with these things, you can bet that kobolds, trained in deviousness from hatchling-age, could most certainly do the same.

In any case, the point of the whole affair is that kobolds are capable of such things. Why wouldn't they use them, since the entire world seems hell-bent on wiping them out? If anything, if you're setting out a warren of kobolds that has had time to settle in, and they aren't doing things like this, you're doing it wrong.


Nasty traps? yes
Possible traps? maybe

As i mentioned before, the main issue i have with your traps is that most of them does not even sound remotely likely, the exception being the mold thingy, that might actualy annoy a lower level party.

[Bayar]

Yes, but there is a limit to how much a small race can carve out of rock with fantasy level technology, also there is a limit to how many traps you can fit into 1 place.

Umm, again, go read Races of the Dragon. Kobolds count as medium creatures when it comes to progress on the number of 5ft cubes you can dig out with Profession (miner) checks, but count as small characters when it comes to how many can work in a certain space. Plus, they have ditherbombs (kobold bombs) to clear out big amounts of earth.

They could easily clear out 2 5ft cubes in 8 hours, and working in 2 shifts (or 3 if you want around the clock activity), 2 teams of 4 kobolds can clear out 4 5ft cubes a day. And that is only one dig site.

So they mine more efficiently than humans or eve dwarves in the same fantasy setting.

And your claim that their tehnology is limited only shows that you have a narrow view point of something that is not human but has the potential to be better than humans.


Are you quite aware off how much rock you are talking about there? you are suggesting the kobolds hollow out ½ a mountain.

Mines can go downwards too, not just straight into a mountain.


But the problem is, when you are level 1 then you are really bottom, meaning you cant build a trap someone of higher level cant spot.
And their level of technologi puts a limit to how much they can do with traps.
When people suggest feats of engineering that would be consideret tricky by todays standard, then there is no way kobolds would have a living chance.

Again, assumptions that kobolds are baling idiots. They get racial bonuses to both Craft (trapmaking) and Profession (mining). And apparently, you are not familiar with the Aid Another mechanic.

Building the pyramids is still considered tricky by today's standard but hey, Egiptians erected them with only simple tools and techniques. Would saying that just because we consider building pyramids like the egiptians did being tricky, the egiptians wouldnt have had a living chance to build them without the aid of aliens ?


I think the illusion of darkness would do more to hurt the kobolds than the adventures, and as i have stated before then i really dont belive in the marbles.

Darkvision. Yes, kobolds have that too.


Fine, that about as smart as the party wizard/psion.

Ok, the previous poster exagerated with the 22 INT. I'd say a 14 for very clever individuals and 16 for absolute geniouses. Wont go into Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold territory because that is extremely improbable for every warren in the world.


And would still mean most of them would not know what to do in the face of the unexpectet (like a plague of undead cats).

Hmm, wonder what those priests of Kurtulmak are doing about now...


As i mentioned before, the main issue i have with your traps is that most of them does not even sound remotely likely, the exception being the mold thingy, that might actualy annoy a lower level party.

Pit traps, schything blade traps, murderholes etc dont sound even remotely likely ? Ok, if you say so.


Would you be happy if we just say your party killed the kobolds and you won ? Would you be glad you are a human and that you defeated the kobold menace ? Fine. You killed them with your decanters of Endless water. Go back to your adventuring now.

[Raum]

Those same factors should have been just as usable by the PCs.
For whatever reason, the ones in the story did not do so.Err, perhaps they didn't fit in the kobold tunnels?

It would have taken a lot of reduce person / monster spells to go in after them...and even then you're entering an unknown maze. Any PCs thinking ahead are going to shudder when they consider what the result of a single successful dispel would be...

Put yourselves in the adventurers' shoes. Do you really want to spend a few weeks cleaning out a kobold lair for coppers and a few silvers? It's cheaper to run the gauntlet even if they do succeed in killing your mules. After all, you'll find far more than enough gold to replace them in the deeper tunnels...

[Starbuck_II]

Err, perhaps they didn't fit in the kobold tunnels?

Put yourselves in the adventurers' shoes. Do you really want to spend a few weeks cleaning out a kobold lair for coppers and a few silvers? It's cheaper to run the gauntlet even if they do succeed in killing your mules. After all, you'll find far more than enough gold to replace them in the deeper tunnels...

The kobolds were blocking the entrance to kill the flame demons in the story.
I mean, even basic fire protection would be useful: at least potions of fire protection if not scrolls.

[Radiun]

Dire Badgers (Kobold Mounts) can burrow through anything softer than solid rock at a speed of 10ft / round, leaving behind a 5ft tunnel.
So within a minute, A Kobold's calvary (perhaps borrowed from a neighbouring tribe, at least 4 Dire Badgers) could dig up to 240ft of tunnel that I think the Kobolds would be comfortable in.

Just thought I'd add that thought.

[Bayar]

Dire Badgers (Kobold Mounts) can burrow through anything softer than solid rock at a speed of 10ft / round, leaving behind a 5ft tunnel.
So within a minute, A Kobold's calvary (perhaps borrowed from a neighbouring tribe, at least 4 Dire Badgers) could dig up to 240ft of tunnel that I think the Kobolds would be comfortable in.

Just thought I'd add that thought.

Actually, they have their own dire weasel den, they breed them in their warrens.

And anything that is harder than solid rock, Kobolds can dig through it better.

[Radiun]

Actually, they have their own dire weasel den, they breed them in their warrens.

And anything that is harder than solid rock, Kobolds can dig through it better.

Oh my mistake, I honestly thought they rode Dire Badgers.

[Hurlbut]

Oh my mistake, I honestly thought they rode Dire Badgers.Well I recall an art of a gnome giving a treat to her badger.

[Starbuck_II]

Oh my mistake, I honestly thought they rode Dire Badgers.

No, Gnomes ride Dire Badgers.

[lord_khaine]

Umm, again, go read Races of the Dragon. Kobolds count as medium creatures when it comes to progress on the number of 5ft cubes you can dig out with Profession (miner) checks, but count as small characters when it comes to how many can work in a certain space. Plus, they have ditherbombs (kobold bombs) to clear out big amounts of earth.

They could easily clear out 2 5ft cubes in 8 hours, and working in 2 shifts (or 3 if you want around the clock activity), 2 teams of 4 kobolds can clear out 4 5ft cubes a day. And that is only one dig site.

So they mine more efficiently than humans or eve dwarves in the same fantasy setting.

And your claim that their tehnology is limited only shows that you have a narrow view point of something that is not human but has the potential to be better than humans.


And it seems you underestimate how hard it is to dig though rock.


Mines can go downwards too, not just straight into a mountain.


Yes? what does that have to do with anything.


Again, assumptions that kobolds are baling idiots. They get racial bonuses to both Craft (trapmaking) and Profession (mining). And apparently, you are not familiar with the Aid Another mechanic.

And it seems you are giving them a racial int bonus thats not mentioned in the books.
And even with the aid another then there are limits to how many can aid you, not to mention what you can afford.


Building the pyramids is still considered tricky by today's standard but hey, Egiptians erected them with only simple tools and techniques. Would saying that just because we consider building pyramids like the egiptians did being tricky, the egiptians wouldnt have had a living chance to build them without the aid of aliens ?


The pyramids were also the product of a entire country, and would mostly be tricky to build because its such a huge task.


Darkvision. Yes, kobolds have that too.

Did you miss the illusion part? darkvision doesnt do anything against those except showing its not natural darkness.


Hmm, wonder what those priests of Kurtulmak are doing about now...
proberly discovering they cant be everywhere at once.


Pit traps, schything blade traps, murderholes etc dont sound even remotely likely ? Ok, if you say so.

Dont bother replying to my posts if you cant even be bothered to check out what kind of traps im talking about, those traps are a long shot away from hollowing out a mountain, and will only be a annoyance for a party of decent level.


Would you be happy if we just say your party killed the kobolds and you won ? Would you be glad you are a human and that you defeated the kobold menace ? Fine. You killed them with your decanters of Endless water. Go back to your adventuring now.


No, it would make me happy if you would stop insisting its the kobolds that are the challenge, and not the trappet mountains of dm fiat.
kobolds without class level are a challenge for a beginning party, and with clever tactics they might also be a threat to a lowlv group, but there is a limit.

[Radiun]

No, Gnomes ride Dire Badgers.

That makes no type of sense to me, what with badgers being burrowing rage-a-holics

Edit: Gnomes should ride Dire Ant-Eaters, they both have big noses and are just plain weird :-P

[Starbuck_II]

That makes no type of sense to me, what with badgers being burrowing rage-a-holics

Edit: Gnomes should ride Dire Ant-Eaters, they both have big noses and are just plain weird :-P

Gnomes live in hills. Hills don't have natutal burrows to live in.
Definate synergy.

[Bayar]

Gnomes live in hills. Hills don't have natutal burrows to live in.
Definate synergy.

Plus, gnomes can speak with burrowing animals.

[Lycanthromancer]

No, Gnomes ride Dire Badgers.And kobolds ride dire gnomes?


Yes, but there is a limit to how much a small race can carve out of rock with fantasy level technology, also there is a limit to how many traps you can fit into 1 place.Picks are quite capable of digging through loose soil and stones, and can chip through rocks well enough; not to mention that they have access to crowbar/lever technology, wheels and pulleys, and other simple machines, as well as trained animals (such as dire weasels) to provide the muscle to make the most of those labor-saving devices. Really, simple technology can be incredibly useful at multiplying work (assuming it's used intelligently, which is a perfectly viable strategy for kobolds, which are just as intelligent as all the other common races, up to and including 18 Int or higher), even without the information from Races of the Dragon.

And then there's also acid splash (useful both for this, for tripping traps, and for other potential utility purposes), prestidigitation (always useful no matter the circumstances), grease (to help with dragging things around), mount (for hauling and muscle), summon monster I (for short bursts of burrowing and the like), and unseen servant, true strike (for that pickaxe strike to hit just the right spot to crack that stubborn boulder in half, enlarge/reduce person (to increase muscle power or to shrink an item that then blows back up to full size after letting go of it, which can split boulders by itself), magic weapon (for increasing digging speed for those pickaxes), and create water and ray of frost (to freeze water and expand cracks). Energy ray (use sonic), hammer, control object, astral construct, psionic minor creation, call weaponry, and dissipating touch (to include psionics). And none of those even get to 2nd level (see: shatter).

There're also feats available which will speed this up immensely. Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Psionic Shot, Psionic Weapon, Focused Sunder, and so on.

You also have lighting fires fueled with bone (which burns extremely hot) to weaken the structure of the stone, any of various explosive compounds to blast the rocks apart, animals which have interesting abilities (beetles with the ability to shoot acid, badgers that dig).

Really, a race whose nearly sole focus is on mining, building traps, and survival at all costs should be flat-out experts at doing so. Which is why I said if you're not playing them like this, you're doing it wrong.


Are you quite aware off how much rock you are talking about there? you are suggesting the kobolds hollow out ½ a mountain.About a 20 ft x 20 ft x 10 ft space full. Which weighs a lot, but remember that the kobolds have hollowed out all of this stone anyways, so they might as well make use of it. And most of it is in small chunks, which would be simple enough to cart around.


At this point the party can proberly kill the entire tripe, just by setting fire to all the boards, and a simple levitate spell solves most of the problems with a missing floor.So they set fire to the boards in the floor. The door is barricaded by now, and the PCs are stuck in a room filled with smoke (so they're choking and suffocating) with no floor and a whole bunch of poisonous vermin crawling around, and a bunch of sharpened stakes just waiting for that levitate spell to give out. Meanwhile, the kobolds are sniping at them from holes too small for the monstrous vermin to squeeze through.

How is this a good thing for anybody but the kobolds?


But the problem is, when you are level 1 then you are really bottom, meaning you cant build a trap someone of higher level cant spot.Someone who specializes in a thing can get quite high DCs as low as level 1. They might not be good at much else, but they can do that quite well enough.

Not counting illusions (which don't grant a save unless directly interacted with), a 1st level kobold expert can make a Craft DC of 36 every time, which is opposed by Search for the purposes of finding the trap (and only then if the searcher has Trapfinding). Take 10 + 4 ranks + 4 Int + 2 mw tools + 3 Skill Focus + 2 racial bonus + 10 Aid Another (from 5 other kobolds) + 1 guidance cantrip from a nearby cleric. A kobold psion could be 5 points higher, with +3 from a psicrystal, and +2 from precognition..


And their level of technologi puts a limit to how much they can do with traps.Nothing I've suggested so far takes anything beyond simple tools and level 0 and 1 spells. We haven't even gotten to simple machines yet, which humans have been using since the stone age, which would get even more fun.


When people suggest feats of engineering that would be consideret tricky by todays standard, then there is no way kobolds would have a living chance.Tricky? No.

Everything so far has been very simple. Holes in the wall, boards held up by ledges or lynch-pins. Sharpened stakes. Pits. Marbles. Razor wire. Poisonous vermin. Grease spells.

We haven't even gotten to more complicated ones that use simple machines.

How complicated do you think these things are?


Im saying i would either run faster than the beads, or slow enough to let them pass by me.You're already sprinting down a tunnel. They're released under your feet as you're running. You have to make a Spot check to even know they're there (either with Darkvision or in the wavery light of a torch), then a Balance check each round to keep from falling on your arse. You do have ranks in Balance, right Mr. Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Fighter?


and of course, i wont be running in a kobold lair if i can avoid it at all.You will if they've taken something you want; otherwise, goodbye kobolds.


I think the illusion of darkness would do more to hurt the kobolds than the adventures, and as i have stated before then i really dont belive in the marbles.The kobolds know it's an illusion, and so get a +4 to the save. You can't interact with it without going through it, meaning you don't even get a save.

And the kobolds don't care if you believe in the marbles or not. They do, and they've used this ploy before (and it worked - DM’s prerogative). They wouldn't try something like this without testing it to make sure it works. That's part of the Take 10 aspect of trapbuilding.


It still means 2 kobolds have to get dangerously close to the party, and a singel member acting at the wrong time could ruin the entire plan with a arrow.Delayed actions are a wonderful thing. Can't mess up the initiative.

Also, the kobolds can easily lob the jars from murder-holes, meaning they get full cover any time they’re not actively throwing a mold grenade. Move action to stand up, standard to fire, free (or swift, if the DM is a bit stricter on action economy) to drop to the ground and out of line of sight. And there could be half a dozen or more in a single room doing this, so even with readied actions to take the kobolds down, it’d take several rounds’ worth of actions to get rid of them all. And then you have the archers, who stand by with a small fire, or torch, use a move action to light the prepared arrows, a standard to fire, then a swift to drop out of sight. Meanwhile, the fire gets snuffed out by the mold when it comes too close, dealing extra cold damage to the PCs, and any arrows that actually strike a PC are for bonus points.

Yes, the kobolds may very well die, but they’ve served their purpose: to harry the PCs, cause damage all out of proportion to their CR 1/4 (or 1, for single-classed ones) selves, and to protect the warren from the genocidal invaders.


Fine, that about as smart as the party wizard/psion.Yes. As smart as that. And there’s bound to be one or two around somewhere. The spread of kobold Int is the same as humans, and they breed much more quickly, meaning survival of the fittest takes over. The ones who have the most devious, strongest minds are likely the ones to be best-protected by the tribe, and so they’re the most likely to make it to old age. 18 starting Int + 3 for age + 1 for being 4th level (since those kobolds have been spending the vast majority of their lives gaining XP from all the adventurers their traps have killed).

Even Int 14-16 kobolds would basically be considered genius-level intellect amongst modern humans. And there are about as many of them as there are 4-6 Int kobolds in a given tribe...at least, as are born with those Int scores. They’re more likely to survive into middle age, meaning the proportion of smart kobolds would actually be higher, all things considered.


And would still mean most of them would not know what to do in the face of the unexpectet (like a plague of undead cats).No kobolds would ever consider putting hatches on their tunnels for just this situation? Remember, they’re everyone else’s prey. They know they’re hunted, and they’re smart enough to have contingency plans.

In their position, I’d be pulling as much Batman out of my arse as I could, and spend my spare time fortifying my home in every way I could think of.

They’re not stupid. They’re as smart as humans, and have far more reason to put in the effort to protect themselves (being every other race’s whipping-boys). They live in a constant state of paranoia. Outrunning people who bring in hunting dogs (and cats) would be exactly the sort of thing they’d protect against.

Also, remember that they’re Small creatures. If you’re using the web enhancement, they count as Tiny when it benefits them. And any creature can squeeze at half-speed through a space half their size, so they can squeeze themselves through Diminutive-sized spaces (about the diameter of a human fist). It’s part of what makes kobolds so good at the Tucker’s schtick. It increases their mobility so that they can’t be pursued. Hit and run, and the tribe survives above all.


Nasty traps? YesDefinitely. Simple, but deadly.


Possible traps? Maybe...Huh?


As i mentioned before, the main issue i have with your traps is that most of them does not even sound remotely likely, the exception being the mold thingy, that might actualy annoy a lower level party.Believe it or not, that’s what they can do. Those DC 36 Craft checks? They can accomplish a whole friggin helluvalot, considering how simple excessively deadly traps can be.

[Starbuck_II]

And kobolds ride dire gnomes?

Picks are quite capable of digging through loose soil and stones, and can chip through rocks well enough; not to mention that they have access to crowbar/lever technology, wheels and pulleys, and other simple machines, as well as trained animals (such as dire weasels) to provide the muscle to make the most of those labor-saving devices. Really, simple technology can be incredibly useful at multiplying work (assuming it's used intelligently, which is a perfectly viable strategy for kobolds, which are just as intelligent as all the other common races, up to and including 18 Int or higher), even without the information from Races of the Dragon.


Actually picks can't be used for Sunder: SRD -


Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished by the sunder special attack. Smashing an object is a lot like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your attack roll is opposed by the object’s AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.


So Picks can't actually function for mining.

[Bayar]

Actually picks can't be used for Sunder: SRD -

So Picks can't actually function for mining.

Dude, you dont sunder the earth, you pick it. Otherwise, would we have mines in RL ? I know it makes no sense.

[Tiktakkat]

Err, perhaps they didn't fit in the kobold tunnels?

It would have taken a lot of reduce person / monster spells to go in after them...and even then you're entering an unknown maze. Any PCs thinking ahead are going to shudder when they consider what the result of a single successful dispel would be...

They do not have to fit in the kobold tunnels, they just have to use the defensive terrain to benefit themselves.
A murder hole protects, but it also limits range of sight. Stay out of the line of sight, and use materials to block the hole as applicable.
Burning floors should produce smoke. A simple gust of wind spell blows it back at the kobolds, smoking them out with their own fire.
A couple of spikes should keep the door from being slammed shut behind you, and the spikes can easily be large enough that the kobolds would have difficulty dealing with them because of their small size.
Defensive terrain works both ways.


Put yourselves in the adventurers' shoes. Do you really want to spend a few weeks cleaning out a kobold lair for coppers and a few silvers? It's cheaper to run the gauntlet even if they do succeed in killing your mules. After all, you'll find far more than enough gold to replace them in the deeper tunnels...

They have 10s, or 100s, or 1,000,000s of gps worth of oil!
As for killing mules, they also killed all the hirelings and all the henchmen, costing not just the recruitment fees but also the equipment fees for all of them. Again, unless there is a hard time limit, it is significantly cheaper to spend a few weeks slaughtering the annoying kobolds rather than sacrficing all of the gold spent on such followers. And that does not include how much loot they feared losing running the gauntlet on the way back out.
Losing all the treasure from your last adventure and gaining no treasure for your current adventure is pretty significant to me.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Really, a race whose nearly sole focus is on mining, building traps, and survival at all costs should be flat-out experts at doing so. Which is why I said if you're not playing them like this, you're doing it wrong.

And a race whose sole focus is on pretty much anything will have an edge up on humans, because humans don't have that advantage. Humans have to be "realistic" and not racially obsessed with certain things. Humans can't use magic to become Tucker's Humans; they're stuck in medieval stasis. Monstrous races are allowed to use magic and unrealistic psychologies, but if you apply "realism" to these attributes and give them the Tucker's treatment, the handicaps humans have to deal with are apparent.

What are hobgoblins? Humans, except more organized, tougher, slightly less versatile, and racially unified. Tucker's Hobgoblins would be humans, except not held back by medieval stereotypes and in one united, perfectly cooperative empire.

[dyslexicfaser]

They do not have to fit in the kobold tunnels, they just have to use the defensive terrain to benefit themselves.
A murder hole protects, but it also limits range of sight. Stay out of the line of sight, and use materials to block the hole as applicable.
A second murder hole below the first sized for a blade, or alternating murder holes on either side of the passage, would probably put paid to that idea.

[Starbuck_II]

Dude, you dont sunder the earth, you pick it. Otherwise, would we have mines in RL ? I know it makes no sense.

No, it makes sense that Dwarfs favor axes if you realize axes can be used to sunder unlike Picks.

[Tiktakkat]

A second murder hole below the first sized for a blade, or alternating murder holes on either side of the passage, would probably put paid to that idea.

And the wall loses structural integrity, or you just bring an extra bearer with a tower shield.

No defensive measure is beyond being countered, just as no offensive measure is beyond being neutralized.

[Bayar]

No, it makes sense that Dwarfs favor axes if you realize axes can be used to sunder unlike Picks.

Dwarves dont use axes to chop earth. they are not idiots. Plus, the rules for mining dont mention sundering in any way or shape. It just says 8 hours of work/day.

And picks dont need to sunder. They need to pierce. Now go watch Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Lots of picks there that pierce everything. Not related to Tucker's Kobolds, but awesome anyway.


They do not have to fit in the kobold tunnels, they just have to use the defensive terrain to benefit themselves.


How do you use terrain to benefit you if you barely fit in the damn tunnel in the first place ?


And it seems you are giving them a racial int bonus thats not mentioned in the books.
And even with the aid another then there are limits to how many can aid you, not to mention what you can afford.

Humans dont get a racial bonus to INT. That doesnt stop them from doing clever stuff.

[Frosty]

I still say you HAVE to systematically destrain their terrain advanages. Either bring a Small Warblade or Crusader with Stone Dragon maneuvers readied to bash thru ANY barricade the kobolds can put up, or collapse the entire mountain.

If the kobolds have something you need, then should spent weeks scrying and figuring the one perfect moment to become ethereal, teleport in, shape the terrain to your liking, grab the item, then teleport back out. Nothing a bunch of high level casters can't do, and the kobolds don't have enough CL to dispel you (you can have rings of greater counterspell anyways). Or if you don't liketeleporting, you can always have your party create a distraction on the othe rsideof the mountain, become etehereal, and fly/ride an Ethereal Mount through the mountain from the other sidce and go straight to the object. How will the kobolds stop you? Do they even know Transdimensional Spell metamagic?

[icefractal]

I was thinking about Tucker's kobolds the other day, and I realized something. The original Tucker's kobolds used the same strategy to success that many players did, especially in older editions - when things get tough, get the heck away from the rules.

For instance, the rules say that the Giant is tougher than you, you're going to be dead in a couple rounds, and all you can do is try to attack it or run away. But when you do something outside the box, that the rules don't cover, you're in the land of DM interpretation - which may give you the chance you need. When actions are judged in a realistic fashion, all kinds of things become quite deadly. Sand in the eyes? That's got to be worth at least a round of blindness. Dropping a stalactite on their head? Could very well kill them.

In Tucker's, that's flipped around, and it's the kobolds who say "screw the rules". The rules say they have a couple HP and lousy weapons. But a somewhat realistic interpretation says that a pile of flaming debris is going to mess you up if you get trapped in it. And so the kobolds go outside the box entirely - flaming piles of debris pushed by poles, split-moving archers, lots of flaming oil - their pathetic stats don't matter if they don't use them.

[Superglucose]

No, it makes sense that Dwarfs favor axes if you realize axes can be used to sunder unlike Picks.

Mining has nothing to do with attacking. Yes, you can use an axe as a pick to help soften the earth, but you usually use a pick. The way a pick is used is to burry the tip into the ground, and then use the curved blade to use lever action to pry the earth up.

How can you do this with an axe? You can't.

So what the heck does sunderin have to do with mining?

[Optimystik]

How will the kobolds stop you? Do they even know Transdimensional Spell metamagic?

I'm with you; I have yet to see any convincing defense the lizards could throw up versus an incorporeal/ethereal foe.

[Starbuck_II]

So what the heck does sunderin have to do with mining?


In D&D, you can't hurt objects with piercing weapons.
Sunder= hurting an object.
So Mining can't be done with a pick.
Axes can be used to hurt objects (like earth) better mining than picks.

[Bayar]

In D&D, you can't hurt objects with piercing weapons.
Sunder= hurting an object.
So Mining can't be done with a pick.
Axes can be used to hurt objects (like earth) better mining than picks.

Profession (mining). Heard of it ? It uses Masterwork tools that cost 50 gold and weigh 1 lbs for a +2 to Profession (mining). And if that tool happens to be a mining pick, you just keep it in your inventory and rolla 1d20 to see if you mine stuff and if so, how much.

[Lycanthromancer]

I was thinking about Tucker's kobolds the other day, and I realized something. The original Tucker's kobolds used the same strategy to success that many players did, especially in older editions - when things get tough, get the heck away from the rules.

For instance, the rules say that the Giant is tougher than you, you're going to be dead in a couple rounds, and all you can do is try to attack it or run away. But when you do something outside the box, that the rules don't cover, you're in the land of DM interpretation - which may give you the chance you need. When actions are judged in a realistic fashion, all kinds of things become quite deadly. Sand in the eyes? That's got to be worth at least a round of blindness. Dropping a stalactite on their head? Could very well kill them.

In Tucker's, that's flipped around, and it's the kobolds who say "screw the rules". The rules say they have a couple HP and lousy weapons. But a somewhat realistic interpretation says that a pile of flaming debris is going to mess you up if you get trapped in it. And so the kobolds go outside the box entirely - flaming piles of debris pushed by poles, split-moving archers, lots of flaming oil - their pathetic stats don't matter if they don't use them.Screw the rules; I have kobolds!

[Tiktakkat]

How do you use terrain to benefit you if you barely fit in the damn tunnel in the first place ?

Many, many ways.
Starting with not trying to fit.

[sambo.]

my $0.02....

these sorts of encounters have been around for YEARS. "Tucker's" Kobolds is merely playing Kobolds as they should be played. at least, most of the kobold encounters i've had have been along those lines (admittedly, with reasonable caps on numbers limits)

heck, the SRD lists them as having an Int score of 10, that's high enough to figure out that going one-on-one, toe-to-toe with the greatsword wielding barbarian is a suicide mission.

imho: these sorts of encounters are awesome ways to keep a high-level party on their toes. party members may not die, or even be seriously injured dealing with "Tucker's Kobolds", but they should be going through spell-slots and other party resources at a great rate of knots.

the trick for the PC's, as mentioned, is to have the retreat/escape route clear. trying to charge past the Kobolds (as the party did in that link provided) is something of a major strategic and tactical blunder.

i'll also point out that Kobolds are light sensitive. little spells like Colour Spray can work wonders.

[lord_khaine]

Really, a race whose nearly sole focus is on mining, building traps, and survival at all costs should be flat-out experts at doing so. Which is why I said if you're not playing them like this, you're doing it wrong.


Yes, but even for experts there is a limit to what is possible, and simple technologi will only take you so far.

As for the very long list of magical and psionic abilities, then as far as i can see the only one that would have any real effect with a caster level of 1 would be mount, because of the longer duration.


About a 20 ft x 20 ft x 10 ft space full. Which weighs a lot, but remember that the kobolds have hollowed out all of this stone anyways, so they might as well make use of it. And most of it is in small chunks, which would be simple enough to cart around.


That would not be enough, to make sure you could remove the floor under the Roping party you would have to do this to every singel floor in the entire complex that a medium sized creature could get access to.


So they set fire to the boards in the floor. The door is barricaded by now, and the PCs are stuck in a room filled with smoke (so they're choking and suffocating) with no floor and a whole bunch of poisonous vermin crawling around, and a bunch of sharpened stakes just waiting for that levitate spell to give out. Meanwhile, the kobolds are sniping at them from holes too small for the monstrous vermin to squeeze through.

How is this a good thing for anybody but the kobolds?


You misunderstand me, instead of sending a party of adventures into the kobold lair, they just set fire to the floor and wait outside.


Not counting illusions (which don't grant a save unless directly interacted with), a 1st level kobold expert can make a Craft DC of 36 every time, which is opposed by Search for the purposes of finding the trap (and only then if the searcher has Trapfinding). Take 10 + 4 ranks + 4 Int + 2 mw tools + 3 Skill Focus + 2 racial bonus + 10 Aid Another (from 5 other kobolds) + 1 guidance cantrip from a nearby cleric. A kobold psion could be 5 points higher, with +3 from a psicrystal, and +2 from precognition..



Well, a active illusion means it can be found though detect magic.

And allowing a masterworked tool bonus opens up for allowing the trapfinder a simular bonus, from a 11 feet pole or something like that.
besides that the biggest bonus is from the Aid another option, and unfortunately i cant find clear rules on when you can do it and how many can do it, but when you allow it for the kobolds then the adventure party can also do it on their seach check.

All this is of course irrelevent if its a lv 1 summon carrying a bar of lead that triggers the trap.


Nothing I've suggested so far takes anything beyond simple tools and level 0 and 1 spells. We haven't even gotten to simple machines yet, which humans have been using since the stone age, which would get even more fun.


There was the suggestion about hollowing out the mountain so they could remove the floors at will.


Tricky? No.

Everything so far has been very simple. Holes in the wall, boards held up by ledges or lynch-pins. Sharpened stakes. Pits. Marbles. Razor wire. Poisonous vermin. Grease spells.

We haven't even gotten to more complicated ones that use simple machines.

How complicated do you think these things are?


still taking about the lair where you could remove the floor at will.


You're already sprinting down a tunnel. They're released under your feet as you're running. You have to make a Spot check to even know they're there (either with Darkvision or in the wavery light of a torch), then a Balance check each round to keep from falling on your arse. You do have ranks in Balance, right Mr. Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Fighter?


I might require a reflex save if the kobolds could manage to release the marbles without anyone finding out before its to late, but that alone would be a bit tricky.


You will if they've taken something you want; otherwise, goodbye kobolds.

Yes as in goodbye kobolds because i would start a slow genocide until they give me the thing back.


The kobolds know it's an illusion, and so get a +4 to the save. You can't interact with it without going through it, meaning you don't even get a save.

What are you talking about, the moment you are inside it you would get a save, not to mention that anyone with a few ranks in spellcraft would figure out its a illusion, and even with a +4 bonus the party proberly got a better will save than the kobolds.


And the kobolds don't care if you believe in the marbles or not. They do, and they've used this ploy before (and it worked - DM’s prerogative). They wouldn't try something like this without testing it to make sure it works. That's part of the Take 10 aspect of trapbuilding.


Well, i dont belive the marble idea is practical, and it doesnt matter how many test you do, there is allways flaws you dont find before it enters practical use.


Delayed actions are a wonderful thing. Can't mess up the initiative.

Also, the kobolds can easily lob the jars from murder-holes, meaning they get full cover any time they’re not actively throwing a mold grenade. Move action to stand up, standard to fire, free (or swift, if the DM is a bit stricter on action economy) to drop to the ground and out of line of sight. And there could be half a dozen or more in a single room doing this, so even with readied actions to take the kobolds down, it’d take several rounds’ worth of actions to get rid of them all. And then you have the archers, who stand by with a small fire, or torch, use a move action to light the prepared arrows, a standard to fire, then a swift to drop out of sight. Meanwhile, the fire gets snuffed out by the mold when it comes too close, dealing extra cold damage to the PCs, and any arrows that actually strike a PC are for bonus points.


Delayed actions also means they both have to come first in the initiative, meaning a singel arrow can ruin the strategy.

And as for the murder holes, i have allready stated that smart people dont stand under those.


Yes. As smart as that. And there’s bound to be one or two around somewhere. The spread of kobold Int is the same as humans, and they breed much more quickly, meaning survival of the fittest takes over. The ones who have the most devious, strongest minds are likely the ones to be best-protected by the tribe, and so they’re the most likely to make it to old age. 18 starting Int + 3 for age + 1 for being 4th level (since those kobolds have been spending the vast majority of their lives gaining XP from all the adventurers their traps have killed

I disagree about that survival of the fittest would mean its the smartest kobolds that survive, arguments could be made for every stat but str there, fx then a kobold with higher wis is less likely to die while testing a homemade trap.


No kobolds would ever consider putting hatches on their tunnels for just this situation? Remember, they’re everyone else’s prey. They know they’re hunted, and they’re smart enough to have contingency plans.


In this situation the excessive number of tunnels would work against the kobolds, and in the end they might be able to get rid of their skeletal invaders, though it would not be hard since to start with most kobolds are using picks.
and if they all end locked up in their lair then its still a victory.


Believe it or not, that’s what they can do. Those DC 36 Craft checks? They can accomplish a whole friggin helluvalot, considering how simple excessively deadly traps can be.

Well thats the issue, i dont belive thats what they can do, and even if it were, then as i have said before it would not be the kobolds thats the challenge any longer, but the traps.

[Bayar]

Screw the rules; I have kobolds!

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/rect4247.png

I love kobolds. And Pun Pun is my god.


Many, many ways.
Starting with not trying to fit.

Well, you cant defeat them if you dont enter their lair, so I dont see the point.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes, but even for experts there is a limit to what is possible, and simple technologi will only take you so far.I think you mean technology. Simple tech won't allow you to perform gene therapy, but it will let you kill people (in myriad and devious ways).

As was stated earlier, the pyramids were made using bronze-age technology; we'd have difficulty building those things today, using modern tech.

Inventiveness, cleverness, and a willingness to work toward an end count for a lot. Far more than you're giving them credit for. Otherwise, the pyramids wouldn't be in Egypt. Stonehenge wouldn't be in Wiltshire. And neither would the 887 moai on Easter Island. Or the Incan temples in Peru. And so on.

The ancient Greeks were capable of building combustion engines (although they weren't exactly common; they used them as toys and didn't grasp their usefulness as workhorses). The ancient Romans had indoor plumbing. Evidence suggests that the bronze-age cultures in Central America and Egypt were performing successful brain surgeries well before MRIs had been invented.

Don't underestimate the power of a sentient mind.


As for the very long list of magical and psionic abilities, then as far as i can see the only one that would have any real effect with a caster level of 1 would be mount, because of the longer duration.Anything that can multiply the workload being done at any given time (prestidigitation, unseen servant, mount), or grants the kobolds physical capabilities they otherwise wouldn't have (summon monster for brief bursts of burrowing, enlarge person for increased strength, reduce person to fit into excessively small spaces, or to wedge larger items into smaller spaces), or that causes structural damage (such as acid splash or water + ray of frost), etc, would be invaluable.

I hope you're not being serious; really, how can you not see how having spells that keep your workspace clean for fewer accidents, or damage rock and stone, or that can clear out 500 cu ft of dirt and gravel in 6 seconds, as anything but helpful in a mining situation?


That would not be enough, to make sure you could remove the floor under the Roping party you would have to do this to every singel floor in the entire complex that a medium sized creature could get access to.You wouldn't have to worry about the main tunnels being wood, for one. And that's just two different scenarios for dealing with rope trick. There are others. You could throw a bunch of garbage in the general area of the genocidal invaders (in a few dozen spaces, so that it covers the floor for quite a ways and can't easily be put out), set it on fire, then throw up thin plywood walls to trap the smoke in, toss a few large pieces of detritus behind the walls to slow down attempts at sundering, and wait for them to suffocate. The smoke will help inhibit attempts to escape, and if they don't expend resources to get out, they'll likely die. In any case, even if they do get out, attempts at resting have been ruined.

I could come up with these things all day.


You misunderstand me, instead of sending a party of adventures into the kobold lair, they just set fire to the floor and wait outside.Most of the floor is stone and earth, which is difficult to burn. The floor is only wood in a few areas, not all of which is actually trapped.


Well, a active illusion means it can be found though detect magic.And just because you can see that it's an illusion doesn't mean everything; reverse psychology (a useful and widely regarded strategy in warfare, guerrilla or otherwise) is easy to leverage against people who underestimate you when they think you're a bunch of animalistic, unintelligent savages.

...which seems to be the case with your attitude toward kobolds.

And they'd make mincemeat out of you for it.


And allowing a masterworked tool bonus opens up for allowing the trapfinder a simular bonus, from a 11 feet pole or something like that.Good. You got a +2.


besides that the biggest bonus is from the Aid another option, and unfortunately i cant find clear rules on when you can do it and how many can do it, but when you allow it for the kobolds then the adventure party can also do it on their seach check.Only if they all had trapfinding. You can't Aid Another on a check that you can't attempt in the first place.


All this is of course irrelevent if its a lv 1 summon carrying a bar of lead that triggers the trap.Most of the traps I've mentioned so far use living kobolds to trip them. They should know that there's a party of creatures invading their home; they'd surely cut off any stragglers from the group and neutralize them. But there are hundreds of adult kobolds in the warrens, which means there are plenty left to deal with the remainder of the group, even while the summons is being destroyed.


There was the suggestion about hollowing out the mountain so they could remove the floors at will.

...still taking about the lair where you could remove the floor at will.In certain rooms built for such, yes.


I might require a reflex save if the kobolds could manage to release the marbles without anyone finding out before its to late, but that alone would be a bit tricky.All the better to knock you on your arse, my dear.


Yes as in goodbye kobolds because i would start a slow genocide until they give me the thing back.Which is just the sort of thing the kobolds are wanting to prevent with all this trapbuilding.


What are you talking about, the moment you are inside it you would get a save, not to mention that anyone with a few ranks in spellcraft would figure out its a illusion, and even with a +4 bonus the party proberly got a better will save than the kobolds.Sometimes, entering a space covered in complete and utter darkness that you can't pierce from outside would be a bad thing. Who's to say that jumping into an illusion blindly (in this case, literally), wouldn't be lethal? Maybe that 2 ft wide pathway the kobolds ran across was wooden, and was removed as soon as the illusion went up? Or maybe it was an illusion too. You'd run blindly into the darkness, and...oops, you just fell 200 ft through poisoned razorwire onto spikes set in a pool of acid-breathing piranha. Maybe just knowing it's an illusion isn't enough; trying to 'interact' with the illusion can be as dangerous as (or more than) leaving it be.

They can also turn your detect magic back on you. A few castings of silent image at random to make any given room look exactly as it already does will render your detect magic near-useless. And even if you can see that the darkness is illusory, that doesn't mean you can see through it until you actually enter it (and who knows what it might be?).

Kobolds are tricky SoBs.

Underestimate them at your peril.


Well, i dont belive the marble idea is practical, and it doesnt matter how many test you do, there is allways flaws you dont find before it enters practical use.Need I remind you that if the DM says that it works, that it does? It's the DM designing the encounter, after all.

I'd be seriously surprised if your character managed to get halfway through a session with these things. You're discounting the threat due to the threat a single kobold poses when in an open room, with a spear. These things would slaughter you.


Delayed actions also means they both have to come first in the initiative, meaning a singel arrow can ruin the strategy.Um...that's exactly what delaying is for, dude. I said that already.


And as for the murder holes, i have allready stated that smart people dont stand under those.And that matters, why? They can have murder-holes in the ceilings, and in the walls, and in the floors. You have to pass under the ones in the ceiling, or over the ones in the floors, and the ones in the walls let them lob anything they want at you, out to the limits of where they can reach.


I disagree about that survival of the fittest would mean its the smartest kobolds that survive, arguments could be made for every stat but str there, fx then a kobold with higher wis is less likely to die while testing a homemade trap.Sure, kobolds with higher stats in other areas would be more likely to survive a direct threat, but kobolds value ingenuity and the ability to protect the warren more than anything else, so the kobolds with absurdly high physical stats (for a kobold) would be used to shield those who can protect the entire warren via traps (which are considerably more effective than any single kobold). Thus, the trapbuilders would be shielded using the more physically adept kobolds, thereby ensuring the survival of the entire tribe.

Also, design nonlethal traps that can be tested without fear of harm, that you can test yourself. Design lethal traps that can be tested on summonses. Or with test-dummies. Or traps that you can test while you're on the other side of a wall.


In this situation the excessive number of tunnels would work against the kobolds, and in the end they might be able to get rid of their skeletal invaders, though it would not be hard since to start with most kobolds are using picks.So, they get screwed if they have one tunnel, or a few tunnels, or a lot of tunnels. Just because you maintain that they are.

They'd destroy you. They really would.


and if they all end locked up in their lair then its still a victory.And you'd be dead or driven off. Yes, it is a victory.


Well thats the issue, i dont belive thats what they can do, and even if it were, then as i have said before it would not be the kobolds thats the challenge any longer, but the traps.Which is the entire point. The kobolds can't take the invaders in a stand-up-knock-down-drag-out fight, so they use traps that are considerably deadlier than they are.

You've played Magic the Gathering? Think of the kobolds like they're the summoner; no real offense, no real defense. If they stand toe-to-toe with their adversaries (those with decks of cards that are ready, willing, and able to destroy them) with no cards up their sleeves, they're toast. But by using traps (the deck of cards) as a buffer, they can defend themselves all out of proportion to what they're otherwise capable of.

Just because you haven't had a DM inflict kobolds on you properly doesn't mean they can't do what the mechanics (and the fluff) say they can.

You can argue against common sense and the rules as they're written all you like; doesn't change that this is what kobolds are supposed to be.

Would you be arguing against it so vociferously if you were going up against a bunch of humans?

[PanNarrans]

I'm planning on running these critters for a oneshot soon. I've got lizardman skinks models to represent them, and I hope they'll challenge an eighth level party of variable optimisation.

If not, I'll fall back on their blue dragon overlord and elite merchant bodyguard caste.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm planning on running these critters for a oneshot soon. I've got lizardman skinks models to represent them, and I hope they'll challenge an eighth level party of variable optimisation.

If not, I'll fall back on their blue dragon overlord and elite merchant bodyguard caste.Good deal. Let us know how it turns out.

If you need any ideas on traps you can use to kill challenge your players, give us the specifics, and we...or at least I...will try to help. :smallamused: