tuckers kobolds

[rokar4life]

so, my DM just used this kind of thing against us(still kobolds), twice, and we got wiped both times(I feel, rightly as ive been told, that im good with tactics), so how the hell do you beat them. We tried alot of different things, but they're just too fast what with the tunnels and everything.

[Drogorn]

Cloudkill.

[Darwin]

1. Go buy a Decanter of Endless Water
2. Flood dungeon
3. ???!
4. Profit!

[Tengu_temp]

Party composition and levels?

[Eldariel]

What kind of party, what level, what manner of dungeon and what kinds of tactics are the Kobolds exactly using? Either way, spellcasters are the key. Other than that, readied actions. But more information is required. Modifying the terrain is always the key.

[quick_comment]

Earthquake, or transmute rock to mud.

Alternatively, ethereal jaunt.

[rokar4life]

no arcane =(

8th level cleric(fire, healing)
9th level barbarian
9th level bard
8th level ranger(bow)

not much magic gear, i have a ring of jumping edit: and a +2 magic axe that makes a flashbang to which we are immune 1/ per day, cleric has some kind of magical mace, ranger has a 2/ per day invisibility ring
EDIT:that's all i can remember for them, they have more

we got got by a pit trap, and lots of fire, and hidden murderholes

[rokar4life]

whats a readied action?

[Assassin89]

no arcane =(

8th level cleric(fire, healing)
9th level barbarian
9th level bard
8th level ranger(bow)

not much magic gear, i have a ring of jumping, cleric has some kind of magical mace, ranger has a 2/ per day invisibility ring

we got got by a pit trap, and lots of fire, and hidden murderholes

I thought Bards were arcane. When in doubt kill the kolbolds with fire.

[rokar4life]

they are, but its his first campaign, and he choose spells poorly, so no good arcane

[Flickerdart]

Entropic Shield and Wind Wall should help against ranged attacks. Obscuring Mist and similar stealth spells could provide useful cover, use Detect Evil and similar to see enemies through walls. Trip traps with Summon Monsters or find them with the Find Traps spell. Enthrall could distract the Kobolds long enough for you to pass the murderholes. Resist Energy blocks out fire. Water Breathing to be used in case of flooding, which Control Water removes. Freedom of Movement will assist in case of entanglement.

The Bard's Feather Fall spell will help against pit traps, Deep Slumber, Scare, Hypnotism and Sleep take out a bunch of Kobolds, and Grease sends them tumbling if they rush you. Ventriloquism and Silent Image are, of course, so handy in many cases. Pyrotechnics can be used to create smoke for cover. If you're really mean, a Lesser Geas can compel one of the Kobolds to guide you through the cave.

[herrhauptmann]

What are tuckers kobolds?

[Flickerdart]

What are tuckers kobolds?
Take the pathetic Kobold, a lowly creature of minuscule CR. Now make there be a lot of them. Now, give them tactics: traps triggered only when heavy people step on them, corridors only small Kobolds can crawl through, etc. In these non-traditional encounters, parties who should walk all over Kobolds get slaughtered instead.

[Tiki Snakes]

Correct response to tuckerian Kobolds? Diplomacy checks, sue for peace, solve the problems without bloodshed, or possibly just throw yourselves on their mercy and beg like children.

Hope this helps. :)

[shadzar]

What are tuckers kobolds?

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com

[Chronos]

All of the people suggesting specific spells or magic items are missing the point. If you think that particular spells are the solution to Tucker's Kobolds, they'll just beat you again. The two things that are most important against Tucker's Kobolds are first, don't panic, and second, go slow and methodical. Tucker's party, when they first started getting hit by the kobolds, responded by running forward, further into the dungeon, right into more organized mayhem. The correct response is to make sure your retreat is clear at all times, take as much time as you need to keep it clear, and when you do advance, do so slowly enough that you can make sure you're doing it safely.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

To expand on what Chrono's saying, this is what the party did, and why it went wrong.

The first time they met Tucker's Kobolds, they were caught by surprise. It doesn't sound like they had faced anything like this before. Though I don't know for certain, I can probably say that they died really confused.

The second time, they panicked, and dug themselves deeper into their own hole, They should not have run once the hall was on fire and the door shut. They should have tried to open the door, and clear the hallway, taking advantage of any battlefield control they might have, because you need to fight fire with fire. And all Tucker's Kobolds are is ultimate battlefield control.

Really, though, if you need to fight them, the best thing to do is take away their battlefield control any way you can. In this case, don't fight them in the dungeon. Someone mentioned flooding the dungeon. That might work the first time, but I could bet you that if they ever come across them again, they'll have a drainage system set up.

[RavKal]

Get a heavy round boulder and roll it down hallways ahead of you...spring traps, crush kobolds....

[shadzar]

Get a heavy round boulder and roll it down hallways ahead of you...spring traps, crush kobolds....

Look out behind you now that you have blocked off the forward passage. :smallwink:

[BobVosh]

Did you have to kill the kobolds, or just get by? Invent in 4 tower shields (regular mundane ones are fine.) 5ft step your way through with total cover.

[Kornaki]

Really, though, if you need to fight them, the best thing to do is take away their battlefield control any way you can. In this case, don't fight them in the dungeon. Someone mentioned flooding the dungeon. That might work the first time, but I could bet you that if they ever come across them again, they'll have a drainage system set up.

Yeah, but once you kill them, they're, y'know... dead. That makes it hard to make a drainage system

[RavKal]

Look out behind you now that you have blocked off the forward passage. :smallwink:

never said a large boulder, lol.

[BobVosh]

Yeah, but once you kill them, they're, y'know... dead. That makes it hard to make a drainage system

Lol, be even funnier if the next time you come through its Kobolds with some aquatic amphibious template. All you have done is increased thier advantage with the flooding.

[sebsmith]

Just curious, what is the Kobolds' counter to Cloudkill?

[shadzar]

Did you have to kill the kobolds, or just get by? Invent in 4 tower shields (regular mundane ones are fine.) 5ft step your way through with total cover.

Imagine going through a literal meat grinder. No matter which way you go you are buggered.

Tucker's kobolds were like cockroaches crawling out of the woodwork everywhere.

Not doable in 4th because minions die after a single hit, but maybe still can be done by someone wanting to find the right minions and throw out the encounter budget to have about 1000 of the buggers around every turn with any unimaginable trap waiting along with them.


Just curious, what is the Kobolds' counter to Cloudkill?

Narrow corridors and blowing the cloud back upon the party?

[Reverent-One]

Not doable in 4th because minions die after a single hit, but maybe still can be done by someone wanting to find the right minions and throw out the encounter budget to have about 1000 of the buggers around every turn with any unimaginable trap waiting along with them.

I don't know about it not being possible in 4e because of the minion rules, in the link you put up, they mention that the Koblods had 1-4hp, barely better than a minion if at all, and they were a 6th level party, so they were probably effectively one hit kills anyway, even in 3.5.

[shadzar]

I don't know about it not being possible in 4e because of the minion rules, in the link you put up, they mention that the Koblods had 1-4hp, barely better than a minion if at all, and they were a 6th level party, so they were probably effectively one hit kills anyway, even in 3.5.

But 4th minions hit harder than your average previous edition kobolds right? I don't have a 4th MM to even know if kobolds are minions or brute or whatever.

[sebsmith]

Narrow corridors and blowing the cloud back upon the party?


Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.

Figure out the cloud’s new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.

Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.

Assuming we walk up to the entrance to the cave, cast it as deep into the cave as we can see, and wait the minute per level it lasts before entering the Kobold cave; what can the Kobolds reasonably do to keep this from just slaughtering them?

[shadzar]

Assuming we walk up to the entrance to the cave, cast it as deep into the cave as we can see, and wait the minute per level it lasts before entering the Kobold cave; what can the Kobolds reasonably do to keep this from just slaughtering them?

Close a door until it dissipates. Also if they are coming from ledges on the sides of the downward hallways it really wouldn't bother them too much as the cloud rolls along the ground safely away from them at a higher vantage point.

[Godskook]

Am I the only one who thought of something like this?:

This is my 10ft pole. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My pole is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my pole is useless. Without my pole, I am useless. I must spring the traps with my pole. I must use it more dilligently than my enemy uses his trap, for he is trying to kill me. I must trip the trap with my pole before I am caught in it. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my pole and myself are protectors of my party, we are the masters of my enemy's traps, we are teh saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy traps, but peace. Amen.

[Kornaki]

Then they drop a pot of boiling oil onto you, and you slip and fall into the pit of tar that they light on fire. Your pole gets pwnd

[lisiecki]

so, my DM just used this kind of thing against us(still kobolds), twice, and we got wiped both times(I feel, rightly as ive been told, that im good with tactics), so how the hell do you beat them. We tried alot of different things, but they're just too fast what with the tunnels and everything.

you cant "beat" Tuckers Kobalds.
The whole point is that there is 1,000,000 of them, and they slowly wear you down, forcing you to expend your reseorces until you die alone in the dungeon.
The only way to "beat" them, is to avoid the,

[Sstoopidtallkid]

you cant "beat" Tuckers Kobalds.
The whole point is that there is 1,000,000 of them, and they slowly wear you down, forcing you to expend your reseorces until you die alone in the dungeon.
The only way to "beat" them, is to avoid them.This is partly true. Part of the fluff of Kobolds in RotD is that their population(after wars with every sentient good race, members lost defending a dragon, and cave-ins), is constantly expanding, constantly cramped. Even if you win once, they exist to be martyred. Dying for the tribe is a great honor. So after you wipe out one warren, necessarily killing every single member old enough to trigger a switch, the instant you leave another tribe is going to send half it's members to reposess the now-empty rooms designed for Kobolds. Except now they'll be fortified more, so as to prevent the new tribe from being wiped like the old one was. And they'll probably send a few hunters after you, just because you deserve it. They breed like rats and they fight to the death and they live in warrens that would make Arcade say 'woah, maybe that's a bit of overkill'. You don't win, you just delay death or escape.

[Ravens_cry]

The lesson of Tuckers Kobolds is that of the intelligent enemy. While the same exact strategies can not be applied to medium creatures, small creatures can run where medium can only squeeze, and squeeze where medium can't go at all, the basic lesson is the same. One would need different strategies for 'Tuckers' orcs, but the point is that the creatures are using strategies and not simply waiting in the 10 x 10 room guarding a chest. Raining down alchemists fire through murder holes is still a good strategy. Arrow slits are another. Pit traps with spikes (poisoned mayhap?) are another, though the occupants have to be more careful as they weigh at least as much as the invaders.Multiple stone dead falls to block hallways into sections are a great way to separate adventurers.

[Seffbasilisk]

Have the barbarian trade his trapsense for trapfinding using Survival instead of Search. Give him an adamantine maul to take out the traps. Tower shield provide total cover, an arrow-slit gives LoS to call down a Flame Strike. Proceed with caution, when in doubt do not pursue them, as they will lead you into traps. Strike when the advantage is yours, do not let them choose a terrain they're familiar with/they've prepared...

[Doresain]

This is my 10ft pole. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My pole is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my pole is useless. Without my pole, I am useless. I must spring the traps with my pole. I must use it more dilligently than my enemy uses his trap, for he is trying to kill me. I must trip the trap with my pole before I am caught in it. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my pole and myself are protectors of my party, we are the masters of my enemy's traps, we are teh saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy traps, but peace. Amen.

did anyone else picture a low-level follower of the party saying this to himself right before the kobolds incinerate him?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Am I the only one who thought of something like this?:

This is my 10ft pole. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My pole is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my pole is useless. Without my pole, I am useless. I must spring the traps with my pole. I must use it more dilligently than my enemy uses his trap, for he is trying to kill me. I must trip the trap with my pole before I am caught in it. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my pole and myself are protectors of my party, we are the masters of my enemy's traps, we are teh saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy traps, but peace. Amen.Keep in mind, Kobolds count as Tiny for the purposes of fitting through tunnels and similar. That means a Kobold warren needs only have tunnels large enough for the average housecat. They can squeeze through areas that leave the party Halfling shaking his head. The only tunnels large enough for medium creatures are the ones they use for supplies and the ones they use for traps. You're not fitting a 10' pole anywhere near there.

[FatR]

If Tucker's kobold are anything more than mildly annoying insects by 9th level in 3.X, you're doing something wrong. Such simple tactics as sending in a wave after wave of summoned creatures (many of which can be completely unkillable to an average kobold mook) and literally scorching everything before you to slag will obliterate them completely, if not immediately. They only can be something resembling an actual threat if the party is forced to make a speed run through their dungeon by plot (and no one has any of the spells that let the party bypass such obstacles automatically, like Gaseous Form or Ethereal Jaunt) or if the party never encountered intelligent opposition before and is hugely overconfident.

[lisiecki]

If Tucker's kobold are anything more than mildly annoying insects by 9th level in 3.X, you're doing something wrong. Such simple tactics as sending in a wave after wave of summoned creatures (many of which can be completely unkillable to an average kobold mook) and literally scorching everything before you to slag will obliterate them completely, if not immediately. They only can be something resembling an actual threat if the party is forced to make a speed run through their dungeon by plot (and no one has any of the spells that let the party bypass such obstacles automatically, like Gaseous Form or Ethereal Jaunt) or if the party never encountered intelligent opposition before and is hugely overconfident.

:O

This may be a AD&D vs 3x point.
But Tuckers Kobolds aren't individual foes, there a plot point.
The entire reason there there, isnt to kill the PCs in one flashy way.
The GM puts them where they need to be, when they need to be there.
The Kobolds pick away at the pcs one hit point here, one hit point there, and prefent them from sleeping. Forcing them to use potions and other expenditure resources.

IF you read the Dragon article, that's the entire point that they exist, to humble PCs by attacking them in a way that the DandD rules cant compensate for.

Sending wave after wave of summoned creatures is a great idea the first day, but what about in the middle of month three, when the party hasn't slept for 80 days?

[Killer Angel]

9th level bard


Cast Tongue, cast Glibness, and talk your way through their lair. :smallcool:

[FatR]

:O

This may be a AD&D vs 3x point.
But Tuckers Kobolds aren't individual foes, there a plot point.
The entire reason there there, isnt to kill the PCs in one flashy way.
The GM puts them where they need to be, when they need to be there.
The Kobolds pick away at the pcs one hit point here, one hit point there, and prefent them from sleeping. Forcing them to use potions and other expenditure resources.

IF you read the Dragon article, that's the entire point that they exist, to humble PCs by attacking them in a way that the DandD rules cant compensate for.
DnD rules can very easily compensate for attrition tactics by 1-HD mooks past about level 9. Both in 3.X and AD&D 2, Rope Trick is your friend. In 3.X you also very literally can retreat to Heaven whenever you need rest by this level. When your resources are fully replenished every 24 hours, but dead kobolds aren't coming back anytime soon, the winner is pre-determined. And if you are after something other than genociding kobolds, any party with a decent arcanist can bypass simply them, either immediately, or on the next day.

[Dagren]

Keep in mind, Kobolds count as Tiny for the purposes of fitting through tunnels and similar.Where does it say that? I've checked the SRD kobold entry and it doesn't mention anything. (I literally just checked that one though, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something)

[derfenrirwolv]

Have the cleric summon lantern arcons. They float, can fit through the murder holes, and do just enough damage to kill kobolds. Their damage reduction also means they're pretty much immune to kobold attack.

power attack and damage doors and barriers

create water on fires

stuff tanglefoot bags into murder holes

[mostlyharmful]

Where does it say that? I've checked the SRD kobold entry and it doesn't mention anything. (I literally just checked that one though, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something)

There's a couple of nice web expansions on the WotC site that brings Kobolds up to a +0 race. Here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) they are (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a)

[Ethdred]

Just curious, what is the Kobolds' counter to Cloudkill?

Cloudkill always sinks - just have a dip (or a U-bend) in the tunnel. For added effect, fill this with water - not only does this stop cloudkill but it can be an interesting obstacle to the party.



Originally Posted by FatR
If Tucker's kobold are anything more than mildly annoying insects by 9th level in 3.X, you're doing something wrong. Such simple tactics as sending in a wave after wave of summoned creatures (many of which can be completely unkillable to an average kobold mook) and literally scorching everything before you to slag will obliterate them completely, if not immediately. They only can be something resembling an actual threat if the party is forced to make a speed run through their dungeon by plot (and no one has any of the spells that let the party bypass such obstacles automatically, like Gaseous Form or Ethereal Jaunt) or if the party never encountered intelligent opposition before and is hugely overconfident.

Oh, I'd so love to Dm you :)

[Avilan the Grey]

My biggest question is why not all kobolds are Tucker's. Seriously. They set up house close to humans, prey on humans (to a small degree literary, but mostly just leftovers, shiny things and unguarded livestock). Yet they are never able to defend themselves when the village send an angry mob or a paid adventure party after them (see "Chainmail bikini" for this point: How awful it must be to be a lowly weak monster who's only way of supporting itself is being too close to comfort to humans (although that was Goblins, it still stands)

If the kobolds were actually played to their INT score, and as reasonable creatures, Tucker's would be one of the certain outcomes (together with actual trade agreements with human villages, etc).

Anyway, I have yet to encounter them in play, although I have met well played intelligent and organized orcs and goblins. At both times, charging into their lairs would have been suicide. The orcs were defeated by smoking them out (literary). The goblins settled for a peaceful (and profitable) agreement.

[Fishy]

I think it would be fun to do a setting where Kobolds were essentially rats. Give them the Slight Build Alternate racial feature, and some ranks in Escape Artist, and they can fit through a space the size of a loose brick. Leave any structure uninhabited for long enough, and it'll just fill up with little lizard guys.

[BobVosh]

I think it would be fun to do a setting where Kobolds were essentially rats. Give them the Slight Build Alternate racial feature, and some ranks in Escape Artist, and they can fit through a space the size of a loose brick. Leave any structure uninhabited for long enough, and it'll just fill up with little lizard guys.

Drop em a size catergory, still keep slight build. Now you have cockroaches.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think it would be fun to do a setting where Kobolds were essentially rats. Give them the Slight Build Alternate racial feature, and some ranks in Escape Artist, and they can fit through a space the size of a loose brick. Leave any structure uninhabited for long enough, and it'll just fill up with little lizard guys.

Exactly. That's how I always pictured them (even when they were yapping dog people (Taco Bell mascots from H*ll)?

Basically they are so successful because they are the über-rats. The ones the players stuble over in dungeons are the failed ones not managing to move in on the rat's territory inside the walls of a castle...

[FatR]

My biggest question is why not all kobolds are Tucker's.
Because those who get sophisticated enough to go Tucker, tend to attract annoyance of adventurers which they cannot possibly survive. Or attention of strong monsters who need capable minions for construction work and subsequently enslave them.

[KjeldorMage]

Alchemists fire, and lost of it.

Muahaahah!

Actually, a character in my last group developed a sonic weapon that only effects those with sharper hearing then a halfling.

That's right, a magically imbued dog whistle of shrieking. The goblins we were facing, and tentacles from the floor all went "arrrrgh!".

He had gotten it for his dire wolf and just thought of using it when the scenario came close to something of "Tucker's" capacity.

[quick_comment]

Another good option is contigation, and then wait for the disease to kill lots of kobolds.

[shadzar]

DnD rules can very easily compensate for attrition tactics by 1-HD mooks past about level 9. Both in 3.X and AD&D 2, Rope Trick is your friend. In 3.X you also very literally can retreat to Heaven whenever you need rest by this level. When your resources are fully replenished every 24 hours, but dead kobolds aren't coming back anytime soon, the winner is pre-determined. And if you are after something other than genociding kobolds, any party with a decent arcanist can bypass simply them, either immediately, or on the next day.

And when you come out of your rope trick area, the first thing you find is you have been surrounded by traps. Sacrificing your rogue may do well to render the traps immediately beneath you useless against the rest of the party, but hope you have a few healing spells to go ahead and wasye at the beginning of the day, and a raise dead or two if you wish to leave the area with all the other traps around.

So want to try to rest that way again tomorrow, and burn the morning up using all your spells again while you are still out of ammunition for your ranged attacks? What few you could make in the close quarters.

[FatR]

And when you come out of your rope trick area, the first thing you find is you have been surrounded by traps.
Considering that (even ignoring problems with actually detecting Rope Trick area), it easily can be a half-mile above ground (we're talking about a 9th-level party after all), that's some badass trapmakers here. What level they are, again? Not that a well-balanced 9-th level party that's concerned about its safety and has time ever needs to walk, as opposed to flying. And not that you cannot fire some area-cleaning spell to demolish any improvised traps first.
And that's just arcane spellcasters' way of resting safely, clerics just can freaking transport the entire party to their god's domain at the end of each adventuring day with Plane Shift.
Point is, by 9-th level, a party with a wizard/cleric in it always can rest safely, unless trapped by a better spellcaster. So harassing tactics by kamikaze mooks have exactly as much chances of working, as PCs are willing to allow.

[Tengu_temp]

I agree with FatR here - at ninth level, Tucker's Kobolds win only if you charge forward or panic instead of playing intelligently, if you have no casters in the group (and even a casterless group can beat them with enough planning), or if your DM uses a lot of fiats ("no, you can't prepare an action to shoot at the kobold once it appears in the murder hole").

[Optimystik]

So want to try to rest that way again tomorrow, and burn the morning up using all your spells again while you are still out of ammunition for your ranged attacks? What few you could make in the close quarters.

Bring a Warlock, or have the casters take reserve feats. What ammunition?

[Another_Poet]

did anyone else picture a low-level follower of the party saying this to himself right before the kobolds incinerate him?

DING DING DING

[shadzar]

The problem is you have to have prepared a rope trick or something like that prior to getting involved, because once you are in without a way to rest, you cannot regain any spells.

[EarFall]

The problem is you have to have prepared a rope trick or something like that prior to getting involved, because once you are in without a way to rest, you cannot regain any spells.

Indeed, and that depends on which edition you are used to playing. The players I have who make arcane casters who played since 1e ALWAYS or almost always have a rope trick, as soon as they get to.. I'd say level 4. The others who started at 3.0 or 3.5? Not so much...

[Nohwl]

what kind of wizard doesn't prepare rope trick? i mean sure, you can leave some spells open and spend an hour to learn them later in the day, but rope trick is a great spell to have prepared. if you don't have the right spells prepared, you can cast it, prepare the right spells, and then kill whatever it is.

[EarFall]

what kind of wizard doesn't prepare rope trick? i mean sure, you can leave some spells open and spend an hour to learn them later in the day, but rope trick is a great spell to have prepared. if you don't have the right spells prepared, you can cast it, prepare the right spells, and then kill whatever it is.

Which seems to be the line of thinking of those members who typically have it prepared. I'm making an arcane caster - I probably won't have it prepared at level 3, but level 4, once I actually have a slot to work with...

[sonofzeal]

Not all groups encourage the 5 minute workday, even when it makes tactical sense. In one of my groups, for example, if the Wizard starts resting after every encounter then the rest of the party will just leave him behind and gather all the lewt/xp for themselves.

[Tengu_temp]

Not all groups encourage the 5 minute workday, even when it makes tactical sense. In one of my groups, for example, if the Wizard starts resting after every encounter then the rest of the party will just leave him behind and gather all the lewt/xp for themselves.

Indeed, the 5 minute workday is simply stupid - not only is it completely unrealistic, as it's simply impossible to fall asleep whenever you want for 8 hours, especially if you just slept 30 minutes ago, but also it rips away any feelings of urgency.

However, even if the group rests normally, Rope Trick is still the best low-level spell to ensure safety while sleeping during a dungeon crawl.

[shadzar]

Indeed, and that depends on which edition you are used to playing. The players I have who make arcane casters who played since 1e ALWAYS or almost always have a rope trick, as soon as they get to.. I'd say level 4. The others who started at 3.0 or 3.5? Not so much...

That depends more on the players than the edition if you have those char-ops type people only concerned with attack based spells.

Again the question would come to if it way ready, and if you have space to do it in the kobolds habitat.

As a wizard I rarely prepared spells for "instant campsite" as there were often other things that could be more useful more often.

This is where TK coems into play, is that you would have to actively prepare for it.

Also anyone seen casting a spell then disappearing would leave it wide ope that they might return from the same location, or just an untrapped area could use more traps in this situation so it wouldn't matter and the players are buggered anyway.


Not all groups encourage the 5 minute workday, even when it makes tactical sense. In one of my groups, for example, if the Wizard starts resting after every encounter then the rest of the party will just leave him behind and gather all the lewt/xp for themselves.

Or just leave him behind because they don't have need of a useless party member.

Quarterstaves and daggers exist for a reason.

[Draco Ignifer]

Rope Trick creates a window which can be seen on this material plane. Detect magic is a level 0 spell. Kobolds love to be sorcerers. If you cast Rope Trick in the dungeon, they will find you, and they will cover the bottom of where you are tricking out with poison-painted bear traps while readying actions to shoot you when you come out. And, of course, this assumes that there isn't a kobold boss who knows dispel magic and can just send you into the bear traps in the middle of the night.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Rope Trick creates a window which can be seen on this material plane. Detect magic is a level 0 spell. Kobolds love to be sorcerers. If you cast Rope Trick in the dungeon, they will find you, and they will cover the bottom of where you are tricking out with poison-painted bear traps while readying actions to shoot you when you come out. And, of course, this assumes that there isn't a kobold boss who knows dispel magic and can just send you into the bear traps in the middle of the night.I agree with all of that except Dispel Magic. The Rope has to be targeted to dispel it, and the Rope got pulled in. It takes Transdimensional Spell to do that.

[Dagren]

Rope Trick would work at level 9, but when you first get it at 3-4, you can't use it for a full night's rest because it only has a 1 hour/level duration, not 2/level. It's not that useful until you can get the duration up a bit (either with caster level or metamagic), IMO. Unless I've missed something as usual.

[Canadian]

Avoid the encounter altogether.

[Zeful]

Just curious, what is the Kobolds' counter to Cloudkill?

Deep pits, which they probably would be using anyway. The pit traps aren't air tight so the couldkill will fall into pits it can't escape from, making their traps, that much more effective.

As for Rope Trick, you've made yourself stationary in a very bad way. They could collapse that section of the cavern on top of your extra-dimensional fort and bury you under tons of rock making it impossible to leave.

[FatR]

Rope Trick creates a window which can be seen on this material plane. Detect magic is a level 0 spell. Kobolds love to be sorcerers. If you cast Rope Trick in the dungeon, they will find you, and they will cover the bottom of where you are tricking out with poison-painted bear traps while readying actions to shoot you when you come out. And, of course, this assumes that there isn't a kobold boss who knows dispel magic and can just send you into the bear traps in the middle of the night.
If a kobold can dispel things, it is not a weakling kobolds against the party anymore, it is party getting their asses kicked by a better caster. He still needs to find where it is, which is untrivial, considering PCs mobility. Still, losing to a better or comparable caster, of course, can happen and does not mean that hordes of mooks actually achieved anything. And, again, by 9th level Rope Trick may well be far from your best trick.

Also note, that workday of a 9th level party frying 1-HD wimps can be pretty long, between reserve feats, looted/old wands that don't really work on proper-CR enemies anymore, and the fact that fighty types do not need to spend their expensive anti-real enemies ammunition to shoot them. Even if the party is not specifically prepared for that.

[Tiki Snakes]

If a kobold can dispel things, it is not a weakling kobolds against the party anymore, it is party getting their asses kicked by a better caster. He still needs to find where it is, which is untrivial, considering PCs mobility. Still, losing to a better or comparable caster, of course, can happen and does not mean that hordes of mooks actually achieved anything. And, again, by 9th level Rope Trick may well be far from your best trick.

Also note, that workday of a 9th level party frying 1-HD wimps can be pretty long, between reserve feats, looted/old wands that don't really work on proper-CR enemies anymore, and the fact that fighty types do not need to spend their expensive anti-real enemies ammunition to shoot them. Even if the party is not specifically prepared for that.

Dispel magic is only a level 3 spell. A kobold sorcerer could easily have it at level 6, and be casting it as a level 7 sorcerer thanks to the Greater Draconic right of passage. That's alongside his free level 1 sorcerer spell abilities from Draconic Rite of Passage and Draconic reservoir, (so he could, for example, cast a free true-strike to go with his free ray of enfeeblement to all but cripple the wizard the moment they drop into the pile of traps?)

Baring in mind, if you are using the book they came from at all, (Races of the Dragon), any kobold with a single feat to spare could be packing a level 1 sorcerer feat, for the mere price of -1 to their hp total. Times several dozen such mooks, and...well, yeah. :)

If the level 9 party is being troubled by the inclusion of a single spellcaster 3 levels below them, they're hardly 'dominating the feeble mooks', are they?

And hell, Detect magic isn't even a level 1 spell. I'm sure even a non RotD tribe could manage to track down such a rope trick, if they know it's around, really, given their canonical, dragon inspired embracing of Sorcery. Add in the fact that they design fiendish traps as practically the cornerstone of their cultural expressions, and you really, really want to be careful on the way out, even if you appear to have survived the night un-dispelled.

[Raum]

To the OP - Not knowing how it played out in your game I'll simply address the original story. In it, Tucker has the kobolds doing three things which confound the PCs: they use the terrain to their advantage, they make extensive use of hit and run ambushes, and they make intelligent use of 'traps'. I put traps in quotes because they were often manually triggered by an observing kobold. If you cede all these advantages to the kobolds you should expect to lose. :-/

To win against those issues you'll need to master or avoid the terrain (size magic, flooding / smoking them out, or causing the tunnels to collapse are all possibilities), react quickly to ambushes with battlefield control (stop the kobold from running so you can kill them - else they'll simply set up another ambush and slowly wear you down), and deal with or block traps / trap activation. Basically you change the fight to your advantage. Whatever you do, don't fight while you are hindered. Back off, regroup, and use your strengths against their weaknesses when possible.

[Tengu_temp]

I just realized something. You know what is a good non-caster class (for a non-caster, of course) and a magic item against Tucker's kobolds?

Monk.

Eversmoking Bottle.

[shadzar]

I just realized something. You know what is a good non-caster class (for a non-caster, of course) and a magic item against Tucker's kobolds?

Monk.

Eversmoking Bottle.

Still could use a decanter of endless water. You can always use one of those for most situations. Unless you have (greater)sustanance as an ability.

[lisiecki]

Oh, I'd so love to Dm you :)

IT really is adorable. Tuckers Kobolds are, when done in the classic way Schrödinger's Kobolds.
They exist in the dungeon only when it is least convineant for the PCs to encounter them, and vanish the moment that the PCs have an advantage.

There not an opponent, but a Deus ex machina to teach the PCs humility

[Kylarra]

I just realized something. You know what is a good non-caster class (for a non-caster, of course) and a magic item against Tucker's kobolds?

Monk.

Eversmoking Bottle.What if the kobolds have partially charged wands?

[Tiki Snakes]

They exist in the dungeon only when it is least convineant for the PCs to encounter them, and vanish the moment that the PCs have an advantage.

That's basically the most obvious and the most beneficial tactics for a tribe of such creatures to assume. It's really only playing them to their intelligence to do so. Also quite within their powers, given their tendancies to basically prepare fanatically for such incursions.

It really should be verging on suicide to ever enter a Kobold Lair unannounced and univited. They are team-working, paranoid, fanatically trap-building xenophobes who know full well that the rest of the world is out to get them, and they can fit into mind bogglingly small spaces. What else would you expect, really?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That's basically the most obvious and the most beneficial tactics for a tribe of such creatures to assume. It's really only playing them to their intelligence to do so. Also quite within their powers, given their tendancies to basically prepare fanatically for such incursions.

It really should be verging on suicide to ever enter a Kobold Lair unannounced and univited. They are team-working, paranoid, fanatically trap-building xenophobes who know full well that the rest of the world is out to get them, and they can fit into mind bogglingly small spaces. What else would you expect, really?And don't forget that their culture is essentially socialism with helping the tribe so ingrained that they can't not work hard, and almost all of them would willingly die for the tribe.

[Yahzi]

A kobold sorcerer could easily have it at level 6, and be casting it as a level 7 sorcerer
A 6th level kobold isn't really a Tucker kobold.


My biggest question is why not all kobolds are Tucker's.
Why does the MM give a 4th level Ogre Barbarian +1 Hide armor and a +1 Ring of Protection, when every PC Barbarian is wearing Mithiril Chain by that point?

Because the monsters exist to be murdered. :smallmad:

This offends me greatly. I play my monsters like they want to live as much as the PCs do.

[Chronos]

If you try to cast a Rope Trick inside the kobold lair, then they'll see you going into it, and therefore know where it is, without needing any magic at all. If you cast your Rope Trick outside the lair, then you have to get out of the lair first. And if you're using Plane Shift for resting, then you need a way to cover a few hundred miles when you come back, to get back to the lair.

[Flickerdart]

If you try to cast a Rope Trick inside the kobold lair, then they'll see you going into it, and therefore know where it is, without needing any magic at all. If you cast your Rope Trick outside the lair, then you have to get out of the lair first. And if you're using Plane Shift for resting, then you need a way to cover a few hundred miles when you come back, to get back to the lair.
Teleport. Scry on the area first, pop out where they don't expect you to be. Maybe Reduce Person beforehand to fit into some crawlspaces.

[Rhiannon87]

So... random question, on the subject of these fine kobolds. I'm planning on running my adventuring party through them much later in the game (when they're about level 9 or so), but with a twist. The kobolds have set up shop in a tower that is built in-world as a test for adventurers. (Durlag's Tower in Forgotten Realms, for the curious.) So lots of adventurers pass through. Lots of adventurers die at the claws of the kobolds. Which means they loot the bodies... bodies which possessed magic items.

I'm giving pretty much all the kobolds masterwork weapons and +1 armor (because with the amount of loot they're hauling in, they can reasonably afford it), and they'll be using some randomly-generated magic items/wands/weapons/armor/etc as well. My question is, do you think that giving them magic items will make them too overpowered? I don't actually want to kill the PCs (at least, not on their first pass... they have to come down the tower at some point), so I am a bit concerned about the kobolds having a wand of summon monster IV and a robe of bones. You know, in addition to the fire and the traps and the sniping and everything.

[Necrus Philius]

A theurgist wizard who uses extend spell on summon swarm.

Its a summon that can chase them down through their own holes and low enough to use several.

[Avilan the Grey]

Because those who get sophisticated enough to go Tucker, tend to attract annoyance of adventurers which they cannot possibly survive. Or attention of strong monsters who need capable minions for construction work and subsequently enslave them.

Unlike normal Kobolds, who attract everyone and their grandmother (in a wheelchair, no less!) and get slaughtered by them, their dogs, their dogs mommies and probably Biff the Understudy, too? Because that is such a better thing to experience than the few experienced adventurers? :smallbiggrin:

What I really want to see is Tucker's Dragons.

[chiasaur11]

Unlike normal Kobolds, who attract everyone and their grandmother (in a wheelchair, no less!) and get slaughtered by them, their dogs, their dogs mommies and probably Biff the Understudy, too?

Don't insult Biff.

Man can be anywhere, do any speech needed of him, and is unkillable. Not a foe you'd want, all I'm saying.

[Avilan the Grey]

Don't insult Biff.

Man can be anywhere, do any speech needed of him, and is unkillable. Not a foe you'd want, all I'm saying.

True, he probably is some form of Deity...

[lisiecki]

What else would you expect, really?

Oh nothing at all. Ive been enjoying and running "Lisiecki's Gobo's" for 20 years.
The point I'm trying to make is that they CAN'T be beaten in a traditonal sence.

There not there to defeat, if the DM puts a party in the situation where they exist, its to teach the party humility.


do you think that giving them magic items will make them too overpowered?

Any

The POINT of tuckers kobolds is that there kobold's with daggers, crossbows, and flaming pitch. As soon as you give them magic items, the cease to be tuckers kobolds, and just become any other fight.

Instead of having 1 powerful koblod per encounter, this is a situation where there are 60, all firing off crossbow bolts and traps. Its not the QUALITY of the attacks that kills you, its the shear quantity.

[Dode]

All this talk about "murder holes", stone shape is what, a second level spell?

[Kylarra]

I'm giving pretty much all the kobolds masterwork weapons and +1 armor (because with the amount of loot they're hauling in, they can reasonably afford it), and they'll be using some randomly-generated magic items/wands/weapons/armor/etc as well. My question is, do you think that giving them magic items will make them too overpowered? I don't actually want to kill the PCs (at least, not on their first pass... they have to come down the tower at some point), so I am a bit concerned about the kobolds having a wand of summon monster IV and a robe of bones. You know, in addition to the fire and the traps and the sniping and everything.
I'll cross post what I wrote in the other thread.


Doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose if they're rated as a "hard" encounter and then played up as tuckers? IIRC the point was that the actual encounter-effects used weren't terribly overpowering, but the tactics are what made or broke the encounter.

Once you beef up the kobolds with anything beyond the basics (or give sufficient numbers to be an ECL-appropriate challenge) it defeats the purpose of Tucker's Kobolds. You simply have "the DM is out to get you".

[BooNL]

I am of mind that tucker's kobolds are the only way to play this game. Seriously, I don't like running into encounters I know I'll win 2 spells in. When I'm fighting enemies (especially in their lairs) I want to have this sense of urgency and danger. Even CR 1/2 creatures can do that.

Frankly, I'm insulted if my DM doesn't at least try to make my life a living hell.

On a related note: I have never prepared or cast rope trick.
Also, I usually play extremely unoptimized characters and go for the fluffy build every time. If I were to encounter true tucker's kobolds not designed to harass but kill, I'd fail, badly...

[Doc Roc]

That depends more on the players than the edition if you have those char-ops type people only concerned with attack based spells.


I'm a char-op person and I take precisely three direct attack spells. I'm not unusual by any means either. Blaster sorcerers are an incredibly rare breed, in fact, and I know of only one really nice canonical build for them.

I'm not trying to be belligerent, but we are gentle souls by and at large who just want to use Evard's tentacles to make you lie still.

Real nice, Real still. ;)

[Kylarra]

we are gentle souls by and at large who just want to use Evard's tentacles to make you lie still.

Real nice, Real still. ;)
That's what the tentacle monsters said in my last BESM game :smalleek:

[Dagren]

Wand of Fireball? IIRC it actually says in the DMG that at mid levels, large gangs of weak enemies stop becoming challenging due in no small part to the wizard's fireball spell. In any situation with large numbers of weak enemies, area of effect spells are your friend, and the fireball in particular is especially nice in this situation being a spread rather than a burst (basically, it can go around corners thereby completely ignoring cover, and would be very effective in the honeycomb type tunnels in a kobold lair).

[Doc Roc]

Depends on if they use blast-hatches or not. And why wouldn't they?

Remember, walls block LoE unless they have a hole of a full 1ft in them, and I do not believe that fireball ignores cover in the fashion you suggest, merely that cover is normally not relevant to aoe blasts.

[Dagren]

Depends on if they use blast-hatches or not. And why wouldn't they?A big part of this is that the kobolds have high mobility, which will be compromised if they have to open and close heavy doors every turn.

Remember, walls block LoE unless they have a hole of a full 1ft in them, and I do not believe that fireball ignores cover in the fashion you suggest, merely that cover is normally not relevant to aoe blasts.The way I read it, as long as you can hit the hole with a ranged touch attack, you can cast through it, nothing about a fixed minimum size mentioned. And I think we're thinking at cross purposes when I mention cover. I know the cover rules are usually only applicable to attack rolls, but what I meant is that if the kobold is hiding behind something that would grant cover (like a corner) he would be unaffected by a burst AoE. Not so with a spread.

[Doc Roc]

So you mean to tell me that if we have the following layout...

xx00xxx
x0k0xxx
x000xtx
xxxxxxx

Where T is the center of the blast, that the kobold would get hit if it's k and the 0s are rock? Because that's what your reading produces in the extreme case... I will go do some research, but I think in this case, you are wrong. The 1-ft rule is from the SRD and isn't necessarily in reference to firing out of, as some spells require only LoS effectively, not LoE.

In any case, even as a RAW Literalist, I accept above all else one rule.
The Rule of Cool, which means that we have motherf***ing tucker's kobolds on the motherf***ing plane. The prime material plane, that is. ;)

[Dagren]

So you mean to tell me that if we have the following layout...

xx00xxx
x0k0xxx
x000xtx
xxxxxxx

Where T is the center of the blast, that the kobold would get hit if it's k and the 0s are rock? Because that's what your reading produces in the extreme case... I will go do some research, but I think in this case, you are wrong. The 1-ft rule is from the SRD and isn't necessarily in reference to firing out of, as some spells require only LoS effectively, not LoE.No, he wouldn't get hit. Fireball is a 20' spread, and to get to him in that situation it would need to go at least twice that. However, all these kobolds would get hit:

xxxxooo
xxxtooo
xooxxxk
xkkxxxx

Which wouldn't happen with a burst. That's all I'm saying. As for ensuring the origin is inside the kobold tunnels and not the hall the players are in, it's weird but I can't find where it says about targeting beyond arrow slits. I'd swear I read that if you can 'hit' the arrow slit's size with a ranged touch attack, you could place your fireball inside rather than outside. (If you miss it impacts on the edge and the origin is just outside. I'm talking about casting into a keep or whatnot, not casting out. That shouldn't be a problem, IMO)

[mostlyharmful]

Yes but now you're blowing 3rd level spells against 1st level commoners and it seems a viable strategy. Sounds like them and their three hundred mates win.

Personally I like the swarm fighting trick, load them up on fight the big folk feats and have 16 pile into the same space as a medium character, each aid another and then drag them down a side corridor into a closeable pit with the only escape hatches being six inches wide and a couple of thousand gallons of water held back with a damn just waiting for him or his mate to start reducing the places structural integrity.:smallamused:

[Dagren]

Yes but now you're blowing 3rd level spells against 1st level commoners and it seems a viable strategy. Sounds like them and their three hundred mates win.So, what, you're supposed to limit yourselves to 1st level spells? Is that what you're saying? Fireball is an AoE spell, they're designed to be used on lots of weak enemies. Last time I checked, kobolds didn't have evasion, so they get toasted even if they make their saves (which they aren't going to do anyway). If you insist on 1st level spells for some asinine reason, just go with sleep. Sure, it only has half the radius, doesn't work around corners, will only get 4 of them max, and only knocks them out for a few minutes instead of killing them, but at least you aren't using high level spells, right?

[BooNL]

How would a levitating, stone skinned character fair against tucker's kobolds? He'd be able to evade most pit-based traps and his stone skin would protect him from about 100pts of damage. That should at least get you a good ways through the caves.

[pingcode20]

How would a levitating, stone skinned character fair against tucker's kobolds? He'd be able to evade most pit-based traps and his stone skin would protect him from about 100pts of damage. That should at least get you a good ways through the caves.

Napalm Bombing with Alchemist's Fire. DR doesn't protect against energy damage. And if you cast Energy Resistance or Protection from Energy, they can switch to Acid Damage with Acid Flasks and/or Kobold Dynamite (Ditherbombs).

Worst comes to worst, they can break out the 'expansion bombs', using alchemist's spark and/or other ones that escape my mind at the moment.

But yes, with Stoneskin and Flight you're looking at a pretty good way of dodging the worst of the automatic traps. Careful you don't get cocky, though - Kobolds do use hand-triggered traps, too. Not like they're wanting for manpower (lizardpower?), after all.

Not really fast enough to avoid plain old ambushing, though. Plus you're burning 250gp worth of diamonds for the DR.

[Dagren]

Not really fast enough to avoid plain old ambushing, though. Plus you're burning 250gp worth of diamonds for the DR.How about protection from arrows instead? It caps at 100 instead of 150, but the DR is the same, it has no material component and it's only a second level slot. Oh, and it lasts hours too. Other than the slightly lower cap, the only weakness is that it only protects against ranged attacks, but crossbows and javelins are ranged anyway, and these kobolds are too smart to get within arms reach. That's the whole point of the scenario, in fact.

[lord_khaine]

oh yeah, Protection from arrows are your friend when you want to teach those annoying kobolds humility.

i have said it before, and i like to repeat it, i think tuckers kobolds are overrated.

[BooNL]

Don't Dragon Shamans have an aura that deals damage every time someone hits them? I can't recall if it's only melee or ranged damage.

If it's ranged as well, something like 2 to 4 damage every time you get hit would wittle down those kobolds a bit as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Tucker's Kobolds will generally construct a very small lair, with many twists and turns. So much in fact that you cannot even aim a Fireball at any point and avoid hitting yourself with it, unless you've already fallen down a pit trap. You'd probably be better off using Burning Hands instead, at least then when it hits a wall the fire doesn't come back 20 feet right over your party.

The only way to truly defeat Tucker's Kobolds is to just leave and seek adventure elsewhere. Otherwise your only real option is Familicide (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html).

[Farlion]

i have said it before, and i like to repeat it, i think tuckers kobolds are overrated.

Tuckers Kobolds are as good as your DM plays them and have as many tricks as your DM can come up with. So essentially, their as good as your DM can make them. Simply saying they're overrated can not account for all the different methods and tactics all the DMs can come up with. If in your game, they are not hard to beat, then your DM just isn't trying enough. :smallcool:

Cheers,
Farlion

[mostlyharmful]

So, what, you're supposed to limit yourselves to 1st level spells? Is that what you're saying? Fireball is an AoE spell, they're designed to be used on lots of weak enemies. Last time I checked, kobolds didn't have evasion, so they get toasted even if they make their saves (which they aren't going to do anyway). If you insist on 1st level spells for some asinine reason, just go with sleep. Sure, it only has half the radius, doesn't work around corners, will only get 4 of them max, and only knocks them out for a few minutes instead of killing them, but at least you aren't using high level spells, right?

Sigh. The point isn't that it wasn't effective, nor that you couldn't or shouldn't do it. The point was that three commoners have just got your mage to expend the resource of a third level spell on a non-encounter as far as the CR tables are concerned. Replicate that a hundred times and you've got Tuckers, they may not kill you but they're far more trouble to fight than they're worth so why not just ignore the little b!"$%^£s and go through or around them to get on with your adventurering. And low and behold the kobold hive gets to keep on existing even though they could/should have been flattened by grand design of being sneaky and annoying.

[pingcode20]

Sigh. The point isn't that it wasn't effective, nor that you couldn't or shouldn't do it. The point was that three commoners have just got your mage to expend the resource of a third level spell on a non-encounter as far as the CR tables are concerned. Replicate that a hundred times and you've got Tuckers, they may not kill you but they're far more trouble to fight than they're worth so why not just ignore the little b!"$%^£s and go through or around them to get on with your adventurering. And low and behold the kobold hive gets to keep on existing even though they could/should have been flattened by grand design of being sneaky and annoying.

Yeah. Basically, that's the whole point ICly of why Tucker's Kobolds do that. It becomes so expensive to wipe them out that most settlements will eventually sue for peace instead of trying to kill them and spending those thousands upon thousands of gp worth of resources on something more useful.

Even if you have access to some 20th level archmage who is willing to help you for free, the simple fact of the matter is that 20th level guy has better things to do than root out some piddly little kobold mine for no good reason.

And not just out of laziness - calling in the 20th level guy is like calling in a Professor of Mathematics to do arithmetic. It's a waste of his time, it's a waste of your time, it's a waste of everybody's time.

Which explains why Tucker's Kobolds are so rarely seen - all the settlements near to colonies of Tucker's Kobolds have already sued for peace with them, and simply have non-interference pacts in place ("Okay, we leave your mine be and stay mum to the adventurers, and you leave us alone. Win-win." Town has nothing to gain by killing them, Kobolds have nothing to gain by attacking).

[snoopy13a]

oh yeah, Protection from arrows are your friend when you want to teach those annoying kobolds humility.

i have said it before, and i like to repeat it, i think tuckers kobolds are overrated.

If you know you're going up against them, then the wizard can prepare fireball, protection from arrows, etc.

However, if the DM usually has the PCs fight one or two high level monsters instead of a large group of low levels, then the wizard may not be prepared. Tucker's kobolds are a sort of changeup. If you know the changeup is coming, it is essentially batting practice. However, if you're expecting a fastball, you can swing and miss.

[lisiecki]

Yes, your fireballs will be great, 8 days in to the hive, once you've expanded your potions, and haven't regained your spells because you haven't slept in 7 days.
On day 1, yes, you'll be killing ALOT of kobolds. The thought exercise that is the scenario exists after you've used all your resources and the kobolds are throwing darts at you for the hell of it

[Chronos]

Sigh. The point isn't that it wasn't effective, nor that you couldn't or shouldn't do it. The point was that three commoners have just got your mage to expend the resource of a third level spell on a non-encounter as far as the CR tables are concerned.Or more likely, one commoner. As soon as you start throwing fireballs around, the kobolds are going to spread out enough that you can't get more than one with an AoE.

[Raum]

How would a levitating, stone skinned character fair against tucker's kobolds? He'd be able to evade most pit-based traps and his stone skin would protect him from about 100pts of damage. That should at least get you a good ways through the caves.The problem isn't getting through the section of tunnels guarded by kobolds, that can be done by anyone willing to ignore the pin pricks and sprint for the other side of their territory. Even in the original story, the only deaths were donkeys and possibly (been too long since I read it) a henchman or two. The PCs didn't die.

Doing so means the kobolds have succeeded of course. They've harassed the invaders until they left. That is their intent after all!

I've never really understood D&D's propensity towards having NPCs fight to the death...every single one. Thankfully that doesn't happen with all GMs, some remember to keep the NPCs' goals in mind... Realistically, few NPCs should have death as their only goal.

[Porthos]

I think some people are missing the point when they start talking about mechanical ways to deal with the specific threat of "Tucker's Kobolds". IMO, The whole point of "Tucker's Koblods" is this:

The NPCs can be just as devious and mean as the PCs can be. That can be lethal, and depending on the circumstances, very unexpected

Really, that's it.

Well, there's another point to Tucker's Kobolds, and that is: Boss Fights are good and well for a group, but if you want to give a group a real challenge, send them up against organized smart opponents, even if individually they are much weaker than the party.

After all, the coda to the Tucker's Kobolds story is this:


If kobolds could do this to a group of PCs from 6th to 12th level, picture what a few orcs and some low level NPCs could do to a 12th-16th level group, or a gang of mid-level NPCs and monsters to groups of up to 20th level. Then give it a try. Sometimes, it's the little thing ”used well” that count.

So for all of the people talking about Rope Tricks, the Tucker Kobolds would just learn from their mistake and develop an contigency the next time an adventuring group comes into their warrens. Mind-Affecting magic? Send out patrols to check on patrols to make sure that they haven't been compromised. Or set up a "three person cell" system in which a group of kobolds only knows about things directly in his area (who then reports to a superior who is higher up the chain of command). That way he can't tell the group about all of defenses of the warrens (beyond a general knowledge type things). And if these things don't work (which they admittedly probably wouldn't since they're just off the top of my head), sit down and think what they could come up with.

Basically have them come up with tactics that heighten their advantages and help discourage yours.

So how do you defeat the Tucker's Kobolds? Simple, reverse the last statement. I.e. come up with tactics that start to neutralize their advantages. Look at the specific example that you find yourself in and strategize accordingly. Look at what is specifcially in your area, what can be used against your opponents, what resources you have, and what type of attacks you've already been getting.

But of you're looking for a general "I Win" card that will always work against these types of encounters, forget it. Coz that's not what this type of encounter is all about. :smallwink:

[shadzar]

^^Pretty much. It is guerrilla warfare like would have been found in the Korean War.

Punji pits, "land mines", any devious type of trap that you could imagine getting caught in in addition to the hit and run tactics and outright war of attrition.

[D_Lord]

Brake out the wall spells, if you can. Destory their home is how to kill them. Once they have to come out they are dead. Lots of batman spells for this. A wizard not even level 15 can if they are smart destory the kobolds lair in one day. They are beatable just go for area destestion instead of monster killing and the rest of the party will clean them up for you.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Fight Tucker's Kobolds like a war. Total war. If they're neutral-ish, leave them well enough alone. But if the tribe is enough of a nuisance that you want to kill them, go all the way. Whenever you go in, your goal is to cause death. If you kill them faster than they breed, you're doing your job. Poison, floods, arrows, spells, explosives... the only thing they can do to you is HP damage - you shouldn't be staying long enough for them to kill you. And HP, through spells, is a quickly renewable resource. If you're killing them, destroying their lair, et cetera; you can win the war of attrition through magic healing.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, I'd have fun tossing down cards/balls with explosive runes, sepia snake sigils, etc down every hole possible.

They wanna play guerrilla warfare, I can play that game too.

[Tiktakkat]

Keep in mind that past a certain point you are not fighting kobolds, no matter how much their tactics are cited, but their traps and equipment. While this is not really acknowledged in AD&D, it is in 3E, where each of those traps has its own CR, and where there are equipment by level guidelines. 40 CR 1/4 kobolds is not as relevant as 40 CR 1-3 traps, or CR 4-5 equipment/treasure levels.

And let us consider traps in particular in 3E. Look at their costs. These kobolds have how many gp worth of traps? That they can freely reset, instantly repair if the PCs damage, and add ad hoc if the PCs decide to rest somewhere vaguely secure? At that rate, I can slaughter any 20th level party with one chicken infested commoner and his 5 trillion gp personal gear and double that trap budget. Somehow I think claiming the commoner is the key to the adventure is seriously missing what is going on.

Likewise saying it is some huge nest of them. Leaving aside game ecology questions as to where they are getting the food they need to survive, at a certain point you need to consider rate of loss replacements. Kobold children do not grow up instantly, and if the PCs are killing 20-50 per day then in 20-50 days every single adult kobold alive at the time of the first incursion is dead. If they mature to full adult capability in the absurd span of 1 year, you have at best one-sixth of the young now mature adults. Did they have 6,000 children sitting around?

As for tactics, as suggested, once you know what they are, tactics should be absurdly evil. Among other simple things:
Tower shields, as mentioned.
Fog, fog, and more fog. Add a 50% miss chance to every attack the kobolds make.
Adamantine lockpick. That is, an adamantine weapon, and just cut through anything that is in the way of what you want to do. Cut through the bar and the door, excavate around a murder hole, and carve those traps out.
Illusions. Never mind invisibility, cut right to the heart of the matter. Silent Image fogs, darkness, and walls. Sure, one or two kobolds will make the save once they manage to "interact" with it. They just get to die first. Your own party memebers will easily make the saves, especially with their +4 bonus for knowing what is going on. Let the little buggers try to figure out what is happening when they cannot see anything. How did you manage to create a tunnel of solid stone through hundreds of feet of dungeon corridor? Well, when a kobold makes a Spellcraft check, they will know. Oh, none of them have Spellcraft? Sucks to be them I guess. And how do the PCs shoot unerringly through the fog cloud that is everywhere? Must be magic!
Reduce Person. That's right, take it to the little beggars on their own level. Give up a bit of weapon damage, and slink along the same undersized tunnels the kobolds are using, and see how they like it.
A bridge not too far. This is tactics, and comes down to what I alluded to above. Unless the DM is getting ridiculous, there are a finite number of kobolds. Unless you are on a time dependent quest, simply do not try to kill all of them at once. Kill enough above their replacement rate to exterminate the little beggars with minimal cost to yourselves, and attack on that basis. Clear one or two rooms and stop. Destroy or heavily modify anything that can be used against you, especially traps. Stone shape murder holes out of existence. Adamantine lockpick door frames to rubble.
Above all, remember that it is first and foremost an ego trip. They are kobolds. Using a CR 1/4 critter against PCs 6th level and higher is one thing and one thing only, an attempt to prove something, and that something is almost always that the DM can whup the players with the most underpowered monster available. Keep that in mind, refuse to get flustered (as mentioned), and just focus on killing the no-xp generating gits until the DM gets tired of trying to prove he is the baddest kobold wrangler around and gets back to the real adventure.

[Stormthorn]

1. Go buy a Decanter of Endless Water
2. Flood dungeon
3. ???!
4. Profit!

Yes. If the monsters are too tough for your party kill them without entering the dungeon.

[Grifthin]

I ran my party through Tuckers Kobolds (with a coupla updates) for 2 sessions. My only big modification was to make the entire dungeon a wild magic zone. Other than that the 4 hit point kobolds with their Traps/pits/holes/trickery beat the ever loving crap out of the party. The have much much more respect now and are almost paranoid of the various encounters now.

[lord_khaine]

Yes, your fireballs will be great, 8 days in to the hive, once you've expanded your potions, and haven't regained your spells because you haven't slept in 7 days.
On day 1, yes, you'll be killing ALOT of kobolds. The thought exercise that is the scenario exists after you've used all your resources and the kobolds are throwing darts at you for the hell of it

If a bunch of kobolds without class level can keep the wizard from regaining spells, then he doesnt deserve to call himself a wizard.


I ran my party through Tuckers Kobolds (with a coupla updates) for 2 sessions. My only big modification was to make the entire dungeon a wild magic zone. Other than that the 4 hit point kobolds with their Traps/pits/holes/trickery beat the ever loving crap out of the party. The have much much more respect now and are almost paranoid of the various encounters now.

In that case its more unreliable magic combined with a awfull lot of traps they should fear.

Also, i just though of a new way to make life harder for the kobolds, Animate dead and create undead.
Create a bunch of skeleton/zombie rats/cats and let them lose in the tunnels, and createt a couple of ghoul kobolds if you have the level for it, that should keep the kobolds busy for a while.

[icefractal]

I think that once people start taking the kobolds seriously, preparing anti-kobold strategies and coming in with all guns blazing and paranoia-mode on - then the kobolds have done their job.

Tucker's kobolds aren't supposed to be some omnipotent undefeatable force, they're just supposed to be inordinately difficult for kobolds, and inflict some damage on overconfident PCs. Once high-level PCs start treating them as a legitimate threat and bring their full resources to bear, it's time for the kobolds to retreat.

Sometimes people try to make them actually an unbeatable force, giving them incredibly effective deathtraps, loads of wands and scrolls, and enough high-level sorcerer kobolds to handle anything the party throw at them. But to me that's missing the point - they're just another high-level enemy then, and no more impressive to defeat the PCs with than a horde of Balors.

[Sliver]

Aww thanks all! I was thinking about what I should put my new party against..

[Foryn Gilnith]

Once high-level PCs start treating them as a legitimate threat and bring their full resources to bear, it's time for the kobolds to retreat.

How far can they run? The goal of Tucker's Kobolds, I thought, was homeland security. Defend their race against upstart adventurers. If they move from mere defending to being annoying enough to inspire genocidal hatred in adventurers, their role begins to fail.

[Otodetu]

but what about in the middle of month three, when the party hasn't slept for 80 days?

Rope. Trick.

If they are martial kobolts of low level, a level 5 spellcaster with rope trick and extend spell is all you will ever need to be a ever present threat that can rest if needed.

You will attack them and hide in the rope trick when in need of rest, you put up the rope trick somewhere the kobolts don't know about, or somewhere they can't reach.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Or, you know, retreat to beautiful civilization, probably to the village that's lauding you for eliminating those vicious baby-stealing kobolds, and enjoy good food and drink before swooping in again on phantom steeds to continue the kobold genocide.

[Killer Angel]

Rope. Trick.

If they are martial kobolts of low level, a level 5 spellcaster with rope trick and extend spell is all you will ever need to be a ever present threat that can rest if needed.


When your group needs to spend time and resources to eliminate critters with CR 1/4, it means that Tucker's kobolds are difficult to bypass.
(in truth, I love the concept ot TK, but I wonder in which way the terrain augments effectively their CR.)


Or, you know, retreat to beautiful civilization, probably to the village that's lauding you for eliminating those vicious baby-stealing kobolds, and enjoy good food and drink before swooping in again on phantom steeds to continue the kobold genocide.

Again, you're spending time and resources. But if you're working for the villagers, at this point the TK are no more a bunch of pests along the way, but the main adventure, meaning that the PCs' group is low level, so it's perfectly fine.

[Xey42]

Anybody else think it's amusing that people keep suggesting things to breeze through Tucker's Warren, completely assured of their superiority to the encounter? Especially when the entire point of the encounter is based off the idea of dealing with (and successfully I might add) people that think like that to teach them a bit of fear and humility for the D&D universe the GM is creating.

*Note that this is in no way a comment on whether they could actually do it, though after reading the tread, most of the suggestions made appear to have counters that these kobold's could manage.

[Tiki Snakes]

Old thread is old.
Kobolds still rock, though. :)
http://www.baelgun.us/Portals/0/Gallery/Album/4/kobolds.jpg

[Heliomance]

Am I the only one who thought of something like this?:

This is my 10ft pole. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My pole is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my pole is useless. Without my pole, I am useless. I must spring the traps with my pole. I must use it more dilligently than my enemy uses his trap, for he is trying to kill me. I must trip the trap with my pole before I am caught in it. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my pole and myself are protectors of my party, we are the masters of my enemy's traps, we are teh saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy traps, but peace. Amen.

Never use a 10-ft pole. Use an 11-ft pole. Too many things have a 10-ft blast radius.

[Radiun]

To those suggesting Rope Tricks not have the repercussion of Kobolds trapping the area immediately below the Rope Trick as it is hard to spot, why wouldn't the Kobolds be suspicious of the party disappearing into thin air after climbing up a rope, especially by the 8th day? Or alternatively, how would you hide the casting of the spell and the team scrambling up the rope from Kobold eyes?

[SpikeFightwicky]

To those suggesting Rope Tricks not have the repercussion of Kobolds trapping the area immediately below the Rope Trick as it is hard to spot, why wouldn't the Kobolds be suspicious of the party disappearing into thin air after climbing up a rope, especially by the 8th day? Or alternatively, how would you hide the casting of the spell and the team scrambling up the rope from Kobold eyes?

Yeah, but those traps would be what... CR 1? I bet a party that can cast rope trick can easily deal with anything the kobolds mash together, plus they're eventually going to run out of building material, assuming the PCs wreck whatever materials are being used for traps whenever possible. I don't have rope trick's wording, but can someone look outside at all during the duration? By looking out ever so often you can see what the 'bolds are up to.

I find this kind of thing silly as a 'teach the players humility' exercise. You're the DM... This seems to me the same as taking any monster in the MM, putting in their ecological version of a trapped up fort knox, and setting the PCs loose. If I ever did this as an exercise in humiliating the PCs (which is the basis of teaching humility), I'd probably get an earful of "Yes, we get it... kobolds can be annoying as ever if you stack the odds heavily in their favor... can we get over it now?"

[lsfreak]

To those suggesting Rope Tricks not have the repercussion of Kobolds trapping the area immediately below the Rope Trick as it is hard to spot, why wouldn't the Kobolds be suspicious of the party disappearing into thin air after climbing up a rope, especially by the 8th day? Or alternatively, how would you hide the casting of the spell and the team scrambling up the rope from Kobold eyes?

You don't bother unless they've got a spellcaster high enough level to actually dispel it (in which case we're no longer dealing with TK). You then use DD/teleport to get away from the trapped-to-all-hell parts, or just buff yourself like crazy before going down so that you don't get slaughtered by all the traps they worked up in the meantime.

Even then, you can hopefully find moments where no kobold is looking and you're able to do it. Did they rope trick? Did they teleport? Did they sphere of invisibility? If the kobolds immediately arrive at rope trick, there's some munchkinry going on from the DM's direction.

EDIT: @SpikeFightwicky
Tucker's kobolds should be taken not as a lesson in humility (at least not by this point in time), but that monsters should be played smart. Too many DM's just don't do this. TKs are an example of monsters played as they should be played rather than as just a bunch of monsters that are really too dumb to live. Invading a kobold lair, a goblin village, or an orc encampment should have consequences beyond "you slaughter a bunch of helpless, low-level NPC's." Traps, ballistas, skirmishers, ambushes - these guys should know how to fight rather than be cannon fodder.

[Bayar]

Kobolds, the race that was tailor made for guerilla warfare :biggrin:

GOD I love the little monstrosities, trapping everything they find, using slight build to huddle all in one 5ft square and aid another on the attack roll, hide in cracks in the walls and sniping people, brushing their teeth with injury poison, taking the draconic rite of passage for an arcane spell of their choice (FIST OF STONE ! +6 STR bonus mother****ers !), hunting and sistematically eliminating the gnomish plague, taking DRAGONWROUGHT and becoming DRAGONS, eating your BABY...

**** the other races. Everybody will now play kobolds. The other races died of spellplague.
No humans with fancy extra feat, Kobolds ! No dwarves because this is not dorf forterss, it is Kobold Camp. No elves because this is a grimdark kobold game. No halflings because this particularly campaign is not tolkienesque, it is Tuckeresque. You want to play a gnome ? Go jump in molten magma.


:biggrin::wink:

[Radiun]

The traps don't have to be mechanical, or even obvious.

Flood the floor with a clear flammable liquid at night, then toast the part with a match.

if they have access to poisonous gases and can direct such gas (a stretch I admit)

Poison the doorknob with the tribe's best stuff and hope they don't wear gloves.

If the party was in a room and seen through murder holes going into the rope trick, barricade the door from the outside, fill the hallway with junk and kobold corpses, and then take cheap shots as the party digs its way through the rubble.

(As an aside, I always limit Teleportation to an "outdoors only" spell. Something akin to Dragon Quest VIII where you hit your head on the ceiling if you try to use it indoors. But I realize that's not everybody's cup of tea.)

[Bayar]

You know, there should be a doorknob trap that when turned to open the door will unveil poisoned adamantine spikes. The bypass is magical, requiring the user to be a kobold.

[Andras]

For the people suggesting Rope Trick, my question is, what's preventing the Kobolds from caving in/flooding the room when your party disappears? If the kobolds are worth anything they'll have very constricted caverns anyway. Besides, the spell specifies that only one person at a time can climb it. Unless your hypothetical wizard is soloing the dungeon, there's a very, very high chance you're going to be seen and your tactic is going to be discovered.

[Radiun]

For the people suggesting Rope Trick, my question is, what's preventing the Kobolds from caving in/flooding the room when your party disappears? If the kobolds are worth anything they'll have very constricted caverns anyway. Besides, the spell specifies that only one person at a time can climb it. Unless your hypothetical wizard is soloing the dungeon, there's a very, very high chance you're going to be seen and your tactic is going to be discovered.

This is the Kobold's home, why destroy it for the adventurers?

As for the water: Water Breathing would cover it nicely, and it would ruin the kobold's home unless they had a drainage system.

[Random832]

This is the Kobold's home, why destroy it for the adventurers?

They couldn't have rooms that are specifically designed to be caved in or flooded with magma? (oops, wrong game)

[Radiun]

They couldn't have rooms that are specifically designed to be caved in or flooded with magma? (oops, wrong game)

Yes, but then we're moving from Kobolds living in part of a dungeon to Kobolds in charge of Boatmurdered

[Zeful]

This is the Kobold's home, why destroy it for the adventurers?

As for the water: Water Breathing would cover it nicely, and it would ruin the kobold's home unless they had a drainage system.

Why would they live in those caverns? Those caverns are where they make their stand against people trying to kill them, deadfalls and flooding would be rather desirable as it would close off their lair from attack by most enemies.

[Milskidasith]

Flooding and destroying the caverns adventurers go through also means that they have no way to leave the cavern... while that may be desirable (why fight when you can have a self sustaining underground fortress with impenetrable traps outside just in case, as my Dwarf Fortress logic goes), but that's no longer the kobolds fighting them, so much as the DM saying "Hey, there are a bunch of kobolds in there that live in a self sustaining society that never leaves and are no threat to society, now go kill a dragon or something."

[sonofzeal]

Rope Trick is a known spell, easy to find if they saw where the rope was or with a Detect Magic. It's also "porous" at the bottom where the entrance is, in any take on the spell I've seen.

So what do Tuckers Kobolds do? They build a fire under it. Smoke out the PCs, and when they toss out their rope it catches on fire too. Sure the PCs can just jump, but jumping from a height into a fire is not something most players will take lightly even if it's only a couple d6 of damage.

[Radiun]

Why would they live in those caverns? Those caverns are where they make their stand against people trying to kill them, deadfalls and flooding would be rather desirable as it would close off their lair from attack by most enemies.


Maybe the denizens further in the cavern protect the kobolds too, or a dragon lives there and the kobolds are there to close to the dragon.

It all depends on the ecology of the dungeon I admit.

[hamlet]

Rope Trick is a known spell, easy to find if they saw where the rope was or with a Detect Magic. It's also "porous" at the bottom where the entrance is, in any take on the spell I've seen.

So what do Tuckers Kobolds do? They build a fire under it. Smoke out the PCs, and when they toss out their rope it catches on fire too. Sure the PCs can just jump, but jumping from a height into a fire is not something most players will take lightly even if it's only a couple d6 of damage.

Also fun to plop a few bear traps underneath the opening. Spiked pit traps. other assorted nastiness.

[Duke of URL]

I agree with those who say the point of the exercise is not to "beat" them by brute force, but to out-think them.

That said, cloudkill (or other good AoE spell) followed up by a Warlock with the dead walk invocation (free-to-make, short-term zombies FTW!) will work wonders. Make the little buggers work for you.

[Radiun]

That said, cloudkill (or other good AoE spell) followed up by a Warlock with the dead walk invocation (free-to-make, short-term zombies FTW!) will work wonders. Make the little buggers work for you.

But the zombies and skeletons won't retain the Slight Build special quality ;-)
...wait, will they, is Slight Build a special ability? *crawls into the fetal position and cries*

[Zeful]

Flooding and destroying the caverns adventurers go through also means that they have no way to leave the cavern... while that may be desirable (why fight when you can have a self sustaining underground fortress with impenetrable traps outside just in case, as my Dwarf Fortress logic goes), but that's no longer the kobolds fighting them, so much as the DM saying "Hey, there are a bunch of kobolds in there that live in a self sustaining society that never leaves and are no threat to society, now go kill a dragon or something."

I never implied that it was self-sustaining or that those caverns were the only way out, just that having caverns that the bigger things move through be as dangerous as possible, including have collapsible ceilings and floodable makes sense.

[lord_khaine]

So what do Tuckers Kobolds do? They build a fire under it. Smoke out the PCs, and when they toss out their rope it catches on fire too. Sure the PCs can just jump, but jumping from a height into a fire is not something most players will take lightly even if it's only a couple d6 of damage.



Also fun to plop a few bear traps underneath the opening. Spiked pit traps. other assorted nastiness.

Well, any Kobold foolish enough to do this would be filled with arrows, remember the party can see whats going on below

[Doug Lampert]

Take the pathetic Kobold, a lowly creature of minuscule CR. Now make there be a lot of them. Now, give them tactics: traps triggered only when heavy people step on them, corridors only small Kobolds can crawl through, etc. In these non-traditional encounters, parties who should walk all over Kobolds get slaughtered instead.
3.x or 4th ed it shouldn't work. The party's spot and listen are simply too high.

The thread is about an 8-9th level group in 3.x, so their scout's listen bonus, with NO magical enhancement and crappy Abilities is +11 or +12. He can hear one kobold talking to another at 220' on a take 10, he beats their pitifull stealth without really trying. He can here one kobold WHISPERING to another behind a closed door and at some distance better than the kobold next to him that he's whispering to. How do the kobolds plan or react to the PCs given this.

(Response: you put in a couple of mid-level kobolds, one of whom casts silence between the party and kobolds, then you ambush the party when they actually enter the silence, but the moment I start adding actually threatening NPC clerics they're no longer Tucker's Kobolds, since the defining characteristic of Tucker's Kobolds is that they're individually no threat at all in the open.)

High level parties can't be surprised by anything the kobolds can do other than traps, and traps that the kobolds can actually build in a reasonable time and on a reasonable budget given that there are rules for trapmaking and they only get a +2 bonus are minor.

And if the trap is not covered by actual kobolds then the traps are worth XP anyway, usually too much XP for the actual threat. Hitting a party with kobold traps is like giving away free candy once they realize that walking into the trap and taking the damage is worth XP since that eliminates and thus "defeats" the threat at the cost of a no component cost level 1 or 2 spell, then retreat and repeat.

If the kobolds try to cover the traps without surprise, then you simply kill the kobolds. You have higher initiative and can one shot any of them, they need a high roll to force you to spend one wand charge, they're carrying gear worth more than one wand charge each. Profit!

Huge amounts of acid and alchemists fire. How? They're level 1 NPC warriors, they don't have the gear allowance, and if they do have huge amounts of such things the party can scry out where and teleport into the storage area, thanks for giving us double our expected wealth by level in gear in a single shot.

Acid vat that they're going to empty on you. Step back, shoot kobold trying to drop acid, thank kobolds for gift of valuable acid. All these sorts of tactics require that the kobolds have surprise or initiative.

Clear odorless flamable liquid on the floor? What's the CR on that trap, how much did it cost, and I'm using it on the white dragon next week since it's a consumable these kobolds have in large quantities. In fact I'm using EXACTLY this fluid next week since my Rogue can spot the trap and avoid the trigger and we have no trouble killing a kobold trying to set it off.

The party has vastly superior mobility. You have intelligence on EVERYTHING they are doing within 100' or more of anyplace within range of you. You have the ability to kill them at will within LOS, and if they get really lucky they force you to expend one charge on your magic stick of CLW or LV.


And when you come out of your rope trick area, the first thing you find is you have been surrounded by traps.

This sort of claim is CONSTANT from people who say Tucker's Kobolds work in 3.x. And it's total crap. They're level 1 creatures with a +2 bonus to Craft (Trap), and there are rules for the price of traps, the materials required, and the time required. They CAN'T do that.

There are plenty of things they CAN do to a rope-trick, I'm not that fond of rope trick (especially since the party HAS teleport), but building traps under the rope trick in less than 8 hours isn't one of them.

My characters are better trap builders than kobolds of that level can dream of being, a mid level caster can create traps they CAN'T deal with other than by detonating them, and detonating the trap will ALWAYS kill at least one kobold.

If traps are that easy and effective in your world then the PCs trap the exits and the kobolds starve, then they steal the now unguarded and appearently endless store of trap-making supplies.

Tuckers kobolds work in 3.x because the DM fiats the traps in violation of what the kobolds should be able to manage (and ignores the CR of those traps), fiats their equipment to unreasonable levels, and fiats them to have perfect communication and coordination without the need to actually talk to each other or see the adventurers to know where they are. And given that these Kobolds have all these neet toys they'll have adventurers teleporting in to kill half a dozen of them and take their toys ALL THE TIME.

100 GP worth of consumables like alchemist's fire and acid flasks for blitzing one Kobold patrol in a single round? Hey, that's a good downtime activity! We'll avoid them during the main adventure and use a month or two of downtime to loot the crap out of them until either they're all dead or they agree to half their stuff and be our personal trapmakers forever to get us to go away. (And note that they can't lie to our Sense Motive either.)

[Radiun]

Clear odorless flamable liquid on the floor? What's the CR on that trap, how much did it cost, and I'm using it on the white dragon next week since it's a consumable these kobolds have in large quantities. In fact I'm using EXACTLY this fluid next week since my Rogue can spot the trap and avoid the trigger and we have no trouble killing a kobold trying to set it off.

I never said it was odorless, only clear so it would be plausible to spray on the floor at night without notice.

Could just be vodka

[Bayar]

Kobolds collapsing their caverns over adventurers is feasable. They are miners so they can always dig another tunnel out or something. Plus, their diet consist of anything from cereals to meat to twigs to rocks. Yes, they can digest rocks. It is in Races of the Dragon. Go check it out.

[lord_khaine]

But the zombies and skeletons won't retain the Slight Build special quality ;-)
...wait, will they, is Slight Build a special ability? *crawls into the fetal position and cries*

Even better, skeleton/zombie rats are easy to make, and enough to put a level 1 kobold out of its misery.

[Akal Saris]

I think people who post about how kobolds actually suck in later editions are completely missing the point, which is that a good DM should play monsters as intelligent and prepared rather than throwing CR 18 balls of claw/claw/bites at the PCs.

I could do a 'tucker's kobolds' style dungeon' with ogre magi, for example, or doppelgangers, or vampires, or draconians. The whole idea is using terrain, numbers, and most importantly tactics against the players, and to a lesser degree it's about taking a weak monster and surprising the PCs by making it a threat. It's a style of game design that in some ways is already built into 4E modules, but wasn't the general idea back in 2E, when most encounters were basic tank and spanks, so to speak.

[lsfreak]

@Doug Lampert:
You underestimate a kobold's trap-making powers.

1st level kobold trapsmith (expert)
13int
4 rank Craft (trapmaking)
Skill Focus (Craft (trapmaking))
Masterwork Tools for trapmaking
2 apprentice
Right there, he can reliably make a DC20 craft check, enough that he'll never waste the materials (lowest outcome: 16) on CR1-3 traps and can reliably make traps up to CR6. With 5 apprentices/helpers, they can regularly make CR10 traps.

And of course, this is ignoring things like having higher stats than normal or being above level 1. The vast majority of TK's are going to be 1st level experts or sorcerers, but even the smallest den will have an average of a 7th level trapsmith according to RotD.

[Doug Lampert]

@Doug Lampert:
You underestimate a kobold's trap-making powers.

1st level kobold trapsmith (expert)
13int
4 rank Craft (trapmaking)
Skill Focus (Craft (trapmaking))
Masterwork Tools for trapmaking
2 apprentice
Right there, he can reliably make a DC20 craft check, enough that he'll never waste the materials (lowest outcome: 16) on CR1-3 traps and can reliably make traps up to CR6. With 5 apprentices/helpers, they can regularly make CR10 traps.

And of course, this is ignoring things like having higher stats than normal or being above level 1. The vast majority of TK's are going to be 1st level experts or sorcerers, but even the smallest den will have an average of a 7th level trapsmith according to RotD.
And this takes how long and how many materials. And Races of the Dragon is niether core nor the source for Kobolds, nor is a level 7 character a Tucker's Kobold.

I can make them threatening with nothing higher than level 3, but I need the occassional level 3 and realistically the threat is the occasional level 3 with a massive circumstance bonus from all the help.

Level 1 kobold warriors are the standard, and they suck. You HAVE to upgrade to make Tucker's kobolds work.

[Heliomance]

Actually, Races of the Dragon is the source for kobolds. They are briefly mentioned in Core, but gone into in incredible detail in RotD.

[Zeful]

And this takes how long and how many materials. And Races of the Dragon is niether core nor the source for Kobolds, nor is a level 7 character a Tucker's Kobold.

I can make them threatening with nothing higher than level 3, but I need the occassional level 3 and realistically the threat is the occasional level 3 with a massive circumstance bonus from all the help.

Level 1 kobold warriors are the standard, and they suck. You HAVE to upgrade to make Tucker's kobolds work.

That depends, are you using the city builder from the DMG and applying them to a 400 member kobold tribe? Or are you using the organization listing for a warband?

[Tiki Snakes]

Rules are for Players, and the DM can use whatever damn non-core sources he likes, thank you very much.

Hell, he can even...

Make it up.

[Zeful]

Dun-dun-dunnn

[sonofzeal]

Tucker Kobold solution to Cloudkill - install downward ventilation traps. As a bonus, these can double as pit traps. Also, Kobolds can significantly outrun a Cloudkill unless it's tossed right on top of them (in which case a Fireball is usually more effective).

This might still kill a few, but it won't hardly depopulate a warren unless it's fairly poorly designed. You'd have to count on kobolds not having any pit traps, and that's rarely a safe bet.


Well, any Kobold foolish enough to do this would be filled with arrows, remember the party can see whats going on below
You can toss in the wood from the side, it's not that hard. Or advance under cover of Tower Shields, and have snipers ready to ventilate any mage who pokes out to cast a spell. Not a perfect strategy, but you can make the party work for their rest, and if they're getting the better of you then you can pull back away from the Rope Trick for a bit and try later, keep harassing them until they run out of countermeasures.

[Dr Bwaa]

Simple cloudkill solution: there are ALREADY pit traps! You don't have to have special "downwards ventilation," the cloud will quickly fall into a trap and sit there until it dissipates. It'll probably kill a few kobolds, but so what? There are a ton of them for a reason.

Cloudkill solution #2: Gust of Wind. Seriously. It's only a second-level spell, and it dissipates Cloudkill in one round. A 3rd-level sorcerer will not be hard to find in the event a cloudkill is somehow headed down a no-pit-traps corridor.

The correct solution was posted way earlier in the thread, and seems to have been ignored. Just be slow and methodical. Wipe them out, Stone Shape their side passages shut; advance slowly and carefully and you'll be fine. Gaseous Form is your friend, as they almost certainly can't fight you, and you have full mobility through their lair.

Tucker's Kobolds are great fun to run, and an awesome challenge. The trick is allowing yourself (as the DM) to play all monsters this way (I think Chronos (maybe someone else?) said this already).

[Raum]

Who cast 'Raise Thread' on this anyway?

Frankly, most people misunderstand Tucker's Kobolds. It wasn't about killing PCs - certainly not in the original story. It was about thinking outside the box and using terrain, mobility, and tactics. Given tunnels built for them, the kobolds have the advantages in terrain and tactical mobility. Sadly, most groups will cede them the advantage in tactics as well...just look through many of the 'they're easy' comments for examples. :smallamused: One other mistake seems common, at least in this thread, the original Tucker's Kobolds were prior to 3.x - AD&D if I remember correctly though I'd have to check the dates to be certain.

One last comment to those thinking traps are the best solution to Rope Trick. Think outside the box! Just collapse that section of tunnel... :smallwink:

[Tiktakkat]

Level 1 kobold warriors are the standard, and they suck. You HAVE to upgrade to make Tucker's kobolds work.

In which case, as I said before, they are not really kobolds, Tucker's or otherwise.
They are a bunch of traps with kobolds resetting them.
Even the attacks by the kobolds are functionally traps. They have a lousy attack value, a possible automatic reset (the kobold does not get blown away), that can be relocated in certain circumstances (again, the kobold does not get blown away).
But if you start tagging levels on them, they get the hit points and such that make them indistinguishable from orcs, or hoboglins, or gnolls, or bugbears, or ogres, or whatever, with the exception that they are small sized. At which point it proves nothing in using kobolds as the base monster in the first place, as they are not the 1st level warriors that are supposed to be so capable if played "right".

[Fendalus]

The thread is about an 8-9th level group in 3.x, so their scout's listen bonus, with NO magical enhancement and crappy Abilities is +11 or +12. He can hear one kobold talking to another at 220' on a take 10, he beats their pitifull stealth without really trying. He can here one kobold WHISPERING to another behind a closed door and at some distance better than the kobold next to him that he's whispering to. How do the kobolds plan or react to the PCs given this.

Uh, just wanted to point out that this apparently assumes that there are no stone walls, and the resulting +15 to listen through them, in a kobold lair. For a 220' length of (apparently empty) space. When the kobolds are politely talking at normal volume instead of whispering like they would be when under attack by adventurers. Somehow I doubt that all those circumstances will happen at once for you. More likely, you have to beat a +30 DC for listening in to them. Good luck getting that at 9th level.

As for the Rope Trick, only thing I can think of is either collapse the room (better to lose a room than lose the entire lair) or line up kobolds around the edge of the room with a readied action to shoot anyone who comes down the rope with a bunch of crossbow bolts. Not the best solutions, but those are the only things I can think of right now.

*Edit* forgot the +5 Listen DC for being distracted, which would make that even worse.

[Lycanthromancer]

3.x or 4th ed it shouldn't work. The party's spot and listen are simply too high.

The thread is about an 8-9th level group in 3.x, so their scout's listen bonus, with NO magical enhancement and crappy Abilities is +11 or +12. He can hear one kobold talking to another at 220' on a take 10, he beats their pitifull stealth without really trying. He can here one kobold WHISPERING to another behind a closed door and at some distance better than the kobold next to him that he's whispering to. How do the kobolds plan or react to the PCs given this.

(Response: you put in a couple of mid-level kobolds, one of whom casts silence between the party and kobolds, then you ambush the party when they actually enter the silence, but the moment I start adding actually threatening NPC clerics they're no longer Tucker's Kobolds, since the defining characteristic of Tucker's Kobolds is that they're individually no threat at all in the open.)

High level parties can't be surprised by anything the kobolds can do other than traps, and traps that the kobolds can actually build in a reasonable time and on a reasonable budget given that there are rules for trapmaking and they only get a +2 bonus are minor.

And if the trap is not covered by actual kobolds then the traps are worth XP anyway, usually too much XP for the actual threat. Hitting a party with kobold traps is like giving away free candy once they realize that walking into the trap and taking the damage is worth XP since that eliminates and thus "defeats" the threat at the cost of a no component cost level 1 or 2 spell, then retreat and repeat.

If the kobolds try to cover the traps without surprise, then you simply kill the kobolds. You have higher initiative and can one shot any of them, they need a high roll to force you to spend one wand charge, they're carrying gear worth more than one wand charge each. Profit!

Huge amounts of acid and alchemists fire. How? They're level 1 NPC warriors, they don't have the gear allowance, and if they do have huge amounts of such things the party can scry out where and teleport into the storage area, thanks for giving us double our expected wealth by level in gear in a single shot.

Acid vat that they're going to empty on you. Step back, shoot kobold trying to drop acid, thank kobolds for gift of valuable acid. All these sorts of tactics require that the kobolds have surprise or initiative.

Clear odorless flamable liquid on the floor? What's the CR on that trap, how much did it cost, and I'm using it on the white dragon next week since it's a consumable these kobolds have in large quantities. In fact I'm using EXACTLY this fluid next week since my Rogue can spot the trap and avoid the trigger and we have no trouble killing a kobold trying to set it off.

The party has vastly superior mobility. You have intelligence on EVERYTHING they are doing within 100' or more of anyplace within range of you. You have the ability to kill them at will within LOS, and if they get really lucky they force you to expend one charge on your magic stick of CLW or LV.



This sort of claim is CONSTANT from people who say Tucker's Kobolds work in 3.x. And it's total crap. They're level 1 creatures with a +2 bonus to Craft (Trap), and there are rules for the price of traps, the materials required, and the time required. They CAN'T do that.

There are plenty of things they CAN do to a rope-trick, I'm not that fond of rope trick (especially since the party HAS teleport), but building traps under the rope trick in less than 8 hours isn't one of them.

My characters are better trap builders than kobolds of that level can dream of being, a mid level caster can create traps they CAN'T deal with other than by detonating them, and detonating the trap will ALWAYS kill at least one kobold.

If traps are that easy and effective in your world then the PCs trap the exits and the kobolds starve, then they steal the now unguarded and appearently endless store of trap-making supplies.

Tuckers kobolds work in 3.x because the DM fiats the traps in violation of what the kobolds should be able to manage (and ignores the CR of those traps), fiats their equipment to unreasonable levels, and fiats them to have perfect communication and coordination without the need to actually talk to each other or see the adventurers to know where they are. And given that these Kobolds have all these neet toys they'll have adventurers teleporting in to kill half a dozen of them and take their toys ALL THE TIME.

100 GP worth of consumables like alchemist's fire and acid flasks for blitzing one Kobold patrol in a single round? Hey, that's a good downtime activity! We'll avoid them during the main adventure and use a month or two of downtime to loot the crap out of them until either they're all dead or they agree to half their stuff and be our personal trapmakers forever to get us to go away. (And note that they can't lie to our Sense Motive either.)

Oh ye of little imagination. A warren full of hundreds of unclassed kobolds with a few 1st and 3rd level experts and a dozen-and-a-half 1st level sorcerers can make life a living hell for even mid-level adventuring parties.

Make the warren vertical; a few hundred feet high. Make several 15' wide shafts that plummet all the way to the bottom, with (sleep poisoned) steel razor-wire crisscrossing them and either spikes, or acid, or even plain piranha-infested six-inch-high water at the bottom. There are a few veneer-thin floors in the way (enough for a kobold to sprint across, but definitely not enough to stop a plummeting PC), which will allow the kobolds to draw trespassers into falling the whole way down. Any edges that could be grabbed to stop one's descent should be sharpened to slice up grasping fingers, coating in poison, set with precariously-perched breakaway weights, or all of the above (to punish attempts at preventing impending death). A few of the sorcerers in the tunnels that riddle the walls should be set to counterspell any feather fall castings. Lead lining the walls could potentially prevent teleportation (very much useful for keeping the threat level high). It's a trap that would be very simple to construct (mostly you have to worry about the initial tunneling, which is more hard work than anything), and you've got a reasonably lethal trap nigh-guaranteed to kill at least one party member.

A few side-rooms inlaid next to the main thoroughfare (ie, Death Trap Alley) should be specially-trapped from the get-go (but with no murder holes in the walls or ceiling, to inspire confidence), suspended over pits filled with poisonous spikes and swarms of monstrous vipers/spiders/scorpions. The floorboards aren't nailed down; instead, they slide into place through the tunneled-out sections in the walls, with good enough grips that they can pulled into the walls, baring the pits whenever the kobolds want to remove them. The kobold sorcerers should save their cantrips for detect magic, and can scan the side rooms for odd magical phenomena a couple of times per day. Any suspected rope tricks (which are commonly-known adventurer tactics) should be met with a casting of silent image (to simulate the room exactly as it is, under the potential rope trick), and a casting of ghost sound or create sound (played as loud as possible, overtly to disturb the PCs' rest, but covertly to cover the sounds of the kobolds' workings during the night). While the silent image lasts, the kobolds barricade the door, slide a tarp over the floorboards, wedge it into place, then remove the floorboards. When the PCs awaken the next morning, all they see is a tarp over the floor, and will likely dismiss it after they make their respective Knowledge/Search/Spot checks. When they try to climb down the rope, the tarp will give way, dumping whoever into the poison-spiked-swarms below. Anyone else who climbs out of the rope trick will have to find some other way to escape. Meanwhile, kobolds are shooting their bows out of their little murder-holes...UNDER the floors.

More rooms should have ceilings with boards. The boards aren't wedged into walls; instead, they're held in place with simple lynch-pins. On top of the boards are a few thousand pounds of rocks and debris, all of which has been tossed in by the kobolds. An acidic cantrip or two (from inside the wall) should destroy the lynch-pins, which causes all the debris to squash anyone inside, and makes rope tricks potentially inescapable.

There should be a place early in Death Trap Alley with a downward-sloping 10' wide corridor, with a 20' long hole, a 2' wide strip in the middle where it's safe to run crossing it; the strip slopes a bit to either side, but not enough to ruin normal footing. A few sorcerers hide in the ceiling, keeping watch through a murder hole. As the PCs are chasing the kobolds, and after the kobolds cross over the hole, the kobolds slam a portcullis down behind the PCs, then release bags of marbles to cover the hallway (which roll downhill, carrying unlucky PCs to their doom down the hole). Any PCs that manage to not trip and fall into the hole have to Balance their way across the gap, which is made considerably more difficult by grease spells and a silent images or two that simulate complete blackness across the chasm. Meanwhile, the kobolds they WERE chasing are firing blindly at them, hoping for a few good hits...which then escape into bolt-holes as soon as the PCs seem to be about to get across.

Dropping jars of brown mold into torches and campfires is a good way both to cause damage, and also to leave human and elven adventurers stranded in the dark (meanwhile, the dark-loving kobolds can see to fire upon them with pitch-soaked fire-arrows just fine). It's easy enough to collect, so long as you stay more than 5' away from it. A cup on a pole is enough to scoop it up, which allows the kobolds to collect it safely.

I could go on.

All this and more from a bunch of CR 1/4 and CR 1 creatures, that can seriously hamper (even kill) even 8th and 9th level characters.

[Akal Saris]

Who cast 'Raise Thread' on this anyway?

Frankly, most people misunderstand Tucker's Kobolds. It wasn't about killing PCs - certainly not in the original story. It was about thinking outside the box and using terrain, mobility, and tactics. Given tunnels built for them, the kobolds have the advantages in terrain and tactical mobility. Sadly, most groups will cede them the advantage in tactics as well...just look through many of the 'they're easy' comments for examples. :smallamused: One other mistake seems common, at least in this thread, the original Tucker's Kobolds were prior to 3.x - AD&D if I remember correctly though I'd have to check the dates to be certain.

One last comment to those thinking traps are the best solution to Rope Trick. Think outside the box! Just collapse that section of tunnel... :smallwink:

Thank you!

[lord_khaine]

Make the warren vertical; a few hundred feet high. Make several 15' wide shafts that plummet all the way to the bottom, with (sleep poisoned) steel razor-wire crisscrossing them and either spikes, or acid, or even plain piranha-infested six-inch-high water at the bottom. There are a few veneer-thin floors in the way (enough for a kobold to sprint across, but definitely not enough to stop a plummeting PC), which will allow the kobolds to draw trespassers into falling the whole way down. Any edges that could be grabbed to stop one's descent should be sharpened to slice up grasping fingers, coating in poison, set with precariously-perched breakaway weights, or all of the above (to punish attempts at preventing impending death). A few of the sorcerers in the tunnels that riddle the walls should be set to counterspell any feather fall castings. Lead lining the walls could potentially prevent teleportation (very much useful for keeping the threat level high). It's a trap that would be very simple to construct (mostly you have to worry about the initial tunneling, which is more hard work than anything), and you've got a reasonably lethal trap nigh-guaranteed to kill at least one party member.


And this would still only do anything against adventures stupid enough to chase the kobolds down.


A few side-rooms inlaid next to the main thoroughfare (ie, Death Trap Alley) should be specially-trapped from the get-go (but with no murder holes in the walls or ceiling, to inspire confidence), suspended over pits filled with poisonous spikes and swarms of monstrous vipers/spiders/scorpions. The floorboards aren't nailed down; instead, they slide into place through the tunneled-out sections in the walls, with good enough grips that they can pulled into the walls, baring the pits whenever the kobolds want to remove them. The kobold sorcerers should save their cantrips for detect magic, and can scan the side rooms for odd magical phenomena a couple of times per day. Any suspected rope tricks (which are commonly-known adventurer tactics) should be met with a casting of silent image (to simulate the room exactly as it is, under the potential rope trick), and a casting of ghost sound or create sound (played as loud as possible, overtly to disturb the PCs' rest, but covertly to cover the sounds of the kobolds' workings during the night). While the silent image lasts, the kobolds barricade the door, slide a tarp over the floorboards, wedge it into place, then remove the floorboards. When the PCs awaken the next morning, all they see is a tarp over the floor, and will likely dismiss it after they make their respective Knowledge/Search/Spot checks. When they try to climb down the rope, the tarp will give way, dumping whoever into the poison-spiked-swarms below. Anyone else who climbs out of the rope trick will have to find some other way to escape. Meanwhile, kobolds are shooting their bows out of their little murder-holes...UNDER the floors.


And this seems to assume the adventures are stupid enough not to keep watch during their rest, or not smart enough simply to go outside and cast ropetrick if they want to sleep.


More rooms should have ceilings with boards. The boards aren't wedged into walls; instead, they're held in place with simple lynch-pins. On top of the boards are a few thousand pounds of rocks and debris, all of which has been tossed in by the kobolds. An acidic cantrip or two (from inside the wall) should destroy the lynch-pins, which causes all the debris to squash anyone inside, and makes rope tricks potentially inescapable.

This should be easely detectet by anyone with skills in either enginering or the art of finding traps.


There should be a place early in Death Trap Alley with a downward-sloping 10' wide corridor, with a 20' long hole, a 2' wide strip in the middle where it's safe to run crossing it; the strip slopes a bit to either side, but not enough to ruin normal footing. A few sorcerers hide in the ceiling, keeping watch through a murder hole. As the PCs are chasing the kobolds, and after the kobolds cross over the hole, the kobolds slam a portcullis down behind the PCs, then release bags of marbles to cover the hallway (which roll downhill, carrying unlucky PCs to their doom down the hole). Any PCs that manage to not trip and fall into the hole have to Balance their way across the gap, which is made considerably more difficult by grease spells and a silent images or two that simulate complete blackness across the chasm. Meanwhile, the kobolds they WERE chasing are firing blindly at them, hoping for a few good hits...which then escape into bolt-holes as soon as the PCs seem to be about to get across.



I cant see what the bags of marbles are going to do, and this gives the adventures a chance of reducing the sorcerer population with a few wellplaced magic missiles.


Dropping jars of brown mold into torches and campfires is a good way both to cause damage, and also to leave human and elven adventurers stranded in the dark (meanwhile, the dark-loving kobolds can see to fire upon them with pitch-soaked fire-arrows just fine). It's easy enough to collect, so long as you stay more than 5' away from it. A cup on a pole is enough to scoop it up, which allows the kobolds to collect it safely.

And it sounds to me like this would force the kobolds dangerously close to the adventures, and not help very much if they are using everburning torches, or light magic.


I could go on.

All this and more from a bunch of CR 1/4 and CR 1 creatures, that can seriously hamper (even kill) even 8th and 9th level characters

It also seems to assume a party of orc barbarians with a int of 8, and wont do much good against my suggestion of a local undead plague.

[hamlet]

Well, any Kobold foolish enough to do this would be filled with arrows, remember the party can see whats going on below

True, but it's easy and cheap enough for the kobolds to grab a sheet of plywood, or better yet, a bit of sheet metal, to cover the opening while they work their nastiness below. Plus, characters shooting arrows down through the hole are not resting, and therefor not gaining HP. Plus, if they do not rest for at least a couple hours, I would not hesitate to hit them with a -1 or -2 fatigue penalty.

PLUS: at least in 2nd edition, the spell only lasts 20 minutes per level, so you'd have to be a pretty high level caster for it to last long enough to regain spells.

[lord_khaine]

True, but it's easy and cheap enough for the kobolds to grab a sheet of plywood, or better yet, a bit of sheet metal, to cover the opening while they work their nastiness below. Plus, characters shooting arrows down through the hole are not resting, and therefor not gaining HP. Plus, if they do not rest for at least a couple hours, I would not hesitate to hit them with a -1 or -2 fatigue penalty.

PLUS: at least in 2nd edition, the spell only lasts 20 minutes per level, so you'd have to be a pretty high level caster for it to last long enough to regain spells.

A couple of things here, first of all in 3.5 the spell last 1 hour per level.

additionaly, the oppening is invisible and placed somewhere up in the air, making the sheet metal solution just about impossible (and not doing anything to stop someone jumping down and killing anything down there)

Its only arcane casters/manifesters that need the 8 hours of rest, the rest of the party is free to take turns killing any kobold foolish enough to try and set up a trap.
(also the -1 or -2 fatigue penalty is a house rule, and not relevant. At the same time its also to small to make any difference in the slaughter of the kobolds)

[hamlet]

A couple of things here, first of all in 3.5 the spell last 1 hour per level.

Well forgive me for not having access to the SRD while in the office.




additionaly, the oppening is invisible and placed somewhere up in the air, making the sheet metal solution just about impossible (and not doing anything to stop someone jumping down and killing anything down there)


Kobolds aren't stupid. They can see precisely where the party dissapeared even if they can't see the opening itself. All they need to do is grab a 10x10 sheet of something and it'll effectively block the view through the window sized opening the party is looking through.




Its only arcane casters/manifesters that need the 8 hours of rest, the rest of the party is free to take turns killing any kobold foolish enough to try and set up a trap.
(also the -1 or -2 fatigue penalty is a house rule, and not relevant. At the same time its also to small to make any difference in the slaughter of the kobolds)

That's true enough, but as I recall, the rules say nothing about sleep at all, so really . . .

Plus, if you aren't playing 3.x, you aren't going to get your 8 hours needed to refresh your casters, and not everybody here is playing 3.x.

[Mike_G]

Wow.

Lots of missing the point here.

Tucker's Kobolds are just an example of how a mechanically weak monster can be a challenge if played to their advantage, rather than just defending the 10' x 10' room or banzai charging the party. The original encounter was 1e AD&D, which does change thing a tiny bit, but the spirit of the thing is the same.

Weak critters should use ambushes, traps, grenade like weapons, small side passages impassible to normal PCs, spider holes and time their attacks when the PC's are near tougher monsters, rather than go all Pickett's Charge at the PC's.

Sure, you can counter any TK tactic. Sure, if you don't mind the "play for six rounds then retreat and sleep," style, you can wear down any number of bad guys. That's not the point.

Tucker's Kobolds are a way to make a challenging encounter from base low level foes, and an encounter that will force the players to think, and to expend resources to get through.

Look at any instance of asymetric warfare. If the poorly armed, ill trained militia try to stand in ranks like Wellington's infantry, they will die. If they go Viet Cong, then the world's most advanced military will experience some frustration.

Sure, you can probably succeed at Kobold Genocide with a mid level party willing to spend the time, effort and gold. More likely, after a decade of unpopular conflict you lose an election and make peace. Oh, er, your party finds a new campaign, and fights monsters who have better loot.

[lord_khaine]

Well forgive me for not having access to the SRD while in the office.


Sorry, could not imagine anyone having blocked access to SRD, though the duration of rope trick have allready been mentioned quite a few times in the thread.


Kobolds aren't stupid. They can see precisely where the party dissapeared even if they can't see the opening itself. All they need to do is grab a 10x10 sheet of something and it'll effectively block the view through the window sized opening the party is looking through.


Unfortunately, the party isnt blind, and when the kobolds can see the party then the party can also see the kobolds, resulting in more dead kobolds.
And do explain how the heck the kobolds are first going to find a 10x10 sheet of anything in their dungeon, and then place it in a way that covers the correct placement of the invisible window the party disapeared though, without getting lethal attention from the party.


That's true enough, but as I recall, the rules say nothing about sleep at all, so really . . .

Plus, if you aren't playing 3.x, you aren't going to get your 8 hours needed to refresh your casters, and not everybody here is playing 3.x.

That sentence did not make any sense.

[Tiki Snakes]

[QUOTE=lord_khaine;7264800
And do explain how the heck the kobolds are first going to find a 10x10 sheet of anything in their dungeon[/QUOTE]

What, Kobolds don't use dust-sheets? No Kobold ever has a Duvet? Seriously, that's not much of a challenge.

[Radiun]

... the party disapeared though, without getting lethal attention from the party.

If the fight and screams of dying Kobolds wakes the spellcasters, they've succeeded.
If the eventual mountain of Kobold corpses seal the room in a macabre tomb, they've succeeded.

For that matter:
Pots-and-Pans Kobolds raising a ruckus.
Mage casts Silent. Works for that night.
The Kobolds get wise and return with hooded lanterns blasting it in the general vicinity of where the rope disappeared.
Mage casts Darkness. Works for that night
The Kobolds get wise after three days that the party can't see or hear them anymore...
Traps traps wonderful traps, loud construction and mining and traps

[hamlet]

Sorry, could not imagine anyone having blocked access to SRD, though the duration of rope trick have allready been mentioned quite a few times in the thread.

I haven't read every post in this thread. Plus, I was, merely, pointing out that getting a night's rest in a rope trick was dependent upon what version of the game you were playing since it doesn't last as long in 2nd edition.




Unfortunately, the party isnt blind, and when the kobolds can see the party then the party can also see the kobolds, resulting in more dead kobolds.
And do explain how the heck the kobolds are first going to find a 10x10 sheet of anything in their dungeon, and then place it in a way that covers the correct placement of the invisible window the party disapeared though, without getting lethal attention from the party.


Well, ok, first: just because the kobolds can see the characters doesn't mean the characters can see the kobolds. Spy holes, hidden archery ports and murder holes. One of the great strengths of Tucker's Kobolds is that they can see the party and the party might not always see them. Heck, chances are the kobolds are killing the party without the party seeing them.

All the kobolds have to do is observe where the party dissapears from, and then throw the plywood over their heads and walk to where they want to go.

As for where they get a sheet of plywood . . . HUH? If you want to go that route, then you have to justify where they get spears, bows and arrows, swords, etc. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the kobolds either have access to or have the skill to manufacture such objects.

[jindra34]

The Dragon Fire adept ends up pounding them on its own, innate dr, limitless flight, reconfigurable energy resistance, and the ever favor infinite breath weapon. And thats only at level 9, at 16th they are now unnoticable without a will save and when you make the save you take 5d6 damage. Now how does the warren endure that?

[Radiun]

The Dragon Fire adept ends up pounding them on its own, innate dr, limitless flight, reconfigurable energy resistance, and the ever favor infinite breath weapon. And thats only at level 9, at 16th they are now unnoticable without a will save and when you make the save you take 5d6 damage. Now how does the warren endure that?

Kobolds don't fight anything draconic.
Even Gnomish Dragonborn are afforded come form of... respect

[Drakyn]

Theoretically I guess they cause a cave-in around you. Then again, this whole thing feels a bit overdone - Kobolds, pointy little ears to the contrary, are not Batman. Batman is the one fictional character that people are willing to tolerate being prepared for absolutely everything at once no matter how implausible. Any kobold that's knowledgable enough about fighting hostile adventurers with magic like cloudkill to make special pits and shafts to drain gases is either going to (A) be higher than the lower levels that are half the point of tucker's kobolds or (B) dead.
It IS fun to figure out ways for a bunch of low-level mooks to murder stuff out of their league given the magical time known as "prep," but, as people keep saying, the other half of the point of tucker's kobolds is that tactical thinking makes encounters much more tricky and interesting. Which has nothing to do with making invincible schrodinger's kobolds. Although it's a pretty neat thought experiment.
Let's take this farther. Someone draw up some plans for Tucker's hobgoblins.

[Lycanthromancer]

And this would still only do anything against adventures stupid enough to chase the kobolds down.Which is fine, since that's part of the point of TKs. They bait you into thinking they're XP-chow, then teach you a short, sharp, painful lesson. You don't do that again. In which case, they're going to trick you into falling for a different trap with the same messy end.

In any case, what if they stole something valuable (like The Campaign MacGuffin) you want to get back? You just gonna leave them to scamper around the corner and get away with a major plot-point?


And this seems to assume the adventures are stupid enough not to keep watch during their rest, or not smart enough simply to go outside and cast ropetrick if they want to sleep.One mistake is all the kobolds need to take the advantage. If the resting place is too far into the cave to easily get out, and if the PCs post a guard, the kobolds barricade the door, figure out which boards the guard is standing on, then quickly remove all the other ones, then try to buck him off into the pit. TKs are all about adaptability, after all. If nothing else, knock the supports out from beneath the floorboards to make the whole thing collapse.


This should be easely detectet by anyone with skills in either enginering or the art of finding traps.All the better to keep the invaders from resting and renewing their resources. Win/win.

[edit] And anyone who enters the room and has obviously found the trap can be taken care of rather quickly...by triggering the trap.


I cant see what the bags of marbles are going to doMarbles slide downhill. The hallway is a slope. Anyone who stumbles on the marbles is gonna follow suit. Y'know, toward the hole.


and this gives the adventures a chance of reducing the sorcerer population with a few wellplaced magic missiles.Can't magic missile someone with total concealment, so the kobold sorcerers are peeking around a corner, which doesn't give other casters the opportunity (of course, they're too busy trying not to die at this point). If a mage happens to get off a magic missile, that's okay. TKs are supposed to be frustrating, not impossible.


And it sounds to me like this would force the kobolds dangerously close to the adventures, and not help very much if they are using everburning torches, or light magic.Dump it from the murderholes in the ceiling. And if they're using magic, just dump the mold in then follow with fiery arrows. Adaptable.


It also seems to assume a party of orc barbarians with a int of 8, and wont do much good against my suggestion of a local undead plague.TKs exploit any mistakes that are made by the party. They take advantage of adventurers underestimating their little CR 1/4 selves, and adapt their tactics to compensate for new strategies presented by the group. You can take out a few kobolds here, a few kobolds there, all the while they're nickel-and-diming you to death (with a few excessively simple and yet lethal traps mixed in to pick off the stragglers).

Really, it's harassment tactics, punctuated by a potential death here or there. It's supposed to be a puzzle to solve using the characters' abilities and smarts, not a "THOG SMASH!" situation. At the very least it'll give the players something different to overcome.

[SpikeFightwicky]

[Snip snip!]It's supposed to be a puzzle to solve using the characters' abilities and smarts, not a "THOG SMASH!" situation. At the very least it'll give the players something different to overcome.

This is where it falls apart... This whole thread has been players thinking of ways to deal with it, followed by increasingly impractical methods to thwart said players (flood the warrens => Kobolds are master plumbers now, or they're now aquatic; cloudkill => kobolds will know how to deal with that spell. Won't work; fireball => kobolds have blast doors; rope trick => traps and infinite trap building materials; etc...) The theory behind it is ok, but it doesn't look like anyone on the DM side in this discussion is willing to say 'you know what, that would work!' - mainly just 'the kobolds totally have 50 contingencies to deal with that'.

Also, lets assume player group dynamics. The players most likely to go 'THOG SMASH' are likely to be keener on a typical dungeon crawl, and will see ANY enemy as potential fodder. If they spend an entire session bogged down and getting ZERO reward for travelling through the labyrinth of "kobolds thought of everything because the DM says so", that's likely to be one disapointed group. Conversely, if the group prefers less rolling in their playing, I haven't read the original TK entry, but it doesn't sound like there's any non-hack'n'slash way around it. It doesn't sound to me like there's going to ever be any kind of player gratification in the TK scenario (mostly frustration). This is from a 3.X perspective, though, and my typical D&D group.

[Radiun]

This is where it falls apart... This whole thread has been players thinking of ways to deal with it, followed by increasingly impractical methods to thwart said players (flood the warrens => Kobolds are master plumbers now, or they're now aquatic; cloudkill => kobolds will know how to deal with that spell. Won't work; fireball => kobolds have blast doors; rope trick => traps and infinite trap building materials; etc...) The theory behind it is ok, but it doesn't look like anyone on the DM side in this discussion is willing to say 'you know what, that would work!' - mainly just 'the kobolds totally have 50 contingencies to deal with that'.

On flooding the warrens: wouldn't one water-tight barricade at a bottle-neck lead to the water pouring out from the hole? Made out of wood or debris and then sealed with some type of wax or expired badger milk? (I'm not an aqua-tech, but seems plausible to me. Before the water builds up enough pressure to knock down the hasty barrier, they could reinforce it. Blocking the kobold-tunnels should be even easier).

Cloudkill could work.

Fireball would kill all exposed Kobolds, but they're already dead anyway.

Rope Trick really isn't the end-all spell when it comes to resting easily in an enemy-infested area. You can get away with it once or thrice, but they will get wise to that trick.

I think the issue is closer to "PC's only have to get through the area" VS "PC's are trapped for an extended period of time" mentality.

[lord_khaine]

And do explain how the heck the kobolds are first going to find a 10x10 sheet of anything in their dungeon

What, Kobolds don't use dust-sheets? No Kobold ever has a Duvet? Seriously, that's not much of a challenge.
[/QUOTE]

Thats not much of a cover either.


If the fight and screams of dying Kobolds wakes the spellcasters, they've succeeded.
If the eventual mountain of Kobold corpses seal the room in a macabre tomb, they've succeeded.

For that matter:
Pots-and-Pans Kobolds raising a ruckus.
Mage casts Silent. Works for that night.
The Kobolds get wise and return with hooded lanterns blasting it in the general vicinity of where the rope disappeared.
Mage casts Darkness. Works for that night
The Kobolds get wise after three days that the party can't see or hear them anymore...
Traps traps wonderful traps, loud construction and mining and traps


Unfortunately you are missing a important point, the mage dont need to sleep, he just have to rest while doing nothing, and unless the kobolds actualy manage to get their hands on the mage then they can make as much noise as they want.


Well, ok, first: just because the kobolds can see the characters doesn't mean the characters can see the kobolds. Spy holes, hidden archery ports and murder holes. One of the great strengths of Tucker's Kobolds is that they can see the party and the party might not always see them. Heck, chances are the kobolds are killing the party without the party seeing them.

All the kobolds have to do is observe where the party dissapears from, and then throw the plywood over their heads and walk to where they want to go.

As for where they get a sheet of plywood . . . HUH? If you want to go that route, then you have to justify where they get spears, bows and arrows, swords, etc. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the kobolds either have access to or have the skill to manufacture such objects.

Actualy, the spot skill means that the party will indeed be able to notice the kobolds that are spying on them.
And you do have to justify where the heck they get plywood from, that stuff is not just something a standard fantasy lumber mill is able to produce.

Even if they had the stuff it would not be enough, i doubt its strong enough to stop a arrow, and in that case then at most it will give the kobolds a 50/50 chance to survive each arrow, or provoke the fighter/cleric/rogue to jump down and slaugther them.


Which is fine, since that's part of the point of TKs. They bait you into thinking they're XP-chow, then teach you a short, sharp, painful lesson. You don't do that again. In which case, they're going to trick you into falling for a different trap with the same messy end.

In any case, what if they stole something valuable (like The Campaign MacGuffin) you want to get back? You just gonna leave them to scamper around the corner and get away with a major plot-point?


Well, in that case its a contest of intellect, to see if the kobolds can outwit the party, where the kobolds are at a severe disadvantage since the party should have much more options for making messy traps for the kobolds.

As for the Guffin, if lv 1 kobolds stole it from you then you really dont deserve to keep it.


One mistake is all the kobolds need to take the advantage. If the resting place is too far into the cave to easily get out, and if the PCs post a guard, the kobolds barricade the door, figure out which boards the guard is standing on, then quickly remove all the other ones, then try to buck him off into the pit. TKs are all about adaptability, after all. If nothing else, knock the supports out from beneath the floorboards to make the whole thing collapse.


The guard can be postet inside the dimensional pocket, and anyone smarter than a Orc barbarian should know better than to sleep under a floor someone can remove.
That aside, what kind of crazy enginering are we talking about where you can remove the floor?


All the better to keep the invaders from resting and renewing their resources. Win/win.

[edit] And anyone who enters the room and has obviously found the trap can be taken care of rather quickly...by triggering the trap.

You cant put crazy traps like that everywhere, and it really should not be nececary to enter the room to spot a crazy construction like that.


Marbles slide downhill. The hallway is a slope. Anyone who stumbles on the marbles is gonna follow suit. Y'know, toward the hole.


Im pretty sure stuff like that only happens in a cartoon, most adventures should be smart enough to just stand stil while the marbles roll by, or drag their feet across the ground so they dont fall on them.


Can't magic missile someone with total concealment, so the kobold sorcerers are peeking around a corner, which doesn't give other casters the opportunity (of course, they're too busy trying not to die at this point). If a mage happens to get off a magic missile, that's okay. TKs are supposed to be frustrating, not impossible.

Well, in most cases people who want to cast something nasty at the party needs LOS, meaning that they open themself up to whatever ranget violence the party can unleash.


Dump it from the murderholes in the ceiling. And if they're using magic, just dump the mold in then follow with fiery arrows. Adaptable
Smart party members dont stand under a murder hole, and are there even rules for non-magical fire arrows?


TKs exploit any mistakes that are made by the party. They take advantage of adventurers underestimating their little CR 1/4 selves, and adapt their tactics to compensate for new strategies presented by the group. You can take out a few kobolds here, a few kobolds there, all the while they're nickel-and-diming you to death (with a few excessively simple and yet lethal traps mixed in to pick off the stragglers).

And i do think this is a mistake, because it play them much higher than their int rating, and gives them a schrodinger level of preperation.

[Bayar]

And i do think this is a mistake, because it play them much higher than their int rating, and gives them a schrodinger level of preperation.

See, this is where you assume Kobolds are stupid. They are not. The standard kobold actually is on par with humans on intelect, wisdom and charisma.

Just because they are not human, are apparently more ugly than humans from a human's point of view, physical weaker and more frail doesnt mean that they are idiots.

If a human might come up with a sneaky plan, then kobolds can come up with the same plan.

Humans can hatch Schrodinger plans. Kobolds can do to.


Im pretty sure stuff like that only happens in a cartoon, most adventures should be smart enough to just stand stil while the marbles roll by, or drag their feet across the ground so they dont fall on them.

marbles are in Arms and Equipment guide (I think). They will probably trip on the marbles unless moving through them. And when you are being shot at in a very tight corridor, and have a very bad feeling that the roof will collapse soon...you wont want to stand still.

[sonofzeal]

This is where it falls apart... This whole thread has been players thinking of ways to deal with it, followed by increasingly impractical methods to thwart said players (flood the warrens => Kobolds are master plumbers now, or they're now aquatic; cloudkill => kobolds will know how to deal with that spell. Won't work; fireball => kobolds have blast doors; rope trick => traps and infinite trap building materials; etc...) The theory behind it is ok, but it doesn't look like anyone on the DM side in this discussion is willing to say 'you know what, that would work!' - mainly just 'the kobolds totally have 50 contingencies to deal with that'.
Flooding - solved by pit traps

Cloudkill - solved by pit traps

Fireball - solved by not bunching up too much, and by an endless stream of replacements

Rope Trick - solved by tossing firewood underneath, followed by an Alchemists Fire to get it started.


.......what, so Kobolds aren't going to have pit traps or firewood? Really?

[Random832]

Flooding - solved by pit traps

Um, unless the pit traps have drains built in (in which case you run into the "master plumbers" part of the claim), no it doesn't. You'll just flood the pit traps before flooding the rest.

[Bayar]

Um, unless the pit traps have drains built in (in which case you run into the "master plumbers" part of the claim), no it doesn't. You'll just flood the pit traps before flooding the rest.

Hmm, wonder how we should go with the blood of adventurers filling our spiked pit traps...it's not like our lairs are multileveled or that we can make elevator shafts or fake dungeons filled with undead and abominations to disguise our own lair, or that we are master trapsmiths, or that indeed we are better smarter or more focused on our work than gnomes (they enjoy mucking about. and they are tinkerers. Thus, kobolds are more advanced than gnomes). We could probably dig a small shaft to let all the blood drain in an underground water pocket or something.


Really, they specialise in Craft (Trapsmithing), Knowledge (Arcana), knowledge (Arhitecture and Engineering), Profession (Miner). The more divine inclined among them might pick up Knowledge (Religion).

You mean to tell me they cant make a simple draining system ?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Why would they? They have more important things to do, like making more traps and getting enough food to survive. A drainage system that can hold off an infinite water stream for any duration of time will take a while to make, and that entails a large opportunity cost.

[Kylarra]

I think this goes back to yes, schrodinger's tucker's kobolds (doubly claimed!) can probably counter any given PC trick given DM fiat or slight modifications to what they are capable of, the question is, why bother at that point? There's a point, and I think we've crossed it a while ago in the theor-ops of this scenario, where it just becomes implausible DM fiat vs the players. The fact that they're kobolds no longer matters because DM fiat says they could plausibly do this, so they have, to counter your strategy.

[Milskidasith]

See, this is where you assume Kobolds are stupid. They are not. The standard kobold actually is on par with humans on intelect, wisdom and charisma.

The average human doesn't have the prepardness of batman. The average human would probably be prepared for a few things, but setting up an entire cave where every room is a gruesome trap with no apparant source of materials for said traps or for kobold food (though they can eat rocks, I suppose) is beyond most people's intellect, even if they wanted to. I mean, seriously, a hundreds of feet verticle tunnel with spiked edges coated in poison? That's nuts.


Just because they are not human, are apparently more ugly than humans from a human's point of view, physical weaker and more frail doesnt mean that they are idiots.

But neither does having pointy eyes make them Batman.

[Zeful]

This is where it falls apart... [...]cloudkill => kobolds will know how to deal with that spell[...]

Pit traps has been part of most modern incarnations of Tuckers Kobolds and for a small, light race, make a lot of sense (especially if their designed to give way when anything heavier steps on them). So Cloudkill doesn't work as well, as it will fall down the pit first. A 10ft pit trap will only delay cloudkill for 1 round anyway, so it will still work pretty well.

As for the water issue: It isn't one. The average human can work out how to intentionally flood their room and drain it with no knowledge of plumbing, kobolds have the same level of intellect as the average human, thus they can figure this out too. Mastery of the Plumbing Job is not necessary for this endeavor. Kobolds wouldn't live close enough to the warrens for drowning to be an issue. Not every tribe would have enough water to do flood their caverns. But not all of them will have as ready access to brown mold either, so it's not going to be "The Impossible DungeonTM" but the point is to be as annoying as possible to get people to leave them alone.

[Radiun]

no apparant source of materials for said traps or for kobold food (though they can eat rocks, I suppose)

Considering Kobolds can literally go down a rabbit-hole...
Is it that hard to presume that MANY of the kobolds links to the outdoors are simply lazily scattered right beneath everyone's eyes

[Tiktakkat]

Flooding - solved by pit traps

Pits have a finite capacity. Eventually they fill up and the water continues to flood the place.


Cloudkill - solved by pit traps

Assuming every kobold can always get behind a pit before just dying at first contact with the poison gas cloud.


Fireball - solved by not bunching up too much, and by an endless stream of replacements

Not bunching up eliminates the threat of 20 kobolds having a line of fire to "guarantee" a hit every round.
An endless stream of replacements just proves they are nothing but a grudge monster.


Rope Trick - solved by tossing firewood underneath, followed by an Alchemists Fire to get it started.

With a pit trap to prevent the decanter of endless water being poked out to extinguish the fire?


.......what, so Kobolds aren't going to have pit traps or firewood? Really?

For every pit they excavate, they are not excavating another room to live in.
Firewood grows really, really, really, poorly underground.
Having an "endless stream of replacements" for either just adds another level of absurdity to it being a grudge monster.

[Mike_G]

Okay, in regards to the whole water/flooding thing.

If there is any way for normal rainwater to get in, and there should be, since Kobolds need to drink, then there needs to be some drainage out. Not into a 10' pit, but out into the wide world.

Most of the world drains to the ocean, guys. Mountains and caverns aren't watertight.

Plumbing, BTW, isn't rocket science. Water flows downhill. Work with that.

Is it unreasonable for a race that can tunnel to have cisterns that catch rainwater on the top of the complex, chutes that carry it down, and sewage tunnels at the bottom to get rid of drainage, waste and dead PC's?

[Radiun]

For every pit they excavate, they are not excavating another room to live in.

They didn't JUST move in you know?
Well, most likely they didn't

[Bayar]

Really, go look at the Example lair in Races of the Dragon. That is only a small part of what kobolds are capable of doing.

Having a fake lair that leads nowhere filled with undead and other monsters, plus a ****load of traps, just so they can test the traps on adventurers ? yeah, it is in the book.

They sharpen the rocks through the sinkhole acces just so it cuts through rope when adventurers decide they wanna have a bit of kobold happy meals.

Hell, they have fake temples inside the complex, filled with traps.


Now with slight build, you could make corridors that would only fit tiny creatures, like cats and stuff. Lets see the medium or small races squeeze through that to kill some kobolds.


Edit @V: Ok, that is not something common and might be their weak point.

[Optimystik]

What can these kobolds do against an incorporeal attacker? Say someone who can summon up some wraiths, or turn incorporeal themselves, float behind the buggers and cast Horrid Wilting?

[Fendalus]

About the only thing the kobolds could do to that would be a bunch of CL1 Magic Missiles or other spells from the sorcerers. Otherwise, it's invincible. Unless the kobolds have holy water for some reason, and even then its a 50% miss chance.

[Reinboom]

I used how I presented the dungeon to the players as a way to eliminate preparation.
The problem with tucker's kobolds now is that, as players, you already know they exist. So, I set out to present them in such a way as to get the players tangled before realization set in. Oh, and remove teleport.

The game I setup was a 'joke'/'serious' dungeon crawl (3.5e). I set up a ridiculously large dungeon with each section reflecting something different, and set up conditions for characters on how they would arrive in the dungeon. the game was to be ran with 5 characters, 4 players and 1 DM PC (named Thuhdee Empasy), but he preferred to just be called "The" for short.) "The", I informed them, was to have necessary levels of utility spells and was just going to be a crutch NPC to rely on, so, they shouldn't worry about things like Teleport.

First, the dungeon was out at sea, an island mountain/dormant volcano (to setup the flowing lava rivers under wooden bridges scene). When the actual game I started, I described to them that, "The", an 11th level Druid/Warblade/Wizard gestalt character had this mission under control. They should just tag along. I explained in detail how he had persistent water breathing available, persistent haste for everyone, and so forth. Everything was cast, the party followed him under water to wear the entrance of the lair was rumored to be when they were suddenly attacked by two massive hydras, which "The" took out in a single round, though accidentally closing the entrance behind them (still underwater). Since they had suitable time left, "The" declared they should rest before actually going in. The townsfolk who sent them on the mission could wait.
After waking up, everyone stepped in, and they arose out of a small pond area inside the dungeon. "The" informed everyone they should just wait here, he could handle this on his own.
He cast another persisted haste on (just) himself since his was about to end, walked towards the first door, when suddenly the floor released under him. He had a contingency for that, however. A series of darts flew at him from murder holes around the room. Then the ceiling opened up and dropped a giant boulder on him. The party got to hear a 'crack' as he was taken down the hole, then his screaming followed by "Oh gods! Why lava?!" as the pit was suddenly filling in on itself. I then declared the party to roll initiative to let the dungeon begin.
Only the entrance trap was so mercilessly elaborate. However, the setup from the dungeon, them having things always on them, as well as being in an enclosed dungeon where endless anything would take themselves out proved to make things much more interesting.

[jindra34]

What can these kobolds do against an incorporeal attacker? Say someone who can summon up some wraiths, or turn incorporeal themselves, float behind the buggers and cast Horrid Wilting?

Ahh yes plan omega, a wightpocalypse. too bad it doesn't enable the area to be freely traveled but hey no more kobolds!

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, in that case its a contest of intellect, to see if the kobolds can outwit the party, where the kobolds are at a severe disadvantage since the party should have much more options for making messy traps for the kobolds.But the kobolds have had (potentially) years of preparation-time, it's their home-turf, and they can set the battlefield to suit them well ahead of time.


As for the Guffin, if lv 1 kobolds stole it from you then you really dont deserve to keep it.True, but accidents do happen.


The guard can be postet inside the dimensional pocket, and anyone smarter than a Orc barbarian should know better than to sleep under a floor someone can remove.
That aside, what kind of crazy enginering are we talking about where you can remove the floor?Uh...the boards aren't nailed down, instead just sliding into the wall? Note that at least one side of the wall is hollow, meaning that the kobolds can just slide them right in when it suits them.

It's nice, simple, and quite effective. A modular koboldian lair!


You cant put crazy traps like that everywhere, and it really should not be nececary to enter the room to spot a crazy construction like that.Note that this is where they're luring adventurers. They love making tricky traps. Why not have a place in their warrens specifically for them to apply their favorite hobbies, and protect their homes at the same time? The kobolds' main living areas are well away from the traps, where most Small or larger creatures would find incredibly difficult (if not frequently impossible) to enter.

The kobolds know they're on the bottom of the food-chain; if that were me, I know I'd do everything I could to work smarter rather than harder (since, being a kobold, I'm not exactly a physical powerhouse). I can sure ply my deviously clever mind to the task, though. It's not like I have anything better to do...


I'm pretty sure stuff like that only happens in a cartoon, most adventures should be smart enough to just stand stil while the marbles roll by, or drag their feet across the ground so they dont fall on them.The PCs are running after the kobolds at this point. The flood of marbles is unexpected, sudden, and right underfoot at the worst possible time. You're telling me you could run down a slope filled with minuscule glass spheres and have no chance at all of falling on your ass?


Well, in most cases people who want to cast something nasty at the party needs LOS, meaning that they open themself up to whatever ranget violence the party can unleash.This is part of the reason why there are so many pieces to the encounter. The sloping tunnel, the open pit, the floor covered in marbles, the illusion of darkness, and the other kobolds firing arrows are a bit distracting. They likely won't even realize the kobolds are there at first, given that they can't see them. When they do sort things out, the kobolds die. The kobolds served their purpose; to make a difficult encounter for higher level PCs out of some CR 1/4 creatures.


Smart party members dont stand under a murder hole, and are there even rules for non-magical fire arrows?Jars filled with mold can be thrown, there are rules for setting things on fire, and an oil-soaked cloth rag can be tied to an arrow rather easily. It might apply a penalty to the attack roll, but attacking a 5' space has a DC of 5 (and mold reacts to sources of flames within 5', meaning they can only really miss completely on a Nat 1). Not exactly out of the range of your average kobold, even with penalties.


And i do think this is a mistake, because it play them much higher than their int rating, and gives them a schrodinger level of preperation.The kobolds' tricks and traps and cunning plans should be about as clever as the cleverest of the kobolds in the warren. If there's a level 4 elderly expert with 22 Int directing things (not completely out of the realm of possibility), I'd expect fiendish cleverness to be afoot, regardless of what intellect levels are present in the entire rest of the warren.

Even without extraordinary Intelligence scores, kobolds spend most of their lives either tunneling, foraging, fighting, or devising and setting up traps of all sorts, from simple to complicated.

And you know? I'm nowhere near Int 22, and I'm capable of coming up with some really nasty, yet extremely simple, traps of my own. All it takes is a dedication to protecting what's yours (which kobolds have), and some cleverness (likewise). If I can come up with these things, you can bet that kobolds, trained in deviousness from hatchling-age, could most certainly do the same.

In any case, the point of the whole affair is that kobolds are capable of such things. Why wouldn't they use them, since the entire world seems hell-bent on wiping them out? If anything, if you're setting out a warren of kobolds that has had time to settle in, and they aren't doing things like this, you're doing it wrong.

[Tiki Snakes]

Here's a thought for the kobold-nay-sayers;

See Dorf Fortress. The sheer fiendish ingenuity attatched to such fortress building endeavors. The malicious, joyfull ingenuity.

Now, instead of the fortress being filled with rowdy, poorly co-operating and (often burning) Dorfs, it is filled with a pseudo-communistic tribe of little dragon-worshipping things that work together with fanatical excellence, are utterly dedicated to the survival of the tribe, think designing horrendous death-traps is somewhere between favoured hobby, divine mandate and the highest form of art, mine compulsively and can happily travel through the average drainpipe.

Seriously now. Claiming that removable floor-boards, pit traps, rudimentary drainage solutions and access to a tarpaulin is somehow outside of their reach? Not buying it. :)

[Frosty]

THe kobolds have had years to prepare. The trick is to complete and utterly destroy their preparations. Get a Cleric with Earth domain or a Druid. Get a scroll or three of Earthquake. Destroy and destabilize, and very possibly set off the traps inside the lair on the kobolds themselves. If you have a cleric high enough level to be able to prepare earthquake, just rinse and repeat the next day.

Otherwise, go in with resources that don't run out. IF your resources replenish, the kobolds can never wear you down. The party needs ways to auto-damage attackers when hit. Needs DR and fast healing. They also need expendable minions. Flight. Ways to see in the dark. And a lot of these things can had without draining party resources.

You really want a Dragon Shaman (or two) for DR and auto-damage, a Warlock or a Wizard with a LOT of reserve feats (both attack ones and Summon Elemental), a DMM cleric that persists Circle of Vigor also helps. A dwarve with lots of ranks in dungeoneering and engineering and architure would help. Give him Adamantine Pick and some stone dragon maneuvers.

As for resting, take turns. Cast Rope Trick, but set guards and make sure that everybody has Rings of Sustenance so you can sleep in shifts and still get everyone rested in 8 hours. Better yet have the Warforged stand guard, if you have one. You can beat TK, but you need to prepare.

[Tiki Snakes]

THe kobolds have had years to prepare. The trick is to complete and utterly destroy their preparations. Get a Cleric with Earth domain or a Druid. Get a scroll or three of Earthquake. Destroy and destabilize, and very possibly set off the traps inside the lair on the kobolds themselves. If you have a cleric high enough level to be able to prepare earthquake, just rinse and repeat the next day.

Otherwise, go in with resources that don't run out. IF your resources replenish, the kobolds can never wear you down. The party needs ways to auto-damage attackers when hit. Needs DR and fast healing. They also need expendable minions. Flight. Ways to see in the dark. And a lot of these things can had without draining party resources.

You really want a Dragon Shaman (or two) for DR and auto-damage, a Warlock or a Wizard with a LOT of reserve feats (both attack ones and Summon Elemental), a DMM cleric that persists Circle of Vigor also helps. A dwarve with lots of ranks in dungeoneering and engineering and architure would help. Give him Adamantine Pick and some stone dragon maneuvers.

As for resting, take turns. Cast Rope Trick, but set guards and make sure that everybody has Rings of Sustenance so you can sleep in shifts and still get everyone rested in 8 hours. Better yet have the Warforged stand guard, if you have one. You can beat TK, but you need to prepare.

It helps if having the entire complex dropped on your head is something you can survive. :)

[Frosty]

THat's why you bring the dwarf engineer along :smallbiggrin: But yes, if you detect any structually weak areas, make sure to have some contingency teleports prepared. The spontaneous caster in the group should know swift etherealness to help others get out if necessary.

If the roof starts collapsing, then everyone should definitely link hands for a DD or teleport. Or at the very least a rope trick. Then Plane Shift out of the rope trick the next day.

But ideally, your Earthquake spell has already collapsed all the unstable parts of the complex.

[Tiki Snakes]

But ideally, your Earthquake spell has already collapsed all the unstable parts of the complex.

Which probably makes up all or most of the detectable portions of the Kobold Lair. Obviously, the true lair would be much deeper and better concealed, accessible only by kobold-pipe, with at least one decent long-range-subterrainian escape route and enough supplies to last a while, given that they can quite happily subsist on dirt

Which, admittedly, would not only appear to cause the complete destruction of the Kobolds, but likely do one of two things; Either keep them busy rebuilding for a couple of years, or drive them from the area anyway. So, really, problem solved, everyone is happy, and very few people have to be brutally murdered in holes full of whirling gears, poisoned spikes, or rivers of lava. :)

[Starbuck_II]

As for the water issue: It isn't one. The average human can work out how to intentionally flood their room and drain it with no knowledge of plumbing, kobolds have the same level of intellect as the average human, thus they can figure this out too. Mastery of the Plumbing Job is not necessary for this endeavor. Kobolds wouldn't live close enough to the warrens for drowning to be an issue. Not every tribe would have enough water to do flood their caverns. But not all of them will have as ready access to brown mold either, so it's not going to be "The Impossible DungeonTM" but the point is to be as annoying as possible to get people to leave them alone.

No, the average modern human can. D&D isn't modern.

[Tiki Snakes]

No, the average modern human can. D&D isn't modern.

Mines Flood. (http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&q=Flooded+mines&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=2dD0Spu8FtrKjAfer7GnDg&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQsQQwAA)

Kobolds live in Mines. Kobolds haven't all drowned to Death.

I suspect that Kobolds might have taken some time to work out how to make their mine not flood.

[Frosty]

Which probably makes up all or most of the detectable portions of the Kobold Lair. Obviously, the true lair would be much deeper and better concealed, accessible only by kobold-pipe, with at least one decent long-range-subterrainian escape route and enough supplies to last a while, given that they can quite happily subsist on dirt

Which, admittedly, would not only appear to cause the complete destruction of the Kobolds, but likely do one of two things; Either keep them busy rebuilding for a couple of years, or drive them from the area anyway. So, really, problem solved, everyone is happy, and very few people have to be brutally murdered in holes full of whirling gears, poisoned spikes, or rivers of lava. :)

Yeah. If they're not out harassing livestock, then it's all good. Truly eradicating would mean a lot more scrying to know the entirety of their home before hand, blocking escape routes, etc. It'll take a while but can be done. THe kobolds have prepared for years, so be prepared to take months to fully eradicate them. Unless you can cast 9th level spells. Then Shapechange into something fast and gaseous and stuff. Or cast Tsunami...inside their lair (you're a full caster. You can find ways to survive it yourself).

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah. If they're not out harassing livestock, then it's all good. Truly eradicating would mean a lot more scrying to know the entirety of their home before hand, blocking escape routes, etc. It'll take a while but can be done. THe kobolds have prepared for years, so be prepared to take months to fully eradicate them. Unless you can cast 9th level spells. Then Shapechange into something fast and gaseous and stuff. Or cast Tsunami...inside their lair (you're a full caster. You can find ways to survive it yourself).

Which brings us back to the real win strategy of Tuckers Kobolds.

Why bother doing all that to route out a few measley Dragon-Droppings who are maybe stealing the occaisional cow, when at the same level a single Bard could turn them into fastly-held-allies, or at least talk them into not messing with the village, much easier.

Kobolds Defences don't really stand much of a chance against the might of well meaning diplomancy.

[Starbuck_II]

Mines Flood. (http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&q=Flooded+mines&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=2dD0Spu8FtrKjAfer7GnDg&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQsQQwAA)

Kobolds live in Mines. Kobolds haven't all drowned to Death.

I suspect that Kobolds might have taken some time to work out how to make their mine not flood.

But mines usually only flood after they are closed.
http://www.hrc.nrcce.wvu.edu/mhyd1.htm

So if the kobolds are not lazy, there wouldn't be flooding. If they are lazy, then they are not Tucker's Kobolds.

[sonofzeal]

Pits have a finite capacity. Eventually they fill up and the water continues to flood the place.
Pits drain. Unless it's specifically lined, or below the water level, stuff will drain out of it. The bigger the shaft, the faster it'll drain.



Assuming every kobold can always get behind a pit before just dying at first contact with the poison gas cloud.
Not every Kobold, but we're talking about a whole colony here, and the "advantage" of Cloudkill is in trying to have it roll through and wipe out the whole warren. I'm saying that's not feasible; you might kill a few, but it's a fifth level spell, and if your fifth level spell is only killing 3-6 kobolds then you're doing something wrong.



Not bunching up eliminates the threat of 20 kobolds having a line of fire to "guarantee" a hit every round.
An endless stream of replacements just proves they are nothing but a grudge monster.
It's attrition either way. You don't need to guarantee a hit every round, and you don't even need 20 kobolds for that. Tuckers Kobolds usually rely heavily on grenade-style weapons, Acid and Alchemists Fire and Molotov Cocktails and poisons and other ranged touch attacks. Unlike magical gear, these become really cost efficient when you can make your own, especially if you assume that they can acquire the raw materials naturally.


With a pit trap to prevent the decanter of endless water being poked out to extinguish the fire?
You know, I've been playing D&D for about eight years now, and I've never actually seen someone with a Decanter of Endless Water on their character sheet. I'm not disputing that it's a good item, or that it deserves to be used, but I wouldn't count on heroes, even fairly well prepared ones, always having it. Even at tenth level, 9000 gp is a heavy chunk of a character's budget, roughly a fifth of their total worth.



For every pit they excavate, they are not excavating another room to live in.
Firewood grows really, really, really, poorly underground.
Having an "endless stream of replacements" for either just adds another level of absurdity to it being a grudge monster.
Kobolds are miners, they've got hundreds of hands and feet in the colony. They're not going to be short on manpower, unlikely to be short on space, and have the time and resources to bring in wood from outside to make cabinates and beds and desks and whatnot, and then throw it on a fire because, hey, losing a desk is worth it to smoke out some filthy genocidal adventurers.

[Tiktakkat]

They didn't JUST move in you know?
Well, most likely they didn't

And?
The humans did not just move in either. I guess all of their farms are protected by mega-traps too, making it impossible for the kobolds to come and eat their babies.
Nor did the orcs. I guess their lair is completely unassailable too.
Although I thought the orcs conquered their lair from the dwarves that had lived there for hundreds of years. How could they have done that? Are dwarves lazier and less competent miners than kobolds?


Pits drain. Unless it's specifically lined, or below the water level, stuff will drain out of it. The bigger the shaft, the faster it'll drain.

Pits do not drain instantly.
Even fast drains can get clogged.
Water tables can become full.


Not every Kobold, but we're talking about a whole colony here, and the "advantage" of Cloudkill is in trying to have it roll through and wipe out the whole warren. I'm saying that's not feasible; you might kill a few, but it's a fifth level spell, and if your fifth level spell is only killing 3-6 kobolds then you're doing something wrong.

That is why I would not bother with cloudkill, but that is another story.
However, the point stands. Since these are supposed to be super-replicating kobolds that can only be stopped by wholesale slaughter, there are going to be areas not protected by endless pits and the like, places like closed dormitories for all those replacement kobolds. You will get more than 3-6 in such an area.


It's attrition either way. You don't need to guarantee a hit every round, and you don't even need 20 kobolds for that. Tuckers Kobolds usually rely heavily on grenade-style weapons, Acid and Alchemists Fire and Molotov Cocktails and poisons and other ranged touch attacks. Unlike magical gear, these become really cost efficient when you can make your own, especially if you assume that they can acquire the raw materials naturally.

You can handwave a lot of such assumptions, but that pretty much makes it clear that the concept of a reasonable challenge has been thrown out the window.
You had noticed that, right?
All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory. Seriously, why not just say the lair is full of spheres of annihilation in grinning mouths, or doorways filled with mist that teleport kobold's safely, but dump other races out naked if you are going to go that far?
And when you do go that far, remember also that even the Tomb of Horrors has been beaten.

And as it happens, the counter for that is a few bolts of silk and the unseen servant spell.
Servant holds up the silk to form a barrier, barrier requires a separate attack to breach.
So much for ranged touch attacks.


You know, I've been playing D&D for about eight years now, and I've never actually seen someone with a Decanter of Endless Water on their character sheet. I'm not disputing that it's a good item, or that it deserves to be used, but I wouldn't count on heroes, even fairly well prepared ones, always having it. Even at tenth level, 9000 gp is a heavy chunk of a character's budget, roughly a fifth of their total worth.

The kobolds have an unlimited budget, the PCs should get one too.


Kobolds are miners, they've got hundreds of hands and feet in the colony. They're not going to be short on manpower, unlikely to be short on space, and have the time and resources to bring in wood from outside to make cabinates and beds and desks and whatnot, and then throw it on a fire because, hey, losing a desk is worth it to smoke out some filthy genocidal adventurers.

No, sorry, all forests have been inhabited by elves for hundreds of years, and are protected by kobold-proof traps. No wood for any filthy lizard wannabes!
And really, if they are spending all their time digging endless pits with super-ultra-drainage systems, and making a 10 year siege suppy of alchemical nasties, then they just might actually be a tad short on lizardpower.

[sonofzeal]

Pits do not drain instantly.
Even fast drains can get clogged.
Water tables can become full.
PCs can't compete with all natural drainage system. You'd need a really cohesive effort to even threaten it, let along make fast enough progress to make it really matter. How many Decanters are we talking about?


That is why I would not bother with cloudkill, but that is another story.
However, the point stands. Since these are supposed to be super-replicating kobolds that can only be stopped by wholesale slaughter, there are going to be areas not protected by endless pits and the like, places like closed dormitories for all those replacement kobolds. You will get more than 3-6 in such an area.
Point, but by that time you've probably won anyway.


You can handwave a lot of such assumptions, but that pretty much makes it clear that the concept of a reasonable challenge has been thrown out the window.
You had noticed that, right?
All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory. Seriously, why not just say the lair is full of spheres of annihilation in grinning mouths, or doorways filled with mist that teleport kobold's safely, but dump other races out naked if you are going to go that far?
And when you do go that far, remember also that even the Tomb of Horrors has been beaten.
It's not really an unreasonable assumption. A molotov cocktail is fairly unreliable, but does 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack and costs 1sp. If you're producing your own oil with appropriate craft skills, you're down to 3cp. If you give the tribe as a whole any reasonable amount of money, they can have an effectively infinite supply of the stuff.


And as it happens, the counter for that is a few bolts of silk and the unseen servant spell.
Servant holds up the silk to form a barrier, barrier requires a separate attack to breach.
So much for ranged touch attacks.
Great. That stops... one attack. Yay.




The kobolds have an unlimited budget, the PCs should get one too.
Hardly unlimited. At 3cp a pop, they're hardly expensive. Give the kobold tribe as a whole a mere 1% of the party's wealth, and you've still got 65,333 molotov cocktails, each of which does an average of 1d6 on a successful ranged touch attack (specifically, 2d6 with a 50% failure rate), plus splash. That's a massive amount of damage, and barring infinite healing tricks that'll be far more than enough to wipe out any set of adventurers I've seen. Heck, you could probably make due with much less than that, especially if they can collect duds later.


No, sorry, all forests have been inhabited by elves for hundreds of years, and are protected by kobold-proof traps. No wood for any filthy lizard wannabes!
And really, if they are spending all their time digging endless pits with super-ultra-drainage systems, and making a 10 year siege suppy of alchemical nasties, then they just might actually be a tad short on lizardpower.
You know, I'm really not sure what your point is supposed to be. What's got your hackles up about this whole thing?

[Frosty]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

[sonofzeal]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)
If genocidal maniacs routinely came into your cities and started slaughtering everybody, you'd hunker down too. That's the whole point - playing kobolds like they're fighting for their lives and the lives of their families and loved ones. They're as smart as we are, know they're likely to be attacked by nigh-unstoppable killing machines, and use every tool at their disposal to try and save themselves and their tribe.

And hey, maybe this is why Kobolds aren't known for their high arts. It's not exactly breaking flavour for them if they aren't.

[Zeful]

All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory.
That's kind of the point. You have 400 kobolds trying to stay alive by any means necessary. "Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival. They will wring any advantage they can when defending their territory. Arrow slits, an endless number of simple traps, difficult terrain, small enclosed spaces, harassment, darkness, poison and spells if they can swing it.

[Milskidasith]

That's kind of the point. You have 400 kobolds trying to stay alive by any means necessary. "Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival. They will wring any advantage they can when defending their territory. Arrow slits, an endless number of simple traps, difficult terrain, small enclosed spaces, harassment, darkness, poison and spells if they can swing it.

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)

[Lycanthromancer]

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)

Kobolds are known for three things (discounting Pun Pun). 1. Being draconic in nature. 2. Sorcery. And 3. Traps.

Traps are what they do. It's the only way (aside from a few low-level sorcerers) they have to defend themselves.

It's also fairly easy to make some really painful yet simple traps by using the stone they're burrowing through anyway, some wooden planks, some wooden stakes, some simple tools, some 1st level spells, and some vermin.

And it's something different, beyond "BIG MONSTER WITH A RAWR" that most encounters seem to consist of.

[sonofzeal]

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)
............so?

I mean, what do you care? It's not a game of DM vs PCs, with the DM cackling madly. "Bwaaahaaaa! I killed you all with kobolds! You suck! Bwahaahahaa!" Yeah, no.

The point is mostly that enemies played intelligently suddenly become far more effective than their "grawr I attack u" kin, and that cunning use of mundane items and setting can make up for weak stats. If you dispute this, hey, great, I'd love to hear your argument.

Otherwise, it's just a question of what level PCs a Kobold Warren is still a threat for. Personally, I think I could make them so that they could handle most groups of up to 10th level, but probably not much beyond there barring stupidity. Maybe I'm wrong, and it maxes out lower at 8th or even 6th, depending on your assumptions. Much depends on the makeup of the party, what sort of traps you use, how much resources you allow the kobolds, how much space and labour you allow them, etc.

Personally, I'd hardly use any conventional traps, I hate tripwires and pressure plates. Pit traps and other terrain hazards are fine, as are things the kobolds themselves can do (like roll heavy rocks at the party). And molotov cocktails. Lots of molotov cocktails.

[Milskidasith]

Kobolds are known for three things (discounting Pun Pun). 1. Being draconic in nature. 2. Sorcery. And 3. Traps.

Traps are what they do. It's the only way (aside from a few low-level sorcerers) they have to defend themselves.

It's also fairly easy to make some really painful yet simple traps by using the stone they're burrowing through anyway, some wooden planks, some wooden stakes, some simple tools, some 1st level spells, and some vermin.

And it's something different, beyond "BIG MONSTER WITH A RAWR" that most encounters seem to consist of.

You are ignoring the point. Traps have listed values for them. Granted, they are extremely high, but it's still a price. By giving the kobolds infinite amounts of traps, including the suggested poison, which, for the cheapest poison, is still 75 GP (or "more than a level 1 expert will see in a few years") you aren't facing kobolds. You are facing a bunch of traps that just happen to have kobolds in the area that are meaningless.

Here's my point: If I gave a fighter 1 a Ring of Lots of Wishes Not Constrained By Casting Time, EXP Cost, or the Listed Rules for the Wish Spell and he killed a party of level 10 adventurers, would that prove that an intelligent fighter could win, or that he won because he was given a lot of money? The money, obviously.

That may seem out there. But think about it: The Kobold's are getting played as having free access to traps (which by the DMG prices are absurdly priced), no time required to build the traps, infinite access to poisons which cost more than they should have by their level, infinite amounts of alchemical supplies, the ability to always know where the party is (even when they rope trick after killing all the kobold guards in an area so there was no line of sight to them), absurdly complicated warrens, and infinite reinforcements despite the fact they only have one single entrance to their main warren which is not only hidden too well to ever be spotted by the adventurers but also can somehow transport infinite kobolds despite the fact it's only the width and height for one.

You aren't fighting Kobolds; you're fighting a DM Fiat cave filled with kobolds who supposedly "built" these traps. At the very least, you are fighting a bunch of level 1 kobolds with level 5 or higher wealth, which doesn't prove kobolds are being played "intelligently" so much as they are being played as "filthy rich."

[jindra34]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

5 silver pieces? What craft or profession skill rank are you granting them?

[Tiki Snakes]

Two quick points; Yes they do have near-infinate preperation time, they have entire generations of doing this. It's the whole point of Kobold Society.

ALSO; Traps VS Art - There is no conflict for Kobolds. They view Traps AS an art-form, so get to protect their lair AND indulge in aesthetic creativity at the same time.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think it isn't too much to assume that the kobolds are harvesting some poisonous creature (cave toads?).


Looking at traps... Ah. I see now.

By the SRD, a "Rolling Rock" trap costs 1,400 gp. I see. So, that is to say, hundreds of kobolds working for weeks can afford a single large rock. :smallconfused:

Pit traps cost 1800? What? A HOLE IN THE GROUND COSTS MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND GALLONS OF ALE?


Ok, Ok, admittedly, you need like little gears and levers and pressure plates, but still, that doesn't seem like the actual material cost would be that high. I think a bit of handwaving under these circumstances is justified.

[jindra34]

5 silver pieces? What craft or profession skill rank are you granting them?

Its well within reason from the SRD kobolds who have 2 ranks i each proffesion mining and craft trapmaking. Which equates to on average 6 gp a week. which is higher than my 5sp a day. And most traps that have been described involve removal of material not addition.

[vrellum]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

What about food, water, clothing, homes, all those other essential items that they have to create? Most people living at that tech were just trying to grow enough food that they didn't starve. Living underground is certainly not going to make it any easier.

[Kylarra]

Its well within reason from the SRD kobolds who have 2 ranks i each proffesion mining and craft trapmaking. Which equates to on average 6 gp a week. which is higher than my 5sp a day. And most traps that have been described involve removal of material not addition.
The odd thing is that it becomes sort of a self contained money making machine. I mean, I realize we don't really care about conservation of matter or similar properties in D&D, but we've effectively got kobolds ... working for themselves ... all generating income .... going towards traps ... that they are building and selling to themselves ... yet somehow still coming out in the green as a whole.

[shadow_archmagi]

What about food, water, clothing, homes, all those other essential items that they have to create? Most people living at that tech were just trying to grow enough food that they didn't starve. Living underground is certainly not going to make it any easier.

It seems to me that the Eygptians were able to both provide for themselves AND spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours designing elaborately trapped tombs.

[Kylarra]

It seems to me that the Eygptians were able to both provide for themselves AND spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours designing elaborately trapped tombs.Interestingly enough these tombs are foiled by people without magic... also you can place more traps when you don't ever intend to actually leave the place.

[Starbuck_II]

Egyptians were wealthy...no one made tombs except the rich. Poor people were slaves and made into mummies.

[shadow_archmagi]

Interestingly enough these tombs are foiled by people without magic... also you can place more traps when you don't ever intend to actually leave the place.

I was just making a point about civilizations having enough spare time to do major construction projects. Not about the quality of the tomb defenses or anything.



only the rich had tombs!


Yes but the civ as a WHOLE was CAPABLE of building those tombs (In quantity!). Which means that it isn't unreasonable to think that kobolds could also build large complexes with traps.

[Hurlbut]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)Resources that are spent on survival are well worth it. It's the Dogma of the kobolds; to value survival and offsprings above all.


But mines usually only flood after they are closed.
http://www.hrc.nrcce.wvu.edu/mhyd1.htm

So if the kobolds are not lazy, there wouldn't be flooding. If they are lazy, then they are not Tucker's Kobolds.They only flooded because there were no one else to keep them from flooding. So are you inferring that the kobolds do work to keep their warrens from flooding like Tiki Snakes implied?

[Kylarra]

Yes but the civ as a WHOLE was CAPABLE of building those tombs (In quantity!). Which means that it isn't unreasonable to think that kobolds could also build large complexes with traps.
Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

[shadow_archmagi]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

Hmm, that is a tricky one.

[jindra34]

My point was that the people who were assuming a warren would have to be built by WBL guidelines were wrong. Not to go into the economics of a warren producing traps. I think we can all agree that given time it should not be unfeasible to have an unspecifiable number of traps built by removal of material in a warren.

[Hurlbut]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.
Ah, but what is wealth? It is not defined by having coinage (gps), but the value attached to something. Simple traps can be made quite easily and you don't ever need coins to pay for them, you only need the value equivalent of the material or labour needed to make the traps. The warren can easily get material they need simply because they have the manpower to go out and gather them up or quickly build traps. :smallsmile:

[Kylarra]

My point was that the people who were assuming a warren would have to be built by WBL guidelines were wrong. Not to go into the economics of a warren producing traps. I think we can all agree that given time it should not be unfeasible to have an unspecifiable number of traps built by removal of material in a warren.It's not physically unfeasible no, but then you've moved on from "fighting kobolds" to "the legendary lair of the tiny dragon-creatures from which no one has ever returned".

[Radiun]

And?
The humans did not just move in either. I guess all of their farms are protected by mega-traps too, making it impossible for the kobolds to come and eat their babies.
Nor did the orcs. I guess their lair is completely unassailable too.
Although I thought the orcs conquered their lair from the dwarves that had lived there for hundreds of years. How could they have done that? Are dwarves lazier and less competent miners than kobolds?


Humans: Most of their work goes towards their elevated dietary needs.
Sturdy walls are all the traps they want as their livestock is more likely to trigger a trap than a random predator, especially as pastures (for the stealing of cows) tend to be wide-open spaces, not bottle-neck corridors. But hey, if a human convinces ~10 kobolds to work for free on their house, I'm sure it'll be the most lethal house on the block.

Orc-Dwarven wars include troops. Troops assaulted a keep who's size is convenient for them (hence their desire to take it over), and I'm willing to bet a pretty penny than the death-toll of these invasions amount to more than a few hundreds. It wasn't a flawless victory. A kobold warren can be annihilated, but it might need more than 6 people to do.

And the elves can trap the woods as much as they want, go ahead. Just realize they'll also be killing more animals than kobolds and that's not exactly what they set out to do.

[EleventhHour]

It's not physically unfeasible no, but then you've moved on from "fighting kobolds" to "the legendary lair of the tiny dragon-creatures from which no one has ever returned".

"Men, today we make a stand! This is the kobold cave of horrors that we had to flee those years ago when we lost Gregory, Pelor rest his soul, but now we have gained experince, we have learned from our mistakes, and I believe that we can defeat those little draconian dogs, and teach them the true ingenuity of humanity! ...and Elfdom, and Dwarves... We shall show them why they should have not burned and raided the town of Maribell. Wizard Zorander, do you have the fifteen million gallons of alchemist's fire? Please, shape the earth into a funnel to thier warren enterance. We are having a barbeque."

:smallbiggrin:

[Kylarra]

"Men, today we make a stand! This is the kobold cave of horrors that we had to flee those years ago when we lost Gregory, Pelor rest his soul, but now we have gained experince, we have learned from our mistakes, and I believe that we can defeat those little draconian dogs, and teach them the true ingenuity of humanity! ...and Elfdom, and Dwarves... We shall show them why they should have not burned and raided the town of Maribell. Wizard Zorander, do you have the fifteen million gallons of alchemist's fire? Please, shape the earth into a funnel to thier warren enterance. We are having a barbeque."

:smallbiggrin:This made me giggle.

[Hurlbut]

This made me giggle.admittedly I did too.:smalltongue:

[Lycanthromancer]

You are ignoring the point. Traps have listed values for them. Granted, they are extremely high, but it's still a price. By giving the kobolds infinite amounts of traps, including the suggested poison, which, for the cheapest poison, is still 75 GP (or "more than a level 1 expert will see in a few years") you aren't facing kobolds. You are facing a bunch of traps that just happen to have kobolds in the area that are meaningless.Buying the full spellcasting services of a level 1 sorcerer costs 55 gp per day (5 gp per cantrip, and 10 gp per 1st level spell); are you telling me that they have to have the gold ready to get their casters to defend their own homes?

Those prices are for hiring un/skilled people to do the labor for you. Digging a hole and shoving a few sharpened sticks in the bottom is easy for creatures that do that kind of thing as a matter of course anyway, and yet you're suggesting that the kobolds have to be incredibly rich (ie, they must have 1800 gp in spare cash lying around) to dig themselves a hole.

That's kind of absurd.

Likewise, finding a patch of brown mold that you scrape off the wall, grinding toxic mushrooms into powder, feeding bugs to poisonous frogs in cages, or spending hundreds of man kobold-hours scavenging for wood and other supplies effectively costs nothing, since the kobolds are doing it themselves, and are willing to do so for their own mutually-assured survival.

I don't see what's so absurd about that.


Here's my point: If I gave a fighter 1 a Ring of Lots of Wishes Not Constrained By Casting Time, EXP Cost, or the Listed Rules for the Wish Spell and he killed a party of level 10 adventurers, would that prove that an intelligent fighter could win, or that he won because he was given a lot of money? The money, obviously.If he made the ring himself, then yes, it is his win, especially if he used the wishes he got cleverly.

Kobolds make traps. It's in their fluff. It's in their mechanics. They can make very dangerous traps from simple things such as holes in the ground, pieces of wood, and rocks (all of which are, as even you suggested, grossly overpriced), which they then make more so by keeping their hands in things.

They're justified (mechanically and fluff-wise) in coming up with any and all traps that they're physically capable of setting up (which is quite a lot, with a bit of ingenuity, and they're by no means short on ingenuity).


That may seem out there. But think about it: The Kobold's are getting played as having free access to traps (which by the DMG prices are absurdly priced),They're holes. With sharpened sticks. I could do that myself in a weekend or less, with a shovel, knife, and some firewood.


no time required to build the traps,Potential years, decades, or even centuries of living in a place is "no time required"?


infinite access to poisons which cost more than they should have by their level,I found a black widow spider the other day. Easy enough to capture (had I wanted to), and nearly as easy to breed. I imagine that kobolds would have just as easy a time of it. Collect a few dozen and grind them up. Woo. Poison. Finding a batch of toxic mushrooms or a pond full of poison-skinned frogs wouldn't be difficult, if they're around to find. Heck, here's a list of common household plants that are considered deadly poisonous to most animals by the American Humane Society (http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/protect_your_pet_from_common_household_dangers/common_poisonous_plants.html), and they don't require any special processing. Just grind them to a paste, put them on something sharp, and you're done.

I'm looking at three things when it comes to what the Tucker's Kobolds should be doing in my campaign: 1. Is the situation CR-appropriate for my mid-level PCs? 2. Is the trap in question within the abilities of devious-minded little xenophobes with access to tools (both crafted and purloined), low-level magic that can be cast on the spot, and plenty of time? 3. Can the trap be sprung at minimal risk to the kobolds themselves, or is the damage done to the kobolds worth what it offers in the way of benefits?

If the answer is yes, there's no reason not to use them, either on a conceptual or mechanical level (assuming you make it fun, or at least interesting, for the players).


infinite amounts of alchemical supplies,Craft checks are well within reasonable levels for low-level experts with sorcerers to Aid Another, and they can (and likely will) stock up between uses. They make it a habit to pilfer from surrounding settlements, and are just as able to procure requisite ingredients as any other town of 400+ people.


the ability to always know where the party isHundreds of eyes come in handy.


(even when they rope trick after killing all the kobold guards in an area so there was no line of sight to them),Just because you killed the ones you saw doesn't mean you killed them all.


absurdly complicated warrens,They're kobolds; it's what they do.


and infinite reinforcementsNot infinite. Just lots. And lots that tend to be hard to get close to and kill due to their skirmishing tactics and use of terrain.


despite the fact they only have one single entrance to their main warren which is not only hidden too well to ever be spotted by the adventurers but also can somehow transport infinite kobolds despite the fact it's only the width and height for one.I don't believe anybody said they were restricted to one entrance/exit. In fact, it would behoove them to play like the Gummi Bears and have dozens of exits camouflaged and hidden around their warren's surroundings, Gummi roller-coasters notwithstanding.

...You've watched The Gummi Bears...right?


You aren't fighting Kobolds; you're fighting a DM Fiat cave filled with kobolds who supposedly "built" these traps. At the very least, you are fighting a bunch of level 1 kobolds with level 5 or higher wealth, which doesn't prove kobolds are being played "intelligently" so much as they are being played as "filthy rich."They have the time. They have access to the resources. I don't see why not, especially since NPCs aren't limited by PC wealth, and it's all via cleverness and hard work.

1800 gp for a hole in the ground is suspiciously absurd, isn't it? I could do that myself in a weekend; doesn't mean I'm rich.

[Starbuck_II]

They have the time. They have access to the resources. I don't see why not, especially since NPCs aren't limited by PC wealth, and it's all via cleverness and hard work.

1800 gp for a hole in the ground is suspiciously absurd, isn't it? I could do that myself in a weekend; doesn't mean I'm rich.

No, the 180% mark up is for the good hiding job of the trap. I am curiuous how a rogue disables a pit trap. Does the earth return to it? Is it filled now?

[Hurlbut]

No, the 180% mark up is for the good hiding job of the trap. I am curiuous how a rogue disables a pit trap. Does the earth return to it? Is it filled now?Probably disabled the coverage that hide the pit trap.

[Bayar]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

Kobold fluff: They consider trapmaking an art and try to out doeach other with more elaborate and deadly traps.

Umm, they each have assigned a work space ? Miners ? Supervisors ? Priests of Kurtulmak ? Arcanists ? Expert trapsmiths ? Warriors ? Dire weasel mounted cavalry ?

Yes, they flourish by trying to be inconspicuous, trying to not bring attention to themselves, being glad to be the underdog because their enemies will underestimate them.

Oh, and for those guys that say kobolds dont have enough money...who do you think provided dragons with hordes upon hordes of gold ? Yes, that is right, Kobolds. Hell, Races of the Dragon says that kobolds are filthy rich.




Egyptians were wealthy...no one made tombs except the rich. Poor people were slaves and made into mummies.

I dont know what part of that phrase to correct first.

First, they were not slaves. Slaves are not fed meat and bread and wine. Slaves dont get the best medical plan at the time. Would someone bother doing brain surgery on a slave to save their life from a tumor ? Nope. but they did to a piramid worker.

Second, those poor people probably didnt have enough money for mummification.

[Tiktakkat]

PCs can't compete with all natural drainage system. You'd need a really cohesive effort to even threaten it, let along make fast enough progress to make it really matter. How many Decanters are we talking about?

As many as there are pit traps. Remember, we are throwing any concept of wealth limits out of the window with this.


It's not really an unreasonable assumption. A molotov cocktail is fairly unreliable, but does 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack and costs 1sp. If you're producing your own oil with appropriate craft skills, you're down to 3cp. If you give the tribe as a whole any reasonable amount of money, they can have an effectively infinite supply of the stuff.

So the raw materials appear out of nowhere?


Great. That stops... one attack. Yay.

One attack per bolt of cloth you have.


You know, I'm really not sure what your point is supposed to be. What's got your hackles up about this whole thing?

My hackles are fine, thanks.
Why are you so defensive?


"Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival.

But they have a whole lot to do with game enjoyment.
You can also throw a great wyrm red dragon against a mid-level party.


Humans: Most of their work goes towards their elevated dietary needs.

Which they manage to fulfill by advanced farming techniques that the primitive rock eating kobolds have never learned.


Sturdy walls are all the traps they want as their livestock is more likely to trigger a trap than a random predator, especially as pastures (for the stealing of cows) tend to be wide-open spaces, not bottle-neck corridors. But hey, if a human convinces ~10 kobolds to work for free on their house, I'm sure it'll be the most lethal house on the block.

They do not need kobolds to do the labor, they have all those humans hanging around capable of doing the work. Remember, the kobolds are off turning their lairs into death traps, the humans are perfectly safe until the kobolds finish.


Orc-Dwarven wars include troops. Troops assaulted a keep who's size is convenient for them (hence their desire to take it over), and I'm willing to bet a pretty penny than the death-toll of these invasions amount to more than a few hundreds. It wasn't a flawless victory. A kobold warren can be annihilated, but it might need more than 6 people to do.

So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!


And the elves can trap the woods as much as they want, go ahead. Just realize they'll also be killing more animals than kobolds and that's not exactly what they set out to do.

No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

[Radiun]

So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!
Yes, you could overwhelm the Kobold's home.
but throw in some burrowers to tunnel into their true home, and realize it won't likely be over in a day.



No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

Pray tell, how do you set a trap that triggers based on species?

[Drakyn]

I really did mean it when I said earlier that I'd like to see Tucker's Hobgoblins. Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too. Tucker's kobolds have been taken as far as they can go sanity-wise, pretty much, and why not put some of the effort that's going into making them into Batman into expanding the strategic aspect of Tucker into other opponents? New, uncharted waters and all that. Tuckerize the world!

[Bayar]

As many as there are pit traps. Remember, we are throwing any concept of wealth limits out of the window with this.

No, adventurers dont have need for an infinite number of Decanters of Endless water for any normal adventure. Kobolds need traps to defend their lair. See the discrepancy ?




So the raw materials appear out of nowhere?

Miners. Smelters. Foragers. Thieves. Need I continue ?




One attack per bolt of cloth you have.

You have RAW for this ? Or is this one of your houserules ?




But they have a whole lot to do with game enjoyment.
You can also throw a great wyrm red dragon against a mid-level party.

Well, if adventurers decide that indeed, they want to raid a kobold lair considered "The den of Horrors", the DM needs to adjust the adventure accordingly. And the DM probably isnt enjoying when everyone else says "These monsters suck, I can one shot anyone at level 8 herp derp We are awesome your monsters suck".



Which they manage to fulfill by advanced farming techniques that the primitive rock eating kobolds have never learned.

You are again assuming that kobolds are INT dumping idiots. Kobolds CAN eat rocks. They just do that when there is nothing else to eat. They can farm mushrooms or hunt for gnomes outside thank you very much.



They do not need kobolds to do the labor, they have all those humans hanging around capable of doing the work. Remember, the kobolds are off turning their lairs into death traps, the humans are perfectly safe until the kobolds finish.


Lol, have you read the section dealing with kobolds laying siege ? Imagine about 4-5 warrens of kobolds, simply launching themselves on a suicide run against the enemy. Their primary advantage is numbers and soon enough they overwhelm the besieged. Of course, this only happens when they are running low on stuff to mine or they have an overpopulation and need new territories. And they mostly target gnomish lands (if there are no gnomish lands available, they just siege anything that would look weak enough).



So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!

God, I love that Skewer of Gnomes spear. Kobold Relic weapon. Oh, and I'd like to see a gnomish crusade against kobolds. It'd be like the Black Crusades of Chaos. Meaning they would be massive failures.



No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.



See ? You are not the only one to have bigass posts full of quotes.



I really did mean it when I said earlier that I'd like to see Tucker's Hobgoblins. Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too. Tucker's kobolds have been taken as far as they can go sanity-wise, pretty much, and why not put some of the effort that's going into making them into Batman into expanding the strategic aspect of Tucker into other opponents? New, uncharted waters and all that. Tuckerize the world!

Batman wizard thread led to flames. The thread that was intended to do the same thing, only with monks led to grimdark flamewar. Not a good idea to try to emulate them with Tuckers X.