Identifying the IFCC... a clue?

[Kornaki]

Ok, we're all curious what kind of demon, daemon and devil they are right? Well, we get a small hint from the comic I think... the two of them sitting on the couch are able to see V invisible (since they didn't have to adjust the screen for themselves) whereas the one who's coming back to sit down is unable to see invisibility

[Branco]

maybe he doesnt realize V is invisible because HE WASNT IN THE ROOM WATCHING TV WHEN V TURNED INVISIBLE HE WAS PROBABLY TAKING A LEAK!

[Kornaki]

But then the conversation would go

"He turned invisible"

"Oh, ok" *turn on see invisible*

Why would you even bother working out the see invisibility function on the TV if everyone who's going to watch it can see invisibility?

Also, you seem to have a shocking amount of emotion invested in his ability to see invisible creatures for some reason :smallconfused:

[Nimrod's Son]

Why would you even bother working out the see invisibility function on the TV if everyone who's going to watch it can see invisibility?
Well, I was watching and I can't see invisibility.

I take it you can?

[Kornaki]

Well, I was watching and I can't see invisibility.

I take it you can?

What? They turned on the see invisibility function on their TV. Otherwise no, neither of us would have been able to see V.

Anyway, I checked and balors have true seeing.... pit fiends don't. I remember seeing a thread somewhere about trying to figure out which director was which, but can't find it. Anyone know which guy's supposed to be which alignment?

[Nimrod's Son]

What? They turned on the see invisibility function on their TV. Otherwise no, neither of us would have been able to see V.
Yeah, that was kinda the point I was making.

[Kornaki]

Yeah, that was kinda the point I was making.

Yeah, because one of them came back and couldn't see V. Implying the other two of them could.

[Nimrod's Son]

No, all that implies is that the other two saw him turn invisible. There's nothing to suggest that they can still see him afterwards.

But even if all three of them could still see him, they turned on the special TV feature so that we, the audience, could see him. That's what I was getting at.

[Kornaki]

No, all that implies is that the other two saw him turn invisible. There's nothing to suggest that they can still see him afterwards.

The fact that they continue to watch? Why would they not turn on the see invisibility function to see what V is doing the whole time? I think it's much simpler that they have see invisibility innately than that they chose not to see what V was doing while invisible


But even if all three of them could still see him, they turned on the special TV feature so that we, the audience, could see him. That's what I was getting at.

Well, obviously there needs to be some way of us seeing where V is going in order to make the closed door work visually. But there could have been much easier ways of doing that, such as..

Evil dude 1: Oops, the elf turned invisible. Lemme ratchet up the see invisibility

And that's it. Maybe the conversation was just filler, but it certainly wasn't necessary for the see invisibility portion

[Nimrod's Son]

The fact that they continue to watch? Why would they not turn on the see invisibility function to see what V is doing the whole time?
Because, from a storytelling point of view, that wouldn't make any sense. Plus, it happened, like, seconds ago. Maybe they just couldn't reach the remote in time? Or they were distracted watching the rest of the fight? There is nothing whatsoever in that strip to suggest that the other two can still see V.

Also, we have Purple Guy saying, "Making a beeline for the stairs" which kind of implies that he wasn't already aware of that. Why bother commenting on that if he'd been watching him making a beeline for the stairs the whole time Orange Chap was in the toilet?


I think it's much simpler that they have see invisibility innately than that they chose not to see what V was doing while invisible
Yeah? Well, I disagree. *shrug*

[David Demola]

Yeah, because one of them came back and couldn't see V. Implying the other two of them could.

Or maybe wasting time/a spell slot really isn't worth it when there's a "see invisible" function on your TV.

For real.

~D

[Kornaki]

Or maybe wasting time/a spell slot really isn't worth it when there's a "see invisible" function on your TV.

For real.

~D

I explicitly refer to something that is innate in this thread. It's only 10 posts long, if you can't take the time to read the thing I'm not going to take the time to explain what I'm talking about

Nimrod, you have a good point, and we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Even in the worst case scenario though we know the orange guy isn't a balor

[David Demola]

Oh my apologies, but innate could mean that they have an innate ability to cast it, or it's on all the time.

I simply assumed the former.

[Dagren]

Oh my apologies, but innate could mean that they have an innate ability to cast it, or it's on all the time.

I simply assumed the former.That would be "At Will".

[Kornaki]

Oh my apologies, but innate could mean that they have an innate ability to cast it, or it's on all the time.

I simply assumed the former.

Ok, that's reasonable. I just got a bit annoyed since you seemed to be flippantly dismissing the thread's idea without understanding it.

The point I specifically had in mind is the dichotomy between pit fiends (who have no method of seeing invisible creatures) and balors (who always have true seeing active)

[David Demola]

Ahhh, there's where my misunderstanding is kicking in. Gracias.

[Silas_]

Anyone know which guy's supposed to be which alignment?

Lawful Evil Neutral Evil Chaotic Evil

[enarch3t]

I thought they turned the see invisibility for the Imp . . . Can they see invisible creatures?

[Kornaki]

I thought they turned the see invisibility for the Imp . . . Can they see invisible creatures?

If they could see invisible creatures they would be able to see the elf... but the orange guy can't (or he wouldn't ask where V went). That orange is LE meshes nicely with the fact that pit fiends don't have an automatic see invisibility effect. whereas balors (the yellow guy's the CE one and he's controlling the remote, and doesn't turn it on see invisibility immediately) can.

Is there any information at all on what daemons are?

[Zerg Cookie]

Are pit fiends archdevils and balors demon-princes? The fiends imply that they are archfiends, so can't they be something more... Archfiendish?

And the fiends are much smaller than the pit fiend Quarr summoned

[Volkov]

Are pit fiends archdevils and balors demon-princes? The fiends imply that they are archfiends, so can't they be something more... Archfiendish?

And the fiends are much smaller than the pit fiend Quarr summoned

No balors and pit fiends aren't even close to that rank, they aren't even demon lords or devil dukes.

[Volkov]

If they could see invisible creatures they would be able to see the elf... but the orange guy can't (or he wouldn't ask where V went). That orange is LE meshes nicely with the fact that pit fiends don't have an automatic see invisibility effect. whereas balors (the yellow guy's the CE one and he's controlling the remote, and doesn't turn it on see invisibility immediately) can.

Is there any information at all on what daemons are?

Ultraloths, Arcanaloths, or Baernoloths.

[KillianHawkeye]

And the fiends are much smaller than the pit fiend Quarr summoned

I'm pretty sure that particularly big dude was WAY too big to be a Pit Fiend. Pit Fiends are only like 12 feet tall.

[Y'nokhs]

I think the IFCC are likely to be unique creatures (would a balor or pit fiend fit under that robe?), so all bets are off.

Also, would magical senses work cross-planarly through the HDTV?

[Simanos]

I explicitly refer to something that is innate in this thread. It's only 10 posts long, if you can't take the time to read the thing I'm not going to take the time to explain what I'm talking about

Nimrod, you have a good point, and we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Even in the worst case scenario though we know the orange guy isn't a balor
Since you're reaching for straws here I will do the same. If you watch a TV with night-vision goggles and the camera man is filming a dark room with a normal camera you aren't going to be able to see what's in the dark. So no one could see invisible (or true see) from the TV before they enabled the TV's see invisible option.
That said, some divination spells do allow you to cast infravision and other such vision enhancing spells through them. But in the end we just don't know. You may be right, but it's improbable (though not impossible).

[SadisticFishing]

The idea that they can see invisibility is in no way implied in this comic.

They were too busy watching O'chul getting massacred to care about V, for a second. I know I was.

[Kornaki]

Since you're reaching for straws here I will do the same. If you watch a TV with night-vision goggles and the camera man is filming a dark room with a normal camera you aren't going to be able to see what's in the dark. So no one could see invisible (or true see) from the TV before they enabled the TV's see invisible option.
That said, some divination spells do allow you to cast infravision and other such vision enhancing spells through them. But in the end we just don't know. You may be right, but it's improbable (though not impossible).

Even a basic scrying spell allows you to see through it with any magical adaptions to vision that you have. If their new flat screen crystal ball doesn't do that it's pretty weak to be honest

[EmeraldPhoenix]

The conversation went like this:
Orange:"Where'd the elf go?" (Implying that the orange-eyed one CAN'T see invisible things and people)
Yellow:"Turned invisible while you were in the john." (This only tells us that the other two SAW V turn invisible, not that they can still see hir, but the point is moot because next he says) "Here, I'll adjust the screen." (Implying that the screen only needs adjusting because orange came in, and therefore that the screen needed adjusting so that orange could see it. The fact that they didn't bother to adjust it when V first turned invisible implies that the only person who needed help seeing was Orange.)
Purple: "I can't believe I was rooting for the paladin for a moment there. I feel dirty." (This is unimportant.)

Yellow: "There we go." (This does not, despite some opinion and debate, imply that yellow could not previously see it, only that he has now adjusted the screen. If he had suddenly been able to see V, he would no doubt have said "There he/she is.", not "There we go.".)



There you go.

Kudos to Kornaki for finding that. I didn't notice it while I was reading, but it seems really obvious in retrospect.

[Volkov]

I'm pretty sure that particularly big dude was WAY too big to be a Pit Fiend. Pit Fiends are only like 12 feet tall.

It could have been a max hit dice pit fiend, which would be 24-36 feet tall, with a permanent enlarge spell.

[veti]

The conversation went like this:
...
Purple: "I can't believe I was rooting for the paladin for a moment there. I feel dirty." (This is unimportant.)


Respectfully - no, that's not "unimportant" at all to your argument. That tells us that the Purple dude, at least, was watching the duel between O and X at that point, not focusing exclusively on V even though s/he's their main reason for watching. So that would explain why the two fiends hadn't bothered to switch on the 'Show Invisibility' function earlier - they just hadn't got around to it, they were distracted.

[Kornaki]

Respectfully - no, that's not "unimportant" at all to your argument. That tells us that the Purple dude, at least, was watching the duel between O and X at that point, not focusing exclusively on V even though s/he's their main reason for watching. So that would explain why the two fiends hadn't bothered to switch on the 'Show Invisibility' function earlier - they just hadn't got around to it, they were distracted.

Even if they were watching the paladin I would think they're interested in being able to see where V is, especially considering the possibility V comes over to help the paladin

[Branco]

The conversation went like this:
Orange:"Where'd the elf go?" (Implying that the orange-eyed one CAN'T see invisible things and people)
Yellow:"Turned invisible while you were in the john." (This only tells us that the other two SAW V turn invisible, not that they can still see hir, but the point is moot because next he says) "Here, I'll adjust the screen." (Implying that the screen only needs adjusting because orange came in, and therefore that the screen needed adjusting so that orange could see it. The fact that they didn't bother to adjust it when V first turned invisible implies that the only person who needed help seeing was Orange.)
Purple: "I can't believe I was rooting for the paladin for a moment there. I feel dirty." (This is unimportant.)

Yellow: "There we go." (This does not, despite some opinion and debate, imply that yellow could not previously see it, only that he has now adjusted the screen. If he had suddenly been able to see V, he would no doubt have said "There he/she is.", not "There we go.".)



There you go.

Kudos to Kornaki for finding that. I didn't notice it while I was reading, but it seems really obvious in retrospect.

You know, I said the exact same thing in the first post and i didnt need no effing paragraph.

[Kornaki]

You know, I said the exact same thing in the first post and i didnt need no effing paragraph.

No you didn't. Your first post seemed to be arguing against the premise without actually touching on the points made, whereas Belkar is developing the thought process of the characters in the conversation in order to support the premise. The fact that the two of you draw opposite conclusions should have been a good clue that you weren't saying the same thing

[Spiky]

I think it's much simpler that they have see invisibility innately than that they chose not to see what V was doing while invisible

If you are claiming Occam's Razor, I disagree. You are adding an action (turning on True Seeing or whatever) that we haven't seen in-comic. That is not simpler, by definition. Much simpler that they simply haven't done anything yet, like grab the remote.

[Kornaki]

If you are claiming Occam's Razor, I disagree. You are adding an action (turning on True Seeing or whatever) that we haven't seen in-comic. That is not simpler, by definition. Much simpler that they simply haven't done anything yet, like grab the remote.

You don't have to turn true seeing on, it's always on (at least for a balor, and for a lot of other demon and devil types around that power level, or at least some)

[Volkov]

This is probably the most pointless debate, ever....

[Optimystik]

The fact that yellow and purple adjusted the tv when orange came back in doesn't necessarily mean that they could see V without it. Taking that as conclusive proof of anything is just silly.

[Snake-Aes]

The idea that they can see invisibility is in no way implied in this comic.

They were too busy watching O'chul getting massacred to care about V, for a second. I know I was.

"I can't believe I was just rooting for a paladin there for a moment"
I'm with Sad's idea: They saw it the same way we saw the strip: X + V, X screams about bling, V goes invisible, scene switches to X + O-Chul, and they were watching up to the point John guy came back. He asked about V, they comment and tune to V.

[Silverraptor]

You know what I believe. That after V turned invisible, Purple and Yellow turned there attention to to O-chul. Then when orange came out they thought, "Oops, we forgot about that elf. Here we go."

Now I really want a television like that. They can see through the cloister, that means it's an epic television.:smallbiggrin:

[batsofchaos]

I tend to agree that their attention was refocused on Xykon and O-Chul for a moment. The comment made regarding rooting for a paladin highlights the fact that that's what they were watching. Additionally, how much time has passed between V turning invisible and them turning the feature on? Two rounds? It makes perfect sense for them to be distracted for 12 seconds or so watching Xykon wail on O-Chul before realizing they should probably find out what's up with V.

[SoC175]

The fact that they needed to activate the see invisibility function should reveal that these aren't powerfull fiends at all. All archfiends see through such paltry spells by default and even almost all of the higher rank-and-file fiends can do so.

So not having a permanent true seeing should out them as weak mid-rank fiends (however I guess it was just done for the sake of a joke)

[Kornaki]

The fact that they needed to activate the see invisibility function should reveal that these aren't powerfull fiends at all. All archfiends see through such paltry spells by default and even almost all of the higher rank-and-file fiends can do so.

So not haven a permanent true seeing should out them as weak fiends, however I guess it was just done for the sake of a joke

Pit fiends can't see invisibility

[SoC175]

Pit fiends can't see invisibility
That's why I said almost all higher rank-and-file fiend. Pitfiends are among the few exceptions. And if all of them would be mere pit fiends that would also pit them as being much weaker than formerly assumed.

[Dagren]

The fact that they needed to activate the see invisibility function should reveal that these aren't powerfull fiends at all. All archfiends see through such paltry spells by default and even almost all of the higher rank-and-file fiends can do so.

So not having a permanent true seeing should out them as weak mid-rank fiends (however I guess it was just done for the sake of a joke)Not necessarily. It's possible they have true seeing but can't use it through the TV.

[Snake-Aes]

The fact that they needed to activate the see invisibility function should reveal that these aren't powerfull fiends at all. All archfiends see through such paltry spells by default and even almost all of the higher rank-and-file fiends can do so.

So not having a permanent true seeing should out them as weak mid-rank fiends (however I guess it was just done for the sake of a joke)

Alternative: If the scrying doesn't see through invisibility, the "invisible image" won't reach your sight. Nothing invisible to see there.

[Innis Cabal]

Are pit fiends archdevils and balors demon-princes? The fiends imply that they are archfiends, so can't they be something more... Archfiendish?

And the fiends are much smaller than the pit fiend Quarr summoned

No, they are just really powerful devil/demons

[Jayabalard]

The fact that they continue to watch? Why would they not turn on the see invisibility function to see what V is doing the whole time? Because they were watching O-chul instead.

[Beren]

I think you're all missing the point. Who's holding the camera!?

[JLrep]

It's a TV. Whether they have True Seeing doesn't matter.

Look at it this way. Suppose someone next to V shines an infrared light. Suppose that the IFCC can see infrared. Well, they WON'T see it unless the TV itself can both sense and project infrared light. If the TV has a "see infrared light" option than the IFCC see it if and only if that option is turned on.

The TV is just relaying information. If it's not set to relay information about invisible persons, then the IFCC won't GET any information about invisible persons, whether they have True Seeing or whatever.

[Dalenthas]

I think you're all missing the point. Who's holding the camera!?

The Reader.

[theinsulabot]

This is probably the most pointless debate, ever....

no, its not, it doesnt even make the top 50. because the top 50, are all, about v's gender. the next 50 are about the MitD, those 50 just a nose ahead of the 50 or more debates that belkar, is not, in fact, evil.



yes you heard me.

then a couple arguments about miko, ranging from how it was all roy's fault she fell to her actually being of evil alignment herself. top 50 was being to nice, this doesn't make the top 500

also, as for who is holding the camera, clearly its just sitting in one of the many holes in the 4th wall

[Kornaki]

It's a TV. Whether they have True Seeing doesn't matter.

Look at it this way. Suppose someone next to V shines an infrared light. Suppose that the IFCC can see infrared. Well, they WON'T see it unless the TV itself can both sense and project infrared light. If the TV has a "see infrared light" option than the IFCC see it if and only if that option is turned on.

The TV is just relaying information. If it's not set to relay information about invisible persons, then the IFCC won't GET any information about invisible persons, whether they have True Seeing or whatever.

Presumably the TV works via some sort of scrying spell. Even the basic scrying spell allows magical enhancements of your vision to see through it properly, so I imagine their crystal ball does too

To quote the SRD


As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.

[JLrep]

Presumably the TV works via some sort of scrying spell. Even the basic scrying spell allows magical enhancements of your vision to see through it properly, so I imagine their crystal ball does too

To quote the SRD

Curse my inferior knowledge of D&D...
I suppose I stand corrected.

[Spiky]

The Reader.

I think you mean the Author.