[3.5] Spellguard Rings and Spell Immunity

[Keld Denar]

So...Spellguard Rings. Page 127 of Complete Mage. They specify thusly:



<snip>Effect: In order for them to function, both spellguard rings
must be worn—the gold ring by a spellcaster, the bronze one
by anyone else. When the rings are activated, the wearer of
the bronze ring becomes immune to any spell cast by the
wearer of the gold ring, as long as that spell is cast within
1 round.<snip>

So...the wearer of the bronze ring becomes immune to any spell cast by the wearer of the gold ring. But...what does immune mean? Lets look to the Glossary in the DMG.



Spell Immunity
A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.


So...the question is. If the spell cast in conjunction with the Spellguard Rings DOESN'T allow SR, like, say, Solid Fog, would the wearer of the Spellguard Ring still be affected by the Solid Fog?

How do you interpret the term immunity in the description?

[FMArthur]

In the most hilariously cruel way possible.

[Doc Roc]

I've always wondered about this too, frankly...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I don't know that the 'immune to any spell' thing specifically refers to Spell Immunity. There are much better ways they could have phrased it if it did. I'd say that he is essentially allowed to take actions completely ignoring the spells. Picture him wandering through a Solid Fog, getting hit by an off-target Orb, and EBT not realizing he's there. That said, while he could walk through a Wall of Force or Prismatic Sphere, he couldn't ignore a Wall of Iron(though he does balance on rock transmuted to mud).

And I have no idea how that would interact with an AMF.

[arguskos]

I'd probably rule the same way as Sstoopidtallkid. Spellguard Rings let you ignore the spells the gold ring wearer casts. It's a great teamwork item, in my opinion.

[Keld Denar]

I look at it, and to me, it would be a great item for a blaster/charger combo that practices poor teamwork. Blaster just wants to lob Fireballs all day long, and charger can't wait to get as far from his party as possible. It would work for a Fireball, since they allow SR...

But, would it work for a Black Tentacles? I'm still inclined to say no. If Spell Immunity is not the definition of immune to spell...what is?

[arguskos]

I look at it, and to me, it would be a great item for a blaster/charger combo that practices poor teamwork. Blaster just wants to lob Fireballs all day long, and charger can't wait to get as far from his party as possible. It would work for a Fireball, since they allow SR...

But, would it work for a Black Tentacles? I'm still inclined to say no. If Spell Immunity is not the definition of immune to spell...what is?
Specific trumps general. It doesn't actually say "The wearer is immune to spells, as Spell Immunity." It says, "The wearer is immune to all spells." To me, that reads as the rings alter the gold wearer's spells to simply ignore the bronze wearer. It's very much a common sense call. I figure that if it was just a crappy item of Spell Immunity, it'd say that. Otherwise, I'm using the dictionary definition of "immunity".

Really, one can rule either way. I'm more likely to rule the cool and fun way than the restrictive, yet more in-line with RAW, way. Your mileage may vary. :smallwink:

[quick_comment]

Could a wizard wear both rings himself to be immune to his own AMF, solid fog, cloudkill, etc?

[Curmudgeon]

Could a wizard wear both rings himself to be immune to his own AMF, solid fog, cloudkill, etc?
No.
In order for them to function, both spellguard rings must be worn—the gold ring by a spellcaster, the bronze one by anyone else. Unless you can qualify as both a spellcaster and anyone else simultaneously, this just won't work.

[Keld Denar]

S
Really, one can rule either way. I'm more likely to rule the cool and fun way than the restrictive, yet more in-line with RAW, way. Your mileage may vary. :smallwink:

See, I'm ok with ruling it cool. Even the most restrictive way to think about it, you still have a wizard who can drop fireballs on his BDF without fear of warming him up. Thats what I think it was intended to be. Reading it the other way, yea, walking through an EBT would be good and not game breaking, but a Master Specialist Abjurer who drops an AMF on his pet BDF who still has all of his buffs and magic items working is BLATENT abuse. Its things like that that open up when you start reading things in a very open light, and can quickly make a DMs life a nightmare trying to challenge the players until he starts blindly swinging the banhammer at everything that moves.

[Dogmantra]

No. Unless you can qualify as both a spellcaster and anyone else simultaneously, this just won't work.

Dvati, anyone?

[IM@work]

If I recall correctly doesn't it only work for 3 rounds/day. That way no overkill of fighter in amf. I've used them in campaigns mostly to get around cloud effects: fighter able to survive in cloudkill unhindered, etc. For things like fireball, that's just poor planning on the wizards part. If you buy them just for that you need to rethink your character choice/battle strategy.

[Keld Denar]

If I recall correctly doesn't it only work for 3 rounds/day.

No, its any spells cast in 3 rounds a day. Thats up to 6 spells with Quicken that you could make him immune. It doesn't specify that the immunity ends at the end of the round, so the fighter should remain immune to the whole spell even as the round passes.

[Doc Roc]

[..] I've used them in campaigns mostly to get around cloud effects: fighter able to survive in cloudkill unhindered, etc. For things like fireball, that's just poor planning on the wizards part. If you buy them just for that you need to rethink your character choice/battle strategy.

This is my feeling, and as I gather it, also the general opinion of the boards.... I just don't see a compelling counter-argument in this particular case with the wording as it sits. I mean, I grok the precedent but spell immunity is a keyworded ability, not a umbrella category.....

[quick_comment]

No. Unless you can qualify as both a spellcaster and anyone else simultaneously, this just won't work.

Familiar spell? Give the gold ring to your familiar, and use the other one yourself.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

See, I'm ok with ruling it cool. Even the most restrictive way to think about it, you still have a wizard who can drop fireballs on his BDF without fear of warming him up. Thats what I think it was intended to be. Reading it the other way, yea, walking through an EBT would be good and not game breaking, but a Master Specialist Abjurer who drops an AMF on his pet BDF who still has all of his buffs and magic items working is BLATENT abuse. Its things like that that open up when you start reading things in a very open light, and can quickly make a DMs life a nightmare trying to challenge the players until he starts blindly swinging the banhammer at everything that moves.In the particular case of the AMF, you just say the ring is still vulnerable. When it get's turned off by the AMF, so does your immunity to the AMF, meaning your buffs and items no longer work(justifying the ring winking out). Yes, it's circular, but it short-circuits that abuse.

[Doc Roc]

I mean, it's still only almost as good as extraordinary spell-aim or sculpt spell

[lsfreak]

I mean, it's still only almost as good as extraordinary spell-aim or sculpt spell

Of course, this means for a mere 8000gp per person, you can make your entire party immune to your spells, since you can double the cost of any slotted item to make it slotless. That might be slightly more problematic.

[Doc Roc]

Only three spells a day, I believe, RAI. And only if you have a party with just one caster you want to have said immunity from. And only if the GM allows slotless custom items. I have never met one who did, nor do I myself allow them. You'll take your orange ioun stone and be happy, thank you sir. :smallbiggrin: I do not deny it is a powerful item. I would just like it to remain a useful one rather than get nerf-batted so hard that it's only useful to the careless and the stupid.


Anything that lets non-casters play a more meaningful role in combat is fundamentally good.

[Salt_Crow]

Familiar spell? Give the gold ring to your familiar, and use the other one yourself.

I think that would work beautifully ;)

[quick_comment]

Oh man.

Incantrix. Familiar Spell(AMF). Spellguard Ring. Persist Spell.

You are now immune to everything other than your own spells and instantenous conjurations effects.

[Kornaki]

YOU are immune to the AMF. Your spells are still as vulnerable as always (you can cast them, but it gets the same effect as if you're casting a spell from outside an AMF into one, only in a much quicker time frame) As is your equipment. Basically, if you're a summoned creature you won't get poofed away