Fixing Monks??? 3.5 Edition (One of many monk threads I'm sure)

[EENick]

Hey all,

It seems to me a lot of people are down on monks, and not without reason. There very structured powers leave for little choice or clever combinations and they seem generally under powered due to the massive power of magic items, most of which they'll never use.

So I'm trying to brain storm some idea to improve monks.

Here are some of my ideas so far. (Not these are ALL ideas I've had which is not to say I think monks should get ALL these abilities.)

Reward Monks based on their fighitng skills as they are supposed to be more accurate and graceful warriors
- Deal extra damage based on accuracy but no more then their monk level: IE: A 5th level monk rolls 7 over what they need to hit a foe so their attack does 5 extra damage. The same 5th level monk rolls 3 over what they need to hit later so they'll do 3 extra damage on that turn.
- Expand monk criticals. As monks level up and start doing better unarmed damage expand their critical threat range and damage multiplier.

Give Monks Fighting Styles to learn as they level up which they change from round to round allowing them both some diversity and ability to adapt.
- Static Bonuses based on the style they choose that round.
- A special effect based on openings in combat. When a monk makes a full attack on a foe and hits they get to roll on a fighting style chart (different for each fighting style) to get a secondary effect. The monk cound adjust this roll by 1 for each monk level they have to try and get the effect they want to reflect their increase in skill.
- Allow fighting styles to be weapon specific such as unarmed, sword, staff etc.

IE:
1-10: No effect
11-20: +1 damage.
etc. etc.
81-90: Trip foe unless they make a reflex save.
91-100: Stun a foe unless they make a fort save.

Allow monks to gain mystical techniques which they could choose. That would function more like Psi-feats which expends psi-focus then spells to keep monks fairly different. A centered monk could perform any technique they know but the more powerful the technique the longer it takes them to regain focus.
- IE: A player learns a technique to give them a bonus to one attack but then looses their focus for 1d4 turns. They roll a 2. When they regain their focus 3 turns later they use a technique to allow them to teleport a short distance behind a foe and loose their center for 3d6 rounds.

Make a feature of the class more attacks of opportunity. (In the movies people always seem to pay with a punch to the face for missing an attack on a martial artists.)
-Gains attacks of opportunity for being attack at high levels.
-Gain attack of opportunity when opponents misses on some or all attacks.

Ditch some of the monks less useful/interesting abilities in exchange for these new powers.
-Monks loose slow fall, still mind, diamond body, Timeless Body, abundant step, Quivering Palm.

[Pramxnim]

Yep, monk fixes are about as popular as Soulknife fixes, which are already abundant as it is.

I'm not too well-versed with monks, but if you're looking for an example of a more mystical approach, you could try looking at my Tattooed Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111792) class. I'm not calling it a fix by any stretch of the imagination, just me trying to tinker and expand on what I consider a fun but weak class feature. See if that gives you ideas.

Alternatively, Jane Smith posted a Variant Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108954) last month that expanded on the fighting style a lot. Certainly worth a look.

There are enough monk fixes lying around that you can just cherry-pick what you like and use that for your campaign. Cheers

[Starscream]

Yeah, there have been a lot of these. My own method was just to give them d10 HD, full BAB, and treat their unarmed damage as if they are one size category larger. It's simple but makes a big difference.

I've since discovered Fax Celestis' Monk (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk), and I have to say that it looks like tons of fun. I haven't had an opportunity to play one, but I really want to.

[Roderick_BR]

I'll second Fax's variant. One of my favorites thus far.
Suggestions for your changes:
1) Don't know.
2) Flurry stops increasing at level 13. Every couple levels after that, increase his base critical range (15-16th) and base critical multiplier (18-19th).
3) Check the variant styles from unearthed arcana (google d20 hypertext) for monks. For every 4-5 levels, let the player choose one of those styles. As a swift action, he can switch from one style to another he knows.

[Baron Corm]

I think you're making a new class, based on monk flavor, rather than fixing the mechanical aspects. Most true fixes just have one or more of the following things:

Lesser Flurry in a standard action (or pounce-like ability)
1/1 BAB
"Glove" or "Bracer" that functions as an enchantable unarmed strike weapon

That said, feel free to homebrew a class with techniques and such. It sounds interesting. One thing I would comment on about your class is that you should give it 1/1 BAB, because


Deal extra damage based on accuracy but no more then their monk level

doesn't make much sense if your base attack is 3/4 of a fighter's.

[EENick]

doesn't make much sense if your base attack is 3/4 of a fighter's.

Well my concern was that would make the monks too powerful if they used the fighter attack table.

_________


Hmmm each of those variants is interesting in there own way. I do agree those are some good ways to improve the monk.

Thanks for that bit of feedback on the ideas. I think I'll reread these variants again and try and define my own ideas a bit more or if I can't come up with anything try one of these existing mods.

[Lappy9000]

I've since discovered Fax Celestis' Monk (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk), and I have to say that it looks like tons of fun. I haven't had an opportunity to play one, but I really want to.I've used one as a high-level NPC. It kicked the party's butts :smallbiggrin:

[Dienekes]

Another one for Fax's fix.

But if you're looking for more ideas, I made one awhile back that may give you some ideas.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108088

No guarantees on how good it is though.

[EENick]

I'll take all the suggestions I can get. Besides usually a class is pretty fun to read about.

[Ashtagon]

Well my concern was that would make the monks too powerful if they used the fighter attack table.

I did some mathematical analysis on this a month ago. Assuming fighting a level-appropriate opponent, even with flurry on, a monk's attack is always weaker (ie. fewer hits per full attack action) than a fighter's sword-and-board attack, no matter what character level. Add in that the fighter can typically have an enchanted sword with all manner of damage bonuses, and the monk's extra base damage becomes meaningless.

Full bab is pretty much essential to make it fair.

[Severedevil]

To the OP: A lot of your suggestions sound like Stances/Maneuvers from Tome of Battle, so you could just play an unarmed Swordsage.

[Berserk Monk]

Yeah, I don't know what all this talk of monks being underpowered is about. It's a more than balanced class: best saves, decent BAB (not to mention flurry of blows which eventually results in -0 to attacks when used), average hit die, huge bonus to base land speed, powerful fist that can eventually deal more damage than other weapons, their fist become magical to overcome DR, they eventually become outsiders. Yeah, monk is a great class. Only down fall they can't multiclass to barbarian to get rage what with being lawful (but I've found ways around this).

[EENick]

To the OP: A lot of your suggestions sound like Stances/Maneuvers from Tome of Battle, so you could just play an unarmed Swordsage.

Hmmm there is certainly are some of similarities between my ideas and those put forth in the swordsage but not quite enough that I think I want to abandon the monk. I might however incorperate some swordsage ideas. Thanks for pointing the class out to me. I was not familiar with it.

_______________

Edit: Hmmm I might just have to pick up the Tome of Battle. From the samples I found it looks like it might actually be worth reading. I'm not really sold on the Maneuvers, they seem a little to much like spells, but it is still better then a lot of ideas I've seen to try and spice of warriors. Plus the idea of a chaotic warrior class that actually used Intelligence for its abilities is a nice little bizzaro twist that appeals to me. I couldn't find the Swordsage on the WotC site so I'll have to wait till I actually buy the book I guess.

[Roderick_BR]

@Berserk Monk: I won't get on the specifics on how a monk is limited in D&D, just search around and you'll eventually find it.

@EENick: Maneuvers are no more spellcasting than abilities with daily/weekly uses (stunning fist, quivering palm, wholeness of body, the many stunning-fist based feats like fiery defense, ki blast,...), although some may sound a bit too magic-y for "training only" abilities, especially Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. The rest are like "once a encounter" more powerful fighter feats.

[grautry]

Edit: Hmmm I might just have to pick up the Tome of Battle. From the samples I found it looks like it might actually be worth reading. I'm not really sold on the Maneuvers, they seem a little to much like spells, but it is still better then a lot of ideas I've seen to try and spice of warriors. Plus the idea of a chaotic warrior class that actually used Intelligence for its abilities is a nice little bizzaro twist that appeals to me. I couldn't find the Swordsage on the WotC site so I'll have to wait till I actually buy the book I guess.

Buy the book, seriously.

You can talk for ages about 'how-to-fix-monk' but all you're accomplishing is doing a job that's already done.

The monk fix has been here for a long time - it's called an unarmed Swordsage!

[Shalizar]

Best Monk Fix for 3.5 I have ever seen. Just keep out Vow of Poverty, I don't personally allow that in my games. revised monk (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon6c.htm)

[Faleldir]

Yeah, I don't know what all this talk of monks being underpowered is about.
Allow me. This isn't my opinion, but a summary of other people's opinions on various optimization boards.

best saves
This is true.

decent BAB
Less than full BAB means they won't qualify for many useful feats at level 6.

not to mention flurry of blows which eventually results in -0 to attacks when used
As a 2-level dip, FOB is great! It's just mitigated by the low BAB and low damage.

average hit die
But without armor or spells, their AC is usually below average.

huge bonus to base land speed
Which prevents them from using their FOB.

powerful fist that can eventually deal more damage than other weapons
When your Barbarian friend is doing +160 Power Attack damage, it doesn't matter what his base weapon damage is.

their fist become magical to overcome DR
At that level, who doesn't have magical weapons?

they eventually become outsiders.
Which makes them immune to beneficial spells like Enlarge Person.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but these are the complaints I've heard about Monks. Personally, I don't think it's impossible to make a decent Monk build; that depends on the average optimization level of the campaign. However, I agree that a Monk 20 is always weaker than a multiclass Monk.

[Berserk Monk]

They get their own feat designed specifically for them: Vow of Poverty. What other class is gonna take it. Not only do monks insanely benefit from it, there's barely any restrictions for them when they take it.

[Siosilvar]

They get their own feat designed specifically for them: Vow of Poverty. What other class is gonna take it. Not only do monks insanely benefit from it, there's barely any restrictions for them when they take it.
Aside from not being able to use magic items, for things like flight. Or invisibility. Sure, you can get them cast on you, but you need to be in touch range of the wizard or cleric, and you're basically a scouting class.

[Pramxnim]

They get their own feat designed specifically for them: Vow of Poverty. What other class is gonna take it. Not only do monks insanely benefit from it, there's barely any restrictions for them when they take it.

Might I point out the Druid? Sure, Vow of Poverty is underpowered compared to magic items, but Druids can function just fine without them since they don't require holy symbols for their spells. Granted, for a Wildshaping Druid, Vow of Poverty is very unoptimized unless you really don't want to keep track of your items, but for a Shapeshifting Druid (PHB II variant, p40), Vow of Poverty covers the fact that your magic items don't function in Shapeshift form.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Seriously, unarmed Swordsage is the answer here.

The problem with monk is they really can't do a whole lot to anything due to lower BAB and get stomped easily because they don't have armor to enchant.

The second problem is their class abilities are mutually exclusive. Thus a Monk who uses their faster speed cannot use their Flurry in the same turn. And ending your turn next to an opponent? Yea... grease stain.

The third big problem is they are a melee class that doesn't generally wear armor but doesn't really have any way of significantly boosting their AC, and their Hit Die sucks for a melee class. In other words, they turn into a grease stain every time they try to use their Flurry.

Swordsage fixes all this.

[EENick]

I have not read the swordsage yet so maybe it covers this, but I'd just like to point out fixing the monk is more then just fixing them mechanically it is also about flavor.

Fixing the fighter by giving them spells for example might put them on par with wizards at the higher levels but really it is no solution at all.

[grautry]

I have not read the swordsage yet so maybe it covers this, but I'd just like to point out fixing the monk is more then just fixing them mechanically it is also about flavor.

Fixing the fighter by giving them spells for example might put them on par with wizards at the higher levels but really it is no solution at all.

Swordsages fit the flavour of monk without any problems whatsoever. They're the(paraphrased) 'wandering mystic, the martial scholar, blurring the line between martial prowess and magical skill'.

And worst case? Is it really such a problem to re-fluff a class if the flavour is not to your liking?

Point is, the mechanics of Swordsages are excellent, being both powerful and simply FUN to play around with. There's even a section that tells you exactly how to adapt the Swordsage to unarmed combat style.

The only thing that you can hold against ToB is the Eastern influence if you're extremely allergic to it. But if that's the problem then why do you want a monk in the first place?

[J.Gellert]

I say keep it simple.

1. Alignment: Any.
2. Full BAB.
3. Quivering Palm: 1/day.
4. +2 AC bonus starting at level 1.

They won't be competing for the best class around, but at least they'll be able to hit something, and they'll actually use Quivering Palm (1/week? What were they drinking when they came up with that?).