Wizards are the strongest class. yes?

[JeptCloak]

As someone who doesn't, and probably will not, play D&D, I thought I'd ask people who do. Within the 3.5 format the OOTS operates under, I take it Wizards are the superior class? Leaving aside the number of jokes like "tell that to Xykon!" and "O'Chul is the greatest class!", this is more or less correct I take it? Leaving aside classes normally outside the selection range of players obviously.

While we're on the subject, Lichs are the best type I believe?

So in effect a Lich Wizard is where it is at?

[Zevox]

In general, spellcasters are the strongest type of character. Which spellcasters are the strongest in particular though is very arguable, and in my opinion very situational.

I suspect if you were to ask around the Character Optimization boards on the Wizards of the Coast forums (which are stocked with people that obsess over this type of thing), you'd be more likely to get told that Clerics and Druids ("CoDzilla") are the most powerful (core) classes, not Wizards. But again, it seems to me that that's quite situational.

Zevox

[ZeroNumerous]

As a villain? Definitely. However, I don't think that's your question.

As a player? No. Why? Because the Lich template carries a Level Adjustment of 4. Meaning a Lich Wizard is a 16th level wizard while the rest of the party is 20th level. In the case of OotS, he would be an 8th or 9th level wizard compared to V's 13 levels. Why is this significant? Because at 9th level a wizard has access to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells. Conversely, at 13th level a wizard has access to 6th and 7th level spells on top of those that a 9th level wizard can access. The difference in spell level access is significant enough to make the bonuses from Lich essentially pointless.

[Chronos]

Out of the core classes, and with moderately intelligent play, wizard, cleric, and druid are by far stronger than any of the others. Which one is better than the others depends on who's playing them, what books are allowed, how much effort you're putting into them, and so on.

Lich, though, isn't generally worth it. When you become a lich, you have to basically put your class advancement on hold for four levels, and while being a lich does have its advantages, none of them are worth as much as four more levels in a spellcasting class.

[Berserk Monk]

As someone who doesn't, and probably will not, play D&D, I thought I'd ask people who do. Within the 3.5 format the OOTS operates under, I take it Wizards are the superior class? Leaving aside the number of jokes like "tell that to Xykon!" and "O'Chul is the greatest class!", this is more or less correct I take it? Leaving aside classes normally outside the selection range of players obviously.

While we're on the subject, Lichs are the best type I believe?

So in effect a Lich Wizard is where it is at?

Yeah, but a sorcerer and other classes don't need a book containing all their class features that if they lose they're screwed. They also don't need to read it once a day to be powerful.

No. Druid. Powerful spellcasters. Lots of spells per day (almost as much as a sorcerer). Decent BAB. They can turn into animals and attack others. They get an animal minion with cool powers to do their bidding. Average hit die.

Druids are the most powerful. Look at Leeky. How many people did it take to bring the gnome down?

SoD:
Even Xykon needed a lean undead body to take down Lirian.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Wizards are generally considered the most mechanically powerful class, because their wide variety of spells means they can fill almost every role in the party better than classes that are dedicated to it, as well as being able to do a whole ton of things that no other class can. Clerics and Druids are generally considered to be in the same tier, with sorcerers shortly below (a Wizard's ability to know practically every spell in the book is generally considered more useful than a Sorcerer's ability to respond instantly.) A Wizard with perfect information and 24 hours to prepare for a given situation is generally considered invincible - note that these things aren't usually available in a D&D game, though.

As for liches, they're actually a suboptimal choice for player characters because just being a lich counts as having three character levels in "being a lich", which doesn't add to any features from another class, including Wizard - this is called Level Adjustment. So for a player character, normally limited to 20 levels, being a lich is the difference of 3 character levels that could be spent on being a better Wizard - since Wizards are so awesome, that's not necessarily a good trade.

Now, for NPCs like Xykon, it matters less because that just means they're a little tougher and PCs get more experience for beating them.

[Zevox]

Lots of spells per day (almost as much as a sorcerer).
Er, no, actually, Druids get arguably the least amount of spells per day of any of the core casting classes (not counting those whose casting abilities are secondary features, like Bards and Paladins). Their class-given slots cap at the same amount as Clerics, but they don't get a bonus slot comparable to what Clerics get from their domains.

Compared to Wizards, they get one more slot at levels 1-4 than wizards ultimately do, but Wizards can close that gap and end up with more than druids at higher levels if they specialize. And at low levels, a specialist wizard will beat a druid in spells per day, while a non-specialist will equal them.

Sorcerers definitely beat them there no matter how you look at it, getting 6 slots per spell level ultimately, and starting with 3 when they get a new spell level (as opposed to the druid's 1).

Zevox

[averagejoe]

It should also be noted that, while wizards are the, or close to the, strongest class, and sorcerers are no slouches even considering this, the casters in OotS do not generally act in optimal ways. For example, V likes his fireballs and lightning bolts, and Durkon spends a lot of time healing. This seems to be changing somewhat, but even so, the casters are not, by and large, optimized.

[Forbiddenwar]

I disagree with the concept of weaker classes and stronger classes. It's all situational. A wizard with a 6 charisma is probably the worst character to play when you have to convince a king of your innocence. All spellcasters run the risk of being attacked every time they cast a spell. If they are hit, they can lose the spell as well as hit points. Most spell casters have to prepare their spells in advance (12 hours or more in advance). And most spells allow for saving throws, which means half or no damage or effect if the target rolls moderately well. (about 50% of the time, the spells do no damage to rogues and monks, and half damage to everyone else)(your wizards fireball is no good if it doesn't do any damage). Wizards have to be able to speak (we've seen a lot of gagged characters in the strip), have their hands free and have the necessary materials and equipment in order to cast most spells. (your wizard just a soft sack of meat after my fighter in full armor tackles him)
Also wizards rely heavily on their book. a fireball gone ary and they have lost the ability to cast any spells.

In another thread, we discussed how a monk can beat up spell casters reatively easily due to many factors like fast speed, high saves, high touch ac, etc. Does that means wizards are weaker than monks? NO.

It really is situational and depends a lot on how people think. I know I play fighters much better than any spellcaster. Because it is how I react to game situations. I stand a much better chance at surviving in video games playing a barbarian or fighter, than a wizard.

For you, in the hypothetical game you're thinking of, a wizard might be the best choice to play. But it depends on too many factors. How do you think, how do you react, what style of game are you playing in, etc)

[Silverraptor]

I think this belongs in the gaming forum.

Anyways, wizards a good class, yes, but it mainly depends on what level you are and your style of play. Wizards at low level are pathetic, there I said it and you guys all know it's true. They need good body guards to protect them while they get experience. But when a wizard reaches high level, they can effectively solo a dungeon. So if you like to be the strongest, then high level wizard is the best choice for you.

[JeptCloak]

I think my question is being misunderstood to some degree. I wasn't really asking "which is the best to develop as a character", no more than I was asking "is Shellgon (I think I spelt that right) the best Pokemon to have" (no, because he is pretty lame, but he evolves into something awesome later).

My question is with all things being equal which is the best. So for example, lvl 20 Wizard v.s Lvl 20 Druid, Paladin, etc. Likewise, lvl 20 Lich v.s lvl 20 non-lich.

I assume lvl Wizard Lich is the correct answer in term of finished product character? This is a question based on what is the best class to be in the OOTS world, rather than in developing a game player, so I think it really belongs on this thread.

btw, I think V is lvl 14, not 13.

[averagejoe]

snipped for length

To some degree this is true; however, wizards can deal with overwhelmingly more situations than the non-primary casting classes, and can do so with more efficiency and expediency.


I think my question is being misunderstood to some degree. I wasn't really asking "which is the best to develop as a character", no more than I was asking "is Shellgon (I think I spelt that right) the best Pokemon to have" (no, because he is pretty lame, but he evolves into something awesome later).

My question is with all things being equal which is the best. So for example, lvl 20 Wizard v.s Lvl 20 Druid, Paladin, etc. Likewise, lvl 20 Lich v.s lvl 20 non-lich.

I assume lvl Wizard Lich is the correct answer in term of finished product character? This is a question based on what is the best class to be in the OOTS world, rather than in developing a game player, so I think it really belongs on this thread.

btw, I think V is lvl 14, not 13.

A level 20 lich is stronger than a level 20 non-lich; however, I don't think "lich" is the strongest template option. I don't actually know offhand, but there are a lot of templates out there.

However, the strength of DnD classes isn't generally determined by 1v1 fights, it is determined by how well the character can do in a group vs. whatever monsters they might encounter, i.e. how well they do in actual game situations, because such 1v1 fights are rare between PC's.

However, by either metric the wizard is a pretty strong candidate for best.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I assume lvl Wizard Lich is the correct answer in term of finished product character? This is a question based on what is the best class to be in the OOTS world, rather than in developing a game player, so I think it really belongs on this thread."Best" is subjective, but by the metric of "who can pull off the most useful stuff the easiest", you're looking at Wizard, non-Lich, for an Effective Character Level 20 character. Either that or a Druid or Cleric.

[factotum]

Lich, though, isn't generally worth it. When you become a lich, you have to basically put your class advancement on hold for four levels, and while being a lich does have its advantages, none of them are worth as much as four more levels in a spellcasting class.

Unless you're a 77-year-old human with not many years left in you...I'm sure at that point becoming a lich seems quite an attractive option. :smallbiggrin:

[SoC175]

I disagree with the concept of weaker classes and stronger classes. It's all situational. A wizard with a 6 charisma is probably the worst character to play when you have to convince a king of your innocence.
Unless you have a quickened charm person ready.

All spellcasters run the risk of being attacked every time they cast a spell. If they are hit, they can lose the spell as well as hit points.
Only at low to mid levels. After that the check to cast without provoking an AoO is auto pass.

And most spells allow for saving throws, which means half or no damage or effect if the target rolls moderately well. (about 50% of the time, the spells do no damage to rogues and monks, and half damage to everyone else)(your wizards fireball is no good if it doesn't do any damage).
Which isn't any different from weapon classes misses with their attacks, except that they generally never do damage on a miss. And wizards have a lot more option to get touch attacks.

Wizards have to be able to speak (we've seen a lot of gagged characters in the strip), have their hands free
A bound fighter can't fight either.

and have the necessary materials and equipment in order to cast most spells. (your wizard just a soft sack of meat after my fighter in full armor tackles him)
Since the wizard will be flying and be insubstantial that won't happen.

In another thread, we discussed how a monk can beat up spell casters reatively easily due to many factors like fast speed, high saves, high touch ac, etc. Does that means wizards are weaker than monks? NO.
No, because they'll beat the monk with ease. Speed and saves don't matter at high levels and their touch AC is only high as far as typical touch ACs are concerned which is still much lower than ordinary ACs.



Last but not least: If, against all odds, you manage to slay the wizard you'll discover that you just slaing the projected image of his astral projection while the wizard himself is safely hidden within his own private demiplane.

[ZeroNumerous]

Basing the following off a wizard..


A wizard with a 6 charisma is probably the worst character to play when you have to convince a king of your innocence.

Stilled, Silent Charm Person. Alternatively, kill and then animate said King.


All spellcasters run the risk of being attacked every time they cast a spell.

Fly.


Most spell casters have to prepare their spells in advance (12 hours or more in advance).

That allows metamagic, which is hilariously breakable.


And most spells allow for saving throws, which means half or no damage or effect if the target rolls moderately well. (about 50% of the time, the spells do no damage to rogues and monks, and half damage to everyone else)(your wizards fireball is no good if it doesn't do any damage).

A) Saving throws are based off 10+spell-level+Intelligence modifier sans feats/items.
B) A saving throw modifier is based off of base save modifier plus Relevant Ability Score(RAS).
C) Your RAS will almost never equal the opposing Wizard's INT. Your base modifier may equal the spell level. Over all, 50/50 shot of failing.
D) Why use Fireball when I can use Dominate Person? Fail the first and you take damage, fail the second and you just lose.


Wizards have to be able to speak (we've seen a lot of gagged characters in the strip), have their hands free and have the necessary materials and equipment in order to cast most spells.

Silent Dimension Door. Stilled, Silent Fireshield.


(your wizard just a soft sack of meat after my fighter in full armor tackles him)

Freedom of Movement(in ring or spell form)


Also wizards rely heavily on their book. a fireball gone ary and they have lost the ability to cast any spells.

Attended items are immune to damage unless directly sundered or the saving throw is critically failed. Alternatively, keep your book in a Force Chest spell or just inside a portable hole/heward's handy haversack/bag of holding.


In another thread, we discussed how a monk can beat up spell casters reatively easily due to many factors like fast speed, high saves, high touch ac, etc. Does that means wizards are weaker than monks? NO.

Correct. Monks are actually ridiculously weaker than wizards.


I know I play fighters much better than any spellcaster.

This I would actually love to see, really.


My question is with all things being equal which is the best. So for example, lvl 20 Wizard v.s Lvl 20 Druid, Paladin, etc. Likewise, lvl 20 Lich v.s lvl 20 non-lich.

Ah. Well. You see that question is basically unanswerable. Why? Because the wizard thrives on making things unequal. A good wizard casts spells that hurt you. A great wizard casts spells that simply make you lose the fight. He targets you poorest save. He looks for that one part of your armor that isn't as strong as the whole. A great wizard aims for Smaug's one missing scale, so to speak.

It's also unanswerable because there's no metric to weigh the Lich wizard against. What about a Phrenic Wizard? Gold Great Wyrm Dragon Wizard? Phrenic Feral Mineral Warrior Wizard? Etc, so on, so forth. (Paragon Wizard? :smallbiggrin:) Either way, the question as is cannot be answered without a clear thing to weigh the Lich against. However, a level 20 Lich Wizard has higher Intelligence than a level 20 human Wizard.

[Killer Angel]

I think this belongs in the gaming forum.


It could be interesting to discuss, in OotS, what are the strong and weak classes, regardless the 3.5 possibilities.
For example, as far as we know, in OotS, the 3.5 Druid is weak in close combat, compared to a cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).
And TWF ranger can be a killing machine.

So the question could be: in which way OotS contradicts the power hierarchy of 3.5?

[petersohn]

Since I'm not a DnD player, and I particularly dislike playing spellcasters in computer games either, I will come up with the examples in this comic.

In small fights, where there is the Order vs. some enemies, it is always V who is the most powerful (except for the Sexy Shoeless, but that's for the sake of the joke, I don't think that halfling rangers would be that overpowered). However, in a large battle, like the battle of Azure City, which lasts for a long time, and involves thousands of enemies, it's not always true. At the beginning, V goes über. But eventually, he runs out of spells and becomes useless, while a fighter's sword still stays sharp. All they need is some healing potions or some clerics nearby.

Also, there are sometimes special situation. For example, in #200, in the storm, who has the only chance hurting Miko? Roy. And the other melee fighter, Belkar is only out because he is grappled by Windstriker.

[Manga Shoggoth]

It should also be noted that, while wizards are the, or close to the, strongest class, and sorcerers are no slouches even considering this, the casters in OotS do not generally act in optimal ways. For example, V likes his fireballs and lightning bolts, and Durkon spends a lot of time healing. This seems to be changing somewhat, but even so, the casters are not, by and large, optimized.

You have a strange view of the words "optimal" and "optimized".

It is not possible to "just" optimise anything. Optimisation is always with respect to a particular goal - even if the goal is left unspoken. For example, in programming optimisation is usually about making programs run faster. However, it can also be about making the best use of a scarce or expensive resource (like minimising network traffic over a slow or unreliable network).

Thus, V may well be optimised for casting fireballs and lightning bolts (and, lest we forget, exploding runes), and Durkon may well be optimised for healing.

[Aharon]

@Zevox
@Spell Slots
Many Wizard Builds include Focused Specialist, AFAIK. They loose one unspecialised slot per level, but gain 2 specialised ones. So they have as many slots as the sorcerer, albeit with lower flexibility. It's still awesome.

@Forbidden War
In a gaming situation, I agree- to a degree. If the DM is very harsh towards the Wizard (harsh interpretation of the "prestige classes and spells known" rule, few scrolls in treasure to add new spells, stolen/damaged spell book often), the wizard might have to invest a feat in spell mastery and will not be as overpowered as normal (But if he knows his DM is that abusive, he might sell his spell book at 1st level for thousands of gp :smallbiggrin:), and it takes longer for him to reach the point where he constantly smacks around the melee classes. The same is true for a DM who plays the gods as pricks who don't grant spells to their followers when they feel like it or a DM who interprets the "you have to know the form you wildshape into" extremely harshly.
But given a DM who doesn't try to diminish the power gap between casters and non-casters in such a way, the casters will win. Always.

@Silverraptor
Wizards can hold their own as low as 5th level. this link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=955379) to the WoTC forum contains an extremely long thread where casters and non-casters have to beat some rather hard encounters solo. Unfortunately, many builds were illegitimate, which at first seems to prove the opinion of the person who started the thread. But those caster builds that were legitimate are able to beat the challenge at level 5. There were 4 caster and 1 non-caster build able to do that. There were later challenges (at level 8, i think), which were even more in favour of the casters.

[ChrisDemilich]

I'd like to defend liches here for a moment. Firstly, assuming you are playing a campaign from low levels, then going lich actually raises your ECL several levels over your fellow players.

Of course, most wizards would be making magic items by this point, so by the time you reach epic levels, your ECL should about equal to your party. Especially after you start boosting your stats with wish, or creating a demiplane to hide your phylactery.

Liches receive excellent bonuses. +2 Int, Wis, Cha. Their Hit dice change to d12's. Sure they lose their con, but what wizard has a high con anyway? Damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Immune to cold, electric, polymorph, and mind affecting attacks. +8 bonus to hide, listen, spot, sense motive, and move silent. Fear aura, Paralyzing touch, Immortality!

From a completely roleplaying perspective, being a lich has every possible incentive. Being immortal, and being able to continue your magical study for as long as you choose.

And at Epic levels, you can become a far superior Demilich. Which breaks the game slightly, but is still awesome.

[Antacid]

Seriously, this should be in the gaming forum, if only so I don't have to resist the temptation to post "AND THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD PLAY 4E" to a thread every time I come here.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You have a strange view of the words "optimal" and "optimized".

It is not possible to "just" optimise anything. Optimisation is always with respect to a particular goal - even if the goal is left unspoken. For example, in programming optimisation is usually about making programs run faster. However, it can also be about making the best use of a scarce or expensive resource (like minimising network traffic over a slow or unreliable network).

Thus, V may well be optimised for casting fireballs and lightning bolts (and, lest we forget, exploding runes), and Durkon may well be optimised for healing.Generally, the unstated goal in D&D is "defeats encounters in the least amount of time and least risk of character death". However, you are correct in that you can optimize for other things. Xykon, for example, is demonstrably a highly optimized damage dealer when he can be bothered.

[averagejoe]

You have a strange view of the words "optimal" and "optimized".

It is not possible to "just" optimise anything. Optimisation is always with respect to a particular goal - even if the goal is left unspoken. For example, in programming optimisation is usually about making programs run faster. However, it can also be about making the best use of a scarce or expensive resource (like minimising network traffic over a slow or unreliable network).

Thus, V may well be optimised for casting fireballs and lightning bolts (and, lest we forget, exploding runes), and Durkon may well be optimised for healing.

Okay, but the purpose of fireballs and lightning bolts is to kill your enemies; however, these things are a suboptimal way to accomplish it. Being optimized for fireballs is, I suppose, a goal, but it's like

An optimized healer is a bit less clear cut, but in terms of winning fights it's still inescapable that there are better things a cleric could be doing, and killing their enemies is better at keeping people alive than healing.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to split hairs, I was just trying to explain to those who don't play DnD why V and Durkon might not seem as strong as this thread is building them up to be.

Edit: Also, what Nerd said was the definition of "optimized" I was working with.

[Roderick_BR]

Wizards of the Coast simply sucks at balance.
Imagine a videogame, where someone tells you "ok, you'll play this guy. You can take more shots before being killed, and your pistol (pea shooter) have unlimited ammo". Then he turns to your friend "here, you can take less damage before dying, but you get this rocket launcher, heavy machine gun, hand grenades, and a bullet proof vest. Yes, the ammunition will run out... eventually. And the bullet proof vest means you can take almost twice as much hits than your friend over there before dying."

Then you two play a level in a map. When you end, they tell you "nice job. here, have a hand grenade". Then they turn to your friend "here's more ammunition, a gatling gan, proximity mines, a radar, and a light tank. And a cookie."

[lord_khaine]

It could be interesting to discuss, in OotS, what are the strong and weak classes, regardless the 3.5 possibilities.
For example, as far as we know, in OotS, the 3.5 Druid is weak in close combat, compared to a cleric.
And TWF ranger can be a killing machine.


ehh, are we reading the same comic? it took about the entire OOTS to subdue a singel Druid and his animal companion.


Seriously, this should be in the gaming forum, if only so I don't have to resist the temptation to post "AND THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD PLAY 4E" to a thread every time I come here.

and then i might be temptet to shout " AND ALL THAT STILL ISNT ENOUGH TO MAKE ME PREFER 4E"

[homeosapiens]

Imho Cleric is the strongest class. They can wear armor (let'z say 20 lv cleric with 16 dex(items), mithrill plate+5, shield+5, natural arm+5, deflect+5(cost 150k+)=10+3+8+5+2+5+5+5=43 armor, ofc it is not impossible to hit, but rather you have to be well optimized fighting char to do that). Cast antimagic field, and you will easyly beat the crap out of wizard, sorc and druid(if they wont roll disjunction, but then you can cast amf again). Cast Repulsion, and you can energy drain a fighter type so hard, he wont be able to beat your AC, or will simply die(they dont have really good will save usually, touch AC with15bab+3dex, shall be easy, you can always use some buffs on your rolls).

Not to mention you have two good saves and you can always heal yourself, ressurect fallen allies, and bla bla bla, do much more good stuff.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Generally, the unstated goal in D&D is "defeats encounters in the least amount of time and least risk of character death". However, you are correct in that you can optimize for other things. Xykon, for example, is demonstrably a highly optimized damage dealer when he can be bothered.

Well said.


Okay, but the purpose of fireballs and lightning bolts is to kill your enemies; however, these things are a suboptimal way to accomplish it. Being optimized for fireballs is, I suppose, a goal, but it's like

An optimized healer is a bit less clear cut, but in terms of winning fights it's still inescapable that there are better things a cleric could be doing, and killing their enemies is better at keeping people alive than healing.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to split hairs, I was just trying to explain to those who don't play DnD why V and Durkon might not seem as strong as this thread is building them up to be.

I think a bit got clipped off the first paragraph...

I suspect the post came across harsher than I intended. I was just trying to point out that V and Durkon might be optimised, just in a different direction to the ones being assumed.

Of course, if they are optimised for anything they probably optimised for storytelling potential. Rich has, of course, demonstrated character builds with other optimisations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)...

Edit: And as someone has already pointed out, To someone at the age of 77-odd, a Lich is optimised for not dying at age. Whatever happened to Potions of Youth?

[Ancalagon]

Wizards of the Coast simply sucks at balance.
Imagine a videogame, where someone tells you "ok, you'll play this guy. You can take more shots before being killed, and your pistol (pea shooter) have unlimited ammo". Then he turns to your friend "here, you can take less damage before dying, but you get this rocket launcher, heavy machine gun, hand grenades, and a bullet proof vest. Yes, the ammunition will run out... eventually. And the bullet proof vest means you can take almost twice as much hits than your friend over there before dying."

Then you two play a level in a map. When you end, they tell you "nice job. here, have a hand grenade". Then they turn to your friend "here's more ammunition, a gatling gan, proximity mines, a radar, and a light tank. And a cookie."

A cool ROLE-playing game does not have to be balanced. In fact, I think the most problematic and un-fun thing in RPGs is that the authors try to balance it as good as possible.
Who cares if some feature is unbalanced? It's up to you if you want to (ab)use or not. You decide what style of play you want and if you want "most power" and if it's only about "killing things" and there's no "social ROLE play" that makes even those with "unbalanced" characters happy, it's your descision. And, if you want that style of play (which is fine), then you'll also play a "balanced" system that way.
Any system of a certain complexity CANNOT be balanced in all aspects. If you focus on those aspects, it really is no surprise you find them.

[Volkov]

To some degree this is true; however, wizards can deal with overwhelmingly more situations than the non-primary casting classes, and can do so with more efficiency and expediency.



A level 20 lich is stronger than a level 20 non-lich; however, I don't think "lich" is the strongest template option. I don't actually know offhand, but there are a lot of templates out there.

However, the strength of DnD classes isn't generally determined by 1v1 fights, it is determined by how well the character can do in a group vs. whatever monsters they might encounter, i.e. how well they do in actual game situations, because such 1v1 fights are rare between PC's.

However, by either metric the wizard is a pretty strong candidate for best.
Vampires may give some better abilities, but at the price of being able to die from a million different things with no saving throw.

[Killer Angel]

ehh, are we reading the same comic? it took about the entire OOTS to subdue a singel Druid and his animal companion.


To subdue him, yes, but to beat him in CC, Durkon was sufficient (6th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html))

[quick_comment]

I disagree with the concept of weaker classes and stronger classes. It's all situational. A wizard with a 6 charisma is probably the worst character to play when you have to convince a king of your innocence. All spellcasters run the risk of being attacked every time they cast a spell. If they are hit, they can lose the spell as well as hit points. Most spell casters have to prepare their spells in advance (12 hours or more in advance). And most spells allow for saving throws, which means half or no damage or effect if the target rolls moderately well. (about 50% of the time, the spells do no damage to rogues and monks, and half damage to everyone else)(your wizards fireball is no good if it doesn't do any damage). Wizards have to be able to speak (we've seen a lot of gagged characters in the strip), have their hands free and have the necessary materials and equipment in order to cast most spells. (your wizard just a soft sack of meat after my fighter in full armor tackles him)
Also wizards rely heavily on their book. a fireball gone ary and they have lost the ability to cast any spells.

In another thread, we discussed how a monk can beat up spell casters reatively easily due to many factors like fast speed, high saves, high touch ac, etc. Does that means wizards are weaker than monks? NO.

It really is situational and depends a lot on how people think. I know I play fighters much better than any spellcaster. Because it is how I react to game situations. I stand a much better chance at surviving in video games playing a barbarian or fighter, than a wizard.

For you, in the hypothetical game you're thinking of, a wizard might be the best choice to play. But it depends on too many factors. How do you think, how do you react, what style of game are you playing in, etc)

All methods of tying up wizards: Negated by a 4th level spell, freedom of movement.

Low cha wizard using diplomacy? Use summon monster and summon an angel or something to do your negotiating for you. Or use eagle's splendor. Or, as mentioned, charm person, dominate person or mindrape.

Your hypothetical fighter in full armor never gets to tackle the wizard. The wizard flies away. Or teleports away. Or shapeshanges into a goddamn titan.


Wizards do it better.

[Duaneyo1]

The correct answer is that it depends. And note this isn’t about which character is the favorite, coolest etc. Just about the power. In 3.5 circles, clerics and druids are widely considered the most powerful, followed by the wizard. A literal reading of Dnd rules gives the clerics and druids access to a large amount of cheese. Thru cleric only equipment and feats a cleric can persist spells like divine power etc. And can use turn undead ability to power some neat abilities. A druid gets the ability to change into any form imaginable while keeping the ability to cast spells. A well designed sorcerer is very close in power to a wizard. Characters with a lot of skills or other spell casters (rogues, barbarians, rangers, bards, warlock and favored soul) would make up the second tier. Fighters, Paladins, Samurai etc. are at the bottom.

[Simanos]

This isn't a card game. It's a role playing game. That said it depends on the DM.

[Dork Lord]

Considering a 27th level Wizard can dole out over 4000 points of damage in a single round if you take the right spells and feats, I'd say the Wizard trumps the other classes easily, but not until higher level. I quit playing my epic Wizard in a TT game because he was just too powerful compared to the rest of the party.

[dps]

ehh, are we reading the same comic? it took about the entire OOTS to subdue a singel Druid and his animal companion.


Actually, it was his plant minions that caused most of the trouble, not the Druid himself or his animal companion.

[PId6]

Imho Cleric is the strongest class. They can wear armor (let'z say 20 lv cleric with 16 dex(items), mithrill plate+5, shield+5, natural arm+5, deflect+5(cost 150k+)=10+3+8+5+2+5+5+5=43 armor, ofc it is not impossible to hit, but rather you have to be well optimized fighting char to do that). Cast antimagic field, and you will easyly beat the crap out of wizard, sorc and druid(if they wont roll disjunction, but then you can cast amf again). Cast Repulsion, and you can energy drain a fighter type so hard, he wont be able to beat your AC, or will simply die(they dont have really good will save usually, touch AC with15bab+3dex, shall be easy, you can always use some buffs on your rolls).

Not to mention you have two good saves and you can always heal yourself, ressurect fallen allies, and bla bla bla, do much more good stuff.
I agree that Clerics are generally better, but your combination is easily beaten by one thing: Fly. As soon as they're in the air, you have no way of getting at them without dismissing AMF. At the same time, he's chucking orbs and summoned creatures at you.

[Shatteredtower]

Actually, it was his plant minions that caused most of the trouble, not the Druid himself or his animal companion.

After the trees were brought down, however, Leeky and Kitty were still holding their own against Durkon, Haley, and Roy. The had to bring V in as well to finally tip the scale, and that was by negating the hawk's defensive spell.

[Omegonthesane]

I agree that Clerics are generally better, but your combination is easily beaten by one thing: Fly. As soon as they're in the air, you have no way of getting at them without dismissing AMF. At the same time, he's chucking orbs and summoned creatures at you.

Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.

[homeosapiens]

Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.
:-)
I see you feel the same way I do.

[PId6]

Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.
You'd have to be pretty close to AMF while in range. Unless you completely surprise him by knowing his exact location and teleporting in without alerting him (but then, that's a pretty unfair situation and the same thing could be done to you) he's not going to be stupid enough to let you do that. And besides, Astral Projection. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Wizards are often regarded at the strongest class and wizards in OotS are often extremely arrogant, seemingly to reflect this.

A lot of this comes from the "wizards can do anything" mentality because there are spells for most things you'd want to do. The problem with this mentality is that wizards cannot prepare every spell and most spells are not cast reactively, so how do you cast a spell to prevent something that already happened to you?? Did you seriously open the fight with something with as narrow application as protection from arrows before you even saw an archer? Or in real dungeons you can get grappled before you get a chance to cast fly, 10 different magic items grant fly, there's not enough room in the dungeon to fly, readied ranged attacks can disrupt your spellcasting just fine and you just forfeited your cover, fly can be dispelled, and 101 other counters that require little or no special preparation. And someone will no doubt post another counter for the wizard, and back and forth until it seems the wizard prepared nothing but spells to counter stuff in the morning, and spent 3-5 rounds of combat casting them while his opponent waits politely. Etc., etc.

In actual play with a group that puts a reasonable limit on munchkinism (obscure tricks from a variety of source books), wizards are cool but they don't dominate as much as people say. Most classes contribute well like they do in OotS and most real games progress without serious balance problems.

[tyckspoon]

Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.

Funny thing about AMF: It's a personal range spell with a mere 10 foot radius. That means you pretty much have to move up to the wizard and then cast it, or cast it and then move (but if he's flying, you've probably just turned off your own means of approaching him by doing so.) If you're not keeping track, that's a Standard and a Move action.. which means for most characters, you've just used up your chances to actually do anything to the wizard, and now it's his turn. So he's in an AMF. The edge of it is a mere 10 feet away. He can *walk out*and instantly be back at full capacity. It takes a fairly specialized build to actually make decent use of an AMF as an offensive tool.

[Optimystik]

Lich, though, isn't generally worth it. When you become a lich, you have to basically put your class advancement on hold for four levels, and while being a lich does have its advantages, none of them are worth as much as four more levels in a spellcasting class.

You forget that Xykon became a lich under the following circumstances:

A) Venerable age (So he didn't have much to lose)
B) Already at epic levels (so he had no more casting progression to worry about except for bonus spells from stats.)

After becoming old and epic, lichdom is a no-brainer for any evil caster I'd say.


SoD:
Even Xykon needed a lean undead body to take down Lirian.

We don't know whether Xykon would have lost that fight had it not been for Lirian's virus. He was buffed and attacked her with minions in tow. One could theorize that she's smart enough to cast Death Ward when fighting a necromancer, but we still don't know how that fight would have turned out.


Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.

And while you're casting AMF... the wizard's thumb is up his component pouch? AMF can be counterspelled. Even if you catch him off-guard, that's what Contingency is for.

[Omegonthesane]

Funny thing about AMF: It's a personal range spell with a mere 10 foot radius. That means you pretty much have to move up to the wizard and then cast it, or cast it and then move (but if he's flying, you've probably just turned off your own means of approaching him by doing so.) If you're not keeping track, that's a Standard and a Move action.. which means for most characters, you've just used up your chances to actually do anything to the wizard, and now it's his turn. So he's in an AMF. The edge of it is a mere 10 feet away. He can *walk out*and instantly be back at full capacity. It takes a fairly specialized build to actually make decent use of an AMF as an offensive tool.

Magic domain. Widen Spell. Now it's a 20 foot field, so Wizard won't be able to escape it and cast in the same turn. Find an appropriate wall so you can sandwich Wizard between it and Cleric, and Cleric L17 should stand a fighting chance against Wizard L20, to say nothing of Wizard L17.


And while you're casting AMF... the wizard's thumb is up his component pouch? AMF can be counterspelled. Even if you catch him off-guard, that's what Contingency is for.

Cleric: Widened Antimagic Field.
Wizard: My contingent teleport triggers!
DM: Your contingent teleport is blocked by the AMF.
The Meatsack Formerly Known As Wizard: Nooooooo!

Also, how many Wizards prepare a spell explicitly designed to geld/neuter/spay/castrate/gimp (delete as per your preference) all Wizards and Sorcerers within its radius?

[Assassin89]

Unless you're a 77-year-old human with not many years left in you...I'm sure at that point becoming a lich seems quite an attractive option. :smallbiggrin:

That is until the marut death squad comes after you.

Also in the comic, Optimization is not important. Look at what happened to the Half-Ogre.

[Roderick_BR]

Except that you can't cast Fly at all, because Cleric used AMF while you were in its range. You thus cease to be a wizard and instead become a puny waste of flesh.

If it's a smart wizard, you'll never get close enough to him. By yards, let along 5ft. He just need to walk out of your AMF, and cast any movement (fly, teleport) in one default action. If he's desperate enough, he'll double move, and use one of his quickened spells, done for this kind of thing. If you tried to teleport, you either are not using your AMF, or still need to wait one round to use it. Either way, wizard flees. You don't even need optimization. Just spells most wizards have in his spell list, without resorting to contingencies.
Now, he goes invisible, mirror imaging, blurring, flying, and with protection from arrows/stone skin. You need to see through invisibility, guess which one of the 5 blurred images are him, not miss due to blur, and find a way to actually reach him, and try to bypass his protections.

And if you take groups in account, if he have a fighter friend, he can hack at you, since a fight against a non-magic-equiped fighter, and a non-magic-equiped nor magically buffed cleric, fighter wins.

[tyckspoon]

Also in the comic, Optimization is not important. Look at what happened to the Half-Ogre.

The one who was cheating, not really optimized (You're a Large creature using a tripping weapon as part of a strategy optimized against humanoid melee attackers. Do you A: make trip attacks, B: make trip attacks, or C: make trip attacks?) and *still* would have killed Roy if it weren't for that conveniently located cliff?

[King of Nowhere]

What I dislike more of wizards is another problem: they have very few spells. After just the first fight they lost a significant part of their capability, while a sorceror (a class I like for that reason) can fight a couple of encounters and still be able to cast every spell from his list.
I mean, by playing sorcerers I became used to think "a crap, I only have 3 fireballs left, plus eventually 2 empowered and one maximized! I'm running out of spells!" while a wizard don't have all this spells not even at the beginning of the day.

So, if your master puts you through one encounter per day, pick a wizard; if you got regularly 2-4 encounters daily, pick a sorceror. If you have more encounters, pick a fighter or a cleric, classes who last much longer (if the cleric fights in melee and uses the spells to buff/heal).

Also, a wizard could be prepared against teoretically any treath, but don't have enough spellslots for that. If caught by surprise, he's very weak.
By comparison, a cleric is very hard to take down. Even if you manage to get him by surprise, you'll have hard time killing him (unless he tanks a saving throw)

Anyway, when they are in a party, different classes give their best: a group of a fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue is better than four wizards, or four rogues, or four fighters (four clerics, I'm not sure).

[Silverraptor]

(four clerics, I'm not sure).

GO TEAM CLERIC!!!:smallbiggrin:

[Omegonthesane]

Be warned: the following post contains lazy "Fixed that for you" tactics for throwing counterarguments at previous posts.


If it's a smart wizard with the kindest and most thoughtful DM who ever existed, you'll never get close enough to him. By yards, let along 5ft.
Fixed that for you, because the DM is in no way obliged to let you have the real game-breaker component spells at all.


He just need to walk out of your AMF, and cast any movement (fly, teleport) in one default action.
This attempt fails, because Wizard gives Cleric an attack of opportunity by running away, which Cleric duly uses to trip Wizard up. Wizard is now prone and in an AMF.


If you tried to teleport, you either are not using your AMF, or still need to wait one round to use it.
Quickened Teleport, AMF. In that order. 94% chance of reaching the location "right next to the wizard" because you are looking straight at him when you do it.


Now, he goes invisible, mirror imaging, blurring, flying, and with protection from arrows/stone skin. You need to see through invisibility, guess which one of the 5 blurred images are him, not miss due to blur, and find a way to actually reach him, and try to bypass his protections.
In 1 round? He has at most 1 contingency, 1 standard action spell and 1 quickened spell to buff with, and then it's Cleric's turn again.


And if you take groups in account, if he have a fighter friend, he can hack at you, since a fight against a non-magic-equiped fighter, and a non-magic-equiped nor magically buffed cleric, fighter wins.
If Wizard has a group, then so does Cleric. Cleric lasts 3 rounds in melee so Assassin can use her Death Attack to instagib Fighter. Or even better, Wizard lasts 3 rounds failing to flee the AMF and then is Death Attacked by Assassin, while Wizard's fighter bodyguard is too busy fighting Cleric's fighter bodyguard.

Or best of all...
Wizard: Tum te tum, I am obliged to spend 8 hours a day not expecting any kind of attack if I don't want to die of sleep deprivation, so tum te tum...
Assassin, who has Bluffed her way into Wizard's party: I've been waiting a long time for this. DEATH ATTACK!
Corpse Formerly Known As Wizard: GUARDS! GUARDS!
Cleric: Teleport. *grabs Assassin* Quickened Teleport. *raises middle finger at Wizard's party*
Player of CFKAW: Hey DM, can I take a level in Dead Wizard of Thay now?

[Swordster]

Everyone who describes a hypothetical wizard vs. anyone seems to be setting it up in a very unbalanced way. "You [a fighter] burst into the wizard's summoning chamber. He is floating in the air, ethereal, pulsing with protective magic. He's readied an action to dominate/disintegrate/imprison you. Just give up and die." Obviously, if a wizard gets a chance to control the battlefield prior to the fight, he wins. But that's true of almost anyone who is properly equipped and played smartly. Put your wizard into a dungeon or a battle, which is far more common. A fighter who wins initiative and puts four arrows in the wizard before he casts may have taken a full 1/3-1/2 of the wizard's HP. A rogue with slippery mind and Dodge is very difficult to affect with most spells. And every round that is spent on fly or stoneskin is a round in which the wizard isn't killing his opponent, while the opponent may be proceeding to perforate the wizard.

That said, in terms of pure power, high-level wizards can do things no other class can compare to, and if they are able to manipulate or prepare the battlefield, they truly are nearly unbeatable.

[Zevox]

My question is with all things being equal which is the best.
As I mentioned before, its quite situational. In general, casters are better than non-casters, but you'd be hard put to come up with a clear-cut winner between Wizards, Clerics, and Druids.

While wizards get the most potent destructive magic, Clerics and Druids have a lot more durability than Wizards, since they have d8 hit dice (the same as Rangers, only one dice-class below Fighters or Paladins) and can wear armor (Clerics can even wear full heavy armor), and their magic is hardly less powerful than a Wizard's once they have access to the full range of spell levels. Clerics also get the best healing spells around and the ability to convert any non-domain spell into a cure spell (if they're good aligned or neutral aligned and chose that), enabling them to withstand far more punishment than any other class. Meanwhile, Druids get more destructive magic than Clerics (albeit less than Wizards) and the ability to Wild Shape, which can make them very physically powerful and durable.

So yeah, simply put, there is no clear "best."

Zevox

[Dork Lord]

One feat makes true spellcasters at epic level (even as soon as level 21) outshine every other class out there (at least in terms of damage output)... Clerics and Druids can take the feat, but arcane casters are truly able to use it to the maximum effect. Improved Spell Capacity. Maximized, Empowered, Irresistible Disintegrate, followed up with a Quickened, Maximized, Empowered, Irresistible Disintegrate will end even most epic fights in a round or two. Add in Time Stop beforehand (or just Temporal Boots which does the same thing, just with a swift action) with a few Delayed Blast Fireballs and a Belt of Battle to get (with another swift action) a whole extra full round action and you've dealt well over 1500 points of damage. Make those spells Intensified and take the Multi Spell feat (one extra Quickened Spell a round) by level 27 and you've dealt in excess of 4000 damage in one round. Show me a Cleric or Druid who can pull that off.

[aje8]

Everyone who describes a hypothetical wizard vs. anyone seems to be setting it up in a very unbalanced way. "You [a fighter] burst into the wizard's summoning chamber. He is floating in the air, ethereal, pulsing with protective magic. He's readied an action to dominate/disintegrate/imprison you. Just give up and die." Obviously, if a wizard gets a chance to control the battlefield prior to the fight, he wins. But that's true of almost anyone who is properly equipped and played smartly. Put your wizard into a dungeon or a battle, which is far more common. A fighter who wins initiative and puts four arrows in the wizard before he casts may have taken a full 1/3-1/2 of the wizard's HP. A rogue with slippery mind and Dodge is very difficult to affect with most spells. And every round that is spent on fly or stoneskin is a round in which the wizard isn't killing his opponent, while the opponent may be proceeding to perforate the wizard.

Um no..You see wizards often take imporved intiative and dex is a reasonably important stat for them....so youill usually win intiative.

Additionally, you literally CAN'T go first against a Wizard... Celerity says hii. Secondly, you seem to ignore Craft Contigency... any good wizard has a billion contigenecies AT ALL TIMES. Thirdly, those rounds he needs to buff himself... he has them. After he contigencies away or uses celerity or wins intivative he casts Time Stop... game over. You lose.

Against the Rogue, your plan doesn't work against any of the best spells. Enervation, Gate in a huge cr dude, Evards Black Tentacles, Gliterrdust, Solid Fog.... or my personal favorite, Reverse Gravity.

Newflash: GOOD SPELLS DON'T ALLOW SAVES!!! Newsflash 2: GOOD WIZARD OPTIMIZE THEIR SAVE DCS! (At 20, save DCs often go well above 30)

The reason Wizard is one of the best clasess is because at lv. 20, combat is about going first. A wizard always goes first, has timestop, has celerity. In Wizard vs. one of the other big 3 it's extremely close and not really worth debating because it's circulair and pointless. (Though I will say that the anti-magic feild plan is ridiculous.... theres no way you can get that close to a wizard.... he doesn't see you walking up to him and Celerity->teleport away because?)

Also, where's the artifacter and archivist love? These classes can and do equal the big 3 and should be mentioned.

[Omegonthesane]

(Though I will say that the anti-magic feild plan is ridiculous.... theres no way you can get that close to a wizard.... he doesn't see you walking up to him and Celerity->teleport away because?)
I already said, you don't walk up to him. Cleric with Travel domain (or Arcane Trickster, in a pinch) casts Quickened Teleport from a very long way away to reach the Wizard, who he is spying on through a scrying pool, then Anti-Magic Field to block all spells including Celerity, then stop the Wizard from running by tripping him up with an Attack of Opportunity caused by him running away, then beat the crap out of him.

This also assumes that your DM allows Celerity. If it's really that powerful, I wouldn't allow it, or even an Epic spell that emulates it.

Bearing in mind this is the third best plan I can think of. The second best involves a rival Wizard armed with Tucker's kobolds, who wears down the target wizard over a period of months by forcing him to cast spells (not hard) and casting Nightmare on him every time he tries to prepare spells. If nothing else, the sleep deprivation penalties will build up. The best plan I could come up with is for an Assassin to Bluff her way into the Wizard's confidence and then Death Attack while he is sleeping.

[Forbiddenwar]

It's interesting reading this thread and so far the sanest people seem to be saying the same thing. It depends on the game that is being played.

It's also good hearing all the spells wizards need to be cool, because wizards can only cast the spells that they have personally encountered, and idenified with a successful spellcraft scheck. The DM, ergo, decides what is in a wizards spellbook and what is not.

It also depends on how the character is played. I have a 1st druid in my group, mentioned as one of the most powerful characters. she prepared speak with animals and talk with animals as her spells for the day. she nearly died by a swarm of zombies. It took a monk to pull her out. If you are good at playing spellcasters, then spellcasters are a good class for you to play. If you're not, practice or play something else that you are good at.

In truth, the best character to play, the most powerful in OOTS and any edition of D&D is the Dungeon Master. But it is also a lot of work.

[Roderick_BR]

A cool ROLE-playing game does not have to be balanced. In fact, I think the most problematic and un-fun thing in RPGs is that the authors try to balance it as good as possible.
Who cares if some feature is unbalanced? It's up to you if you want to (ab)use or not. You decide what style of play you want and if you want "most power" and if it's only about "killing things" and there's no "social ROLE play" that makes even those with "unbalanced" characters happy, it's your descision. And, if you want that style of play (which is fine), then you'll also play a "balanced" system that way.
Any system of a certain complexity CANNOT be balanced in all aspects. If you focus on those aspects, it really is no surprise you find them.

Ah, I roleplay very well, and my gaming group never had problems with optimization. The strongest character in our group was a TWF fighter, and our druid didn't do much more than heal the party, and run to the back lines. And no one cared if there had "better" ways to play.
I'm just pointing out the design flaws. You can pretend they are not there, you can choose not to play a character to it's fullest just to be "nice" to your fellow players ("hmm.... I can cast this ray of absolute killiation, targeting the weak saves of the big boss' henchmen easily, from afar, and impossible to miss..... nah, I'll memory one more improved fireball, and run into attle with my fellow fighter, so he doesn't get out of the battle"). I'm not talking about "optimizing/min-maxing", I'm talking about simply playing a class without effort.
Back in AD&D, your wizards was even squishier and almost useless at first level, and needed more experience points to level up. You had to earn your right to be an all powerful high level wizard, and the others recognized that you was the party's big guy. It came naturally. And it was still hard, as your strongest spells required several rounds to cast, making you pedend on your allies, and you sometimes took DAYS to refill your memorized spell list. And it was really hard to make "combos" with skills, feats, classes, prestige classes, and spells. You couldn't cast 1 spell in the morning, 1 spell one hour before entering the dungeon, 1 spell right before entering the big badie's room, and then cast 2 spells/round as you could now. That death ray you could use to clean the room with the monsters? Took time to cast, took time to re-prepare, many more took expensive/hard to find material components

So, no, my group never was power players, it worked fine before 3.x, no matter our choice of story (we were a heavily RP focused group, thank you).
In 3.x, you need to nerf yourself on purpose, to don't make the game get awkward. That's not being power gamers that don't know how to RP. That's bad game design.

[Swordster]

Um no..You see wizards often take imporved intiative and dex is a reasonably important stat for them....so youill usually win intiative.

Additionally, you literally CAN'T go first against a Wizard... Celerity says hii. Secondly, you seem to ignore Craft Contigency... any good wizard has a billion contigenecies AT ALL TIMES. Thirdly, those rounds he needs to buff himself... he has them. After he contigencies away or uses celerity or wins intivative he casts Time Stop... game over. You lose.

Dex is essential for rogues, and any half-wit rogue has Improved Initiative by 3rd level. And it still comes down to a die roll. Just an example. Point is I'm not convinced that you win initiative every time.

I won't dispute that wizards are more powerful than most classes, or that with time to prepare they are nearly unstoppable at high levels. But all the responses to proposed scenarios seem to assume that the wizard is sitting at the center of a series of wards, with all-powerful senses extending in all directions, and his attackers come charging in unprepared from 120 ft. away.


Though I will say that the anti-magic feild plan is ridiculous.... theres no way you can get that close to a wizard.... he doesn't see you walking up to him and Celerity->teleport away because?

Because not every encounter is an PvP arena-style combat. Scry-teleport, like Omegonthesane said, or distract him with something else, or come while he's sleeping, studying, etc. Unless your wizards do nothing all day but slowly revolve in a circle, looking for attackers, it's possible to get the jump on them.

Please summarize Celerity for me, I'm not familiar with it.

[aje8]

I won't dispute that wizards are more powerful than most classes, or that with time to prepare they are nearly unstoppable at high levels. But all the responses to proposed scenarios seem to assume that the wizard is sitting at the center of a series of wards, with all-powerful senses extending in all directions, and his attackers come charging in unprepared from 120 ft. away.

Let's assume an ambush were the Wizard somehow loses intiative in the middle of a dungeon.......

Celerity BTW is essentially as a Free action you get a round now but are stunned later. If your spell kills them or if your safe by the time your stunned or if you lose that time when you're inside say a TIME STOP then it's irrelvevant. Also, there are many, many ways to become immune to stunning.

Oh yeah, and high level wizards fly 24/7 in any of a million different ways (Phantasmal steed, Overland Flight, ect. ect.)

1) Since the wizard is obviously flying, you move in and in the suprise round say, what was it again? Shoot some arrows? His contigency teleports him way out of range.... say 1000 feet in the air. You may have won intiative but you probably can't reach him this point even with flight..... w/e you do he can contiue without it mattering.

2) Wizard uses a Meta-Magic Rod of Maximize and casts Timestop.... he gets 4 round of rape.

3) Wizard uses his swift action to telport back to you and then hits with reverse gravity. If your flying, he instead hits you with either Disjunction -> Reverse Gravity or just a save DC 30 Flesh to Ice. Repeat for the remaining round of timestop...... during this time the wizard also can cast 4+ quickened spells.... but he doesn't really need them.

4) Assuming you somehow survive the 8 death spells the wizard just threw at you, you attack.... and as you swing the weapon/shoot the arrow the Wizard activates Celerity and Dim-Doors out. Now he can use Time Stop again... but let's say he doesn't. He takes off the metal hat on his head and drops it on you...... then dismisses the shrink item encasing you in a metal dome. Now.... he could port some lava in, put a forcecage over it.... W/e.

Oh and I forgot.... remember that original suprise round you had? No you didn't..... high level wizards go around all day Shapechanged into Tortises which are immune to suprise and always act in the suprise round.... yeah.

Or He could have become a Choker via Shapechange in the timestop to get 2x as many round to kill you (8 Round, 16 spells)

This isn't close.... it's not debatable. If a non-casters power level is 10 then a casters powerlevel is 1000. It's the difference between an ant and a Dragon.

[Forbiddenwar]

Seriously, I'm curious.

What good is flying when the roof is 8 feet off the ground? and the walls are 5 feet apart?

[Forbiddenwar]

This isn't close.... it's not debatable. If a non-casters power level is 10 then a casters powerlevel is 1000. It's the difference between an ant and a Dragon.

I've known ants to kill dragons, just look at SOD.

Any class is over powered when the players cheat.

[BlueWizard]

What? Do I need to clean my ears out?

Unless I hear a priest talking.

Wizards are awesome. Especially all prepared.

[Forbiddenwar]

Sorry, way off track from the question, which is in the OOTS universe is a wizard who is also a lich, the most powerful character combo possible?

Well, if that is the case, then Eugene is right. Roy doesn't have a chance, and the only way to defeat Xykon is with a wizard, preferable a wizard Lich. Which mean Julia will have to get Lichified in order to fulfill her fathers oath. Eww.

[Forbiddenwar]

What? Do I need to clean my ears out?

Unless I hear a priest talking.

Wizards are awesome. Especially all prepared.

Are you hearing things? Shouldn't it be clean your eyes out and writing?

[Berserk Monk]

We don't know whether Xykon would have lost that fight had it not been for Lirian's virus. He was buffed and attacked her with minions in tow. One could theorize that she's smart enough to cast Death Ward when fighting a necromancer, but we still don't know how that fight would have turned out.

Lirian's epic level (Red Cloak said both an arcane and divine caster would have to be over 20th level to make a gate) probably the same as Xykon, not to mention a druid is a walking hybrid of every class that can handle any situation without preparation thanks to a crap load of class features. In my book, a druid verses any other class of the same level, a druid wins.

[King of Nowhere]

You're talking about spamming time stops like they were cookies. Not to mention the epic stuff (someone mentioned like a 20th level spell slot).

Do you have an idea how few wizards make it over level 10?
How much 17th level wizards do you expect to exist in the whole world?
An eigth level character can be considered powerful in his own right.

But let's stay into the highest levels for the sake of argument...
If said wizard can spam time stops like that, I expect his opponent to have the same level of power...

So

Oh yeah, and high level wizards fly 24/7 in any of a million different ways (Phantasmal steed, Overland Flight, ect. ect.)
Also high level fighters can fly, there's tons of magic items granting fly, if not 24/7, at least enough time to fight as much as you want.
So I charge at the wizard


His contigency teleports him way out of range.... say 1000 feet in the air.
I'm curious about how your contingency is worded. I took that you worded "whenever someone attempts an hostle action against me, teleport away". It would be fun to take a bag of triks and summon a mice to attack you, just to make you waste the contingency... but then I would lose the surprise, so on.
It would also be a good idea to have the autority feat, and have some arcane caster cohort who can contribute to cast dimensional anchor on you. Or he could cast dimensional anchor with an item in the surprise round.


You may have won intiative but you probably can't reach him this point even with flight..... w/e you do he can contiue without it mattering.
If I won initiative, I use my helm of teleport or some other item to teleport right next to you and attempt a grapple on you. I'm not sure if it can be done in one round.
The most elegant option would be teleporting over you, and activate an anti magic field in the same round. So we both start falling. While falling you can't control your direction, and can't get away of me, so I can beat the crap out of the wizard and dismiss the field/reactivate fly before reaching the ground.
Otherwise, I may simply teleport away into a place I filled with anti wizard traps, waiting for you to come after me.



3) Wizard uses his swift action to telport back to you and then hits with reverse gravity. If your flying, he instead hits you with either Disjunction -> Reverse Gravity or just a save DC 30 Flesh to Ice. Repeat for the remaining round of timestop...... during this time the wizard also can cast 4+ quickened spells.... but he doesn't really need them.
You may want to reread the description of time stop. You can't target other people during time stop. Not even with area spells. You may buff, and at most cast delayed blast fireball, but an high level fighter can easily get fire immunity. Now, you could be an archmage and use four different delaied fireballs with four different elements, to be sure something hit.

Too many variables, I'm not going on. Anyway, just suppose this is the second fight of the day. For the fighter, this don't matters. The wizard has already expended his most powerful magic, and that will probably tip the balance.
I'm not an expert power player, but expert power players say a fighter-type can stand the field against a caster with the adequate preparation/build and the right items.

[King of Nowhere]

Sorry, way off track from the question, which is in the OOTS universe is a wizard who is also a lich, the most powerful character combo possible?

Well, if that is the case, then Eugene is right. Roy doesn't have a chance, and the only way to defeat Xykon is with a wizard, preferable a wizard Lich. Which mean Julia will have to get Lichified in order to fulfill her fathers oath. Eww.

Humm... Yes, clearly the only way to defeat Xykon is to send against him one single person who is as powerful as him, and hope everything goes right.

O, wait. How about teaming up? Let's say, for example, that a fighter, a cleric, a bard, a rogue, a ranger and a wizard team up against him? Couldn't they stand a chance even if they're all much weaker than him taken individually?

[Dagren]

Humm... Yes, clearly the only way to defeat Xykon is to send against him one single person who is as powerful as him, and hope everything goes right.

O, wait. How about teaming up? Let's say, for example, that a fighter, a cleric, a bard, a rogue, a ranger and a wizard team up against him? Couldn't they stand a chance even if they're all much weaker than him taken individually?Personally, I would say that for some reason Eugene is only thinking of someone soloing Xykon, for whatever reason he isn't considering the party thing. In that scenario, a lich wizard probably does stand a better chance than many other characters, the issue here would be that this is only within that one specific scenario. Does that make sense?

[Omegonthesane]

Let's assume an ambush were the Wizard somehow loses intiative in the middle of a dungeon.......

Celerity BTW is essentially as a Free action you get a round now but are stunned later. If your spell kills them or if your safe by the time your stunned or if you lose that time when you're inside say a TIME STOP then it's irrelvevant. Also, there are many, many ways to become immune to stunning.
IIRC, the spell is specifically worded so you can't be stunned during a time-stop. Mind you, this is really a thread about how broken the game is, not how awesome wizards SHOULD be.

Oh yeah, and high level wizards fly 24/7 in any of a million different ways (Phantasmal steed, Overland Flight, ect. ect.)


1) Since the wizard is obviously flying...
You're assuming the DM is kind enough to give him any Fly spells, or put him in a dungeon where there's a high enough roof to fly.


you move in and in the suprise round say, what was it again? Shoot some arrows?
AMF, actually.



His contigency teleports him way out of range.... say 1000 feet in the air.
First, he doesn't get contingency because he's in an AMF.
Second, you carefully timed your ambush so 1000 feet in the air takes him out of the dungeon entirely, wasting one of his spells.


2) Wizard uses a Meta-Magic Rod of Maximize and casts Timestop.... he gets 4 round of rape.

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
The 5 rounds of buffing time he in fact gets will still probably win it for the universe's most optimised wizzard, but he can't do a single thing to you during his timestop.


3) Wizard uses his swift action to telport back to you and then hits with reverse gravity. If your flying, he instead hits you with either Disjunction -> Reverse Gravity or just a save DC 30 Flesh to Ice. Repeat for the remaining round of timestop...... during this time the wizard also can cast 4+ quickened spells.... but he doesn't really need them.
Wizard loses all actions this round because he cast Celerity.


4) Assuming you somehow survive the 8 death spells the wizard just threw at you, you attack.... and as you swing the weapon/shoot the arrow the Wizard activates Celerity and Dim-Doors out. Now he can use Time Stop again... but let's say he doesn't. He takes off the metal hat on his head and drops it on you...... then dismisses the shrink item encasing you in a metal dome. Now.... he could port some lava in, put a forcecage over it.... W/e.
So the Wizard is willing to blow all his high-level spells on one assassin? Good. In fact, while he's flying and zapping Fighter, I send a flying Assassin behind him to perform a Death Attack.


Oh and I forgot.... remember that original suprise round you had? No you didn't..... high level wizards go around all day Shapechanged into Tortises which are immune to suprise and always act in the suprise round.... yeah.
No they don't, because the DM said dire tortoises don't exist in this campaign world, so the wizard isn't familiar with them.

Or He could have become a Choker via Shapechange in the timestop to get 2x as many round to kill you (8 Round, 16 spells)[/QUOTE]
You're assuming that all high-level wizards never get tired, never slack off, and never have any of their desires denied by the DM. Wizards get like 2 new spells per level if the DM won't let them have more, so frankly, if you can have every spell in the Wizard list then I call on the power of Pun-Pun to unmake Wizard, because "Pun-Pun exists" is no more ridiculous a statement than "All Wizards are 20th level and know all the Wizard spells in the game".

[Juron Pilo]

I personally can't WAIT for a rematch between Roy and Xycon. Surely Roy learned more than "how to disrupt a spellcaster", eh eh?

[Omegonthesane]

I personally can't WAIT for a rematch between Roy and Xycon. Surely Roy learned more than "how to disrupt a spellcaster", eh eh?

How much more does he need?
X: Meteor Sw -
Roy: Disrupt Spell!
Durkon: *BONK*
X: Crap! Meteor -
Roy: Disrupt Spell!
Durkon: *BONK*
X: Crap! Energy Dra -
Roy: Disrupt Spell!
Durkon: *BONK*
X: Crap!
Redcloak: On the plus side he seems to be forfeiting his attacks...

And that's without factoring in 2/3 of the Order.

[Juron Pilo]

You know, you may just have a point. I like your version too.

[Warlord JK]

I would like to point out that Xykon has a point. If you can keep blasting an enemy with a powerful spell (i.e. Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, etc...) they will fall because eventually you are going to fail a fortitude save or will save and die. So in terms of pure combat strength, a sorcerer is strongest. But a sorcerer doesn't have the same level of utility as a wizard does or druid or cleric. So a sorcerer is not as great support class as a wizard, druid, or cleric. But if it's a wizard and sorcer or druid v. sorcer or cleric v. sorcerer, then the sorcerer will probably win just because of the ability to use massive amounts of force repetitively.

[Dark Matter]

How much more does he need?
X: Meteor Sw -
Roy: Disrupt Spell!
...X: Guess what, I cast Overland Flight this morning.

[aje8]

Stuff

The arrow thing was to some1 else.

Facepalm about the timestop thing... I knew that. Your right... within the timestop it's neccasary for the wizard to Gate in a CR 34 and port away instead.

The lack of stunning... I assumed my wizard had a stun-canceler.

No they don't, because the DM said dire tortoises don't exist in this campaign world, so the wizard isn't familiar with them.

Or He could have become a Choker via Shapechange in the timestop to get 2x as many round to kill you (8 Round, 16 spells)
You're assuming that all high-level wizards never get tired, never slack off, and never have any of their desires denied by the DM. Wizards get like 2 new spells per level if the DM won't let them have more, so frankly, if you can have every spell in the Wizard list then I call on the power of Pun-Pun to unmake Wizard, because "Pun-Pun exists" is no more ridiculous a statement than "All Wizards are 20th level and know all the Wizard spells in the game".[/QUOTE]
And your assuming that the fighter gets a sword, feats, and bab. What if my DM bans all that?

You assuming your cleric can prepare spells that don't heal... what if you DM doesn't allow that. Your assuming your cleric gets BAb... what if your DM doesn't allow it...

Oh yeah about that INSET CHARACTER HERE: Don't assume you get actions or feats or saves. At all.

Rule 0 does not make you right. I may be using cheesier tactics but cheesisness is very subjective and thus cannot used to settle these debates.

About the contigency thing...... YOU don't know my contigency... how would you? If we're dealing with scry and die.... then either could scry or die and it's a battle of who does that first.


First, he doesn't get contingency because he's in an AMF.
Second, you carefully timed your ambush so 1000 feet in the air takes him out of the dungeon entirely, wasting one of his spells.
But how are you getting next to me to start with? I could have it a contigency set when anyone approachs me maybe... or I could see you coming and activate my contigency set to trigger upon me saying "Zorbol Pops" or say making the live long and prosper sign with my hands. Porting in.... it's unlikley to work there are many anti-teleporting tactics though it is possible.

The 2v1? I bet I can kill any character you make given 2 as well.... not really relevant. A wizard will likley have plenty of slots for an ambush though..... he doesn't really need many high level ones for day to day life.

Oh and the death attack+Assasin thing: Have you inexplicably forgotten about Contigency?

Anyway.... let's end the debate and stop derailing the thread now. If you'd like to contiue we should make a new thread k?

[JeptCloak]

Not being interested in game mechanics like "will the DM be nice?" or "will the DM give you x spells?" or "how tall is the dungeon roof?", it sounds to me like the answer is Wizards under pretty much all circumtances in terms of an end product character, especially once they start building in permanent powers and contingencies, and magic items, etc.

[Kish]

Not being interested in game mechanics like "will the DM be nice?" or "will the DM give you x spells?" or "how tall is the dungeon roof?", it sounds to me like the answer is
See, this is the problem. Not being interested in those things, the only answer you can really come up with is "unknowable."

[Juron Pilo]

One of the problems is that many support spells are basically game breakers. I mean, any game with Wish, Miracle, and Alter Reality in it is going to be freaking broken. At least unless you have similiar abilities for physical characters. Then there are all those instadeath spells which are basically weaponized utility spells. A status effect spell is no longer a mere status effect WHEN IT FREAKING GAME OVERS YOUR CHARACTER.

[Lufia]

I'm not a D&D player but my understanding of the wizard class is that at high-level they can pretty much wipe out anything, unless it's the end of the day and wasted all their spells messing with dragons, at which point they can be eaten by a wild bunny. :smalltongue:

I abhorred spellcasters in Baldur's Gate 2 (the only D&D related thing I've ever played), the group would need to rest after 2 battles. Tiresome as hell for someone more accustomed to FF, like me.

[Juron Pilo]

Maybe Wizards are more powerful than other classes but as Sir Schmoopy of Awesington(sp?) once said:

"Cool kids roll Sorcs, new kids roll Wizards":smalltongue:

Why? Because early game Sorcs are actually useful, and they stay that way until the end game.

edit: As for Sorc vs Wizard lategame, while Wizards versatility in a party vs mons situation is much better than the Sorcs, a specifically and properly speced sorc would probably win, unless I'm missing something. True, they get limited spells known, but theres probably about just enough of them to take down most wizards if u spec right.

edit: Stupid mistake fixed.

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm not a D&D player but my understanding of the wizard class is that at high-level they can pretty much wipe out anything, unless it's the end of the day and wasted all their spells messing with dragons, at which point they can be eaten by a wild bunny. :smalltongue:

I abhorred spellcasters in Baldur's Gate 2 (the only D&D related thing I've ever played), the group would need to rest after 2 battles. Tiresome as hell for someone more accustomed to FF, like me.

And that doesn't work in D&D, you can only prepare spells ONCE in a 24 hour period.

I still stand by my statement that by far the DM is the strongest Class there is and every will be.

29 epic level wizard:My contingency activates, and I teleport away.
DM: (rolls dice) I'm sorry, but your contingency teleport has landed you in a sphere of annihilation. you don't exist anymore. Reroll as a 1st lvl character.
29 epic level wizard: Crap

[Juron Pilo]

Indeed, being the dm class is like being divine rank infinity.:smalltongue:

edit: Imo if it comes down to power and versality in the same package the most BALANCED classes are Sorc and Cleric, with it being mostly a toss up which is more useful in more situations. Early on the cleric kinda sucks at defending itself-_-' though I suppose that extra armor and basic attack bonus are about as good as a sorcs spells. I'd say clerics healing factor is the differentiating stat here.

[Forbiddenwar]

Funny how many people are using the word "contingencies". The rules of the game forbid more than one. And the materials needed for it are rare and expensive.

I don't think wizards are super powered or overpowered as long as they follow the rules of the game. (That's part of the reason they are there)

[Swordster]

Oh and I forgot.... remember that original suprise round you had? No you didn't..... high level wizards go around all day Shapechanged into Tortises which are immune to suprise and always act in the suprise round.... yeah.

This made me laugh. The image of a tortoise zooming around on Overland Flight...haha...I don't totally agree with you but I like the way you think.

[Milandros]

Wizards can be very flexible and are often extremely deadly if they have time to prepare appropriately.

However, a lot of the wizard examples here seem to have every combination of spells memorised all the time. In general, the problem of playing a wizard (and it's a fun problem) is deciding exactly what you want to be able to cast today. The number of example quickened spells being given by some people here is a little unlikely - wizards will usually take higher level spells then just load up all their top level spell slots with quickened or stilled and silent spells that they might need "just in case".

Also, I'm suprised how many people seem to have never played D&D or created a character at anything other than 20th level. Level 20 wizards are tough, yes, but level 10 wizards, while also tough, are not in any way overpowered compared to the other classes. Try playing your wizard from level one, where you have 4 hit points, can cast two or at most three spells in a day (none of which do more direct damage than a sword) and after that you're a substandard crossbowman. One thing 4th addition has done right is to make sure the wizard always has wizardy things to do.

You'll never see anyone argue that their 10th level wizard, equipped by items found during their adventuring campaign instead of bought from the local megamagimart (which many DMs don't allow) is by far the most powerful member of the party.

The standard "wizards are the toughest" comparison appears to be to start a combat on a large, featureless plane, with the wizard given several free rounds to cast buff spells and activate items but his opponent is assumed not to have any magic items, scrolls or potions. The wizard is then mirror-imaged, greater stoneskinned, greater invisibilitied, mind blanked, etc etc etc and flying, and astonishingly enough, wins.

Let's try a different example. The wizard opens a door - the thirty-seventh today, so he doesn't have enough spells to check behind each one, and any minute-per-level spells he cast at the beginning of the dungeon have worn off by now - so he's unbuffed. He steps into the room inside, and closes the door behind him. It's a 5'x10' room, with a door opposite, which at that moment opens. It's the enemy fighter! Combat begins...
The fighter wins initiative due to his decent DEX and Improved Initiative feat. he takes a 5' step and full attacks. As the wizard is flat-footed and unbuffed, all attacks may very well hit.
Heck, let's make this 20th level for fun. The wizard will have an average of 52 hit points plus maybe some Con bonus - let's say 62-72 hit points (OK, maybe he has 18 CON, but then how good are his INT and DEX, both important to wizards?) Each fighter attack, using a +5 shocking burst greatsword of bane and some power attack on a decent strength stat does, with no fancy feat combos at all, 2d6 + 5 + d10 + 2d6 +(for strength, say) 9 + 20 (power attack x2) + 4 (greater weapon specialisation) = 60 damage per hit. And he gets 4. And that's playing dumb. If he starts with a trip then the wizard is prone plus he gets his free successful trip attack.
If only two of those attacks hit, the wizard is dead, even if he has 18 CON. Note that this fighter is astonishingly unoptimised. It's simple PHB only feats. The only slightly special thing is the weapon he's carrying - and there's plenty of alternate options there for a 20th level weapon.

Maybe a contingency spell kicks in, if the wizard has one set up, on taking serious damage, which might teleport the wizard home if he survived the first attack (i.e. the fighter didn't roll above average). Of course, if it's the "teleport 1000 ft straight up" option then it's quite possible that the wizard will hit the ground before he gets to cast (especially if they're deep underground) or that the now-unconscious wizard will fall to his death.

Now, this is just as contrived a situation as the large empty plane one, but it makes the point that while wizards have many options and are powerful, they're only invincible when they get to set all the terms of the engagement.

Oh, and many people seem to have very, very generous DMs... Cast Charm or Dominate on the king during a negotiation as suggested? At that point the court wizard calls out a warning (even if the king doesn't save and immediately order a response to what he will perceive as an attack) and the king's bodyguard pile in. Maybe the PCs can kill the entire court, assuming that they have enough power, but alignment changes plus the problem of being a known regicide could definitely change the nature of that campaign!

[Juron Pilo]

I quite frankly agree, I've argued the same in the past.

edit: well, but the magical enhanced classes are STILL inherently more well rounded.

Personally, my biggest, final, and most potent complaint against the class system is that it takes alot of power out of the DM's hand. Its harder for the DM to reward Fighters late game than it is Sorcs, although I admit properly set looting will do that but I don't think the game does a good job of that. Same in the reverse for mages.

[Lufia]

And that doesn't work in D&D, you can only prepare spells ONCE in a 24 hour period.
Sorry, what doesn't work?


I still stand by my statement that by far the DM is the strongest Class there is and every will be.
"Hey, what class do you want to play?"
"God." :smallsmile:

[Forbiddenwar]

Oh, and many people seem to have very, very generous DMs... Cast Charm or Dominate on the king during a negotiation as suggested? At that point the court wizard calls out a warning (even if the king doesn't save and immediately order a response to what he will perceive as an attack) and the king's bodyguard pile in. Maybe the PCs can kill the entire court, assuming that they have enough power, but alignment changes plus the problem of being a known regicide could definitely change the nature of that campaign!

Not to mention the spell Charm Person relys on Charisma (which in this example is a score of 6) in order to convince the now friendly king (if the epic level aristocrat failed his will save, har har) to let you go, which he isn't inclined to do.

[Forbiddenwar]

Sorry, what doesn't work?

Resting every 5 minutes to get all your spells back, like in Most Computer games based on D&D



"Hey, what class do you want to play?"
"God." :smallsmile:
Yep. end of argument :D
But even gods at the whim of the DM. A Divine Game, where all the characters are gods, is a fun game to run as well, all the rules are there.

[PId6]

The "large empty plane" is pretty much the best and fairest way to compare the relative power of two classes. Otherwise you have way too many possible situations to make an adequate comparison. In an arena setting, both characters would know of the battle and prepare accordingly only as they would at the start of each day (no buff lasting less than 16 hours). No allies (besides summonings, animal companions, and familiars), and you start at a set distance from each other possibly with one turn of preparation for both sides. And of course, no DM interference; everything is interpreted as RAW.

We are talking about high level wizards because that's the question at hand; since everyone knows 1st level wizards are wimps, no one's trying to argue it one way or the other.

Something that should be considered is that a high level wizard/spellcaster has many buffs that can last throughout an entire day. Thus, no wizard (or cleric for that matter) is ever completely unbuffed.

Read here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589) for a taste of how Wizard can beat melee characters easily.

[Forbiddenwar]

Read here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589) for a taste of how Wizard can beat melee characters easily.

I'm confused by this referenced thread. In order to gate in 2 30 hd half celestrial dragons, the wizard needs to have 60 caster levels (a level 60 wizard?) The caster level of the wizard is only 20. So umm, no? The character sheet of said character has disappeared, so there is no way to determine if their caster level is boosted to 60 through something. And that's only step 2.

[Juron Pilo]

The whole arena argument is flawed because until 4th editions whole Skill Challenge idea there was pretty much NO arena situation in D&D. Traditionally and most commonly the game is played in an adventure setting where players are pitted against MONSTERS. Ergo it is more realistic and less ideal to compare the classes against the uber monster set.

edit: well the uber monster set and high level monsters that can be stacked together at about the CR of the uber monsters.

[Dork Lord]

All I know is that an epic level 27 Wizard that was legitimately created with the rules the system allows for (ie not an ounce of cheating. Cheesing maybe, but nothing that breaks any rules) can pretty much kill anything in one round, provided he wins the initiative... and his init bonus is +10, so winning that init isn't unreasonable. Sure he may have little in terms of HP, but when you can drop anything, (possibly even gods) in one round, I'd say the other classes really don't compare.

Mind you, it was because of how uber the character became that I stopped playing him. It got so that it was no longer fun. He could trash anything the DM threw at us with ridiculous ease, and often the rest of the party didn't get to do anything in combat. My point is that no other class even comes close to dealing the kind of damage a Wizard can at high levels. Sorcerers are even left behind due to their inability to Quicken spells.

[Juron Pilo]

What about spell resistance and immunities?

edit: Staff of Metamagic can grant quicken to a Sorc or so I understand.

[PId6]

I'm confused by this referenced thread. In order to gate in 2 30 hd half celestrial dragons, the wizard needs to have 60 caster levels (a level 60 wizard?) I can't confim the level of the wizard in question because their characher sheet disappeared. And that's only step 2.
I'm not exactly sure about the gate, though there may be an item or interpretation or something that permitted it. You have to admit though, he didn't really need the other dragon (or even both, really). It's level 20 vs level 20, if you check the rest of the thread.


The whole arena argument is flawed because until 4th editions whole Skill Challenge idea there was pretty much NO arena situation in D&D. Traditionally and most commonly the game is played in an adventure setting where players are pitted against MONSTERS. Ergo it is more realistic and less ideal to compare the classes against the uber monster set.
A point, though a wizard is still better in nearly every situation there as well than non-spellcasting classes. Unless you have a DM that sends dozens of encounters at you each day (and even then a wizard can just teleport off to a safe place to rest up if he starts to run out of spells), a wizard is just better.

As for spell resistance/immunity, there's Assay Resistance and plenty of nice conjuration spells that bypass that problem.

[Dork Lord]

Spell Resistance is easily taken care of when you get to add your Intelligence modifier (via a feat) to your caster checks (in addition to +2 from Spell Penetration and +2 from a Robe or Vest of the Archmagi) and your Int modifier is close to +20 (fairly easy for an epic Wizard to obtain assuming you started with an 18). So that's around 27 + 4 + 18 or so = 49 + 1d20 to overcome spell resistance. It's sick, but totally legal. As far as immunities go, when your barrage of Delayed Blast Fireballs are actually sonic balls (via 1 level in Archmage), odds are there's not going to be resistance, and when the bulk of the damage you're dealing is from Irresistable Distintegrate (no saving throw), there is no immunity or resistance to apply to the spell. Again, sick sick sick, but completely legal.

[Juron Pilo]

Agreed.

edit: I still think that if you take the WHOLE SPECTRUM of levels into account then the Sorcerer is best prepared to handle any situation given any level. Early on, you have the accuracy of magic and plenty of spells to counter the fact that your basically doing the same damage as a fighter of the same level with basic weaponry but you have no armor. Later on... well Sorcerers are already considered up there right? Same with clerics who start with decent melee and HEALING, except with much more focus on party situations.

edit: of course theres always Druids, which are just... Druids.:smalltongue:
edit: though a disadvantage of being a Druid might be that its more difficult to escape combat than it is for a Sorc. If your DM is very very mean you could set it up so that NO class could win and then everybody would have to run. Untill level 13 a Druid is ****ED if he has to run(unless I missed another spell like Wind Walk).

[GreatWyrmGold]

(A)Unless you have a quickened charm person ready.

(B)A bound fighter can't fight either.

(A)Since the wizard will be flying and be insubstantial that won't happen.

(C)No, because they'll beat the monk with ease. Speed and saves don't matter at high levels and their touch AC is only high as far as typical touch ACs are concerned which is still much lower than ordinary ACs.

(A)Last but not least: If, against all odds, you manage to slay the wizard you'll discover that you just slaing the projected image of his astral projection while the wizard himself is safely hidden within his own private demiplane.

Bolds added myself.

A: Yes, if they have/use the right spells and are the right level, wizards ROCK. Guess what? They play a version of Russian Roulette in deciding between (say) Fly and Fireball.
B: A gagged fighter can, though. So can one in a Silence area, or an Antimagic Field (his capabilities might be reduced in that last case, but he can still swing a sword. A wizard can't cast a spell in an antimagic field.)
C: Spring Attack. This feat is one all mid-level monks should have, what with their high speed. They get evasion, improved evasion, still mind...
That's all.

[BlueWizard]

Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Ye s!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes! Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Ye s!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!Yes!

[Juron Pilo]

Question: is there any magic or ability or anything that could prevent a Druid from shapechanging? Even if its only preventing FURTHER shapechanging or some other catch.

[PId6]

Question: is there any magic or ability or anything that could prevent a Druid from shapechanging? Even if its only preventing FURTHER shapechanging or some other catch.
I'm pretty sure AMF does.

[Juron Pilo]

Well, yeah there is that but anything ELSE. Like, that wouldn't also hurt Wizards.

Cuz frankly I think houseruling monsters up the spectrum with the ability to halt shapechanging(there could be an improved version that also knocks people out of shapechange) would be smart. A druid might be able to dispell it... once:smallwink:.

[BlueWizard]

A good wizard will look into the future to know what he needs.

[Juron Pilo]

Ahh, so your arguing Divination is the ability to counter AMF. Fair enough as most natural AMF's don't move around alot. I could see a situation where that could be the deciding factor.

[BlueWizard]

Maybe. :smallcool:

[Juron Pilo]

I still posit that Sorcerer is the best all arounder. You'd want to get some divination spells/items(there are magic items that provide divinations right?). A party of Sorcs and Clerics is IMO still the best party if you want to be ready for anything.

[the_tick_rules]

Wizard's are the most versatile arcane class. But Xykon, despite his brute force, is an intelligent combatant. He didn't make it this long by being a dunce. V has the class more D&D players prefer, but that doesn't meant a good sorcerer can't stand up to them.

[Berserk Monk]

I still say any class that needs a book that could easily be stolen, lost, or destroyed to be useful isn't the most powerful class.

[Larspcus2]

The 1 main problem with beating wizards with an antimagic field plan is celerity. Since casting AMF is a standard action (and a wizard will make his spellcraft roll to know what you're casting), he just celerities while you're casting it (legal by
RAW). Then he wins. (And any wizard worth their salt always prepares celerity)


I still say any class that needs a book that could easily be stolen, lost, or destroyed to be useful isn't the most powerful class.

Ah, but my wizards have their spellbooks trapped with no less than three spells, one of which teleports their spellbook to a safe location and another of which gives the wizard a teleport spell. (These spells can be cast during downtime)

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm not exactly sure about the gate, though there may be an item or interpretation or something that permitted it. You have to admit though, he didn't really need the other dragon (or even both, really). It's level 20 vs level 20, if you check the rest of the thread.
.

I checked the rest of the thread, the dragons which could not be gated in is the whole reason why the wizard won. So yes a wizard can win any battle not conducted under 3.5 rules.

"One of my dragons spent its entire attack routine at Power Attack -10, Improved Sundering that damned Rod. It destroyed it utterly. It was the Fighter's only weapon (go figure) so he was fubar'd. I then cast Maze. Game over."

So dragons gone (someone didn't read the spell description of Gate) so battle different possibly lost.

[Juron Pilo]

There was some disconnect in your claim but its got a fallacy in it anyways. You say most people prefer Wizards? That doesn't make them the best. A Wizard or Sorcerer can both cast the spells Greese, but a Wizard only has one 1st level spell at... 1st level. They woln't prepare greese because otherwise they can't attack with anything but orb spells-_-'. Until level 3 a Wizard is severely undercut by a Sorcerer. Now, you can argue that the lack of Quicken hurts Sorcerers later in the game and massively cuts into their utility, but its very simple to just give them an item that grants them quicken or a quickened spell.
Metamagic, Quicken

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat.

Strong (no school); CL 17th; Craft Rod, Quicken Spell; Price 35,000 gp (lesser), 75,500 gp (normal), 170,000 gp (greater).

Thats in the Srd, and covers pretty much the only Major flaw in a party of Sorcerers, so by SRD guidelines only, the Sorcerer is the most prepared class in all ways excluding the healing abilities of a Cleric.

[tyckspoon]

I still say any class that needs a book that could easily be stolen, lost, or destroyed to be useful isn't the most powerful class.

Lost, stolen, or destroyed, perhaps.. but easily? Frankly, it should be easier to kill the wizard than to effectively deprive him of his spellbooks. (Yes, books. Any half-way intelligent wizard makes at least one copy of his primary spellbook and keeps it stored away somewhere safe and easily accessible to him.) His actual traveling spellbook is probably (depending on level) made with adamantine covers, locked with the best lock he can find or get somebody to make (also made of adamantine), stored as a cloth-form Shrunk Item in the false bottom of a small chest or other container which itself is Arcane Locked (one of the few useful applications of that spell.) And for good measure both the book and the container are treated with Obscure Object. And then maybe that whole assembly is stored in some random meaningless bit of the Ethereal Plane by way of the Secret Chest spell.

'course, all of that requires resources that aren't really available to a low-level wizard. But if you're going to permanently remove the spellbook of a low level wizard, you may as well just kill him; it'll be about the same thing.



The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat.

Strong (no school); CL 17th; Craft Rod, Quicken Spell; Price 35,000 gp (lesser), 75,500 gp (normal), 170,000 gp (greater).

Thats in the Srd, and covers pretty much the only Major flaw in a party of Sorcerers, so by SRD guidelines only, the Sorcerer is the most prepared class in al

Metamagic Rods do not solve the Sorcerer's problem- "A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses." The rods work exactly as if the caster was using the feat himself, which means spontaneous casters still have to suck up the increased casting time and the inability to Quicken things.

Sorcerers are not the best prepared, IMO. They're a hammer class (re: the proverb 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.) because of the strict limit on spells known. They can have a variety of hammers, and they can have carefully chosen multi-function hammers.. but in the end, they're still hammers. It doesn't make up for not having the actual right tool. Wizards can change the tools they use entirely. Both a Wizard and a Sorcerer can encounter a situation where none of the spells they have are useful. So maybe the party has to back off and try something different if none of the other group members can help either. The next day? The Sorcerer *still* won't have anything useful and cannot have anything useful. The Wizard gets to poke through his book and find out if he does have something useful. [Excepting stored magic such as wands and scrolls, as both Sorcs and Wizards can use those equally.. although the Wizard still gets superior access to those by getting Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.]

[PId6]

I checked the rest of the thread, the dragons which could not be gated in is the whole reason why the wizard won. So yes a wizard can win any battle not conducted under 3.5 rules.
One of the dragons was enough to sunder the rod; the other one didn't do much. He has enough HD to control one of the dragons anyway. Besides, the character sheet was down so we don't know whether he has some item or whatnot to allow the extra dragon.

[Juron Pilo]

Actually, it occurs to me that Sorcerer's lategame situation is in some ways as insidiously weak as the Wizards early game situation. Well almost. See the whole Metamagic Wand thing? It forces you to sacrifice your ability to move if you want to keep your versality, as Sorcs take full round actions when using Metamagic effects. The reason that isn't a bad thing? Teleport.

[Forbiddenwar]

Lost, stolen, or destroyed, perhaps.. but easily? Frankly, it should be easier to kill the wizard than to effectively deprive him of his spellbooks. (Yes, books. Any half-way intelligent wizard makes at least one copy of his primary spellbook and keeps it stored away somewhere safe and easily accessible to him.)

considering the staggering expense to write each spell in each book, OUCH. we're talking 20-30 thousand gold each.

[Forbiddenwar]

One of the dragons was enough to sunder the rod; the other one didn't do much. He has enough HD to control one of the dragons anyway. Besides, the character sheet was down so we don't know whether he has some item or whatnot to allow the extra dragon.

actually he admits later in the thread that he doesn't have anything that would allow for control of 2 dragons. and that 1 should be enough.

I wish we could still see the builds becuase it sounds like, by comments in the rest of the thread:

The fighter was built by someone who never played a fighter before.

The wizard had a LOT more money than the fighter.

The wizard had a LOT more experience than the fighter.

[tyckspoon]

considering the staggering expense to write each spell in each book, OUCH. we're talking 20-30 thousand gold each.

Blessed Books. Costs 12,500 (6,250 to make yourself/pay for the party crafter to do it), negates the scribing cost. Since you're copying from your own book, you don't have access fees either. 1000 pages worth of spells, saves a lot of money.

[Werewindlefr]

Unless you have a quickened charm person ready.

Even still and silent, unless wizards are extremely rare and thus unheard of, this is a recipe for being killed by the guard in the next round - if they don't find a better torment for you such as binding your soul to the John for eternity. You don't "charm person" the king unless you're in a position of power.

A skill check is still the way to go here. Safer.

[Ramidel]

Class comparisons? Eh. I haven't played a single-classed character since 2e. ^_^ Though for a -single class character-, I'd say the Druidzilla is best.

[Juron Pilo]

I dunno. What if, for whatevers sake, you need to escape battle early on in the game?

Edit: Actually, now that I look more closely the Druid has one skill that tips the balance waaaaay back in his favor: Trackless step. Although ideally, you can't use that to help the rest of the party very often, but still its a great coward's move.

Edit: Disregard that edit. There are spells that can immitate Trackless step.

[Lamech]

Wizards can be very flexible and are often extremely deadly if they have time to prepare appropriately.

However, a lot of the wizard examples here seem to have every combination of spells memorised all the time. In general, the problem of playing a wizard (and it's a fun problem) is deciding exactly what you want to be able to cast today. The number of example quickened spells being given by some people here is a little unlikely - wizards will usually take higher level spells then just load up all their top level spell slots with quickened or stilled and silent spells that they might need "just in case".

Also, I'm suprised how many people seem to have never played D&D or created a character at anything other than 20th level. Level 20 wizards are tough, yes, but level 10 wizards, while also tough, are not in any way overpowered compared to the other classes. Try playing your wizard from level one, where you have 4 hit points, can cast two or at most three spells in a day (none of which do more direct damage than a sword) and after that you're a substandard crossbowman. One thing 4th addition has done right is to make sure the wizard always has wizardy things to do.

You'll never see anyone argue that their 10th level wizard, equipped by items found during their adventuring campaign instead of bought from the local megamagimart (which many DMs don't allow) is by far the most powerful member of the party.

The standard "wizards are the toughest" comparison appears to be to start a combat on a large, featureless plane, with the wizard given several free rounds to cast buff spells and activate items but his opponent is assumed not to have any magic items, scrolls or potions. The wizard is then mirror-imaged, greater stoneskinned, greater invisibilitied, mind blanked, etc etc etc and flying, and astonishingly enough, wins.

Let's try a different example. The wizard opens a door - the thirty-seventh today, so he doesn't have enough spells to check behind each one, and any minute-per-level spells he cast at the beginning of the dungeon have worn off by now - so he's unbuffed. He steps into the room inside, and closes the door behind him. It's a 5'x10' room, with a door opposite, which at that moment opens. It's the enemy fighter! Combat begins...
The fighter wins initiative due to his decent DEX and Improved Initiative feat. he takes a 5' step and full attacks. As the wizard is flat-footed and unbuffed, all attacks may very well hit.
Heck, let's make this 20th level for fun.<snippity>
Winning initive? How? The fighter would need a magic toy to win most of the time. All because of this little gem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm). (Initiative is a dex check, and it happens to be opposed.) Even if the wiz has ten to iniative more your chance of beating him is uner 15% And you would have to beat the familiar if the wizard took levels in loremaster. Loremaster gives UMD and guess whose skill ranks familars use? A forcecage scroll or a limited wish is a "don't save just lose".

Oh and their is always contact outer plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm). Great spell. Somehow wizards thought it was a good idea to have a spell that would require the DM to see into the future. You can ask questions like "How many doors will I go through today before I encounter something dangerous?"

P.S. I totally agree with the wizards being much less overpowering at lower levels.

[Juron Pilo]

Well, I'm also suggesting that Sorcerer's are equal if not better than Wizards at high levels if and only if the Sorc is Anti-Wizard, they're fighting mobs, or their in a group with other Sorcerers that compensate for their difficiencies. With a bit of time and some help from the Gurus around here, I can probably come up with a full spell list for answering anything and everything that comes your way. Of course, all this assumes that quicken metamagic rods are available in the campaign or whatever.

[Omegonthesane]

X: Guess what, I cast Overland Flight this morning.
There's a few magic items that can get around that, apparently. It's not unreasonable that Roy could buy some.


The lack of stunning... I assumed my wizard had a stun-canceler.
Can you legally post the exact wording of Celerity? It sounds like the kind of spell that should have an explicit no-blocking-stun restriction.


And your assuming that the fighter gets a sword, feats, and bab. What if my DM bans all that?

You assuming your cleric can prepare spells that don't heal... what if you DM doesn't allow that. Your assuming your cleric gets BAb... what if your DM doesn't allow it...

Oh yeah about that INSET CHARACTER HERE: Don't assume you get actions or feats or saves. At all.

Rule 0 does not make you right. I may be using cheesier tactics but cheesisness is very subjective and thus cannot used to settle these debates.
The point that I was making was, Rule 0 is the only way that wizards win so easily. By RAW, they get only 2 usable spells each time they level up, for a hard cap of about 43 spells at level 20, of which a vast number will be of too low a level to be useful in the kind of combat used to say "wizzards arr broken".


About the contigency thing...... YOU don't know my contigency... how would you? If we're dealing with scry and die.... then either could scry or die and it's a battle of who does that first.
I don't know your contingency, no. But if it's in an AMF, it doesn't happen, and if I've already triggered it that day, it doesn't happen. Your expensive and costly means of emergency self-protection is foiled simply by attacking you again in the same day.


But how are you getting next to me to start with? I could have it a contigency set when anyone approachs me maybe... or I could see you coming and activate my contigency set to trigger upon me saying "Zorbol Pops" or say making the live long and prosper sign with my hands. Porting in.... it's unlikley to work there are many anti-teleporting tactics though it is possible.
Oh no, alas and alack, I must attack you twice in a day so that you have already used your only-ever-one-active-at-a-time contingency when I come with all guns blazing.

[JeptCloak]

Perhaps I am naive in the gaming aspects, but all things being equal (say, lvl 20 Druid v lvl 20 Wizard), with a fair fight (I don't want to get into whether the wizard has used foresight or whatever), say opposite each other on an empty field, or with any sort of notice whatever, can't the Wizard just cast Prismatic Sphere and Overland Flight (assuming they haven't already) and the fight is over? I mean, what exactly will a druid/cleric do to a prismatic sphere, which isn't even effected by an AMF, and which is effectively impossible for them to bypass. While they are trying to do this, the Wizard is free to rain down all manner of deadly spells with glee...

Am I missing something?

[Omegonthesane]

Perhaps I am naive in the gaming aspects, but all things being equal (say, lvl 20 Druid v lvl 20 Wizard), with a fair fight (I don't want to get into whether the wizard has used foresight or whatever), say opposite each other on an empty field, or with any sort of notice whatever, can't the Wizard just cast Prismatic Sphere and Overland Flight (assuming they haven't already) and the fight is over? I mean, what exactly will a druid/cleric do to a prismatic sphere, which isn't even effected by an AMF, and which is effectively impossible for them to bypass. While they are trying to do this, the Wizard is free to rain down all manner of deadly spells with glee...

Am I missing something?

Yeah, you are. By RAW, it looks like the Wizard can't throw things OUT of the sphere any more than you can throw them INTO the sphere.
Because linking is easier than quoting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm)

[Juron Pilo]

Magic domain Cleric could disjunction the sphere anyways.

[JeptCloak]

Magic domain Cleric could disjunction the sphere anyways.

Okay, so the Wizard has the sphere on, then casts all manner of buffs etc while the Cleric/Druid helplessly tries to dijoin the sphere (very low chance at lvl 20). If they succeed, Wizard does it again. At that point the Wizard can gate a couple of smaller creatures into the sphere with them, lift the sphere once appropriately invulnerable, and proceed to gate in more creatures of bigger size, and/or destroy the Cleric/Druid with magic. Given the Wizard has spells, etc, to win initiative, let alone foresight, etc, it seems like the Druid/Cleric is boned in a direct fight, and boned in terms of overall usefulness.

[Juron Pilo]

Either you think the Wizard's Sphere is somehow like Antimagic Field and dampens disjuction or you think that Disjuction has a save and it doesn't except against items.

[JeptCloak]

Either you think the Wizard's Sphere is somehow like Antimagic Field and dampens disjuction or you think that Disjuction has a save and it doesn't except against items.

So disjunction always works except against stuff like AMF? K

Only Magic domain clerics get that, right? What does a Druid or non Magic Domain Cleric do?

[Juron Pilo]

Couldn't a Fighter just dump a ****ton of points into Crafting magical/alchemical items and just make himself an Antimagic item, mooting every strategy used so far?

edit: Oh right... no magic item crafting feats.

Well see, thats just another thing missing from this stupid game. First they have nothing that allows you to shut down shapechange and now they have no magic item creation feats. Which would REALLY help balance things, because of the aformentioned AMF to equipment trick, fighters could actually be redeemed by instilling enchantments and buffs on their weapons and armor manually. Mage's disjuction should really have a higher chance of success if that were implimented though.

edit: as to answer your question... not sure yet havn't thought of anything.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Couldn't a Fighter just dump a ****ton of points into Crafting magical/alchemical items and just make himself an Antimagic item, mooting every strategy used so far?

edit: Oh right... no magic item crafting feats.

Well see, thats just another thing missing from this stupid game. First they have nothing that allows you to shut down shapechange and now they have no magic item creation feats. Which would REALLY help balance things, because of the aformentioned AMF to equipment trick, fighters could actually be redeemed by instilling enchantments and buffs on their weapons and armor manually. Mage's disjuction should really have a higher chance of success if that were implimented though.

edit: as to answer your question... not sure yet havn't thought of anything.


No magic item creation feats? What happened to "Craft magic arms and armor", "create wonderous item", etc?

Even if a fighter took those, he wouldn't be able to make anything, because those feats require you to know spells to make stuff. For example, IIRC you need to know haste to create boots of speed.

Interestingly enough, in 4th edition a fighter with the correct feats and skills actually could make magic items (as well as summoning planar portals and raising the dead).

[Juron Pilo]

My bad, those are listed under feats. Sorry. Still, have your mage friend make one for you, or pay someone to make it.

edit: Better still, could you or could you not just use the relevant magic items immitating the required spells instead of the actual spells to meet the requirements? Nothing strictly says you have to actually have the the spell MEMORIZED just that you have to have the spell. I'd houserule that it would destroy the items in the process though.

edit: I think I just completely broke the metagame.

Its official: Fighters are the new Wizards.:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

So disjunction always works except against stuff like AMF? K

Only Magic domain clerics get that, right? What does a Druid or non Magic Domain Cleric do?

Disjucntion can dispel any magic effect with a check of 1d20 + caster level (up to 20) against a cde of 10+level of the guy casting the spell you want to dispel. So, if you're both the same level, it's an even chance.
In addition, disjunction can suppress an anti magic field, but it only has a 1% chance per level.

Anyway, if the wizard uses prismatic sphere to cast buffs, I see no reason the cleric should not use the time to do the same. Clerics have really good protection spells.

[Juron Pilo]

Yeah, and Wind Walk would counter Flight(too short) or overland flight(too slow).

[ZeroNumerous]

The point that I was making was, Rule 0 is the only way that wizards win so easily. By RAW, they get only 2 usable spells each time they level up, for a hard cap of about 43 spells at level 20, of which a vast number will be of too low a level to be useful in the kind of combat used to say "wizzards arr broken".

The PHB mentions being able to scribe spells from other wizard's spellbooks at a cost. Wizards are able to scribe spells they learn from scrolls into their spellbooks at a cost. By RAW, you are wrong.


Your expensive and costly means of emergency self-protection is foiled simply by attacking you again in the same day.

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. I'm sorry, but your attempt to attack me twice fails.


Oh no, alas and alack, I must attack you twice in a day so that you have already used your only-ever-one-active-at-a-time contingency when I come with all guns blazing.

Craft Contingent Spell. I'm sorry, but I have at least 9001 contingencies active at all time. :smalltongue:


Better still, could you or could you not just use the relevant magic items immitating the required spells instead of the actual spells to meet the requirements? Nothing strictly says you have to actually have the the spell MEMORIZED just that you have to have the spell. I'd houserule that it would destroy the items in the process though.

Congrats. You spent money and feats to learn the ability to.. spend money and XP? Simply put: It's more cost effective to buy the item you want to make(or have a caster make it for you) rather than buy an item to duplicate the spell of the item you want to make.

[Juron Pilo]

Assuming its available? Who's to say anyone sells this stuff? Do they seriously offer Antimagic armor in stores, and if so why isn't it valid to use that in the first place?

edit: Craft contingent spell isn't in the SRD so I'm going to assume thats now RAW.

[Omegonthesane]

The PHB mentions being able to scribe spells from other wizard's spellbooks at a cost. Wizards are able to scribe spells they learn from scrolls into their spellbooks at a cost. By RAW, you are wrong.
By RAW, if the wizard never sees a spellbook or scroll in his life, he can never add it to his own spellbook, so he cannot be guaranteed to be Batman. Furthermore, the DM and only the DM is allowed to grant the Wizard scrolls and books; if DM doesn't exist, then the lone Wizard has only 43 spells.


Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. I'm sorry, but your attempt to attack me twice fails.
If I'm working alone, maybe.
Round 1:
Exdeath the Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight (for variety's sake): Quickened Teleport! Antima -
Squishy the Wizard: Contingent Teleport! Boy, I hope they don't scry and die me again, because I have about a hundred other things I have to do today and I can't prepare spells for another 23 hours.
Round 2:
Boris the Cleric: Quickened Teleport! Antimagic Field!
Squishy the Wizard: Uh-oh. Move Action!
Boris the Cleric: Trip Attack of Opportunity!
Squishy the Wizard: Boop.


Craft Contingent Spell. I'm sorry, but I have at least 9001 contingencies active at all time. :smalltongue:
Which book has that in? I only have access to the SRD. Could you post the exact description?

[Juron Pilo]

Man, this whole thing makes me wish FF had a full range of Metamagic style spells like they do for quicken. Using the spells could make you use another spells with the additional effects... or something. I suppose with the absolute upper bounds for damage it wouldn't work out very well but oh well. I suppose you could increase the damage limit to 99999 or just remove it completely for Maximization

[Omegonthesane]

Scenario where Exdeath and Boris kill Squishy the Wizard

But let's give Squishy some credit. Say he escapes Exdeath and gets into his Magnificent Mansion. Hell, say he even manages to Mind Blank himself. Exdeath and Boris hook up again, and EITHER:

Boris: Oh great [Insert deity here], who art [insert favourable description] and who didst [insert great act of deity], I humbly beseech thee, dispel all effects that might prevent me from scrying on Squishy the Wizard or casting mind-affecting spells upon him. MIRACLE!

OR

Exdeath: I hereby command the very universe itself to strip from Squishy the Wizard any and all forms of magical or mundane protection he possesses that might prevent him from being scried upon, or which might block a mind-affecting spell. WISH!

Then after that, Exdeath casts Rope Trick, and hides in the resulting chamber with Boris so he can cast Nightmare on Squishy, preventing Squishy from preparing any spells. They each perform at least one Scry-and-Die attack on Squishy every day, and cast Nightmare on him every night, until at last he is dead.

The dynamic duo come back home to celebrate their victory, but...
Barman: Exdeath and Boris, I see. The two of you had purchased three beers on credit when you left this town on your epic quest to kill Squishy the Wizard. Accounting for interest and inflation, you now owe me 11 billion platinum pieces.
Exdeath: BOOP! Boop booping boop! FINGER OF -
Boris: *BONK so Exdeath doesn't cast Finger of Death* What the hell happened to the economy while we were away?!

[ZeroNumerous]

By RAW, if the wizard never sees a spellbook or scroll in his life, he can never add it to his own spellbook, so he cannot be guaranteed to be Batman. Furthermore, the DM and only the DM is allowed to grant the Wizard scrolls and books; if DM doesn't exist, then the lone Wizard has only 43 spells.

By RAW, the fighter can be never allowed a weapon. By RAW, dunking your head under water resets your HP to 0 and thus you can revive the dead with just a rusty bucket. By RAW, there are no rules for sleeping outside the Sleep spell. I could go on, but to put it simply: RAW is not infallible. To unreasonably deny a player access to content that is in the PHB is ridiculously moronic.


Big long pointless thing

Alright, since you're so fond of the argument: By RAW, clerics aren't allowed to have spells the DM doesn't give them. Further, since you don't actually read the description of any spell stated here: Mage's(originally Mordenkainen's) Magnificient Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm). So not only can you not Teleport into it, you cannot Plane Shift into nor force the door open unless the Wizard allows you in. Essentially, it's the spell that sneers in the general direction of Scry-and-Die tactics.

Which book has that in? I only have access to the SRD. Could you post the exact description?[/QUOTE]

Complete Arcane. No I cannot because it's not covered under the OGL. It functions as per Contingent Spell except it uses magic item crafting rules instead.


Assuming its available? Who's to say anyone sells this stuff? Do they seriously offer Antimagic armor in stores, and if so why isn't it valid to use that in the first place?

I don't understand the question, but I assume you mean in the case of crafting things. I don't know, you'd have to have DM fiat to get armor or an item to cast Antimagic Field for you. Presumably, you would be able to buy this item instead of being forced to craft it.


Statement using Wish or Miracle to silly effects

Again, since you're fond of the argument, by RAW neither of these spells can produce those effects. By RAW, the DM is not required to allow PCs access to this spell. Finally, you're assuming that the wizard doesn't have a Contingent Mind Blank which goes up whenever his old Mind Blank is dispelled. You're also assuming he fails his Will Save. And naturally Scry-and-Die tactics fail against Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

[Lufia]

My point on page 3 kinda was that wizards are broken only if you let them be. If the DM consistently puts the party through 12 encounters per day, the reasonable thing for the wizard would be to smooth out his dishing of instant-death spells. If by 8:30am you already casted a good chunk of your high level buffs and destructive spells, what's left at 6:00pm? Magic Missile?


Man, this whole thing makes me wish FF had a full range of Metamagic style spells like they do for quicken. Using the spells could make you use another spells with the additional effects... or something. I suppose with the absolute upper bounds for damage it wouldn't work out very well but oh well. I suppose you could increase the damage limit to 99999 or just remove it completely for Maximization
Only thing I can think of are abilities like "black magic x2" in some games, you can cast 2 spells in one round. And then, isn't Fire 3 already some kind of "Maximised Fire 1", in essence? Besides, damage cap or not, you still get instant death or banishment spells in FF. But they always work so much better when it's the enemy casting them...

[Aharon]

People, this discussion is available in 1001 variations over at the wizards boards.

But still, I'm bored, so my input again :smallbiggrin:

@Dire Tortoise
A vain wizard might choose to shapechange in the slightly more acceptable minotaur, which has a similar, though less potent advantage (only never flatfooted instead of automatic own surprise round), but is in the MM1 and might be accepted by more DMs.

@Gating in two dragons
The caster in the example used two gate spells, one for each dragon.


In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.

His caster level was sufficient because he used an orange ioun stone and somethin else to heighten his caster level.

@All
I stand by the opinion that given an impartial DM, the wizard is more likely to win.
There was the 1v1 example linked to earlier (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589)), there was my example of the low level challenge, in which casters also did very well (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=955379)).

@Omegonthesane
No sane wizard of higher than 5th level will be effected by your nightmare tactic.
Please note that Nightmare has range: unlimited, which at first sounds good, but isn't actually unlimited - it's limited to the plane you're on. At 5th, the wizard starts sleeping in an extended rope trick every night (well, in my game, they do, but that's because I'm a cruel DM who uses random encounters by night sometimes to bother them before they reach 5th level.).
Admittedly, if your cleric has plane shift and Eschew materials, he could shift into the wizards rope trick, but at the time he gets plane shift, the wizard gets lesser planar binding and could, for example, bind 7 azers to hang out with him every night.

Also note that neither elves (grey elves for +2 int, on the long term suboptimal, might be worth it in a low level campaign) nor living constructs (suboptimal AFAIK) nor undead (necropolitan, great for necromancers) nor outsiders (some prestige class results in you being one, I think) need to sleep, and thus aren't subject to nightmare.

If you are interested in continuing this discussion, I would propose that you set terms (which level, which point buy is used, how much gold, how many companions), we each build a character, and then compare them.
This won't be any definitive answer to the question whether wizards are better or not, but I've never done that before, and I think it could be fun.

[Juron Pilo]

...
By SRD: Antimagic Armor

This +1 negating full plate armor of invulnerability is crafted of adamantine (and thus has damage reduction 3/-). The armor provides a -5 penalty on dispel checks made against it or its wearer.

Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, greater dispel magic, stoneskin, wish or miracle; Market Price: 871,500 gp; Cost to Create: 436,500 gp + 18,700 XP.

[Juron Pilo]

'kay, any level you feel comfortable with at all so long as my fighter gets his Antimagic armor.

[Kornaki]

Ok, level 20... you have antimagic armor... and a debt of 100k. Good luck

[Juron Pilo]

Very well. I move toward you, then I attack with a basic unenhanced mundane sword.

Then I repeat the process every round after.

[King of Nowhere]

But let's give Squishy some credit. Say he escapes Exdeath and gets into his Magnificent Mansion. Hell, say he even manages to Mind Blank himself. Exdeath and Boris hook up again, and EITHER:

Boris: Oh great [Insert deity here], who art [insert favourable description] and who didst [insert great act of deity], I humbly beseech thee, dispel all effects that might prevent me from scrying on Squishy the Wizard or casting mind-affecting spells upon him. MIRACLE!

OR

Exdeath: I hereby command the very universe itself to strip from Squishy the Wizard any and all forms of magical or mundane protection he possesses that might prevent him from being scried upon, or which might block a mind-affecting spell. WISH!

Then after that, Exdeath casts Rope Trick, and hides in the resulting chamber with Boris so he can cast Nightmare on Squishy, preventing Squishy from preparing any spells. They each perform at least one Scry-and-Die attack on Squishy every day, and cast Nightmare on him every night, until at last he is dead.

The dynamic duo come back home to celebrate their victory, but...
Barman: Exdeath and Boris, I see. The two of you had purchased three beers on credit when you left this town on your epic quest to kill Squishy the Wizard. Accounting for interest and inflation, you now owe me 11 billion platinum pieces.
Exdeath: BOOP! Boop booping boop! FINGER OF -
Boris: *BONK so Exdeath doesn't cast Finger of Death* What the hell happened to the economy while we were away?!

The invocations were nice, but why waste 5000 xp when reveal location is described to bypass every for of divination fooling short of direct intervention of a deity?



you're assuming that the wizard doesn't have a Contingent Mind Blank which goes up whenever his old Mind Blank is dispelled
Mind blank requires 500 gp in material components. You'll have hard times casting it on you every day. Casting it twice per day...
Unless they changed it from 3.0 (the version I know)


By RAW, dunking your head under water resets your HP to 0 and thus you can revive the dead with just a rusty bucket.
That was great! I can see the oots trying it with Roy...

[Omegonthesane]

Ok, level 20... you have antimagic armor... and a debt of 100k. Good luck
So he has to kill a few dragons before slaying the wizard. Fair enough.

As for the quest to kill Squishy... how does this spell do?

Screw You Wizard
DC 96
Seed: Contact (DC 23); Seed: Slay (DC 25), +80 HD slain (+8), +20 to target's save (+40).

This spell requires one (1) living creature anywhere in the Multiverse, who the caster is familiar with, to make a Fortitude save of DC 40 + relevant modifiers. If this save is passed, the target takes 3d6+20 damage; if not, the target dies, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Alternately....

Screw You Lich
DC 113
Seed: Contact (DC 23); Seed: Heal (DC 25); Seed: Destroy (DC 29), +20 to target's save (+40). Mitigating factors: reduce damage dice to d4 (-4).

This spell is designed to kill any one undead creature anywhere in the Multiverse who the caster is familiar with. It Heals them, thereby cutting their HP to d4, and then inflicts 20d4 of direct damage to them. The target receives a Fortitude saving throw to cancel the Heal effect and take half damage from the destruction effect; this save is DC 40 + relevant modifiers.

[Omegonthesane]

The invocations were nice, but why waste 5000 xp when reveal location is described to bypass every for of divination fooling short of direct intervention of a deity?
Because I'm a non-player, and that spell isn't on SRD. Waa.


Mind blank requires 500 gp in material components. You'll have hard times casting it on you every day. Casting it twice per day...
Unless they changed it from 3.0 (the version I know)
They did change it, it now requires no material component.
That said, the Contingent Mind Blank theory fails to understand the context of that attack on Mind Blank - namely, Exdeath & Boris, Wizard Killers Extraordinaire, only attempt it after they've already failed twice to scry-and-die Squishy that day.

[Milandros]

Winning initive? How? The fighter would need a magic toy to win most of the time. All because of this little gem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm). (Initiative is a dex check, and it happens to be opposed.) Even if the wiz has ten to iniative more your chance of beating him is uner 15% And you would have to beat the familiar if the wizard took levels in loremaster. Loremaster gives UMD and guess whose skill ranks familars use? A forcecage scroll or a limited wish is a "don't save just lose".

Oh and their is always contact outer plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm). Great spell. Somehow wizards thought it was a good idea to have a spell that would require the DM to see into the future. You can ask questions like "How many doors will I go through today before I encounter something dangerous?"

P.S. I totally agree with the wizards being much less overpowering at lower levels.


Again, this assumes total knowledge of everything that the wizard will encounter and when. This wizard just happens to have spent one of his rare 8th level spell slots and kept it running until this point. He happens to have asked exactly the right question with his divination, and he didn't run into a threat an hour earlier which would have blown it all. Again, the point that I was making is that situation can make all the difference. Just changing all the situational effects back so that the wizard gets the advantage is only reinforcing my point. Let's make this the third encounter of he day for both the fighter and the wizard and see how that changes things...


Another thing to consider is magic items. In all these examples the wizard seems to have exactly the right kind of items, presumeably because the DM allows anyone to pop out and buy a "+3 large-sized unholy burst glaive-guisarme of greater insectoid bane on Tuesdays" from any old handcart, innkeeper or ye olde magikke shoppe. But the fighter can also buy all the items he wishes, and he has the same budget. Yes, the wizard can craft items, but now he's lower level than fighter due to the XP costs. A properly equipped fighter can also fly, be invisible, see invisibility, move rapidly, be ethereal, etc etc.


Wizards are by far the most flexible class - which, if they get the chance to use their flexibility in a given situation, can allow them to be devastating - but this doesn't mean that they are automatically the superkiller auto "I-Win!" cannot-lose megasupreme characters that some people claim they are. Particularly not during the third or fourth encounter of the day.

[SmartAlec]

As for the quest to kill Squishy... how does this spell do?

Is there any possible way that the wizard will know this is coming?

If there is no concievable way the wizard will be able to do something before the spell hits, it'll be great. If not, the wizard could always throw up Spell Turning, which would be hilarious.

"Screw You Wizard!" *dies*

[Juron Pilo]

I don't even need any more equipment. I use my high dex and the Spell Casting Harrier epic feat. Assuming that I can reach the caster in one turn, he's as good as dead.

edit:
Well, I suppose I might be forced to at least buy a sword if you summon something.

edit2: actually I don't get that until next level, so I guess you can still flee.

edit the third: Back to killing Squishy, I'm gonna have to side with Squishy on this one, You could just make a Search check at DC 60.

[JeptCloak]

I don't even play the game, and I know "I'll put on my anti-magic armour and charge" is a ridiculous strategy for someone who can fly, shapeshift, move into other dimensions, predict what you're about to do, ensure they attack first (and second, and depending on time stop and other spells 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc), and summon creatures who not only have spellcasting powers, but who will be completely unaffected by a mere sword and anti-magic armour.

Honestly, it seems like a wilful desire to ignore what is being said.

I think the most telling point is almost every one of the scenarios being suggested all seem to involve using items that were made by wizards!. I mean really, if that doesn't tell you who the most powerful class is in the OOTS world, I don't know what does... btw, how long does Miracle take? What are the chances they can successfully do that before the Wizard has cast alot of other spells preparing for them?

[Juron Pilo]

But all of those spell casting powers are MOOT before antimagic armor. Unless you know something I don't know:-P.

At 21st level, you woln't even get to fly away.

[Juron Pilo]

Ok. Fine what exactly do you summon because I'll create something to match it using only exotic materials like cold iron/adamantium instead of magical equipment.

edit: woops double post.

[Snake-Aes]

Oh and their is always contact outer plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ContactOtherPlane.htm). Great spell. Somehow wizards thought it was a good idea to have a spell that would require the DM to see into the future. You can ask questions like "How many doors will I go through today before I encounter something dangerous?"

P.S. I totally agree with the wizards being much less overpowering at lower levels.
Funny spell, isn't it? Contact other plane. Answers are single-worded, take a while to get, do *not* predict the future, beings capable of the better answers are more likely to zap your brain...

[JeptCloak]

But all of those spell casting powers are MOOT before antimagic armor. Unless you know something I don't know:-P.

At 21st level, you woln't even get to fly away.

I think this has been covered. Yeh, if the guy with AMF/AMA has the wizard within the set radius cornered, and none of his safety measures have worked to prevent that happening (or knowing the danger, then avoiding it), then sure, he's boned. I just think the fact you've needed to construct such a ludicrously unlikely scenario shows the anwer is pretty much what I had thought. Sure, a butterfly can create a hurricane. I just don't assume it will.

Many, many different methods for finished product wizards will stop finished product druid/cleric/fighter attacks suggested. You're assuming the Druid/Cleric/Fighter is optimised, but the Wizard has been too foolish to prepare for any such circumstance.

[Juron Pilo]

Here's an intereseting question: is a vorpal sword magic or mundane? Maybe its the badass normal of swords? Either way, so far you've moved me up to a plane Vorpal sword. How much more is that gonna cost me?

edit: First of all, you're assuming I'm assuming anything. I'm geniunely interested in the outcome of this match either way. I'm just starting at what I need and adding stuff as you counter my attacks. Its a perfectly valid strategy in this duel.

[Snake-Aes]

I think this has been covered. Yeh, if the guy with AMF/AMA has the wizard within the set radius cornered, and none of his safety measures have worked to prevent that happening (or knowing the danger, then avoiding it), then sure, he's boned. I just think the fact you've needed to construct such a ludicrously unlikely scenario shows the anwer is pretty much what I had thought. Sure, a butterfly can create a hurricane. I just don't assume it will.

Many, many different methods for finished product wizards will stop finished product druid/cleric/fighter attacks suggested. You're assuming the Druid/Cleric/Fighter is optimised, but the Wizard has been too foolish to prepare for any such circumstance.To be sincere, if you allow the wizard all the preparation everyone that says "Go wiz" give them, their foes might as well be very capable of doing just that.



Also, some questioned the presence of magic items. Non-casters *must* have them, otherwise you simply won't have similar standings of power. It is expected to have them as the levels rise, the fact that "wizards made" half of them is irrelevant to the combat prowess of the class that everyone keeps talking about.

[JeptCloak]

I neither know nor care. Explanations were given as to your scenarios earlier, and I didn't see an answer from you.

The point of the thread is which class is the most powerful. The answer seems to be a firm reiteration of my original hunch. I am uninterested in whether you can find a scenario whereby you pull off an upset. The fact that you need one shows it's an upset, and hence answers the question of the thread.

[JeptCloak]

To be sincere, if you allow the wizard all the preparation everyone that says "Go wiz" give them, their foes might as well be very capable of doing just that.



Also, some questioned the presence of magic items. Non-casters *must* have them, otherwise you simply won't have similar standings of power. It is expected to have them as the levels rise, the fact that "wizards made" half of them is irrelevant to the combat prowess of the class that everyone keeps talking about.

As I understand it, Wizards at high level usual cast buffs at the beginning of each day, or at intervals, anyway (eg, overland flight). Things like that, protecting their spellbook, having contingencies, etc, are pretty standard for them. On the other hand, all sorts of non-standard things need to be given to their opponents, and then it has to be assumed the Wizard isn't playing sensibly, for them to lose. It sort of answers the point of the thread.

[Juron Pilo]

Huuuuuuh first of all its in the SRD so thats about as standard as it gets. Even if I can't find one I can buy the component items from high level but still pretty standard shops. From there I can craft it.

Fine then. Take away all my items. Set us at 21. But I'm in range, I still have a higher dex than you, and I'm STILL going to use the spellcasting harrier feat.

You're just whining that I took all the bluster out of your precious Wizard.

[JeptCloak]

Huuuuuuh first of all its in the SRD so thats about as standard as it gets. Even if I can't find one I can buy the component items from high level but still pretty standard shops. From there I can craft it.

Fine then. Take away all my items. Set us at 21. But I'm in range, I still have a higher dex than you, and I'm STILL going to use the spellcasting harrier feat.

You're just whining that I took all the bluster out of your precious Wizard.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I'm pretty sure all these scenario fights where you pull out an AMF or some such were already dealt with.

[JeptCloak]

All I know is that an epic level 27 Wizard that was legitimately created with the rules the system allows for (ie not an ounce of cheating. Cheesing maybe, but nothing that breaks any rules) can pretty much kill anything in one round, provided he wins the initiative... and his init bonus is +10, so winning that init isn't unreasonable. Sure he may have little in terms of HP, but when you can drop anything, (possibly even gods) in one round, I'd say the other classes really don't compare.

Mind you, it was because of how uber the character became that I stopped playing him. It got so that it was no longer fun. He could trash anything the DM threw at us with ridiculous ease, and often the rest of the party didn't get to do anything in combat. My point is that no other class even comes close to dealing the kind of damage a Wizard can at high levels. Sorcerers are even left behind due to their inability to Quicken spells.

For reference, one of the many examples in the thread. there are alot more... perhaps you should read them?

[Juron Pilo]

Only in a previous argument many many moons ago.

Whats your point? I'm not even arguing the best class is Fighter.
I reasoned some time back that the most versatile, party oriented classes are in fact Sorcerers and Clerics, and any party of those two classes is inherently superior to a party of any other classes. Given that this scenario is most common, Sorcs and Clerics are infinitely superior to other classes. The only real hole in that is Druids.

[Snake-Aes]

As I understand it, Wizards at high level usual cast buffs at the beginning of each day, or at intervals, anyway (eg, overland flight). Things like that, protecting their spellbook, having contingencies, etc, are pretty standard for them. On the other hand, all sorts of non-standard things need to be given to their opponents, and then it has to be assumed the Wizard isn't playing sensibly, for them to lose. It sort of answers the point of the thread.

What do you define as "non-standard"? Most samples people give so far are about well-planned battles, where they both know what is going to be thrown at them. In such a case, I believe a wiz-killer setup is the sensible thing to expect.

I just find the whole situation too unrealistic, even for a fantasy's standard. Having wards constantly up? Yes. Knowing beforehand every single step of the enemy? Hard. Expectable at some extent. How many wards can he keep on himself without burning spell slots? Contingency alone means 2 spells less you'll cast that day. What happens, then, if you play other classes to their strenghts? I could make a grapple/disarm(which of these?) to snatch your Ivory You, and that's bye bye to your contingency. How many spells will the caster keep prepared with, say, silent + still features? Expect any kind of melee that connects to him to grapple him as soon as he can. Expect him to be at least resistant, if not immune, to the more popular types of energy, expect him to dish out respectable damage. Like one of the previous examples, all it takes is a good full attack to chop off half of a buffed wizard's hit points, and if he's really gonna devote enough spells to anti-melee metamagic, what can, really, he do?

When you add other factors like Standing Power and the good usage of class features like, say, the element of surprise for a rogue, or even the usage of similar wards that the wizard has, if antimagic doesn't work. Potions and scrolls aren't there for nothing.
Heck, a tanglefoot bag already means a 5% risk of failed casting every spell for a few rounds.
Also, counters for most wards can be used. Adamantine Weapons kill stoneskin outright, for example.



For the sake of curiosity, what could be possibly made? As in all possible preparations a wizard has knowing someone is going to come get her, and what would be left of her spells available, and what each of them would be. I just don't see as realistic any of the setups of prepared wizards people here used so far.

[Juron Pilo]

The Wizards best bet would be to hire minions or mercenaries, or get the boop out of there.

Cancellation

This dreaded rod is a bane to magic items, for its touch drains an item of all magical properties. The item touched must make a DC 23 Will save to prevent the rod from draining it. If a creature is holding it at the time, then the item can use the holder’s Will save bonus in place of its own if the holder’s is better. In such cases, contact is made by making a melee touch attack roll. Upon draining an item, the rod itself becomes brittle and cannot be used again. Drained items are only restorable by wish or miracle. (If a sphere of annihilation and a rod of cancellation negate each other, nothing can restore either of them.)

Strong abjuration; CL 17th; Craft Rod, mage’s disjunction; Price 11,000 gp.

Wouldn't a rod of cancellation answer the armor though?

[JeptCloak]

What do you define as "non-standard"? Most samples people give so far are about well-planned battles, where they both know what is going to be thrown at them. In such a case, I believe a wiz-killer setup is the sensible thing to expect.

I just find the whole situation too unrealistic, even for a fantasy's standard. Having wards constantly up? Yes. Knowing beforehand every single step of the enemy? Hard. Expectable at some extent. How many wards can he keep on himself without burning spell slots? Contingency alone means 2 spells less you'll cast that day. What happens, then, if you play other classes to their strenghts? I could make a grapple/disarm(which of these?) to snatch your Ivory You, and that's bye bye to your contingency. How many spells will the caster keep prepared with, say, silent + still features? Expect any kind of melee that connects to him to grapple him as soon as he can. Expect him to be at least resistant, if not immune, to the more popular types of energy, expect him to dish out respectable damage. Like one of the previous examples, all it takes is a good full attack to chop off half of a buffed wizard's hit points, and if he's really gonna devote enough spells to anti-melee metamagic, what can, really, he do?

When you add other factors like Standing Power and the good usage of class features like, say, the element of surprise for a rogue, or even the usage of similar wards that the wizard has, if antimagic doesn't work. Potions and scrolls aren't there for nothing.
Heck, a tanglefoot bag already means a 5% risk of failed casting every spell for a few rounds.
Also, counters for most wards can be used. Adamantine Weapons kill stoneskin outright, for example.



For the sake of curiosity, what could be possibly made? As in all possible preparations a wizard has knowing someone is going to come get her, and what would be left of her spells available, and what each of them would be. I just don't see as realistic any of the setups of prepared wizards people here used so far.

It's a game, I'm not sure how much realism is meant to come into it. People here being able to say that they use such standard things indicates it is realistic for the purposes of a game that is by it's nature unrealistic. I think a number of arguments have already bee advanced as to the superiority of wizards, including links to lengthly threads about it. I don't understand why you need me to requote to you stuff that was explained at enough length that even a non-player like me could follow it.

The Wizard will likely win initiative, they will likely have contingencies, items, etc, they will likely know the attack is coming, and be walking around with spells that protect them from being found, etc. when the fight does eventually happen they not only attack first, but can deal absurd damage, and don't even need to fight themselves. All that and a whole lot more made it obvious who would win.

I posed a question earlier. Excepting Magic Domain Clerics for a moment, just what will your standard druid/cleric/fighter, etc, do when the wizard wins initiative for reasons alluded to many times already, and then casts say prismatic sphere. The wizard then sits safely in their sphere buffing, gates in a few modestly sized celestial creatures, and then if they want they can teleport to another plane or make themselves etheral or whatever while the other character waits for them, able to do little more than twiddle thumbs and add a few buffs (which will be ok, but nothing on what the Wizard can do). When the sphere goes down, assuming the wizard hasn't moved to another plane of existence or something, the other fighter is immediately hit by an unknown number of spammed delayed blast attacks, attacked by a few celestial creatures, and has to try and hurt a nearly invulnerable wizard.

[Milandros]

I don't even play the game, and I know "I'll put on my anti-magic armour and charge" is a ridiculous strategy for someone who can fly, shapeshift, move into other dimensions, predict what you're about to do, ensure they attack first (and second, and depending on time stop and other spells 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc), and summon creatures who not only have spellcasting powers, but who will be completely unaffected by a mere sword and anti-magic armour.

Honestly, it seems like a wilful desire to ignore what is being said.

I think the most telling point is almost every one of the scenarios being suggested all seem to involve using items that were made by wizards!. I mean really, if that doesn't tell you who the most powerful class is in the OOTS world, I don't know what does... btw, how long does Miracle take? What are the chances they can successfully do that before the Wizard has cast alot of other spells preparing for them?

Well, I do play, and have done for multiple decades.

Honestly, if you just want a cheering section to go "Wizards! Whoooo!" then say so.

Yes a wizard can "fly, shapeshift, move into other dimensions, predict what you're about to do, ensure they attack first (and second, and depending on time stop and other spells 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc), and summon creatures " ... but so can clerics, pretty much, and druids.

Plus, while they are working their way through that huge list of spells, they're being chopped into snailbait. Of course wizards are the most powerful when given ages to prepare in advance! Except, of course, that a cleric who's had ten turns to cast buffs, summon allies, buff them too, put up defences, go ethereal, etc etc etc is just as strong. Heck, even using the cheezy anti-magic field approach, a cleric who can't cast proceeds, using his decent attacks, weapons and full plate armour to pulverise the mage.

As for magic items, yes some of them are made by wizards, but some are made by sorcerors, clerics, druids and artificers too.

It's situational. Yes, wizards have a lot of good, powerful options at high levels, more so than any other class except for psion, cleric and druid, but there are still circumstances where other classes can shine.

Wizards with a good spell book are supremely flexible, and that makes them deadly. A wizard who is optimised for a massive battle against hundreds of low-level foes will obliterate an army. A wizard set up to battle a white dragon will have a huge advantage. A wizard set up for a one-on-one duel with a fighter to occur in the arena at 2pm is pretty much unbeatable. However, a wizard ambushed by a prepared rogue at 6 in the morning just after he sits down and starts to study his spellbook is quite probably toast.

[Juron Pilo]

If you're so insistant that the Magic Armour route has already been tried then PLEASE tell me why a mage would win initiate on the FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT against a Fighter. A quote of what you are talking about please?

Also I know its a bit up there but read my post about a rod of cancelation.

You didn't even try=/.

[Snake-Aes]

It's a game, I'm not sure how much realism is meant to come into it. People here being able to say that they use such standard things indicates it is realistic for the purposes of a game that is by it's nature unrealistic.
Let me correct myself then: Internally Consistent. Verisimilitude is important if you want happy players.

I think a number of arguments have already bee advanced as to the superiority of wizards, including links to lengthly threads about it. I don't understand why you need me to requote to you stuff that was explained at enough length that even a non-player like me could follow it.

The Wizard will likely win initiative, they will likely have contingencies, items, etc, they will likely know the attack is coming, and be walking around with spells that protect them from being found, etc. when the fight does eventually happen they not only attack first, but can deal absurd damage, and don't even need to fight themselves. All that and a whole lot more made it obvious who would win.

I posed a question earlier. Excepting Magic Domain Clerics for a moment, just what will your standard druid/cleric/fighter, etc, do when the wizard wins initiative for reasons alluded to many times already, and then casts say prismatic sphere. The wizard then sits safely in their sphere buffing, gates in a few modestly sized celestial creatures, and then if they want they can teleport to another plane or make themselves etheral or whatever while the other character waits for them, able to do little more than twiddle thumbs and add a few buffs (which will be ok, but nothing on what the Wizard can do). When the sphere goes down, assuming the wizard hasn't moved to another plane of existence or something, the other fighter is immediately hit by an unknown number of spammed delayed blast attacks, attacked by a few celestial creatures, and has to try and hurt a nearly invulnerable wizard. What gives them surefire initiative? All I saw was "reasonably high dex" and "improved initiative", which is standard for pretty much all players.
Also, no one came up with a wiz-killer build so far, while every wiz build was "I know what you are and will optimize against you". That's not "fair ground" for this comparison, if such comparison is even possible.

[JeptCloak]

Well, I do play, and have done for multiple decades.

Honestly, if you just want a cheering section to go "Wizards! Whoooo!" then say so.

Yes a wizard can "fly, shapeshift, move into other dimensions, predict what you're about to do, ensure they attack first (and second, and depending on time stop and other spells 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc), and summon creatures " ... but so can clerics, pretty much, and druids.

Plus, while they are working their way through that huge list of spells, they're being chopped into snailbait. Of course wizards are the most powerful when given ages to prepare in advance! Except, of course, that a cleric who's had ten turns to cast buffs, summon allies, buff them too, put up defences, go ethereal, etc etc etc is just as strong. Heck, even using the cheezy anti-magic field approach, a cleric who can't cast proceeds, using his decent attacks, weapons and full plate armour to pulverise the mage.

As for magic items, yes some of them are made by wizards, but some are made by sorcerors, clerics, druids and artificers too.

It's situational. Yes, wizards have a lot of good, powerful options at high levels, more so than any other class except for psion, cleric and druid, but there are still circumstances where other classes can shine.

Wizards with a good spell book are supremely flexible, and that makes them deadly. A wizard who is optimised for a massive battle against hundreds of low-level foes will obliterate an army. A wizard set up to battle a white dragon will have a huge advantage. A wizard set up for a one-on-one duel with a fighter to occur in the arena at 2pm is pretty much unbeatable. However, a wizard ambushed by a prepared rogue at 6 in the morning just after he sits down and starts to study his spellbook is quite probably toast.

Yes, because the Epic wizard, or lvl 20, or whatever, is living someplace a rogue can find them, not in say a magically guarded dungeon/tower, or a mansion in another dimension before they read their spells that morning. They just go to the local Inn and leave their book on the shelf and hope no assassins try to get them...

[Ancalagon]

However, a wizard ambushed by a prepared rogue at 6 in the morning just after he sits down and starts to study his spellbook is quite probably toast.

You forget the fighter who has a duel @2pm tomorrow and a rogue-buddy who just stole the wizard's spellbook... oops. Toast.

Even a sorcerer would be more powerful (and they can use scrolls as well!).

Not to mention that 90% of the mages do not make it beyond 10th level and therefore do not have access to the really cool and fancy things (also... always keep in mind: Your wizard only lives to see high levels because your DM does not want you whining at him for the remaning session and the following year!)

[Juron Pilo]

Neither is a one on one player vs player match.

You are MISSING THE POINT. The whole "Kill the Wizard" idea NATURALLY assumes an arena style combat, and arena style combat allows you to prepare ahead for your opponent. There is nothing unfair about that for the Wizard.

[JeptCloak]

If you're so insistant that the Magic Armour route has already been tried then PLEASE tell me why a mage would win initiate on the FIRST ROUND OF COMBAT against a Fighter. A quote of what you are talking about please?

Also I know its a bit up there but read my post about a rod of cancelation.

You didn't even try=/.

You assumedly mean the point about the rod that you edited in, which wasn't there when I posted a reply? I dont understand what it is relevant to.

Why does the fighter lose initiative? Um, because a finished product wizard has all manner of spells which will tell them in advance what's coming, and which grant them not only initiative, but the fact they have contingencies to get out of there before a finished product fighter can get close enough for their armour to work. In the case of contingency maybe teleport a thousand feet in the air? From there they've already cast overland flight assumedly (Wizards walk around with standard buffs at high end), and the Wizard begins the process of ending the fighter for good. Or teleports to their mansion or wherever, since you'll probably have some lame post about how the fighter (apparently expecting the contingency) has teleport and flight boots that let him instantly catch the wizard before he cooks the fighters goose.

[Juron Pilo]

You clearly didn't read the original description for the Arena scenario. We are very intentionally discounting buffs.

edit: My point you nulltard is that he could use the rod of cancelation on the antimagic armor. He's sacrifice a round to do it though.

[JeptCloak]

Neither is a one on one player vs player match.

You are MISSING THE POINT. The whole "Kill the Wizard" idea NATURALLY assumes an arena style combat, and arena style combat allows you to prepare ahead for your opponent. There is nothing unfair about that for the Wizard.

I don't really understand what you're arguing anymore. I am literally asking which class is the most powerful, which pretty much implies 1 on 1. Of course, other stuff is relevant to, but asking which one is generally going to win a 1 on 1 fight seems fairly important. I'm not asking who can pick a lock in an anti-magic field here.

I haven't assumed the Wizard has prepared for the specific opponent they have, just that they have the standard defences and preps a high level end product wizard has.

[Milandros]

The Wizard will likely win initiative, they will likely have contingencies, items, etc, they will likely know the attack is coming, and be walking around with spells that protect them from being found, etc. when the fight does eventually happen they not only attack first, but can deal absurd damage, and don't even need to fight themselves. All that and a whole lot more made it obvious who would win.


Send in a distraction first, use up all those pre-prepared spells and contingencies, then make your real attack an hour later.

Or, don't be the first encounter of the day.

Besides, with all those high-level contingencies, protections, divinations and so on cast, how many high-level spell slots does this wizard have left? All his 8th and 9th level spells seem to be full, according to the spells used as examples, with stilled and silent and/or quickened spells just in case they get grappled or tripped or suprised or whatever. In other words, they don't have meteor swarm, they have a quickened fifth level spell instead.

Don't forget, to *probably* win initiative *once*, in *one* encounter, the wizard has to sacrifice one of his 4 8th level spell slots. That contingency costs 1500 gp every time the spell is renewed or used. And so on, and so on. Not to mention the time spent every morning memorising and then casting all these buffs (and the need to provide somewhere safe to sleep at night with the buffs worn off), or the need to get 8 hours of undisturbed rest every night to keep all those buffs ready to cast in the morning.

Hey, there's another tactic for dealing with the wizard. Make lots of noise all night, send summoned enemies to attack him (heck, even a few goblins will wake him up), don't let him sleep. All those dozen of buffs he casts every morning won't be renewed, all he'll have is empty spell slots.


It's also not a ridiculous strategy to use anti-magic to deal with wizards compared to the wizard spending time and resources every morning just in case he bumps into an enemy in the corridor and needs to win initiative.

[JeptCloak]

You clearly didn't read the original description for the Arena scenario. We are very intentionally discounting buffs.

edit: My point you nulltard is that he could use the rod of cancelation on the antimagic armor. He's sacrifice a round to do it though.

If you want to be literal like that, maybe the Fighter should start out without any weapons or armour. He has to first spend a few turns putting them on. The whole point of who is more powerful assumes they've got their standard abilities, weapons, etc. The wizard walking around with buffs, contingencies, etc, is standard at end level. You're being silly. Even if it wasn't, at 100 feet from the Fighter in an arena the Wizard won't have to worry about the fighter getting near him anyway.

Take the example of the fighter you have been using recently. They start off at say 100 paces in an arena. Before the fighter can do anything the wizard casts prismatic sphere. Fight ends.

[Juron Pilo]

In a scrictly one on one scenario with both combatants otherwise equal?

Truth to tell, we havn't even looked at the cleric with healing spells. A wiz/sorc could probably use an instant death spell in that scenario and win, but maybe the Cleric can get out of it with a buff, shield, or(if its allowed) a crafted hide spell tailored against Wizards/Sorcs. Can clerics turn themselves invisible with some sort of equipment? That could pretty much do it.

ANYWAY I'd give a Sorcer a rod of quickened metamagic, and whatever else he'd need to actually kill the wiz(probably a kill spell). Could beat a Wiz unless there is something I'm missing.

edit: an epic warrior can STILL use spellcasting harrier if he's in range. If we give the Wizards his buffs, fine then I counter with the Vorpal Sword in addition to my magic armor. DEAD WIZARD.

[JeptCloak]

Send in a distraction first, use up all those pre-prepared spells and contingencies, then make your real attack an hour later.

Or, don't be the first encounter of the day.

Besides, with all those high-level contingencies, protections, divinations and so on cast, how many high-level spell slots does this wizard have left? All his 8th and 9th level spells seem to be full, according to the spells used as examples, with stilled and silent and/or quickened spells just in case they get grappled or tripped or suprised or whatever. In other words, they don't have meteor swarm, they have a quickened fifth level spell instead.

Don't forget, to *probably* win initiative *once*, in *one* encounter, the wizard has to sacrifice one of his 4 8th level spell slots. That contingency costs 1500 gp every time the spell is renewed or used. And so on, and so on. Not to mention the time spent every morning memorising and then casting all these buffs (and the need to provide somewhere safe to sleep at night with the buffs worn off), or the need to get 8 hours of undisturbed rest every night to keep all those buffs ready to cast in the morning.

Hey, there's another tactic for dealing with the wizard. Make lots of noise all night, send summoned enemies to attack him (heck, even a few goblins will wake him up), don't let him sleep. All those dozen of buffs he casts every morning won't be renewed, all he'll have is empty spell slots.


It's also not a ridiculous strategy to use anti-magic to deal with wizards compared to the wizard spending time and resources every morning just in case he bumps into an enemy in the corridor and needs to win initiative.

Your contingency is unlikely to be "teleport me away when anyone gets within 20 feet of me", it's more likely to relate to someone who fits dangerous criteria, like being able to win initiative against you, or is a equal level fighter/cleric/druid, or whatever. So a distraction won't work, unless this isn't "wizard v.s another class" but "a team of guys against the wizard" which seems to defeat the question.

I don't understand how "keeping him on the run" is a plausible strategy for a guy who can retreat to other planes of existence or interdimensional mansions, all the while hiding his location and recharging... of course, he will have killed you long before this, unless your giving his opposition a whole team of guys, which again seems to defeat my question...

[JeptCloak]

In a scrictly one on one scenario with both combatants otherwise equal?

Truth to tell, we havn't even looked at the cleric with healing spells. A wiz/sorc could probably use an instant death spell in that scenario and win, but maybe the Cleric can get out of it with a buff, shield, or(if its allowed) a crafted hide spell tailored against Wizards/Sorcs. Can clerics turn themselves invisible with some sort of equipment? That could pretty much do it.

ANYWAY I'd give a Sorcer a rod of quickened metamagic, and whatever else he'd need to actually kill the wiz(probably a kill spell). Could beat a Wiz unless there is something I'm missing.

edit: an epic warrior can STILL use spellcasting harrier if he's in range. If we give the Wizards his buffs, fine then I counter with the Vorpal Sword in addition to my magic armor. DEAD WIZARD.

It seems embarassing for a non-player like me to be pointing this out, but you seem to be missing alot. It was already explained how rods of metamagic didn't help sorcerors with the quickened spells problem at all (go back and read it please), and how does a vorpal blade help against the prismatic sphere I've just cast while I buff, spam spells and gate in creatures, before moving to another plane of existence and lowering the sphere? Am I to believe a vorpal blade cuts through a prismatic sphere like butter? If so, is such a thing really standard for a lvl 20ish fighter?

[Juron Pilo]

Quote or it didn't happen.

Because frankly I think you are referencing Phantom Posts from beyond the Grave.

edit: It doesn't. Antimagic Armor does. Those spells have timers.

[Lukraak]

I also fail to see the point you are trying to make.
Yes, in the situation as you sketch it a wizard will most likely win, as the fight as you want to set it up is pretty biassed in favor of the wizard.
And even then, its not nearly as sure fire as you seem to hope. Epic lvl fighters do have a good defense against wizards in the gear they are expected to have at such lvls.
This is to say nothing of other classes, who under similar conditions would have time to prepare spells to counter a wizards repetoire, or have abilities like stealth/evasion/spellresistance etc.
A good monk for instance has dimension door available to appear behind a wizard, has evasion to prevent being hit by most spells, good touch AC and magic resistance. Combine this with the once a week insta death touch and they stand a good chance at winning in 2-3 rounds.
Such 1 on 1 fights in DnD are mainly a case of rock-paper-scissors.

In 1 on 1 fights WITHOUT preparation or knowledge of the opponent wizards (and clerics and druids) are more random in performance. If they happen to have the correct set of spells memorized, gold. If they have the wrong set (say heavy lightning based against immune to lightning opponents) they are hosed. Sponanous casters, like bards and sorcerers come off better in these. Melee classes even better, as they tend to have more generic 'sorta ok against most things' protection gear and beating things to death tends to work regardless.
And as for divination spells... lets just say that gods (gm's) tend to be very good at being cryptic with those and at epic level most characters have items that protect them from such scrying for various good reasons.

As for an epic lvl wizard living in his/her warded tower and thus being protected from rogues... Epic lvl rogues are MADE to get trough such towers and loot their stuff

[JeptCloak]

Lost, stolen, or destroyed, perhaps.. but easily? Frankly, it should be easier to kill the wizard than to effectively deprive him of his spellbooks. (Yes, books. Any half-way intelligent wizard makes at least one copy of his primary spellbook and keeps it stored away somewhere safe and easily accessible to him.) His actual traveling spellbook is probably (depending on level) made with adamantine covers, locked with the best lock he can find or get somebody to make (also made of adamantine), stored as a cloth-form Shrunk Item in the false bottom of a small chest or other container which itself is Arcane Locked (one of the few useful applications of that spell.) And for good measure both the book and the container are treated with Obscure Object. And then maybe that whole assembly is stored in some random meaningless bit of the Ethereal Plane by way of the Secret Chest spell.

'course, all of that requires resources that aren't really available to a low-level wizard. But if you're going to permanently remove the spellbook of a low level wizard, you may as well just kill him; it'll be about the same thing.



Metamagic Rods do not solve the Sorcerer's problem- "A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses." The rods work exactly as if the caster was using the feat himself, which means spontaneous casters still have to suck up the increased casting time and the inability to Quicken things.

Sorcerers are not the best prepared, IMO. They're a hammer class (re: the proverb 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.) because of the strict limit on spells known. They can have a variety of hammers, and they can have carefully chosen multi-function hammers.. but in the end, they're still hammers. It doesn't make up for not having the actual right tool. Wizards can change the tools they use entirely. Both a Wizard and a Sorcerer can encounter a situation where none of the spells they have are useful. So maybe the party has to back off and try something different if none of the other group members can help either. The next day? The Sorcerer *still* won't have anything useful and cannot have anything useful. The Wizard gets to poke through his book and find out if he does have something useful. [Excepting stored magic such as wands and scrolls, as both Sorcs and Wizards can use those equally.. although the Wizard still gets superior access to those by getting Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.]

See here, I have bolded it.

[JeptCloak]

Quote or it didn't happen.

Because frankly I think you are referencing Phantom Posts from beyond the Grave.

edit: It doesn't. Antimagic Armor does. Those spells have timers.

Unless I'm misreading it a Prismatic Sphere is unaffected by anti-magic fields, and I don't see why the armour would be different. I don't understand what your timer point refers to either.

[Shadowcaller]

This is to say nothing of other classes, who under similar conditions would have time to prepare spells to counter a wizards repetoire, or have abilities like stealth/evasion/spellresistance etc.
A good monk for instance has dimension door available to appear behind a wizard, has evasion to prevent being hit by most spells, good touch AC and magic resistance. Combine this with the once a week insta death touch and they stand a good chance at winning in 2-3 rounds.
Such 1 on 1 fights in DnD are mainly a case of rock-paper-scissors.

In 1 on 1 fights WITHOUT preparation or knowledge of the opponent wizards (and clerics and druids) are more random in performance. If they happen to have the correct set of spells memorized, gold. If they have the wrong set (say heavy lightning based against immune to lightning opponents) they are hosed. Sponanous casters, like bards and sorcerers come off better in these. Melee classes even better, as they tend to have more generic 'sorta ok against most things' protection gear and beating things to death tends to work regardless.
And as for divination spells... lets just say that gods (gm's) tend to be very good at being cryptic with those and at epic level most characters have items that protect them from such scrying for various good reasons.

As for an epic lvl wizard living in his/her warded tower and thus being protected from rogues... Epic lvl rogues are MADE to get trough such towers and loot their stuff
Everyone that thinks monk are an anti-caster class should look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6177254#post6177254) thread...

[Snake-Aes]

Ok, 2 uber HD gold dragons.
"Our reward"
"err..."
<dragons eat wizard>


<giggle>

[JeptCloak]

I also fail to see the point you are trying to make.
Yes, in the situation as you sketch it a wizard will most likely win, as the fight as you want to set it up is pretty biassed in favor of the wizard.
And even then, its not nearly as sure fire as you seem to hope. Epic lvl fighters do have a good defense against wizards in the gear they are expected to have at such lvls.
This is to say nothing of other classes, who under similar conditions would have time to prepare spells to counter a wizards repetoire, or have abilities like stealth/evasion/spellresistance etc.
A good monk for instance has dimension door available to appear behind a wizard, has evasion to prevent being hit by most spells, good touch AC and magic resistance. Combine this with the once a week insta death touch and they stand a good chance at winning in 2-3 rounds.
Such 1 on 1 fights in DnD are mainly a case of rock-paper-scissors.

In 1 on 1 fights WITHOUT preparation or knowledge of the opponent wizards (and clerics and druids) are more random in performance. If they happen to have the correct set of spells memorized, gold. If they have the wrong set (say heavy lightning based against immune to lightning opponents) they are hosed. Sponanous casters, like bards and sorcerers come off better in these. Melee classes even better, as they tend to have more generic 'sorta ok against most things' protection gear and beating things to death tends to work regardless.
And as for divination spells... lets just say that gods (gm's) tend to be very good at being cryptic with those and at epic level most characters have items that protect them from such scrying for various good reasons.

As for an epic lvl wizard living in his/her warded tower and thus being protected from rogues... Epic lvl rogues are MADE to get trough such towers and loot their stuff

Epic level Rogues who can penetrate a warded tower or dungeon of an Epic level mage, and find and take their protected spellbook... how plausible. Just assume whatever tower they live in is going to be at least as tough as the Magnificent Mansion spell... how on earth could a rogue get in there?

[Dark Matter]

Neither is a one on one player vs player match.

You are MISSING THE POINT. The whole "Kill the Wizard" idea NATURALLY assumes an arena style combat, and arena style combat allows you to prepare ahead for your opponent. There is nothing unfair about that for the Wizard.Na, for a "fair" contest we'd have Q or some god teleport both of them into the arena without any warning.

The Wiz is prepared for something else, or (better still) it's an "average" day for him.

Now he's powerful but a fair bit of that "flexibility" has been turned against him.

[JeptCloak]

Ok, 2 uber HD gold dragons.
"Our reward"
"err..."
<dragons eat wizard>


<giggle>

Even I know the spell doesn't work like that, but I'm not going to get sidetracked on it.

[Juron Pilo]

Nope. The wizard hasn't won yet.

Sword of the Planes

This longsword has an enhancement bonus of +1 on the Material Plane, but on any Elemental Plane its enhancement bonus increases to +2. (The +2 enhancement bonus also applies on the Material Plane when the weapon is used against elementals.) It operates as a +3 longsword on the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane or when used against opponents native to either of those planes. On any other plane, or against any outsider, it functions as a +4 longsword.

Strong evocation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Price 22,315 gp; Cost 11,157 gp and 5 sp + 893 XP.

Apparently, I took the dual wielding feat.

Keep going though, you are managing to make me rack up money costs.

[JeptCloak]

Na, for a "fair" contest we'd have Q or some god teleport both of them into the arena without any warning.

The Wiz is prepared for something else, or (better still) it's an "average" day for him.

Now he's powerful but a fair bit of that "flexibility" has been turned against him.

sure, with luck anything is possible, but on any sort of a decent day the wizard is the overwhelming favorite to win, which is sort of the point.

[Juron Pilo]

Well, then prepared for the crowd to be shocked, awed, and dismayed, CUZ I'M RIPPING YOUR MAGE A NEW ONE!

[JeptCloak]

Nope. The wizard hasn't won yet.

Sword of the Planes

This longsword has an enhancement bonus of +1 on the Material Plane, but on any Elemental Plane its enhancement bonus increases to +2. (The +2 enhancement bonus also applies on the Material Plane when the weapon is used against elementals.) It operates as a +3 longsword on the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane or when used against opponents native to either of those planes. On any other plane, or against any outsider, it functions as a +4 longsword.

Strong evocation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, plane shift; Price 22,315 gp; Cost 11,157 gp and 5 sp + 893 XP.

Apparently, I took the dual wielding feat.

Keep going though, you are managing to make me rack up money costs.

So in fact you concede you were just wrong on both the points you mocked me for raising. And your latest rejoinder (after ignoring your earlier errors) is to find a weapon which would help a fighter if he knows in advance he will be fighting a wizard with prismatic sphere? I never stated they were prepping, you did. I merely said the wizard has his standard equipment, which include the usual buffs he has on against generic threats to a wizard of his power.

Back to your eg, I have little idea what the sword does, however unless it cuts through a prismatic sphere it's useless. Does it? Based on the description you've just offered the answer is no. Which means the fighter loses.

[Juron Pilo]

So your suggesting a summons based wizard is in no way specialized? I find that hard to believe. Why in gods name would a wizards response to every threat be to summon monsters and planar travel? Besides, explain to me why a Fighter would more likely do something else when planar travel and prismatic sphere are really your only counters? NOBODY ELSE HAS THAT. I have a ****ing vorpal sword and antimagic armor. What other class is going to fight me that I woln't be prepared? A Monk? Another Fighter?

[Kilremgor]

I posed a question earlier. Excepting Magic Domain Clerics for a moment, just what will your standard druid/cleric/fighter, etc, do when the wizard wins initiative for reasons alluded to many times already, and then casts say prismatic sphere. The wizard then sits safely in their sphere buffing, gates in a few modestly sized celestial creatures, and then if they want they can teleport to another plane or make themselves etheral or whatever while the other character waits for them, able to do little more than twiddle thumbs and add a few buffs (which will be ok, but nothing on what the Wizard can do). When the sphere goes down, assuming the wizard hasn't moved to another plane of existence or something, the other fighter is immediately hit by an unknown number of spammed delayed blast attacks, attacked by a few celestial creatures, and has to try and hurt a nearly invulnerable wizard.

Druid or Animal domain cleric: Shapechange into Will-o-Wisp. It is immune to all magic that is affected by spell resistance, and all of prismatic sphere colors are. Get inside the prismatic sphere, it's not like wizard can kill the shapechanged cleric/druid with magic missile or maze (exceptions to will-o-wisp immunity). Depends on DM ruling of course.
Once inside, well, things get much easier.
And anyway, druid summoning (elementals, monsters, etc.; animal companion) + prebuffs + shapechange allow just to wait when wizard ends the prismatic sphere and don't be disadvantaged then.

[Lukraak]

See, I get the feeling you don't particularly care about a valid argument, you just wish to hear that wizards are end-all, win-all and that anyone beating them is by very definition a cheat.

Its unlikely you will get everyone to agree with that, as in DnD wizards just are not what you hope they are. Yes, I will agree they can be very powerful, but they can also be completely useless in a fight at exactly the same level.
Just like every other character.

As for monks being an anti-caster class, I never intended to suggest that. I merely ment to say they have abilities that can, with good tactics, but used in such ways. A monk I once ran nearly defeated a wizard at least 4 levels higher than him by accident using an unconventional tactic.
Using that same tactic a day later against the self same wizard led to rolling a new character :smalltongue:

[Duaneyo1]

I'll bite:


Ok. So I am a level 20 druid. Jeph’s wizard cast prismatic sphere at the start of the fight. It’s will last 10/ level. He stays inside his sphere and buffs / summons allies. I have a greater dispel, but that’s a level 6 spell and might not bust throw. We’ll you can’t throw magic out of that sphere and I got plenty of 10/ minute buffs and summons. So, I buff myself. (deathward, windwalk, foresight, freedom of movement) Use my summon spells to get me things with a grapple attack, Shape change myself ( the options are really endless ) and wait for you to lower the sphere.....

[JeptCloak]

So your suggesting a summons based wizard is in no way specialized? I find that hard to believe. Why in gods name would a wizards response to every threat be to summon monsters and planar travel? Besides, explain to me why a Fighter would more likely do something else when planar travel and prismatic sphere are really your only counters? NOBODY ELSE HAS THAT. I have a ****ing vorpal sword and antimagic armor. What other class is going to fight me that I woln't be prepared? A monk? Another Fighter?

Well, firstly wizards don't need to specialise. Secondly I think you'd have to be a pretty suboptimal wizard to chose as your barred schools the best spells (conjuration for eg). Sure, V has it, but he's suboptimal with fireballs and the like as his speciality. Now a wizard who is at lvl 20 is fairly likely to have prepped the best spells, to prepare them for things that can actually threaten them. I gave a few example... other people in this thread gave different examples. Your character apparently was to bring everything they needed for this specific fight, but now even that isn't enough. Your fighter needs me to only have dumb spells to win. Is there any point talking to you anyway?

I don't really care how you'll do against a Monk. That's not what I've been discussing and asking about in this thread. If the wizard is vaguely sensible in spell choice, they will win the overwhelming number of times. You seem to be conceding it.

[Juron Pilo]

Speaking of all that money I'm spending on equipment, where are you getting your spells? *point*

edit: What? No. You havn't actually BEATEN my fighter yet WITH ANY SPELLS.

As it last stood I ****ING OWNED YOU WITH A VORPAL SWORD, A PLANESHIFT SWORD, AND ANTIMAGIC ARMOR. YOU'RE WIZARD IS DEAD. NO ANTIMAGIC SHIELD. NO PLANESHIFTING. NOTHING.

You claimed I was specializing. I proved I was not. I then retorted that you were specially picking your spells for this fight. I never said you SPECIALIZED IN A SCHOOL.

[Milandros]

Jept, I'm not sure what you're after here.

You've said you don't play the game and don't know the ruleset, but when those who do state that while wizards are incredibly flexible and potentially truly deadly when given time to prepare and some advance knowledge of what they will face, you argue and tell us they're always the most powerful.

Well, for several years the regulars at the Wizards of the Coast D&D boards disagreed with you. Assuming no rules exploiting - in which case a 5th level kobold is the most powerful being in existance - witness Pun-Pun http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801 - then clerics and druids were always regarded as the most powerful classes, more so than wizards. They even coined a name for them, "CoDzilla".
Of course, if you want to play within the letter of the rules but against the spirit, the Hulking Hurler does about 4700 hit points of damage per attack at 18th level (20th level wizard with an huge 20 CON has a maximum possible 180 hit points, assuming maximum rolls on every dice), and gets four attacks per round.

A 20th level cleric has a better hit points, better weapons and armour choice than the wizard. He's got even more summoning spells than the wizard, as many or more buffs, better divination, superb attack spells plus loads and loads of healing, none of which he needs to pre-prepare. He doesn't have quite so many crowd control spells though. His damaging spells are great though, and he has loads of save-or-die options too.

A druid, through one feat, can shapechange into an incredibly tough animal and still keep full spellcasting ability. Druids are also known as immensely powerful.

[JeptCloak]

I'll bite:


Ok. So I am a level 20 druid. Jeph’s wizard cast prismatic sphere at the start of the fight. It’s will last 10/ level. He stays inside his sphere and buffs / summons allies. I have a greater dispel, but that’s a level 6 spell and might not bust throw. We’ll you can’t throw magic out of that sphere and I got plenty of 10/ minute buffs and summons. So, I buff myself. (deathward, windwalk, foresight, freedom of movement) Use my summon spells to get me things with a grapple attack, Shape change myself ( the options are really endless ) and wait for you to lower the sphere.....

I don't suggest the sphere is the best way to win. I'm mainly using it to demonstrate how absurd this "fighter with AMF armour and a sword wins!" stuff is. Against a powerful magic user the Sphere will only be used if the Wizard is in deep trouble (eg, no initiative, fight is going poorly), and then it's just a get out of jail card to slow them down while the wizard plane shifts or goes to his mansion and recovers (assumedly with mind blank or something), or preps something else.

[Juron Pilo]

I'm still waiting for a response to my uber equiped fighter.

edit: Thats no good. I can follow you with a planeshift sword.

See, you don't get it. Nothing you have but your summons can even hurt me. The vorpal sword is an INSTANT KILL. No questions asked. I use it you die. The end. Kaput. Game over Mr. Wizard.

[JeptCloak]

Speaking of all that money I'm spending on equipment, where are you getting your spells? *point*

edit: What? No. You havn't actually BEATEN my fighter yet WITH ANY SPELLS.

As it last stood I ****ING OWNED YOU WITH A VORPAL SWORD, A PLANESHIFT SWORD, AND ANTIMAGIC ARMOR. YOU'RE WIZARD IS DEAD. NO ANTIMAGIC SHIELD. NO PLANESHIFTING. NOTHING.

You claimed I was specializing. I proved I was not. I then retorted that you were specially picking your spells for this fight. I never said you SPECIALIZED IN A SCHOOL.

It's gotten to the point I don't even know if you're trying to be taken seriously, or have a language problem or something. I have posed a pretty basic scenario... it didn't involve timestopping and gating in dragons, or winning initiative or spamming 1500 points of damage at once, or abusing shapechange. I merely asked what exactly your fighter does if I cast prismatic sphere. The answer seems to be "sits and chews his thumbs". During this extended period of thumbchewing I have massively buffed myself, gated in some creatures who can fit inside the sphere with me, possibly made myself etheral, and/or moved to an alternative plane of existence just before/after ending the sphere. You are then spammed with a massive number of delayed attacks, attacked by summoned creatures who by definition are above your level, and in the meantime I'm living it up in some untrackable mansion. Even if you survive, I can just pull out something else without you ever getting near me. It seems absurd to suggest a fighter would triumph in an arena fight as suggested.

[Undead Prince]

Oooh, what a nice thread 8=]

Am I going to get involved?

Not at this point... better to sit back and watch the show for a while 8=))

Just one small thing I couldn't really pass...


Ok, 2 uber HD gold dragons.
"Our reward"
"err..."
<dragons eat wizard>


<giggle>

Phantom Steed (14 CL; your standard Wizard transportation unit) + Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch.

The bigger they get, the lower their DEX and touch AC 8=))

This gets rid of the standard dragon brute.

Against a crazy-prepared great wyrm dragon, decked with magic items and casting protection spells on itself every morning, you bring in your cohort, undead minions (including Awakened dragons), and Red Wizard powers. At level 12 (my fav wizard build ATM), you will have enough options to beat the enemy dragons in a variety of ways, be it through ultra-high-DC save-or-dies (Circle Magic Heightened Spell + increased caster level + Incantatrix cohort instant Twin Spell), supernatural abilities that cut through spell resistance (Acidic Splatter powered by an acid spell heightened to 20th level = 20d4 unsaveable unresistable acid damage at will at 100ft range), grapple spells that fully scale with your insanely high caster level (Black Tentacles, Stone Grasp etc, if he's on the ground), many, many undead minions (335 HD of awakened undead dragons from you alone, not counting cohorts), and charger melee builds for cohorts/undead minions.

And don't forget... Gold Dragons make the best non-epic Zombies.

[JeptCloak]

I'm still waiting for a response to my uber equiped fighter.

edit: Thats no good. I can follow you with a planeshift sword.

See, you don't get it. Nothing you have but your summons can even hurt me. The vorpal sword is an INSTANT KILL. No questions asked. I use it you die. The end. Kaput. Game over Mr. Wizard.

I don't understand, you can follow the wizard to their magnificent mansion with a plane shifting sword, despite the fact plane shifting into a magnificent mansion is not allowed? How? How would you even know where the wizard has gone to after they've plane shifted to wherever, and/or teleported from there once more. Meanwhile you've got some celestial creatures double your strength attacking you, and I am free to send more things to fight you, or use any number of other spells to end you while you stand around foolishly with a sword.

[Dark Matter]

Question:

Does Spell Turning Trump Dispel Magic?
Or can Dispel Magic dispel Spell Turning?

[Undead Prince]

Speaking of all that money I'm spending on equipment, where are you getting your spells? *point*

edit: What? No. You havn't actually BEATEN my fighter yet WITH ANY SPELLS.

As it last stood I ****ING OWNED YOU WITH A VORPAL SWORD, A PLANESHIFT SWORD, AND ANTIMAGIC ARMOR. YOU'RE WIZARD IS DEAD. NO ANTIMAGIC SHIELD. NO PLANESHIFTING. NOTHING.

You claimed I was specializing. I proved I was not. I then retorted that you were specially picking your spells for this fight. I never said you SPECIALIZED IN A SCHOOL.

Heh heh, what a spirited debate 8=))

Antimagic something? Disjunction + Quickened Disjunction (caster level 66 at character level 12) = 88,44 % of suppression. Voila, the fighter is cracked open to magical humiliations.

Not even that, though. Just sic your undead hordes on him. Vorpal sword? Useless against undead.

[Juron Pilo]

First of all, your monsters you are so proud of are going to be stuck in your sphere, so I don't even have to kill them first, I just wait for the shield to drop then go right for you. If I get hurt who cares, I can just plane shift out before the monsters kill me. Second of all I could plane shift out away from your monsters anyways. And third of all, this is key, I. CAN. FOLLOW. YOU.

Most of your monsters you want to use? Before you even start with the attacks? I have on ANTI MAGIC ARMOR. Choosing melee only monsters is going to hamper your summoning power and I got a weapon of instakill on me.

[JeptCloak]

First of all, your monsters you are so proud of are going to be stuck in your sphere, so I don't even have to kill them first, I just wait for the shield to drop then go right for you. If I get hurt who cares, I can just plane shift out before the monsters kill me. Second of all I could plane shift out away from your monsters anyways. And third of all, this is key, I. CAN. FOLLOW. YOU.

Most of your monsters you want to use? Before you even start with the attacks? I have on ANTI MAGIC ARMOR. Choosing melee only monsters is going to hamper your summoning power and I got a weapon of instakill on me.

1) Let's think about how buffed and immune to most damage the wizard will be when the sphere is dropped.
2) Why will the substantially more powerful gated beings be standing behind me waiting for you to attack?
3) I don't even have to be in the sphere when it drops. I can just shift to another plane of existence, or go to my mansion or something before the spell drops or is dismissed, and leave my creatures to take you down. If things don't go well, I just send more things to help, or try some cheese like Wish to increase their odds. You certainly won't be anywhere near me.

I haven't said what monsters I'll be summoning, but there are any number that can kill you given they'll be doubled our respective levels. At any rate, you can't follow me. The Mansion can't be plane shifted into. You've been wrong a number of times before, and this seems to be another example. Meanwhile you have no way of finding me even if you escape the creatures, and I have many ways of finding you and continuing to try and kill you. But if you've had to flee, and the wizard now gets to sit back and prep, the fight is basically over and you've conceded any advantage your arena fight granted.

[Juron Pilo]

You're a level 20 Wizard and charisma is probably gonna be one of your dump stats. Where are you getting these magic allies that want to help you so badly as a level 20 Wizard? Is having "Substantially more powerful" summons normal for a Wizard of this level?

You're whole argument from begining to end is riddled with holes.

[JeptCloak]

Alright, since you're so fond of the argument: By RAW, clerics aren't allowed to have spells the DM doesn't give them. Further, since you don't actually read the description of any spell stated here: Mage's(originally Mordenkainen's) Magnificient Mansion. So not only can you not Teleport into it, you cannot Plane Shift into nor force the door open unless the Wizard allows you in. Essentially, it's the spell that sneers in the general direction of Scry-and-Die tactics.

See here for reference, again something you should have read by now.

[JeptCloak]

You're a level 20 Wizard and charisma is probably gonna be one of your dump stats. Where are you getting these magic allies that want to help you so badly as a level 20 Wizard? Is having "Substantially more powerful" summons normal for a Wizard of this level?

You're whole argument from begining to end is riddled with holes.

This is getting embarassing. I don't even play, and yet I've heard of spells like gate... and yet you clearly don't understand it, and are still talking smack.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm
"You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level."

[Juron Pilo]

You're mansion isn't going to work. Check the size of it. Notice how its just as big as the space for PSphere? You'd be smushed between your house and the sphere itself.

[Juron Pilo]

Ok, now pick your allies. I'm game, what are you going to call with gate that can stop me from slicing you up before you can do anything?

edit: 3 10 foot cubes. My mistake.:smallbiggrin:

[JeptCloak]

You're mansion isn't going to work. Check the size of it. Notice how its just as big as the space for PSphere? You'd be smushed between your house and the sphere itself.

It is up to 9 levels, but I can design it however I like, so I can make it the size of the sphere, unless I'm missing something. At any rate, I don't even need to go into it before the sphere is dismissed, because you'll be busy fighting off summoned creatures and I'll have enough buffs and protections to survive the single turn it will take for me to be completely out of your reach. Any more ideas? As a friendly bit of advice, exclamation marks don't enhance your arguments.

I'm also unconvinced that the mansion is impeded by the sphere, given it's in another plane of existence, and the door is the only part in our plane, and it fits neatly in the sphere. I imagine a DM would rule on it. Not that it needs to matter, for reasons I already noted.

I am not a player, so I don't really have the energy to find which creatures I'd gate in (certainly not for someone whose been proven wrong so many times their now grasping at straws). When you have a spell like gate, there's little doubt beings can be summoned strong enough to delay/kill you.

[Juron Pilo]

The only thing that suggests anything of the sort is that you can create a floor plan. Floor plan does not dimension changing make.

Neither does being conceited.

edit: heres a real killer. The sphere is 10 feet radius. YOU take up 5 feet. That doesn't leave much room for monsters.

[JeptCloak]

The only thing that suggests anything of the sort is that you can create a floor plan. Floor plan does not dimension changing make.

Neither does being conceited.

The Spell says it can be "up to" the size you quote. It obviously can be smaller too then... also "Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond". I have a hard time seeing why a prismatic sphere in another plane would affect anything except the doorway which connects it. Since the door is smaller than the sphere I don't see a problem. Again, it's also implausible the wizard will be dead within the 1 turn it takes to escape when gated and summoned creatures will be fighting you first, and I'll be using all manner of protections, including probably being etheral or made of starmetal or shapechanged into whatever takes a while to kill.

[Juron Pilo]

Ok fine, UP to 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet still.

It can't even JUST fit. Its... like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Aharon]

@Juro
I kindly ask you to read the rules before arguing them.
The Antimagic Armor you quoted is a joke. It doesn't put a permanent AMF on your fighter, it's just an incredibly expensive way of making sure the buffs your caster friend did cast on you are less likely to get dispelled (it puts a -5 on their dispel check, nothing else).
And you are practically naked if you actually have it at 20th level and we go by WBL, as was pointed out.

@Snake-Aes and JeptCloak
You asked what a reasonably buffed Wizard might have as protections: I refer you to this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3821.0) thread.

@Snake-Aes
@Dragon reward:
Please reread the Gate spell, tasks that last up to 1 round per caster level do not have to be rewarded.
@Contact other plane
The DC16 Int check to contact a greater deity is easy to pass for a wizard, as you can take 10 on ability checks like that. The greater deity gives a true answer in 88% of the cases, so if you ask it a question pertaining to its portfolio, it has to answer questions about the future truthfully:


Portfolio Sense
Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

@all
I would like to share a humorous take on this: a youtube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) (admittedly, it only shows the difference between fighter and wizard.)

also @all
I'm a bit disappointed that there was no response to the links I provided. I deeply recommend them for anyone who thinks beating a wizard is easy.

[JeptCloak]

Ok fine, UP to 30 feet and a minimum of 10 feet still.

I'm sorry, I don't see where the minimum is in the spell description. I also don't see how it would matter given the door easily fits within the sphere. And I already covered that I'd be gating in creatures who can fit in the sphere. But that isn't much of a problem when they're just there as the opening salvo in case I need to go to my mansion (assuming for the sake of argument I can't get in anyway). Once in the mansion, I can then gate creatures of any size and send them to kill you.

[Juron Pilo]

I read it alright. It says it grants invulnerability. I admit its rather unclear as to exactly what it does but it does do the job.

It only allows you to build using 10 foot cubes. It says nothing about 1 foot cubes, 2 foot cubes, 3 foot, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. Not my problem you failed semantics.

[Omegonthesane]

I propose the following set of rules that shall settle this. Once. And. For. All.

Herewith begins an epic duel between a Wizard and a Wizard-Slayer, on the Wizard's ground, and probably on the Wizard's terms. The Wizard shall have 20 levels in Wizard and no prestige classes whatsoever. The Wizard-Slayer shall have 20 levels, which he may take in any combination of classes he likes, provided that he never reaches caster level 20 in an arcane spellcasting class.

The Wizard shall choose a number of points with which his stats are bought; the Wizard-Slayer shall have this same number of points to buy his stats with.

The Wizard gets 24 hours to prepare. By default, he has only cantrips and the spells he got by levelling up - so, a minimum of 43 1st-9th level spells, and a maximum of 8 9th level spells. However, the Wizard is assumed to have infinite gold and access to all goods and services that gold can buy, including scrolls with which he may add to his spellbook. At the end of the 24 hours, the Wizard prepares all his spells.

When the Wizard is done preparing, he shall present an itemised bill for every single gold piece he spent preparing, including the price, where applicable, of all costly material components of spells that he has prepared. Then the Wizard-Slayer shall have the same infinite market access, and the same exact amount of gold that the Wizard spent to prepare himself. During this preparation time neither Wizard nor Wizard-Slayer needs to eat, drink, or sleep, nor may they start the fight early.

For best results neither Wizard nor Wizard-Slayer knows exactly what the other can bring to bear against them. After all, Squishy would prepare different spells if he knew Exdeath & Boris were after him than if he knew that Lenna the Ridiculously Charismatic Rogue was after him.

[Juron Pilo]

I checked and.... Invulnerability appears to mean immune to magic.

Great Invulnerability
This suit of armor or shield grants the wearer damage reduction. The damage reduction can be 10/magic, 15/magic, 5/epic, or 10/epic, depending on the armor.

Table: Shield Special Abilitiesd% Special Ability Market Price Modifier1
01-06 Great invulnerability (10/magic) +4 bonus
07-12 Great invulnerability (15/magic) +5 bonus

Clearly invulnerability here means immunity to magic.

Next claim?

[JBento]

No it doesn't. It means you get DR 10/magic.
Spells still own your ass.
All the time. Every time.

[Milandros]

I checked and.... Invulnerability appears to mean immune to magic.

Great Invulnerability
This suit of armor or shield grants the wearer damage reduction. The damage reduction can be 10/magic, 15/magic, 5/epic, or 10/epic, depending on the armor.

Table: Shield Special Abilitiesd% Special Ability Market Price Modifier1
01-06 Great invulnerability (10/magic) +4 bonus
07-12 Great invulnerability (15/magic) +5 bonus

Clearly invulnerability here means immunity to magic.

Next claim?

Sorry, but damage reduction 10/magic that 10 damage is removed from any attacks that do normal damage - and that magic weapons will ignore the damage reduction. 10/silver means that silver weapons are needed to ignore damage reduction, not that one is immune to silver.

Energy damage will go through as normal.

[Juron Pilo]

Meh, I'm down but I'm not out. That only means that I have to survive save or die spells. I can STILL kick your ass as soon as you come out of your sphere.

edit: Wait, can't I still just make my own antimagic armor that actually works? Its a bit of work and the dm might not allow it but technically I can still imbue an armor with the AMF Spell. It will cost a **** ton of resources.

edit: Gates not gonna work in the Prismatic Sphere. Its a 20 foot radius gate.

[Aharon]

@Omegonthesane
Well, there it begins. The wizard 20 would use contact other plane to know rather well what expects him.
I will stat one out on the weekend, but it is rather time consuming, so don't expect it to be finished before sunday.

[Juron Pilo]

Stop. I'm not defeated.
Prismatic sphere can't do either of the spells he wants to cast.

If he puts the sphere up he can't do anything while in there, and I kick his ass anyways.

If he tries to summon monsters, he can't quicken them at level 20.

[Milandros]

I propose the following set of rules that shall settle this. Once. And. For. All.

Herewith begins an epic duel between a Wizard and a Wizard-Slayer, on the Wizard's ground, and probably on the Wizard's terms. The Wizard shall have 20 levels in Wizard and no prestige classes whatsoever. The Wizard-Slayer shall have 20 levels, which he may take in any combination of classes he likes, provided that he never reaches caster level 20 in an arcane spellcasting class.

The Wizard shall choose a number of points with which his stats are bought; the Wizard-Slayer shall have this same number of points to buy his stats with.

The Wizard gets 24 hours to prepare. By default, he has only cantrips and the spells he got by levelling up - so, a minimum of 43 1st-9th level spells, and a maximum of 8 9th level spells. However, the Wizard is assumed to have infinite gold and access to all goods and services that gold can buy, including scrolls with which he may add to his spellbook. At the end of the 24 hours, the Wizard prepares all his spells.

When the Wizard is done preparing, he shall present an itemised bill for every single gold piece he spent preparing, including the price, where applicable, of all costly material components of spells that he has prepared. Then the Wizard-Slayer shall have the same infinite market access, and the same exact amount of gold that the Wizard spent to prepare himself. During this preparation time neither Wizard nor Wizard-Slayer needs to eat, drink, or sleep, nor may they start the fight early.

For best results neither Wizard nor Wizard-Slayer knows exactly what the other can bring to bear against them. After all, Squishy would prepare different spells if he knew Exdeath & Boris were after him than if he knew that Lenna the Ridiculously Charismatic Rogue was after him.



First of all, I suggest using the standard wealth-per-level guidelines rather than infinite wealth. Only non-epic items, too. Also, a gentleman's agreement not to abuse the rules should be in place - no pun-puns or other complete violations fo the spirit of the rules.

Next, I say do this twice, once in the large empty arena open to the sky and again in the dungeon, using a 20'x30' room with an 8' high ceiling. The same spells hsould be prepared and active in each case.

If the wizard makes any magical items or casts spells that require XP cost then he must reduce his XP total correspondingly, dropping below 20th level.

Finally, the fights should start with no spells cast in the previous four hours - thus hour-per-level daily buff spells can be cast, but minute/level and 10 minute/level ones can not. Alternatively, for every round the wizard gets to prepare, the wizard-killer gets to do the same with potions, scrolls, divine spells, etc.

[Ancalagon]

Wizard-Slayer prepares in a mansion that's warded with epic magic/by elder gods against the pesky level 20 mage... duh?

[Juron Pilo]

Not only can't he do that because it woln't fit, it doesn't do him any good.

What happens when the mansion disapears?

edit: Even if we allow both your spells to fit by some mathematical magic.

You still forgot one thing.
I can teleport.

You setup your AMF and your little house and summon your monsters. I planar teleport away, wait do nothing and come back. Repeat ad naseum.

But for arguments sake lets say you summon your monsters first. I planar tele away again and come back after they are gone.(soon as your concentration check is over). You of course have hidden in your cottage right? I wait for you to get out and kick your butt with no monsters.

Hell, the mons are a con check to keep up.

edit: Your still ****ed.
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Sometimes damage reduction is instant healing. Sometimes damage reduction represents the creature’s tough hide or body. In either case, characters can see that conventional attacks don’t work.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
I'm still wearing my anti magic armor. It may not protect me from damage but it protects me from the effects.

so I ignore 15 damage, magic damage, and any and all magical effects

[Omegonthesane]

First of all, I suggest using the standard wealth-per-level guidelines rather than infinite wealth. Only non-epic items, too. Also, a gentleman's agreement not to abuse the rules should be in place - no pun-puns or other complete violations fo the spirit of the rules.
I was more intending the infinite wealth so that a wizard could buy and staff an entire castle or dungeon with his infinite wealth, so things REALLY get awesome as the Wizard-Slayer brings an appropriately large and well-equipped army.


Next, I say do this twice, once in the large empty arena open to the sky and again in the dungeon, using a 20'x30' room with an 8' high ceiling. The same spells hsould be prepared and active in each case.
Heh.
Squishy: Fly!
Marlene: You know, sugar, there's a roof.
Squishy: Is there now? *looks*
Marlene: SNEAK ATTACK!

The above dialogue would be a lot less funny if I was assuming Squishy had half a brain cell, hence his temporary lack of one.


If the wizard makes any magical items or casts spells that require XP cost then he must reduce his XP total correspondingly, dropping below 20th level.
Alternately, he may regain XP spent, but only by giving the same amount of XP to the Wizard-Slayer. The primary point is that they have the same resources barring class features.


Finally, the fights should start with no spells cast in the previous four hours - thus hour-per-level daily buff spells can be cast, but minute/level and 10 minute/level ones can not. Alternatively, for every round the wizard gets to prepare, the wizard-killer gets to do the same with potions, scrolls, divine spells, etc.
Agreed, that was kind of the intention - minute/level and 10min/level really require you to already know what you're up against or be expecting battle immediately, and preferably both.


Wizard-Slayer prepares in a mansion that's warded with epic magic/by elder gods against the pesky level 20 mage... duh?

The intent is that neither Wizard nor Wizard-Slayer can interfere with the other's preparation in any way. Therefore that will be spelled out in cold iron/adamantine/silver/wood/stone (delete as per your preference) here and now.

[Ancalagon]

Therefore my proposal he prepares "in a place where the wizard cannot reach with his spells". The other guy did not get that. ;)

[Juron Pilo]

Spell resistance automatic ignores the relevant damage and effects of magical attacks. As a bonus the number stands for the amount of damage I ignore from REGULAR attacks.

[Aharon]

when the gods/some arbitrary high level character/the DM has to interfer to make the preparation for the battle "fair", you have basically already admitted defeat.

@Omegon:
Well, how about 16 point buy? Enough for the wizard to get his Int raised to 18 (if i remember the number correctly).
@infinite wealth
yeah.. except the wizard wouldn't need that much money.

@walls
you know, there are things you can shapechange into that can move through walls....

@min/level, 10min/level buffs
But the wizard knows what he is up against. It would be stupid of him not to cast them beforehand! You are trying to arbitrarily limit the wizard's power, to make the fight less one-sided.

@Juron
You do not understand the rules, or you didn't bother to read them.

Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Please stop trying to discuss rules you don't know.

[Juron Pilo]

Like fitting a cottage and a gate inside the sphere?

Who cares, I win, by raw.

edit: I'm reading from this:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html#antimagic

edit:
There is also this:
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Thats from the SRD, selective copying woln't help you.

Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance

This garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. It grants the wearer spell resistance 40.

[Athanatos]

edit: Wait, can't I still just make my own antimagic armor that actually works? Its a bit of work and the dm might not allow it but technically I can still imbue an armor with the AMF Spell. It will cost a **** ton of resources.

So now you've wasted all your money on something that theoretically lets you kill wizards... but never actually does so. If you have a constant AMF around you, you lose all ability to actually get close enough to the wizard (remember: your own magic items are disabled too!), or harm him in any meaningful way. If you're wearing that armor, any "teleport away and wait for his durations to expire" plans cease to work. Gated creatures, which are called rather than summoned, proceed to destroy you.

Of course, this could be a suit of armor that doesn't NORMALLY have anti-magic field, but lets you project it using some sort of action... in which case it costs even more and you most likely don't have any money left over for actually giving yourself useful magic items. Also, the field suppresses effects rather than dispelling them, so if you lower it in order to planeshift away, the dimensional anchor is still on you.


There is also this:
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.

Thats from the SRD, selective copying woln't help you.

Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance

This garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. It grants the wearer spell resistance 40.

Sooo... that's an epic item you're using there, which isn't usually going to be freely available. Additionally, any wizard worth his salt can Assay Spell Resistance, meaning he spends a swift action to get a +10 bonus on those checks. Combine that with Spell Penetration feats he very well could have taken (these are logical to take in ANY circumstance), and you end up with a situation where you just spent an enormous amount of money and he just spent one swift action.

[Omegonthesane]

when the gods/some arbitrary high level character/the DM has to interfer to make the preparation for the battle "fair", you have basically already admitted defeat.
Or alternately, a similar situation in gameplay would involve Wizard not even knowing that Wizard-Slayer exists, much less that Wizard-Slayer intends to kill him. Or maybe knowing Wizard-Slayer exists but not deeming him a big enough threat to deal with given how much else Wizard has on his plate. Therefore, he would not explicitly prepare against Wizard-Slayer specifically.

Also, Contact Other Plane has a fair risk of melting Wizard's INT, CHA, and spellcasting ability for several weeks - not a good plan if you know battle is coming in 24 hours. Not to mention that even demi-gods have a 50% (cumulative) chance of either not knowing or lying to you. Or making up a random answer as they want to lie but don't know the truth.

Assuming INT 18, you should only need 8+ on a D20 to not fry your brain when contacting a lesser deity (which is better than a demigod), but that's an appreciable chance - I for one wouldn't want to take a bet with 60% chance of winning, if losing means my arms and legs are all broken and take 3 weeks to heal when I'm expecting the Mafia for a punch-up tomorrow. Even then it's another 60% chance of this deity knowing the correct answer.


@Omegon:
Well, how about 16 point buy? Enough for the wizard to get his Int raised to 18 (if i remember the number correctly).
Agreed. The big thing here is that both sides should be equal.


@infinite wealth
yeah.. except the wizard wouldn't need that much money.
Bear in mind the other restriction - every gold piece the Wizard spends is a gold piece that may be spent in the effort to kill him. That should be enough for a wizard with decent WIS to be careful what he buys even with infy wealth.


@min/level, 10min/level buffs
But the wizard knows what he is up against. It would be stupid of him not to cast them beforehand! You are trying to arbitrarily limit the wizard's power, to make the fight less one-sided.
I outlined the risks of Contact Other Plane above. I'd go as far as allowing 10min/level buffs, as that's a matter of a few hours for an 18th level wizard, but 1min/level is too precise to get it at the right time.

Of course, you are allowed to cast some of your 1min/level buffs in a Time Stop - but equally, the Wizard-Slayer is allowed to be pumped full of every potion he can buy if it's the most viable strategy.

[marquiz]

I tried resisting being drawn into this, but *grin* with preparation Batma... err... wizard. An often overlooked part of d&d games are sages, ancient tomes and gather information checks who/which can potentially provide information regarding most dungeons&critters such. We can see such a tactic being employed by Redcloak & folks of darkness, they are staying in place until they learn more about where they are going so they can be prepared. But that is besides the point.

And a wizard who gets polymorph any object... to the best of my knowledge is a death machine to most critters depending on creativity of the said person. For example turning the air (if you can consider air an object, if not, well a pebble next to him) around a target into, well, (assuming minimum) 1500 cubic feet room(10fx10fx15f) filled with lava (or any damaging material you would like, from material that has the properties of liquid nitrogen, or acid, or whatever you desire (not that hard to justify knowing about such substances when you deal with alchemy, or, simply drop by an para/quasi elemental plane that dals with cold... fantasy, you know *s*). To stop the material escaping, the exterior can easily be made into cooled, stable version of the same material. or steel.

Of course a sorcerer can make do with the same spell, but, the advantage of being able to enhance your spells without delaying casting time. Heh.

I am personally partial against being a lich, or any other type of undead at all, even though they provide some very good advantages, especially hp-wise. On the average being undead means 16 con. score. Downside, every paladin is out to get you, literally. *grin*

But I digress. A wizard has the advantage of being able to be prepared for any situation with knowledge beforehand, with offensive and defensive selections. Does this give an advantage against a cleric, or a druid? They also have advantages too, but I have yet to see a feat that enables a cleric to cast most of his/her spells without a holy symbol. (if there is any, I would like to learn where it is published at) Eschew materials on the other hand doesnt even modify spell level.

And, being able to Silent, Still, Eschew, Quicken and Energy Substitute a spell, then Silent Still, Eschew, Energy Substitute, Twin another spell for enjoyable amounts of damage, or repeat the last part with repeat spell instead of twin spell while under the effects of an improved invisiblity spell, while still having enough feats to increase the dc's of saves due to the almost excessive amout of feats you receive is not to be underestimated.

Perhaps I am being slightly in favor of wizards, compared to sorcerers, but sorcerer's long term inflexibility, combined with the fact that there is no reason to stay on the class (from a technical view, and please, having a smarter familiar...?) when you fit yourself for any prestige class that has unbroken "+1 arcane spellcaster level" per level and have advantages with no disadvantages compared to a sorcerer equal to your level to balance? Meh.

Okay, wrote too long, will go and fly around a bit.

Not Literally.

[Edit, the polymorph ezxample has been given to point out that an entire class can potentially be made with the abilities of a single arcane spell, or a school of spells, sorry for not being that clear about that, but think of it]

[Juron Pilo]

I prepare teleport before the battle begins. This leaves you with the choice of preparing your Mansion spell and hiding in it, or gaseous form(you can't summon in the same turn as you cast gaseous because if you do it first you can't cast gate, if you gate first and then gas, you break the gate spell. If Mansion you've officially just run away to another dimesion. If you do the later, I use a ring of invisibility and wait for gaseous form to end. You can't cast spells in this case. Do anything else and I basically just teleport behind you after you're done casting your spells and kill you with my next attack.

The situation is reversed. All I need is boots of teleportation, a ring of invis, and vorpal sword. I CAN teleport into your Prismatic Sphere if you choose to cast it right?;-)

edit: even if you go in your mansion, hide in it I don't have to planar teleport. I can just hide invis while your gaseous form fades, then strike you down. Since its literally impossible for you to Gate monsters and be in gaseous form at the same time, I can afford to play the waiting game.

[Timberboar]

Who cares, I win, by raw.

You're reading the RAW, but you don't appear to be understanding it. I kindly suggest you stop now and limit the damage. Remember: Sunken cost is a fallacy! :)


Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance

This garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. It grants the wearer spell resistance 40.

By the time you are able to afford that singular piece of equipment, an equal level wizard will be able to pierce SR 40 easily.


The entire Armor as Damage Reduction page you quote is a varient rule. Its listed under "varients" in the SRD.

Hmm. Forget my first words of advice. I believe they came too late to be helpful.

[Athanatos]

At this point, Juron, you're dealing in ambiguities and obfuscations to the point where I don't even know what it is that I'm supposed to easily refute. Are you trying to claim that Spell Resistance 40 also confers Damage Reduction 40/magic? And what relevance does this Armor as Damage Reduction variant rule have to anything that's being discussed?

In your last several posts you've consistently demonstrated lack of knowledge about how various basic D&D rules work, and you have yet to respond to a vast number of valid points made against you. Fix this.

[Undead Prince]

Wait, can't I still just make my own antimagic armor that actually works? Its a bit of work and the dm might not allow it but technically I can still imbue an armor with the AMF Spell.

Does this need repeating? AMF is owned by Disjunction, end of story.


It will cost a **** ton of resources.

Only 118,800 gp (32,076 gp if you have a basic crafter cohort).

Problem is, it don't solve the problem, dawg.

[Lamech]

Again, this assumes total knowledge of everything that the wizard will encounter and when. This wizard just happens to have spent one of his rare 8th level spell slots and kept it running until this point. He happens to have asked exactly the right question with his divination, and he didn't run into a threat an hour earlier which would have blown it all. Again, the point that I was making is that situation can make all the difference. Just changing all the situational effects back so that the wizard gets the advantage is only reinforcing my point. Let's make this the third encounter of he day for both the fighter and the wizard and see how that changes things...


Another thing to consider is magic items. In all these examples the wizard seems to have exactly the right kind of items, presumeably because the DM allows anyone to pop out and buy a "+3 large-sized unholy burst glaive-guisarme of greater insectoid bane on Tuesdays" from any old handcart, innkeeper or ye olde magikke shoppe. But the fighter can also buy all the items he wishes, and he has the same budget. Yes, the wizard can craft items, but now he's lower level than fighter due to the XP costs. A properly equipped fighter can also fly, be invisible, see invisibility, move rapidly, be ethereal, etc etc.


Wizards are by far the most flexible class - which, if they get the chance to use their flexibility in a given situation, can allow them to be devastating - but this doesn't mean that they are automatically the superkiller auto "I-Win!" cannot-lose megasupreme characters that some people claim they are. Particularly not during the third or fourth encounter of the day.
I'm an idiot! 20th level. Astral projection. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) Why, why, why? Also makes copies of your equitment. (Ring of three wishes anyone?) Just make sure to be really, really well gaurded. Spellbook well gaurded. Of course, I might as well just say IotSFV and call it a day, but whats the fun in that?

Moment of Presience is great. Either that or Mind Blank for your eigth level spell slot. But you said level 20 so both of course. (Although the wizard could have burned it up already, on like say a cohort.) Situation can make a huge differance your right; people seem to think flat planes are the fairest simply because they look the blandest when they can heavily favor certain people. The fighter would have won had you chosen a saner level like say 13. (And that has "don't save just lose" spells so its not really sane.)



And on contact outer plane: Almost no DM will have that spell to see into the future with precision. Because the DM gives you the answer. And the DM can't see into the future with precision. By RAW it can, and possibly by RAI, but in any game? No.





Tangent

I am personally partial against being a lich, or any other type of undead at all, even though they provide some very good advantages, especially hp-wise. On the average being undead means 16 con. score. Downside, every paladin is out to get you, literally. *grin*Why does everone forget the desecrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm)? Why? Any undead wizard who doesn't have that deserves to have his spellbook taken away. Also corspecrafter can be another +2hp/level.

[Athanatos]

Does this need repeating? AMF is owned by Disjunction, end of story.

Only 118,800 gp (32,076 gp if you have a basic crafter cohort).

Problem is, it don't solve the problem, dawg.

Forgive me if I'm missing something that's already been said here, but doesn't Disjunction only have a 20% chance of working? That's pretty unfortunate for the mage. Though of course, as I stated earlier, the anti-magic armor is silly and useless for other reasons.

---

Also, a point of clarification on the proposed Wizard vs. Wizard-Slayer duel. Is the Slayer only allowed to take a combination of base classes, or can he choose prestige classes as well? If the latter, the situation seems entirely unfair, and the wizard should be granted access to some of his own unfair prestige classes (e.g. Incantrix).

[SoC175]

Alright, since you're so fond of the argument: By RAW, clerics aren't allowed to have spells the DM doesn't give them.
Actually clerics, unlikely wizards, automatically have access to all divine spells in existance.

A wizard requires not only that the spell exists, he also needs to get the spell. A cleric automatically gets any spells that exist.

[Omegonthesane]

Forgive me if I'm missing something that's already been said here, but doesn't Disjunction only have a 20% chance of working? That's pretty unfortunate for the mage. Though of course, as I stated earlier, the anti-magic armor is silly and useless for other reasons.

---

Also, a point of clarification on the proposed Wizard vs. Wizard-Slayer duel. Is the Slayer only allowed to take a combination of base classes, or can he choose prestige classes as well? If the latter, the situation seems entirely unfair, and the wizard should be granted access to some of his own unfair prestige classes (e.g. Incantrix).

For best results repeat the duel twice, once with prestige classes and once without. If the Slayer is allowed the optimum broken combo of classes then so is the Wizard; if he isn't, then neither is the Wizard. If you only have time to do the duel once, then it's your call; I'd imagine not bothering with prestige classes would leave fewer of the myriad tactical options to consider.