Did I do the right thing?

[Crispy Dave]

so I caught a few punks taking money from this kid 3 times now. Apparently when he walks home from doing chores for this old lady they demand $5 of the $10 he makes. I was so angry sue to it being the third time that I beat the crap out of them. It wasn't that bad but I'm sure that they will be a little sore the next day or so. To gauge the bullies are 14 and the kid is 12 I am 15.

Update:

1)I found out that one of the bullies gave back that kid a total of $80 that he had taken throughout his bullying time.-success

2)the other kid now is picking on him at school even worse then before. But when Bully 1 is around he doesn't do a thing.

[Serpentine]

Violence is never (or at least rarely) the answer. What exactly was the context of the beating? If it was just a random, disconnected, "this guy bashed us for no good reason!", all you've done is hurt people. You haven't done anything to stop them from doing it again.
What's more, you've pretty much made yourself the bad guy. As the elder teenager, you were in a position of authority over them, and - according to this account - rather than even attempt to talk to them, bring the law onto them (and theft is theft, regardless of age) or even plain threaten them, you went straight into wailing on them.

[yellowmonkal]

Yes you did. And to Serpentine do you really think people like that listen to people because they're older? Yes you will of stopped them doing it and if there were more people like you the world would be much better.

[ZeroNumerous]

To be the devil's advocate: It depends on your morals. The straight black-and-white of it is that you've harmed someone. Right and wrong don't play into it, but legality is an issue as what you've described is simple assault and battery.

Right and wrong are imposed by your own morals, and as such you should ask yourself and not others whether you feel you have done the right thing.

[Innis Cabal]

What's more, you've pretty much made yourself the bad guy. As the elder teenager, you were in a position of authority over them, and - according to this account - rather than even attempt to talk to them, bring the law onto them (and theft is theft, regardless of age) or even plain threaten them, you went straight into wailing on them.

Where do you live where this happens made the difference of anything.


Did you do right? No. Did you do what you felt was right? Yes. Did you do all you could with the things and time given to you? Yes. Thus, justified.

[Serpentine]

Yes you did. And to Serpentine do you really think people like that listen to people because they're older? Yes you will of stopped them doing it and if there were more people like you the world would be much better.By not even trying, he's turned himself into just the next bully up the line. Maybe if he'd just backed up this kid, walked with him, he could have stopped it. He couldn't do that all the time, of course, but nor can he be there all the time to bash some kids. There were other options, many other options, most of them better, and few of them eliminating the option of violence later.
My point, really, was he didn't teach them a lesson. All he's taught them is "Beating people up is a-okay! :smallcool:"
They're thieves, and he's an assaulter. The first kid is still a victim.

edit: ^ I disagree mightily with your last question and answer. There were (without knowing anymore details than given) many, many other options.

[THAC0]

Where do you live where this happens made the difference of anything.


Did you do right? No. Did you do what you felt was right? Yes. Did you do all you could with the things and time given to you? Yes. Thus, justified.

I don't think that beating people up was the only option available in the situation.

[Ichneumon]

Although violence might certainly not be ethical, but it can be very effective. Did you make sure they know why they got beaten up? If so, it might have been the most easy and effective way to make sure they will never bully again.

[V'icternus]

Personally, I'd probably have done the same thing. Anyone with power over someone else who excersises that power to take what isn't rightfully theirs deserves a good knock to the head.

Then again, I would have done it differently. I would have confronted them, told them to give the money back, and told them I would be informing someone of authority. (If it came down to it, the police are a good option).

Then, they would likely proceed to try and attack me, because they outnumber me, and therefore see themselves as not needing to be threatened by me.

Once they've attacked me, anything I do to them is done in self-defense, so beating the crap out of them is fine. (And reduces stress)

If they don't attack me, and hand over the money, then the problem's solved. If they ever do it again, though... well, we'd have to see.


Anyway, what was done wasn't inheritantly wrong, but there were better ways to go about it.

[Crispy Dave]

this is the third time and I have warned them multiple times to stop.

I didn't just run in start swinging I told them to stop and they started giving me smart ass comments and arguments and then I did it.

[averagejoe]

Although violence might certainly not be ethical, but it can be very effective. Did you make sure they know why they got beaten up? If so, it might have been the most easy and effective way to make sure they will never bully again.

Or it taught them to be more cautious about bullying, and to do so more on the sly.

If I was the type to bully that's what I'd learn from it. I wouldn't suddenly stop because I got beaten up once.

Heck, people tend to react to any kind of pain by lashing out at other people; with bullies I'd imagine this is especially so, given the willingness to hurt others.

[THAC0]

this is the third time and I have warned them multiple times to stop.

I didn't just run in start swinging I told them to stop and they started giving me smart ass comments and arguments and then I did it.

From a legal standpoint, smart ass comments do not justify assault/battery.

Did you tell an adult in authority?

[V'icternus]

this is the third time and I have warned them multiple times to stop.

I didn't just run in start swinging I told them to stop and they started giving me smart ass comments and arguments and then I did it.

Well, it still would have been better if they attacked you first, but all in all, beating them up (though you might have to do it a few more times to get the message to sink in) wasn't the wrong thing to do.

Honestly, if they can't take being bullied, why'd they start doing it? Never give out what you can't take.

[KIDS]

While I think warning them to stay away and demanding that they give back the stolen money first would have been the proper first choice as well, I would not like all the replies here to discourage you. Despite your actions probably being not the best in this situation, it is rare to see someone who genuinely cares about what is happening to that kid and goes out of his way to protect them. If more people were like that, the world would be a much better place.

Cheers! :smallsmile:

p.s. after your added post, I don't have any complaints except that it will maybe cause more violence in the future (see Gran Torino for example). But once again, thanks for looking out for him. Maybe informing their parents would still be the best choice.

p.s.

Honestly, if they can't take being bullied, why'd they start doing it? Never give out what you can't take.

The part of the problem with bullies is that they don't have the moral integrity to realize "do unto others as you would like them to do unto yourself". If they had it and took this as a logical punishment for what they had been doing, then they wouldn't have been bullies in the first place.

[Anuan]

Been in the same situation.
I did the same thing. It worked.
And I'd do it again, no hesitations, if the age-ratio was the same.
Violence isn't necessary in most cases, but often effective and quite often a viable solution.

[V'icternus]

I find the best way to implement morals in someone is to force them in there. And, because I don't have any other way of doing it, fear works fine. As long as the problem is gone, I don't care what I did to do it.

Yes, this mentality could lead to me going to prison for stopping a murderor in todays society. Go figure...

[Haruki-kun]

so I caught a few punks taking money from this kid 3 times now. Apparently when he walks home from doing chores for this old lady they demand $5 of the $10 he makes. I was so angry sue to it being the third time that I beat the crap out of them. It wasn't that bad but I'm sure that they will be a little sore the next day or so. To gauge the bullies are 14 and the kid is 12 I am 15.

Chaotic, but Good.

As long as you didn't badly hurt them, I think you did the right thing. Some people don't learn any other way.

[Serpentine]

While I think warning them to stay away and demanding that they give back the stolen money first would have been the proper first choice as well, I would not like all the replies here to discourage you. Despite your actions probably being not the best in this situation, it is rare to see someone who genuinely cares about what is happening to that kid and goes out of his way to protect them. If more people were like that, the world would be a much better place.Oh yes, absolutely! While I think you could have done it better, good on you for doing anything at all :smallsmile:
What really, really gets to me is this horrible pervasive attitude that just because it's between school students, theft, abuse, intimidation and assault don't count. What I think should have been done:
The idiot bullies confronted, and told to stop it. A lecture, if you're any good at it. If they don't stop...
The nearest police officer told. If the police officer laughs it off, doesn't care, etc, get very self-righteous, and
Go to the police station. Report the officer who laughed it off, as well as the regular theft. Follow up on what's being done. If that is "nothing"...
Take it to the freaking media! Police are failing to stop a crime being commited, and against a child what's more! This stupid attitude needs to stop, and it won't stop until people stop letting it be okay.
Somewhere in there could be a confrontation with their parents, too.

[KuReshtin]

Honestly, if they can't take being bullied, why'd they start doing it? Never give out what you can't take.

I've found that often, people who bully are the ones who can't take bullying in the first place, and because of that, they start bullying.
They try to make themselves to be more than they are to hide the fact that they're afraid. That's also why they tend to roam in groups, because there is strength in numbers.

If there had been several warnings about them taking this kid's money before this incident, I feel that a bit of a thrashing might have been warranted. However, there is also the possibility of a backlash, if these kids now go back to their parents and start crying to them that an older kid beat them upm which could get you in trouble as well.

[Cubey]

Really Serpentine, you think bullies would listen to lectures? At best they'd laugh you off, at worst they'd try to attack you. Although that'd mean beating them up becomes a viable self-defense option...
I also think the Police has more important things to do than look around for $5 thieves. It may be a lot of cash for a kid, but it's such an insignificant sum of money that no court would sentence you for that. Especially not in my country, but then my country's courts wouldn't sentence someone for beating an other person up (unless serious injury occured), and it could be different elsewhere.
Also, if you want to stop bullies, intimidating them is a good option. And you can't do it by sicing the cops on them. If anything, it'll make them think you're weak because you can't do stuff like that by yourself.

Crispy, I'd say you did good. There might've been better options, but what wasn't done doesn't matter. What matters is what you have done.

[Serpentine]

I'm not just talking about making them stop, I'm also talking about protecting himself. I was playing marbles alone in the playground once, and a couple of kids came and took it over. I told them to stop it, and they made fun of me. So I kicked one of them in the bum, and he went crying to the teacher. The teacher came and I got into trouble. Why? Because I was the oldest child, and I resorted to violence first. (as an aside, bursting into tears is a really good way to get out of trouble...)
These young men may very well go talk to their parents or the police, and then he is the one who will get into trouble, much more trouble, because he is the one who was violent first, whose crime can be proven, and who didn't seek other help. The fact that he had tried to talk to them first helps a lot, but he didn't say that to start with, and he has no proof.
As for your comment about the police, Cubey, that is exactly the sort of attitude I'm talking about. By ignoring it as "insignificant", they are effectively telling these kids that "stealing is totally fine, it's not a big deal, don't worry about it." And who says sentencing would have to happen? I'd think that just having a police officer come knock on the door and sternly tell their parents that their child has been bullying and stealing from another, younger child should send a pretty powerful message.
As for the idea that telling a figure of authority will make you weak, that is, again, exactly the attitude I utterly dispise, and you are just legitimising it. The idea of "squealers" and crap like that is incredibly out of date and incredibly harmful, it carries on outside of school, and it needs to be opposed.

[Cubey]

I am aware that these are not productive points of view. Neither do I share them, I just presented how a bully thinks.

However, this is how the majority thinks. In my country, at least. Things could be entirely different in the US. Here, the authority thinks little of people beating the crap out of each other if no one gets seriously hurt (or is famous - double standards, I know), or stealing items of insignificant value. The fact that it happens pretty often is obviously related. This is not pretty and must be changed, but if I were in a situation like Crispy Dave, I'd have three options:
1. Try to stop the bullies by resorting to authority, which as I said above is from my experience totally ineffective,
2. Try to change the society so that resorting to authority is effective, which will take many years and therefore while a good option, is not the one that will matter at the moment where measures must be taken right now,
3. Try to stop the bullies by resorting to intimidation, which may include physical force. Which is the only one that works for the moment.

[SilverSheriff]

so I caught a few punks taking money from this kid 3 times now. Apparently when he walks home from doing chores for this old lady they demand $5 of the $10 he makes. I was so angry sue to it being the third time that I beat the crap out of them. It wasn't that bad but I'm sure that they will be a little sore the next day or so. To gauge the bullies are 14 and the kid is 12 I am 15.

Crispy Dave for Paladin in the Playground.:smalltongue:

[Tengu_temp]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, you did, and let nobody tell you otherwise. From my experience, people who say that violence is not the answer are almost exclusively those who have never been in such situations themselves.

[Nameless]

Yes, I think you did do the right thing. Believe me when I say (talking from experience) talking DOES NOT solve the problem with these kind of kids. But as soon as they get a good smack they stop dead in their tracks. I know this for a fact.

Well done for standing up for him, it takes a lot of guts to do something like that, even if they are younger... Though maybe you could of have given them at least one chance. :smalltongue:

We need more people in the world who don’t just walk past and ignore things like this. Bullying sickens me.

And if they ever do it again, smack the twice as hard, and if they do it AGAIN, three times as hard. It sounds harsh, but a broken nose can actually help these kids sometimes.

[V'icternus]

In fact, depending on where you live, helping someone else like that is an extension of self-defence.

[SDF]

I think it's good you saw injustice and tried to do something about it. I think it is unfortunate that violence was the solution that presented itself. I certainly don't feel bad for the thugs robbing the little kid, there was certainly no permanent damage to them, and I couldn't say they didn't have something coming to them. I would say, however, now that this happened if you see it again you should call the police on them. Don't bother with parents as theirs have pretty obviously failed them and the only real option another adult has is to call the police as well.

[snoopy13a]

To the OP:

Ethically and morally, what you did was fine. Legally, not so much.

For those who say violence isn't the answer:

Our society is maintained through the use of police. If necessary, the police will resort to violence in order to regulate it. Additionally, countries have maintained armies to deter and hopefully prevent aggressive nations from attacking. If these nations do attack, the army uses violence to defend itself.

As awful as it is to say it:

Violence is the answer. Violence itself or the threat of violence keeps violent people from disrupting society and hurting people.

[Nameless]

To the OP:

Ethically and morally, what you did was fine. Legally, not so much.

For those who say violence isn't the answer:

Our society is maintained through the use of police. If necessary, the police will resort to violence in order to regulate it. Additionally, countries have maintained armies to deter and hopefully prevent aggressive nations from attacking. If these nations do attack, the army uses violence to defend itself.

As awful as it is to say it:

Violence is the answer. Violence itself or the threat of violence keeps violent people from disrupting society and hurting people.

Violence doesn’t solve anything… Apart from all of the worlds major problems. :smalltongue:
Not that it doesn't cause problems as well.

[Dirk Kris]

Chaotic, but Good.

As long as you didn't badly hurt them, I think you did the right thing. Some people don't learn any other way.

Ruki said it right.

[Canadian]

You did it all wrong! They robbed the kid of $5.00 three times in a row. That means they owe him $15.00 plus interest.

Find the kids and beat them up again. Take $15.00 from them plus let's say another $5.00 in interest. Then take the rest of their money and explain that you're doing it to teach them how it feels to be the robbery victim.

Then find the kid you helped and give him the money and explain that he owes you one for helping him. Then ask if his sister or mom is hot. :smallwink:

Seriously get that money back. Also be careful that they have not upgraded to knives or guns since then. You never know.:smallbiggrin:

[reorith]

Crispy Dave, i'm disappointed in you. :smallfrown: if they could walk away under their own effort, you didn't beat them hard enough. but good work kid, now you have to worry about retaliatory actions on the part of their friends.

for your valiant actions +10
resorting to violence +10
not taking a trophy from any of them - 10 each

see me after class.
edit: http://www.freeinfosociety.com/pdfs/military/handtohandcombat.pdf

[Jack Squat]

I feel you had good intentions, and didn't do the wrong thing, per se, it just could have been better.

There's something called the continuum of force that you need to look into.

{table]Level|Description|Actions
1 |Compliant (Cooperative) |Verbal commands
2 |Resistant (Passive) |Contact controls
3 |Resistant (Active) |Compliance techniques
4 |Assaultive (Bodily Harm) |Defensive tactics
5 |Assaultive (Serious Bodily Harm/Death)|Deadly force[/table]

This is copied from a Marine Corp handbook, so for a civilian, I'd actually replace "contact controls" with verbal commands as well, since shoving somebody can be construed as assault, but situation may vary.*

All in all, I think you did the right thing, albeit clumsily.

*depending on area, you may be allowed to do a citizens arrest, as I believe in most areas in the US strongarm robbery is a felony.**

**I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

[Grey Paladin]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, you did, and let nobody tell you otherwise. From my experience, people who say that violence is not the answer are almost exclusively those who have never been in such situations themselves.

++ ;

[Erloas]

Without knowing more details I would pretty much agree with what Crispy Dave did. At that age things work a lot different then they do when you are older. Police for the most part aren't going to do anything, the most they can do is give them a lecture that really won't result in anything. The only way it might is if the parents also do a lot after the police talk to them. The bullies aren't really going to care if just a police officer gives them a lecture because they know 99% of the time no officer is going to be around to do anything about it. However if they know older people in the area (other adults, or in this case their peers) that are always going to be around it will do a lot more to change how they act.

Unless Crispy knows the bullies personally, like where they live, then there is very little chance of actually telling a police officer about it and having anything done about it. Its not like they are going to wait around for 30 minutes while Crispy finds an officer and has them come over. If he doesn't really know who they are then there is no way to tell any authority figure about it that is going to lead to anything.

Besides, its not like fighting is at all uncommon for kids. Even growing up in a small town (<12k, less then 40k in the entire county, so its not like its a suburb) I know very few teenage boys that don't get into fights at least once or twice, its just something that happens. And unless it actually happens in a school almost nothing ever comes of it, and even if it does happen at school its usually not a big deal unless its a reoccurring thing for one more more of the parties involved. *granted things may have changed since I was in that age group, but I doubt it would have changed that much.

[Krrth]

I'd have to say, I think you did the right thing. It may not have been the most optimal solution, but in the world we live in, very few things really are.

Depending on where this took place (I believe you live in the US, correct?) you may or may not have trouble over this. The farther south you go, the more likely you are that the police would tell you "Good Job". Same for proximity to a military base and the "country".

[Crispy Dave]

Honestly I would rather not have the police do anything. I believe the government is there to do the things we can't do ourselves so since I was able to take care of it it shouldn't be a problem.

I also made sure the bullies were aware I carried a knife with me at all times:smallamused:

[H. Zee]

If I'd been in the same position as you, Crispy, I'd have antagonized them verbally to the point where they were the ones who attacked first. That way, it's self-defence, and there's no moral grey.

[Jack Squat]

I also made sure the bullies were aware I carried a knife with me at all times:smallamused:

Bad.

Not only is that brandishing a weapon, but from a non-legal point of view, trying to use a knife in defense of a mugging is about the surest way of getting injured. If you must, learn how to knife fight first.

I myself prefer Bata.

[Crispy Dave]

Bad.

Not only is that brandishing a weapon, but from a non-legal point of view, trying to use a knife in defense of a mugging is about the surest way of getting injured. If you must, learn how to knife fight first.

I myself prefer Bata.

lol I wouldn't use it in a fight not this knife at least. Its just for a bit of fear. Ive been looking into buying some throwing knives either that or a tomahawk.

[Canadian]

They better watch out. They might get CUT!

[Jack Squat]

lol I wouldn't use it in a fight not this knife at least. Its just for a bit of fear. Ive been looking into buying some throwing knives either that or a tomahawk.

Anything thrown is fairly useless against moving targets, since they're moving. Also, if you miss, you don't really get another chance at it.

Even if this (http://burrowowl.net/shimmie/get.php/16684%20-%20axe%20backflip%20boots%20hatchet%20photo%20spet snaz.jpg)looks completely bad ass, it's not practical.

For non-firearm weapon use in a fight, you want something you can do melee with. A collapsible baton can be a good choice if legal in your area , a fixed blade knife (again, if legal), or a kubaton make good choices. A roll of pennies makes a good hand weight.

Good pepper spray is effective to stop attacks on certain individuals, and even then, it can take up to 30 seconds to have an effect. I still carry mine occasionally, but I'm not about to rely soley on it.

[V'icternus]

On the knife thing? Bad! *Smacks your hand* No weapons! They need to fear you, not your weapon.

[Crispy Dave]

Anything thrown is fairly useless against moving targets, since they're moving. Also, if you miss, you don't really get another chance at it.

Even if this (http://burrowowl.net/shimmie/get.php/16684%20-%20axe%20backflip%20boots%20hatchet%20photo%20spet snaz.jpg)looks completely bad ass, it's not practical.

For non-firearm weapon use in a fight, you want something you can do melee with. A collapsible baton can be a good choice if legal in your area , a fixed blade knife (again, if legal), or a kubaton make good choices. A roll of pennies makes a good hand weight.

Good pepper spray is effective to stop attacks on certain individuals, and even then, it can take up to 30 seconds to have an effect. I still carry mine occasionally, but I'm not about to rely soley on it.

Also 2 liters of diet Dr. pepper work well. I've used them before in a fight

[Nameless]

Anything thrown is fairly useless against moving targets, since they're moving. Also, if you miss, you don't really get another chance at it.

Even if this (http://burrowowl.net/shimmie/get.php/16684%20-%20axe%20backflip%20boots%20hatchet%20photo%20spet snaz.jpg)looks completely bad ass, it's not practical.

For non-firearm weapon use in a fight, you want something you can do melee with. A collapsible baton can be a good choice if legal in your area , a fixed blade knife (again, if legal), or a kubaton make good choices. A roll of pennies makes a good hand weight.

Good pepper spray is effective to stop attacks on certain individuals, and even then, it can take up to 30 seconds to have an effect. I still carry mine occasionally, but I'm not about to rely soley on it.

It doesn’t matter if it’s not practical. These are un-educated silly teenagers that obviously don’t understand anything about the real world. If they see something that looks badass, they’ll be scared.

I had a colection of knives but I've lost a lot of them. :(
I have about 4 or 5 left.

[Crispy Dave]

It doesn’t matter if it’s not practical. These are un-educated silly teenagers that obviously don’t understand anything about the real world. If they see something that looks badass, they’ll be scared.

I had a colection of knives but I've lost a lot of them. :(
I have about 4 or 5 left.

actually I can throw knives:smallbiggrin: Boy scouts ftw

[reorith]

Honestly I would rather not have the police do anything. I believe the government is there to do the things we can't do ourselves so since I was able to take care of it it shouldn't be a problem.

I also made sure the bullies were aware I carried a knife with me at all times:smallamused:

:/ get a crowbar. or a stick. or a can of axe and a bic lighter.

in knife fight, you're bound to get cut. if you're good enough, you get to pick where.


Bad.

Not only is that brandishing a weapon, but from a non-legal point of view, trying to use a knife in defense of a mugging is about the surest way of getting injured. If you must, learn how to knife fight first.

I myself prefer Bata.

seconded. according to some some study i read over the span of my collegiate career, used as means of self defense in a mugging, rates of injury fall at
resisting with a gun 6%
doing nothing at all 25%
resisting with a knife 40%
non-violent resistance 45%

[Ichneumon]

Our society only functions because of the systematic use of violence of the government to enforce justice and order. Using violence is not by definition unethical.

[Nameless]

actually I can throw knives:smallbiggrin: Boy scouts ftw

*Puts three fingers up*
I was a scout untill I got got fed up with the group. :smalltongue:
I think I was one for about 7 years.

[reorith]

actually I can throw knives:smallbiggrin: Boy scouts ftw

Crispy Dave, if i ever catch you throwing a knife, it'll be a corner off of your totin' chit :smallmad:

[Jack Squat]

It doesn’t matter if it’s not practical. These are un-educated silly teenagers that obviously don’t understand anything about the real world. If they see something that looks badass, they’ll be scared.

That doesn't mean that one needs to put themselves in unnecessary danger to scare them.

Besides, from a legal standpoint, one shouldn't show a weapon before the point that you think your life or well-being may be in danger otherwise. From a practical standpoint, once that point hits, a pack of throwing knives/stars/axes isn't the best option.

[Nameless]

Crispy Dave, if i ever catch you throwing a knife, it'll be a corner off of your totin' chit :smallmad:

You're no fun! :smallyuk:


That doesn't mean that one needs to put themselves in unnecessary danger to scare them.

Besides, from a legal standpoint, one shouldn't show a weapon before the point that you think your life or well-being may be in danger otherwise. From a practical standpoint, once that point hits, a pack of trowing knives/stars/axes isn't the best option.

And from a legal standpoint, you shouldn't be mugging and threatening someone. :smalltongue:

[Crispy Dave]

Crispy Dave, if i ever catch you throwing a knife, it'll be a corner off of your totin' chit :smallmad:

no I actually use throwing knives not just pocket knives.

[Jack Squat]

And from a legal standpoint, you shouldn't be mugging and threatening someone. :smalltongue:

Yes, like I said earlier, citizen's arrests are allowed in a lot of areas if a felony (strongarm/armed robbery) is being committed. Self Defense is also legal in most areas.

However, if you're not the one being mugged, a whole can of worms opens on what you can/can't do. If I saw a guy jaywalking, I wouldn't draw down on him. Both are illegal (under the circumstances), but one will get you in a lot more trouble.

The force continuum I showed above is used throughout police and military organizations, you're a lot less likely to get in trouble if you follow it as well.

[reorith]

no I actually use throwing knives not just pocket knives.

well then, that shuts me up.

[THAC0]

Our society only functions because of the systematic use of violence of the government to enforce justice and order. Using violence is not by definition unethical.

Bolded for emphasis. :smallwink:

[zeratul]

so I caught a few punks taking money from this kid 3 times now. Apparently when he walks home from doing chores for this old lady they demand $5 of the $10 he makes. I was so angry sue to it being the third time that I beat the crap out of them. It wasn't that bad but I'm sure that they will be a little sore the next day or so. To gauge the bullies are 14 and the kid is 12 I am 15.

I have to say that I heartily approve, that took balls man. Good on ya . I would however say you should also tell the kids they've been messing with to tell his parents and maybe authorities about the situation. But overall I think especially since you're dealing with bullies who have been doing this repeatedly this was a good move.

The problem with trying to work with authorities on things like this is that generally kids get off pretty light. Suspension , giving the money back, grounding, these are the things which would occur and they wouldn't do much. They'd go back to messing with people. So something like this after they've repeatedly done this and he has warned them is a good move. And 15 to 14 year old hardly constitutes him being an authority figure over them and he's barely an elder so It's not like hes some big dude beating up little kids or something.

[ufo]

I'd love to see them try that again. Good on ya.

Watch your back, though. Those kinds of kids usually have a few dozen people ready to back them up if they feel they need to screw someone over - and to be honest, if they want to screw someone over now, it's gonna be you.

[valadil]

You did a good thing. It may not have been the most righteous option available, but good job.

I'm of the opinion that the parents of the kids doing the mugging should be informed somehow. I don't want to encourage taddling on them but their parents have a right to know and a responsibility to do something.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

OP: I support your actions, and would have done the same. As for the comments about weapons, having one concealed is smart, brandishing it is not. One should only up the ante in a fight if it is needed.

[THAC0]

I'm of the opinion that the parents of the kids doing the mugging should be informed somehow. I don't want to encourage taddling on them but their parents have a right to know and a responsibility to do something.

Agree x100000000.

Nothing bugs me more than when someone starts complaining about how I handled (or didn't handle) a situation with my students when no one told me in the first place. Adults are not all-knowing.

ETA: there is a big difference between tattling and telling an adult when something bad is going on.

[Erts]

Morally?
Yes.
Does anything else really matter?
Don't worry about the law. 14 year old idiots don't call the cops because they were humiliated, they try for personel revenge. That is, they personally might will try to get you back.
Watch your back walking in the neighborhood.

[Eon]

To tell you the truth... I would have tried to talk to them about it... Then I may have tried walking with the kid but one day a bunch of their friends could get together to beat you up and then telling a parental unit is advisable. If it continues to happen (some parents might not care... and yell at you for interfering or something) then you may swing at them
^
not likely but may still happen...:smallannoyed:

[FdL]

Crispy, you did the right thing. It's not so complicated as this three page thread might suggest.

[Lamech]

Umm... as serpentine said you should have gotten the police involved. They are much better equipped to handle such things, and it is far more likely to have a lasting impact on their behavior. I would like to add that when getting police involved documentation is wise, both of the police since they might laugh this off, and the actual crime since evidence will be required. (And by documentation I mean recordings, but make sure it is legal.)

[Recaiden]

You did a right thing. But as people have said, there were better options.

[darkblust]

Good job.You did what you thought was right,and that is what matters.You had the strength to do something about it.Good job:smallbiggrin:

[RS14]

I personally approve. I suggest you learn to make sure the law is on your side before you reach adulthood, though, lest you wind up with a criminal record.

[GoC]

Big pluses for doing something (:smallcool:), a big minus for the whole knife thing (DO NOT TEACH THEM THAT THEY NEED TO CARRY KNIVES DAMNIT!:smallmad:), and an unkown constant related to alternative options that depends on where you live.
Wether this is positive or negative depends on the constant but I think it's likely positive.:smallsmile:

*gives aproval*

[Coidzor]

So how'd you find out they were doing this?

[Winter_Wolf]

My thoughts on this are that "the right thing" in this case is mostly a subjective point of view. Crispy_Dave, do you feel you handled the situation in the best way you could have? If you feel that you did the only thing that you could have, or that it was the best of a bad lot, then don't worry about it, but accept that in the future there maybe repercussions. Or not. You never really know, and the only thing that I can offer you is that if you have a clean conscience, then don't dwell on it overmuch. If you feel guilty, then it's probably because you feel like you didn't handle it as well as you think you could have.

Unlike some other people, I do feel that violence is the answer more often than people believe it to be. Let's face it, sad as it is to admit, some people will never understand nor listen to anything other than a thumping. That said, I truly don't advocate violence if there's a better way.

[Crispy Dave]

So how'd you find out they were doing this?

That was the third time I was walking to/from town and saw them doing it.

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Bor Story Time...

While sitting in a park on Long Island, approximately six years ago, and reading a book under the shade of a tree, I heard a loud slap from across the field, followed by a female shout. Disabled or not, I was intent on seeing no one get hurt.

I crossed the field to find a young couple, both 17. She was in tears, the left side of her face turning bright read, and all but cowering in fear. He was staring at her angrily, threatening to hit her again.

Now, I'm a sucker for a pretty face, and I'd seen this girl around town. Not only was she beautiful, but her ears had just the slightest point to them, making me think of her as an elf or a pixie. As his hand print became more visible on her face, it became more than obvious. He'd slapped her, and done so hard enough to be heard some distance away.

Me: What do you think you're doing?
Him: None of your business.
Me: I'm making it my business. Does smacking girls around make you feel like a man?
Her: (softly) Really, you don't have to do this.
Him: Get lost.
Me: No, I don't think I will. In fact, why don't you take me on. I'm even handicapped, which should make you happy.
Him: Do you know who my father is? I'll go get him, y'know.
Me: Let me get this straight. Slapping around a girl is okay, but when someone who can defend themselves comes along, you run to get daddy. Is that it?
Him: (like a petulant child) No.
Me: Then take a swing at me, tough guy, and let's find out if you're a real man.
Him: I don't have to take this.
Me: (as he stomped away) Be sure you bring daddy back so I can tell him he's rearing a thug.

I spoke to the girl briefly, only to find out they they had the "perfect" abusive relationship. He frequently slapped her around, and she took it, believing she deserved it. I told her then and there that the smartest thing she could do was leave the jerk. In fact, she didn't need to always cling to a handsome guy, especially the abusive ones. There are many others out there, and she was too pretty to be trapped in a relationship with a jerk.

When I relayed this tale to my roommate at the time, (I was still living in boarding houses), he said I could've gotten in a lot of trouble if I touched the kid, and that I shouldn't have gotten involved. I apologized to him and said, "While chivalry may lie in an intensive care unit, slowly dying, some of us are trying to keep it alive. And, really, what would have happened if I hit the kid? I'm made of glass. He could've flattened me with one shot. I was no threat...I just look like a threat." And I do, as I still have a broad chest, despite being disabled. I only look dangerous.

The moral of the story is that bullies are only as tough as the weaklings they pick on. I would have confronted them verbally, and had they raised a hand in anger, defended myself. You should also find out where they live and let their parents know they're in the process of rearing wanna-be criminals. Their current behavior is a glimpse of things to come. And if those parents do nothing, then you contact the police. They were, after all, committing a crime.

For now...Well, you acted on instinct, just as I did. You came to the defense of someone weaker. All well and good, but you could have landed in a lot of trouble for the lumps you dished out. In the future, try to keep your head, and keep your hands to yourself.

Here endeth the lesson. :smallsmile:

[GoC]

Bor: The difference there is that you were an adult while he was a minor.
In Crispy Dave's case all were about the same age.

btw: What do you mean by disabled?

[Bor the Barbarian Monk]

Bor: The difference there is that you were an adult while he was a minor.
In Crispy Dave's case all were about the same age.

btw: What do you mean by disabled?
Hence, the advice being good, as it comes from one who is older, if not wiser.

As for being disabled...I am physically and psychologically disabled. One of my issues being that I'm dead for over 23 years (http://sometimeswrite.blogspot.com/2009/05/14-april-1986.html). But I'm recovering nicely from that. :smalltongue:

[Serpentine]

Bor: The difference there is that you were an adult while he was a minor.
In Crispy Dave's case all were about the same age.So it's okay for people to bash each other, as long as they're the same age? And they weren't the same age, he was at least one or two years older than them. Doesn't seem like much, but in the teenage years that can be a lot - even the difference between pre- and post-puberty.

[Coidzor]

So it's okay for people to bash each other, as long as they're the same age? And they weren't the same age, he was at least one or two years older than them. Doesn't seem like much, but in the teenage years that can be a lot - even the difference between pre- and post-puberty.

Indeed, socially, fighting between young people is less frowned upon than, say, being such a douchebag that you regularly break the bones of your wife. It's just that the way western societies are set up, there's slightly more that can be done about youth violence.

Like expel them from school for having a squirt-gun in their trunk...:smallsigh:

Suffice to say, yes, violence is wrong. Standing by while wrong is being done is also wrong.

[Haarkla]

so I caught a few punks taking money from this kid 3 times now. Apparently when he walks home from doing chores for this old lady they demand $5 of the $10 he makes. I was so angry sue to it being the third time that I beat the crap out of them. It wasn't that bad but I'm sure that they will be a little sore the next day or so. To gauge the bullies are 14 and the kid is 12 I am 15.

Yes, definitely.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Kudos to Dave! I remember being a scrawny coward as a little kid, and it would have been awesome to have somebody to stand up for me. Of course I told the authorites (teachers, parents, etc) when people picked on me, but that didn't do jack. People stopped messing with me once I hit puberty and gained a lot of height/muscle. I never got in any fights, because I didn't have to :smallbiggrin:

The way I see it, reporting anything to the authorities in this particular situation would be largely innefectual (both the stealing, and Dave's paladin-esque beatdown), due to the tacit assumption in the U.S. that "boys will be boys", and that as long as there isn't anything serious going on (grand larceny, GTA, assault with a deadly weapon), it will take care of itself. Hopefully these bullies you beat up are cowardly enough (as many bullies are) that their desire will not be "lets get 10 guys and jump Dave after school", but "omg, if you see that guy again, run!"

In this case, what he did, while illegal, was morally right. As much of a staunch liberal as I am, it pains me to see people relying on the cops/govt for everyting. In ye oldenne dayes, the community banded together to take care of each other. Now, I don't live under any kind of delusions that the 1800s was a great time to live in (especially if you weren't white), but the people certainly seemed to care about their neighbors more than we do now. Hell, I don't even know the people that live next to me in my own neighborhood! I blame this disconnent for a whole host of social ills that are currently inflicting the industrialized world, but that is a post for another time.


So it's okay for people to bash each other, as long as they're the same age? And they weren't the same age, he was at least one or two years older than them. Doesn't seem like much, but in the teenage years that can be a lot - even the difference between pre- and post-puberty.

Yep, this is pretty much an unwritten "rule of the playground" if you will, along with "don't hit girls" and "don't hit kid with glasses".

In my elementary school, do you know what the boys did every recess period? They beat the tar out of each other, in giant melees. And honestly, if I hadn't been such a cowardly shrimp back then, I totally would have joined them. Nobody ever got seriously hurt, and it all seemed to be in good fun, in that actual in-school fights were rare, and nobody really had any animosity towards each other.

Now, in middle school, recess was abolished and we actually did have some in-school fights, including a very scary incident in which one of the guys in my 7th grade spanish class started beating the hell out of this girl for no concievable reason. The guy was 15 too (we were all 12), and very muscular (he also had a mullet haircut if I recall). Thankfully a security guard made it in time before she was seriously injured.

So obviously that last incident shows that sometimes, a situation is in fact too severe to be stopped by a normal person, and they need to find someone who does in fact have the power. If some robbers are holding up a 7-eleven with Ak-47's, you won't see me anywhere near there!


For all y'all in this thread who equate violence with bullying:

Lets say someone (person A) found out that a 12-year old was getting money from a paper route, and so beat the kid up for the money, and then started menacing him for the money each week. That would be bullying.

Now, Lets say someone (person B) found out that about what person A was doing. Person B goes in, kicks person A's ass, and tells him that if he ever does it again, an even worse assbeating will come. That would be righteous retribution.

Violence and fear aren't particularly enlightened means of behavioural control, but they are often effective, which partly explains their widespread popularity throughout history. I would be interested in reading a study comparing the punitive efficacy of, say, flogging vs. jail time (which clearly doesn't work all that well, if the U.S. recidivism rate is any guide).


Am I the only one who finds it ironic that some people are claiming violence to never be a solution, despite this being the fan community for a webcomic in which violence is very frequently the solution? Cognitive dissonance much? Obviously petty theft (and that is what this was, its not worthy of a press conference) and Xykon's evil chicanery are on a bit of a different scale, but my point still stands.


Another question to ponder: Lets say the parents of the theives believed in corporal punishment (its still common in America, especially among lower-income folks). If Dave had told the parents, do you think the beatdown they would have inflicted would have been more or less severe?

I'd like to end this overly long post with a quote from the heart-warming movie, "Bad Santa". The titular character had just befriended a fat, feeble, possibly learning-disabled boy, who was frequently taunted and harassed by older children. Santa then beat the everloving piss out of those children.

Santa: I beat the **** out of some kids today. But it was for a purpose. It made me feel good about myself. It was like I did something constructive with my life or something, I dunno, like I accomplished something.


EDIT: I just realized that the browser I typed this into has doesn't have spell check. Oh God, what have I done!

[Telonius]

IMO, the ideal response would be to teach the bullied kid some self-defense so he could kick the crap out of the bullies. :belkar:

I'm also a big believer in handling things at the lowest possible level. Don't go to the parents, or the school, or the cops, if you can settle it (legally) yourself. (Proportional self-defense is legal in every jurisdiction I know of). If you can't handle it yourself, then ask for help or take it up a level. Part of the trick is knowing when a problem is larger than you can reasonably handle, and that does take experience.

[GoC]

So it's okay for people to bash each other, as long as they're the same age? And they weren't the same age, he was at least one or two years older than them. Doesn't seem like much, but in the teenage years that can be a lot - even the difference between pre- and post-puberty.

1x15 vs 2x14
Sound like a fight biased against him.
And yes, I don't see what is so wrong about a few bruises. As long as no bones are broken and noone's being repeatedly picked on...


Violence and fear aren't particularly enlightened means of behavioural control
They are, however, the most effective and often the only means.

[Renegade Paladin]

You did the right thing right up until brandishing the knife. Using a knife in self-defense is a bad idea, especially when untrained in doing so, and by letting them know you have it, you've made it more likely that you may have to if they get it into their heads to try to get even; since they know you carry a knife at all times (so do I, but not as a weapon), they're likely to prepare accordingly. Someone already alluded to the old knife fighting adage of only getting to choose where you get cut, but from my limited training in knife fighting (I study Western martial arts and historical fencing, and one of my instructors decided to break out the foam knives one day for a change of pace), let me tell you it's absolutely true; even the instructor in question, who has over a decade of training and practice under his belt, was hit by his own "knife" more often than not.

Up until that point, however, in my estimation you did the morally correct thing. By engaging in violence-backed extortion, they removed their own right and expectation of non-violent treatment, and using force to make them stop became a more than viable solution, especially after giving them the benefit of warning anyway.

[reorith]

You did the right thing right up until brandishing the knife. Using a knife in self-defense is a bad idea, especially when untrained in doing so, and by letting them know you have it, you've made it more likely that you may have to if they get it into their heads to try to get even; since they know you carry a knife at all times (so do I, but not as a weapon), they're likely to prepare accordingly.

good call, Renegade Paladin. the knife automatically loses much of its potential the instant your opponent becomes aware of it. this is more or less true for all weapons but it is preferable to conceal small weapons until they are actually needed.

also, sap gloves are a lot of fun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP_gloves)

[Telonius]

One more word about force not solving anything... I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Suppose somebody robs you and you go to the authorities. They send the police after the mugger. The police do not politely ask the guy if he'd mind very much getting into the handcuffs. If he's convicted, they do not put him in a room with an open door and nicely ask him to please stay there for a few months. Force is always applied to solve the problem, even if you're not the one applying it. Whether that force is used responsibly or irresponsibly is an open question. Responsible use of force usually means, using the smallest amount necessary to solve the problem.

[Decoy Lockbox]

They are, however, the most effective and often the only means.

I think you missed the part right after that where I acknowledged that fact :smallbiggrin:


Violence and fear aren't particularly enlightened means of behavioural control, but they are often effective, which partly explains their widespread popularity throughout history.

When you say "often" how often do you mean? Should we be horsewhipping incompetant corporate types for getting us into this recession? I assume you mean "when they use violence, you use it right back"?

[Supagoof]

Y'know - The legal route may be an alternative course, it would even be a preferred course, but given the age range I'm not certain it is as big a deal for this situation as with others.

Yeah, they thugs could get the cops involved saying that Crispy attacked them. So the cops show up at Crispy's house and have a talk with his parents. End of story. Cops aren't going to lock anyone up based on say so, and if this is in the US, at 18 any "criminal" record stays in the juvenile system and doesn't affect adult life. So it's not like Crispy will be running for Mayor and have this issue brought up to condemn him as a criminal. Regardless, the path of following up with the police and police supervisors if they don't do anything is a longer road to travel down, and doesn't send the same message.

Sure, we'd like to live in a utopian society where violence doesn't exist, but that's not the case. So while it wasn't the best answer, it is the one that popped into Crispy's head, and it got the job done.

The made a line in the sand daring him to cross it with their smart-ass comments, and he did. They thought they were invincible (like most younger people feel they are) and Crispy proved otherwise. John Wayne would be proud. We can speculate on what that taught them, but one thing is for certain - they are going to think about it. Will they go after the 12 year old again knowing that Crispy may be around watching? Who knows.

Next time Crispy, do this. If they start up again, pee on them. :smalleek: Then they'll think your psychotic and won't dare bring that kind of trouble around your way. If you hit them right in the face, tell them as they run away that next time is that and a beating. :smallamused:

Or change the situation. Like go explain to the lady who pays the 12 year old money for helping what happens, and see if there is another way for her to give him payment. Like - writing a check. Or perhaps she can give him a ride home to avoid this. He may be too intimidated to take other actions to protect his loot, but that doesn't mean you can't. Take a measure of prevention into your own hands.

You did the right thing in standing up for those who can not stand up for themselves. Were there other options? Sure - but that doesn't make what you did any less right for not thinking of them. You took a course of action, and more people need to do that rather then hide behind words and pieces of paper.

Good job!

[Crispy Dave]

Update:

1)I found out that one of the bullies gave back that kid a total of $80 that he had taken throughout his bullying time.-success

2)the other kid now is picking on him at school even worse then before. But when Bully 1 is around he doesn't do a thing.

[Supagoof]

Update:

1)I found out that one of the bullies gave back that kid a total of $80 that he had taken throughout his bullying time.-success

2)the other kid now is picking on him at school even worse then before. But when Bully 1 is around he doesn't do a thing.
Yeah, time to get the teachers involved in at the school. I've seen where many schools have a zero tolerance policy, and that will affect you if you resort to violence there.

Perhaps since Bully 1 has taken to making amends, you can convince him to have his partner back off.

Edit @V - Heh, a phone call would work just the same. :smallwink:

[Crispy Dave]

Yeah, time to get the teachers involved in at the school. I've seen where many schools have a zero tolerance policy, and that will affect you if you resort to violence there.

Perhaps since Bully 1 has taken to making amends, you can convince him to have his partner back off.

this is where home schooling makes problems. That and raising hell in the schools that they turn the 9 mm off safety when they see me

[Renegade Paladin]

One more word about force not solving anything... I'm sorry, but this is not correct. Suppose somebody robs you and you go to the authorities. They send the police after the mugger. The police do not politely ask the guy if he'd mind very much getting into the handcuffs. If he's convicted, they do not put him in a room with an open door and nicely ask him to please stay there for a few months. Force is always applied to solve the problem, even if you're not the one applying it. Whether that force is used responsibly or irresponsibly is an open question. Responsible use of force usually means, using the smallest amount necessary to solve the problem.
"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue — and thoroughly immoral — doctrine that 'violence never solves anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - Robert A. Heinlein, "Starship Troopers"

:smallbiggrin:

[Decoy Lockbox]

Or change the situation. Like go explain to the lady who pays the 12 year old money for helping what happens, and see if there is another way for her to give him payment. Like - writing a check. Or perhaps she can give him a ride home to avoid this. He may be too intimidated to take other actions to protect his loot, but that doesn't mean you can't. Take a measure of prevention into your own hands.

But if she does that, the terrorists win!


Update:

1)I found out that one of the bullies gave back that kid a total of $80 that he had taken throughout his bullying time.-success

2)the other kid now is picking on him at school even worse then before. But when Bully 1 is around he doesn't do a thing.

Maybye you can do some crazy mental judo to convince bully 1 to start bullying bully 2 into stopping bullying the kid? Bully 2 sounds like a total a-hole though. I mean, does he not realize that he is liable to recieve another beatdown at any moment for his continuing behaviour? What if bully #2 is like Captain Carnage from Watchmen, and secretly wants to get beaten up again?

[reorith]

Update:

1)I found out that one of the bullies gave back that kid a total of $80 that he had taken throughout his bullying time.-success

2)the other kid now is picking on him at school even worse then before. But when Bully 1 is around he doesn't do a thing.

nice start. now get the bullies to repay the interest.


What if bully #2 is like Captain Carnage from Watchmen, and secretly wants to get beaten up again?

this solution is simple. throw him down an elevator shaft.

[Decoy Lockbox]

this solution is simple. throw him down an elevator shaft.

I can see it now.

Dear playground: I threw a masochistic bully down an elevator shaft. Did I do the right thing?

[Supagoof]

I can see it now.

Dear playground: I threw a masochistic bully down an elevator shaft. Did I do the right thing?
Yes!

Wait - how deep was the elevator shaft? :smallamused:

[MountainKing]

Two things...

One.) He said he made sure they knew he carried a knife at all times. Now, whether or not that means he actually pulled it on them or not, I don't know... but from my perspective, even just telling them you've got it is foolish. "To know your enemy and yourself is to have victory. To know your enemy but not yourself is to sometimes have victory." - Heavily paraphrased Sun Tzu

The point I'm making is, if they know you have it, then they've won. Whether or not you're willing to use it is irrelevant; they can plan their attack based on the assumption that you will, and still be victorious if you don't.

Two.) I whole heartedly support what you did Crispy. I spent kindergarten through second grade either sucking it up and taking the beating, or running away, and I finally got sick of it. I spent third grade and fourth grade, going into fifth grade, sitting in the principal's office during recess because I was sick and tired of taking it, so I started to lash out. I was a big kid (who grew into a big teenager, and is now a big man), and eventually, I got my point across: I was big enough to be a hassle (eventually becoming too big to make it worth their trouble), and more than happy to fight back at the slightest provocation. It took me two and a half years, but violence solved my problem in a permanent fashion. I haven't gotten into a full blown fight since 4th grade, and I'll be 22 this Saturday.

The mindset I took on to make all that happen caused me my own problems socially later on, but that's neither here nor there. I did what I had to do, and finally, I stopped getting picked on. Everyone here who says that you should have involved the police, *balls* to that. You're a kid, they're kids. The most likely scenario I can see (unless you live in Perfectharmonyville) is the police would've called up the parents involved, the kids would've gotten a stern talking to (at best), and that 12 year old boy's life would've become absolute *Hell*. Call me cynical and jaded, but that's how I see things.

Bottom line: if there were no broken bones, and money's not being stolen anymore, then you did right. I applaud you for that.

[Decoy Lockbox]

Yes!

Wait - how deep was the elevator shaft? :smallamused:

I don't know, it was pretty dark down there. But I *did* hear a nice crunching noise at the end. All in all, it was a good day for justice.


I whole heartedly support what you did Crispy. I spent kindergarten through second grade either sucking it up and taking the beating, or running away, and I finally got sick of it. I spent third grade and fourth grade, going into fifth grade, sitting in the principal's office during recess because I was sick and tired of taking it, so I started to lash out. I was a big kid (who grew into a big teenager, and is now a big man), and eventually, I got my point across: I was big enough to be a hassle (eventually becoming too big to make it worth their trouble), and more than happy to fight back at the slightest provocation. It took me two and a half years, but violence solved my problem in a permanent fashion. I haven't gotten into a full blown fight since 4th grade, and I'll be 22 this Saturday.

Exactly what I was talking about. I hate it when school administrators and parents tell you to stick up to bullies, and then you end up in trouble for it. At the elementary and middle schools I went to, anybody caught fighting was immediately suspended -- it doesn't matter who started it, anybody involved got suspended.

[MountainKing]

They called my parents about it several times. It never stopped me; I was far too busy dealing with a******s one the playground and getting sick of dealing with them to care. I was *seven*. Eventually, they gave up on it; they just sat me in the office, which was fine to me. I had gone into an isolationist mindset.

I also met one of my best friends today back then; we got into one little fight on the snow hill and wound up in the office together for a week. We basically went "So... stuck here together all week huh? ...do you like to play Nintendo?" :smallbiggrin:

Nowadays, people are nuts. Back then, I got along fine by myself, and fighting ended up getting me left alone for the rest of my school career. Nowadays, you look at a kid funny, and you are *hosed*.