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View Full Version : Help with using Demogorgon.



Volkov
2009-05-28, 06:50 AM
I'm using him as an end of adventure enemy against my APL 107 party. And according to the Fiendish codex advancement rules, his spell like ability caster level would become woefully low if I advanced his hit dice enough to present a challenge. So low in fact that it wouldn't phase anyone in the party in the slightest, and he wouldn't have any chance at all to dispell anything of the party. Also, I need some help choosing some spell-like abilities and feats for him to use.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-28, 07:52 AM
Average party level 107? Is there a typo here, or is your campaign completely insane? If you need CR 100+ enemies, I think all the guidelines break down anyway and you can just give it any damn caster level you want.

Other than that, I remember people keep linking some project with "proper" versions of enemies like this - demon lords and whatnot - that actually work against mildly optimized high-level PCs, but I can't recall the name or the URL... maybe someone else can help?

mostlyharmful
2009-05-28, 07:55 AM
Stuff this high needs to be taken over to dicefreaks, once you get into epic the 3.5 engine needs an overhaul and you're way way way past what the standerd WotC stuff can handle as you've now found.

Unless you're 4th in which case I dunno.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-28, 08:01 AM
Right, Dicefreaks (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/).

Also, searching these forums (and probably Dicefreaks?) for epic spells others have made would probably be a good idea.

daggaz
2009-05-28, 08:05 AM
You guys dont honestly think he is playing at 107th lvl do you? I mean, epic is broken enough at 25th, the whole game just devolves into ruleless story telling based on spellcasting.

I would bet its a typo on the number pad, and its supposed to be 17th... but meh, who knows?

kamikasei
2009-05-28, 08:09 AM
You guys dont honestly think he is playing at 107th lvl do you? I mean, epic is broken enough at 25th, the whole game just devolves into ruleless story telling based on spellcasting.

I can't imagine Demogorgon as he appears in the Fiendish Codex is an insufficient challenge for a 17th-level party... and yes, for some reason people do occasionally play absurdly high-level epic games.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-28, 08:16 AM
There's an entire third-party sourcebook for playing super-epic D&D. People do it. The problem, as it is outlined (HD increases increase CL too slowly), makes it quite clear that we're speaking epic characters with individual levels past the 20s.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-28, 09:57 AM
If you're thinking of that Mongoose book...Immortals Handbook, was it? It's not actually useful - the monsters in it are basically strings of very long random numbers organized into stat blocks and given arbitrary CRs, which come in two flavors: the "incredibly ubermonster who can be blown into next Tuesday with Epic spells available at or below their CR" (Neutronium Golem), or the "pun-pun-esque monsters who auto-win against everyone (Oroborous).

Volkov
2009-05-28, 10:41 AM
You guys dont honestly think he is playing at 107th lvl do you? I mean, epic is broken enough at 25th, the whole game just devolves into ruleless story telling based on spellcasting.

I would bet its a typo on the number pad, and its supposed to be 17th... but meh, who knows?

I'm fully serious. It is an APL of 107. At the moment an atropal could be easily destroyed by the party cleric's turn undead abillty.

MrBojangles
2009-05-28, 11:20 AM
Holy......good luck with that. Dicefreaks is going to be your best bet. http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5
This thread has plenty of crazy powerful creations, including a suped up Demogorgan. Even then, I'm not sure its powerful enough for an APL 107 though. It's still a better start than the FC Demogorgan.

Volkov
2009-05-28, 01:49 PM
Holy......good luck with that. Dicefreaks is going to be your best bet. http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5
This thread has plenty of crazy powerful creations, including a suped up Demogorgan. Even then, I'm not sure its powerful enough for an APL 107 though. It's still a better start than the FC Demogorgan.

Ok I can use that as a start point. I may need to add more heads to give him more actions per round and more gaze attacks.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-28, 01:50 PM
If you give Demogorgon more heads, he's not Demogorgon anymore. Consider Gestalting him with a ballston of class levels, that'll up his power level a bit.

Volkov
2009-05-28, 01:54 PM
If you give Demogorgon more heads, he's not Demogorgon anymore. Consider Gestalting him with a ballston of class levels, that'll up his power level a bit.

Demogorgon had a brother in old fluff, forgot his name, I'll explain the extra heads away as the result of a permanent merging of the two. Four heads.

Rasilak
2009-05-28, 04:50 PM
Ugh, what does your party usually play against? Tucker's Balors? I don't think that Demogorgon would stand any chance on his own. But you'll never meet him alone anyway. If he's got an army of bodyguards, perhaps containing a bunch of epic spellcasters, the whole thing looks different. It could also be conseiderably harder if he uses his homeground to his full advantage (but honestly, as others pointed out, the game is insanely broken waaay before three-digit-levels).

Emy
2009-05-28, 05:07 PM
Ok I can use that as a start point. I may need to add more heads to give him more actions per round and more gaze attacks.

Just give him 8 levels of Factotum.

And Font of Inspiration however many times he can take it.

BlueWizard
2009-05-28, 05:18 PM
Wow. I thought 40th level wizard was ridiculous.

Flickerdart
2009-05-28, 05:35 PM
Why not face them off against all Demon Lords? And maybe Devil Princes as well, and General Gehenna to boot. And Tiamat.

Dixieboy
2009-05-28, 05:46 PM
Why not face them off against all Demon Lords? And maybe Devil Princes as well, and General Gehenna to boot. And Tiamat.
Tuck in two-three gods and then you're almost there.

TheCountAlucard
2009-05-28, 06:35 PM
Heck, just send them up against Q. He and Demogorgon are pretty good friends, from what I hear. :smallamused:

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-28, 06:49 PM
How on earth do you even begin to rationalise 107th level characters? I mean, really? The entire plane of reality as known to everyone in the entire cosmos of DnD would be entirely meaningless to such hideous over-deities. Merely managing to percieve such entities as a mere demon prince should require a feat of willpower akin to actually giving a crap about which particular bactiria live or die in your petri dish.


That's just insane levels. Why even both with demogorgon? He's not more powerful than a god, and your party should quite easily eat entire pantheons for breakfast. It just doesn't make sense for him to ever be a threat to such characters. Really. What the hell? You want Demogorgon to threaten the party, roll new characters who are, infact, less powerfull than the combined dnd pantheon.

Damn.

woodenbandman
2009-05-28, 08:20 PM
Probably had extreme overpopulation in the world and then a few people poisoned (accidentally) entire megatropolises and gained 20 levels overnight.

MrBojangles
2009-05-28, 08:53 PM
If you really want to go through the work of upgrading demogorgan, then use this guy as a guideline.
http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=305
Of course, this is assuming that Ao is in fact a challenge to them. If Ao can't beat them, then I think it's time to start a new game. At that point their's really no such thing as a challenge.

BlueWizard
2009-05-28, 09:08 PM
I usually stop my PCs at level 30 and force a hall of fame retirement.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 09:16 PM
I'm using him as an end of adventure enemy against my APL 107 party. And according to the Fiendish codex advancement rules, his spell like ability caster level would become woefully low if I advanced his hit dice enough to present a challenge. So low in fact that it wouldn't phase anyone in the party in the slightest, and he wouldn't have any chance at all to dispell anything of the party. Also, I need some help choosing some spell-like abilities and feats for him to use.At this pont, start playing Nobilis.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-05-28, 10:32 PM
I actually got that far with my first character, because the DM had no idea what he was doing. I think we fought pirates to gain our 100th level :smallbiggrin: Shortly thereafter, I discovered a version of Pun-Pun by myself, and that campaign ended :smallbiggrin:

Killer Angel
2009-05-29, 05:49 AM
Ugh, what does your party usually play against? Tucker's Balors?

lol. This has made my day... :smallsmile:
It should be inserted in the "plot hook - adventure's ideas" for the Epic Handbook.

Volkov
2009-05-29, 12:27 PM
In my campaign, all cosmic entities are significantly more powerful than pretty much any other campaign setting. Our Settings Juiblex would eat Faerun's Ao for breakfast.

strawberryman
2009-05-29, 12:39 PM
On a slightly related note, I have been looking for a standard party to try out my 3.5 rendition of FFXI's Absolute Virtue. >_>

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-29, 12:51 PM
In my campaign, all cosmic entities are significantly more powerful than pretty much any other campaign setting. Our Settings Juiblex would eat Faerun's Ao for breakfast.

So. >_>

You've basically just stretched the entire level system out, so that your level 107 characters are essentially the equivalent of, like, level 27's or something?
Um. Really, I just don't see what the benefit is, really. It just sounds like a way of gaining bragging rights about how high level you all are, and a headache for the dm as he basically has to level absolutely everything up to arbitrary and frankly purely theoretical levels that really no longer have any meaning whatsoever. >_>

How on earth did you possibly need to go so high? You're going to end up telling the exact same story via the events as if you'd just played 'epic' like anyone else, and not just started adding 0's to the level counter.

No offence, just the whole concept makes my brain hurt. It all sounds a bit, 'These go to eleven.' really?

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-29, 12:59 PM
"All cosmic entities" is "absolutely everything" ?

Nice strawman.

Volkov
2009-05-29, 01:31 PM
"All cosmic entities" is "absolutely everything" ?

Nice strawman.

Thank you.

herrhauptmann
2009-05-29, 05:02 PM
What exactly does a level 107 character look like? In terms of stats, abilities, equipment, divine rank?

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 05:05 PM
What exactly does a level 107 character look like? In terms of stats, abilities, equipment, divine rank?
Anything he wants to look like.

herrhauptmann
2009-05-29, 05:07 PM
Anything he wants to look like.

Well yeah, but without the numbers, it becomes the same game of pretend from when I was 5. (Granted, at epic, that can happen anyway)

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-29, 08:15 PM
How is a 107th level party fighting an apropriate version of Demogorgon ANY different from a level, I don't know, 30th party fighting an apropriate version of Demogorgon?

This is, more or less, the core of what I don't understand. You're already above the point that the system is considered to even 'work', really. As I understand, by that point your arcane characters can already re-write the laws of physics entirely, create their own new dimension to rule, or, say, trim the ranks of certain kinds of dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107483)

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 09:03 PM
How is a 107th level party fighting an apropriate version of Demogorgon ANY different from a level, I don't know, 30th party fighting an apropriate version of Demogorgon?

This is, more or less, the core of what I don't understand. You're already above the point that the system is considered to even 'work', really. As I understand, by that point your arcane characters can already re-write the laws of physics entirely, create their own new dimension to rule, or, say, trim the ranks of certain kinds of dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107483)
Just one kind of dragon? They can delete everything that's ever lived.

Sereg
2009-05-30, 05:19 AM
If I were you I'd give him the help of a character I originally designed in 2E. Basically he's an infernal with all 5 half-chromatic dragon templates (stacked), gaze attacks, swallow whole and an insane number of class levels.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-30, 05:38 AM
Just one kind of dragon? They can delete everything that's ever lived.

Scroll of genocide ?

joe
2009-05-30, 02:39 PM
Disregarding the wackiness that comes from running a party average leveled 107, I will say the best thing to do to Demogorgon to make him any sort of sufficient challenge would be to add a LOT of class levels to him. Personally I would look at Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD) and Chameleon (Races of Destiny) to start. Any other class that has recognition of demonics, duality or insanity would be a good addition as well. In addition to heavy overload of class levels, I would recommend beefing his Hit dice up to something insane with advancement. Generally you could make him as infinitely beefy as you like, since the party is 107th level they can probably take him on regardless.

Generally I view anything with a divine rank to be always a good few steps ahead of the PCs in terms of level, just to discourage them from trying to fight them.

Doresain
2009-05-31, 01:00 AM
I'm using him as an end of adventure enemy against my APL 107 party. And according to the Fiendish codex advancement rules, his spell like ability caster level would become woefully low if I advanced his hit dice enough to present a challenge. So low in fact that it wouldn't phase anyone in the party in the slightest, and he wouldn't have any chance at all to dispell anything of the party. Also, I need some help choosing some spell-like abilities and feats for him to use.

have him destroy himself in some creative fashion...they cant defeat him if hes already dead...

chiasaur11
2009-05-31, 01:03 AM
have him destroy himself in some creative fashion...they cant defeat him if hes already dead...

You can beat a deadite...

WITH SCIENCE!

Doresain
2009-05-31, 01:11 AM
You can beat a deadite...

WITH SCIENCE!

well im out of ideas :smallannoyed:

chiasaur11
2009-05-31, 01:18 AM
well im out of ideas :smallannoyed:

Chainsaws, shotguns, and one liners also work.

Recent studies on the use of garden plants have been promising, but further research is needed.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 01:24 AM
Recent studies on the use of garden plants have been promising, but further research is needed.

Win.

That is all. :smallcool:

Starbuck_II
2009-05-31, 01:33 AM
Disregarding the wackiness that comes from running a party average leveled 107, I will say the best thing to do to Demogorgon to make him any sort of sufficient challenge would be to add a LOT of class levels to him. Personally I would look at Thrall of Demogorgon (BoVD) and Chameleon (Races of Destiny) to start.


Wait...how can Demogorgon take Thrall of Demogorgon...

Isn't he himself...

Doresain
2009-05-31, 01:39 AM
Wait...how can Demogorgon take Thrall of Demogorgon...

Isn't he himself...

the left head takes ToD for the right head, and vice versa...and thats the least silly idea i could think of