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View Full Version : Query about Shadow Conjuration and Thick of Blades



Frosty
2009-05-28, 02:35 PM
Two separates questions actually.

The casting time for Shadow conjuration is 1 standard action. Does this hold true even if the spell it is trying to mimic gas a longer casting time? For example, if I want to use Shadow Conjuration to conjure a Phantom Steed, could I do it in one standard action instead of 10 minutes? Also, can I fail the will save intentionally for that quasi-real Phantom horse which is...made of more shadows than..usual? :smallconfused:

Second question: How do stances like Shifting Defense work against other stances like Thicket of Blades. Shifting Defense allows your character to take a 5ft step whenever an opponent misses you. The text specifically states that the movement does not provoke. Thicket of Blades says that even 5ft steps provokes AoOs from you. Immovable Rod vs Unstoppable Force?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 02:41 PM
Two separates questions actually.

The casting time for Shadow conjuration is 1 standard action. Does this hold true even if the spell it is trying to mimic gas a longer casting time? For example, if I want to use Shadow Conjuration to conjure a Phantom Steed, could I do it in one standard action instead of 10 minutes? Also, can I fail the will save intentionally for that quasi-real Phantom horse which is...made of more shadows than..usual? :smallconfused:You can fail the save, and I think the currently accepted ruling is that even if you're looking at 140% real illusions, it only gets you 100% effectiveness, due to things like that.
Second question: How do stances like Shifting Defense work against other stances like Thicket of Blades. Shifting Defense allows your character to take a 5ft step whenever an opponent misses you. The text specifically states that the movement does not provoke. Thicket of Blades says that even 5ft steps provokes AoOs from you. Immovable Rod vs Unstoppable Force?Short answer: Yes.
Long answer:ToB desprately needed errata, but WotC hates 3.x because people think it's better than 4.x, so ToB will never get errata.

Frosty
2009-05-28, 02:53 PM
Cool. any thoughts about the casting time?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 02:58 PM
Cool. any thoughts about the casting time?RAW, it doesn't make any mention of increasing the casting time, which makes sense. You're not casting the spell, you're just faking it really well. Shadow only takes so long to appear.

Also, keep in mind the 140% ruling I mentioned was just what I'd seen in most discussions of SCM, accepted as reasonable, simple, and keeping the class from turning into a new Polymorph. I don't think it's RAW, and your DM gets final say.

Frosty
2009-05-28, 03:05 PM
I don't care about the 140%. I just don't want fall thru my potentially 20% real Phantom Steed.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-28, 03:30 PM
You use the casting time of Shadow Conjuration, rather than that of the spell it mimics. The same goes for Shadow Evocation. It's a common tactic to use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency to reduce its casting time and ignore the costly spell focus, for example.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 07:00 PM
Two separates questions actually.

The casting time for Shadow conjuration is 1 standard action. Does this hold true even if the spell it is trying to mimic gas a longer casting time? For example, if I want to use Shadow Conjuration to conjure a Phantom Steed, could I do it in one standard action instead of 10 minutes? Also, can I fail the will save intentionally for that quasi-real Phantom horse which is...made of more shadows than..usual? :smallconfused: 1 action. Yea, use Greater Shadow Evocation to cast Forcecage without blowing 1500 a pop.


Second question: How do stances like Shifting Defense work against other stances like Thicket of Blades. Shifting Defense allows your character to take a 5ft step whenever an opponent misses you. The text specifically states that the movement does not provoke. Thicket of Blades says that even 5ft steps provokes AoOs from you. Immovable Rod vs Unstoppable Force?

Shifting Defense mentions that 5' steps normally do not provoke AoO, and these work just like that. Thicket of Blades specifically provokes AoO on 5' step. Therefore, someone using Shifting Defense against someone with Thicket of Blades WOULD provoke an AoO.

Chronos
2009-05-28, 08:56 PM
It's a common tactic to use Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Contingency to reduce its casting time and ignore the costly spell focus, for example.More often, to get access to Contingency despite having banned Evocation. It depends on your DM not ruling that triggering a contingency is interacting with it, though, since you really don't want to give the thing that was about to beat you up a saving throw.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 09:19 PM
More often, to get access to Contingency despite having banned Evocation. It depends on your DM not ruling that triggering a contingency is interacting with it, though, since you really don't want to give the thing that was about to beat you up a saving throw.

If you use Shadow Gnome tactics to make your illusions at least 100% 'real', then it isn't much of a problem.

Viv
2009-05-28, 09:23 PM
Shifting Defense mentions that 5' steps normally do not provoke AoO, and these work just like that. Thicket of Blades specifically provokes AoO on 5' step. Therefore, someone using Shifting Defense against someone with Thicket of Blades WOULD provoke an AoO.

Actually, what it says, essentially: Get attacked and you can use an AoO to take a 5' step. This 5' step does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

5' foot steps inherently don't provoke attacks of opportunity... unless Thicket of Blades is in effect.

The problem here is that instead of leaving the non-provoking implicit, they repeat it explicitly, so by a certain reading, it says, "These 5' steps don't provoke AoO's irrespective of what anything else says."

I would probably choose to interpret it that way based on the fact that Thicket of Blades is 3rd level and Shifting Defense is 5th.

But really, you can make an argument either way -- the designers may have really just been reminding you of the non-AoO inherent property of 5' steps as opposed to defining a new one for this specific 5' step.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-05-28, 10:59 PM
More often, to get access to Contingency despite having banned Evocation. It depends on your DM not ruling that triggering a contingency is interacting with it, though, since you really don't want to give the thing that was about to beat you up a saving throw.

It doesn't matter, Contingency is personal-range so there's nothing to interact with. Only the caster would ever be entitled to a saving throw. Plus it triggers based on the caster's perception of events, not based on someone else's actions. For example, if you have a contingent Invisibility to trigger when you're attacked, and you perceive an illusory foe attacking you, it will trigger. An illusion of a creature can't trigger a Symbol spell, for example, because that spell has to be interacted with. Contingency requires no actual interaction, it only affects the caster and is triggered based on the caster's perception of the triggering event.

Frosty
2009-05-28, 11:17 PM
1 action. Yea, use Greater Shadow Evocation to cast Forcecage without blowing 1500 a pop.



Shifting Defense mentions that 5' steps normally do not provoke AoO, and these work just like that. Thicket of Blades specifically provokes AoO on 5' step. Therefore, someone using Shifting Defense against someone with Thicket of Blades WOULD provoke an AoO.

Umm...does the enemy get a save to pass through that Forcecage?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-28, 11:20 PM
Umm...does the enemy get a save to pass through that Forcecage?

Gets a Will save, but if you use Heighten Spell + Earthen Spell, you are at 100% 'real', so it doesn't matter if he saves or not

Frosty
2009-05-28, 11:27 PM
True, but I'm no Shadowcraft mage.

Chronos
2009-05-29, 11:25 AM
It doesn't matter, Contingency is personal-range so there's nothing to interact with.I don't know about that; if I have a contingency for "if I get hit", say, and someone then hits me, that sure looks to me like the person is interacting with my contingency.

And Shadowcraft Mage pseudoreality shenanigans don't help for Contingency or Forcecage, since the shadowcraft ability works like the Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) spell, and "Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.". The quasireality of shadow evocations only comes into play for damaging spells.