Out of curiosity... [Archive] - Page 4 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 01:48 PM

Overlooked that one feat in one of the many, many non-core companions out there (the post in question signalled core rules environment clearly imo).
I knew of it, and I'm no where near good enough with classes to write guides.

You apparently are a veteran to these issues. What's you excuse for not knowing what a newbie does?

And the druid most certainly will have raised cross-class knowledge arcane (or used a feat to get it as class skill) to even think about this kind of form (check out the druid class description). Sure.

Aren't Cryohydras K. Nature?

Anyways, K. Devotion makes K. Arcana a class skill, and the druid does get a lot of skill points... so not unreasonable.

Again (one of the many monk doubter) arguments that are not entirely correct. It does not matter at all whether a build is playtested or not. When it has the tumble skill to avoid AoO, it will avoid AoO.

"Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC."

Think about that. One half speed. And you better hope the cryhydra doesn't have friends.

So a goth cryhydra then.

By the way

At level 17, from what I see,

1. Your tumble is +14, which is pretty low.

2. Your damage isn't impressive - 46 damage at level 17 is about part, I think? Except you can't overcome DR piercing or anything... so the fact that it's bludgeoning is problematic kinda.

3. Your HP is low - Con 12? Really? Against a Cryohydra?

4. Why are you blinking? Doesn't that mean you can't reliably hit/grab people if you're constantly phasing in and out? (Issues with BAB aside)

How do you grapple while blinking? Do you have to restart grapple every time you phase back in?

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 01:56 PM

At level 17, from what I see,

Sigh...

1. Your tumble is +14, which is pretty low.

Enough to auto-avoid AoO from movement, which was the subject under discussion.

2. Your damage isn't impressive - 46 damage at level 17 is about part, I think? Except you can't overcome DR piercing or anything... so the fact that it's bludgeoning is problematic kinda.

The build is not for primarily combat use, but to take out casters. But I am sure you have read this.

3. Your HP is low - Con 12? Really? Against a Cryohydra?

Yup. Luckily there are things like AC, blink OR grappling tactics that help.

4. Why are you blinking? Doesn't that mean you can't reliably hit/grab people if you're constantly phasing in and out? (Issues with BAB aside)

How do you grapple while blinking? Do you have to restart grapple every time you phase back in?

Easy. You do not grapple when blinking. When the joker monk intends to grapple, he'll not blink.
He'll btw easily outgrapple the hydra, which is small wonder - it is only CR 13 vs a level 17 character. It has no chance.

But I guess discussing the joker monk will derail this thread. It has been done 70 pages. So I'll focus on new playtests.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:01 PM

Sigh...

1. Your tumble is +14, which is pretty low.

Enough to auto-avoid AoO from movement, which was the subject under discussion.
Half movement. DC increases by 2 for each opponent.

Hydras have what, multiple heads? Don't those count as separate opponents?

The build is not for primarily combat use, but to take out casters. But I am sure you have read this.
That's a rather specialized build. You wrote a guide about a special build?

I've heard about your guide, but never read it. Seems like a guide devoted to telling monks that they should build themselves to take out casters is unnecessarily specialized and therefore not useful. What if you're in a campaign that doesn't feature enemy wizards every other session?

3. Your HP is low - Con 12? Really? Against a Cryohydra?

Yup. Luckily there are things like AC, blink OR grappling tactics that help.
It doesn't help your amazing fortitude saves much though.

He'll btw easily outgrapple the hydra, which is small wonder - it is only CR 13 vs a level 17 character. It has no chance.
I thought the Cryohydra was a higher CR. My mistake, wrong character.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 02:01 PM

I knew of it, and I'm no where near good enough with classes to write guides.

You apparently are a veteran to these issues. What's you excuse for not knowing what a newbie does?

You are very modest, see me as more experienced and doubt my judgment on this at the same time. Interesting way to discuss.:smallsmile: In particular since we both know that a druid wildshaping into a cryohydra has nothing at all to whether a monk would be able to deal with a cryohydra or not.

Aren't Cryohydras K. Nature?

Anyways, K. Devotion makes K. Arcana a class skill, and the druid does get a lot of skill points... so not unreasonable.

Which I already said.

"Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC."

Think about that. One half speed. And you better hope the cryhydra doesn't have friends.

20ft move on the hydra does not look like this is a problem for the flyby attacking monk. And the hydra having friends again, is a completely different encounter.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 02:03 PM

It doesn't help your amazing fortitude saves much though.
.

Please. I kindly ask you not to comment on the joker monk here. You may wish to start a different thread on it, where I'll try to answer questions on it - but I guess it is a futile thing to do.

- Giacomo

Insert Name Here

2009-06-22, 02:05 PM

Okay, wait. Lemme get this right.

Giacomo's asking why we interpret the rules the 'broken' way while boasting a build that requires the purchasing of partially-charged wands?

I'm sensing some irony here.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:07 PM

Doc Roc

2009-06-22, 02:13 PM

Clearly you have done your math wrong and no one would ever use a hydra anyway.

;)

Guancyto

2009-06-22, 02:14 PM

It does not matter at all whether a build is playtested or not.

See, this is the fundamental problem. Like the monk class itself, your build looks reasonable on paper (aside from Masterwork UMD tools, partially charged wands, the assumption that the DM you're playing under gives you exactly what you want, etc).

Something as simple as "I have actually taken the time to find out whether or not this elaborate and very argued-over bit of theorycraft actually works in-game" would help quell a lot of doubts.

Flickerdart

2009-06-22, 02:16 PM

See, this is the fundamental problem. Like the monk class itself, your build looks reasonable on paper (aside from Masterwork UMD tools and whatnot).

Something as simple as "I have actually taken the time to find out whether or not this elaborate and very argued-over bit of theorycraft actually works in-game" would help quell a lot of doubts.
He'd be able to test it if any DM actually allowed magi-mart partially charged wands while simultaneously not allowing anyone else to magi-mart, lest they be effective themselves. Since such a DM is purely theoretical...

Doc Roc

2009-06-22, 02:16 PM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:19 PM

It does not matter at all whether a build is playtested or not.
Remember DDT?

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-22, 02:20 PM

At this point, Giacomo, the burden of proof is yours. I'd like to see your monk in practical situations, or run up against moderately optimized opposition.

I'm willing to run it, but I suggest you enter into the test of spite.I'm willing to enter the ToS, though I still say it's not a good example due to the lack of a party. I'm sounding out the possibilities for ToM, if Giacomo would prefer that, as well.

Prophaniti

2009-06-22, 02:27 PM

Hydras have what, multiple heads? Don't those count as separate opponents?No, they don't. If a DM ever said a hydra's multiple heads counted as multiple opponents for things like tumbling, grappling, flanking, etc., there would be blood on the table. At least in my group. That's just mean.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:28 PM

No, they don't. If a DM ever said a hydra's multiple heads counted as multiple opponents for things like tumbling, grappling, flanking, etc., there would be blood on the table. At least in my group. That's just mean.

Fair enough, I'm pretty bad with some of the rules.

Is there anything else wrong with my ideas about cryohydras?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:30 PM

I'm willing to enter the ToS, though I still say it's not a good example due to the lack of a party. I'm sounding out the possibilities for ToM, if Giacomo would prefer that, as well.

We could all go core only for Test of Spite...

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 02:30 PM

I'll reply to a post that was around uncriticised for a week already - I'll merely list the rules mistakes, nothing in terms of opinion or such...

...stuff...

Correcting the rules misperceptions that imo are in Yuktsu's post:
1. a masterwork item exists for all skills. That is what the PHB says. It is up to the DM and the player to work out how this tool looks like in the respective campaign. Everyone is free to houserule certain MW tools do not exist in their games, but from a game mechanics viewpoint, a +2 circumstance bonus from a 50gp tool is expected to exist for most skills (others explicitly stated may be more expensive).
2. A higher hide check than the opponent's spot check means you will manage the hide check MORE than half the time. In particular when range penalties (-1 per 10ft) enter the picture.
3. 200k of equipment plus some wands and permanent enlarge up are well within the wealth of a level 20 character.
4. When using a wand in a surprise round and winning initiative even a solar cannot do anything to react in a core environment until its initiative count. For instance, it cannot cast greater dispel magic in the surprise round when it is surprised.
5. Even unbuffed, the level 20 monk I posted has a higher to hit than +21.
6. You do not get -5 to moving silently when you move, but only when you move at a higher speed than half-speed.
7. Providing the solar with non-core spell buffs does not mean anything in a core-only environment.
8. Etheral jaunt at will does not make you immune to any ambush, since "at will" still means you have to get the effect off on your turn. Unfortunately, not possible when flat-footed (and the surprise round is against you).
9. 28 skeletons likewise do not prvent all forms of ambush except some reflex based spells, since the typical archer ambush will take out the necromancer immediately. Some tumbling characters can at level 7 easily also tumble through skeletons. Plus, some may attack from above (flying, jumping)
10. Phantom steed does not help vs an ambush, since either it is not up yet (necessitating 10 min casting time!), or it is up and is killed immediately in the ambush (due to its meager hp).
11. You cannot turn into something with burrow speed or eath glide with alter self in the core game.
12. Warweaver wizard is non-core.
13. While many forms of shapechange-relevant "familiarity" are possible, it remains entirely DM-dependant.
14. Lesser planar binding is not "free", it carries risks.
15. Rightous might spell can be activated with UMD (scroll) or cast from ring of spell storing. Nothing illegal about it.
16. A commoner has less class abilities than a monk.

Apart from that, he raises some good points that maybe are answered in more playtesting of monks of my design.

- Giacomo

Prophaniti

2009-06-22, 02:32 PM

Fair enough, I'm pretty bad with some of the rules.

Is there anything else wrong with my ideas about cryohydras?
I dunno. I just saw that and had to comment on the inhumanity of such an idea.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 02:32 PM

16. A commoner has less class abilities than a monk.
Chicken Infested.

I believe we're done here.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 02:39 PM

At this point, Giacomo, the burden of proof is yours. I'd like to see your monk in practical situations, or run up against moderately optimized opposition.

I'm willing to run it, but I suggest you enter into the test of spite.

So what level will it be?
Core, 28 pt buy?
Or should it rather be the group setting in the test of might?

- Giaocmo

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-22, 02:56 PM

So what level will it be?
Core, 28 pt buy?
Or should it rather be the group setting in the test of might?

- GiaocmoI think the Test of Might is more accurate, since it's a group setting, though our options for levels will be somewhat limited(I'm checking that now). We can also do Test of Spite, which isn't party, but should work. In either case, I'll include a Druid in the same role as your Monk. Whichever you prefer is fine by me.

Doc Roc

2009-06-22, 02:57 PM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 03:13 PM

What will the test of might prove other than the fact that afrokuma's monstrosity kills adventurers with brutal efficiency?

Can't we go against something more reasonable, like a cryohydra?

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-22, 03:18 PM

What will the test of might prove other than the fact that afrokuma's monstrosity kills adventurers with brutal efficiency?

Can't we go against something more reasonable, like a cryohydra?Well, I've seen most of the challenges run already, so the monster will probably have to be new anyways. We could ask that it not be considered part of the 'official' ToM, and that we get something only 2 CR above the party in that case. Maybe one of us would have a shot, then. Besides, even in death it is possible to see whether either of the parties had a chance.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 03:24 PM

Test of Might is like DnD Minis, right, where you control a party?

Kurald Galain

2009-06-22, 03:26 PM

It does not matter at all whether a build is playtested or not.

Yes, that's what they said about Daikatana...

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-22, 03:28 PM

Test of Might is like DnD Minis, right, where you control a party?Standard D&D rules, with more restrictions, and yes, you control an entire party. Someone DMs the opposition force(generally a BBEG of +3 or more CR as well as a set of dangerous minions), you both get the same amount of time to buff, and then the BBEG makes you beg for a simple, safe, Call of Cthulhu campaign.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 04:03 PM

CR 13 Joker
STR 18 (+2 item), DEX 15, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 16 (+2 item), CHR 8
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative (human bonus feat), Magical Apitude, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Skill Focus- Use Magic Device, Improved Disarm (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (14/day, DC 18)
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 60ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (26 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day), Diamond soul (Spell resistance: 23).
SKILLS: Move Silently +20 (DEX, 16 ranks, MW item), Hide +20 (DEX, 16 ranks, MW item), Spot +26 (WIS, 16 ranks, MW item, eyes), Listen +21 (WIS, 16 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +17 (CHR, 8 ranks, feats, MW item, circlet), Spellcraft +13 (INT, 5 ranks, feat, synergy, MW item), Knowledge-Arcane +9 (INT, 5 ranks, MW item), Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy), Perform- Comedy +5 (CHR, 1 rank, MW item, circlet), Jump +29 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move), Diplomacy +12 (CHR, 8 ranks, MW item, circlet)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (550 gp), Masterwork spiked chain (325), bead of bless 1/day (600), Masterwork light crossbow (335), 2 Pearls of Power, level 1 (2,000), Cloak of Resistance +1, Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), Circlet of Pesuasion (4,500), Gauntlets of Ogre Power+2 (4,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken (310), Eversmoking Bottle (5,400), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Pearl of Power level 3 (9,000), Monk’s Belt (13,000), Amulet of WIS+2 (4,000), Boots of Flying (16,000), Ring of Blinking (27,000)
WAND BUDGET: 21,000 (cumulative with prvs levels)
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 70ft (100ft flying)
AC 20 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 23 fighting defensively, 26 full defense (tumble)
HITS 70 (max d8 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +10, Refl +11, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +17 (+17/+17/+16/+11); enlarged +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12) +3 enhance bonus, blinking; Damage 3d8 +7, 4d8+8 enlarged

OK, I'll try to explain to you how this joker monk would face a CR 13 cryohydra (CR 13 being a bit tough for a same level character to face on his own, but let's try it, anyhow).
I have a feeble hope that this convinces you, but chances are that it will evolve as it did when I last tried to explain it in 70 pages and failed...:smallfrown:

What I am seeing
SKILLS: Tumble +11 (DEX, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy)
AC 20 (WIS, DEX, monk, mage armour), 23 fighting defensively, 26 full defense (tumble)
HP 70
SAVES: Fort +10, Refl +11, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantment)
GRAPPLE: +17 (+17/+17/+16/+11); enlarged +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16)
UNARMED ATTACK: +17 (+17/+17/+17/+12) +3 enhance bonus, blinking; Damage 3d8 +7, 4d8+8 enlarged (average of 26?)

Cryohydra has 12 heads at CR 13.

+26 grapple, +17 melee

That means after you tumble past them at half speed, tey charge at you and.... that would be bad, wouldn't it, given that it attacks at +19 when charging vs your AC of 20 and deals an average of 15 damage per head.

OK, I'll start here.
The joker monk's high stealth skills and higher initiative make anything but a surprise round AND the first round going to him improbable.
So, the hydra is never going to charge the monk. It's going to be other way round.

Then, the higher stealth skills mean that the monk can buff outside the hydra's hearing range at leisure (this is what the joker monk is about, remember?). The wand budget I envisioned for lvl 13 is 21,000 gp. That's enough for enlarge, heroism and a 9th level divine favour effect (+3 to hit and damage). I'll throw in some boots of haste which at that time I underestimated in power even at that level.

The hydra has 12 AoO for movement (special hydra ability), even with the combat reflexes when flat-footed. However, with heroism, the tumble is almost auto-pass. And what the heck - even when hit, the monk is not going to suffer much with blink up (and his AC will fighting defensively be AC 23 (monk, dodge defense with tumble, WIS, DEX, haste, -1 size, -2 charge). I entered the AC a bit too low in the guide.

You pretty much eat 12 attacks at 15 damage each. That's...180 damage. You have 70 HP.

The monk eats nothing. By contrast, the hydra is going to eat the following:
Surprise round attack at +22 (9 BAB, +5 STR, -1 size, +2 morale, +3 enhance, +3 luck, +2 charge, +2 blink, +1 haste, -4 fight defensively). Auto-hits vs flat-footed AC (25% miss chance). Damage 4d8 +11 = 0.95*0.75*29 = 21
Stunning fist added on top, 25% risk of missing save. But let's leave it for now.
Hydra heals 22 points, back to full hp.
Then, the first round:
5 attacks at +20/+20/+20/+20/+15, all auto-hitting vs flat-footed AC except the last attack, for another 4*0.95*29*0.75+0.75*0.75*29=99 damage

Again, stunning fist added on top. This time, it is more than 50% cumulative chance with the previous surprise round, but let's still assume that the hydra makes another fort save and at least gets one full-round attack off.

Then, the hydra strikes back. It is questionable whether it would attack with breath weapons - likely it does against physical threats such as this monk as proven to be. This would benefit the monk greatly, since he has improved evasion at +13 buffed reflex save vs DC 21 for 5 avg damage at most each.
But let's rule again against the joker monk and assume the heads attack regularly with bites.
Then, there are 12 attacks at +17 attack bonus each vs a monk AC of 25 (monk, DEX, WIS, mage armour, size -1, +3 dodge, +1 haste).
This means 12*0.65*0.5(blink miss chance)*11 (avg damage) = 43 damage

Hydra heals again 22 points; down by 77 total.

2nd round:
Monk as above, doing 99 damage, killing hydra, and this time also stunning it.
Combat over. Joker monk wins easily. Against a CR 13 encounter at level 13.

Your move is 70ft. Half is 35. You are in range of a charge.

Charge range is irrelevant for hydra, due to better stealth of the monk.

Flying, you move 100 feet. Half is 50. 50 feet is still within range of a charge.

It is not, in particular not when flying (which is not necessary, though).

If you're Large, though, I think you are safe. You'd be 10 feet outside of a charge, though your AC decreases slightly.

It does, but it does not matter.

DC of 10+6+5=21 against 36d6 cold damage that it breaths on you if you are out of range due to being Enlarged and Flying. I think it's a standard action, so it can ready an action to spray you as you come close.

Improved Evasion and high reflex save takes care of that.

You save half the time. So let's say you talk 18 d6 damage on average vs breath attack. This is 54 damage on average. You have 70 HP.

No, it is much less, due to improved evasion, blink and reflex save. Only 0.35*0.5*11*12=23 damage, to be precise.

You deal 26 damage though, assuming things work perfectly for you.

It then heals 10+12=22 damage...

You deal 4 damage a round on average.

If you try to kill a cryohydra this way, you will eventually fail a few tumble checks and get attack of opportunitied by 12 heads.

Fortunately, you'll have a party with you.

But if you're only dealing 4 damage a round, you're not contributing...

Grappling a Cryohyrda might work, but I think it could full attack and kill you while you do so.

Completely confusing calculations. Please check out mine for what really happens with a joker monk at that level.

- Giacomo

Mr.Moron

2009-06-22, 04:06 PM

Dear god, it isn't even just dead anymore. It has been wailed so much it's like... a gooey equine puddle. With little bits of hair, and one shattered tooth floating in it.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 04:07 PM

Yes, that's what they said about Daikatana...

Please, next time do not quote out of context. Thanks.

- Giacomo

Doc Roc

2009-06-22, 04:15 PM

Select your pistol, then select your horse.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 04:16 PM

All the rules are listed. Click the link in my sig, or I'll run you against a suitable OpFor in test of might (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115494). Whichever you prefer.

In other words, step right up and strike while the iron is hot with an implement of your choosing in a battlefield of your preference.

The problem, Tidesinger, is, that people might object, if I choose one or the other - possibly maintaining that the monk can only shine in that or that environment.

Having said that, what about the test of might? I guess how the monk performs in group play is what everyone is interested in.

Core, 28 pt buy (or 32?), we can try both with the monk having the scout/skillmonkey role, or the tank/combat role. Let's go with the scout/skillmonkey monk (or druid) character first.

Saph or another DM (you, Tidesinger?) should possibly be the one to choose a reasonable encounter for a 1st level party (or whatever level you wish to see playtested).

- Giacomo

mostlyharmful

2009-06-22, 04:28 PM

{Scrubbed}

Signmaker

2009-06-22, 04:48 PM

Your +11 reflex save works half the time. Half the time you take no damage.

Sorry to quip, but he's apparently got Improved Evasion. Which means half-or-nothing regarding reflex saves.

Edit: Woah, you deleted that post before I got mine in. Talk about super-ninja. :smallredface:

Chaelos

2009-06-22, 04:56 PM

I have to say, though, that for a gestalt Wizard limited almost entirely to core... Monk has come in pretty handy. Especially since the DM was kind enough to let me tag in Kung-Fu Genius.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 04:57 PM

Only intercepting where rules are breached or where you misinterpret me completely, otherwise we agree to disagree...:smallwink:

See page 25 comment. When a mage casts Polymorph he chooses the form that the recipiant gets. whether that form is tailored to the recepient in question depends on whether its you or ANYONE ELSE describing the encounter. If it's you you choose good forms for the Monk and everyone else gets crap forms. Why is that?

Never assumed that.

the spellcasters don't lose their casting,

they do, in forms that cannot speak, that cannot handle spell components and that cannot do fine manipulations for somatic components.

the melee types pull out a spare huge sized weapon from their HHHs toss it on the ground, get the buff and go to town,

At the levels we are talking about (7 & up) they abandon the use of their main regular magic weapon. Thus carrying a huge weapon instead "just in case" for that min/lvl is mere nonsense. (apart from that, most huge weapons will not even fit into the HHH EDIT: just looked up - it could fit, depends on how the DM interprets the 8 cube feet holding capacity - would a huge greatsword with 12 feet length fit? EDIT END).

rogues built for combat get multiple attack forms.... this isn't hard stuff.

It is hard stuff since the alter self description completely contradicts it. Without the multiattack feat, they incure also quite substantial penalties.

If you choose forms they are arbitrarily the worst ones you can find. wow. When you turn the mage into a spider and the rogue into a buffalo they lose. I'm astonished.

I'm astonished that you cannot see that most classes are quite limited as to what forms they should choose, whereas druid and monk are not.
Yet you wish to ban the buff for one and allow it for the other.
Do you really think the monk is so overpowered otherwise? :smallbiggrin:

no. not fighters. If the Polymorph line is fully on then you may as well pay an NPC expert or warrior to take the Buff since then they don't get a chunk of the XP and GP.

Unfortunately they do not have the bonus feats or class abilities to make this worthwhile which you keep ignoring.

You drew no flak for that. What you drew flak from is for building a set of Monks that needed MULTIPLE buffs every combat to stay relivant. This is a backpocket cannon you whip out when you NEED it not every fight.

No, I drew flak for daring to suggest a monk should get buffs. When I proposed a method to do it even without caster help, people went entirely nuts. Sigh. :smallsigh:

See comment above, backpocket cannon. Oh, and Alter Self has a pretty good duration from the get go, plus if the buffer does this with his action it's on for the beat stick from the first round and this is why most parties have a scout and a marching order and try to minimize that because yes, surprise rounds hurt, they always do. One of the few things that stays the same from the crapshoot levels to rocket tag.

I read this paragraph several times and I still do not understand it.

Because there is no 'morphing' family. The class is top tier mostly due to full casting and free associate meatshield, the two dump stats it gets from Wildshape (it's main benefit) are minor. See comments on synergy, full casting, the different benefits of wildshape/polymorph, in fact just reread the last four pages.

"minor" is kind of...fascinating .:smallsmile:

Yes, I'm sure you don't. The several comments in question point out the different levels of access across the party and across levels, the different benefits of Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object and Shapechange as compared to Wildshape. hmmm, yes, I see why you dropped those.

Yes, because they did not matter. Druid gets large forms unlimited by HD at level 8 24/7. Others have to hope for that 1/day buff to get - admittedly somewhat better -forms for 1 min/lvl, eating a standard buff action. And they cannot afford to focus their entire combat strategy on them that the druid could with wildshape.
So please, if you ban polymorph, ban both, or do not complain about class imbalance.

It's listing says it attacks with each head as part of being a Hydra, it's stat block gets all the heads attacking, a head is not a limb and it is part of being a hydra to be able to take multiple bite attacks, you get them. This is the difference between natural attacks and iterative attacks as a humanoid. If the SRD had a monster with seventeen arms and you Polyed into it you wouldn't get to use all seventeen to make attacks since they aren't natural attacks, there is a creature with natural attacks based on number of heads and you do get them.

The stat block does not mean anything. The spell description is all that counts. Do you think the designers so inept as to open the opporutnity for 12 attacks/round for 7th level characters? That alter self line was explicitly put in there to avoid this hydra cheese. And still you insist.

So, to sum up your summing up of my post. I disagree with everything you've brought away from it on one level or another. I have listened to you, you seem to have read some of what I've written and it seems we will have to simply disagree since nothing you've posted in the last two years has convinced me of much of anything and nothing I've posted to you has been understood by the looks of things.

Which is sad. But maybe the upcoming playtesting can convince you. *shrug*.

I'm forced to think this is some kind of postmodern pseudo-ironic signiture thing going on, maybe it's the key to understanding your psyche, maybe sufficient meditation on this pointless flourish will open up a way into your world wherein we get the joke.... maybe not. certainly unneeded given the site gives each posts author right up the top there.

Hm, at long last I'll comment on this. What I sig and what I post underneath each post is entirely my decision, not yours (as long as it is within forum rules).
And a signature is vastly different from the information at the SIDE of the post. Quite a few people do it, here, and on other boards.

I kindly ask you to leave to each poster his or her habits, without questioning their psyche or you'll bring down closure on this thread quite fast, I fear.

- Giacomo

Logalmier

2009-06-22, 05:16 PM

Hm, at long last I'll comment on this. What I sig and what I post underneath each post is entirely my decision, not yours (as long as it is within forum rules).
And a signature is vastly different from the information at the SIDE of the post. Quite a few people do it, here, and on other boards.

I kindly ask you to leave to each poster his or her habits, without questioning their psyche or you'll bring down closure on this thread quite fast, I fear.

- Giacomo

Yeah, I don't agree with Giacomo most of the time, but I have to say it seems like a petty thing to squabble over. Leave Giacomo and his habits alone.

mostlyharmful

2009-06-22, 05:32 PM

Only intercepting where rules are breached or where you misinterpret me completely, otherwise we agree to disagree...:smallwink:

fair enough.

Never assumed that.

Yes you did, see below.

they do, in forms that cannot speak, that cannot handle spell components and that cannot do fine manipulations for somatic components.

Why would they choose those forms?

At the levels we are talking about (7 & up) they abandon the use of their main their regular magic weapon. Thus carrying a huge weapon instead "just in case" for that min/lvl is mere nonsense. (apart from that, most huge weapons will not even fit into the HHH).

It's perfectly reasonable nonsense when the Poly line is engaged, and at those levels your 'main weapon' is basically a magic version of a normal one, not so huge a lose when you've got the bonusses that Polymorph opens up. plus if you really really really miss it (say, you're fighting incorporeals) there's always the magic weapon spell.

It is hard stuff since the alter self description completely contradicts it. Without the multiattack feat, they incure also quite substantial penalties.

The hydra is an attack form that doesn't have multiple limbs and doesn't use the iterative attack rules, animals often have claw/claw/bite routines that are less powerful but they do give pounce so it balances somewhat.

I'm astonished that you cannot see that most classes are quite limited as to what forms they should choose, whereas druid and monk are not.
Yet you wish to ban the buff for one and allow it for the other.
Do you really think the monk is so overpowered otherwise? :smallbiggrin:

They are limited, yet those limits contain enough distilled win to make it nonimportant. see treant.

And No, i don't think the Monk is too overpowered otherwise.:smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately they do not have the bonus feats or class abilities to make this worthwhile which you keep ignoring.

They don't need them. I don't keep ignoring it it just doesn't matter as much as the share of party loot and xp that comes along with this meatshield. If Polymorph is fully on you can use them as a glass cannon in combat with essentially nothing at stake and they'll be just about on par with the fighter role, a polymorphed fighter will be better but we're playing with full bore casting here so who cares since the casters will blow away most anyone who isn't one of them.

No, I drew flak for daring to suggest a monk should get buffs. When I proposed a method to do it even without caster help, people went entirely nuts. Sigh. :smallsigh:

Not in the threads I read. You tried to show the Monks usefullness by showing how they were powerful with some combination of successive buffs.. Not by using their class features. In combat it eats actions and slots, in teams it makes you dependant on the buffer, with NPC casting or items it makes you dependant on those.... You drew flak for a build that relies on a steady stream of buffs and safe buffing rounds every time you fought.

I read this paragraph several times and I still do not understand it.

Looking at it I can see why. Sorry. Lots of in house jargon and half finished thoughts. my bad.

To translate - 'See comment above [Alter Self's earlier availability], backpocket cannon [an emergency action to pull your team out of a tactical hole, not to be relied apon as it eats too many resources or is too powerful to be used regularly since it removes a great deal of the challenge, and thus fun, of the game].

Oh, and Alter Self has a pretty good duration from the get go, [making Alter Self useful for mid range time scale buffing quite early in level termsplus if the buffer does this with his action it's on for the beat stick from the first round [Since you are focussing here on the user of the polymorph spell not having it available early in the combat I was pointing out that since the mage can drop it on the fighter it isn't a huge action imposition given that is their role in the first place

and this is why most parties have a scout and a marching order [in order to minimize the chances of this happening and maximize the chances of them being able to quickly respond I've seen parties go to ridiculous lengths during play, seriously hilarious provided you haven't got a problem wasting time on them arguing the percentages]and try to minimize that because yes, surprise rounds hurt, they always do.[the early warning system and such is never fool proof and the short duration on polymorph is indeed one of it's major drawbacks but I'm trying to say that those can be at least somewhat mitigated

One of the few things that stays the same from the crapshoot levels [1-3 when you've got no real capabilities and you can go from full health to dead with the roll of a dice whatever your build] to rocket tag [13+ when you're throwing effects around that either get through and wipe the other guy out or it just bounces off them. In 3.5 the style of gameplay varies hugely through the levels and surprise rounds are one of the very few things that stay pretty much just as sucky to be on the receiving end of throughout].

"minor" is kind of...fascinating .:smallsmile:

''minor'' here is compared to full casting and a free cohort.

Yes, because they did not matter. Druid gets large forms unlimited by HD at level 8 24/7. Others have to hope for that 1/day buff to get - admittedly somewhat better -forms for 1 min/lvl, eating a standard buff action. And they cannot afford to focus their entire combat strategy on them that the druid could with wildshape.
So please, if you ban polymorph, ban both, or do not complain about class imbalance.

They mattered a great deal for showing the difference in effect on the game of the poly line and the Wildshape class feature which is what we were discussing.

I find a much better thing to nerf is the full casting angle of the druid. the Wildshape is a powerful feature but nowhere near the added uber that poly effects on anyone on the team is.

The stat block does not mean anything. The spell description is all that counts. Do you think the designers so inept as to open the opporutnity for 12 attacks/round for 7th level characters? That alter self line was explicitly put in there to avoid this hydra cheese. And still you insist.

Yes, yes I do. These are the same designers that put in Candles of Invocation and Dust of Choking and Sneezing here. That alter self line couldn't have been put in for the hydra since it can't be used to turn into one, it was put in so you couldn't have a rogue turn into a race with sixteen arms and get sixteen attacks with enchanted weapons from level 3. Not my fault if it doesn't apply to natural attacks. And I don't even think this is particually cheesey compared with some of what you've been throwing around but hey ho.

Which is sad. But maybe the upcoming playtesting can convince you. *shrug*.

Maybe. I doubt it but I try to keep an open mind. I will be keeping track of it.

Hm, at long last I'll comment on this. What I sig and what I post underneath each post is entirely my decision, not yours (as long as it is within forum rules).
And a signature is vastly different from the information at the SIDE of the post. Quite a few people do it, here, and on other boards.

I kindly ask you to leave to each poster his or her habits, without questioning their psyche or you'll bring down closure on this thread quite fast, I fear.

- Giacomo

Ok. Just wondering since the site allows you to add stuff into the end of your posts. I wasn't questioning your psyche, it was a tongue in cheek reference to the inability of the two of us to see eye to eye on this topic. plus a bit of late night solipsistic meandering... Far be it from me to close this thread since it would simply spawn so many many more so for whatever it's worth to you I appologize for antagonizing and promise not to do it again.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 05:36 PM

Maybe. I doubt it but I try to keep an open mind. I will be keeping track of it.
Dude, join up with him, me and Stoopidtallkid. We can make a party and go on a dungeoncrawl.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-22, 05:42 PM

I'll sleep now and will post more on Wednesday (away from internet until then).

Meanwhile, eagerly awaiting the setting...

- Giacomo

T.G. Oskar

2009-06-22, 06:35 PM

OO, I was eagerly awaiting that someone mentioned the Giamonk. Who would have imagined that Giacomo himself would do so.

Yeah, it takes a lot of tweaking to work a Monk to proper fighting capability. And when I mean a lot, I mean it's rather impossible to work it out without at least summoning a splatbook. A Paladin can be made workable with core rules only (not perfectly workable, but the charging builds recall some of their lost respect). Monks, although they have nifty abilities, end up suffering a lot in Core, because they use a load of stats that end up working for too little (Paladin need STR, CHA at top, good CON for high HP and Fortitude, and a minimum of 14 WIS for spells; Monks need STR for damage and hit, DEX for AC and Reflex, CON for HP and Fortitude, and WIS for AC and Will, each no higher than the other, in order to be roughly decent)

I recently took the chance of playing a Monk, which is bizarre given that I usually don't play anything other than hybrid characters (mostly Paladin, actually) I've managed to do not exactly a monster, but a workable build for Monk that has two excellent saves and monster AC at level 5, ECL 7. Even I realize that full Monk won't work it out, which is why I'm planning to diversify into Psionics. Notice that I have to split from Monk to make it workable, though for the moment it's pretty useful. Still: 22 Dex, 20 Wis, and a potential for a minimum of 22 AC just starting isn't bad. And even then, Fort sucks badly (it was roll-wise, so the rolls were not as powerful as you'd wanted, and there was no ability score point-buy choice)

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-22, 06:36 PM

The problem, Tidesinger, is, that people might object, if I choose one or the other - possibly maintaining that the monk can only shine in that or that environment.

Having said that, what about the test of might? I guess how the monk performs in group play is what everyone is interested in.

Core, 28 pt buy (or 32?), we can try both with the monk having the scout/skillmonkey role, or the tank/combat role. Let's go with the scout/skillmonkey monk (or druid) character first.

Saph or another DM (you, Tidesinger?) should possibly be the one to choose a reasonable encounter for a 1st level party (or whatever level you wish to see playtested).

- GiacomoEach of us making a party? I recommend you using every resource availible, including the best point-buy you can. The ToM is brutal. Also, we can do core-only, but I don't recommend it. I will if you will, but the splatbook creep is vital to even having a chance.

Lvl 10-11 is availible. I recommend building your party at ECL 11. The 10- is just there to trick people into dying easier. 12-13 is also availible, but from what I know, it is much, much more dangerous.

Flickerdart

2009-06-22, 06:37 PM

2 LA? What race/template? If it's Dark and Mineral Warrior, then you can see what's doing the heavy lifting.

Yukitsu

2009-06-22, 06:53 PM

1. a masterwork item exists for all skills. That is what the PHB says. It is up to the DM and the player to work out how this tool looks like in the respective campaign. Everyone is free to houserule certain MW tools do not exist in their games, but from a game mechanics viewpoint, a +2 circumstance bonus from a 50gp tool is expected to exist for most skills (others explicitly stated may be more expensive).

"Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack." ~ SRD

Thereby meaning that if you can't find a related tool to the check (in particular UMD) then the rule for a mastercraft tool cannot apply, as you don't have a related applicable item. It does not in fact state that all skills have master work tools related to them, either explicitly, nor implicitly. As well, 3.0 has a mastercraft specific item for knowledge, which costs significantly more than the 50 listed as used in your build.

2. A higher hide check than the opponent's spot check means you will manage the hide check MORE than half the time. In particular when range penalties (-1 per 10ft) enter the picture.

Yours however, is not higher, it is equal. Prior to range considerations, you do have a 45% success rate, which is lesser than the success of spot rate.

3. 200k of equipment plus some wands and permanent enlarge up are well within the wealth of a level 20 character.

Granted, however you also stated that you were not reliant on any more than a few pieces of gear, which is clearly false in this instance. Your build as well uses several other expensive items on which it relies for other tasks.

4. When using a wand in a surprise round and winning initiative even a solar cannot do anything to react in a core environment until its initiative count. For instance, it cannot cast greater dispel magic in the surprise round when it is surprised.

However, it then has a guaranteed chance of getting its initiative at a range of 320 feet, and has a moderate chance of winning initiative with no option for the monk to either charge, or to prevent a greater dispel magic at all (if necessary) and if the monk does charge, he has one of at least two necessary buff spells.

5. Even unbuffed, the level 20 monk I posted has a higher to hit than +21.

To quote your build:
[/quote]UNARMED ATTACK: +21 (+21/+21/+21/+16/+11), blinking; Damage 4d8+2d6 +3, 6d8+2d6 +4 enlarged; [/quote]

Which is, as said, a +21 to hit value.

6. You do not get -5 to moving silently when you move, but only when you move at a higher speed than half-speed.

Do you regularly do so when not in a party consisting of at least one other member with a lower hide check? In other words, when solo, do you travel by moving at half speed at all times?

7. Providing the solar with non-core spell buffs does not mean anything in a core-only environment.

My statement of non core buffs relates to the statement that outside of core benefits Solars more than, or as much as, monks.

8. Etheral jaunt at will does not make you immune to any ambush, since "at will" still means you have to get the effect off on your turn. Unfortunately, not possible when flat-footed (and the surprise round is against you).

Fortunately, one may use a standard action in every round of the day to cast immediately another etherial jaunt as soon as the other expires by readying actions.

9. 28 skeletons likewise do not prvent all forms of ambush except some reflex based spells, since the typical archer ambush will take out the necromancer immediately. Some tumbling characters can at level 7 easily also tumble through skeletons. Plus, some may attack from above (flying, jumping)

Archers provide some issue, though NPC archers are not capable of defeating a level 7 wizard in a single round, after which said skeletons may ready actions to move in front of arrow attacks at your command. As well, tumblers must pass a DC 25, 27, 29 tumble check to move through all the squares with enemies in them ("25: Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC." ~SRD) which few NPCs at level 7 can manage, if any, on a regular, predictable basis. On the issue of flyers, there are few flyers that are both powerful, skilled at hiding, and intelligent. For example, air elementals are powerful, intelligent enough to use tactics and have great flying, they have a negative hide score. A succubous on the other hand is good at hiding, good at flying, but has very little direct killing power. Not even enough to take out a wizard (who, for argument sake, will have protection from X up, preventing charm from taking hold)

10. Phantom steed does not help vs an ambush, since either it is not up yet (necessitating 10 min casting time!), or it is up and is killed immediately in the ambush (due to its meager hp).

It has a 7 hour duration, which means it will be up. In addition, attacks spent killing it saved the wizard from a round of attacks, which then allows the "ambush" to proceed as a normal combat. Regardless of the phantom steeds survival, the horse did achieve its intended goal, which was to allow the wizard to survive.

More importantly, it lets the wizard travel through open plains, even if taking a circuitous route and still save time off the journey, thus preventing the possibility of danger.

Lastly, a double moving phantam steed of that level moves 240 feet per round. At this level any enemy will spot them at approximately 200 some. The phantasmal steed is beside them before they know it, and when both sides have failed on the surprise round, the phantom steed will be 280 past.

11. You cannot turn into something with burrow speed or eath glide with alter self in the core game.

Somewhat contingent upon what the DM considers a playable race. Alternatively, use it as an early means of flight, which is in many cases and equivalent means to avoid serious encounters appropriate for that level, though generally not ambushes that you couldn't detect admittedly. Noting however, that not many classes survive ambushes easily at this level.

12. Warweaver wizard is non-core.

That's fine. It simply means it won't happen in core. However, few campaigns are strictly core, which is what you are arguing. People in real campaigns use polymorph on team mates to make them better outside core. Inside core, they do it to pull tricks, even if not in major combats.

13. While many forms of shapechange-relevant "familiarity" are possible, it remains entirely DM-dependant.

Not necessarily. Players may do whatever is necessary to become familiar with any existing form, and players doing so should be outside of DM control.

14. Lesser planar binding is not "free", it carries risks.

This is not particularly true when discussing a slightly tougher opponent. A CR 5 horse? Not so much. As well, those risks should only be made manifest when the player is a particularly poor bargainer. If they are able to offer something of legitimate value to the horse, then punishment is a punitive effort to discourage intelligent play.

15. Rightous might spell can be activated with UMD (scroll) or cast from ring of spell storing. Nothing illegal about it.

I'll note that your build does not have one, and in fact has two others already. As well, that's a 50 000 GP one time cost with a 1250 GP cost on a per use basis.
As well "Spell Storing, Minor
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells that the wearer can cast."As you cannot cast this spell, you cannot use it in a spell storing ring. Lastly, "A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring," implies that you must in fact cast the spell on the ring, which one cannot do with a personal spell. I can certainly see that this is splitting hairs, but I do think that it's a point worth noting. As to using UMD to scroll it, you spend 2775 per combat to do this, spending the surprise and initiative rounds in using them. In either event, you may not use both and attack before reciprocation, and you cannot expect this to be a consistant strategy.

16. A commoner has less class abilities than a monk.

The majority, however, are superfluous when compared to the effects that magic items are having on that build. If a commoner can in fact beat the same challenges as the monk by using the same equipment, we can consider that the challenge is being solved by equipment, not the monks abilities.

Apart from that, he raises some good points that maybe are answered in more playtesting of monks of my design.

Thanks. I try to be reasonable when I can.

T.G. Oskar

2009-06-22, 06:54 PM

2 LA? What race/template? If it's Dark and Mineral Warrior, then you can see what's doing the heavy lifting.

No templates. It's the Psionic Githzerai from the XPH.

While it has the punishment of 2 LA, it is naturally psionic (for the future Psionic PrC progression), it has respectable DEX and WIS boosts (though not sure about the penalties), a subpar Power Resistance (which through transparency turns into shoddy Spell Resistance), and about 5 psi-like abilities, the most important of which is Inertial Armor 3/day. If Charisma were to be added, then Psionic Daze 3/day would also be superb on early levels. Catfall allows a soft fall for the first levels, then combines with Tumble and the slow fall ability for around 50 feet of free fall without damage (not that it's entirely useful, tho). And, Psionic Plane Shift 1/day at 11th level.

I've found they're good enough for Monks, actually. At least, if you're planning on going Psionic Fist, or multiclassing to another Psionic class later on. The feats from XPH aren't so bad, either (Psionic Fist/Greater Psionic Fist, Deep Impact, Stand Still for the bizarre tripping monk, Wounding Attack for the Monk ACF builds)

Nothing that an unarmed variant Swordsage can beat up and eat for dinner, but it's interesting enough if you look at it.

Roland St. Jude

2009-06-22, 07:28 PM

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it friendly in here. That includes avoiding passive-aggressive flaming, needless needling, and general hostility.

Glimbur

2009-06-22, 08:59 PM

I built a Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) that's better than a monk.

Do we want to talk straight damage? I can charge for six attacks at +33 each, average damage a round 190.5, assuming Haste doesn't give me a bonus attack. The fourth through sixth attacks break DR/Epic.

Also better AC and HP than a 20th level Joker monk. A lot better HP... 233 versus 123 assuming the "Beating Batman" thread is still the latest build.

This totemist is detailed here: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134365

We could also talk grappling. A very similar totemist gets +46/+41/+36 grapple check with Improved grab. He does only 1d8+10 damage with the second and third grapple checks... next round he uses six natural attacks, the last three again breaking DR/Epic. This guy is here: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=134374

Either of these are buffing with just all-day soulmelds and a free action to activate boots of haste.

Flickerdart

2009-06-22, 09:02 PM

Glimbur, it's pathetically simple to make a build that's better than a Monk. And you're trying, which is almost like cheating by this point.

Nohwl

2009-06-22, 10:07 PM

"Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack." ~ SRD

Thereby meaning that if you can't find a related tool to the check (in particular UMD) then the rule for a mastercraft tool cannot apply, as you don't have a related applicable item. It does not in fact state that all skills have master work tools related to them, either explicitly, nor implicitly. As well, 3.0 has a mastercraft specific item for knowledge, which costs significantly more than the 50 listed as used in your build.

maybe the masterwork tool for umd is a really nice pointy hat. why else would wizards wear them?

Yukitsu

2009-06-22, 10:11 PM

maybe the masterwork tool for umd is a really nice pointy hat. why else would wizards wear them?

They don't have UMD however. Note as well, it has to help you pretend you're a paladin, and black guard, and assassin, and cleric, and shujenja, and know how to wave wands, and read scrolls, and punch kittens, and bard, and ranger, and druid, and etc. Not just pretend you're a wizard.

Signmaker

2009-06-22, 10:13 PM

They don't have UMD however. Note as well, it has to help you pretend you're a paladin, and black guard, and assassin, and cleric, and shujenja, and know how to wave wands, and read scrolls, and punch kittens, and bard, and ranger, and druid, and etc. Not just pretend you're a wizard.

...Punch kittens? What kind of casters do you play? :smalleek:

Yukitsu

2009-06-22, 10:15 PM

A lawful good grey guard, who uses an obscure variant for making scrolls, where instead of a scroll, you have a kitten, and instead of reading it, you punch it. Only for the greater good of course. :smallwink:

Actually, I just put that there to see who would notice it.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 10:20 PM

I built a Totemist (Magic of Incarnum) that's better than a monk.

Your build is non-core and therefore broken.

...Punch kittens? What kind of casters do you play? :smalleek:
Punching kittens? 'Swounds, you fiend! Kicking puppies just isn't good enough for you, is it?

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-22, 10:23 PM

...Punch kittens? What kind of casters do you play? :smalleek:

My caster? My caster is Ylla Kittenbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5295809&postcount=17), Lawful Good Paladin of Kitten Slaying.

Glimbur

2009-06-22, 10:26 PM

My point was that there are better ways mechanically to express "mobile fighter who doesn't use weapons". Totemist is one way to do that. That person there has a 60' move speed (90 with haste), Pounce, and Dim Door 50' at will. Hitting more accurately and grappling better are icing on the cake.

Nohwl

2009-06-22, 10:27 PM

They don't have UMD however. Note as well, it has to help you pretend you're a paladin, and black guard, and assassin, and cleric, and shujenja, and know how to wave wands, and read scrolls, and punch kittens, and bard, and ranger, and druid, and etc. Not just pretend you're a wizard.

maybe it can change into the other stuff, like a holy symbol, or a book of poems, or a book of how to punch kittens.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 10:32 PM

maybe it can change into the other stuff, like a holy symbol, or a book of poems, or a book of how to punch kittens.

So it changes shape and form in addition to everything else. Sounds like it could be expensive.

Yukitsu

2009-06-22, 10:44 PM

maybe it can change into the other stuff, like a holy symbol, or a book of poems, or a book of how to punch kittens.

One wonders what kind of man would write an entire book on how to punch kittens. :smallconfused:

That aside, that's clearly a magic item, rather than a mastercrafted mundane item. Probably wouldn't stack with a circlet of persuasion.

Doc Roc

2009-06-22, 10:46 PM

Notes:
As a gm has been requested for a run against a few different standard monsters, I'm stepping up to the plate. Consider this a formal declaration of intent. I will, against my better judgement, also allow a party of four direct access to the Test of Spite dungeon. Choose wisely.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-22, 10:52 PM

Shotgun. I call... Well, Druid and Giacomo will either go for melee or skillmonkey... so I'll be...

Druid is a healer...

Um...

Arcane caster?

Nohwl

2009-06-22, 11:12 PM

One wonders what kind of man would write an entire book on how to punch kittens. :smallconfused:

That aside, that's clearly a magic item, rather than a mastercrafted mundane item. Probably wouldn't stack with a circlet of persuasion.

the kind that doesn't like lolcats.

it seems easier to make it a magic item, but if i had to make it mundane items, just don't have it change into whatever you needed. just like a bag full of nicer items to help you pretend to be the class needed. having it as a magic item seems like it would be easier to carry because of how many different casting classes there are.

that's the only thing i can think of for a masterwork umd item.

Zaq

2009-06-22, 11:16 PM

Your build is non-core and therefore broken.

While I can see your tongue wiggling out of the hole it has bored in your cheek, it makes me sad to see how many people truly believe this.

I really don't understand it.

Raewyn

2009-06-22, 11:42 PM

the kind that doesn't like lolcats.

it seems easier to make it a magic item, but if i had to make it mundane items, just don't have it change into whatever you needed. just like a bag full of nicer items to help you pretend to be the class needed. having it as a magic item seems like it would be easier to carry because of how many different casting classes there are.

that's the only thing i can think of for a masterwork umd item.

With no disrespect to you, most DMs (including mine) would reject that concept (assuming they didn't just laugh in your face).

Personally, I think that there should be some room for a tool in the process of performing a skill before I'd allow a masterwork version for a skill bump. The examples given in the SRD (Healer's Kit, Disguise Kit, Climber's Kit and Thieves' Tools) are very reasonable (doubly so since the first two are expended after 10 uses).

sofawall

2009-06-23, 12:15 AM

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 08:34 AM

I really don't understand it.

In the past, monk threads had battled over whether their discussion should be in or out of core. It was eventually agreed (somewhat grudgingly) that a core discussion would be best, as while the monk does benefit quite a lot from splatbooks, it becomes a battle of "who is encyclopedia brown", rather than a somewhat constructive discussion. Of course, this also spawns the "you posted a splat book build, raaage" posts, which the totemist happened to trigger.

That being said, the question of the nature of a UMD item doesn't quite fit in this particular thread. Back in the Joker Monk thread, it was discussed mainly because the Joker Monk is a build, and as a build should be universal with suggestions for tweaks, rather than the other way around. Since we're not quite discussing builds, and instead debating over the monk class, there shouldn't be as much of an issue with introducing what is essentially a DM variant, akin to having your own specialized animals for Summon Nature's Ally.

As to the effectiveness of the monk, I have said my piece on threads before this and I'd really prefer not getting back in to the nitty gritties.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 08:42 AM

In the past, monk threads had battled over whether their discussion should be in or out of core. It was eventually agreed (somewhat grudgingly) that a core discussion would be best, as while the monk does benefit quite a lot from splatbooks, it becomes a battle of "who is encyclopedia brown", rather than a somewhat constructive discussion. Of course, this also spawns the "you posted a splat book build, raaage" posts, which the totemist happened to trigger.

The silly part of this is that people stopped playing core since the first expansion book was published.

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 08:59 AM

The silly part of this is that people stopped playing core since the first expansion book was published.

Yes and no. As it always should be, splatbook usage depends on the group involved. I've got a few games I'm in which are core only, just to keep things simple. Discussing in core isn't all that bad of a thing. Heck, we've already got so many issues IN core for the monk that probing out of core is just going to be one major headache. I'm of the opinion that rather than pick posts apart sentence per sentence for entire pages, it's better that we try and tackle issues one or two at a time. Who knows, we might actually get somewhere.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-23, 09:16 AM

In the past, monk threads had battled over whether their discussion should be in or out of core. It was eventually agreed (somewhat grudgingly) that a core discussion would be best,
I don't recall anything had really been decided on that. There was just one guy who kept proclaiming that core was so exquisitely balanced but nothing else was, but I don't think anyone else ever believed him. Still, core does make for an easier comparison, even if few people ever seem to play core-only since the advent of the first splatbooks.

That being said, the question of the nature of a UMD item doesn't quite fit in this particular thread.
The discussion of it, not particularly, since there doesn't seem to be many people who believe it exists. However, the Joke Monk build doesn't work without it (it doesn't work with it either until level 14 or so, and from that point on it gets upstaged by all other PHB classes and two of the NPC classes, but that's another matter) so the relevant question whether a build is representative if it relies on dubious rules interpretations that most DMs seem not to allow. YMMV on that.

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 09:30 AM

I don't recall anything had really been decided on that. There was just one guy who kept proclaiming that core was so exquisitely balanced but nothing else was, but I don't think anyone else ever believed him. Still, core does make for an easier comparison, even if few people ever seem to play core-only since the advent of the first splatbooks.

Yeah, that actually sounds about right. I think the anti-joker posters eventually just conceded the splatbook issue and decided to fight back with only core, cause it proved a better point.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-23, 10:21 AM

Masterwork item to improve UMD checks? Well, why not? I've seen masterwork items to improve most other skills. If I were to offer such a thing in my own campaigns, it would probably be a small book that amounted to a "cheat sheet" of common item activation techniques, offering a +2 bonus to UMD save for the most esoteric of items.

For example, the guide might state the following:

"Wands. In general, these are small pointy objects, not to be confused with Rods, which range from large pointy objects to implements of vicious blunt trauma. Wands are generally aimed or tapped at the target, while uttering a word or phrase. Since most wands are made by Wizards, expect the word to be in some exotic language, such as Draconic. Note also the material of the wand. A wand that uses fire magic will likely look charred or be ash grey, if made of wood (as most wands are). Common phrases for wands include:

SHAZBAT
MOGREF
DALTO
VAS FLAM
GRAV POR
PWN or OWNZ".

At risk of flames, I do agree with Giacomo on one central point. Melee in 3.X requires buffs to be made effective. Monks are a class that's highly optimized to work with buffing strategies, due to their versatility. Few classes can really say they benefit equally from Magic Fang and Magic Weapon, which Monks do. Further, as he's pointed out, no matter what you turn into with magic, everything has an Unarmed Strike, and the Monk's is pretty nifty.

I once ran a short game featuring a Monk of a Dragon Magazine race, who were +2 LA Large Humanoids taken from South American myths.

At first I was dubious about the +2 LA, since the stat mods were rather light, but one thing I found out quickly was that Monks, like most other melee characters, greatly benefit from increased size. I'd actually go out on a limb and say Monks benefit more from increased size than other classes (I'll expand on that if pressed).

Another strange thing I've discovered is that monsters make for excellent Monks. The most challenging NPC I ever used was a Half-Fiendish Centaur Monk. The reason for this is quite simple; ECL almost never equals CR.

In a party, the NPC would have failed due to loss of HD, but as a monster, it's natural abilities and high stats, combined with the talents of the monk, made it a horrendous encounter.

As I've noted elsewhere, the Monk is also unusual that it's one of the few classes that benefits from extremely large point buys (or extremely lucky die rolls).

A SAD type class, such as the Wizard, wouldn't really benefit from having 18 in every stat. The Dex, Con, and Int would be pretty sweet, and a case can be made for even the Wis, but most of what a Wizard does would find Str and Cha to be superfluous.

Conversely, classes like the Paladin are bottled lightning with high stats in every category.

This is a legacy that goes back to the beginnings of AD&D. If you rolled "OK" stats, you played a Fighter* or a Wizard. If you rolled "OMG" stats, you played a Paladin or a Monk.

It has no real place in a game supposedly built on a stat array, however. What I'm getting at is, the Monk is a throwback, of sorts. He belongs in groups where die rolls are the norm, and you play a Monk if you have luck that would get you tossed out of a Vegas Casino.

Playing a good Monk is like winning the lottery.

*yes, I'm aware that a "true" Fighter wants 13 Str, 13 - 15 Dex, decent Con, 13 Int, and maybe 13 Wis, depending on build. But you CAN build JoJo the Mook with nothing more complex than a good Str and Con and do alright. This has always been true, even back in the days when all you needed to play a Fighter was Str 9.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-23, 10:43 AM

it would probably be a small book that amounted to a "cheat sheet" of common item activation techniques,
One thing, though. How much time does it take you to look up something in a small book? A combat round takes six seconds. There is a reason why books that boost knowledge books aren't in core: knowledge checks are a free action, looking something up in your Junior Woodchucks Manual is not.

VAS FLAM
GRAV POR
Heh. Kal Xen Corp, anyone?

Melee in 3.X requires buffs to be made effective. Monks are a class that's highly optimized to work with buffing strategies, due to their versatility.
Yes to the first point, no to the second. Turns out that most combat buffs work better on full-BAB classes, or classes with Sneak Attack, or classes with other abilities that the monk lacks. The problem is that most monk abilities are easily duplicated by low-level buffs and do not stack. Cast Haste on the fighter and he's happy; cast Haste on the monk and he's wondering what the point is of his fast movement ability. Ditto for Feather Fall and slow fall.

Even funnier, the monk's iconic ability (doing damage with his bare hands) is easily obsoleted by carrying around a cheap piece of metal to hit people with.

benefit equally from Magic Fang and Magic Weapon,
That's not relevant, unless your campaign contains a wand that randomly casts either Fang or Weapon whenever you use it.

no matter what you turn into with magic, everything has an Unarmed Strike,
And that is not relevant either, unless random polymorphs are common in your campaign (and if they are, good luck playing a three-toed sloth). Generally, you get to pick your form (or the party wizard gets to pick, but he's smarter than you are).

I'd actually go out on a limb and say Monks benefit more from increased size than other classes
Actually, full-BAB classes benefit more, as usual.

Another strange thing I've discovered is that monsters make for excellent Monks. The most challenging NPC I ever used was a Half-Fiendish Centaur Monk. The reason for this is quite simple; ECL almost never equals CR.
Yes. As always, the most effective monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk, so obviously three monk levels plus five racial ones is better than eight monk levels. The best monk build around is still monk 1 / druid 19.

As I've noted elsewhere, the Monk is also unusual that it's one of the few classes that needs extremely large point buys (or extremely lucky die rolls).
Fixed that for you. Besides, rolling for stats is sooo last century.

Playing a good Monk is like winning the lottery.
I'd prefer the lottery, thank you very much.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 10:44 AM

Monks are a class that's highly optimized to work with buffing strategies, due to their versatility.
Monks also have SR.

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 10:57 AM

Monks also have SR.

Which they can voluntarily suppress, but I see your point. Monk spell-buffs are only viable if the party has forewarning of an encounter. Otherwise, there's arises the question of having SR to annoy casters or to lower it to accept buffs (but also possibly get hit by spells).

Flickerdart

2009-06-23, 11:01 AM

Which they can voluntarily suppress, but I see your point. Monk spell-buffs are only viable if the party has forewarning of an encounter. Otherwise, there's arises the question of having SR to annoy casters or to lower it to accept buffs (but also possibly get hit by spells).
Not to mention waste a standard action in doing so, thus bogging down both your spellcasters and yourself while you all could have done something actually useful, like kill something (well, the spellcasters, at least, don't know about the Monk).

tenshiakodo

2009-06-23, 11:02 AM

As to the book, well, one would hope that you practice with an item BEFORE you try to use it in combat (unless it's a one-use only type). Ideally, it's a book that you can commit to memory (mostly) and refer to only if you get stuck. The reason you remember it's instructions so well is, well, it's "masterfully" written. ^-^

There's a lot of contention about buffing/form changing and the Monk, I've experienced it go very well, but that doesn't necessarily hold true for all games. It's IMO, after all.

I understand that saying "monsters make good monks" is actually saying "single classed monks suck", just differently. A class should really reward you for single minded dedication to it; unfortunately, like many core classes, the monk seems to punish you more.

A friend of mine recently let me in on his "awesome monk build"....Shapeshift Druid 1/Monk x, and it illustrates the problem quite nicely. Your Monk is vastly improved by not being a pure Monk. Which makes the whole "if you stop being a monk, you stop being a monk" rule really obtuse in implementation.

Similar comments about "Monk is awesome for Gestalt" abound as well. It would seem that Monks have great synergy with....just about anything that isn't a Monk!

It's likely however, to borrow a Blizzard catchphrase, that the Monk is "working as intended". If Monte Cook is to be believed, the Monk may be a clear cut case of rewarding rules mastery. I don't mean this in the cynical "smart players don't play monks" sense either.

If anyone if familiar with Magic the Gathering, they have no doubt heard of the primary three archetypes.

Timmy is the gamer whose eyes get big and round when he imagines himself throwing around 10d6 fireballs or Kung Fu punching out a minotaur. He isn't concerned with optimization, he wants to have fun.

Johnny is the gamer who wants to play around with the game mechanics to provide an unusual result that (hopefully) works. He wants to do his own thing and still have it all work out in the end.

Spike is the optimizer. He wants the most effective and efficient package to work with. He wants to get the job done, right.

Initially, Timmy may find the Monk to be attractive. Depending on his play experience, he'll defend Monks to the end, or quickly move on to "more fun" character choices like Barbarians or Sorcerers.

Spike will look at the Monk the way most people seem to. It's either trash or not worth the effort.

So I feel the Monk is a Johnny class by design. When everyone else discards him, Johnny picks him up and says "I can make this work...there has to be a way". It may be nigh-impossible (like that 2/1 red creature that can't attack or block, or manage to stay in play more than five seconds at a time), but he's still going to give it his best shot.

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 11:06 AM

You bring up a point I agree with: the monk is great as a dip or gestalt option. Mainly this is due to the fact that their most attractive options can be gained within the first few levels (saves, evasion, etc.).

Of course, a dipped or gestalt monk is not a single-class monk.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-23, 11:13 AM

Apologies if this comes out as a double post.

Monks have SR. It's a valid point, and one that DM's must address. I believe I see the idea here "ok, let's face it, on the list of cool buffs, Spell Resistance is low man on totem pole, so let's just give the monk innate SR".

And he's the only class that gets this neat "perk". Unfortunately, the designers left the problems of dealing with SR on a daily basis in the hands of the players. It's about as useful as saying the Monk becomes an Outsider at lvl 20. Well sure, but...what does that actually do?

RAW-wise, there's nothing you can do about it, it generally shoots the whole "let's buff the monk" strategy in the foot, ending the Monk class at the level before Diamond Soul becomes available.

While I believe this is a point where the players must step outside of RAW to address the problem, that unfortunately means I must concede that the monk is not broken by RAW. Which is fine, I never meant to say "monks are flawless". They are very flawed, but not unusable, nor beyond salvation, as many seem to believe.

Monks exist as a challenge for both players and Dungeonmasters. For a long time, people used to joke about the spiked chain being the test for how quickly groups would discard RAW. The Monk class is quite a few pages before that. : )

And even if RAW is not discarded, it still exists as a challenge for experienced players. If, after all, you can make the Monk work, obviously your game fu is advanced.

Tiki Snakes

2009-06-23, 11:14 AM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 11:15 AM

A friend of mine recently let me in on his "awesome monk build"....Shapeshift Druid 1/Monk x, and it illustrates the problem quite nicely. Your Monk is vastly improved by not being a pure Monk. Which makes the whole "if you stop being a monk, you stop being a monk" rule really obtuse in implementation.
The only thing that could possibly make it more awesome is to drop more monk levels in favor of a druid levels :smalltongue:

It's not an issue that occurred to me, even when I played 3.5. It's not really important. But I wouldn't allow such an item unless the PC could give me a really, really good explanation of exactly what it is, and how it actually works.
(If they can give a good, flavourful description/rational, I'd probably just let them have it to reward creativity and immersive thinking, tbh, but this is beside the point.)
In his thread, Giacomo never seems to be able to say what the masterwork item is, other than apparently it exists because it might be possible to have one.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-23, 11:42 AM

Hey, I disagree with some of the masterwork skill items that DO exist, so I perfectly agree with anyone who disapproves of ones that only potentially exist. Since they aren't magical, almost all such items should only grant their bonus in certain situations.

A dark grey suit that helps you hide in the city at night won't work so well in the forest during the day, for example.

All masterwork items are is the "DM's secret rule" in disguise, granting a +2 bonus to a check for player ingeniuty (man I hope I spelled that right).

A UMD item would have to be something specific for the item type in question. Tinted shades that make the subtle nuances of reading the special inks scrolls are written in easier for +2 UMD on scrolls, for example.

Unlike other skills, this one deals directly with magic, so it doesn't necessarily have to conform to real-world logic. For all we know, a special charm worn on a necklace could resonate with magical fields produced by most enchanted items in such a way as to facilitate their usage.

In fact, that's a pretty savvy use for a grey, worn-out Ioun stone (itself technically a magic item, but one so minor that I think it can be overlooked).

(Aside): actually a few of my players have pointed out, in the past, that most magical items are made from what are, in effect, masterwork items themselves. When creating a pair of magical lockpicks, one of my players started with a pair of masterwork thieves tools, then placed a +1 luck bonus on them, and proclaimed them +3 thieves tools (+2 competence, +1 luck).

It's common sense, but I just didn't think about it that way before. (/aside)

Ultimately, however, since we can't point to a RAW example of such an item, the existence of such an item will remain a point of contention. It's something that may exist in a campaign, but cannot be relied upon.

Bizarrely enough, it's actually less likely to be found than core magic items such as potions or scrolls!

With that in mind, I'm afraid we must dismiss the +2 bonus to UMD item from any RAW-based discussion (right up there with items that provide competence bonuses to Truespeak).

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-23, 11:48 AM

It may be nigh-impossible (like that 2/1 red creature that can't attack or block, or manage to stay in play more than five seconds at a time), but he's still going to give it his best shot.

Take it from a red player, red creatures are worthless. A good red player throws Ball Lightning, Blistering Firecats or other fire-and-forget creatures or he's wasting mana. They live to die. In D&D, this does not apply to PCs.

Further, the analogy falls apart because "Johnny" can't make the Monk work and still use the monk class. Sure he could simply play an unarmed Swordsage and be a monk without the monk class. Or he could be a monk 1/druid 19. Point is: He's never a straight Monk. Because Monk works even less than CW Samurai.

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 12:01 PM

Because Monk works even less than CW Samurai.

That's a bit much, eh?

I'd imagine a UMD tool to be like a decoder ring. "THIS COMMAND WORD RHYMES WITH ORANGE."

I believe at one point Giacomo suggested some sort of metal wiring which 'attuned' people to magical forces better as a form of UMD tool.

quick_comment

2009-06-23, 12:06 PM

Kaiyanwang

2009-06-23, 12:14 PM

CW Samurai at least gets full BAB, and can do charge+leap attack+shock trooper fairly well. (It can also go into the ronin prc which lets you put shock trooper in your shock trooper so you can ubercharge while you ubercharge)

Semi-serioulsy: are there CW samurai builds?

Kurald Galain

2009-06-23, 12:15 PM

I believe at one point Giacomo suggested some sort of metal wiring which 'attuned' people to magical forces better as a form of UMD tool.
Sure, but just because he can imagine a handwave doesn't make it RAW or core. Any build that relies on dubious rules interpretations has a decent chance of being disallowed in any random campaign.

Semi-serioulsy: are there CW samurai builds?
Sure. I wrote a guide for that once...

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 12:17 PM

Sure, but just because he can imagine a handwave doesn't make it RAW or core. Any build that relies on dubious rules interpretations has a decent chance of being disallowed in any random campaign.

Understood, and I totally agree with that. Frankly, I think the concept of having masterwork tools for any skill to be silly. Some skills just don't have readily accessible tools unless one really, really stretches the imagination.

Sure. I wrote a guide for that once...

Cute.

Kaiyanwang

2009-06-23, 12:22 PM

Sure. I wrote a guide for that once...

Now you are cruel, KG..*

Just wondering about combos* like the one above with ronin.

*for an NPC

Edit: said for joke, to be clear (it's teh internet)

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-23, 04:39 PM

That's a bit much, eh?

CW Samurai at least gets full BAB, and can do charge+leap attack+shock trooper fairly well. (It can also go into the ronin prc which lets you put shock trooper in your shock trooper so you can ubercharge while you ubercharge)

It's not much if it's just the truth.

As for masterwork items of Whatever: I like to use books if you're a bookish-type. I think of it as the character reading the book every day(or night for those non-sleeping characters) and then making an Intelligence check to retain the knowledge thereof. Then when he needs to use his skill he'll remember a line from the book and spout it off akin to "Carlson and Peters".

Tiki Snakes

2009-06-23, 08:06 PM

The only thing I can imagine a masterwork book helping with is Knowledge (Alphabet), or Profession (English Teacher).

Really, if the item required is a Masterwork Tool, then the skill better normally involve tools at all, for my personal preference.

Doc Roc

2009-06-23, 08:30 PM

This is D&D. Books make everything better.

There are three great laws in D&D:

You will die in the deeps of the earth.
You will not lose caster levels lightly.
You will solve all things with books.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 08:40 PM

This is D&D. Books make everything better.

There are three great laws in D&D:

You will die in the deeps of the earth.
You will not lose caster levels lightly.
You will solve all things with books.

Or web enhancements.

Saph

2009-06-23, 09:19 PM

My approach to the UMD-tool debate would be as follows:

Masterwork Tool, Use Magic Device

This is a book containing descriptions of all common and uncommon magical items. It lists common command words and has diagrams of the precise hand movements required for standard somatic components. Since it attempts to include every standard magical item an adventurer might reasonably encounter, it's a pretty big book.

Weight: 3 lbs

Perusing this tome provides a bonus to a single Use Magic Device check. Since the tome is large and extensive, before you can gain the bonus you must turn to the appropriate page and skim-read the instructions. If you're familiar with the magic item you're attempting to activate, it can be assumed that you've bookmarked the correct page and perusing the tome requires only a standard action. If you're looking up how to use an item that you have not encountered before, perusing the tome takes 1 full minute instead. In either case, this is a manipulation action that requires two free hands (or equivalent).

Once you've performed this action, your next Use Magic Device check, if begun before the end of your next turn, receives a +2 circumstance bonus.

The tome is written in one language, chosen at time of creation. Needless to say, if you can't read the language or are illiterate, you can't use it.

That's how I'd rule it if I was DM. This makes the book useful for activating, say, healing wands outside of battle, but it's impractical to use in the middle of a firefight (which a book should be, unless you're a main character in Read Or Die). I think it's a fair compromise.

- Saph

quick_comment

2009-06-23, 09:24 PM

I would just say the masterwork UMD tool is a cheat sheet of common command words, verbal components, etc.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 09:26 PM

I would just say the masterwork UMD tool is a cheat sheet of common command words, verbal components, etc.

And that costs 50 GP?

Saph

2009-06-23, 09:28 PM

I would just say the masterwork UMD tool is a cheat sheet of common command words, verbal components, etc.

Have you seen how many magic items (not to mention class features) there are in the D&Dverse? I'd say it takes a lot more than a sheet.

- Saph

Yukitsu

2009-06-23, 09:30 PM

I would just say the masterwork UMD tool is a cheat sheet of common command words, verbal components, etc.

Doesn't help in the case of scrolls, where the challenge is in deciphering exactly what is on the scroll, and trying all the combinations at random is pretty time consuming anyway. Or in the case of punching kittens, there are many potentially correct ways in which one may punch a kitten.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-23, 10:15 PM

Have you seen how many magic items (not to mention class features) there are in the D&Dverse? I'd say it takes a lot more than a sheet.

- Saph

Consider: (A) practically every single technological product on Earth requiring an access code (more or less) has "0000" or "password" or "admin" as its default, (B) very few non-technical people change their passwords or change them more than "password" to "passw0rd", and (C) magic-users tend to be lazy.

A cheat sheet would have things like "Try 'password' in the language of the likely crafters" or "Try a simple string of numbers consisting of all the same number or a sequence of numbers" or something like that. It wouldn't be too hard to think up something like that--and if the UMD check failed, then obviously the last person to own the item was smarter than normal. :smallwink:

Yukitsu

2009-06-23, 10:23 PM

Magic items don't have a default access method. :smallconfused:

Tiki Snakes

2009-06-23, 10:27 PM

Consider: (A) practically every single technological product on Earth requiring an access code (more or less) has "0000" or "password" or "admin" as its default, (B) very few non-technical people change their passwords or change them more than "password" to "passw0rd", and (C) magic-users tend to be lazy.

A cheat sheet would have things like "Try 'password' in the language of the likely crafters" or "Try a simple string of numbers consisting of all the same number or a sequence of numbers" or something like that. It wouldn't be too hard to think up something like that--and if the UMD check failed, then obviously the last person to own the item was smarter than normal. :smallwink:

The whole idea of masterwork tools is that you USE them. You do not buy them, study them, and then never need to look at or refer to them ever again. To rule that it could work that way would go beyond allowing a UMD device to exist, straight into making it better than the other masterwork tools, which you actually need to carry with you, and still actually own.

Vica versa, it just doesn't make sense for someone to be stood in battle with a book of possible 'Magic Passwords', whilst wands around or also reading a magic scroll. It just breaks verisimilitude.
How would a PC with the normal componant of two arms even manage to read a book and a scroll at once? draw the umd masterwork almanac one handed?
How does a book of 'likely magic passwords' aid a Warlock in crafting a magical item? (Correct me if I'm wrong, don't they use UMD checks as part of their crafting process?)

No, really, books just don't work as 'Tools' to be used whilst doing something else, for me.

Masterwork Paperback of Jump, in comparison, would give you the masterwork bonus to jump checks on account of it talks about how you should stand, and has a nice etching of a frog on page 5. >_>

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 10:27 PM

Signmaker

2009-06-23, 10:32 PM

The wizard with an INT of 20, who is more intelligent than the smartest human ever to live, is going to have a password of "Hocus Pocus", is he?

Makes sense, in an egotistical kind of way.

Yukitsu

2009-06-23, 10:35 PM

Egotistical is low wis, not high int, IMO.

Worira

2009-06-23, 10:35 PM

No, his password would be "God".

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-23, 10:52 PM

Magic items don't have a default access method. :smallconfused:

How else would randomly muttering magic words make an item work?

The whole idea of masterwork tools is that you USE them. You do not buy them, study them, and then never need to look at or refer to them ever again. To rule that it could work that way would go beyond allowing a UMD device to exist, straight into making it better than the other masterwork tools, which you actually need to carry with you, and still actually own.

Who says you study them once and that's it? Not me; it's a cheat sheet, like for tests, so you'd have it with you (probably scribbled on your arm :smallwink:).

Vica versa, it just doesn't make sense for someone to be stood in battle with a book of possible 'Magic Passwords', whilst wands around or also reading a magic scroll. It just breaks verisimilitude.
How would a PC with the normal componant of two arms even manage to read a book and a scroll at once? draw the umd masterwork almanac one handed?

Nah, it's just a sheet of paper (an expensive one, granted). Really, how hard is it to point a wand in one hand while reading "Hocuspocus!-abracadabra!-shazam!" etc. rapid-fire off a sheet of parchment?

How does a book of 'likely magic passwords' aid a Warlock in crafting a magical item? (Correct me if I'm wrong, don't they use UMD checks as part of their crafting process?)

Ah, but they can take 10 on UMD checks, so obviously they have Magic Words for DummiesTM, not just the Cliff's Notes. :smallbiggrin:

The wizard with an INT of 20, who is more intelligent than the smartest human ever to live, is going to have a password of "Hocus Pocus", is he?

No. The low-level crafter who happened to be stupid/short-sighted enough to let you kill him and take his wand, however....

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 10:57 PM

No. The low-level crafter who happened to be stupid/short-sighted enough to let you kill him and take his wand, however....

To craft a wand, you have to be a caster.

As a caster, it is perfectly reasonable for you to have your highest stat, such as an 16, 18, or 20 if you're a grey elf, in Int or Wis.

So you're either very smart/level headed, or extremely so.

In either instance, you have someone who crafts magic items and will probably include a strong password.

Oh, and the crafter class? Artificer. Want to guess what their primary stat is?

lsfreak

2009-06-23, 11:01 PM

...Of course, those that spend their time crafting items are unlikely to make the activation words some crazy, unpronounceable word. It's perfectly reasonable for a wand of lesser vigor to be triggered by merely saying "heal" in Celestial, because the cleric that makes it sells them at-cost to heroes of the church.

And, let's be honest. UMD, by its won description, is essentially spouting nonsensical words that a wizard is likely to say to trigger the item. They plain and simple don't say the right words nor make the right gestures, they are simply skilled enough to do something close enough to fool it into working.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-23, 11:07 PM

The whole idea of masterwork tools is that you USE them. You do not buy them, study them, and then never need to look at or refer to them ever again. To rule that it could work that way would go beyond allowing a UMD device to exist, straight into making it better than the other masterwork tools, which you actually need to carry with you, and still actually own.

Vica versa, it just doesn't make sense for someone to be stood in battle with a book of possible 'Magic Passwords', whilst wands around or also reading a magic scroll. It just breaks verisimilitude.
How would a PC with the normal componant of two arms even manage to read a book and a scroll at once? draw the umd masterwork almanac one handed?
How does a book of 'likely magic passwords' aid a Warlock in crafting a magical item? (Correct me if I'm wrong, don't they use UMD checks as part of their crafting process?)

No, really, books just don't work as 'Tools' to be used whilst doing something else, for me.

Masterwork Paperback of Jump, in comparison, would give you the masterwork bonus to jump checks on account of it talks about how you should stand, and has a nice etching of a frog on page 5. >_>

First of all, I don't think anyone is trying to say such a reference manual would be universal for all UMD checks. Obviously there'd have to be a book for spell trigger items, a book for spell completion items, a book about use-activated items, etc.

As for the Warlock, he'd have a copy of "Artificing for Dummies", I imagine.

As for the book being not being used, it's a reference manual, of course you "use" it. Remember, once you've successfully used a magic item with UMD, the difficulty goes down; this book would probably only be used for the first time, since, yes, it's impractical to "use a book" in combat.

Just like it's impractical to use most masterwork tools in combat (let's not discuss those spoony bards and their dang instruments).

It costs money, it takes up space in one's inventory, and it grants situational +2 bonuses to some skill rolls. I don't see how that's unbalanced against any other MW tool really; that's all my MW Weaponsmithing tools ever did. Oh sure, it's assumed I'm using them, and I roleplay as much when making Craft checks, but I could just as easily roleplay referring to an instruction manual.

Saying a book isn't a tool because you don't manipulate it is somewhat limiting. When I use a search engine to find information online about a project, I'm certainly using a tool to assist my efforts. Similarly, a mechanic referring to a Chilton's manual to help him repair a car is using a tool to assist him, just as valuable as his collection of Craftsman tools would be.

Now I understand if you wouldn't want such things in your campaigns, and that's fine, as I said before, this isn't RAW, this is definitely a DM decision. I think you're getting hung up on the details of what a tool is considered to be; I fail to see the imbalance of spending money to make the use of skills easier, since there's many ways to do it with other skills in the game.

In the real world, there exist books, documents, and other forms of text that show people how to "hack" computer programs. Even people who have the necessary skills refer to such things when they run into problems. The idea of a book about "hacking" magical items isn't so farfetched in a game where such things are at least uncommon.

But let me ask you this, if a "magical hacking" book did exist, what benefit would it grant a character in your opinion, since you have an issue with the +2 skill bonus?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 11:09 PM

...Of course, those that spend their time crafting items are unlikely to make the activation words some crazy, unpronounceable word.
"A17 delta" is not unpronounceable or hard to remember as a computer password, yet it would take days to brute force with a computer, or guess with a guide to guessing passwords.

Saph

2009-06-23, 11:11 PM

A cheat sheet would have things like "Try 'password' in the language of the likely crafters" or "Try a simple string of numbers consisting of all the same number or a sequence of numbers" or something like that. It wouldn't be too hard to think up something like that.

Exactly. It's not at all hard - and if it's that easy, it's not going to give you a circumstance bonus.

How long does it take you to memorise a single sheet of paper containing simple advice? 30 minutes? Once you've done that, you don't need the sheet anymore. Losing the cheat sheet won't make you worse at the skill, hence a cheat sheet isn't a 'tool'. It's something you learn while you're picking up your skill points.

- Saph

lsfreak

2009-06-23, 11:15 PM

"A17 delta" is not unpronounceable or hard to remember as a computer password, yet it would take days to brute force with a computer, or guess with a guide to guessing passwords.

But here's the thing - in 6 seconds and a successful check, the rogue comes up with something to activate it. Maybe it's not those exact words, but it's something that's close enough to fool the item into thinking those were the right words. Isn't it reasonable that there would be some kind of item that would help you quickly figure out what a likely word is, such as a quick reference to what kind of wood a wand is made out of to pinpoint a particular sect or dialect? A quick guide to identify the kind of runes on a scroll to pinpoint the language it's written in? A guide to common staff materials and what spells tend to be associated with what substances?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 11:23 PM

But here's the thing - in 6 seconds and a successful check, the rogue comes up with something to activate it. Maybe it's not those exact words, but it's something that's close enough to fool the item into thinking those were the right words. Isn't it reasonable that there would be some kind of item that would help you quickly figure out what a likely word is, such as a quick reference to what kind of wood a wand is made out of to pinpoint a particular sect or dialect? A quick guide to identify the kind of runes on a scroll to pinpoint the language it's written in? A guide to common staff materials and what spells tend to be associated with what substances?

And you're going to consult this in six seconds, are you?

quick_comment

2009-06-23, 11:38 PM

And you're going to consult this in six seconds, are you?

Yup. Just like you can only a swing a sword once in those six seconds before you become superhuman.

This UMD masterwork tool could also be a special magic rock that you hit the item with, confusing it and making it easier to activate.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-23, 11:51 PM

I can swing a sword twice in six seconds. What shall my superhero name be?

quick_comment

2009-06-23, 11:57 PM

I can swing a sword twice in six seconds. What shall my superhero name be?

Well, that means you are at least 6th level in a full BAB class, or higher level in a non BAB class. level 5 is about the point things start to go superhuman.

chiasaur11

2009-06-24, 12:11 AM

I can swing a sword twice in six seconds. What shall my superhero name be?

The Human Airplane.

(Keeps your foes guessing!)

Worira

2009-06-24, 12:14 AM

Amphibious Lad.

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-24, 12:16 AM

No, really, books just don't work as 'Tools' to be used whilst doing something else, for me.

I like what I did with them, and it has characters saying things like "Halflings always stab at the 'nads!" when tumbling.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-24, 03:38 AM

The wizard with an INT of 20, who is more intelligent than the smartest human ever to live, is going to have a password of "Hocus Pocus", is he?
No, he's going to have something easy to remember, like the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. Remember how wizards are smartasses? So yeah, your "cheat sheet" is going to start out something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_field_equations) like (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodinger_equation) this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_sketch_for_G%C3%B6del%27s_first_incompletene ss_theorem), and that's not even considering the exact intonation and handwave motions required.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/9/9/09975790917992a361d45a1a877d7155.png.

MickJay

2009-06-24, 04:24 AM

I don't think so, those passwords still need to be short enough for the mage to activate the items almost instantly. Reciting half a page of arcane knowledge just to shoot a fireball (or whatever) from a scroll during combat would be a bit impractical.

On the other hand, if you yell "kazam"! (when you know it's actually "khazhaam", but others can't hear that, and thus can't repeat the word properly) is a good way to both preserve the "secret" word and be able to use the item quickly. Or maybe it's just "kazam", but you also need to wriggle your right toe and raise left half of your left eyebrow by a quarter of inch.

Eldariel

2009-06-24, 04:27 AM

Kurald Galain

2009-06-24, 04:30 AM

I don't think so, those passwords still need to be short enough for the mage to activate the items almost instantly.

Sure, but if the command word is the first word of

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/9/9/09975790917992a361d45a1a877d7155.png

then that's easy for a wizard, but your average melee guy with int as a dump stat won't even know how to begin to pronounce that :smallbiggrin:

"Eye squiggly thing above a line with another squiggly thing tee trident open parenthesis" is not going to cut it. Heck, if I were a wizard I'd make that cause the wand to explode in your face!

huttj509

2009-06-24, 04:44 AM

D*** you Quantum Mechanics! I ALMOST remember how to use you!

Jayabalard

2009-06-24, 06:24 AM

Consider: (A) practically every single technological product on Earth requiring an access code (more or less) has "0000" or "password" or "admin" as its default, (B) very few non-technical people change their passwords or change them more than "password" to "passw0rd", and (C) magic-users tend to be lazy.

A cheat sheet would have things like "Try 'password' in the language of the likely crafters" or "Try a simple string of numbers consisting of all the same number or a sequence of numbers" or something like that. It wouldn't be too hard to think up something like that--and if the UMD check failed, then obviously the last person to own the item was smarter than normal. :smallwink:A. This is generally because they need to be easily set by the technical people

B. I don't know anyone who uses a password that simple, even the non-technical people. MY wife, who's a K-8 music teacher has a reasonable length password with numbers letters and symbols, and I didn't even have to ask her to come up with that.

Ignoring that, wizards are the "Technical people" of the D&D universe; they know how important good security is. A wizard knows that the wand that he puts an easy password may be the one that gets turned against him.

c. Laziness is one of the virtues of a computer programmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall#Virtues_of_a_programmer) (sloth, impatience and hubris). Programmers, like most technical people, tend to have strong passwords. So this doesn't support the idea that wizards are going to use easy passwords at all.

quick_comment

2009-06-24, 07:13 AM

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 10:09 AM

These arent passwords. They are command words. Not only do most wizards not produce their own wands, but many wizards keep an eye on resale. Nobody is going to want a wand that requires a full minute to cast its cure light wounds spell.

Exactly. Wizards are making these things, but they're selling them to bards, UMD rogues, and other such riffraff.

@Kurald Galain: The problem with using a quantum-mechanical command phrase is that the spell will either target exactly where you want it (a few rounds too late) or exactly when you want it (blowing up in your face), but not both. :smallamused:

Kurald Galain

2009-06-24, 10:10 AM

many wizards keep an eye on resale.

Why on earth would they want to do that? A wizard who needs gold casts Major Creation (gold) :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu

2009-06-24, 01:24 PM

Signmaker

2009-06-24, 01:44 PM

Is it just me or did pages get flipped around? I could swear the quantum mechanics was on last page and the superheroes on this page...

That last statement is a testament to our collective nerdhood.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 01:45 PM

Just had a revelation. Notably that actually knowing the exact password etc for a magic item does absolutely nothing, as even if you've used the same one before, it doesn't actually work automatically. Due to this, I doubt the book would be on typical passwords etc.

Who say's it's not complex enough to need the tool every time? Just because you happen to know that the command word to your wand is "mxzrwxw'tzx%qqv" doesn't mean you can pronounce it right without help.

Of course, even if it were on something else, I doubt that it would give a bonus to UMD.

Well, the underlying rule here is that there are masterwork tools for each skill and every DM or player determines what form it takes exactly. This is just some humorous speculation as to how a tool could be a book, not trying to justify how a book could be a tool.

Yukitsu

2009-06-24, 01:48 PM

Who say's it's not complex enough to need the tool every time? Just because you happen to know that the command word to your wand is "mxzrwxw'tzx%qqv" doesn't mean you can pronounce it right without help.

Because if that were true, after using 49 of the 50 charges of cure minor wounds, the 50th should be a breeze by contrast.

Well, the underlying rule here is that there are masterwork tools for each skill and every DM or player determines what form it takes exactly.

That's not actually a rule as far as I can find. The rule only states that a tool that matches a skill can be mastercrafted, not that there is a tool for every skill.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 02:17 PM

Because if that were true, after using 49 of the 50 charges of cure minor wounds, the 50th should be a breeze by contrast.

Say "mxzrwxw'tzx%qqv" fifty times fast. Get back to me when you pronounce all 50 of them perfectly. :smallamused:

That's not actually a rule as far as I can find. The rule only states that a tool that matches a skill can be mastercrafted, not that there is a tool for every skill.

Check the SRD:

Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.
Looks like there's a tool for every skill to me.

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-24, 02:30 PM

Check the SRD:

Looks like there's a tool for every skill to me.If that's the case, why would anyone ever buy the Alchemist's Lab? Or a Disguise Kit? It's giving you the option of other skills, not guaranteeing them.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 02:41 PM

If that's the case, why would anyone ever buy the Alchemist's Lab? Or a Disguise Kit?

Your guess is as good as mine on the lab; why anyone would waste 500gp on a small bonus of a common type to a niche skill is beyond me. The disguise kit is exhausted after 10 uses, so it makes sense to have a separate entry, I suppose (though again, why 50gp only buys you 10 uses is beyond me).

It's giving you the option of other skills, not guaranteeing them.

If that entry is supposed to mean "If the DM wants to, he can introduce masterwork tools for other skills," it would say so. You don't add a price, weight, and description for something if you want people to make it up themselves, you tell them "make one up yourself."

Eurantien

2009-06-24, 03:01 PM

My monk post a couple weeks ago(since I don't want to type it out again). I'm considering making a 'Monks Suck' handbook and just linking that though, at this point.

This doesn't actually contain the main block of your post, but you spelt "exacerbate" wrong and after about the 4th time it really started to bug me.

Jayabalard

2009-06-24, 03:02 PM

Looks like there's a tool for every skill to me.I don't see how you're drawing that conclusion. Nothing in the text you've quoted says that there is a masterwork tool for every skill.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 03:06 PM

Looks like there's a tool for every skill to me.

Read your own quote.

Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

Yora

2009-06-24, 03:54 PM

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-24, 05:27 PM

Hi again,

- circumstance bonuses for all skills are assumed by the PHB, so in a fantasy game there should be no problem imagining mundane items to boost each skill. Covering hands in fine special (campaign-specific) metal that make conducting magical energy easier for UMD masterwork item +2 circumstance bonus is entirely fine imo.

- sorry Eldariel, I did not respond to your longer post again (back on page 22? - the thread moves too fast and changes topics with it) - but I think everything has been said already, and the best way now is for me to show how monks can do in playtesting.

- having said that, whereever I see either extreme exaggerations or rules mistakes, I'll do my best to correct them...:smallsmile:

Yes to the first point, no to the second. Turns out that most combat buffs work better on full-BAB classes,

...like divine power...?:smallamused:

or classes with Sneak Attack,

... like enlarge? (hide -4, DEX -2)... :smallsmile:

or classes with other abilities that the monk lacks.

Sure. And the monk, again, has abilities that other classes lack. Your point being?

The problem is that most monk abilities are easily duplicated by low-level buffs and do not stack.

Dimension door? Poison immunity? Disease immunity? Spell Resistance? Etheralness? Bonus feats? Highest number of attacks in the core game? Etc. Does not look like low-level buffs to me

Cast Haste on the fighter and he's happy; cast Haste on the monk and he's wondering what the point is of his fast movement ability.

Hm. I could have sworn haste provides other benefits as well apart from the enhancement bonus to speed. And it sure comes in handy to have said enhancement bonus for longer than the 1 rnd/lvl the spell or items provide.

Ditto for Feather Fall and slow fall.

What a representative example for the "failure" of the whole monk class!
I actually think the druid ability to resist nature's lure will matter much, much more rarely than the slow fall ability. Still, I'd hardly think it useless or making the whole druid class useless.:smallamused:

Even funnier, the monk's iconic ability (doing damage with his bare hands) is easily obsoleted by carrying around a cheap piece of metal to hit people with.

I wonder... which "cheap piece of metal" are you referring to?
At level 1, the monk does 1d6 damage, equal to a club (and more versatile than most weapons ,with a free TWF feat added on top)
At level 6, with improved natural attack feat, the monk's unarmed damage is already unsurpassed by any melee weapon.
After that, the monk's unarmed damage is definitely better than any cheap piece of metal...24d8 not being that rare per hit (and the monk can get up to 10 or so per round).

That's not relevant, unless your campaign contains a wand that randomly casts either Fang or Weapon whenever you use it.

Sometimes, it has nothing to do with the campaign, but rather what kind of group is playing around the monk. A druid and ranger could help him with their magic fang spells, but not the fighter's bow.

And that is not relevant either, unless random polymorphs are common in your campaign (and if they are, good luck playing a three-toed sloth). Generally, you get to pick your form (or the party wizard gets to pick, but he's smarter than you are).

I guess the polymorph/wildshape debate has shown that this point is a bit...let us say...more controversial than this :smallbiggrin:

Actually, full-BAB classes benefit more, as usual.

I wonder why? Leaving aside the divine power (or mage transformation) effects that you keep ignoring, any "to hit" bonus benefits the medium BAB classes more than the full BAB classes (who may not have trouble hitting their enemy, anyhow, but do less damage per hit).

Yes. As always, the most effective monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk, so obviously three monk levels plus five racial ones is better than eight monk levels. The best monk build around is still monk 1 / druid 19.

I am sure the WoTC optimisation boards and monk guides available there disagree with you on this one, in particular since you do not like polymorph buffs and thus will have a fairly meagre melee druid without wildshape.
And even with selective banning that allows wildshape, Monk 20 beats druid 19/monk1 hands down (literally! :smallcool:) in melee combat (core and non-core).
Better choose monk prestige classes or stack (if the DM allows it) monk and swordsage. Or monk and psychic warrior.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 05:43 PM

So you are going to join Tidesinger's proposed 4 man dungeoncrawl?

Hm. I think I'll be a wizard.

Tiki Snakes

2009-06-24, 05:55 PM

But let me ask you this, if a "magical hacking" book did exist, what benefit would it grant a character in your opinion, since you have an issue with the +2 skill bonus?

Oh, I have no problem with the Balance issue of a +2 skill bonus, it's really the fluffy side of the issue that rankles me, personally. *shrug*

It just seems to make sense that for a skill to be aided by masterwork tools, there must be some kind of (preferably required) tools for normally performing the task. A Masterwork tool should be a better example of an existing, mundane and pretty necessary item for the task. Like lockpicks for lockpicking, or the bard's Violin for his musical perform check, or so on.

I have no innate problem with gaining bonuses to UMD, such as by the idea Giacomo posted, with his gloves-of-energy-manipulation, (Certainly better than dubious book concepts, funny as the halflings 'usual target' thing is) but it still feels like more of a 'wondrous item' or even flat out magical gear, rather than a really well made tool.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 05:59 PM

Read your own quote.

Okay.

Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

"(if any)" means there doesn't have to be an associated skill. However, it doesn't say "X skill," it doesn't say "a skill from this list," it says "a related skill."

It's a tool, and it has a related skill. That's all; no restrictions on what it applies to, no rules on not being applicable to specific skills. What in there says that the masterwork tool cannot be used for a given skill?

I have no innate problem with gaining bonuses to UMD, such as by the idea Giacomo posted, with his gloves-of-energy-manipulation, (Certainly better than dubious book concepts, funny as the halflings 'usual target' thing is) but it still feels like more of a 'wondrous item' or even flat out magical gear, rather than a really well made tool.

But again, it's all flavor! Would you object to a masterwork Open Lock tool being a mechanical glove that clamps into place and holds the lock so you can use both hands on the picks? How about a masterwork Swim tool being a set of water wings? This whole thing started as a joke; whether it's a book, a wand, a set of gloves, or whatever, you're still getting that +2 bonus, and that's all that matters

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:03 PM

It's a tool, and it has a related skill. That's all; no restrictions on what it applies to, no rules on not being applicable to specific skills. What in there says that the masterwork tool cannot be used for a given skill?

So what is it?

Flickerdart

2009-06-24, 06:07 PM

Ok, this is hair-splitting. You want a masterwork UMD tool? Really?

Codpiece. Of the "Black Russian" variety, for those familiar with Black Adder. It sends a certain message to the device. A message that it better work, or it will find itself employed in a use more insidious than its dark creators ever thought possible. Magical devices can be very receptive to this sort of thing, you will find.

There. The Giamonk sucks even with that +2.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-24, 06:08 PM

What in there says that the masterwork tool cannot be used for a given skill?
The fact that the skill doesn't normally use or require tools.

This whole thing started as a joke; whether it's a book, a wand, a set of gloves, or whatever, you're still getting that +2 bonus, and that's all that matters
Only if you're purely into the mechanics and don't care about verisimilitude, yes.

Also, there's the point that certain skills are much stronger than other skills - for instance, Diplomacy and UMD. That is a very good reason why a +2 item for those should not be easily accessible. Of course, the sensible way to get an UMD bonus is to take a class that has it on its class list, such as Expert. This, incidentally, is why the Expert NPC class is a stronger class than the monk.

Tiki Snakes

2009-06-24, 06:10 PM

I wonder... which "cheap piece of metal" are you referring to?
At level 1, the monk does 1d6 damage, equal to a club (and more versatile than most weapons ,with a free TWF feat added on top)
At level 6, with improved natural attack feat, the monk's unarmed damage is already unsurpassed by any melee weapon.
After that, the monk's unarmed damage is definitely better than any cheap piece of metal...24d8 not being that rare per hit (and the monk can get up to 10 or so per round).

But at level 6, a monk's 'normal' damage is just 1d8? With the (Rather tasty monster manual feat) Improved Natural Attack, that DOES increase to a very respectable 2d6, as if increasing a size catagory. To equal the greatsword on 2d6, not outpacing.
If you count enlarging as well, sure, 3d6 is better than a normal sized greatsword, but not better than a monkey-gripped large greatsword, or an otherwise enlarged weapon?

Admittedly, I'm hazy on size increasing shenanigans and can never quite remember which way monkey grip works, but still. A Fighter can be doing 2d6 quite dandy, which is the best a lvl6 Monk should be getting that I can see, without ALSO being buffed.

-----------------

Okay.

"(if any)" means there doesn't have to be an associated skill. However, it doesn't say "X skill," it doesn't say "a skill from this list," it says "a related skill."

It's a tool, and it has a related skill. That's all; no restrictions on what it applies to, no rules on not being applicable to specific skills. What in there says that the masterwork tool cannot be used for a given skill?

But again, it's all flavor! Would you object to a masterwork Open Lock tool being a mechanical glove that clamps into place and holds the lock so you can use both hands on the picks? How about a masterwork Swim tool being a set of water wings? This whole thing started as a joke; whether it's a book, a wand, a set of gloves, or whatever, you're still getting that +2 bonus, and that's all that matters

Clockwork robot-glove gets the thumbs up. Inflatable Water-Wings a thumbs up in a comedy-campaign, possibly only if the PC has no ranks in (Read, hasn't yet learned how to) Swim.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:15 PM

Ok, this is hair-splitting. You want a masterwork UMD tool? Really?

Codpiece. Of the "Black Russian" variety
Wrong tool, that's the masterwork implement for Intimidate.

Yukitsu

2009-06-24, 06:17 PM

- circumstance bonuses for all skills are assumed by the PHB:

As has been pointed out, no such passage as yet has been found. Could you please provide a citation, in case we're simply missing the quote?

so in a fantasy game there should be no problem imagining mundane items to boost each skill. Covering hands in fine special (campaign-specific) metal that make conducting magical energy easier for UMD masterwork item +2 circumstance bonus is entirely fine imo.

Exotic materials are generally priced at a greater quantity than 50GP per item. As well, no matter how well it attunes you to the magic in an item, helping you decipher scrolls for instance does not seem to relate to this material. Lastly, no one here is particularly interested in remaining in the purview of core, yet asceding to the validity of campaign specific custom materials.

...like divine power...?:smallamused:

Most doesn't mean all. There are, IMO 2 spells in all of core that benefit classes with low BAB more than those with high BAB.

... like enlarge? (hide -4, DEX -2)... :smallsmile:

See above.

Sure. And the monk, again, has abilities that other classes lack. Your point being?

Few of those are abilities that cannot be attained, and the few that are not attainable to other classes are not particularly worth getting to most classes. The inverse is not true of abilities that monks lack, such as actual spell casting.

Dimension door? Poison immunity? Disease immunity? Spell Resistance?

In core, these are all provided in the same quantities as inexpensive items, the last being an excemption on inexpensive, but also lacking in utility, as few dedicated casters will fail to bypass the spell resistance that they get as a class feature, or the amount from items. The central two lack relevance in the moderate to higher levels due to the persistant low DC of those concerns. The first is only a trick with which to run away, an ability which no one has asserted the monk is particularly bad at, and which can be emulated again, by items. And before you mention reliance on items, I didn't say it's a good idea to emulate these abilities, as they aren't strictly speaking useful, but rather, they can emulate these abilities if they should so desire.

Etheralness?

Constant at level 9 assuming the party has a wizard.

Bonus feats?

The ultimate effect of those feats is often attainable (and more) via polymorph. A bonus to grapple, as well as automatic grapple checks on attacks, for instance, is comparable to improved grapple. The exception is stunning fist, which most have argued is ineffective.

Highest number of attacks in the core game?

This is only true if you use a two weapon fighting monk, which while certainly allowed in core, is often not worth the penalties incurred. If this route isn't pursued, a two weapon fighting rogue has 1 more attack, and a two weapon fighting full BAB character has 2 more. I would argue that the actual damage dealt, however, is far more relevant than how many attacks.

Etc. Does not look like low-level buffs to me

Hm. I could have sworn haste provides other benefits as well apart from the enhancement bonus to speed. And it sure comes in handy to have said enhancement bonus for longer than the 1 rnd/lvl the spell or items provide.

Depends on the encounter. It's rarely necessary to have any buff active for longer than about 5 rounds, which is in my experience the length of a combat. As well, the other benefits of haste are generally better spent on an individual who has a higher hit/damage per swing ratio than the monk.

What a representative example for the "failure" of the whole monk class!
I actually think the druid ability to resist nature's lure will matter much, much more rarely than the slow fall ability. Still, I'd hardly think it useless or making the whole druid class useless.:smallamused:

His point was that there are typical party oriented fixes that are commonly taken in core to render those abilities useless. Resist natures lure isn't often emulated by spells, as rarely as it comes up.

I wonder... which "cheap piece of metal" are you referring to?
At level 1, the monk does 1d6 damage, equal to a club (and more versatile than most weapons ,with a free TWF feat added on top)

To be compared to a two handed sword wielded in two hands, which is affordable by this level.

At level 6, with improved natural attack feat, the monk's unarmed damage is already unsurpassed by any melee weapon.

By my recollection, a +1 greatsword is affordable at this point in time, while a monks amulet of mighty fists is not. It's also surpassed in accuracy (weapon consideration alone) by a master crafted greatsword. Assuming you used the same race and are using the elite array as a human, the other warriors should have +2 damage (assuming my assumption about amulet of mighty fists vs. +1 weapons is correct) more than the monk, equivalent to a 2d6 weapon compared to a 2d8 weapon. Weapon specialization, commonly taken by core only fighters puts them up to 2d10 equivalence, and the higher BAB mixed with power attack brings it to equivalent to 4d6, at fairly low levels. (Level 3, in fact)

After that, the monk's unarmed damage is definitely better than any cheap piece of metal...24d8 not being that rare per hit (and the monk can get up to 10 or so per round).

Can you provide the means of getting 24d8 in core, discluding a rare crit? In addition, this does not compensate for the half strength and full benefit of power attack granted to the individual using a great sword.

Sometimes, it has nothing to do with the campaign, but rather what kind of group is playing around the monk. A druid and ranger could help him with their magic fang spells, but not the fighter's bow.

Typically, a party with a druid and ranger won't want a fighter (or the ranger, one or the other) because that fills the fighty role twice. Especially if there was also a monk. An arcanist is typically considered indespensible, and they universally have access to greater magic weapon, sans specialization, or simply not wanting to take it (which can equally be levelled against a ranger or druid that refuses to cast greater magic fang on the monk.)

I guess the polymorph/wildshape debate has shown that this point is a bit...let us say...more controversial than this :smallbiggrin:

I'd disagree with this. There is no reason to assume that a caster will choose an improper form for the situation.

I wonder why? Leaving aside the divine power (or mage transformation) effects that you keep ignoring, any "to hit" bonus benefits the medium BAB classes more than the full BAB classes (who may not have trouble hitting their enemy, anyhow, but do less damage per hit).

Actually, in a wizards of the coast board, it was demonstrated that any increase to hit for a monk compared to a fighter improved the fighters damage on a given target by more, simply because the fighter would convert that 5% to hit into 2 points of damage. Since he was hitting the target on a two for his first attack, the loss in to hit had only a small effect on his damage, reducing the per swing damage of some of his iteratives, but drastically increasing his total damage.

I am sure the WoTC optimisation boards and monk guides available there disagree with you on this one, in particular since you do not like polymorph buffs and thus will have a fairly meagre melee druid without wildshape.

This isn't the case as far as I'm aware. In any of the given tests of comparative class differences, venomfire druids (Who abused animal growth and venomfire, not wildshape) were one of the most consistantly effective builds there, while monk was generally considered too weak to use (these ran from 1-12.) I'll note that my own contribution, an abjurer, was one of the only ones to go through without needing to expend any money on magic items. :smallamused:

As well, there is a fairly current thread in which a monk advocate is trying to beat typical core beatstick melee damage. Thusfar, he has not succeeded, though he has gotten into the realm of relevant damage. (Though he assumes that a +20 some trip is sufficient to automatically trip the target dumby)

And even with selective banning that allows wildshape, Monk 20 beats druid 19/monk1 hands down (literally! :smallcool:) in melee combat (core and non-core).

This is one of those actual vs. challenges. I'll build a druid 19/monk, and we'll see if this is the case or not.

Better choose monk prestige classes or stack (if the DM allows it) monk and swordsage. Or monk and psychic warrior.

- Giacomo

Those aren't core.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:28 PM

And even with selective banning that allows wildshape, Monk 20 beats druid 19/monk1 hands down (literally! :smallsmile:) in melee combat (core and non-core).

Shapechange. Venomfire. Fleshraker. Fleshraker Animal Companion.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:34 PM

Seriously, if you want to prove that statement, I suggest you join in Tidesinger's special limited time offer 4 man party dungeoncrawl with me, mostlyharmful, and Stoopidtallkid.

Yukitsu

2009-06-24, 06:35 PM

Aren't you already the druid though?

If you are, I could make a wizard. I prefer them over druids.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:36 PM

I'm the *wizard*

Yukitsu

2009-06-24, 06:37 PM

Sure, I'll build up a druid tonight then and toss it in the ring. Can you link to his post for rules, or is that in with the test of might somewhere?

Doc Roc

2009-06-24, 06:39 PM

It has been agreed to by the relevant parties. ToS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6219940#post6219940) : Direct dungeon crawl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095) is now available.

Giacomo and Pharaoh have two of the four slots already, and I believe stupidtall has another.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:42 PM

So I take it that it's time to duel?

Doc Roc

2009-06-24, 06:45 PM

Oh.... you might be surprised.. :: snickers malevolently ::

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-24, 06:52 PM

Heh, if Yukitsu joins, we'd have a Druid/Druid/Monk/Wizard party.

Signmaker

2009-06-24, 07:26 PM

Heh, if Yukitsu joins, we'd have a Druid/Druid/Monk/Wizard party.

Huh. Due to the number of casters (and possibly buffs), I don't know whether that situation will help the monk or hinder it, relatively (and I mean relatively). Too bad there isn't a psion in the mix as well.

PairO'Dice Lost

2009-06-24, 08:46 PM

The fact that the skill doesn't normally use or require tools.

Just because I can jump or swim or climb or focus myself or scare people without the aid of anything in particular doesn't mean I can't do so better with some material aid.

Only if you're purely into the mechanics and don't care about verisimilitude, yes.

Not at all true; if things being mechanically the same required that the flavor had to be the same, every barbarian would be a Conan ripoff, every fighter would be a mercenary, and every cleric would worship the same god. Just as you can take the fighter mechanics and make a mercenary, a war veteran, a tribal warrior, a tavern bouncer, or almost any other martial concept, so too can you take the concept of "circumstance bonus to skills" and gain that bonus in whatever method best fits your character.

Also, there's the point that certain skills are much stronger than other skills - for instance, Diplomacy and UMD. That is a very good reason why a +2 item for those should not be easily accessible. Of course, the sensible way to get an UMD bonus is to take a class that has it on its class list, such as Expert. This, incidentally, is why the Expert NPC class is a stronger class than the monk.

I don't disagree that Expert > Monk, but I do disagree that different skills should have different costs to achieve bonuses. Skill Focus is one feat with no prerequisites, no matter what skill you choose. Spells which give bonuses to skill checks do not discriminate as to which skills gain a bonus. You can buy any class skill at the same rate and cost as any other class skill, and likewise for cross-class skills. The notion that different tools should cost different amounts (such as the blatantly overpriced 500gp masterwork alchemy lab versus the 2gp masterwork appraise scales) only holds weight if all effects treat skills differently...which, obviously, they don't.

Jayabalard

2009-06-24, 10:12 PM

What in there says that the masterwork tool cannot be used for a given skill?It's right next to the rules that say the masterwork tool cannot be used to instantly slay any monster that you can see as a free action. It comes right before the rules that say that you cannot gain a level every time you roll a d6.

Worira

2009-06-24, 11:04 PM

You know what my favourite masterwork tool is? The one for Sense Motive.

quick_comment

2009-06-24, 11:18 PM

You know what my favourite masterwork tool is? The one for Sense Motive.

30ft mood pendant! It turns colors and is supposed to indicate the mood of the person you are sensing.

I think masterwork gather information makes the least sense. Is it a bag of coins?

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-24, 11:19 PM

You know what my favourite masterwork tool is? The one for Sense Motive.

My favorite Masterwork Tool? The one for Decipher Script. It helps you decipher a language, but is written in the language you're deciphering.

Xenogears

2009-06-24, 11:23 PM

You know what my favourite masterwork tool is? The one for Sense Motive.

A device that enhances your hearing slightly to allow you to detect subtle variations in tone to indicate lying?

Decipher Script=Rosetta Stone
Gather Info=.....beer?

Worira

2009-06-25, 12:05 AM

Which is why Listen gives a synergy bonus to Sense Motive.

Oh, wait.

OracleofWuffing

2009-06-25, 12:14 AM

A device that enhances your hearing slightly to allow you to detect subtle variations in tone to indicate lying?
Don't forget, the tool doesn't work if the person is communicating to you via sign language, and it doesn't help you detect disguises.

One of those bracelets Apollo Justice has, on the other hand, might work.
Assuming you handwave that whole herediterial bloodrush when other people are nervous thing, and assuming you even have a DM that doesn't throw a brick at you if you ever say, "I want my character to do something from that lawyer game!"

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-25, 12:16 AM

Don't forget, the tool doesn't work if the person is communicating to you via sign language, and it doesn't help you detect disguises.

Disguises are opposed by spot checks anyway for no apparent reason.

OracleofWuffing

2009-06-25, 12:50 AM

Disguises are opposed by spot checks anyway for no apparent reason.
Wait, wait... I need to process this a second. 'Cause it is absolutely true.

You see, I was confused because Sense Motive says you get a hunch something's up if you're talking to an Imposter. This means that if you run into an undisguised imposter, you just go to Sense Motive versus Bluff.

But if you're against a disguised imposter, you go to Spot versus Disguise, and if you succeed the Spot, you'll probably have a lower Sense Motive DC to beat- but you don't necessarily auto-win the Sense Motive check, at best you'll have a lower DC to beat.
Fail Spot + Fail Sense Motive = You know the guy you're talking to is real and he's telling the truth.
Succeed Spot + Fail Sense Motive = You know the guy is disguised but he is telling the truth.
Fail Spot + Succeed Sense Motive = You know the guy is real but he is lying.
Succeed Spot + Succeed Sense Motive = You know the guy is fake and is lying.

Why is all of this important? :smallsigh: Monk is one of the few core classes that has both Spot and Sense Motive as class skills! Granted, the other one is Rogue, and nobody's out-skillpointing the Rogue anytime soon, and Rogue has Disguise and Bluff so he can also play the other end of this stick, but, uh, hey, we almost went full circle... Again.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-25, 01:45 AM

You can even put an enchantment on it, that increases the bonus. Competence bounus on skills is (bonus^2)*100 gp, which is really cheap.
And masterwork tools give a circumstance bonus, so it stacks completely.

It also works for thieves tools (which is a bit more expensive, since you use it for two skills), and bard instruments! +5 on performance for 1,000 gp.

Of course, there's no tool for Listen or Tumble checks.
The skills for which tools make sense are Appraise, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Heal, Open Lock and Perform.

Though a military saddle is kind of a masterwork tool for the ride skill. ^^

Actually, there are tools for Listen and Tumble checks. The listening cone or horn (I think it's in Complete Scoundrel, but don't quote me on that) allows you a bonus to listen at doors. And somewhere, I could have sworn I saw some kind of tumbler's or acrobat's outfit that (somehow) adds +2 to Tumble checks. Not saying I agree with it, not sure how one can make a suit that lets you avoid AoO's, take less damage from falls, or make more money by performing flips and handstands...but there you go.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 02:31 AM

Why is all of this important? :smallsigh: Monk is one of the few core classes that has both Spot and Sense Motive as class skills!

Not enough skill points.

mostlyharmful

2009-06-25, 02:42 AM

I'm fine to do up a beatstick if it's still needed. Plus with the rules discussion in this thread are we still locked to core?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 02:52 AM

I think it's core.

T.G. Oskar

2009-06-25, 03:09 AM

Actually, there are tools for Listen and Tumble checks. The listening cone or horn (I think it's in Complete Scoundrel, but don't quote me on that) allows you a bonus to listen at doors. And somewhere, I could have sworn I saw some kind of tumbler's or acrobat's outfit that (somehow) adds +2 to Tumble checks. Not saying I agree with it, not sure how one can make a suit that lets you avoid AoO's, take less damage from falls, or make more money by performing flips and handstands...but there you go.

More like being less restrictive, actually. That would be akin to wearing a really, really, really skin-tight outfit, so that you have a better chance to pull off those nifty acrobatic moves. At least, it's a bit less restrictive, or as less restrictive as it is having light armor around.

I still get amazed at how a topic can get so derailed, so quickly. I'd like to see a bit more of love for the Monk. Not get it replaced by a discussion about masterwork tools granting +2 to skill checks...

Though, I do find odd that the Ki Blast for monks requires a +6 BAB, if I recall correctly. Fiery Fist aids a bit on the Monk's damage output, something they really, really need. At least against undead, to which they get loads of penalties.

But aside from that, experiencing Monk for the first time, I've seen that they can do well on a few things with a bit less of optimizing than thought. Then again, playing a Githzerai helps a lot (oddly enough, even a non-psionic Githzerai from core!) I'm of those that feel the Monk was a bizarre attempt to mix Fighter and Rogue (or Fighting Man and Thief, for all you 1E buffs). Somehow, when you analyze it, it's basically a character that's supposed to behave like a Fighter, but also have abilities as a Rogue-ish character, and then having abilities of its own. Including the baggage of abilities it dragged from earlier (quivering palm, the odd BAB progression/flurry of blows, stunning attack, AC bonus from Wisdom, and so on), the Monk was apparently designed to fight as well as a Fighter, and have stealth and mobility skills as a Rogue. Though, they failed miserably (but not something that can't be rescued)

I find funny that 4th Edition makes Monks a psionic-flavored class, and that Monks really gain benefits from multiclassing with Psychic Warrior or taking the Psionic Fist (of Zuoken) prestige class. Psionics really work in conjunction with a Monk.

Teron

2009-06-25, 03:47 AM

OracleofWuffing

2009-06-25, 04:04 AM

Not enough skill points.
Oh, I'm not saying it's a viable monk build- I gave up on those a long time ago. I just enjoy seeing one random statement on an N-page long topic somehow remotely circling back to the big topic. And then I enjoy dreading being the one to point it out.

tenshiakodo

2009-06-25, 06:00 AM

Well Monk love is a hard thing to find. Yeah, there's something wrong with Ki blast, but really, it's not worth the points. Fiery Fists, on the other hand, are; as many people have pointed out, it's often unreliable to attempt to stun foes, but elemental damage is much better.

Sure, people will argue "it's fire, and that's the most common type of damage monsters are resistant/immune to", but it's also the most common type of damage monsters are vulnerable to.

'sides, who doesn't want to be able to light a cigar with their fist? Oh yeah. ^_~

Monks can do some amazing things (like start 30+ page posts by their very existence), but more so than other classes, one must take the game and their gaming group into account.

Gritty games that require efficiency (or players who are more concerned about efficiency) will be hard on the Monk. Because the Monk isn't efficient; he has too many neat abilities that do very different things.

One thing I've always been amazed at are how many people who point out that the Monk's movement speed is at odds with his Flurry of Blows.

"His big trick is to make lots of attacks, so his speed is meaningless."

Go start a thread about how to make a Scout's Skirmish more effective, and you'll get five ways to make a full attack at the end of a charge for your Scout so fast your head will spin.

See what they don't get is, there's nothing wrong with being versatile. Campaigns are going to require very different things of a character. People who play with big spiky chains or run around leap attacking things for five zillion damage are very cool, but very little is said of what happens when their tactics don't work.

Now most of this is the way the system was built; specialization reaps great rewards, but being a versatile character often means you're mediocre at multiple things simultaneously.

We all know this, we've seen it in games. The Rogue is amazing when he can launch multiple sneak attacks, and just a walking skill check when he can't.

But by this point, so many options exist in RAW to trick out different classes (including, yes, the Monk) that it's not hard to find something unique to do.

Replace slow fall with the ability to run up walls, for example. That's a neat stunt.

Toss away your "flurry of misses" for a single attack with a damage multiplier.

Be a Halfing and get some Skirmish.

Select a fighting style and get damage reduction.

Heck I even saw a Dragon Magazine that gave Monks RAGE instead of Flurry!

Oh yeah. : )

At this point, you select the strengths and weaknesses you want your character to have. Find the ones that sound cool, then ask yourself "what can I really do with this?".

If you're creative enough, I'm sure you'll find ways to suprise yourself (and everyone else).

It's not about making a Wizard or Druid effective; anybody can do that, it's not even a challenge at this point. You can give up Wild Shape for Rage on your Druid, throw away the animal companion for the "amazing" ability to sacrifice spells for fast healing, and STILL probably be the biggest ball breaker in the campaign.

This is about really challenging yourself to make a cool and interesting character, which yes, can be effective.

But remember, it's not about just you. Ask your DM and your fellow players what they think about your plans. See if they think it's viable, heck, maybe they'll come up with ways to help your concept; good players can do that.

I mean, a lot of people throw around the title "Batman Wizard" like he's some kind of horrible powergaming monster, but read the guide.

Batman is all about making his friends cooler at what they do. He doesn't need to single-handedly pwn each opponent to stroke his ego. He knows what he's done, and that's enough for him. He's cool like that.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-25, 06:56 AM

Well Monk love is a hard thing to find.

That's because they have a vow of chastity in all those monk monasteries :smallbiggrin:

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 07:31 AM

Go start a thread about how to make a Scout's Skirmish more effective, and you'll get five ways to make a full attack at the end of a charge for your Scout so fast your head will spin.
The scout can deal decent damage with skirmish. How's the monk doing?

See what they don't get is, there's nothing wrong with being versatile.
But the trick is to be very versatile and not suck at it.

waterpenguin43

2009-06-25, 09:24 AM

I would personnally recomend that monk players take preestige classes or multiclass to something that can cast spells.
On the plus side, monks make great scouts:smallbiggrin: they have good saves and can release a flurry then run back and warn the others(they have a really good foot speed).

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 09:32 AM

Eldariel

2009-06-25, 09:34 AM

Another monk issue is that the abilities they get don't have much synergy.
On the plus side, monks make great scouts:smallbiggrin: actually the do cause of slow fall(or it's variant), leap of the clouds and flurry of blows, plus they can use a thousand faces.

I thought we'd been through this all a hundred times (not that you'd expect anyone to actually read one of these threads...).

I'd like to point out though that A Thousand Faces isn't a Monk class feature. Ironically, it's Druid's. It'd be awesome if Druids didn't already get Wildshape... Slow Fall, I don't see how that helps scouting (or anything else); only works next to a wall, inferior to friggin' Feather Fall and needs you to drop huge distances for whatever reason... Next to a wall, remember? Oh, and it's completely obsoleted by flight.

Leap of the Clouds doesn't exist in 3.5, so I have a hard time figuring out what you're talking about. Maybe some homebrew Monk, or Leap of the Heavens-feat? Anyways, I don't see what those have to do with Monk...and it'd be obsoleted by flight anyways.

But yeah, Monk would make a fine scout if he had Trapfinding. As he doesn't, going far ahead alone is like to just get him killed, while alarming every creature in the whole friggin' area/dungeon by stepping on every trap ever wired.

Killer Angel

2009-06-25, 09:42 AM

But yeah, Monk would make a fine scout if he had Trapfinding.

But Monk IS a good trapfinder.
He walks through the trapped zone, with good chance to survive thanks to his high saves.
A lot of good sides: you don't waste precious Summon spells and, if the monk finally die, maybe the next character will be an unarmed swordsage. :smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful

2009-06-25, 09:45 AM

Arakune

2009-06-25, 09:47 AM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 09:50 AM

But Monk IS a good trapfinder.
He walks through the trapped zone, with good chance to survive thanks to his high saves.
A lot of good sides: you don't waste precious Summon spells and, if the monk finally die, maybe the next character will be an unarmed swordsage. :smallbiggrin:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n7/n39527.jpg

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-25, 10:01 AM

I'm amazed at how often 'look, I can just set them all off and be fine' is given as an ok trapfinding alternative.... what about the alarm traps that set all the monsters on you, what about the deadfall traps that seal up part of the dungeon, what about the traps that destroy all the precious shinies :smallannoyed:......

Because a resetting trap of Split Ray Disintegrate is so much more efficient than any of those.

But really, a deadfall trap is a ridiculously bad idea from a dungeon design perspective. A random guy wanders in and all of the sudden you're trapped inside your own home. No. You do not want this to happen.

An alarm trap is good, but a string tied to a bell tied to the front door does the same thing without costing the kind of money magic traps do. And a trap that destroys all the shinies also means it's a trap which destroys all your equipment. No. You do not want this to happen.

Thats why no one ever worries about those traps. Because no one ever makes those traps.

Doc Roc

2009-06-25, 10:15 AM

You are wrong. I routinely make them, because you know what magic can do?

Magic can make a resetting deadfall trap. Resets itself on a command word that the PCs just don't know.

Like say... "Limp Pickle" in celestial.

I'm also famous for my triggers tied to traps behind the party's current location.

Like fuel air bombs.
I suggest that you bring freaking disable device or trap finding or expect to die in the test of spite.
A bag of tricks will help, but you better be cunning about it.

mostlyharmful

2009-06-25, 10:19 AM

Because a resetting trap of Split Ray Disintegrate is so much more efficient than any of those.

But really, a deadfall trap is a ridiculously bad idea from a dungeon design perspective. A random guy wanders in and all of the sudden you're trapped inside your own home. No. You do not want this to happen.

An alarm trap is good, but a string tied to a bell tied to the front door does the same thing without costing the kind of money magic traps do. And a trap that destroys all the shinies also means it's a trap which destroys all your equipment. No. You do not want this to happen.

Thats why no one ever worries about those traps. Because no one ever makes those traps.

Efficient is a matter of what you set out to do and how much you're prepared to invest in it. If I was an NPC and I wanted to stop adventurers that are kicking down my door the idea of hireing a high level mage to come to my house and set up one single all or nothing trap at vast expense isn't the first plan that comes to mind. Note please, the idea is to stop them NOT to kill them, one is sooooo much easier than the other.

I'd love to run you through a Kobold hive sometime. They make all of them and for good reason, each of them are simple, cheap, fast and makable by experts suppervising commoners. Somewhat different to a resetting split Ray Disintegrate. They are available from really really early in the game and if used maliciously intelligently can stay vitally important into high levels.

Deadfalls are brilliant if you don't care about that part of the dungeon, if what you want is to defend yourself against much larger stronger enemies that can't handle being buried in thirty million tonnes of earth and smothered then deadfalls rock. Take the quintissential kobold warren, first you decide what is essential in your warren then you surround that with some decent structurally sound non-tunnelled rock then beyound that you have a dozen twisty deadfall lined tunnells that are larger than your guys need that you don't mind losing (and even losing a few people to them since they're cheap). viola, useful. No-ones going to rig a dead fall in the heart of the archmages study/library because that's stupid, they are going to in abandoned mine workings because why not? Just be sure to have fourty other tunnels in and out, not hard with a big workforce.

Traps don't have to be magical, a bell tied to the back of the door IS an alarm trap, having it connect up to a large bell in another part of the dungeon is just extra.

Traps that destroy treasure may be really really annoying for players but there's plenty of reasons for the builders to make it so. They're the one's with an understanding of the trap and how to use it so it doesn't go off when they retrieve stuff. Stick highly dangerous stuff in it and there's a clear reason to have it blow up rather than fall into the hands of wandering loonies.

It seems no-one you've run into in a game makes those traps, that's very different from no-one ever makes them. There's reasons and situations for all of them and lots more, traps reward ingenuity after all. If your DM doesn't have any traps beyound damaging ones that you can just walk through with a high enough save then it's not even vaguely scratching the surface of what a devious mind can do.

Mechanical alarms and denial tactics are cheap, easy and can be set up so they don't bother your own force. Why don't they use them?:smallconfused:

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 11:59 AM

Thats why no one ever worries about those traps. Because no one ever makes those traps.

Tomb. Of. Horrors.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-25, 12:08 PM

Tomb. Of. Horrors.

Suppose you had a party containing only monks. Any number of monks. How many of these do you think will be needed in order to get one to the Crown of Acererak?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 12:10 PM

All of them.

Fawsto

2009-06-25, 12:18 PM

About the same number enought to make a DM cry in terror of having to DM to such a lame party! Mostly, it means a solo adventure for a Monk.

Wait, the Monk will never accomplish it... My bad.

Geez! Why are we still talking about this? C'mon, the month is almost over! This thread must die before a new one arises by 07/01!

Doc Roc

2009-06-25, 12:35 PM

Suppose you had a party containing only monks. Any number of monks. How many of these do you think will be needed in order to get one to the Crown of Acererak?

Monks lack disable device AND search AND knowledge planes, and as a result will probably limit to NI for finishing the tomb of horrors. Now, if you were to let me build said monks, expressly for the tomb of horrors, I could probably get by with around 6-8. If these are so-called "Real Monks" then it's undoable. The tomb resets too quickly, in too many ways, and too much of it is expressly targeted at non-wizardy parties.

Keld Denar

2009-06-25, 12:36 PM

Suppose you had a party containing only monks. Any number of monks. How many of these do you think will be needed in order to get one to the Crown of Acererak?

Ever play the old nintendo game called "Lemmings"?

Pit traps wouldn't be an issue, since eventually all the monks that would come after would walk over the fallen bodies of all the monks before.

Also, I'm reminded of something from Another Gaming Comic...lemme see if I can dig up the link..

FOUND IT! (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=357)

ZeroNumerous

2009-06-25, 01:59 PM

Mechanical alarms and denial tactics are cheap, easy and can be set up so they don't bother your own force. Why don't they use them?:smallconfused:

You underestimate the ingenious of a simple resetting Split-Ray Disintegrate trap. Say you have a ten-foot wide, 70 foot long corridor. You set your trap to trigger as soon as the door's opened and reset if the door is closed or something enters without speaking a specific command phrase. The trap is then set to go off at any creature in the area every round thereafter if that specific command phrase isn't spoken at least once per round. Then you have certain random squares set to automatically trigger the trap anyway, command word or no. Eventually, regardless of what the PCs do other than avoiding the corridor entirely, they will get shot and very easily die.

Again, because there's no reason to. You say deadfalls are effective to deter invaders, but they also work in reverse as you are now trapped inside your own dungeon. If you deadfall the exit to part of the area you don't care about, why even have that area to begin with? It's wasted space and will do nothing to deter even the most basic anti-trap preparation of the wonderful Summon Elemental reserve feat. If you have forty other tunnels going in and out, then why wouldn't the invader use them as well? Either through a scouting Earth Elemental or through simply using your own tunnels against you, your deadfall trap is rendered worthless and inefficient.

Stopping a party of adventurers whilst retaining efficiency and usefulness of your defended area is a pipe dream at best and an outright impossibility at worst. Even kobolds don't collapse their entire mine to defend their treasure, because they're not INT --. Further, anyone who has treasure worth defending isn't going to destroy that treasure unless it was a threat to them. In which case the treasure would already be destroyed because there's no reason to keep it around. A treasure destroying trap sounds like the work of someone who puts items in barrels or at the bottom of a death filled labyrinth.

Any wizard with Summon Elemental who acts according to his massive intelligence score won't have trouble with mundane traps. Magical traps would be a little harder to bypass, but are also an inevitability. Making mundane traps are centered around harming/stopping non-PCs. In the face of player characters, it's just a waste of time unless you prefer the Tomb of Horrors method of "you just die".

Finally, you don't use them because they're just as easily bypassed using the same methods that don't inconvenience your own.

Tomb. Of. Horrors.

I suppose you've forgotten that there's nothing actually at the bottom, and thus there's no reason for Astrarok to not fiill the Tomb with however many death traps and varying variety of death traps for no reason other than to kill adventurers. When I say no one uses them, I mean no one uses them if they have something to defend. Naturally if there's nothing to defend then why not have the entire complex collapse in on itself then reset itself?

Magic can make a resetting deadfall trap. Resets itself on a command word that the PCs just don't know.

Yes, and that's all of how useful again? Unlike the defender, the PCs have time to sit and wait for someone to come to them. They also have magic to force command words out of people.

I suggest that you bring freaking disable device or trap finding or expect to die in the test of spite.

Or just, you know, Summon Elemental and Warlock 1. Earth Elemental Earth Glides to find all the traps, then you avoid what can be avoided and Shatter what can't. Your other invocation can be the Detect Magic at will one whose name escapes me. Without setting traps specifically outside of the range of Detect Magic like my above 70ft corridor example you're basically set for all dungeoneering needs.

Arakune

2009-06-25, 02:50 PM

Ever play the old nintendo game called "Lemmings"?

Pit traps wouldn't be an issue, since eventually all the monks that would come after would walk over the fallen bodies of all the monks before.

Also, I'm reminded of something from Another Gaming Comic...lemme see if I can dig up the link..

FOUND IT! (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=357)

He's my new hero now. :smallamused:

Doc Roc

2009-06-25, 02:54 PM

Or just, you know, Summon Elemental and Warlock 1. Earth Elemental Earth Glides to find all the traps, then you avoid what can be avoided and Shatter what can't. Your other invocation can be the Detect Magic at will one whose name escapes me. Without setting traps specifically outside of the range of Detect Magic like my above 70ft corridor example you're basically set for all dungeoneering needs.

If you would like to attempt the ToS dungeon with such a layout, please let me now. :: gentle grin ::

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-06-25, 04:10 PM

If you would like to attempt the ToS dungeon with such a layout, please let me now. :: gentle grin ::That's essentially my scout layout for the current Druid. I know it's ineffective, but it's better than the Monk method.

At least I know some of your tricks. Tick, tick, tick...

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-25, 04:43 PM

Again just trying to correct imo misperceptions, misunderstandings and mistakes ... (currently preparing playtesting ...):smallsmile:

As has been pointed out, no such passage as yet has been found. Could you please provide a citation, in case we're simply missing the quote?

It has already been done above. It is even in the SRD (masterwork tools section in the equipment rules).

Exotic materials are generally priced at a greater quantity than 50GP per item. As well, no matter how well it attunes you to the magic in an item, helping you decipher scrolls for instance does not seem to relate to this material.

A scroll of most common codes perhaps?:smallamused:

Lastly, no one here is particularly interested in remaining in the purview of core, yet asceding to the validity of campaign specific custom materials.

I do not think so. A core monk playtest is in the making, so it appears to interest people.

Most doesn't mean all. There are, IMO 2 spells in all of core that benefit classes with low BAB more than those with high BAB.

See? 2 is not "no buffs". And since many buffs also benefit regardless of BAB (for instance damage or defense-enhancers) we can speak about most. Yup.

Few of those are abilities that cannot be attained, and the few that are not attainable to other classes are not particularly worth getting to most classes. The inverse is not true of abilities that monks lack, such as actual spell casting.

UMD gives access to spellcasting. As do items that allow spellcasting. And the DMG appears to disagree that SR is not worth having - the item there (worse than a monk's SR) is quite expensive.:smallsmile:

In core, these are all provided in the same quantities as inexpensive items, the last being an excemption on inexpensive, but also lacking in utility, as few dedicated casters will fail to bypass the spell resistance that they get as a class feature, or the amount from items.

Few dedicated pc casters. Yes. But monsters? Npcs? I do not think so.

The central two lack relevance in the moderate to higher levels due to the persistant low DC of those concerns. The first is only a trick with which to run away, an ability which no one has asserted the monk is particularly bad at, and which can be emulated again, by items. And before you mention reliance on items, I didn't say it's a good idea to emulate these abilities, as they aren't strictly speaking useful, but rather, they can emulate these abilities if they should so desire.

But it will eat up almost half of your wbl to emulate all the monk's special abilities. For some (like immunity to ageing), there are not even items (at least not in core).

Constant at level 9 assuming the party has a wizard.

I guess you refer to the lesser planar ally spell. Two things that might disappoint you (when your DMs cling to broad default balance):
1) it is entirely in the DM's hand whether you know about a certain kind of creature's special abilities or not. The Knowledge skills leave what kind of info you gain about creatures entirely in a DM's hand.
2) the lesser planar ally spell is dangerous. Fluff, you may say, but basically you get a service from an npc that often is not so good-hearted and less forgiving. Again, DM's call.

The ultimate effect of those feats is often attainable (and more) via polymorph. A bonus to grapple, as well as automatic grapple checks on attacks, for instance, is comparable to improved grapple.

Strange. The support for polymorph changes with every thread page.
First yucky, then OK for the druid (wildshape variant), then again yucky, and now a big thing that makes a monk's improved grapple unnecessary (who of course would in that instance never himself take up a polymorph effect ontop of his improved grapple feat which of course is better than improved grab since it grants a +4 to the check).

The exception is stunning fist, which most have argued is ineffective.

The example combat of a CR 13 cryohydra vs a CR 13 core joker monk says otherwise. But I guess, we might leave that to the playtesting thread...

This is only true if you use a two weapon fighting monk, which while certainly allowed in core, is often not worth the penalties incurred. If this route isn't pursued, a two weapon fighting rogue has 1 more attack, and a two weapon fighting full BAB character has 2 more.

No. A TWF rogue has one less attack, a rogue with TWF/ITWF has the same number of attacks, but at -2 and -5 vs the full BAB flurry of the monk.

To be compared to a two handed sword wielded in two hands, which is affordable by this level.

As I did.

By my recollection, a +1 greatsword is affordable at this point in time, while a monks amulet of mighty fists is not.

But a gauntlet +1 is (transfers the unarmed damage of the monk), although it cannot be flurried.
But the whole idea of Kurald Galain was also a "cheap" pieced of metal. And a magic item is not cheap at level 5/6.

It's also surpassed in accuracy (weapon consideration alone) by a master crafted greatsword.

Not cheap, either. And again, masterwork gauntlet (that can overcome DR magic earlier than the greatsword-wielder provided you follow the DMG p.199 guidelines).

Assuming you used the same race and are using the elite array as a human, the other warriors should have +2 damage (assuming my assumption about amulet of mighty fists vs. +1 weapons is correct) more than the monk, equivalent to a 2d6 weapon compared to a 2d8 weapon. Weapon specialization, commonly taken by core only fighters puts them up to 2d10 equivalence, and the higher BAB mixed with power attack brings it to equivalent to 4d6, at fairly low levels. (Level 3, in fact)

That's actually true - but still they get overturned in core by the monk, eventually at level 15 at the latest with 6d8=27 vs their 3d6+14=25 of power attack and specialisation advantage (not counting a monk using divine power, but neither the 1.5 STR mod to two-handed weapons).
Outside core or with morph effects, the monk leaves the fighter far behind in terms of damage per hit.

Can you provide the means of getting 24d8 in core, discluding a rare crit? In addition, this does not compensate for the half strength and full benefit of power attack granted to the individual using a great sword.

I never said 24d8 in core, although it is possible with shapechange (collossal form) and rightuous might as well as improved natural attack on top
6d8 in core without polymorphing stuff.

I'd disagree with this. There is no reason to assume that a caster will choose an improper form for the situation.

Sure. But the player should avoid metagaming (that basically knows the MM by heart and thus chooses the optimal forms).

Actually, in a wizards of the coast board, it was demonstrated that any increase to hit for a monk compared to a fighter improved the fighters damage on a given target by more, simply because the fighter would convert that 5% to hit into 2 points of damage. Since he was hitting the target on a two for his first attack, the loss in to hit had only a small effect on his damage, reducing the per swing damage of some of his iteratives, but drastically increasing his total damage.

I am sure that this comparison did not allow for a) a divine power effect and b) the size stacking for damage that is the monk's forte.

As well, there is a fairly current thread in which a monk advocate is trying to beat typical core beatstick melee damage. Thusfar, he has not succeeded, though he has gotten into the realm of relevant damage. (Though he assumes that a +20 some trip is sufficient to automatically trip the target dumby)

Which are those? Could you provide a link?

This is one of those actual vs. challenges. I'll build a druid 19/monk, and we'll see if this is the case or not.

Yes, we could do that. Even in core. But let me do some playtesting of the lower levels first. 20th level combats are too unrepresentative for most playing experience, I guess.

Those aren't core.

Never maintained they are.

- Giacomo

mostlyharmful

2009-06-25, 05:06 PM

You underestimate the ingenious of a simple resetting Split-Ray Disintegrate trap.

And you good sir or madam have underestimated the hilarity of a speedily deliviered half mountain to the face... BAM right to the face!
:smallsmile: In all seriousness traps shouldn't always be about just ganking the party, sometimes they should be about ganking them arbitrarily and unstoppably.... can you tell I grew up on 2nd ed? Also they should alert the huge unstoppable horde of gribblies that exist solely for the purpose of being run away from, that's fun too.

Again, because there's no reason to. You say deadfalls are effective to deter invaders, but they also work in reverse as you are now trapped inside your own dungeon.

“i’m not trapped in here with you, you’re trapped in here with me” ... heh, you think the guys that build a deadfall into their porch haven't got a gazillion other ways out? You think the whole point of this corridor wasn't just to have you walk down it and be buried under a million million tonnes of dirt? And I didn't say they were effective at deterrence, they're good at massive overkill of inescapable suffacation

If you deadfall the exit to part of the area you don't care about, why even have that area to begin with?

For the hilarity of having medium sized goofballs blunder into it and get buried.. then you dig out their corpses, loot them and raise them to do your laundry.

Even kobolds don't collapse their entire mine to defend their treasure, because they're not INT --.

Yup. who says they'd do that? They have no problem collapsing the bits that don't matter though. Right on your face.

A treasure destroying trap sounds like the work of someone who puts items in barrels or at the bottom of a death filled labyrinth.

Ah, you're starting to get it. Then you dig down and loot the remains. Give them bread and circusses and the proles wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking for your home to kill your wife.

Any wizard with Summon Elemental who acts according to his massive intelligence score won't have trouble with mundane traps.

He'll have no problem setting them off certainly. That's rather my point. Sometimes you don't want the trap to be set off at all under any circumstances, even if you're sipping martinis thirty miles away.

Finally, you don't use them because they're just as easily bypassed using the same methods that don't inconvenience your own.

I'm sure you'd like to think that.... Mwah ha ha ha ha!!!!!:smallbiggrin: How much more does your rogue weigh than the average Goblin? Do they know the code phrase in Orc? Do they know to never touch the blue stone? Or always stop talking under that particular arch? hmmmmm...... If you know how to get by them then well done on using Trapfinding mr Rogue.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-25, 05:15 PM

And you good sir or madam have underestimated the hilarity of a speedily deliviered half mountain to the face... BAM [I]right to the face!

And what's an australia? (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2007/06/09/episode-856-its-a-shadow/)

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-06-25, 05:20 PM

Giacomo, you seem to have an issue with me playing an Evoker barring Conjuration and Transmutation.

Let me just say that in a real DnD game, people do play Beguiler, Warmage, Sorcerer and Wizards in arcane caster role of the party who are bad at buffing. Heck, some parties don't even have primary casters. Real life parties are not going to cater to your monk. Your monk is not entitled to a pool of buffs at your beck and call. That's what the Leadership feat is for.

The honest truth of the matter is that sometimes, people like to blast and drop buffs. It happens (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6307173&postcount=37). Note the Conjurer in that post. Barred transmutation.

Would you have as big an issue if I was playing a blaster sorcerer? No buffs there either, and that's a very common path for sorcerers. Lots of newbies play wizards that way too. Your monk should be able to handle these kinds of parties, otherwise the Joker just isn't applicable to real world games.

The only other level 12 core character I have is this sorcerer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26885[). Would you prefer I use it?

Infact, I think I might, as the Evoker was never put on paper, it was just than an idea. But seeing as you don't like it, I'll make a concession to you and use the sorcerer if you think that an Evoker is "unfriendly" towards your monk.

mostlyharmful

2009-06-25, 05:29 PM

i'm currently working up a rogue with maxed UMD so we can use any items you want to bring to the table.

Plus we've got a Druid that can take up some of the slack.

Eldariel

2009-06-25, 06:16 PM

I'd just like to point out that not every dungeon is inhabited. If some sacred relic or tomb or such is located within the dungeon, chances are the designer would rather let the said dungeon collapse or the McGuffin be destroyed than let it fall to the wrong hands/let the intruders desecrate the tomb/whatever.

Seriously, out of the dungeons I've run, maybe 1/10th has been inhabited. In my experience, inhabited dungeons are the exception. And Alarm-traps exist especially in the inhabited dungeons, making the "run mooks through halls triggering traps"-plan pretty horrible either way; I'm always surprised when it's brought up.

Yukitsu

2009-06-25, 06:24 PM

It has already been done above. It is even in the SRD (masterwork tools section in the equipment rules).

To reiterate, it has been shown that a tool associated with a skill can grant a +2 bonus. It has not been shown that all skills have a mastercraft tool. Please underline the passage stating this, as the individuals above have proven only that a tool with an associated skill grant bonuses.

To point out what the rules say, if you have A related to B, A can be used for B. It does not imply that if you have B, that there is an A for it.

A scroll of most common codes perhaps?:smallamused:

Since repeatedly using the proper code does nothing to increase your odds in UMD of the exact same item, already used 49 times, that is also doubtful.

I do not think so. A core monk playtest is in the making, so it appears to interest people.

Core does. Core + house ruled materials does not.

See? 2 is not "no buffs". And since many buffs also benefit regardless of BAB (for instance damage or defense-enhancers) we can speak about most. Yup.

I stated that the posts that you are arguing against have used the term "most" not all. All buffs other than the two mentioned have an increased effect on full BAB characters, not monks, due to either a greater degree of damage via power attack, greater bonuses from strength buffs due to two handing, or increased damage from each succesful attack.

UMD gives access to spellcasting. As do items that allow spellcasting. And the DMG appears to disagree that SR is not worth having - the item there (worse than a monk's SR) is quite expensive.:smallsmile:

The DMG is a fairly poor indicator as to what the value of a particular item is, in my opinion. As well, the rules state that you may emulate a class ability (which typically includes casting). However, it also states that "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." and since the rings require you to have the spells as a class feature to hold the spells in the ring, not activate them, spell storing rings don't work on non-casters.

Few dedicated pc casters. Yes. But monsters? Npcs? I do not think so.

Monsters of particular note have caster levels similar to PC dedicated casters. A solar for instance has a slightly higher caster level. A nymph has higher than her CR. So does a noble Djinni. Dragons, IIRC have higher caster levels than their CR.

But it will eat up almost half of your wbl to emulate all the monk's special abilities. For some (like immunity to ageing), there are not even items (at least not in core).

Does that make them useful though? I've stated before, they are not useful abilities. Poison DCs for a martial type are pitifully low, same with disease. Dimension door once per day is only useful for running away, etc.

I guess you refer to the lesser planar ally spell. Two things that might disappoint you (when your DMs cling to broad default balance):
1) it is entirely in the DM's hand whether you know about a certain kind of creature's special abilities or not. The Knowledge skills leave what kind of info you gain about creatures entirely in a DM's hand.

A nightmare is a CR 6 creature with few hit dice that have only about 5 abilities that can be conceivably learned via knowledge checks. Two of those abilities are the ones you want. The absolute highest DC you could get here is a 30, which is fairly easy to attain if you are going into the business of planar binding things.

2) the lesser planar ally spell is dangerous. Fluff, you may say, but basically you get a service from an npc that often is not so good-hearted and less forgiving. Again, DM's call.

Worth noting when it's more than a CR 6 shrimp of an encounter, but on a nightmare? Those aren't that much of a consideration, even with a vengeful streak.

Strange. The support for polymorph changes with every thread page.
First yucky, then OK for the druid (wildshape variant), then again yucky, and now a big thing that makes a monk's improved grapple unnecessary (who of course would in that instance never himself take up a polymorph effect ontop of his improved grapple feat which of course is better than improved grab since it grants a +4 to the check).

I consistantly state that it is overpowered. Most people that are saying that they don't like it are also stating that it is overpowered, not that it is weak. As well, wildshape is not like polymorph, as I can't cast it on anyone else.

The example combat of a CR 13 cryohydra vs a CR 13 core joker monk says otherwise. But I guess, we might leave that to the playtesting thread...

I've yet to review it, but considering that I've seen a warrior 13 do it, I don't really think I can learn anything useful from that.

No. A TWF rogue has one less attack, a rogue with TWF/ITWF has the same number of attacks, but at -2 and -5 vs the full BAB flurry of the monk.

I believe the same is implied. As well, the rogue has an additional attack at -12.

But a gauntlet +1 is (transfers the unarmed damage of the monk)

This is contested.

, although it cannot be flurried.
But the whole idea of Kurald Galain was also a "cheap" pieced of metal. And a magic item is not cheap at level 5/6.

Fairly cheap by contrast to an amulet of mighty fists.

Not cheap, either. And again, masterwork gauntlet (that can overcome DR magic earlier than the greatsword-wielder provided you follow the DMG p.199 guidelines).

To reiterate that it's contended that you can in fact do so (and if this is defended, I'd simply point out that it's equivalently true and absurd that monks are neither proficient with gauntlets nor unnarmed strikes) and point out as well that this negates in part your advantage of having more attacks anyway.

That's actually true - but still they get overturned in core by the monk, eventually at level 15 at the latest with 6d8=27 vs their 3d6+14=25 of power attack and specialisation advantage (not counting a monk using divine power, but neither the 1.5 STR mod to two-handed weapons).
Outside core or with morph effects, the monk leaves the fighter far behind in terms of damage per hit.

You can't discount a great weapon its 1.5 of damage, as that's an inherent advantage to using weapons. Divine power is in no way an innate part of playing a low BAB class. As well, a fighter has 4 better points of to hit, which translates to an additional 8 points of damage. Lastly, a monk 15 only does 6d6, not 6d8. 21 damage. And this is only with a monks belt, which compares to a fighter's +4 giants belt, which increases his to hit 2 more above the monk (4 damage) and by 3 damage. This equates to a total advantage of 26.5 vs. monks 21, assuming mundane weaponry.

I never said 24d8 in core, although it is possible with shapechange (collossal form) and rightuous might as well as improved natural attack on top
6d8 in core without polymorphing stuff.

A collosal 2d6 weapon only does 8d6. My best guess is that this translates to 11d6, 15 d6, 20d6. Probably 20 d6. However, a fighter can manage similar using the same methods.

Sure. But the player should avoid metagaming (that basically knows the MM by heart and thus chooses the optimal forms).

Knowing that a Roc doesn't have hands or vocal chords is in no way metagaming.

I am sure that this comparison did not allow for a) a divine power effect and b) the size stacking for damage that is the monk's forte.

I convinced the board at general that it was not a valid tactic at the level used, and that the money expended let the fighter keep ahead anyway.

Which are those? Could you provide a link?

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1167431&page=6

I recommend you talk around to the people there, or read some of there monk threads.

Yes, we could do that. Even in core. But let me do some playtesting of the lower levels first. 20th level combats are too unrepresentative for most playing experience, I guess.

The level is largely academic. The result between monks and druids is largely the same across.

Never maintained they are.

If this is the case, I will start mentioning all builds in terms of freely built characters, rather than core only, because to be honest, core is boring.

Sir Giacomo

2009-06-26, 01:24 AM

T.G. Oskar

2009-06-26, 05:09 AM

Remember: the joker monk with UMD is all about getting greater independence from outside buffs, and for exaclty the situations you describe ... although in the typical campaign that starts at much lower level it could be assumed that the (joker) monk reacts to what his teammates learn as spells with the appropriate kind of items he buys.

Well, as much as I've seen the monk build, and in fear of sounding repetitive: I'd say Psionics does a better work than UMD to reduce the Monk's dependency on outside buffs. Given that the Monk has a PrC severe restriction and a set of decent class abilities which merit different exit points, it's hard to coin a cost-effective class/PrC combination.

A UMD build requires the Monk to dabble, or if I may dare say, rely on something to which it will always have a disadvantage. UMD was designed in mind for being always maxed, and optimized, in order to be used with a low chance of failure. That's why the really high DC scores, and why people like Rogue have a better chance of getting it while being pretty much forced to have a high score on a normally dump score.

On a Monk, this slowly turns into one dump score (Monks hold no benefit with Charisma), and one score that isn't raised too much (Int provides good skill points, and you can replace Wis with Int entirely using Carmendine Monk, but your Will saves will take a hit), along the two extremely needed scores (Wis for all Monk abilities, Dex for AC and Reflex) and the overall needed score (Con, which raises your HP a bit more than the decent score you may have, and also Fort which you have good). In the end, you'll be forced to dump Str and use Weapon Finesse, which means you'll never do enough damage. As well, you need at least a few weapons or a feat (Versatile Unarmed Strike) to have some leverage on attack types. This isn't as needed later on, but early on, and specifically on undead campaigns, this makes the Monk half useless because of non-bludgeoning DR scores.

Psionics work a lot to solve that problem. No, that doesn't mean having 1 level of Monk and 19 of Psion; that's ridiculous. No, that doesn't mean having 1 level of Monk and 19 of Psychic Warrior, which despite the massive synergy it ends up making you regret ever taking that level. But, general psionics and specifically the Psionic Fist aid a lot. And I mean it, A LOT.

Granted, the large amount of spell-based buffs will never beat the low amount of psionic buffs, but psionic buffs tend to be personal, to a point adjustable, rather easy to handle, and quite flexible. Any PrC that grants even a small amount of Psychic Warrior-based psionics boosts the Monk a lot (even more because of the Wisdom synergy)

Psionic Fist specifically benefits the Monk because not only does it provide Wis-based Psionics, but also a modicum of increase on Monk abilities. While you lose some Fortitude (which is probably the most specific weakness), Reflex and Will raise to levels that probably no other class, or monster with your same HD, will ever have (since the base score + ability modifier synergy is insanely good), plus the ever-useful Autohypnosis that coincidentally synergizes excellently with the main stat of the Monk. Plus, you'll always need a pretty high Concentration score, which means you can even take advantage of Diamond Mind abilities (like Mind over Matter, for example)

Granted, it'll probably won't be as flashy or damaging as the unarmed-variant Swordsage, but the combo enough places it roughly around the same tier, and most of the benefits the light armor and maneuvers may grant eventually pair insanely well with the Monk's new psionic powers. Except that, given that you have access to a psionic class' psionics, it means you can learn only the most important ones, and then use the psionic items for the rest; the swordsage only needs his maneuvers, but compared to the psionic Monk's plethora of acquired abilities, it starts to lose ground. Not much ground, tho: Swordsage is pretty impressive on its own, and I'd say it rivals the new tools of the Monk at every level. But, it does grant the Monk a slight modicum of respect.

Finally, you don't need the PrC to be Psionic Fist (of Zuoken). Warmind is equally as good, and it has abilities that grant a lot of benefits and full BAB for the loss of a bit of PP and powers (6 vs. the PF's 10), and no raise of Monk's abilities (but Monk's belt improves that...even the Swordsage benefits from a Monk's belt, but the Monk benefits a bit more). Someone with a death wish or a really tactical mind may try Zerth Cenobite (and even then, though it's no +2 tier increase, it's a far cry from base Monk's overall abilities); sometimes, you may really want to have some extra actions. The few Kalashtar Monks may benefit from Tashalatora, and have a few PsyWar powers around.

Mostly in the end, the "Joker" Monk requires a constant expenditure on party funds that most people will probably won't have, or perhaps be willing to expend, to make the Monk a self-improved character. Unarmed-variant Swordsage or a Psionic-inclined Monk character does the self-improvement job a bit better, and without the crass expenditure of funds, which can be used for the benefit of others, and perhaps for the few magic/psionic items that are useful no matter what (Monk's Belt, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Boots of Speed, Periapt of Wisdom, Gloves of Dexterity) Furthermore, it really synergizes well on a team, since you don't become much of a drag for the party.

If you still intend on making a UMD-based Monk, tho, I'd recommend a Warforged Monk, and find a way to get levels in Artificer. That combo is pretty useful, since you get a modicum of infusions, free item creation feats, craft points for your needs, even better UMD, trapfinding, immunity to poisons and disease, the ability to use Craft to heal yourself, and much, much more. Since you can go and craft your own items (and you'll be roughly the party's tinkerer, so you'll ALWAYS be useful), and actually make Enlightened Fist ever more worthwhile than before. In fact, so much worthwhile, it's hilarious. And oddly enough, I found this out while writing the post. Though, perhaps someone on the WoTC-CO or BG forums already ninja'ed me and did something better. There's some loss in abilities, but it has the doubled benefit of making the character eventually a bane of constructs (if built correctly, that is!), and a boon to the party.