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GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-28, 08:54 PM
...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class! i'm forced to assume that either, A.) people on this board and in other places are crazy, B.) someone had a bad experience with a monk and now everyone agrees with him/her, or C.) there's something I missed about the monk.
Will someone please explain?

Dogmantra
2009-05-28, 08:59 PM
Mostly because of the low BAB and the MAD. Not only does it get 3/4 BAB, and it's a melee class, it uses flurry to get the right amount of attacks, which even with no penalty gives a net -5 compared to a fighter 20.

Monks also need quite a few high ability scores to be pretty decent. They need STR for attacks/damage, DEX for AC, CON for HP (another of their weaknesses is that they're a frontliner with only d8 hit dice), WIS for AC and Monk abilities, then INT if they want to have some skills too.

While exaggerrated somewhat (no, it would not be better to play a commoner 20), monks are pretty weak.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-28, 09:01 PM
Mostly because of the low BAB and the MAD.

Uh...not to sound dumb, but what's MAD?

Flickerdart
2009-05-28, 09:01 PM
And all the abilities they get are useless and have no synergy. They have a high movement speed (enhancement, so stacks with almost nothing) but need Full Attacks to Flurry. Stunning Fist's DC is too low, and Quivering Palm is useless. Their SR will just block out allied buffs. Wholeness of Body is useless. Tongue of the Sun and Moon is random and can be replicated by Tongues. Their Slow Fall is like Feather Fall but much worse.

And then people VoP them...which makes them even worse.

MAD = Multiple Ability Dependent. They need all but Charisma not to suck, while, say, a Wizard only needs pretty much INT.

Dhavaer
2009-05-28, 09:02 PM
Uh...not to sound dumb, but what's MAD?

Multiple Ability Dependence. monks need everything except Int and Cha.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 09:06 PM
My monk post a couple weeks ago(since I don't want to type it out again). I'm considering making a 'Monks Suck' handbook and just linking that though, at this point.
Monk problems:
MAD: You need Wis for AC, Dex for AC, Con for HP, Str for to-hit and AB. You also can't dump Int since skills are pretty important.
Low AC: You can't wear armor, meaning that your Wis needs to be higher than the Armor bonus the Rogue is getting. Generally, you fall behind on AC. MAD excabrates this.
Low AB: Flurry of Blows costs at low levels, and the partial BAB doesn't help. By high levels, Fighters are Power Attacking for 20 and still hitting, so the fact that you can, too, isn't helpful. MAD excabrates this.
Low damage: You have to stack size increases(not easy) to get your fists up to dealing good damage, and you still end up not great. MAD excabrates this.
Wierd/useless abilities: Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Really? Are you really in so many situations where you need to speak Treant and the casters can't cast Tongues? Most of their abilities fall into similar problems by either replicating low-level spells or being too situational(or both), with the Capstone being nearly as much of a nerf as a benefit. SR is useless, too, blocking allied combat buffs and not helping with the BBEG casters or certain low-level deadly spells.
Limited abilities: A lot of their abilities only happen once/day, including the Fort SoD that is once/week. Speed boosts that don't stack with(and are inferior to for half of the levels) the most common spell to boost speed. Just not useful.
Poor synergy: Lots of movement-based abilities and skills, then a major class feature that requires a full-attack. All of their attacks target either Fort or AC, which are generally either both low or both high. The special combat actions are always either Str-checks(which MAD wrecks), AB checks(ruined for obvious reasons), or penalize light weapons and boost THF, meaning the Monk is poor at them.
Low skill points: Really, you expected me to put something here? Fine, MAD excabrates this.
Poor proficiencies: You're limited to using 'special Monk weapons', most of which have poor base damage and weak special abilities. Effective PA is pretty much closed off to you, and most of the weapons are Light, meaning special combat actions are harder. You also have no reach weapons at all, meaning that AoO(the normal method for dex-focused special combat action-based fighters) is sharply limited.
Unarmed wakness: Unarmed strikes cannot be enchanted, meaning you have no way to overcome DR/Silver or similar, and no way to strike incorporeal creatures at all. Yes, you can buy magic Kamas or something, but then why aren't you playing a Fighter and using something good?

Not saying they don't have uses, or that a Monk can't be optimized to be great, just that generally other classes are a better fit most times.

lesser_minion
2009-05-28, 09:11 PM
In essence, most of the things a monk can do can either be done as well - or better - by an equal level character of another class, and those features unique to the monk are not particularly useful to the party.

At the same time, a typical monk also has to pump at least four ability scores in order to be on par with other characters in combat.

The end result is basically that almost any other class will give rise to a better companion for an adventuring party.

A major example, just using the core rulebooks, is Abundant Step (1/day) - an 11th level character (Fighter/Ranger/Horizon Walker) can manage the same thing every d4 rounds. The following level, he can gain a flat immunity to any alignment-based effect, tremorsense, or another feat. At the same time, he is also using a spiked chain/guisarme/kusari-gama/glaive-glaive-guisarme-glaive or similar weapon and regularly tripping and carving up any opponent.

A monk can't compete with most of those.

Eldariel
2009-05-28, 09:24 PM
MAD is really the biggest problem with them (aside from mostly lame class features; really, the first 2 levels are great for dipping from other classes but beyond that the abilities aren't amazing [Diamond Soul isn't worth staying straight Monk; Greater Flurry is the only notable ability beyond level 6 and you don't spend 5 levels on 1 ability]). If you could start with 18 Str, 18 Dex, 18 Wis, 14 Con, 14 Int and 8 Cha, a Monk would be pretty servicable. In fact, you'd have quite a few options; you could use Improved Trip-line to a good effect, you could use Stunning Fist very decently, you could make an ok Grappler (although you'll never be too good at that because of medium BAB), you could even pull a decent damage output and tank.

In short, a Monk with those stats can do about the same amount of stuff well as a Fighter with 18 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 8 Wis and 8 Cha. Notice the critical point? The Fighter has stats from a high-powered game (that array comes down at 32pb) while the Monk has stats you could practically never buy or roll ever (that comes out at 60pb). And the Fighter isn't even very SAD. A Druid could be perfectly servicable with Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8 from level 6 on. That's the equivalent of a 22pb or a low-powered game.

Level 1-5 would be hard without some Dex, but the Druid could do just fine with Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8, which is the same 22pb. That same array works for the Wizard and the Cleric (the Cleric doesn't need Dex thanks to heavy armor, but can make great use out of Str & Cha). Now try to build a Monk on 22pb.

You end up with something like...14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha. Yeah, you're gonna suck. Your AC is gonna be 14 for most of the game, you won't have any HP to speak of and your attack bonuses will suck.

HP McLuvin
2009-05-28, 09:29 PM
And then people VoP them...which makes them even worse.Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 09:31 PM
Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.Monks(and other martial classes) need certain magic items. Things like a way to fly. VoP may give you 80% WBL, but it doesn't let you choose the WBL you need.

Dhavaer
2009-05-28, 09:31 PM
Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.

Monks need magic items to do things like fly, which VoP doesn't replicate.

Siosilvar
2009-05-28, 09:32 PM
Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.

No access to magic items.

EDIT: Sigh, ninja'd. Twice.

Assassin89
2009-05-28, 09:32 PM
My DM thinks monks are overpowered. I'm not sure why being able to easily overcome hardess, being unable to age, being able to take less damage from magical attacks, being immune to poison is either underpowered or overpowered.

Eldariel
2009-05-28, 09:37 PM
Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.

It's great for the first 4-5 levels. They get a decent AC 'cause they stack their normal stats with the bonuses and so on. But, you'll never:
-Be able to hit incorporeals reliably
-Penetrate damage reductions
-Be able to fly
-Be able to teleport
-Be able to take extra actions
-Be able to acquire rerolls
-Be able to charge and full attack
-Gain Haste on your own
-Get inherent boosts to your stats
-Get +5 Deflection & +5 Natural Armor bonuses
-Get miss chances

and so on and so forth. VoP just doesn't give you the most important abilities a Monk needs out of items (flight, teleportation, penetrating various damage reductions, hitting incorporeals, rerolling, boosting all stats [the focused "pump 1 stat a lot and others less"-effect of VoP is very bad for Monks needing 4 of their stats majorly buffed], etc.); it improves your numbers a bit and that's it.

Items do so much more than just improve your numbers; your numbers don't really matter if what you do with them doesn't affect the opponents. You could deal infinite damage for all your opponents care if you can never reach them in the first place. Items are the grand "equalizer" between casters and non-casters; that is, they're the way non-casters get access to stuff casters have been playing around with for a dozen levels already. VoP means you'll never get the equalizers so you'll never be on the same playing field as the rest of the party (after the first few levels where everyone has nothing but a bunch of small numbers and VoP makes your slightly bigger than the others'; whoppidoo?).


If you want a class that can make decent use out of VoP, try Druid. It can make much more good out of the whole +8-to-1-stat deal (moar Wis!) and they can replicate everything items would do for them with spells. Still not as good as an itemed Druid, but much closer than a VoP Monk vs. normal Monk.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure why being able to easily overcome hardessWhat? Even if Monks could, I've got an Adamantite Dagger that does the same thing. Never spend levels on something that can be replicated by money. If you must, any ToB char gets Mountain Hammer.
being unable to age,Do your games normally go 50+years in-game?
being able to take less damage from magical attacksBBEG casters are generally higher level than you and ignore it, low-level casters generally buff their allies anyways. All SR stops is buff spells.
being immune to poisonToo expensive for the save DC. You only need immunity one time out of 20, if your DM follows NPC wealth guidelines.

Eldariel
2009-05-28, 09:39 PM
What? Even if Monks could, I've got an Adamantite Dagger that does the same thing. Never spend levels on something that can be replicated by mony. If you must, any ToB char gets Mountain Hammer.

Eh, Power Attack called. It also does the same thing, and everyone has it. Oh, and it does it really well.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-28, 09:41 PM
My DM thinks monks are overpowered. I'm not sure why being able to easily overcome hardess, being unable to age, being able to take less damage from magical attacks, being immune to poison is either underpowered or overpowered.

Consider this: Everything the Monk can do (except tank), a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid can do far, far, far better.

Ovecoming Hardness? Innuendo aside, Acid damage. Sonic.
Unable to Age? Warforged. Dragonborn technically reverse the aging process. Necropolitan.
Take less damage from attacks? Don't get me started. This list would take pages.
Immune to Poison? Heroes' Feast, a number of other spells, being a Warforged, or just boosting your Fort save to the point where you can't feasibly fail.

Gorbash
2009-05-28, 09:46 PM
being able to take less damage from magical attacks

First of all, at level 20, when Monk gets Perfect Self ability that gives him DR 10/Magic, 10 dmg isn't that much, since anything will hit for about 70 dmg anyway.

Second of all, who the hell doesn't have a magic weapon on lvl 20? Note that, at lvl 20, you'll be facing CR 20+ creatures, who'll undoubtabely have the means to either buy a 2000 gp magic weapon, cast magic weapon, have magical natural attacks, etc etc...

Third of all (?), at lvl 20 you have bigger issues than getting hit in melee. Avoiding those nasty 9th lvl spells or god forbid epic ones.

HP McLuvin
2009-05-28, 10:15 PM
Monks(and other martial classes) need certain magic items...D'oh! Right, sorry...for some reason I wasn't really thinking when I asked that question.
Although, Eldariel's suggestion of Druid plus VoP sounds veeeery tempting.:smallwink:

RTGoodman
2009-05-28, 10:37 PM
...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class!

Well, there's a big gap between those two things. Yeah, the Monk pretty much sucks as-is, as everyone has explained; however, I still LOVE the idea of the class, and I've played several. So, I mean, it's not that people all HATE the Monk, it's just that, mechanically, it isn't so good, even at what (fluff-wise) it's supposed to be good at.

afroakuma
2009-05-28, 10:39 PM
My monk post a couple weeks ago(since I don't want to type it out again). I'm considering making a 'Monks Suck' handbook and just linking that though, at this point.

This is what we need. We seriously need a thread, stickied, up top, saying exactly why this conversation never has to return.

valadil
2009-05-28, 10:45 PM
I've seen monks played reasonably well in a game where they were homebrewed to have full BAB and d10 HP. They were competent but not great. This leads me to believe that a monk as written is gimped.

Thurbane
2009-05-28, 10:45 PM
The two alleged weakest classes, Monk and Fighter, are the two most effective combatants in my current party. The Monk's stunning fist and mobility have been decisive in many battles.

The much debated "uselessness" of certain classes various hugely depending on the gaming style and composition of groups out there.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-28, 10:46 PM
...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class! i'm forced to assume that either, A.) people on this board and in other places are crazy, B.) someone had a bad experience with a monk and now everyone agrees with him/her, or C.) there's something I missed about the monk.
Will someone please explain?

I don't know why people are so anti-monk either. It's one of the best classes.

Nohwl
2009-05-28, 10:48 PM
i was just thinking that i missed this months monk thread.

anyway, most of the monk abilities are handled by spells. except you get the spells really early. at 20th level, you can slow fall any distance. a level 1 wizard can cast feather fall and get the same effect. almost every other ability is like that.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-28, 11:00 PM
I don't know why people are so anti-monk either. It's one of the best classes.

Maybe you can actually back this up by addressing some of the points people bring up?

Come on, people, one to twenty pages in 24 hours or less - you can do it!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-28, 11:05 PM
I don't know why people are so anti-monk either. It's one of the best classes.My monk post from a page ago. I didn't feel like typing it out again.
My monk post a couple weeks ago(since I don't want to type it out again). I'm considering making a 'Monks Suck' handbook and just linking that though, at this point.
Monk problems:
MAD: You need Wis for AC, Dex for AC, Con for HP, Str for to-hit and AB. You also can't dump Int since skills are pretty important.
Low AC: You can't wear armor, meaning that your Wis needs to be higher than the Armor bonus the Rogue is getting. Generally, you fall behind on AC. MAD excabrates this.
Low AB: Flurry of Blows costs at low levels, and the partial BAB doesn't help. By high levels, Fighters are Power Attacking for 20 and still hitting, so the fact that you can, too, isn't helpful. MAD excabrates this.
Low damage: You have to stack size increases(not easy) to get your fists up to dealing good damage, and you still end up not great. MAD excabrates this.
Wierd/useless abilities: Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Really? Are you really in so many situations where you need to speak Treant and the casters can't cast Tongues? Most of their abilities fall into similar problems by either replicating low-level spells or being too situational(or both), with the Capstone being nearly as much of a nerf as a benefit. SR is useless, too, blocking allied combat buffs and not helping with the BBEG casters or certain low-level deadly spells.
Limited abilities: A lot of their abilities only happen once/day, including the Fort SoD that is once/week. Speed boosts that don't stack with(and are inferior to for half of the levels) the most common spell to boost speed. Just not useful.
Poor synergy: Lots of movement-based abilities and skills, then a major class feature that requires a full-attack. All of their attacks target either Fort or AC, which are generally either both low or both high. The special combat actions are always either Str-checks(which MAD wrecks), AB checks(ruined for obvious reasons), or penalize light weapons and boost THF, meaning the Monk is poor at them.
Low skill points: Really, you expected me to put something here? Fine, MAD excabrates this.
Poor proficiencies: You're limited to using 'special Monk weapons', most of which have poor base damage and weak special abilities. Effective PA is pretty much closed off to you, and most of the weapons are Light, meaning special combat actions are harder. You also have no reach weapons at all, meaning that AoO(the normal method for dex-focused special combat action-based fighters) is sharply limited.
Unarmed wakness: Unarmed strikes cannot be enchanted, meaning you have no way to overcome DR/Silver or similar, and no way to strike incorporeal creatures at all. Yes, you can buy magic Kamas or something, but then why aren't you playing a Fighter and using something good?

Not saying they don't have uses, or that a Monk can't be optimized to be great, just that generally other classes are a better fit most times.Maybe you could try, I don't know, responding to this or one of the other 15 posts on the topic instead of just ignoring it and saying "But I'm RIGHT!"?

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-28, 11:43 PM
My monk post from a page ago. I didn't feel like typing it out again. Maybe you could try, I don't know, responding to this or one of the other 15 posts on the topic instead of just ignoring it and saying "But I'm RIGHT!"?

I love it when people use the "But I'm right!" argument. Gives me something to rag on.

Harperfan7
2009-05-29, 12:50 AM
I have a few things to say.

1-The monk always has his bases covered, even naked. He can attack, deal plenty of damage, have a good AC, get away quickly, heal himself (a little bit), ignore some things (poisons, diseases, spells), talk to anybody, turn into a ghost (damn useful when escaping or infiltrating), fall without injury, and even teleport a little, etc. He never has to have an item or a spell to do these things.

2- Not needing items for these things, he can spend all his money on increasing ability scores and the rest of his numbers.

3- I can't stress enough how damn awesome his saving throws are. Nobody is free from **** as much as the monk.

4- They are the perfect bandits. If anybody can sneak up on you, take your ****, and escape without consequence, it's the monk. People always say monks can't compare to other fighting classes. Well, try fighting a monk after he's stolen all your stuff from you (after taking out your spellcaster).

Ending statement, monks only suck if all you look at is numbers and straight up fighting ability. (Cue horde of hurtful criticism)

Forbiddenwar
2009-05-29, 01:16 AM
Monks with all their abilities do make for good solo play, Probably the best class to play when going solo.

also on the raging on monks- Monks were complete nerf in 3.0 edition. In 3.5 they were vastly improved. Statistically, more attacks at lower BAB = less attacks at higher BAB. If you think stunning fist is poor (don't knock it if your 4th lvl wizard is flanked by a 1st lvl monk and rogue) don't take it, monks have access to all bonus feats that fighters have, and some as a bonus feat.s

And come on, moving 50 feet to a target, attacking it for 2d10+30 damage and moving 50 feet back, in 1 round with no attacks of oppertunity. And can do it all day and all night. That's bad assery that no class can match.

And yes, all classes depend on the player, they're not called PC for nothing. We had a sumo monk, who could and did trounce wizards and fighters alike.

lsfreak
2009-05-29, 01:34 AM
Just wanted to point out monks don't have the best saves, that effectively goes to the warblade. They'll likely have Fort higher than a monk anywho, and their low Will and Reflex saves are made up by 1st or 2nd-level maneuvers.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 02:15 AM
Lets look at these "facts" honestly.


1-The monk always has his bases covered, even naked.

Ok. It's unarmed damage at level 20 is 2d10+STR. Assuming it has a STR of 26, that makes it 2d10+8. An average of 19.

A horned devil(CR 16, so a Monk should -reasonably- be able to solo it) has DR 10/Silver and Good. Meaning a monk does 9 damage per punch if he hits without items. The horned devil however does 2d6+15 for an average of 21 per hit, all of which bypasses the monk's DR/Magic. The monk deal damage without weapons: [Failed]

The Monk can heal himself? At level 20, for 40 HP. So he can heal away 2 of the hits of the above horned devil. Is it useful? No. But the monk can do it so I'll give you that. [Barely]

The Monk can ignore spells, poisons and diseases. While the Monk can ignore poisons of all kinds, it cannot ignore magical diseases. Comparing it to the aforementioned Horned Devil, the Horned Devil must roll a 15 to bypass the Monk's SR 30. Against a CR 16 creature, the monk can ignore it's 6 damage spells. Naturally this ignores the fact that the Horned Devil is a melee fighter. Unfortunately for the monk, poison sucks and the only good diseases are magical. [Barely]

The Monk can talk to anybody. This is true, but so can anyone able to cast or access the tongues spell. [Useless]

The Monk can turn into a Ghost. Not quite accurate. Turning into a Ghost would actually make the monk moderately useful. No, instead the monk can turn Ethereal. A melee fighter with the ability to stop affecting the material plane? [Hilariously Useless]

The Monk can fall without injury. Not quite accurate either. The monk can fall as long as he is within touch range of a wall without injury. This is sort of like Feather Fall, but significantly less useful. Meanwhile, the fighter just plain doesn't care since falling only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage ever. [Useless]

The Monk can teleport a little. A little is right as the monk can only use Dimension Door once a day for a maximum of 800 feet at level 20. This might be useful if you're running away from someone, but if you're running away then you've failed to begin with. [Failed]


2- Not needing items for these things, he can spend all his money on increasing ability scores and the rest of his numbers.

This means a monk has to spend 36,000 gold four times(CON, STR, DEX and WIS for a total of 128,000) to get the same numbers as a fighter wearing +5 full plate and +STR/CON items(64,000+26,000=90,000). And even then, the monk is still behind on attack bonus(+3 vs +8) and AC(+6 vs +13). The monk spends less money for better stats? [Failed]


3- I can't stress enough how damn awesome his saving throws are. Nobody is free from **** as much as the monk.

You're right. The monk has really high base saves. However, when the Fighter is rolling +12 with a +7 CON modifier versus the Monk's +12 with a +5 CON modifier.. Well, he still doesn't stack up. Sure, the monk has no weakness, but he also has no strength. [Barely]


4- They are the perfect bandits.

Hmm. Assuming he's trying to steal from a 20th level fighter, you'd be almost right. Except the fighter's armor can't be taken off without spending 10 minutes and he's certainly going to notice that. Disarming him is an attack that will fail(your light weapons against his two-handed? Ha. That's an effective -8 penalty right there) and tell the fighter you're there. Over all, attempting to steal his stuff will just get steel pointy bits put into the monk's soft fleshy bits. [Failed]


And come on, moving 50 feet to a target, attacking it for 2d10+30 damage and moving 50 feet back, in 1 round with no attacks of oppertunity. And can do it all day and all night. That's bad assery that no class can match.

2d10+30? Where's a +30 coming from? Assuming he's got maxed out strength(32 or so), power attack and shock trooper.. That's +26 with a full PA for 15. Guess what. Readied actions. That monk charging in for 2d10+26 is gonna get counter-charged by a fighter for 2d6+41(using 32 STR and PAing for merely 15). On top of that, when the monk tries to move away he gets AoO'd for his trouble for another 2d6+41. The monk has badassery that no class can match? [Failed]

And all of that assumes a -fighter- of 20th level. A more useful melee fighter like a Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, Barbarian, Knight, or even a Swashbuckling Rogue will do the exact same thing but significantly more stylishly.

Also:


Monks with all their abilities do make for good solo play, Probably the best class to play when going solo.

No, that's a Ninja(complete adventurer).

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 03:02 AM
How much of an answer do you want from me? The gist of it is this simple question:

What is good about the monk that is not better and cooler about the swordsage?
Nothing. Not a thing. No seriously. NOTHING.

<unneeded warning>
I can talk about this seriously, in depth, and carefully, if you would like. But if you call me a munchkin or a powergamer, so God help me, I will just leave the discussion entirely, immediately. I'm not here for a flame war.
</unneeded warning>

Gorbash
2009-05-29, 03:48 AM
(after taking out your spellcaster)

Right. With what? Bad breath and colorful language?

I'll believe that when you elaborate how monk will be able to do the following:

- Fly
- See invisible creatures
- Negate multiple miss chances (Mirror Image, Displacement)
- Survive no save spells


Nobody is free from **** as much as the monk

How about any spellcaster with Superior Resistance?

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 04:18 AM
Or a Master of Many Forms pretending to be a will o wisp?

MickJay
2009-05-29, 04:31 AM
I can't find that monstrous thread on monks by SirGiacomo, can anyone provide the link please?

mikej
2009-05-29, 04:41 AM
I can't find that monstrous thread on monks by SirGiacomo, can anyone provide the link please?

Google is the best thing ever, here is the glorious Monk thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704)

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 04:51 AM
:: hurts inside :: There are good monk builds. Those are not them.

Killer Angel
2009-05-29, 04:55 AM
I don't know why people are so anti-monk either. It's one of the best classes.

You're saying so, cause in your poster's name there's a "monk", right? :smallwink:

Seriously, the better thing I could say on monks, is that with a monk in the party, finally the fighter and the TWF ranger, will really shine.
(tried by myself: a TWF ranger in a group with a monk, an healer cleric and a sorcerer with fire-based dam spells and no metamagic. I'm one level lower, and I'm the ace of the group...)

Harperfan7
2009-05-29, 04:59 AM
1 - No, the monk has no chance against the horned devil in a fight, but if the monk wants to get away, there is nothing the devil can do, and in that situation, the naked monk is definetly going to be getting away.

However, a 16th level monk with gear has a fair chance against the horned devil, even though the devil is a strong-tough fighter type with heavy melee ability.

Anyways, my point was, if you take any pc class and strip it naked, by comparison, the monk can deal damage naked.

2 - A measley 40hp at 20th isn't much, but it is about 1/3 to 1/4 of his total hp. He can choose how much he wants to heal, up to 40 per day. It's nice to negate a wounding effect pretty much anytime you want or to just have 40 reserve hit points. If the pc classes are stripped naked, his hp level by comparison just shot way up.

3 - Poisons suck against monsters, but not physically weak npcs (who they were created to kill). A full 20th level caster has to roll at least a 10 to beat a 20th monks SR, as low as 5 with the right feats and item. But, once again, if stripped naked, the monk is easily the most resistant to spells (and poisons).

4 - Monks can talk to anybody, at anytime, ever. Spellcasters have to have the spell (known or prepared), not have used it up already, and cast it to do this (unless they have it permantent, but even then it can be dispelled). Totally and completely useless, obviously.

5 - "The Monk can turn into a Ghost. Not quite accurate." Not meant to be taken literally. As I already said, it's very useful when escaping, infiltrating, or getting right next to an enemy without them knowing (unless they have the right abilities/spells currently active and notice him). Monks have high initiative, so potentially several attacks before enemy can react, then the monk can disappear again. Rinse and repeat if you want. Oh, lets not forget, ANYTIME EVER. Obviously hilariously useless.

6 - Even if not within arms reach of a surface, a monk can dimension door the rest of the way safely, turn ethereal and float down, use jump or tumble to lessen damage, or heal some of the damage taken, if any. Also, I'm sorry, I forgot that fighters have infinite hp and 20d6 means nothing to them. Another completely useless ability.

7 - Dimension door can be used to suddenly be right next to someone. Or to be right above a flying enemy, or whatever. Sure, you can't take any actions for the rest of the round, but this ability doesn't make any noise, and it doesn't keep you from reacting to anything. And you can bring the whole party with you (even when naked).

8 - "This means a monk has to spend 36,000 gold four times(CON, STR, DEX and WIS for a total of 128,000) to get the same numbers as a fighter wearing +5 full plate and +STR/CON items(64,000+26,000=90,000). And even then, the monk is still behind on attack bonus(+3 vs +8) and AC(+6 vs +13). The monk spends less money for better stats? [Failed]" Ok, where to start? Those scores affect a whole slew of things, not just ac and attacks. His hp, init, ac, attacks, damage, skills (more significant gain than if a fighter had these), saves (again), and abilities (higher dcs for special attacks).

9 - "You're right. The monk has really high base saves. However, when the Fighter is rolling +12 with a +7 CON modifier versus the Monk's +12 with a +5 CON modifier.. Well, he still doesn't stack up. Sure, the monk has no weakness, but he also has no strength. [Barely]"

A monk likely has a cloak of resistance, which a fighter probably can't afford (largely because its need for him is far less than its worth), but to a monk, it ensures successful resistance to pretty much anything that allows a save. A 20th level monk with Dex, con, and wis +6ed with items and a Cloak +5 has roughly +21 Fort (Con 18), +23 Reflex (Dex 22), +23/+25 (Wis 22 - at least). How many DC's are 30+? Oh, don't forget SR, immune to normal disease, immune to poison, and isn't considered a humanoid.

10 - "Hmm. Assuming he's trying to steal from a 20th level fighter, you'd be almost right. Except the fighter's armor can't be taken off without spending 10 minutes and he's certainly going to notice that. Disarming him is an attack that will fail(your light weapons against his two-handed? Ha. That's an effective -8 penalty right there) and tell the fighter you're there. Over all, attempting to steal his stuff will just get steel pointy bits put into the monk's soft fleshy bits. [Failed]"

Right, because fighters and always awake, holding their weapons, and have good perception skills, can stop dimension door, are immune to stunning and always win grapples, and can see ethereal, and that +4 from improved disarm doesn't count.

11 - "Right. With what? Bad breath and colorful language?

I'll believe that when you elaborate how monk will be able to do the following:

- Fly
- See invisible creatures
- Negate multiple miss chances (Mirror Image, Displacement)
- Survive no save spells"

This all requires having the spells prepared and available, successful perception rolls, detecting and affecting ethereal, stopping dimension door, the monk not having blind fight, beating stun or grapple, etc etc etc. Monks are caster killers. Monks have just as much ability to deal with casters as casters have to deal with monks, except monks have the advantage. Also, whose to say the monk doesn't steal the casters stuff like he did the fighters? They can't always have the right spells active.

12 - "How about any spellcaster with Superior Resistance?"

Right, well if the caster has the spell (which I've never heard of) prepared, available, and cast, I guess they have higher SR than a monk, but probably worse saves.

So that pretty much sums it up. Monks are obviously and blatantly completely useless and suck at everything.

elliott20
2009-05-29, 05:00 AM
the usefulness of a monk? This.

http://www.freewebs.com/moviemystery/mystinvb.jpg

Faleldir
2009-05-29, 05:14 AM
You want Dimension Door? A Monk 2/Psywarrior 10 with average Wisdom can use it up to three times a day.

Killer Angel
2009-05-29, 05:17 AM
11 - "Right. With what? Bad breath and colorful language?

I'll believe that when you elaborate how monk will be able to do the following:

- Fly
- See invisible creatures
- Negate multiple miss chances (Mirror Image, Displacement)
- Survive no save spells"

This all requires having the spells prepared and available, successful perception rolls, detecting and affecting ethereal, stopping dimension door, the monk not having blind fight, beating stun or grapple, etc etc etc. Monks are caster killers.

Do you mind, if I bet on the caster?

I can concede that, in many of the real games (the ones with sorcerers that choose fireball as their first 3° lev. spell... there are plenty of them), monks are not so awful, but still, even in those conditions, they are the weakest class in all the Core.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 05:48 AM
1 - Horned Devil Thing

Nope. Still does 2d10+8 at best. And see my point about "if you're running away then you've failed".


Anyways, my point was, if you take any pc class and strip it naked, by comparison, the monk can deal damage naked.

See, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you meant "any melee class" Now that you've said "any PC class" I just have to bring up Wizard. A single Orb of Acid spell allows the Wizard to still deal damage with nothing but a ranged touch attack. Add the Acid Splatter reserve feat and Heighten your Orb of Acid to level 9 and you have a 9d6 at will acid-damage attack which only requires a Ranged Touch Attack to hit. Naked? Ya. More damage than the Monk? By a significant amount.


If the pc classes are stripped naked, his hp level by comparison just shot way up.

Assuming a simple Fighter with 16 CON again: 19d10+10+60 averages out to 174.5

With his amazing 40 HP, and--Well, I'll be generous and say 14 CON. The Monk has 19d8+8+40+40 which averages out to 173.5 HP. At best, the monk's class ability allows him to narrowly match the fighter at the cost of a standard action to apply it.


But, once again, if stripped naked, the monk is easily the most resistant to spells (and poisons).

Nope. Druids are also naturally immune to poisons. A cleric can simply cast Spell Resistance for 12+Caster Level(32 while naked) SR. A wizard simply casts Greater Spell Immunity and is not simply resistant but outright immune to anything but 9th level spells. While you are correct in terms of melee characters, you cannot say all PC classes.


Totally and completely useless, obviously.

You're right, it is totally useless.


As I already said, it's very useful when escaping, infiltrating, or getting right next to an enemy without them knowing (unless they have the right abilities/spells currently active and notice him).

You mean like See Invisibility or True Seeing(which you should have up permanently)? On an NPC, this might work. On anyone else ever, it fails.


Monks have high initiative, so potentially several attacks before enemy can react, then the monk can disappear again. Rinse and repeat if you want. Oh, lets not forget, ANYTIME EVER. Obviously hilariously useless.

Cool. He swings and misses 5 times then disappears. Next time he appears he eats readied actions.


Also, I'm sorry, I forgot that fighters have infinite hp and 20d6 means nothing to them. Another completely useless ability.

Average of 60 damage. A naked fighter can leap from the clouds themselves and survive 2 times before he's in danger. A smart fighter just ignores it with his Wings of Flying or Potion of Fly anyway.


Dimension door can be used to suddenly be right next to someone. And you can bring the whole party with you (even when naked).

Greater Teleport. And guess what? The wizard can do it more than once a day.


Ok, where to start? Those scores affect a whole slew of things, not just ac and attacks. His hp, init, ac, attacks, damage, skills (more significant gain than if a fighter had these), saves (again), and abilities (higher dcs for special attacks).

HP and Initiative are right. Skills is wrong since temporary INT increase don't give skills. Saves/Damage is meaningless since as I mentioned below your best save will never beat the best save of the fighter. And your damage is meaningless since you're not going to hit with 3/4th BAB and low STR. As for your special attacks: No one cares since they're Fort saves.


A monk likely has a cloak of resistance, which a fighter probably can't afford (largely because its need for him is far less than its worth)

This is just plain wrong. I pointed out above that the monk has to spend 128,000 to the fighter's 90,000. That means the fighter can spend the 38,000 gold he didn't spend to pick up a cloak of resistance +5(25,000gp) and still have 13,000 gold over the monk.


but to a monk, it ensures successful resistance to pretty much anything that allows a save. A 20th level monk with Dex, con, and wis +6ed with items and a Cloak +5 has roughly +21 Fort (Con 18), +23 Reflex (Dex 22), +23/+25 (Wis 22 - at least).

A Fighter would need a Cloak of Resistance for pesky non-Mind Affecting Will Saves. And his 20th level Fort Save(you know, the important one) is +27(Con 18+Items+Book+1 from levels). His Will Save is 'merely' +13(Wis 14), but that's why he gets Mind Blank.


How many DC's are 30+?

Super basic Wizard Finger of Death: DC 29(INT 34). And that's without heighten or even caring about the monk since it's a Death effect and stopped by one little spell the monk can't cast.


Oh, don't forget SR, immune to normal disease, immune to poison, and isn't considered a humanoid.

SR: Assay Spell Resistance. Effective -20 to your SR.
Disease: All the important ones(mummy rot!) are magical.
Poison: Woo. Every PC may as well be immune since they're never useful.
Humanoid: Oh, so he's rubbed of the one beneficial spell that would actually matter more for him than the fighter. Enlarge Person.


Right, because fighters and always awake, holding their weapons, and have good perception skills, can stop dimension door, are immune to stunning and always win grapples, and can see ethereal, and that +4 from improved disarm doesn't count.

And monks never sleep, always watch the fighter, never used his dimension door the day before(which, by the way, allows the fighter to full attack you because you're standing beside him like a moron) are immune to tripping, and can still beat a Fighter in a Strength Check with a -4 penalty.


This all requires having the spells prepared and available, successful perception rolls, detecting and affecting ethereal, stopping dimension door, the monk not having blind fight, beating stun or grapple, etc etc etc.

Overland Flight. True Seeing. No caster is without these. They are staples of casters everywhere because this is what they do. They see the ethereal thing before it chumps the Big Stupid Fighter. They help the Big Stupid Fighter fly up to fight The Dragon on even terms.


Monks are caster killers. Monks have just as much ability to deal with casters as casters have to deal with monks, except monks have the advantage.

No, they're not. This is a very, very common misconception.


Also, whose to say the monk doesn't steal the casters stuff like he did the fighters? They can't always have the right spells active.

Because of Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Because Overland Flight is 1 hour/level. Because the Cleric has all his buffs Persisted. Because the druid is an Earth Elemental and sleeping in the ground(if at all). None of these things the Monk can deal with.


Right, well if the caster has the spell (which I've never heard of) prepared, available, and cast, I guess they have higher SR than a monk, but probably worse saves.

Spell Resistance, the spell. While utterly worthless, it gives 12+CL(32 naked) SR. More than the Monk. Superior Resistance gives the same benefit as a Cloak of Resistance +6. Yes. A caster has better SR and saves than a monk, if the caster cares to have it.


So that pretty much sums it up. Monks are obviously and blatantly completely useless and suck at everything.

The first thing you've said all night that I've agreed with.

EDIT: Took me awhile to find it, but here's Solo's sorcerer from a level 20 challenge a way's back: Sorcerer 18/Archmage 2 (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=4511). From what I see, it's pure Core. If a monk can beat it in varied situations, I would eat my hat.

Lycar
2009-05-29, 06:11 AM
Ugh.. why do people always have to take lv. 20, the END of a non-epic charcaters carrer as a friggin' baseline for everything?

At low levels, a monk is perfectly able to pull his weight in a group. For example, at lv. 4, he is a mere 1 (!) point of BAB behind a full BAB class.

So are a rogue and a cleric incidentially.

And that is the amout that Weapon Focus gives, the amount that makes the feat 'not worth taking'. So then the monk (and rogue and cleric) being one point behind should likewise be insignificant.

And Flurry of Blows basically turns a monk into a TWF (well, TFF technically) without having to spend a feat on it.

His damage is also on par with what a ranger or rogue can dish out (except that rogues can get ahead with sneak attacks).

D8 hit die is what a ranger and cleric have too. His AC will be his greatest liability though, so he has to fight smart, not hard.

Perhaps it would do some of you good to try a low level game for a change of pace. :smallannoyed:

Lycar

AslanCross
2009-05-29, 06:12 AM
1 - No, the monk has no chance against the horned devil in a fight, but if the monk wants to get away, there is nothing the devil can do, and in that situation, the naked monk is definetly going to be getting away.


Such a monk had better make sure he knows where he's going, because the Horned Devil has greater teleport at will. The monk running away doesn't help his party either---who can probably deal with the devil themselves without the monk's help.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: The Horned Devil also has Regeneration and only takes normal damage if the weapon is good-aligned and silver. Sorry, Mr. Monk, but you're only going to end up giving the Horned Devil a good back massage. If the Monk's only way of dealing with the Horned Devil is running away, that's not very impressive. Even if it were, other classes can pull off the escape better, even. I don't want to pull a Schrodinger Wizard, but with teleport, he can take his entire party with him.

Gorbash
2009-05-29, 06:15 AM
This all requires having the spells prepared and available

1 hour/lvl buffs. Overland Flight, Phantom Steed that puts Fast Movement of the monk to shame. So there you go. Even if a Wizard doesn't have invisibility etc, he'll be still flying up there, where you can't touch him, and you obviously skipped that part


successful perception rolls

Easy. Most Familiars have Scent, so at least you know where to point Glitterdust.


detecting and affecting ethereal

Corpse Candle.


stopping dimension door

Dimensional Anchor, Anticipate Teleportation.


the monk not having blind fight

It's a crappy feat, you'd cripple yourself by taking it. Even then, it doesn't stop Mirror Image, nor does it negate the chance, it just reduces it.


beating stun or grapple

Stunning requires hitting and failing a save. Since that first is unlikely and the second one even more (since wizards tend to put a lot into Con score, and the mentioned Superior Resistance gives +6 on all saves and lasts 24h). Grapple is beaten by teleporting, dimension dooring, dimension jumping, dimensional shuffling, Abrupt Jumping (which means a Wizard can negate any attack by teleporting away 10 ft, int modifier times a day), or with having Heart of Water (again 1 hr/lvl, gives Freedom of Movement).
etc etc etc.


Also, whose to say the monk doesn't steal the casters stuff like he did the fighters?

Now you're just grasping for straws. So your idea is to run up to a wizard, rummage through his backpack with Sleight of Hand that's not your class skill and get away with his items, all in one round? Which items are you talking about anyway? Spellbook? If you try that, you must know that they already prepared the spells, which means you're 6-18 seconds away from death, not to mention Wizards tend to guard their Spellbooks as much as Liches guard their phylacteries. Trapping them, putting them in Leomund's Secret Shelter, Shrinking them, Secret Paging them...

The issue of casters not having the right spells was adressed by hour/lvl to 24h buffs.


12 - "How about any spellcaster with Superior Resistance?"

Right, well if the caster has the spell (which I've never heard of) prepared, available, and cast, I guess they have higher SR than a monk, but probably worse saves.


Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean anything, aside not being familiar with spellcasters. It's a very common spell in any optimization guide, as is each and every spell that I noted above, meaning that any optimized wizard will have it. My wizard has them all prepared, every day.

You still failed to adress the issue of Wizard's top abilities:

Flight
No save spells (Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness, Web, Ray of Exhaustion, Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Howling Chain (try beating +15 opposed trip checks) to name a few)
Abrupt Jaunt (PHB 2, p. 70)

I have adressed your so called qualities of a Monk and beaten them all with not having to resort to any uncommon spell and most of them are 3rd lvl or lower.


Monks are caster killers.

Casters are caster killers. If you really want me to demonstrate, make a lvl 12 monk with any feat combination, any item (according to WBL), any prestige class and pit him against my lvl 12 Wizard who's not even that optimized since DM doesn't allow a bunch of stuff a usual wizard would have.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 06:44 AM
A level 9 wizard (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17635), if you're going to debate mid-level. Basic optimized conjuration specialist. Built by a friend.

Wizard 4/Warmage 1 (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=21645). Incredibly basic wizard/warmage aiming for Ultimate Magus. Built by myself.

All of these are acceptable builds(though they use non-Core materials) which an anti-caster monk would have a hard time facing off against either of these builds in a series of situations.

GolemsVoice
2009-05-29, 06:57 AM
In the group I am currently playing, my friend's monk character does surprisingly well, and far better than what you might expect from just reading things some peoplle say. We are all not terribly optimized (I'm rogue level 17, and one level of that prestige class that can take favored skills and becomes a native outsider at level 10 (Exemplar?), go figure), so she fits well.
But what I really found her to shine at is grappling. Unless you pitch her against monsters that are specifically designed to grapple people, like many huge or bigger tentacled horrors, she can more or less immobilize any enemy while beating the crap out of him, and I found that, more often than not, this has saved the day.
He also is the only character in our group to not have died one single freaking time, to the extend that our group considers to kill her in her sleep just so she knows what it feels like.

EDIT: How comes there is so much HATE against the monk? I can understand disliking him because he may be underpowered, and proving that with some math and examples. I can understand wanting to fix the monk, or replace him with different classes of the same flavor. But some people in this thread seem to downright relish beating the monk down with a vigor I cannot comprehend. It almost seems to me like arrogance (I'm not accusing anyone, really), and snobbishness, as if their choices were inherently, and not only because of ingame power reasons, better than those of the poor fools who still play a monk while he OBVIOUSLY can't compare to no one.

Gorbash
2009-05-29, 07:10 AM
Oh, yeah, I forgot.

Here's my 12th lvl Transmuter (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=589).

Spells that are cast first thing in the morning are:

False Life (1d10+10 Temp HP)
Greater Resistance (+3 on all saves)
Phantom Steed
Heart of Air
Heart of Earth (+24 Temp HP, activate Stoneskin as a free action)
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (Evard, Ray of Sickness, Displacement, Solid Fog, basically 4 quickened spells)

Pre-combat spells are: Mirror Image, Protection from Evil and Bear's Endurance from a Wand.

In addition to that, as an Earth Dreamer, I have a limited version of Blindsense (Earth Sense), Tremorsense, Earth Glide, a good fort save and my familiar has Scent. My spellbook is hidden somewhere on Ethereal Plane, so if I'm not flying or sleeping in a Rope Trick I have Scent and Tremorsense, so I guess your chances of stealing something are null.

I have 125 HP (137 with Bear's Endurance) on average, around 150 with Channeled Lifetheft (a spell which leaves you Exhausted with no save).

First round of combat, my Familiar casts Displacement, while I, if I don't already have would cast Mirror Image, so at best, you're looking at 8% of actually hitting me. If I'm not pulling punches, I'd just cast Greater Invisibility, then what would you do?

I can move 240 feet in a round, Air Walking with one move action.

Combination of Heart of Air and Heart of Earth gives me Light Fortification, so your Stunning Fist has a chance of not affecting me to begin with, after which I roll a +15 fort save against which DC...?

Gimme your best shot.

DISCLAIMER: This is not a theoretical character, made just to gank monks, it's a character in an ongoing Shackled City, adventure path, so very much viable, and he's weak compared to other optimized Wizards.

EDIT:


How comes there is so much HATE against the monk?

It's because of the people like Harperfan7 who advocate him with no reliable proof.

kamikasei
2009-05-29, 07:17 AM
EDIT: How comes there is so much HATE against the monk?

I'm inclined to guess it's because so often new players (or just new forumites) squee over how totally awesome their monk character is and how many amazing things he can do and how no spell can touch him... when it's just not true. If the monk were just crap no one would particularly care - the Truenamer is a joke, not an object of hate. What seems to spur the real vitriol is the strange phenomenon where certain classes - monks, soulknives, warlocks early on (they're still subject to it, but they're now less feeble than when they were first published) - which are objectively underpowered are branded as TOTALLY AWESOME or just EVIL AND BROKEN depending on whether it's a player or DM speaking. Something about these classes - the apparent independence from gear, the all-day abilities, who knows? - provokes the same misjudgements time and time again, and they become tedious.

Gerrtt
2009-05-29, 07:22 AM
I wish I still had the numbers lying around...maybe I do on my home computer, but I once did the math to show how a commoner with a quarterstaff was better at disarming than a monk using special monk weapons designed for disarming.

Pretty sad in my oppinion, because the monk should be a much stronger class given the role it is supposed to be filling (hit and run melee, but it can't do that without a heavy investment in feats that overall aren't worth it, and even then they aren't using their best class feature because you can't flurry with spring attack).

lesser_minion
2009-05-29, 07:33 AM
Abundant Step has been addressed - it's a weak version of the Horizon Walker's Planar Terrain Mastery (Shifting), which is usable more often, and available earlier. Note that none of the Horizon Walker terrain masteries actually require them to be in a particular terrain.

It is also cast at a higher caster level.

If you're going core-only, a better way to get mobile melee characters is to just go with a polearm and Horizon Walker. Which also might have a snowball's chance of hitting those casters as well (in the very least, Superior Invisibility is cut down to just being 20% concealment).

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-29, 07:40 AM
EDIT: How comes there is so much HATE against the monk? I can understand disliking him because he may be underpowered, and proving that with some math and examples. I can understand wanting to fix the monk, or replace him with different classes of the same flavor. But some people in this thread seem to downright relish beating the monk down with a vigor I cannot comprehend. It almost seems to me like arrogance (I'm not accusing anyone, really), and snobbishness, as if their choices were inherently, and not only because of ingame power reasons, better than those of the poor fools who still play a monk while he OBVIOUSLY can't compare to no one.

I'm sorry, you haven't noticed we get a monk thread every week, and every time someone comes in going "BAWWW MONKS AREN'T BAD" ?

People get pretty tired of repeating the proof. They relish in beating down the idiots who did no research and spout nonsense about how "great" monks are.

There's nothing wrong with playing monks or having fun doing it. Claiming they're a good class, though? Come on.

Faleldir
2009-05-29, 07:43 AM
One thing that hasn't been mentioned: The Horned Devil also has Regeneration and only takes normal damage if the weapon is good-aligned and silver. Sorry, Mr. Monk, but you're only going to end up giving the Horned Devil a good back massage.
To be fair, there is an alternate class feature in Complete Champion that makes a Monk's unarmed strike Good-aligned, so that's one example he doesn't have to worry about; but Heironeous help him if he ever needs Evil or Chaotic weapons.

kamikasei
2009-05-29, 07:53 AM
To be fair, there is an alternate class feature in Complete Champion that makes a Monk's unarmed strike Good-aligned, so that's one example he doesn't have to worry about; but Heironeous help him if he ever needs Evil or Chaotic weapons.

Good AND silver, not good OR silver; that Monk still isn't going to be penetrating DR unless he coats his fists in alchemical silver first.

Optimystik
2009-05-29, 08:14 AM
I don't know why people are so anti-monk either. It's one of the best classes.

Back under your bridge! No goat for you!

Faleldir
2009-05-29, 08:21 AM
Good AND silver, not good OR silver; that Monk still isn't going to be penetrating DR unless he coats his fists in alchemical silver first.
Oh crap, I thought Monks had Ki Strike (silver) in core. I was wrong.

mostlyharmful
2009-05-29, 08:26 AM
Oh crap, I thought Monks had Ki Strike (silver) in core. I was wrong.

Even if they did it would just shift the thing from devils and weres to demons, or Golems, or anything else with an alignment DR other than Lawful or DR/ColdIron, or Dr/Piercing or whatever.....

A melee fighter with a focus on a weapon can have a set of spares in their Ehlonnas Quiver, one for every occasion and just ask the mage what he needs on a case by case/ identify the gribbly basis.

Monk's are Ok, just so long as you run a social campaign with a heavy roleplay focus, that way you get the cool wise master bit (plus diplomacy as a class skill) and just hope there's virtually no combat or rolling involved, kind of undermines the choice of DnD but there you go.

BobVosh
2009-05-29, 09:02 AM
Ah...monks. How much you miss your 2nd ed days.

Just one thing on saves, exluding wizard schnanigans, paladins tend to beat thier saves. Except for dex. Also with only a quick splash, which is all you ever want from pallies.

That sorcerer, while not the most optimizied and core only, should be able to beat anything a monk throws.

Stipulations: Monk and monk prestiege classes only. No more than an LA 1. Ah, hell, screw it. At least >half level in monk or monk prestiege classes.

Vs a sorcerer with core only, and apparently only 2 attack spells(depending on how you count em).

I'll DM, or run the sorcerer. Someone up for entering the monk in an arena, or even sandbox hunt?

Faleldir
2009-05-29, 09:11 AM
Well duh, there's no need to explain the DR rules. I just have a bad memory. That must be what happens when you roll a 1 on Knowledge. But this risk is acceptable for the possibility of occasionally seeming to know what I'm talking about!

Optimystik
2009-05-29, 09:41 AM
The way I see it, monks are for dipping. The only way their MAD can be negated is by ignoring it, which means pairing them with a WIS-based caster. I use monk purely on my way to Sacred Fist, or paired with PsyWar. If you must do the bareknuckle whacking thing, then PrC out of it, there's a ton of nice ones like Tattooed Monk or Shadow Sun Ninja. Anything but pure monk!

The Glyphstone
2009-05-29, 09:49 AM
One thing the monk does absolutely have going for it is existence as a prerequisite for Drunken Master, one of the most awesomely hilarious PrC's ever. It's not a GOOD PrC, primarily because you have to be a Monk to take it, but it is Funny.

FMArthur
2009-05-29, 10:54 AM
Bottom line:
Monk sacrifices too much combat ability to be mostly a defensively-oriented class, and can only protect himself from harm.

13_CBS
2009-05-29, 10:55 AM
One thing the monk does absolutely have going for it is existence as a prerequisite for Drunken Master, one of the most awesomely hilarious PrC's ever. It's not a GOOD PrC, primarily because you have to be a Monk to take it, but it is Funny.

Hmm...is that the one from...what was it...Complete Warrior? The one with abilities like Drink Like a Demon and was good with improvised weapons?

Optimystik
2009-05-29, 11:04 AM
Hmm...is that the one from...what was it...Complete Warrior? The one with abilities like Drink Like a Demon and was good with improvised weapons?

Yes, Drunken Master is in CW. Getting sloshed is like a barb's rage: More STR or CON, less AC. (Wis penalty)

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 11:17 AM
There's actually a really fantastic hack revolving around DM, but I really just love the PrC. In a low magic world, it supplies bonuses that are hard to replicate.

Pramxnim
2009-05-29, 11:19 AM
You mean the Monk/Knight/DM wielding a 100-ft ladder to give him 100-ft reach AND make all enemies within 100-ft be counted as being in difficult terrain? :smallbiggrin:

Caewil
2009-05-29, 11:40 AM
I suppose if you use a Fist of Zuoken, the monk is actually okay. He even gets slightly more PP at level 15 than a Psywar. Decent for a mid-level campaign, which is IMO, much more common than those which hit level 20. Sort of decent anyway. At least you get to use Dimension Door more often.

Of course, Monk1/Psion9/Slayer10 would be better, if you can get that feat that allows a monk to use his Int as bonus to AC instead of Wis. But you could just multiclass to fighter and get heavy armor... I suppose if you prefer the look of the thing. Make it an Elan for extreme self-sufficiency.

Telonius
2009-05-29, 11:48 AM
Reposted from quite awhile ago in the archives ....



I'd say that monks are underpowered.

My reason?

Morris the Mock Monk.
Human Fighter, Strength-focused.
Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
1(Human): Stunning Fist
1(Fighter): Power Attack
2(Fighter): Improved Grapple
3: Deflect Arrows
4(Fighter): Improved Disarm
6: Combat Reflexes
6(Fighter): Improved Trip
8(Fighter): Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
9: Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
10(Fighter): Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)

Morris will have exactly the same ability scores as a 20th-level Monk. Morris has all six of the monk's Bonus Feats, while the Monk can only have three of them. Fighter has 6 feats (4 fighter and 2 normal) left over between then and 20th level - the Monk only has 7 feats to begin with (8 if a human), so Morris can most likely take all of the same feats that the Monk does by level 20, minus one. He has an average of 20 more hit points than the monk by 20th level. He has a higher BAB, which means he can hit more often than an equivalent-level Monk. Morris Power Attacks for at least 3 every time; with his Weapon Specialization, this means he's hitting as hard as a 20th-level monk starting at 12th level. (Except his attack bonus is still 2 better than the monk). Morris can wear enchantable armor while fighting, which costs less than the Monk's Bracers; he has an AC almost equalling, if not exceeding, the Monk. He can use his enchanted Gauntlets without using a Feat to gain proficiency.

Monk, on the other hand, gets faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, Slow Fall, immunity to diseases, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, immunity to poison, Dimension door 1/day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, etherealness (monk level) rounds per day, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

But several of the Monk's bonuses can be gained by magic items. The Fighter can afford these, since he's paying less for his armor. Ring of Feather Fall, Periapt of Health OR Periapt of Proof against Poison (can't have both on at once), widgets of Etherealness and Dimension Door 1/day.

So, Monk's advantages: Faster movement, a higher jump check, evasion, +2 vs enchantment, immunity to diseases OR poison, ability to heal 2x monk level hp per day, SR monk level + 10, Quivering Palm, no aging penalties, speaks with everything, DR 10/magic, better Reflex and Will saves, one more feat than Morris, 2 more skill points per level (with a much better selection of class skills), and extra attacks from Flurry of Blows.

That's it. Those are the only advantages a real monk has over Morris, who has deliberately left his normal role to do what the Monk is supposed to be able to do. (I'm not going to do the stats, but I suspect that any advantages the extra Flurry attacks would give the Monk are rather small).

Note that this doesn't even bother comparing the Monk with a Wizard, who really ought to be able to mop the floor with any melee class if the Wizard's player knows what he's doing, at all. It's another class doing almost exactly what the Monk is supposed to be doing, but better, using only Core feats and items. The "advantages" the Monk holds are negligible (and become worse if the Fighter doesn't take all six of the Monk Bonus Feats). This is simply poor mechanical game design. No Player Class should ever be redundant.

RS14
2009-05-29, 12:21 PM
I wish I still had the numbers lying around...maybe I do on my home computer, but I once did the math to show how a commoner with a quarterstaff was better at disarming than a monk using special monk weapons designed for disarming.

Yes, but that's Nunchaku/Sai fail, not monk fail. Give that same monk the quarterstaff and he will be able to disarm, although not as well as a full BAB class using a heavy flail.


Even if they did it would just shift the thing from devils and weres to demons, or Golems, or anything else with an alignment DR other than Lawful or DR/ColdIron, or Dr/Piercing or whatever.....

A melee fighter with a focus on a weapon can have a set of spares in their Ehlonnas Quiver, one for every occasion and just ask the mage what he needs on a case by case/ identify the gribbly basis.


You know, a monk can do that too. They've got much poorer weapon choices, but their attacks are nerfed by this, by low strength, and by low BAB, not because they have the option of making unarmed strikes. A monk can buy a +5 Morphing Holy Shocking Frost quarterstaff just as well as a fighter. They're still limited, yes, but it is unreasonable to pretend that every monk follows a "never hit with a wielded weapon" conduct.

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

Also, Ki Focus weapon? What the hell? A +1 enchantment to allow a monk to deliver special attacks with a weapon, rather than the unarmed strike they are nearly always able to make? I suppose it allows marginally more damage, but nearly all the time it would seem better to just make an unarmed strike.

Roderick_BR
2009-05-29, 12:31 PM
You people are still on this?
Look, no one is anti-monk. I bet a lot of people here love monks too (who doesn't love to be able to trash people with their barehands and dodge arrows?)
Thing is, by bad design (again), monks are simply inferior to any class in core.

In short: A lot of people DO like Monks, but the Wizards of the Coast did an awful job on him. I'd allow any player to play a swordsage and call it a monk anyday.

Note: The first time I got 3.0, I Was like "holy crap, he doesn't need armor? sweet! What? A whole 1d20 as unarmed base damage? Daaamn!"
Then after seeing fighters and barbarians in game, I saw how the monk was weak (including doing things like scouting, grappling, flanking...) 3.5 didn't help much.
And yes, I only learned on how casters could be broken, when I got online.

dragonfan6490
2009-05-29, 12:45 PM
I've got to side with the pro-monks here, in every game I've either played in or DM'd with a monk, the monk has definatly taken charge over the entire combat. I've never experienced monks being weak or underpowered, but actually the opposite, I feel that they are one of the stronger classes.

Jayabalard
2009-05-29, 12:47 PM
...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class! i'm forced to assume that either, A.) people on this board and in other places are crazy, B.) someone had a bad experience with a monk and now everyone agrees with him/her, or C.) there's something I missed about the monk.
Will someone please explain?The people making that statement generally optimize quite a bit more than you do, and play in much higher power level games, and they likely play in games where magic items are much more common than they are in your games.

They tend to be the kind of people who get caught up on efficiency for efficiency's sake.

BobVosh
2009-05-29, 12:47 PM
You people are still on this?
Look, no one is anti-monk. I bet a lot of people here love monks too (who doesn't love to be able to trash people with their barehands and dodge arrows?)
Thing is, by bad design (again), monks are simply inferior to any class in core.

In short: A lot of people DO like Monks, but the Wizards of the Coast did an awful job on him. I'd allow any player to play a swordsage and call it a monk anyday.

Note: The first time I got 3.0, I Was like "holy crap, he doesn't need armor? sweet! What? A whole 1d20 as unarmed base damage? Daaamn!"
Then after seeing fighters and barbarians in game, I saw how the monk was weak (including doing things like scouting, grappling, flanking...) 3.5 didn't help much.
And yes, I only learned on how casters could be broken, when I got online.

Actually this; this is why I hate monk.
It seems neat. So many abilities, none of them really repeat. (flurry upgrades do, etc) All unarmed badassitude? Rock on. *first session die* *second session do nothing useful* *repeat second session forever*
It is a class that is a new player trap, is horribly numbers poor, and doesn't even fit the flavor of the (base) setting.

second reason I hate monk is this thread repeats once a week or so, and somehow I ALWAYS manage to click on it. Multiple times even. RRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAWRRRRRR

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-29, 01:05 PM
The people making that statement generally optimize quite a bit more than you do, and play in much higher power level games, and they likely play in games where magic items are much more common than they are in your games.

They tend to be the kind of people who get caught up on efficiency for efficiency's sake.

Efficiency for efficiency's sake?

How about "not being totally irrelevant" ?

One of my players made a monk in our very first 3.0 campaign. One made a druid. One made a fighter. Nobody was optimized, and the monk got some obscene stat boosts and the like over the campaign.

The druid was the only one who mattered in combat. Early on, he's just animal growth his companion and it would lay waste to everything. Once he got shapechange, they would literally come up against CR 21+ enemies and the fighter and monk would go, "Oh, well, we'll just be sitting over here. Have fun, druid." And the druid would demolish the enemies.

In 3.5, it was the same story, even though harm isn't the same fighter-ender.

If the druid wasn't around, the fighter was still much more relevant than the monk.

Lapak
2009-05-29, 01:23 PM
Ah...monks. How much you miss your 2nd ed days.It's been a while since I ran 2nd ed., and I may be missing the joke here, but Monks weren't IN 2e IIRC. 1e, sure.

Jayabalard
2009-05-29, 01:23 PM
Efficiency for efficiency's sake?Yes; that sounds like it describes your example player's attitudes very well if they actually took the attitude that "Oh, well, we'll just be sitting over here. Have fun, druid.".

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-29, 01:29 PM
Er, yeah. That was after about a full year of watching the druid and companion deal something like ten times the damage they could, because they were mechanically irrelevant in combat.

On second thought, what the hell is wrong with "efficiency for the sake of efficiency"? Why would you not want to be an efficient combatant in a RPG that has no mechanical depth outside of combat?


It's been a while since I ran 2nd ed., and I may be missing the joke here, but Monks weren't IN 2e IIRC. 1e, sure.

AD&D 2nd ed. Player's Option: Spells & Magic, I believe.

Lapak
2009-05-29, 01:31 PM
AD&D 2nd ed. Player's Option: Spells & Magic, I believe.Ah, never picked up any of the Player's Option line. That would explain it.

Telonius
2009-05-29, 01:46 PM
I've got to side with the pro-monks here, in every game I've either played in or DM'd with a monk, the monk has definatly taken charge over the entire combat. I've never experienced monks being weak or underpowered, but actually the opposite, I feel that they are one of the stronger classes.

There are some situations where the power difference doesn't show up as much as others. If your campaign is heavily focused on humanoid or armed opponents, Monks can do relatively well. If your party Rogue is heavily focused on the social skills, and not on the movement skills, Monks can shine a little for scouting. If the DM throws a lot of (and various sorts of) saves at you, the Monk's suddenly not looking as bad. Particularly, if Arcane Caster foes aren't played intelligently (i.e. are played like the 3.5 playtesters played them, casting things like empowered Fireball instead of Mirror Image), the Monk can do what it's intended to. But that's a lot of ifs.

On the other hand, if you run into larger foes that you can't grapple, if you run into undead (or anything else) that are immune to Stunning Fist, If you're fighting something that has a high Con modifier so your Stunning Fist can't connect even if it hits, if you're fighting something with a Locked Gauntlet, if you're fighting a Wizard that has reasonable defenses, terrain advantage, and/or minions, then you're out of luck.

I will say that one thing the Monk can do better than almost anything else, is provide a flanking partner for the Rogue. It's not a core part of its responsibility, and I'm sure there are feats, alternate class features, and items that can replicate it. But if Monk and Rogue are in the same party and aren't flanking buddies, something has usually gone wrong.

Jayabalard
2009-05-29, 02:06 PM
It's been a while since I ran 2nd ed., and I may be missing the joke here, but Monks weren't IN 2e IIRC. 1e, sure.Using 1e stuff in 2e games, and vice versa, was quite easy.


On second thought, what the hell is wrong with "efficiency for the sake of efficiency"? That's a great question; I don't really understand why you're taking umbrage at that.


Why would you not want to be an efficient combatant in a RPG that has no mechanical depth outside of combat?I can think of a number of reasons. An easy example would be someone who doesn't care about mechanics; in that case, it doesn't matter what sort of mechanical depth the game has, or what facets of the game have more mechanical depth than others.

Enochi
2009-05-29, 02:35 PM
Meh it all depends on the players. I am a Dm and had a level 17 Vop half-ogre monk who wiped the floor against everything I sent against him. Hell I chucked a CR 26 solar angel at him by himself and he killed it. However I did let him flurry as a Standard action and Dimesion door unlimited times per day. He also had a church permancy Enlarge person on him. To my knowledge monks seem to do okay but you just cant fight like a barb or fighter with them.

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 02:38 PM
I will meet you on a battlefield of your choice.

HP McLuvin
2009-05-29, 02:39 PM
Er, yeah. That was after about a full year of watching the druid and companion deal something like ten times the damage they could, because they were mechanically irrelevant in combat.No offense, but if over a year-long campaign, two out of three players find their characters mechanically irrelevant in combat, then maybe the DM should have offered those two players the chance to reroll their characters, or worked hard to make them relevant? It can't be that hard - force the party to separate, find a way to temporarily distract the druid with something else...whatever.

Now I'm more of a casual player than most, and the people I game with tend to play with tongue firmly planted in cheek (character deaths are often accompanied by laughter and "dang it, not again!"), so for us efficiency doesn't necessarily factor in as much, and definately takes a back-seat to pure fun. If I, or someone else, chooses to play a monk, our DM will try and accomodate such a choice to the best of his ability. Not that I'm saying anyone else's playing style is wrong, just different. Obviously, there are a lot of problems with the Monk, as identified in this (and many other) threads...but I still find it a fun class to play, underpowered or not.

Draz74
2009-05-29, 02:42 PM
However I did let him flurry as a Standard action and Dimesion door unlimited times per day. He also had a church permancy Enlarge person on him.

Add in some kind of flight, some kind of DR overcoming, and some way to enchant his fists, and you've just solved a lot of the Monk's problems. Good to hear that big fixes like this can indeed help a Monk shine.

Narmoth
2009-05-29, 02:53 PM
1 - No, the monk has no chance against the horned devil in a fight, but if the monk wants to get away, there is nothing the devil can do, and in that situation, the naked monk is definetly going to be getting away.

However, a 16th level monk with gear has a fair chance against the horned devil, even though the devil is a strong-tough fighter type with heavy melee ability.

Anyways, my point was, if you take any pc class and strip it naked, by comparison, the monk can deal damage naked.

We did that in the campaign I'm playing:

We entered the town hall in vashar-land, and had to remove weapons to meet the major.
With my vow of powerty, I had thus no armour, and was unarmed.
Now, I play a ecl paladin/blackguard/ordained champion (taking vop after repenting and becoming good again), and I have thus a great spell called Bone Blade.
Yeah, I can take a bone (in this case, my own rib) and make it into a sword.
If it was a ecl 18 monk I was up against, I'd wipe the floor with him

And my character is optimized for fluff and story in the campaign, not battle (although I do a lot of dmg as well)

Zaq
2009-05-29, 03:14 PM
I'm not a monk defender, generally speaking. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

Monks get basically one trick that no other class can easily replicate... mastery of Stunning Fist. If you focus on that more or less to the exclusion of all else (Ability Focus, Freezing the Lifeblood, Pharaoh's Fist... maxing WIS and using Intuitive Strike... all that good stuff), you can be a halfway decent harrier and interferer. You can ignore some of the MAD by simply ignoring damage; the Flurry/speed dichotomy is less obvious since you don't care much about flurrying; and Stun is a relatively rare condition, so you're bringing something to the table that isn't easily replicated.

Granted, you become very much a one-trick pony, things do become increasingly resistant to mind-affecting abilities (like Stun) as time goes on, you are burning a finite resource with every stun attempt, and you still don't have a lot of ways to boost your attack bonus, but if I were challenged to make a straight monk less useless, I'd focus on Stunning Fist.

Still not a good class by any stretch, though.

Optimystik
2009-05-29, 03:27 PM
Add in some kind of flight, some kind of DR overcoming, and some way to enchant his fists, and you've just solved a lot of the Monk's problems. Good to hear that big fixes like this can indeed help a Monk shine.

While you're at it, give him d12s and a Divine Rank. Maybe a few bonus feats?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-29, 04:58 PM
Just out of curiousity (and because I don't honestly know), how does the Vow of Poverty make them worse? I always figured it was kinda designed with monks in mind.

Agreed. A lot of my monks (and a few druids and sorcerors) have been made with VoP. One of my favorites? A gold dragon monk with VoP. An exotic character, admitadly...

So do I just make bad characters?

I doubt it, since I can create an effect about as good or better than a constant shapechange effect at level 20...(Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10)
...but maybe I'm mistaken.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-29, 05:05 PM
We did that in the campaign I'm playing:

We entered the town hall in vashar-land, and had to remove weapons to meet the major.
With my vow of powerty, I had thus no armour, and was unarmed.
Now, I play a ecl paladin/blackguard/ordained champion (taking vop after repenting and becoming good again), and I have thus a great spell called Bone Blade.
Yeah, I can take a bone (in this case, my own rib) and make it into a sword.
If it was a ecl 18 monk I was up against, I'd wipe the floor with him

And my character is optimized for fluff and story in the campaign, not battle (although I do a lot of dmg as well)This. Even without VoP, I'd say a PsyWar, Warlock, Warblade with EWP, or Duskblade with IUS is better than a Monk in a melee no-items situation. Heck, with the Summon Holy Symbol spell, I'd throw a Cleric up there too, if they had a weapon.

Keep in mind, for most of these, I'm saying better from level 3 on, none of this 20th business. Heck, without items, I'd throw a Druid's pet up against a Monk until 10th level.

Chronos
2009-05-29, 06:21 PM
Quoth Enochi:
Meh it all depends on the players. I am a Dm and had a level 17 Vop half-ogre monk who wiped the floor against everything I sent against him. Hell I chucked a CR 26 solar angel at him by himself and he killed it.This wasn't a monk killing a solar; this was a solar committing suicide in the general vicinity of a monk. Even ignoring its vast array of at-will spell-like abilities and its 20th-level cleric spellcasting, the solar can just fly out of the monk's reach and pepper him with slaying arrows. Sure, it might take a while to get one through, but it's not like the angel is going to run out of them. Meanwhile, there's nothing at all that the monk can do that has any chance of success whatsoever vs. the angel.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 06:46 PM
Agreed. A lot of my monks (and a few druids and sorcerors) have been made with VoP. One of my favorites? A gold dragon monk with VoP. An exotic character, admitadly...

So do I just make bad characters?

To be brutally honest? Yes. A gold dragon monk with VoP? First, lets ignore the 'gold dragon' part since dragons cannot be played in any reasonable campaign. Monk with VoP. This means that the monk loses out on items which can shore up his vast weaknesses(magic cloaks, bracers of armor, many ways to gain flight, etc..) and gains weak bonuses to make up for it. So not only do you have a mechanically ineffective class, you also have a mechanically punitive feat applied to a mechanically ineffective class. A basic fighter 20 is still more effective, and the gulf is only made worse by including VoP.


...but maybe I'm mistaken.

You actually are on that part. But it's an honest mistake since you underestimated how broken Shapechange can be. Shapechange rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm). Specifically:


You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

Bolding mine. A druid Shapechanges into a dragon. He's now an Adult dragon(at CL20) with all the benefits and still retains his spellcasting. Adding in Natural Spell he can still cast in his dragon form. Straight up druid 20 gets all the benefits of Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10, except he also has Druid 20 casting and can share his Shapechange with his animal companion(getting -2- dragons for the price of one!).

Jayabalard
2009-05-29, 07:35 PM
This wasn't a monk killing a solar; this was a solar committing suicide in the general vicinity of a monk.As far as I'm aware, you weren't present, so you really shouldn't be correcting him.

Optimystik
2009-05-29, 07:39 PM
As far as I'm aware, you weren't present, so you really shouldn't be correcting him.

And as far as I'm aware, Chronos is right; that was one brain-dead solar.

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 10:36 PM
As far as I'm aware, you weren't present, so you really shouldn't be correcting him.

Solars have wish...
Wish is... Yeah. Wish can really hurt.

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 10:38 PM
Solars have wish...
Wish is... Yeah. Wish can really hurt.
And Miracle. And the rest of the Cleric's 9th spell level arsenal. And all the other Cleric spells. And flying, and ranged attacks, and massive stats...

Doc Roc
2009-05-29, 10:40 PM
Why do I feel like this an argument for the sake of arguing?
What will it take to present a compelling argument to you guys?

13_CBS
2009-05-29, 10:42 PM
I'm actually curious as to how that particular Solar vs Monk fight went. Do you remember the general flow of events, Enochi?

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 11:13 PM
Why do I feel like this an argument for the sake of arguing?
What will it take to present a compelling argument to you guys?

The question is: To whom? The only valid pro-monk argument is that monks cannot be killed without an exceedingly disproportionate amount of resources spent. The counterargument for this is that no one cares about killing monks to begin with because they're not valid threats.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-29, 11:31 PM
The question is: To whom? The only valid pro-monk argument is that monks cannot be killed without an exceedingly disproportionate amount of resources spent. The counterargument for this is that no one cares about killing monks to begin with because they're not valid threats.Both of those points are valid. However, since D&D is a team game, that means that a Monk in the party contributes nothing, as he has no offense, and monsters(played intelligently) ignore him, making his contribution to the fight effectively nil. That's not good.

mostlyharmful
2009-05-30, 04:26 AM
The only valid pro-monk argument is that monks cannot be killed without an exceedingly disproportionate amount of resources spent.

Um, the amount of resources spent on killing a monk is the same or lower than killing anything else, one or two spell slots, a round or two or some HP in a fight. Monks focus on defence still doesn't measure up to the offense available to Save or Die casters or power attacking full BAB meleers, they just get targetted last because they don't matter (short of crazy item shenanigans).

I've played them, I like them, I don't confuse them with anything even vaguely useful in terms of meeting their parties need for a CR appropriate contribution. My useual fix is something along the lines of - d12 HD, full BAB, can choose either str or Wis to hit, damage and spell attack forms, Damage Reduction along lines of Barb, flurry starts as is and becomes a lesser action every time you get an improvement (full - standerd - move) and I sprinkle in some high level beenies dependant on how the player chooses to flavour his particular monk.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-30, 05:19 AM
Monks focus on defence still doesn't measure up to the offense available to Save or Die casters or power attacking full BAB meleers, they just get targetted last because they don't matter (short of crazy item shenanigans).

I meant "exceedingly disproportionate" because the monster will have to hunt down the monk after the rest of the party is consumed. Which usually means following him using a teleport(or similar effect), hitting him 3 times instead of merely 2(due to his minor healing) and then going home to snack on his flesh. At higher levels, a monk who makes himself annoying enough can be useful by simply requiring that 1 extra attack to die. Subsequently, that one extra attack will not go toward the BSF or Glass Cannon Rogue(GCR).

mostlyharmful
2009-05-30, 05:38 AM
I meant "exceedingly disproportionate" because the monster will have to hunt down the monk after the rest of the party is consumed. Which usually means following him using a teleport(or similar effect), hitting him 3 times instead of merely 2(due to his minor healing) and then going home to snack on his flesh. At higher levels, a monk who makes himself annoying enough can be useful by simply requiring that 1 extra attack to die. Subsequently, that one extra attack will not go toward the BSF or Glass Cannon Rogue(GCR).

fair enough, not extra effort beyond what you'd use on any other character but any effort at all. I see ya now.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-05-30, 10:01 AM
Y'know, I was just going to pass this thread by since nothing is really gained by me joining the fray while my knowledge of optimization is second-hand (as in learned from others instead of discovered my self) and I suck at math.

But one particular comment caught my eye that I have to respond to. I am not a newbie to D&D 3.5, I've been playing for over 3-4 years now with a wide-range of characters. One of them was even a monk. In all that time, one of my friends has ONLY ever played a monk (With a one-level dip into Tattooed Monk so he never needs to sleep, drink, or eat again, I dunno he has something against basic bodily functions) and has yet to fail at most anything he tries.

Keep in mind, while my group is not terribly optimized that I myself (when I play) or my other friend always try to attain a certain level of optimization in case things go south and always help the other players make characters that are at least effective at what they want that character to do.

With that in mind, that player's monks have never died. Ever. Even when he should have. Like leaping off a 200 ft. tall tower (away from the wall nonetheless so slow fall didn't count) to make an aerial charge attack at a red dragon. Or various other situations where he SHOULD have died merely on basis of his class or actions alone. He not only survived them but made a significant contribution in battle or even won it. The Monk (since they always have the same feats and whatnot selected) has never failed to outshine druids, wizards, barbarians, paladins, an equal level warblade, or a Save or Die-built telepath with regularity. And not because the latter weren't optimized.

Yes, I know it defies all reason and some of you may comment that he's cheating (god knows I've thought it) but I've since confirmed that he does not cheat, he still doesn't know what the hell he is doing, but that his monks will never die unless the entire party is killed before him. (happened once) And yes, I know (in theory) the monk is bad, but he is still our small groups tank and never fails to have at least two 18's floating around (and not because of racial bonuses, he's a human).

Just pointing that out.

Narmoth
2009-05-30, 11:06 AM
I'd really like to see his build.
Then again, any class can in theory outshine any other class. There are just some classes that are more likely to do that than others

Jayabalard
2009-05-30, 11:20 AM
And as far as I'm aware,this isn't a correct phrase to use in this situation; just like Chronos was, you're talking about situation where you have next to no information about what actually went on.

If you have specifics from someone who actually knows what happened, then it makes sense to point out the mistakes that were made, but just making absolute declarations with no information makes you look rather foolish.


The only valid pro-monk argument is that monks cannot be killed without an exceedingly disproportionate amount of resources spent. There's the "I enjoy playing them" argument as well.

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 11:46 AM
this isn't a correct phrase to use in this situation; just like Chronos was, you're talking about situation where you have next to no information about what actually went on.

On the other hand, there is no justification whatsoever for dismissing out of hand the arguments of the people who smell a rat - a solar could easily make itself invulnerable to everything a 17th level monk can throw at it, so why didn't it in this one situation?

Shpadoinkle
2009-05-30, 11:53 AM
EDIT: How comes there is so much HATE against the monk? I can understand disliking him because he may be underpowered, and proving that with some math and examples. I can understand wanting to fix the monk, or replace him with different classes of the same flavor. But some people in this thread seem to downright relish beating the monk down with a vigor I cannot comprehend.

Before I answer that, let me ask you this...

What is the monk's role in the party?

Melee frontliner? No, he has a d8 HD and medium BAB. Fighters, paladins, and Righteous Might clerics are all better than him at that without even trying, and on top of that they can wear actual armor. Furthermore, monks are terrible for damage output, since Power Attack is a very limited option for them due to medium BAB and the fact that thier fists only get a 1 to1 ratio instead of a two-handed weapon's 2 to 1, which is MUCH better.

Scout, infilitrator, spy? Rangers and rogues can at least match if not outdo him there. The monk is faster than them, yes, but any scout worth being a scout shouldn't NEED to be able to move three times as fast as a normal person, because they shouldn't be seen.

Anti-caster? HELL no. That was debunked prety thoroughly already. CASTERS are the anti-caster.

Skillmonkey? Rogue does it better due to having more class skills and more skill points.

Caster of any sort? They don't get spells!

Now to answer your question: Pretty much the only thing a monk could conceivably be useful for is a lookout, due to having Listen and Spot as class skills and the fact that they're likely to have a good Wisdom score, but that's pretty much ALL they can do competently, and "full-time lookout" is a really boring character concept. "Hey guys, there's an invisible monster sneaking up on us! You go kill it while fumble around incompetently!" On top of that, by the time thier spot and listen skills would be very useful, the results can be duplicated with a low-level spell or two.

Optimystik
2009-05-30, 12:02 PM
this isn't a correct phrase to use in this situation; just like Chronos was, you're talking about situation where you have next to no information about what actually went on.

I was being facetious; mimicking your use of it to point out the absurdity of your rebuttal. It's sad that I had to go to the trouble of explaining that.


If you have specifics from someone who actually knows what happened, then it makes sense to point out the mistakes that were made, but just making absolute declarations with no information makes you look rather foolish.

I have plenty of information. A lvl 17 monk with a template took on a CR 26 Solar and won. That's more than enough information to conclude that the solar arrived to that battle on the short bus.

To quote Xykon from SoD: "There's a level of force against which no tactics can succeed." Wish and Heal as SLAs - not to mention Miracle - qualify. The only way a Solar can lose a fight like that is by forgetting half of its abilities, its ranged attacks and its flight.

So please, think before you post. You can ignore me now. I won't lose sleep, I promise.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-05-30, 12:25 PM
I'd really like to see his build.
Then again, any class can in theory outshine any other class. There are just some classes that are more likely to do that than others

Like I said, it's hardly complex. Monk X/Tattooed Monk 1, Grabs the Stunning fist and Deflect arrows bonus feats. Superior unarmed strike, Flying Kick, Wild Talent, Psionic Fist, Greater Psionic Fist, the Feat that allows you to change the damage type (between piercing, Bldg., slashing), and Run. Our group usually never goes a higher level for him to grab more feats but as long as he has ENOUGH feats, those ones will be there somewhere.

Jayabalard
2009-05-30, 12:37 PM
I was being facetious; mimicking your use of it to point out the absurdity of your rebuttal. It's sad that I had to go to the trouble of explaining that.I still don't see what you're referring to as "absurdity".


I have plenty of information.No, you know next to nothing about the situation.


On the other hand, there is no justification whatsoever for dismissing out of hand the arguments of the people who smell a rat Certainly... but just declaring that X is so with no explanation isn't really much of an argument.

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 12:54 PM
Like I said, it's hardly complex. Monk X/Tattooed Monk 1, Grabs the Stunning fist and Deflect arrows bonus feats. Superior unarmed strike, Flying Kick, Wild Talent, Psionic Fist, Greater Psionic Fist, the Feat that allows you to change the damage type (between piercing, Bldg., slashing), and Run. Our group usually never goes a higher level for him to grab more feats but as long as he has ENOUGH feats, those ones will be there somewhere.
Seven feats, huh. Even if he's Human, that's a lot of levels. Two at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 9th, one at 12th, one at 15th. He has to be level 15 before he can pull that stuff off. 9th with flaws.
I also cannot find Flying Kick. What book's it from?

Faleldir
2009-05-30, 12:59 PM
Complete Warrior p.99, requires Power Attack. (unless it's the 3.0 version, but I'm not looking that up) Not bad if you get Pounce or a pseudo-Pounce like Lion Tribe Warrior.

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 01:00 PM
Complete Warrior p.99, requires Power Attack. (unless it's the 3.0 version, but I'm not looking that up) Not bad if you get Pounce or a pseudo-Pounce like Lion Tribe Warrior.
So, with PA, that means he can't pull those feats off until 18th, or 12th with flaws. And it doesn't seem that he'll be all that effective with them.

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 01:18 PM
Certainly... but just declaring that X is so with no explanation isn't really much of an argument.

Well, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that the monk should have been curb-stomped in short order by this encounter - even the CR says so.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-30, 01:32 PM
On the other hand, there is no justification whatsoever for dismissing out of hand the arguments of the people who smell a rat - a solar could easily make itself invulnerable to everything a 17th level monk can throw at it, so why didn't it in this one situation?

Predacons gloat too much!

That is all.
The solar got over confident: after all, it is a monk. What is a monk going to do die on him?!

Over confidence kills more villians that any hero.

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 01:37 PM
Predacons gloat too much!

That is all.
The solar got over confident: after all, it is a monk. What is a monk going to do die on him?!

Over confidence kills more villians that any hero.

:smallamused:

I think always Good (any) creatures in D&D with its objective alignment system acquire a tendency to exhibit somewhat more humility than your average Evil Dark Scary villain of Doom, but I guess that could work.

Sir Homeslice
2009-05-30, 01:47 PM
Predacons gloat too much!

That is all.
The solar got over confident: after all, it is a monk. What is a monk going to do die on him?!

Over confidence kills more villians that any hero.

Unless the monk somehow mysteriously oneshotted the Solar, I'm pretty sure the Solar, at the point where he was at say, half his HP would be thinking 'Hey, THIS Monk isn't COMPLETELY useless.' To which point he'd fly up and then cast Heal on himself if he really wanted to, before raining longbow or magical death on the helpless Monk. Or just cast Wish and then cure the Monk of his terrible oxygen addiction on the spot instead of putzing around.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-30, 01:50 PM
Predacons gloat too much!

That is all.
The solar got over confident: after all, it is a monk. What is a monk going to do die on him?!

Over confidence kills more villians that any hero.

I think it's all about optimization level and playstyle, we have little info on the character but we do know the following:
he picked a half-ogre as race, a race I only know because I heard it was cheesy.
he used VOP, at first that seems like a bad idea, we ran the numbers and found out VOP sucked, but we do not account for individual play style(the mean reason being that it is impossible to so).

I know a lot of people who play under WBL or give out items semi-randomly, if he played in such a group then it is likely VOP gave him a bigger bonus then magic items gave the others.
Now we have assessed that the DM didn't really realise the full effect of the solar, this is probably because he doesn't know how to and neither do the other players, the monk player is simply the best optimizer. Although it's harder to optimize a monk it can be done, stacking size increases and INA and you 8d6(av28 dam) and a good strength(race) and good reach is a good combatant compared to a straight level sword and broad fighter who picks up the weapon focus line. if you allow for flurry in a grapple then it would make a good grappler too.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-05-30, 02:02 PM
Wow, so the Monk can only flurry on a full attack action? I've had a Monk in my campaign from 2005 to very recently, and I always let her player use his Spring Attack feat and flurry at the same time without ever thinking about it.

So for the three years we've been semi-regularly playing this game, pretty much everytime that PC attacked we broke the rules. XD

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-30, 02:12 PM
Wow, so the Monk can only flurry on a full attack action? I've had a Monk in my campaign from 2005 to very recently, and I always let her player use his Spring Attack feat and flurry at the same time without ever thinking about it.

So for the three years we've been semi-regularly playing this game, pretty much everytime that PC attacked we broke the rules. XD

And I suggest you keep doing it.

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-30, 02:13 PM
Flurry of rule breaking?

Yeah, the iterative attack thing is what really makes the monk kinda... not work.

You have a class that's based on moving fast, tumbling past opponents crouching tiger style, and very well set up to use mobility feats.... but in order to compensate for their low damage and low attack bonus they get more attacks... which they can only use when they stand still.

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 02:15 PM
Unless the monk somehow mysteriously oneshotted the Solar, I'm pretty sure the Solar, at the point where he was at say, half his HP would be thinking 'Hey, THIS Monk isn't COMPLETELY useless.' To which point he'd fly up and then cast Heal on himself if he really wanted to, before raining longbow or magical death on the helpless Monk. Or just cast Wish and then cure the Monk of his terrible oxygen addiction on the spot instead of putzing around.

Well, the monk does have a way to one-shot things - it just never gets used.

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 02:46 PM
Well, the monk does have a way to one-shot things - it just never gets used.
Quivering Palm? The one that the Solar has to roll a 3 or better to ignore? The one that the Monk has to hit with first, against AC 35+whatever buffs the Solar can put up? The one that will never be able to hit the flying Solar with a +2 bow and infinite Slaying arrows?

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 02:50 PM
Well, the point was that an overconfident solar could be taken down by the simple combination of natural 20 to hit, natural 1 to save.

And I don't see a restriction on Quivering Palm saying that it has to be done with a melee attack.

So really, all the monk player has to do is break out the loaded dice.

I'm agreeing with you - I'm just pointing out that the monk could conceivably one-shot the brain-dead solar in question.

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 02:54 PM
Well, the point was that an overconfident solar could be taken down by the simple combination of natural 20 to hit, natural 1 to save.

If it gets in melee, all the monk player has to do is break out the loaded dice.
But that's not the Monk's merit. That's:
-The DM playing a 23-INT Angel poorly
-A 400 in 1 chance
Neither one of those is a feature of the Monk character.

Hm, true, there is nothing in the description of Quivering Palm that requires it to be a melee attack other than, y'know, the NAME. But if whoever is reading it insists on being RAWtarded, try and hit the Solar with a piddling crossbow or sling shot before it casts Wind Wall and then kills you.

lesser_minion
2009-05-30, 02:56 PM
But that's not the Monk's merit. That's:
-The DM playing a 23-INT Angel poorly
-A 400 in 1 chance
Neither one of those is a feature of the Monk character.

Well, the DM did 'throw' a solar at the monk. Maybe using a Hulking Hurler build?

It might not have been poorly-played under those conditions, and it's no less conceivable than the angel deciding to commit suicide.

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 02:59 PM
Well, the DM did 'throw' a solar at the monk. Maybe using a Hulking Hurler build?
Perhaps some sort of Commoner Railgun.

The Angel is still in the air though, which means the Monk can't get to him.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-05-30, 03:58 PM
Seven feats, huh. Even if he's Human, that's a lot of levels. Two at 1st, one at 3rd, one at 6th, one at 9th, one at 12th, one at 15th. He has to be level 15 before he can pull that stuff off. 9th with flaws.
I also cannot find Flying Kick. What book's it from?

That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-30, 04:13 PM
That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

I approve of this conversation, in the general sense of enjoying the 'is he or isn't he a sneaky kung-fu munchkin' Mystery. I have nothing productive to add, however. Carry on. And keep us posted! ^_^

I love the concept of monks, personally. I'm hedging with the naysayers on the reality of 3.5 monks, though to be fair, the same can be said for pretty much anything in 3.5 without spells, to some degree. And some things WITH spells.

Here's hoping the 4th edition monk ends up proving more capable of actually contributing, eh? :)

Narmoth
2009-05-30, 04:14 PM
That's moreso a list of feat that's he's going to take during the course of his build, but that does bring to mind something odd. I don't think he actually looks at the prequisites for those feats, he asks what feats would be good then just...writes them down. Looks like I have to check his sheet now.

You get a lot of bonus exalted feats from vop. If he treats them as ordinary feats (in stead of the more sucky exalted only feats), he could pull it of

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-30, 05:18 PM
Granted, you become very much a one-trick pony, things do become increasingly resistant to mind-affecting abilities (like Stun)...

Stun isn't mind-affecting.

Gorbash
2009-05-30, 05:55 PM
You get a lot of bonus exalted feats from vop. If he treats them as ordinary feats (in stead of the more sucky exalted only feats), he could pull it of

Then you're changing the mechanics of the game, that's not the same... You might as well say, he could pull it if Solar was stunned, gagged, tied, unconcious, disabled and blind. Fact remains that a ECL 19 (I think?) character managed to kill a CR 26 creature (meaning it should be a challenge for character of ECL 24-26), and it's a monk even. I'm not sure even a Wizard or CoDzilla could pull it off.

How come nobody found it odd that an Exalted monk was fighting a Solar?

Jayabalard
2009-05-30, 06:00 PM
Well, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that the monk should have been curb-stomped in short order by this encounter - even the CR says so."Should have" is true only based on certain assumptions.


Then you're changing the mechanics of the gameHe did say that he had done that; he gave a couple specific examples but there's no reason to assume those were the only house rules.

Gorbash
2009-05-30, 06:24 PM
He did say that he had done that; he gave a couple specific examples but there's no reason to assume those were the only house rules

Then his example, in this topic, is not valid, since that's not longer a Monk, that's something that belongs in the Homebrew discussion.

That's the same if somebody entered a debate on Batman wizards with a post:


Pffft, Wizards suck, there's a wizard in my party who regularely gets beaten to a pulp by house cats and commoners!

Oh did I mention that Wizards in our campaign can cast only Cantrips?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-30, 07:10 PM
To be brutally honest? Yes. A gold dragon monk with VoP? First, lets ignore the 'gold dragon' part since dragons cannot be played in any reasonable campaign. Monk with VoP. This means that the monk loses out on items which can shore up his vast weaknesses(magic cloaks, bracers of armor, many ways to gain flight, etc..) and gains weak bonuses to make up for it. So not only do you have a mechanically ineffective class, you also have a mechanically punitive feat applied to a mechanically ineffective class. A basic fighter 20 is still more effective, and the gulf is only made worse by including VoP. (A)



You actually are on that part. But it's an honest mistake since you underestimated how broken Shapechange can be. Shapechange rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm). Specifically:



Bolding mine. A druid Shapechanges into a dragon. He's now an Adult dragon(at CL20) with all the benefits and still retains his spellcasting. Adding in Natural Spell he can still cast in his dragon form. Straight up druid 20 gets all the benefits of Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10, except he also has Druid 20 casting and can share his Shapechange with his animal companion(getting -2- dragons for the price of one!). (B)

A. Do you have the BoED? VoP gives various AC bonuses, makes all your attacks magical (solving one monk problem), and does other things magic items can duplicate. Plus, it grants a zillion exalted feats-as many exalted feats as a fighter gets his bonus feats. Sure, most exalted feats ain't so great, but some are useful. Care to give a ravage to people you TOUCH? Deal extra damage to ANY evil creature you hit? You can take TWO of the feats (one made for natural weapons, one for manufactured ones) and get the damage TWICE. Plus, the monk doesn't need anything more than the feat allows.

B.
Pros of Wild Shape in aforementioned build v. Level 20 shapechange:
It lasts, effectivly, all day
If you take Natural Spell, you can cast spells
You gain Warshaper benifets (like fast healing, +4 Str and Con, extra reach, and some I forgot)
It's not a spell, it's supernatural; thus, it can't be dispelled, or disspelled, and won't provoke AoOs (assuming you have to use it in combat. Not likely.)
Cons:
You can't be constructs or undead (and maybe outsider, too)
You can't be collosal without a feat
You don't get supernatural abilities of the target

Also, nice comments to everyone! I'll have to read them if I have time!

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 08:23 PM
"Should have" is true only based on certain assumptions.
Everything is "based on certain assumptions". It's how, y'know, science works. Without "certain assumptions", you would not be typing on your computer right now.

And there do not have to be very many "assumptions" regarding the Solar. Every single Solar can cast as a Cleric. Every single Solar has the same weapons and abilities. Every single Solar has incredible INT. Every single Solar can fly. If you have removed these things, it is not really a Solar. The only assumptions made here is for the Solar to act as its INT and abilities would dictate, instead of landing and then doing nothing.

Indeed, "certain assumptions" are what needs to be made for the Monk to have a chance of winning: incredible rolls, homebrew, DM fiat, cheating...

Gorbash
2009-05-30, 08:35 PM
makes all your attacks magical (solving one monk problem)

Monks already get that ability at lvl 4.


and does other things magic items can duplicate

Really? Does it give you Flight? Burrow? Swim? Climb? Invisibility? See invisibility? Aligned attacks? Miss chance? Skill bonuses?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-30, 08:53 PM
at 20th level, you can slow fall any distance. a level 1 wizard can cast feather fall and get the same effect. almost every other ability is like that.

The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

Flickerdart
2009-05-30, 08:58 PM
The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?
Well, yes, if the Wizard starts in Melee range, unbuffed and naked. And even then he can make a 5ft step away and cast any number of spells that make the Monk no longer a problem, such as Grease, Summon Monster or, if you're willing to gamble on Will, Sleep or Colour Spray. And that's just Core.

Woot Spitum
2009-05-30, 09:02 PM
The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?You assume a) the monk starts out next to the wizard, b) the monk can reach the wizard in one turn, c) the wizard is unable to tumble out of reach, d) the monk goes first, or e) some combination of the above. The wizard could just as easily take out the monk with sleep or color spray before the monk can do anything. Honestly, the encounter will come down to who rolls better. Hardly as one-sided as you make it out to be.

Jayabalard
2009-05-30, 09:05 PM
Indeed, "certain assumptions" are what needs to be made for the Monk to have a chance of winning: incredible rolls, homebrew, DM fiat, cheating...No assumptions have to be made for the monk to win; that's a known fact.

Of the things you list, the only one that's absolutely necessary is homebrew and we know that, at least in part, that's the case. It's possible that there are other factors, but until/unless he shares those with us we can't do anything but speculate.


Then his example, in this topic, is not valid, since that's not longer a Monk, that's something that belongs in the Homebrew discussion.To me it's just as valid as someone quoting the RAW as if it was engraved on stone tablets. Real world examples (as in, how people actually play the game, whether it's by RAW or so heavily homebrewed it's debatable whether it's still D&D), leads to much more interesting discussions.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-30, 09:18 PM
Lets look at these "facts" honestly.
So far, so good.



Ok. It's unarmed damage at level 20 is 2d10+STR. Assuming it has a STR of 26, that makes it 2d10+8. An average of 19.

A horned devil(CR 16, so a Monk should -reasonably- be able to solo it) has DR 10/Silver and Good. Meaning a monk does 9 damage per punch if he hits without items. The horned devil however does 2d6+15 for an average of 21 per hit, all of which bypasses the monk's DR/Magic. The monk deal damage without weapons: [Failed]
Alright...


The Monk can heal himself? At level 20, for 40 HP. So he can heal away 2 of the hits of the above horned devil. Is it useful? No. But the monk can do it so I'll give you that. [Barely]

The Monk can ignore spells, poisons and diseases. While the Monk can ignore poisons of all kinds, it cannot ignore magical diseases. Comparing it to the aforementioned Horned Devil, the Horned Devil must roll a 15 to bypass the Monk's SR 30. Against a CR 16 creature, the monk can ignore it's 6 damage spells. Naturally this ignores the fact that the Horned Devil is a melee fighter. Unfortunately for the monk, poison sucks and the only good diseases are magical. [Barely]
More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful. Also, poison can be delibating. It can KILL you if you're unlucky. Being immune to it removes one facet of "death from unluckiness". The disease part, though, is kinda true.


The Monk can talk to anybody. This is true, but so can anyone able to cast or access the tongues spell. [Useless]
But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.


The Monk can turn into a Ghost. Not quite accurate. Turning into a Ghost would actually make the monk moderately useful. No, instead the monk can turn Ethereal. A melee fighter with the ability to stop affecting the material plane? [Hilariously Useless]
Useless in combat? Yes. So is the ghost template, long-distance teleportation, astral projection, resurection, etc. So they all must suck!


The Monk can fall without injury. Not quite accurate either. The monk can fall as long as he is within touch range of a wall without injury. This is sort of like Feather Fall, but significantly less useful. Meanwhile, the fighter just plain doesn't care since falling only deals a maximum of 20d6 damage ever. [Useless]
Finally, something not too false.


The Monk can teleport a little. A little is right as the monk can only use Dimension Door once a day for a maximum of 800 feet at level 20. This might be useful if you're running away from someone, but if you're running away then you've failed to begin with. [Failed]
Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there? And slow fall your way down! Or, use it against fast bad guys! Geez, it's TELEPORTATION. How useless can it be?
Or is it "useless" in combat and thus useless? Oh, wait, it does have combat uses, one described above.


This means a monk has to spend 36,000 gold four times(CON, STR, DEX and WIS for a total of 128,000) to get the same numbers as a fighter wearing +5 full plate and +STR/CON items(64,000+26,000=90,000). And even then, the monk is still behind on attack bonus(+3 vs +8) and AC(+6 vs +13). The monk spends less money for better stats? [Failed]
True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.


You're right. The monk has really high base saves. However, when the Fighter is rolling +12 with a +7 CON modifier versus the Monk's +12 with a +5 CON modifier.. Well, he still doesn't stack up. Sure, the monk has no weakness, but he also has no strength. [Barely]
Said fighter is useless with Will and possibly Reflex saves.



Hmm. Assuming he's trying to steal from a 20th level fighter, you'd be almost right. Except the fighter's armor can't be taken off without spending 10 minutes and he's certainly going to notice that. Disarming him is an attack that will fail(your light weapons against his two-handed? Ha. That's an effective -8 penalty right there) and tell the fighter you're there. Over all, attempting to steal his stuff will just get steel pointy bits put into the monk's soft fleshy bits. [Failed]



2d10+30? Where's a +30 coming from? Assuming he's got maxed out strength(32 or so), power attack and shock trooper.. That's +26 with a full PA for 15. Guess what. Readied actions. That monk charging in for 2d10+26 is gonna get counter-charged by a fighter for 2d6+41(using 32 STR and PAing for merely 15). On top of that, when the monk tries to move away he gets AoO'd for his trouble for another 2d6+41. The monk has badassery that no class can match? [Failed]
Not too bad...


And all of that assumes a -fighter- of 20th level. A more useful melee fighter like a Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, Barbarian, Knight, or even a Swashbuckling Rogue will do the exact same thing but significantly more stylishly.
And with lower BAB, Str, etc.

Also:



No, that's a Ninja(complete adventurer).
Why?

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-30, 09:20 PM
A bunch of stuff about VoP.

Gorbash covered this and you ignored it.


It lasts, effectivly, all day

20 * 10 = 200 = 3 hours. Metamagic Rod, Extend for 6 hours. 2 castings lasts you the entire adventuring day.


If you take Natural Spell, you can cast spells

As a 5th level Druid. Congrats, you get to cast crappy spells that a level 20 threat will just ignore or save against. Conversely, Shapechange lets you retain your spells anyway since they're not an (Su) ability.


You gain Warshaper benifets (like fast healing, +4 Str and Con, extra reach, and some I forgot)

Or I could shapechange into a Dragon. Oh, look at that. I have crazy reach, a -fear aura-, stupendous CON and STR and I could care less about fast healing. On top of that, I regain a full night's rest of HP everytime I change forms. This is effectively Fast Healing 20 since you can change forms once a round as a free action.


It's not a spell, it's supernatural; thus, it can't be dispelled, or disspelled, and won't provoke AoOs (assuming you have to use it in combat. Not likely.)

For a significantly lower benefit? Plus, if all else fails you just cast Shapechange again.

In the end the ultimate benefit of Shapechange? You can change into anything. You are in no way limited to what you can become. Shapechange into an Iron Golem. Watch as other people suck on your immunity to magic while you summon Shamblers or an Elder Elemental to back you up.

End result: Shapechange, just like all other forms of magic, super-trumps non-magical melee.


More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful.

Show me a CR 16 that can't deal 40 HP in one or two attacks. Not just spells, but attacks. You'll see how wrong this statement is.


Also, poison can be delibating.

No, it can't. No poison scales well enough to be useful at level 20.


Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.

Scroll. This entire class feature just became utterly worthless.


Useless in combat? Yes. So is the ghost template, long-distance teleportation, astral projection, resurection, etc. So they all must suck!

Resurrection actually is useless. Astral Projection can be used in combat and Greater Teleport has valid non-combat transportation uses. What can etherealness do? It lets you stop attacking the material plane. Congrats, you get a class feature which lets you suck for 1 round/level.


Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there?

Overland Flight. Hour/level.


And slow fall your way down! Or, use it against fast bad guys! Geez, it's TELEPORTATION. How useless can it be?

1 day. So incredibly useless.


True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.

Yes. Double move into melee range, trip when he triggers an AoO trying to move away.


Said fighter is useless with Will and possibly Reflex saves.

Mind Blank and Ref Saves means less HP, which is something the fighter has in spades.


And with lower BAB, Str, etc.

You have no idea what any of those classes even are, do you? Every single one is a primary meleer with full BAB and beats the pants off a monk without even trying.


Why?

Ninjas can turn invisible, ethereal, teleport just like the monk except they do it more than once a day -and- deal more damage on average. If I'm playing a solo game, I'd take a ninja over a monk any day of the week.

Woot Spitum
2009-05-30, 09:46 PM
But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not. And, even if you need the critter to have a laguage, "constantly" is longer than any apell duration. Plus, you need to know you need the spell ahead of time.You do realize that without a good charisma bonus, or enough skill points to invest that talking to people isn't going to be your strong point? Additionally, talking with trees requires the speak with plants spell, not tongues, since trees can't speak under ordinary circumstances. Of course, this isn't that big of a deal considering speaking with something that is blind, deaf, has no sense of smell, touch, or taste, and an intelligence score of 0 is not perehaps the most useful ability in the game.


True, but can the fighter catch up with a fleeing, 40-foot speed BBEG? Everyone has pros and cons.He doesn't need to if he just shoots him to death. Even if the BBEG gets 20 feet further away every roundif the fighter follows him, 40 feet if he doesn't, a longbow has a range of 100 feet. And a spellcaster with various ranged options in addition to things like overland flight beats them both in this department in any event. Of course, any BBEG worth his salt should be using teleport without error to escape, so you'll have to rely on a caster with the teleport anchor spell to stop him in any case.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-30, 09:57 PM
The wizard goes 60 feet, max. Sure, a 1st-level monk can't do that, but a 1st-level monk can kick a 1st-level wizard's butt in melee.

Wizard: Magic Mis-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Acis spla-
Monk: AoO
Wizard: Mage ar-
Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de grace.

Oh, and what's with the poor grammar?

there's this nifty little rule called Defensive Casting. Might want to go check it out - the DC for a 1st level spell is 16, a 1st-level Wizard with Con 14 can succeed on a 9.

Gorbash
2009-05-30, 10:09 PM
But, at will...and, if I recall, with any living creature. If your DM allows the cheese and I'm remembering right, you can talk with TREES. Useless? I think not.

What can a TREE tell you? What it saw? What it heard? I'm sure it's useful if you're wondering how's the earth these days.

Also, most living creatures have a language. Most of them also have quite a few. Chances are, one of 4-6 party members will have it (those high-int characters tend to to that. Or bards who have ti as a class skill. Or you know they have a tongues spell).

But yeah... If you encounter a problem so impossible to solve through common sense, divinations, communes that only a nearby shrub can help you... Monks win. Bravo.


Alright. You sorta got us there. But why waste a fly spell or whatnot to pull a lever if you can teleport up there?

Mage Hand? You know the type that can be used at will with an item that costs 800 gold?


More than one high-level character/monster would have found an extra 40 hp of healing useful.

Somewhat true, but you just spent a standard action on that, and the big bad monster is standing next to you. At best, you bought yourself an extra round.


Gorbash covered this and you ignored it.

Yes, please elaborate how will you defeat the most common obstacle of mid to high lvls - Flight. And the rest, while you're at it.

Arkaim
2009-05-30, 10:28 PM
Might a monk be useful against a BBEG that spams Mage's Disjunction and has a few cohorts just to counterspell the casters? Or is there a class better able to handle that sort of situation?

Worira
2009-05-30, 10:31 PM
You have no idea what any of those classes even are, do you? Every single one is a primary meleer with full BAB and beats the pants off a monk without even trying.


Nitpick: Swordsage has 3/4 BAB, and depending on what was meant by "Swashbuckling Rogue", that has somewhere between 3/4 and full.

Also, I'd just like to point out that ghosts are awesome in combat.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-30, 10:39 PM
Nitpick: Swordsage has 3/4 BAB, and depending on what was meant by "Swashbuckling Rogue", that has somewhere between 3/4 and full.

Oh ya. I forgot Swordsage is only 3/4th BAB. And they're still better monks than monks. As for a swashbuckling rogue, I meant a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17. That's close enough to full BAB that it may as well be.


Also, I'd just like to point out that ghosts are awesome in combat.

Of course, but that's because they can still affect the material world. A monk on the other hand uses his class feature to cease being a melee fighter.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 05:40 AM
Gorbash covered this and you ignored it.
That's because I posted it before I vould read the whole thread. Sorry, you guys posted fast.




20 * 10 = 200 = 3 hours. Metamagic Rod, Extend for 6 hours. 2 castings lasts you the entire adventuring day.
By using 2 spells. And a magic item.



As a 5th level Druid. Congrats, you get to cast crappy spells that a level 20 threat will just ignore or save against.(A) Conversely, Shapechange lets you retain your spells anyway since they're not an (Su) ability.(B)
A. True;B. I thought polymorph, on which shapechange is based, prevents you from casting spells; C. We're getting off topic. Post a new thread and PM me a link.


Or I could shapechange into a Dragon. Oh, look at that. I have crazy reach, a -fear aura-, stupendous CON and STR and I could care less about fast healing. On top of that, I regain a full night's rest of HP everytime I change forms. This is effectively Fast Healing 20 since you can change forms once a round as a free action.
Fine


For a significantly lower benefit? Plus, if all else fails you just cast Shapechange again.
By usin ganother 9th-level slot.


In the end the ultimate benefit of Shapechange? You can change into anything. You are in no way limited to what you can become. Shapechange into an Iron Golem. Watch as other people suck on your immunity to magic while you summon Shamblers or an Elder Elemental to back you up.
With my build, your HD limit is only 5 behind a 20th-level shapechange, and the only creature types you can't turn into are construct, undead, and maybe outsider.


End result: Shapechange, just like all other forms of magic, super-trumps non-magical melee.
Wild Shape is supernatural, thus a type of magic. :smallconfused:


Show me a CR 16 that can't deal 40 HP in one or two attacks. Not just spells, but attacks. You'll see how wrong this statement is.
If you last a couple extra rounds in melee, you help your pals by dealing a couple rounds' worth of damage.


No, it can't. No poison scales well enough to be useful at level 20.
Creatures can have poisonous stings, teeth, etc. These poisons have DC based on HD and Con modifier, both of which usually increase when CR does. Immunity to poison is not limited to



Scroll. This entire class feature just became utterly worthless.
Then see my comments on that part.


Resurrection actually is useless. Astral Projection can be used in combat and Greater Teleport has valid non-combat transportation uses. What can etherealness do? It lets you stop attacking the material plane. Congrats, you get a class feature which lets you suck for 1 round/level.
How can Astral Projection help in combat, hmm? By letting you GET AWAY, like being ETHEREAL might let you do?:smallamused:
Also, my point was, if it's not useful in combat, it might be useful elsewhere. You know you've got a good point when an opponent helps prove it.


Overland Flight. Hour/level.
Also average. Not as useful if you can't hover, quickly climb, go straight up, etc. And, no, Xykon hovering with Overland Flight doesn't count.


1 day. So incredibly useless.
I have a gaming group that has to rest every few fights, and two players were secondary healers! (Granted, they have no cleric/druid, which may skew the results.) Don't you think that that kind of situation, you might regain it a lot? Or is that situation so bizzare that it shouldn't count?


Yes. Double move into melee range, trip when he triggers an AoO trying to move away.
A fleeing ANYTHING would usually take a double move. 80 ft. Your speed? Probably 20 or less. You'd be left 40 ft behind each round. Sad.


Mind Blank and Ref Saves means less HP, which is something the fighter has in spades.
Why waste the HP? Also, how'd the fighter get Mind Blanked? By the wizard/cleric casting it on him? Do these guys save spell slots for healing and blasting? Finally, Mind Blank only protects against mind-affecting effects. There are other things Will saves are for.

[/QUOTE]You have no idea what any of those classes even are, do you? Every single one is a primary meleer with full BAB and beats the pants off a monk without even trying. [/QUOTE]
I do, I just haven't read them. Like the zillions of posts. I bet that by the time I'm done, a couple more dozen posts will have flowed in. Please, give me a chance to read and reply!
But I digress.


Ninjas can turn invisible, ethereal, teleport just like the monk except they do it more than once a day -and- deal more damage on average. If I'm playing a solo game, I'd take a ninja over a monk any day of the week.

Ah. Sorry.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 05:49 AM
You do realize that without a good charisma bonus, or enough skill points to invest that talking to people isn't going to be your strong point? (A) Additionally, talking with trees requires the speak with plants spell, not tongues, since trees can't speak under ordinary circumstances. (B) Of course, this isn't that big of a deal considering speaking with something that is blind, deaf, has no sense of smell, touch, or taste, and an intelligence score of 0 is not perehaps the most useful ability in the game. (C)
A: So? If the wizard didn't expect a gnoll raiding party parley or whatever, and the bard doesn't know Gnoll, use the only guy who can talk to him. Desperate times=desperate measures. That's why wizards have weapons. For when they're fighting in melee. (With a monk. :smalltongue:) B: Where does it say, "This ability functions as tounges" in the ability description? C: So? A tree can tell you anything a Speak With Plants spell says it can. Also, Int -, not 0.


He doesn't need to if he just shoots him to death. Even if the BBEG gets 20 feet further away every roundif the fighter follows him, 40 feet if he doesn't, a longbow has a range of 100 feet. And a spellcaster with various ranged options in addition to things like overland flight beats them both in this department in any event. Of course, any BBEG worth his salt should be using teleport without error to escape, so you'll have to rely on a caster with the teleport anchor spell to stop him in any case.
40 ft, or 80 if he doesn't. I do belive that many fighter's bows are not as good as their swords. And the shots just get harder and harder. Meanwhile, Mr. Monk is catching up to BBEG and using his signature weapon. But, yeah, with access to the right magic, escape is a pushover for BBEG.

I'm replying to these one-at-a-time to remember what I wanted to post about.

Leon
2009-05-31, 06:08 AM
...why do people think the monk is underpowered? The monk's my favorite class! i'm forced to assume that either, A.) people on this board and in other places are crazy, B.) someone had a bad experience with a monk and now everyone agrees with him/her, or C.) there's something I missed about the monk.
Will someone please explain?

Don't let them get you down or change your mind on what your favored class is - if it works for you that's the main thing



The much debated "uselessness" of certain classes various hugely depending on the gaming style and composition of groups out there.

Quoted for Truth

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 06:10 AM
Well, yes, if the Wizard starts in Melee range, unbuffed and naked. And even then he can make a 5ft step away and cast any number of spells that make the Monk no longer a problem, such as Grease, Summon Monster or, if you're willing to gamble on Will, Sleep or Colour Spray. And that's just Core.

Grease? 1-round delay, max.
Summon Monster? 1-turn wimp.
But, yeah, escape can help. If you ignore that the monk is as fast as the wizard and doesn't need to use an action to be useful, the wizard might win. I mean, even with Str 12, the monk as averaging 4 points of damage per attack. Unless he's small. Anyways, bye-bye wizard in 2 attacks!

lesser_minion
2009-05-31, 06:11 AM
40 ft, or 80 if he doesn't. I do belive that many fighter's bows are not as good as their swords. And the shots just get harder and harder. Meanwhile, Mr. Monk is catching up to BBEG and using his signature weapon. But, yeah, with access to the right magic, escape is a pushover for BBEG.

There's actually a pretty basic melee trip build that can use dimension door every d4 rounds at a higher caster level than Abundant Step. That's always an option.

As for 'monk vs. wizard in melee' - you picked some of the weakest spells to use, and neglected both 5ft-step and defensive casting as ways around the AoO. It is nowhere near as one-sided as you make it sound.

The fight would probably be pretty even, actually. The wizard can easily get out of melee range, has a decent chance of hampering the monk enough that it no longer poses much of a threat, then smacks it pretty hard around the face with a quarterstaff.

And at 1st level? Move out of range, put an arrow or a crossbow bolt between the monk's eyes. With the same base attack bonus, the wizard's likely higher AC, and the wizard's high dexterity score, there is actually something to be said for that strategy.

However, monks are good up to maybe around 6th level - so are basically all other acknowledged weak classes. The game has always been best balanced at low levels - older editions actually gave fighters tonnes of extra levels on a wizard with equal XP.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 06:12 AM
You assume a) the monk starts out next to the wizard, b) the monk can reach the wizard in one turn, c) the wizard is unable to tumble out of reach, d) the monk goes first, or e) some combination of the above. The wizard could just as easily take out the monk with sleep or color spray before the monk can do anything. Honestly, the encounter will come down to who rolls better. Hardly as one-sided as you make it out to be.

A. I clearly said "in melee". Even then, a few acid splashes and magic missiles won't make much difference. Once Wizzo's in melee range, he can't escape.
B. Read post above this.

huttj509
2009-05-31, 06:26 AM
The #1 issue with monks is this:

They look MUCH more effective than they really are.

If you like the monk, like the flavor, and realize the actuality of some things, there is no problem with playing a monk.

When you reach the practical issues such as save DCs for stunning fist not being high enough unless you focus on it to the exclusion of other things, the monk's mobility features conflicting with the assumption of full attacks to counter the lower BAB, and other such issues, the issue with the monk is that what initially seemed really cool (such that some DMs think it is overpowered and too effective), doesn't really work.

While most other classes get to do neater and neater things as they level (well ok, caster classes), the monk gets to hit the wall of "not quite" more often. A monk in the hands of someone who knows what it actually is, knows the weaknesses, and actively works to overcome them, or through roleplaying render them less important (if you use tongue of earth and moon to avoid combats that do not favor the monk, for example), can still run with a party well, as long as everyone is not trying to trick out their own characters as best they can.

At the same level of optimisization, the monk sadly falls well behind most other classes eventually, which is unfortunate when it takes the player by surprise. This is why I feel the deceptive nature of the monk class is the primary issue with it.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 06:29 AM
There's actually a pretty basic melee trip build that can use dimension door every d4 rounds at a higher caster level than Abundant Step. That's always an option. (A)

As for 'monk vs. wizard in melee' - you picked some of the weakest spells to use, and neglected both 5ft-step and defensive casting as ways around the AoO. It is nowhere near as one-sided as you make it. (B)

However, monks are good up to maybe around 6th level - so are basically all other acknowledged weak classes. The game has always been best balanced at low levels - older editions actually gave fighters tonnes of extra levels on a wizard with equal XP. (C)

A: If I recall, only on some planes. If you're on Limbo, great.
B: I chose those spells because I clearly stated it is a 1st-level on 1st-level battle. Other than that, Mr. Monk takes down 1st-level V unless 1-V moves away as quickly as possible...but the monk can follow hir as fast. (And don't ask about 1-V. Vaarsivus probably had bad experiences with monks.)
C:Thanks.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 06:40 AM
What can a TREE tell you? What it saw? What it heard? I'm sure it's useful if you're wondering how's the earth these days.
See speak with plants. I hope I don't have to say it again.


Also, most living creatures have a language. Most of them also have quite a few. Chances are, one of 4-6 party members will have it (those high-int characters tend to to that. Or bards who have ti as a class skill. Or you know they have a tongues spell).
True...


But yeah... If you encounter a problem so impossible to solve through common sense, divinations, communes that only a nearby shrub can help you... Monks win. Bravo.
Divinations usually don't work as well if you know less.


Mage Hand? You know the type that can be used at will with an item that costs 800 gold?
You need a 5-lb or less lever, and for said lever to be in mage hand reach.



Somewhat true, but you just spent a standard action on that, and the big bad monster is standing next to you. At best, you bought yourself an extra round.
Aomewhere on this board, one of my players posted about an ogre who died in two rounds. From a bard. He would have liked an extra round. The ogre, I mean.
Also, 1 more round=1+ more chance(s) to get a crit.


Yes, please elaborate how will you defeat the most common obstacle of mid to high lvls - Flight. And the rest, while you're at it.
Magic items. Sure, the monk's budget is low. Or, Mr(s). Wizard can cast fly. What moronic adventurer single-classes and single-adventures?

Also: Monk fix without a new monk class!

Ki Fists (Monk)
Your fists are infused with ki.
Prerequisites: Monk 1+, Wis 13
Benifet: If your Wisdom is higher than your Strength, use Wisdom for your unarmed attack and damage.

Dragon Claw (Monk)
You have mastered the Dragon Claw, a 3-fingered strike that can use your strength to help damage your opponent more.
Prerequisites: Monk 3+, Str 13, Wis 15
Benifet: Add 1/2 of your Strength modifier to your unarmed strike damage.

Swift Flurry (Monk)
Yourflurryisfasterthanwhatthissentencewouldsoundli keifyousaiditoutloud.
Prerquisites: Flurry of Blows, Dex 13
Benifet: Your flurry of blows is a standard action. You may use it at the end of a charge.

Exalted Astetic (Monk, Exalted)
You are a mighty fighter when unarmed, even more so than than most monks are.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, VoP, Monk 2+
Benifet: You may take Monk feats with VoP as if they were exalted feats.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-31, 06:42 AM
A: If I recall, only on some planes. If you're on Limbo, great.

Assuming this is Horizon Walker, nope. The Terrain and Planar Mastery benefits apply everywhere. The idea is that you bring your experience with the terrain or plane with you and apply it elsewhere. The SRD description doesn't even mention Limbo.


Terrain Mastery: At each level, the Horizon Walker adds a new terrain environment to their repertoire from those given below. Terrain mastery gives a horizon walker a bonus on checks involving a skill useful in that terrain, or some other appropriate benefit. A horizon walker also knows how to fight dangerous creatures typically found in that terrain, gaining a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against creatures with that terrain mentioned in the Environment entry of their descriptions. The horizon walker only gains the bonus if the creature description specifically lists the terrain type.

Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go. They retain their terrain mastery bonuses on skill checks, attack rolls, and damage rolls whether they’re actually in the relevant terrain or not.

Planar Terrain Mastery: Planar terrain mastery functions just like terrain mastery, except that the horizon walker can choose one of the planar categories at each level. The horizon walker can take a non-planar terrain type instead, if she wishes.

lesser_minion
2009-05-31, 06:44 AM
Quick FYI:


Horizon walkers take their terrain mastery with them wherever they go.

All of the abilities are worded the same way - "you have a +4 competence bonus", "you gain the spell-like ability", "you gain 60ft-darkvision", "you gain tremorsense", and so on. None of those abilities have any kind of qualifier - just the +1 to attack and damage rolls (limited to creatures explicitly native to that terrain).

The only time it mentions having to be in the relevant terrain is the sentence I quoted. Which is pretty clear that you don't.

Even Aligned works - you are utterly immune to Blasphemy, Dispel Alignment, Holy Word and Holy Smite. You also suffer no penalties for entering a plane with an opposed dominant alignment.

EDIT - Damned ninjas. You're right though, it is horizon walker.

Most of the abilities actually make no sense being tied to particular planes or terrains.

Immune to fatigue provided one is in a desert ?

Darkvision only while underground ?

Tremorsense only in cavernous planes ?

Able to stop an entire plane of existence from reacting to your presence - but not a mere spell ?

Nohwl
2009-05-31, 06:54 AM
A: If I recall, only on some planes. If you're on Limbo, great.
B: I chose those spells because I clearly stated it is a 1st-level on 1st-level battle. Other than that, Mr. Monk takes down 1st-level V unless 1-V moves away as quickly as possible...but the monk can follow hir as fast. (And don't ask about 1-V. Vaarsivus probably had bad experiences with monks.)
C:Thanks.

color spray is also a 1st level spell. so is sleep. both are much more effective than magic missile.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-31, 07:02 AM
Damned ninjas

And there's only one of me. Be afraid! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu) (Also, I linked TV Tropes. I don't just kill you, I take your life away. ... er...)

Gorbash
2009-05-31, 07:49 AM
Magic items. Sure, the monk's budget is low.

I was referring to VoP Monk.


Also average. Not as useful if you can't hover, quickly climb, etc. And, no, Xykon hovering with Overland Flight doesn't count.

Why is that such a big problem? You just have to move 20 ft each round.

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-31, 08:28 AM
A. I clearly said "in melee". Even then, a few acid splashes and magic missiles won't make much difference. Once Wizzo's in melee range, he can't escape.

I'm a little confused here. Are you suggesting that the spellcasting wizard is inferior because it simply cant fight in melee

or

Are you forgetting that unless the wizard starts the fight off in a corner he can simply 5 foot step away from the monk and cast to his hearts content? He's not in the least bit "trapped" by the monks presence. Even if he can't 5 foot step he still has concentration.

Nohwl
2009-05-31, 08:42 AM
or the wizard could use abrupt jaunt.

ChaosDefender24
2009-05-31, 08:59 AM
some kind of DR overcoming, and some way to enchant his fists

Necklace of natural weapons with the transmuting enchantment...

I'm going to advocate the stunning fist monk to see what happens. I know that if anyone or anything is immune to stunning fist, the monk is done for, but...
still, until you run up against those guys, I think it might be the monk's best shot.

If you focus on this, your MAD goes down considerably IMO. If you take Intuitive Strike (BoED), Wisdom becomes your to-hit. Wisdom now determines your AC, to-hit, and save DC on your stun-gun. This means Dex and even Strength can take a hit, since damage ain't your thing.
Then you take the feats. Ability Focus helps with the Save DC (which I don't really think is that bad if you crank Wis), Fist of the Pharaoh gives you an AoE stun, extra stunning fist is good for long days, there's Weakening Touch (CW) that gives a -6 penalty to strength as a touch attack, nooo save.

I know it ain't perfect. I know that a certain second-level spell is far more devastating than this entire build. I know that I might as well play a gravetouched ghoul and run around paralyzing things with my claws and bite, 3 times per round, unlimited times per day.

But this strategy is viable, right?

...Right?!

I love this thread

Faleldir
2009-05-31, 09:10 AM
Dragon Claw (Monk)
You have mastered the Dragon Claw, a 3-fingered strike that can use your strength to help damage your opponent more.
Prerequisites: Monk 3+, Str 13, Wis 15
Benifet: Add 1/2 of your Strength modifier to your unarmed strike damage.
With the Monk's MAD, that can't possibly be more than +2 to damage. Not worth a feat.


Exalted Astetic (Monk, Exalted)
You are a mighty fighter when unarmed, even more so than than most monks are.
Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, VoP, Monk 2+
Benifet: You may take Monk feats with VoP as if they were exalted feats.
You do realize you need Sacred Vow for VoP, right? That's three feats right there, and all you have is passive bonuses, not options.
Also, the list of Monk feats is very limited and none of them solve the inherent problems of VoP.

darkblust
2009-05-31, 09:36 AM
monks tend to be pretty weak.their fun to play,and easy to roleplay,but they are quite insubstantial compared to fighters as a front line melee combatant.good for an npc though:smallsmile:

Goatman_Ted
2009-05-31, 11:21 AM
On Monks:
Or Why I Hate Bruce Lee

He tempted me from a distance.
When I saw him, I licked my lips.
I eyed him up and down.
But when he came close I saw
The cracks, the pimples, the pores.

...

When you get to know Bruce Lee, you realize
He's too reclusive, too scholastic, to have any friends.
He gets into many classes,
But at parties he stands awkward and alone.

He gets drunk some nights and asks us
What he's there to do.
That's when we look at each other
And we change the subject.

...

He tells us he packs a nasty kung-fu kick.
He tells us he learned it from his girlfriend in Canada.

We hear he lacks stamina.
We hear he talks big to hide his impotence.
We laugh about it when he's around.
He pretends not to mind.

When we're alone, he will quote Paul Simon.
I'm hiding in my room, Safe within my womb, he starts.
I know how it goes and I pat his back.
There, there.

...

We think he's out of touch.
We've seen him find a barber's tub
And wear it as a helmet.

We've seen him enter a VW in a drag race.
In the end, we'd sit with him and say he'd almost won.
But we wonder why he didn't drive a faster car.

Some days he calls me after his classes
To say he learned to make flapjacks.
I tell him that's wonderful,
But haven't we all been eating flapjacks for weeks already?

...

Some days I can hear Bruce Lee crying in my living room.
He mutters things to the potted plants.

If he got a real job, he might chip in for rent once in a while.

I'm not sure I want him sleeeping on my couch anymore.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 11:42 AM
Assuming this is Horizon Walker, nope. The Terrain and Planar Mastery benefits apply everywhere. The idea is that you bring your experience with the terrain or plane with you and apply it elsewhere. The SRD description doesn't even mention Limbo.

Whoops. I've never played one, so it's not suprising I got it wrong. Sorry. :smallredface:

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 11:45 AM
Why is that such a big problem? You just have to move 20 ft each round.

Try climbing a cliff in a small space. I suppose hovering in and of itself doesn't matter, but every maneuverability that allows you to go straight up allows you to hover. I'll fix it.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 11:51 AM
I'm a little confused here. Are you suggesting that the spellcasting wizard is inferior because it simply cant fight in melee

or

Are you forgetting that unless the wizard starts the fight off in a corner he can simply 5 foot step away from the monk and cast to his hearts content? He's not in the least bit "trapped" by the monks presence. Even if he can't 5 foot step he still has concentration.

Neither. I'm saying (at least I was when I wrote the apparentl-controversial wizard v. monk battle) that the wizard has pros and cons compared to the monk. Just like any two races/classes/etc. Well, for the most part;no one thinks burning hands has many pros over fireball.

Flickerdart
2009-05-31, 11:52 AM
Neither. I'm saying (at least I was when I wrote the apparentl-controversial wizard v. monk battle) that the wizard has pros and cons compared to the monk. Just like any two races/classes/etc. Well, for the most part;no one thinks burning hands has many pros over fireball.
Both spells are worthless, but they are all you seem to believe a wizard has in his arsenal. Blasting is a sub-optimal strategy.

Also, would it kill you to not double- and triple-post? There is an Edit button, you know.

Gorbash
2009-05-31, 01:29 PM
Try climbing a cliff in a small space.

Let me just calculate how many different ways a Wizard can solve that one:

Spiderclimb
Alter Self into something with climb/burrow/good fly speed
Polymorph into something with climb/burrow/good fly speed
Fly
Dimension Door
Dimensional Shuffle
Dimensional Jump
Teleport

So, 8 that I know of, off the top of my head. So even if a Wizard finds himself in an exactly 5 foot wide narrow shaft/chimney, yeah, he won't be able to use Overland Flight to fly up, he'll just do any of the said 8+ ways to do it. While a VoP monk can try to climb in a mundane way or use his 1/day ability to do it. Also, each and every one of those abilities has some other uses afterwards, while monk's teleport doesn't. How exactly is a VoP monk better in this situation?


I clearly said "in melee". Even then, a few acid splashes and magic missiles won't make much difference. Once Wizzo's in melee range, he can't escape.

Now, since you failed to adress the issue of Abrupt Jaunt that many before me suggested, let me be the first one to actually shatter your illusion.
Abrupt Jaunt, from PHB2, page 70 is a spell-like ability which you gain by trading it for your familiar. You can use it Int times a day (so for a 1st lvl wizard 3 to 4 times, even more if properly optimized) even as a response to someone else's action (say a monk about to hit you) as an immediate action and it states that you can teleport for up to 10 feet.

Meaning that, you just wasted 4 rounds trying to hit the Wizard, while he spent his 4 rounds casting spells, shooting you with a crossbow, etc.

grautry
2009-05-31, 04:24 PM
By usin ganother 9th-level slot.

The thing is? He will actually have that 9th level spell slot.

Your MoMM? Won't.

Now, a Warshaper/MoMM is a very fine build and plenty fun to play with too. But it's not even in the same league as a straight Druid. Shapechange is after all - only one trick up a druid's sleeve.

Edit: Forgot Rainbom Falls was arcane-casters only. Paragraph deleted.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 04:27 PM
Also, the list of Monk feats is very limited and none of them solve the inherent problems of VoP.

First of all, I was trying to help fix the monk, not VoP. Second of all, those were just a start. Here's a couple more.

Anchient Dodge Technique (Monk)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Monk 3+
Benifet: You gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to half your Wisdom bonus.

Even More Anchient Dodge Technique
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dodge, Anchient Dodge Technique, Monk 5+
Benifet: You may use your Wisdom instead of your Dexterity for armor class. Yes, this means you add your Wisdom bonus twice. Deal with it.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 04:45 PM
The thing is? He will actually have that 9th level spell slot.

Your MoMM? Won't.

Now, a Warshaper/MoMM is a very fine build and plenty fun to play with too. But it's not even in the same league as a straight Druid. Shapechange is after all - only one trick up a druid's sleeve.

Edit: Forgot Rainbom Falls was arcane-casters only. Paragraph deleted.

Thanks. Did you notice my comment about a new thread and PMing me the link?

Logalmier
2009-05-31, 05:00 PM
One thing I don't like about monks is that besides being terrible at combat, they also aren't very good for roleplaying. Bards are okay, because while there not as melee oriented as they're supposed to be they at least have very good roleplaying options and excel at social situations. They aren't bad, they're more balanced then a lot of classes in the PH. Monks however aren't good at anything.

Grey Paladin
2009-05-31, 05:02 PM
They used to be one of the best classes in 3.0, which made MAD a good thing.

They really suck at 3.5 because none bothered to fix that issue.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-05-31, 05:11 PM
They used to be one of the best classes in 3.0, which made MAD a good thing.

They really suck at 3.5 because none bothered to fix that issue.

What made them so much better in 3.0? all the changes I remember is switching special monk BaB out for flurry of blows.

Grey Paladin
2009-05-31, 05:29 PM
They had -both- Monk BAB as well as Flurry of Blows, for the total of 6 attacks. 8 if Dual-wielding.

+Attribute items stacked with each other up to a bonus of +12, so you could stack many +1 to Dex, Str, Con, Wis items in different slots for the best AC and saves in the game (aside from a Paladin/Blackguard CHA build), while still remaining offensively competent.

High-DC (due to +WIS items) Standard-action Stunning Fist together with insane jumping let them pull off full-attacks rather often.

At epic levels, due to some feats, they were more or less immune to all spells, including epic spells.

RebeccaOTool
2009-05-31, 06:03 PM
I played a great Monk in my last game. I was one of the few to survive Ravenloft...:smallsmile:

derfenrirwolv
2009-05-31, 07:22 PM
+Attribute items stacked with each other up to a bonus of +12, so you could stack many +1 to Dex, Str, Con, Wis items in different slots for the best AC and saves in the game


... what?

Items didn't change any between 3.0 and 3.5.

I'm not sure what you're saying +stat items never stacked with each other. They were always non stacking enhancement bonuses.

There's still nothing preventing your monk from having gauntlets of dexterity a periapt of wisdom and a belt of giant strength.

Faleldir
2009-05-31, 07:54 PM
Anchient Dodge Technique (Monk)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Monk 3+
Benifet: You gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to half your Wisdom bonus.

Even More Anchient Dodge Technique
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dodge, Anchient Dodge Technique, Monk 5+
Benifet: You may use your Wisdom instead of your Dexterity for armor class. Yes, this means you add your Wisdom bonus twice. Deal with it.
Again, this is just a passive bonus. Unless your homebrew feats are as broken as Divine Metamagic, any fix that involves giving up your precious feat slots is only making it worse. The class itself needs a complete makeover.

Don't Suck [Monk 1, 2, 6]
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Benefit: As a swift action, you may spend one of your daily Stunning Fist attacks to do one of the following:
-Immediately take another turn
-Immediately gain one additional use of one of your Monk class features
-Change your Ki Strike class feature into any material and alignment for one round per Monk level
-Add 1d6 damage per Monk level (maximum 10d6) to your next unarmed strike
-Gain a miss chance for one round equal to the distance you move during your turn

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 08:13 PM
Let me just calculate how many different ways a Wizard can solve that one:

Spiderclimb
Alter Self into something with climb/burrow/good fly speed
Polymorph into something with climb/burrow/good fly speed
Fly
Dimension Door
Dimensional Shuffle
Dimensional Jump
Teleport

So, 8 that I know of, off the top of my head. So even if a Wizard finds himself in an exactly 5 foot wide narrow shaft/chimney, yeah, he won't be able to use Overland Flight to fly up, he'll just do any of the said 8+ ways to do it. While a VoP monk can try to climb in a mundane way or use his 1/day ability to do it. Also, each and every one of those abilities has some other uses afterwards, while monk's teleport doesn't. How exactly is a VoP monk better in this situation?
First of all, why does VoP enter the equation?
Second of all, I was debunking (specifically) one specific use of overland flight. Yeah, the wizard can do it, but the monk can save him the spell slots. They've got better uses, like escape. (From a monk. :smalltongue:)


Now, since you failed to adress the issue of Abrupt Jaunt that many before me suggested, let me be the first one to actually shatter your illusion.
Abrupt Jaunt, from PHB2, page 70 is a spell-like ability which you gain by trading it for your familiar. You can use it Int times a day (so for a 1st lvl wizard 3 to 4 times, even more if properly optimized) even as a response to someone else's action (say a monk about to hit you) as an immediate action and it states that you can teleport for up to 10 feet.

Meaning that, you just wasted 4 rounds trying to hit the Wizard, while he spent his 4 rounds casting spells, shooting you with a crossbow, etc.

Okay, 10 extra feet a round. Goodbye, unarmed strike-hello, sling. 1d4+1 damage still K.O.'s the wizard in (on average) 2 hits or less. Even if Wiz can only be hit 50% of the time (not likely, since the only thing modifying most 1st-level wizards' AC is Dexterity), Wizzy's got 4,5 roundds. Then, poof!


Monk:You're unconsious. Coup de Grace.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-31, 08:33 PM
Okay, 10 extra feet a round. Goodbye, unarmed strike-hello, sling. 1d4+1 damage still K.O.'s the wizard in (on average) 2 hits or less. Even if Wiz can only be hit 50% of the time (not likely, since the only thing modifying most 1st-level wizards' AC is Dexterity), Wizzy's got 4,5 roundds. Then, poof!

And the Monk's got 2-3 rounds, because the Wizard can sling Magic Missiles at him that do the same damage, autohit, and don't need to worry about spell resistance. And if the Wizard happened to prep Mage Armor instead of a 3rd MM, now your monk is looking at a 25-30% hit chance instead of 50%.

Gorbash
2009-05-31, 08:38 PM
Okay, 10 extra feet a round. Goodbye, unarmed strike-hello, sling. 1d4+1 damage still K.O.'s the wizard in (on average) 2 hits or less. Even if Wiz can only be hit 50% of the time (not likely, since the only thing modifying most 1st-level wizards' AC is Dexterity), Wizzy's got 4,5 roundds. Then, poof!

And where did I state that you can teleport only from melee attacks? :smallconfused:

GreatWyrmGold
2009-05-31, 08:42 PM
And where did I state that you can teleport only from melee attacks? :smallconfused:

You didn't, I just forgot you could do it on an opponent's turn. I thought you meant to help escape...






Whoops.

Harperfan7
2009-05-31, 08:57 PM
Can someone point me to the unarmed swordsage variant?

quick_comment
2009-05-31, 09:07 PM
Its in the adaptation part of the swordsage section.


The reasons monks suck is that you can replicate nearly every one of their abilities with WBL, and still have cash left over to spare. You cant do that with any other class, even a fighter.

An unarmed fighter focusing on unarmed strike is a better monk than a monk.

A cleric can be a better monk than a monk. Just choose the "natural force" of martial arts as your diety to grant your spells, and reflavor your spells as magic ninjitsu.

A ninja is a better monk than a monk. He can do almost anything better than a monk.

DamnedIrishman
2009-05-31, 09:09 PM
First of all, I was trying to help fix the monk, not VoP. Second of all, those were just a start. Here's a couple more.

Anchient Dodge Technique (Monk)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Monk 3+
Benifet: You gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to half your Wisdom bonus.

Even More Anchient Dodge Technique
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dodge, Anchient Dodge Technique, Monk 5+
Benifet: You may use your Wisdom instead of your Dexterity for armor class. Yes, this means you add your Wisdom bonus twice. Deal with it.

No 'h' in ancient.

Doc Roc
2009-05-31, 09:17 PM
Okay, 10 extra feet a round. Goodbye, unarmed strike-hello, sling. 1d4+1 damage still K.O.'s the wizard in (on average) 2 hits or less. Even if Wiz can only be hit 50% of the time (not likely, since the only thing modifying most 1st-level wizards' AC is Dexterity), Wizzy's got 4,5 roundds. Then, poof!

No! NO! You are WRONG!

Blink, mirror image, blur, so many things make those numbers wrong. I keep trying to be nice, but I think we need to talk in real time. This is not how you do this math.

kjones
2009-05-31, 09:30 PM
No! NO! You are WRONG!

Blink, mirror image, blur, so many things make those numbers wrong. I keep trying to be nice, but I think we need to talk in real time. This is not how you do this math.

He's talking about a 1st-level wizard, who wouldn't have access to those spells.

GreatWyrmGold: I appreciate your homebrew feats, but for the purposes of this discussion, could we stick to RAW? There have been many, many attempts to balance the monk - there is a place for those discussions, and it's not this thread.

Flickerdart
2009-05-31, 10:18 PM
No 'h' in ancient.
It's a bad pun on "chi", you see.


Okay, 10 extra feet a round. Goodbye, unarmed strike-hello, sling. 1d4+1 damage still K.O.'s the wizard in (on average) 2 hits or less. Even if Wiz can only be hit 50% of the time (not likely, since the only thing modifying most 1st-level wizards' AC is Dexterity), Wizzy's got 4,5 roundds. Then, poof!
Yeah, and that's also the only thing modifying the Monk's attack. Except the Wizard's will be higher, because he doesn't have to spread thin across five stats. You're looking at an attack against, say, AC 17 (Grey Elf Wizard with Mage Armour or Shield and 16 DEX, (14 base plus racial), and 21 AC of he has both up) with your modifier to hit of maybe +3. At the very best, since you want WIS and STR over DEX already. That's a laughable chance, whereas even Magic Missile hits 100% of the time.

quick_comment
2009-05-31, 10:51 PM
Level 1 monk vs level 1 wizard.

Wizard:
Lets say 10 in all stats, but 16 in con and 16 in int. He has 7 hp. He has 2 first level spells per day. Assume he is unbuffed and naked.

Monk:
Lets say 18 in all stats. He has 12 hp.

The monk has a 70% chance of going first.

If the monk acts first:
Round 1:
Monk charges wizard. He has a +6 attack bonus, vs the wizards AC 10, so he has a 80% chance of hitting. If he hits, he deals 1d6+4 damage and forces a DC 14 fort save or stun. He has a 50% chance of doing enough damage to kill the wizard. So he kills the wizard 40% of the time.

The wizard has a +3 fort save, so he has a 45% chance to save against the stunning fist. So the monk has a 44% chance of stunning the wizard. In the first round, we have a 40% chance of killing the wizard, and a 22% chance of hitting him, stunning him and not killing him. So a 2/3rds chance at killing/stunning him.

If the wizard doesnt die, he then casts color spray. The monk has a +6 save vs a DC 14. So he has a 60% chance of passing the save. If he fails the save he dies.

If the monk pases the save, he then flurries. He makes two attacks each at a +2 bonus, so each attack has a 60% chance of hitting. Either one of those kills the wizard, so the wizard almost certainly dies here.

If the wizard goes first, he opens with a color spray. He has a 40% chance of winning right away. After that, we go with the odds above.

So for these characters, the monk has a 46% chance of winning initative and then killing the wizard and a 12% chance of losing initative and killing the wizard. This means the wizard has a 100-46-12% chance of winning, or 42% chance of winning.

So even with giving every advantage to the monk (absurd stats on the monk, ****ty ones on the wizard, within charging distance, and the wizard does not have mage armor cast already AND the monk always kills the mage on his second round of attacking), the monk still only wins slightly better than half the time.

If we allow the distance to increase, or the wizard to cast mage armor before the battle, the odds suddenly increase greatly in the wizards favor. And if we start optimizing, there isnt much you can do for a monk at level 1. For a level 1 wizard, he can take precocious apprentice and be able to cast level 2 spells, which means the monk is blinded by glitterdust, no save, or cant hit the wizard who is levitating.

Teron
2009-06-01, 12:20 AM
Second of all, I was debunking (specifically) one specific use of overland flight. Yeah, the wizard can do it, but the monk can save him the spell slots. They've got better uses, like escape. (From a monk. :smalltongue:)
You haven't debunked anything. Overland flight lasts an hour per level. The wizard can cast it at the start of the day and use it to bypass obstacles and evade monks whenever he comes across either, with the same negligible amount of effort.

quick_comment
2009-06-01, 12:58 AM
You haven't debunked anything. Overland flight lasts an hour per level. The wizard can cast it at the start of the day and use it to bypass obstacles and evade monks whenever he comes across either, with the same negligible amount of effort.

Heck, a high enough level wizard can cast extended overland flight at night before he prepares his spells and go until the following night before he prepares it again.

Gorbash
2009-06-01, 02:51 AM
You didn't, I just forgot you could do it on an opponent's turn. I thought you meant to help escape...






Whoops.

So... What's your plan B?

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 03:06 AM
So... What's your plan B?

The presence of a plan B tends to imply a plan A existed.

Gorbash
2009-06-01, 03:16 AM
Well, it existed. It wasn't a very good plan and was based on wrong assumptions regarding Wizard's abilities, but it existed.

Killer Angel
2009-06-01, 04:46 AM
Wow, I was distracted a couple of days, and this thread hits 7 pages?
I'm impressed, and also with very remarkable posts (the Monk Vs the Solar? priceless :smallbiggrin:).

Anyway, GreatWyrmGold, I think that just staying in the first page (the 6th post), you should have the answer to your OP.

It's not a matter of hating a class, it's a matter of poor design. Playing a monk can be funny, but, sadly, it's the weakest core class (yes, counting also the fighter, as explained by Telonius in the post n. 70).

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 06:08 AM
... what?

Items didn't change any between 3.0 and 3.5.

I'm not sure what you're saying +stat items never stacked with each other. They were always non stacking enhancement bonuses.

There's still nothing preventing your monk from having gauntlets of dexterity a periapt of wisdom and a belt of giant strength.

3.0 had items that gave a bonus to an attribute or saving throws stack with each other.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 07:02 AM
3.0 had items that gave a bonus to an attribute or saving throws stack with each other.
What, you mean like how Dodge bonuses stack?

"Save VS poison."
"Ok *rolls* ...17. I dodge it."
"What?"
"I dodge the poison."
"But...it's inside you."
"That's what she said."

Jayabalard
2009-06-01, 07:07 AM
GreatWyrmGold: I appreciate your homebrew feats, but for the purposes of this discussion, could we stick to RAW? There have been many, many attempts to balance the monk - there is a place for those discussions, and it's not this thread.he's the OP... the guy who started the thread. It's kind of silly to tell him that he's not staying on the correct topic. If he wants to include discussion of homebrew and you don't, you should probably start your own thread.

Steward
2009-06-01, 07:11 AM
Monks are pretty decent in my experience.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 08:07 AM
What, you mean like how Dodge bonuses stack?

"Save VS poison."
"Ok *rolls* ...17. I dodge it."
"What?"
"I dodge the poison."
"But...it's inside you."
"That's what she said."

Har har. I am sure you understood I refered to how each type of bonus stacked with itself, so +Fort items stacked with +Fort items, and +Dex items with other +Dex items.

Amongst the AC bonuses, dodge is unique in stacking in the same way.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-01, 09:49 AM
There's a save to avoid being blinded by glitterdust



Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (blinding only

You're still all sparkly though




Originally Posted by Grey Paladin View Post
3.0 had items that gave a bonus to an attribute or saving throws stack with each other.

Nope. That rule was there from the get go. Ya'll just missed it.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 10:56 AM
A) I have my 3.0 books in front of me
B) WotC are pedantic about the newer D&D video games following their rules, and this is the way Neverwinter Nights works.

lesser_minion
2009-06-01, 11:14 AM
A) I have my 3.0 books in front of me
B) WotC are pedantic about the newer D&D video games following their rules, and this is the way Neverwinter Nights works.

Check your DMG - there is actually a large table (AFB, so I can only tell you that it's near the start of chapter 8) explaining what bonus types exist, what they can apply to, and with examples of what may grant them. On the same page, it not only explains that bonuses of the same type do not stack, but also explains the reasoning behind the rule.

See also: the section on masterwork items in the PHB.

I think the type of bonus was omitted from a couple of items by mistake, but even then they wouldn't stack (and the actual type should have been clear) - there is no such thing as an untyped bonus in 3.0.

The only examples they give are AC bonuses, IIRC, but the rules should be pretty clear. The books also made quite a bit of fuss pointing out that inherent bonuses didn't stack.

Neverwinter Nights actually does several things differently to 3.0 (Skills and Weapon Finesse, as a couple of examples the top of my head). I'm not sure where you get the idea that WotC were that pedantic about licensed games.

Actually, from my experience of the video game adaptations, all of them worked as you describe - with the stacking rules only applying to AC bonuses. That is not how it works in the normal game, however.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 11:48 AM
Chapter 8 is the dictionary for me, but I do vaguely recall the passage you talked of. IIRC it stated that bonues from the same source do not stack, so multiple castings of Bull's Strength wouldn't keep pushing your score up, but casting Bull's Strength and wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength simultaneously would result in a higher score than doing either alone.

Bioware worked closely with WotC on the first game and claimed they were forced to basically redesign a lot of stuff multiple times because they didn't work like Core.

It'd be rather funny if we were doin' it wrung.

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 01:28 PM
Casting Bull's Strength and wearing a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength simultaneously would result in a higher score than doing either alone.
[...]
It'd be rather funny if we were doin' it wrung.

You are. You are doing it extremely wrong. If the world worked this way, I could hand you a character with 120 strength pretty easily. As it stands, it might take me a couple of hours of work.

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 01:30 PM
What, you mean like how Dodge bonuses stack?

"Save VS poison."
"Ok *rolls* ...17. I dodge it."
"What?"
"I dodge the poison."
"But...it's inside you."
"That's what she said."

Done this a couple of times. It's worth the tremendous amount of effort required.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 03:01 PM
You are. You are doing it extremely wrong. If the world worked this way, I could hand you a character with 120 strength pretty easily. As it stands, it might take me a couple of hours of work.

Except that the bonus was limited to +12, and it was 3.0, but nice try.

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 03:10 PM
Except that the bonus was limited to +12, and it was 3.0, but nice try.

:) 12 per bonus type, and excluding polymorph. 3.0 was a very funny place.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 03:32 PM
+12 from Magical bonuses, not including Inherent. Polymorph set your strength to a certain base value and so got around it.

Optimystik
2009-06-01, 04:27 PM
he's the OP... the guy who started the thread. It's kind of silly to tell him that he's not staying on the correct topic. If he wants to include discussion of homebrew and you don't, you should probably start your own thread.

So "monks are fine because I bent the rules to accommodate them?"

Oh, you white knights.

Jayabalard
2009-06-01, 04:35 PM
So "monks are fine because I bent the rules to accommodate them?"Not at all... keep on talking about how you play, and your experiences with monks. But it's a bit absurd for someone to tell the OP to start his own thread if he wants to deviate from a strictly RAW discussion.

lesser_minion
2009-06-01, 04:44 PM
I know Icewind Dale II only implemented the stacking rules for A.C. bonuses. It also kept quite a lot of AD&D elements around - even elves being harder to resurrect.

Neverwinter Nights I implemented a lot more of the game (pretty much everything Icewind Dale II used, and more), but there were still differences in the rules and how they worked.

At no point in the 3.0 books do I recall seeing a rule that stated that characters are limited to a specific bonus to any given thing, but bonuses of the same type can stack.

It should be somewhere in the chapter on magic items - big table listing bonuses and their sources, and a "Behind the DM Screen" section explaining the stacking rules and why they work the way they do.

Which year was your DMG printed? Chapter 7 should be 'Rewards' and Chapter 8 should be 'Magic Items', IIRC. After that there is an appendix, which starts with a list of all items available in a large town.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-01, 04:50 PM
It's a bad pun on "chi", you see.


Yeah, and that's also the only thing modifying the Monk's attack. Except the Wizard's will be higher, because he doesn't have to spread thin across five stats. You're looking at an attack against, say, AC 17 (Grey Elf Wizard with Mage Armour or Shield and 16 DEX, (14 base plus racial), and 21 AC of he has both up) with your modifier to hit of maybe +3. At the very best, since you want WIS and STR over DEX already. That's a laughable chance, whereas even Magic Missile hits 100% of the time.

1: No, it's bad spelling. Bad spelling that will be corrected ASAP.
2: Alright, then. I'll be posting results of a wizard v. monk battle assuming as many averages as possible.


Level 1 monk vs level 1 wizard.

Wizard:
Lets say 10 in all stats, but 16 in con and 16 in int. He has 7 hp. He has 2 first level spells per day. Assume he is unbuffed and naked.

Monk:
Lets say 18 in all stats. He has 12 hp.

The monk has a 70% chance of going first.

If the monk acts first:
Round 1:
Monk charges wizard. He has a +6 attack bonus, vs the wizards AC 10, so he has a 80% chance of hitting. If he hits, he deals 1d6+4 damage and forces a DC 14 fort save or stun. He has a 50% chance of doing enough damage to kill the wizard. So he kills the wizard 40% of the time.

The wizard has a +3 fort save, so he has a 45% chance to save against the stunning fist. So the monk has a 44% chance of stunning the wizard. In the first round, we have a 40% chance of killing the wizard, and a 22% chance of hitting him, stunning him and not killing him. So a 2/3rds chance at killing/stunning him.

If the wizard doesnt die, he then casts color spray. The monk has a +6 save vs a DC 14. So he has a 60% chance of passing the save. If he fails the save he dies.

If the monk pases the save, he then flurries. He makes two attacks each at a +2 bonus, so each attack has a 60% chance of hitting. Either one of those kills the wizard, so the wizard almost certainly dies here.

If the wizard goes first, he opens with a color spray. He has a 40% chance of winning right away. After that, we go with the odds above.

So for these characters, the monk has a 46% chance of winning initative and then killing the wizard and a 12% chance of losing initative and killing the wizard. This means the wizard has a 100-46-12% chance of winning, or 42% chance of winning.

So even with giving every advantage to the monk (absurd stats on the monk, ****ty ones on the wizard, within charging distance, and the wizard does not have mage armor cast already AND the monk always kills the mage on his second round of attacking), the monk still only wins slightly better than half the time.

If we allow the distance to increase, or the wizard to cast mage armor before the battle, the odds suddenly increase greatly in the wizards favor. And if we start optimizing, there isnt much you can do for a monk at level 1. For a level 1 wizard, he can take precocious apprentice and be able to cast level 2 spells, which means the monk is blinded by glitterdust, no save, or cant hit the wizard who is levitating.

Well...someone ninja'd me. I got different results, though. I'll stick to the one that had the best wizard's results. (He got about a 64% chance.)

To those who claimed I didn't debunk anything: Yes, I did, I debunked one specific use of overland flight. Exactly what I attempted to do.


Monks are pretty decent in my experience.
I wholeheartedly agree.

Curmudgeon
2009-06-01, 04:57 PM
Ovecoming Hardness? Innuendo aside, Acid damage. Sonic. Not true; you're misreading the rules.
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Hardness applies normally. It's just that other energy types do worse:
Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Acid and sonic attacks aren't reduced before you apply hardness, but you do apply hardness to objects just as you apply DR to creatures. The game authors just assumed that went without saying when mentioning those first two energy types, so they didn't say it.

The Gilded Duke
2009-06-01, 05:02 PM
So random monk question.
If you have a monk with a wisdom penalty does it take away from your ac?

Jayabalard
2009-06-01, 05:07 PM
Warforged.Setting specific races are not really very good counterargument. You can't assume that people are going to be playing with them.

Kylarra
2009-06-01, 05:12 PM
So random monk question.
If you have a monk with a wisdom penalty does it take away from your ac?No. If negative, nothing gets added.



When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

The Gilded Duke
2009-06-01, 05:15 PM
Nice, I have a few builds I've been working on where it would be efficient to just dump wisdom entirely but still use some monk abilities.

Grey Paladin
2009-06-01, 05:39 PM
The book says 2003, but I distinctly remember buying it at 2000 . . hrm.
Could be a translation issue.

Aside from Discipline, and possibly this, NWN follows the rules very closely.

Teron
2009-06-01, 05:50 PM
Second of all, I was debunking (specifically) one specific use of overland flight. Yeah, the wizard can do it, but the monk can save him the spell slots. They've got better uses, like escape. (From a monk. :smalltongue:)


You haven't debunked anything. Overland flight lasts an hour per level. The wizard can cast it at the start of the day and use it to bypass obstacles and evade monks whenever he comes across either, with the same negligible amount of effort.


To those who claimed I didn't debunk anything: Yes, I did, I debunked one specific use of overland flight. Exactly what I attempted to do.
Something is very wrong here. I'm posting in English, aren't I?

Let's try this in even simpler terms: overland flight lasts all day. Therefore, if it is worth casting at all (and it certainly is), no single usage is too trivial. The wizard has already cast overland flight anyway, so it doesn't cost him anything to fly whenever he damn well feels like it.

quick_comment
2009-06-01, 05:52 PM
Nice, I have a few builds I've been working on where it would be efficient to just dump wisdom entirely but still use some monk abilities.

Would those abilities be better or worse than the ability to do 4x damage as a std action? Or the ability to teleport as a swift action?

lesser_minion
2009-06-01, 05:53 PM
The book says 2003, but I distinctly remember buying it at 2000 . . hrm.
Could be a translation issue.

Aside from Discipline, and possibly this, NWN follows the rules very closely.

I bought my copy in '02-ish. It seems there were some pretty big changes between the two print runs, so we could both be right.

Does your PHB have Polymorph as utterly broken (gain all Ex abilities) or just pretty broken (gain Ex abilities of specific, listed types)?

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-01, 06:19 PM
Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

He may have to go.

Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or gigolo anymore.

So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

Sincerely,
Concerned

The Gilded Duke
2009-06-01, 07:40 PM
Would those abilities be better or worse than the ability to do 4x damage as a std action? Or the ability to teleport as a swift action?

Haha, I'm not trying to argue that at all. The monk sucks when used to make an unarmed combatant. I occasionally use the monk class as part of a larger build. It is a great way to get into Psionic Fist for example.

While there are better UberChargers flurrying with a quarterstaff with it wielded 2 Handed as a full attack on a charge with leap attack shock trooper etc can be a lot of fun.

The specific build I'm working on now takes Fist of Forest and Deepwarden and combines it with Drunken Master. Drunken Master's Drink Like a Demon ability lets them pump Strength and Dex at the expense of Int and Wisdom.

With Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest you get x2 Constitution to AC but lose Dex to AC. This would allow the build to dump dex, not need much wisdom, and focus on Strength and Constitution.

The main reason for the build though is to make a dwarf which gets significantly more powerful the more drunk it gets.

chiasaur11
2009-06-01, 07:53 PM
Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

He may have to go.

Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or bellboy anymore.

So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

Sincerely,
Concerned

Concerned?

I cry shennanigans! Frohman doesn't wrote that literately!

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 08:16 PM
Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

[...]
Sincerely,
Concerned

What do these forums use in the place of cookies? What do I hand a man who just produced win and glory without being an ass?

Eldariel
2009-06-01, 08:31 PM
What do these forums use in the place of cookies? What do I hand a man who just produced win and glory without being an ass?

An internet will do.

chiasaur11
2009-06-01, 08:54 PM
An internet will do.

Rutskarn gave me a hero token.

Admittedly, as far as I know, it's the only one.

And we give cookies too. Just less of them.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-02, 05:51 PM
Something is very wrong here. I'm posting in English, aren't I?

Let's try this in even simpler terms: overland flight lasts all day. Therefore, if it is worth casting at all (and it certainly is), no single usage is too trivial. The wizard has already cast overland flight anyway, so it doesn't cost him anything to fly whenever he damn well feels like it.

All right, I'll reiterate. This is the last time I'll post this. Overland Flight is average maneverability. You can't fly straight up with it, even though Xykon did. That's what I initially meant, that's what I proved.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to read the rest of the thread.


Dear GreatWyrmAbby,

I first just wanted to say love your column and read it daily.

Anyway, I have been having trouble with my Monk friend. He comes home after work and he seems despondant. He tells me he feels like he has no place in the world. I don't know what to say to him him. How would you respond?

I do my best to try to help him through this thing, sometimes surprising him with Greater Magic Weapons, Mind Blanks, Greater Mighty Wallops and even a 3.0 Empowered [Animal's Ability] suite. But he still struggles to keep up with the neighbors. (After he just got through another round of lay-offs and heard both Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior got promotions last week, he cried.)

I wouldn't be so concerned, if he weren't in so dangerous a line of work. I think it's starting to get to him. He had a nightmare last night about a Purple Worm. It was running amok in the middle of town and everybody was looking at him. He said he had the strange feeling they wanted to see him either punch it in the face or wrestle it to the ground. He woke up screaming.

Now I might be able to accept this, but it has always been a problem (just it used to be Vrocks, and Giants before that, and Owlbears before that) and I'm starting to need my sleep. My own performance has been slipping -- he is becoming too much of a disturbance for me to memorize my spells in the morning, and without them I can't make a living (I never expected my Profession: Gambler ranks to keep food on my table, you see).

He may have to go.

Things were so much simpler in the days when he could occasionally beat up first level wizards. But now he finds himself at work and doesn't know what his job is supposed to be. I don't think his boss or co-workers remember either. My friend is afraid the next round of layoffs will be the end of him.

He's only really qualified for work as a sherpa or gigolo anymore.

So Greatwyrm, what would you advise my friend the Monk to do if you were in my shoes?

How could he make himself shine to avoid downsizing? How could he make himself survive and thrive in the dangers he faces on a day-to-day basis? How can he find a strength of his own to feel a sense of self-worth again, living next to Mr. Totemist and Mr. Psychic Warrior?

Sincerely,
Concerned

Okay, seriously, it depends on his level. For the first few levels, use a quarterstaff. ALWAYS have a sling or a bunch of shuriken or something. Try to minimise your weaknesses. A monk's belt is, although helpful, something to put on the magic item chopping block unless you find one. You should use ability-enhancing items (for your lower important stats, especially). Get wings of flying and other mobility-enhancing items. Spring Attack, even with its bad prereqs, is almost a must. At higher levels, they can't get you without charging if you use that feat. Then, you can jump right out of reach. Get wands/scrolls and ranks in UMD for obscure capabilities. Overall, never stand still except to Full Attack or something. And never think you're useless. :haley: Yeah! You're use-impaired!
:me: Haley, that doesn't help.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 06:32 PM
Okay, seriously, it depends on his level. For the first few levels, use a quarterstaff. ALWAYS have a sling or a bunch of shuriken or something. Try to minimise your weaknesses. A monk's belt is, although helpful, something to put on the magic item chopping block unless you find one. You should use ability-enhancing items (for your lower important stats, especially). Get wings of flying and other mobility-enhancing items. Spring Attack, even with its bad prereqs, is almost a must. At higher levels, they can't get you without charging if you use that feat. Then, you can jump right out of reach. Get wands/scrolls and ranks in UMD for obscure capabilities. Overall, never stand still except to Full Attack or something.
Your comments and your 'fixes' have more or less neglected the one important question:

What do you do?



It's not damage (you aren't Power Attacking for very much between MAD and low BA, it's more difficult for you to get Pounce than most classes, you have trouble overcoming DR with most monk weapons).
It's not irreplicable skills (Most of your skill list is mobility, which is more or less replaced by flight).
It's not disablement past low levels (Monster Fortitude saves and Grapple checks scale too fast for most non-Psychic Warrior/Totemist characters to keep up; casters have other defenses; combat maneuvers like Disarms depend on you beating enemy attack rolls).
It's not battlefield control (you don't get reach or controller class abilities and you don't use Stand Still well; unless you something to do, you aren't enough of a threat to draw enemy fire on your own).


The Monk isn't even very rewarding to buff: SR makes support casting into a gamble and common mass-buffs aren't particularly useful for them (Mass Fly means they have to stick around at the same speed as slower party members, Haste doesn't help much with Monks who already have Speed enhancements and do little damage with their attacks anyway).

As far as I can see, the Monk's entire schtick is survival. And that doesn't count for much if you can't use it to keep the rest of the party safe.

Edit:
Other melee classes that I consider to function -- like the ToB classes, Psychic Warrior, Binder, Duskblade, Totemist and even Knight -- can help their parties beyond just being a warm body in the group.

On top of wider skill lists and more expansive arrays of out-of-combat abilities, they have abilities that generate large amounts of damage, disable enemies or attract attacks -- all while retaining mobility.

The Monk doesn't, unless you count a per-day Fortitude-targeting, crit-vulnerable-only melee attack made at a low attack bonus. (One any character can pick up at the cost of a feat.)

So unless you're doing something special with your Monks, that just isn't going to cut it.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-02, 08:12 PM
Your comments and your 'fixes' have more or less neglected the one important question:

What do you do?



It's not damage (you aren't Power Attacking for very much between MAD and low BA, it's more difficult for you to get Pounce than most classes, you have trouble overcoming DR with most monk weapons).
It's not irreplicable skills (Most of your skill list is mobility, which is more or less replaced by flight).
It's not disablement past low levels (Monster Fortitude saves and Grapple checks scale too fast for most non-Psychic Warrior/Totemist characters to keep up; casters have other defenses; combat maneuvers like Disarms depend on you beating enemy attack rolls).
It's not battlefield control (you don't get reach or controller class abilities and you don't use Stand Still well; unless you something to do, you aren't enough of a threat to draw enemy fire on your own).


The Monk isn't even very rewarding to buff: SR makes support casting into a gamble and common mass-buffs aren't particularly useful for them (Mass Fly means they have to stick around at the same speed as slower party members, Haste doesn't help much with Monks who already have Speed enhancements and do little damage with their attacks anyway).

As far as I can see, the Monk's entire schtick is survival. And that doesn't count for much if you can't use it to keep the rest of the party safe.

Edit:
Other melee classes that I consider to function -- like the ToB classes, Psychic Warrior, Binder, Duskblade, Totemist and even Knight -- can help their parties beyond just being a warm body in the group.

On top of wider skill lists and more expansive arrays of out-of-combat abilities, they have abilities that generate large amounts of damage, disable enemies or attract attacks -- all while retaining mobility.

The Monk doesn't, unless you count a per-day Fortitude-targeting, crit-vulnerable-only melee attack made at a low attack bonus. (One any character can pick up at the cost of a feat.)

So unless you're doing something special with your Monks, that just isn't going to cut it.

Okay, 1st of all, you only get SR at 20th level, making it not a concern for most adventurers. Plus, it can be lowered.
2nd, Monks can use Spring Attack like no one else can.
3rd, I can do spoilers.
:smallbiggrin:
Seriously, I replied to everything he said.

Edit: 4th, Stunning Fist isn't just one feat. You have to take Improved Unarmed Strike (useless), and you get only 1/4 the stunning a monk your level would.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 08:22 PM
Diamond Soul is a 13th level ability and Spring Attack doesn't matter if you can't do anything meaningful with your one attack per round*.

(*Well, it keeps you safe-ish... until the enemies realize you're at a convenient distance to avoid doing any battlefield control, to be safely targeted by enemy AoE attacks and to be charged.)


I'm still looking forward to hearing what you do for the party.

Ixahinon
2009-06-02, 08:24 PM
What people don't understand is that Monk is by and large a support class. The monk should scout ahead/be ahead of the party, and when he notices danger, use his 60ft movement speed or whatever level he's at to Beline back to the party and notify.

The monk should be in battle ahead of the party, perhaps with a ranger or some other scout class, 'softening' up the troop of orcs spotted heading towards the party camp, then using his insane movement speed to make a full retreat out of there, to group up with the party for the full assault.

The monkisn't suppose to be a baddass 'I hit you for 1,000,000,000 points of damage' damager...because he is a support roll in battle. The Monk is suppose to use his stunning fist/tripping/grappling/pinning/tumbling skills to make the fighter or barbarian kill the enemy, not him

No arguement for HP...I think he should have d12 too.

The problem is everyone wants Monk to be a guy that can kill everything with a twist of his thumb, when that is not what the class is all about at all. If you want to be a major reason for damage in a party, play a class that offers that, or take a prestigue that makes monk more damaging. I'm not saying Monk can't be this...but if you want him to be a killer, then you need to actually work at it, where as Fighter and Barbarian are already killers.

Sadly, these days, D&D is about kill count, and how powerful you can be..not so much about RP and class roles anymore. If you aren't slaying 7 people a day, the class sucks.

Doc Roc
2009-06-02, 08:29 PM
Okay, so... Let's use your namesake as an example, what does a monk do to a Great Golden Wrym?

In core or out of core, you're beat by a spellcaster. In core, that sorcerer posted a while back will do more useful things than you. Out of core, the sorcerer will do enough damage to the dragon to kill it beyond death. Outside of core, I can roll you a decent monk, but it's going to be absolutely dip-tastic by the time I'm done. In short, hardly a monk in anything but name and shape.

Please, by all means though, grapple that dragon. I'll be over here with my farking camera. :) I don't think monk is better as a support character than a trip-build fighter. I think it's expressly worse than one of my war weaver gishes. But let's say we ignore gish builds for support roles. How are you supporting if you can't fill more than a single narrow and frequently useless role?

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 08:32 PM
What people don't understand is that Monk is by and large a support class.

Then he should have support abilities.

Right now, he's the guy who runs ahead until he finds a door or a bad guy and then stands around awkwardly because he doesn't have the abilities to support doing anything.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-06-02, 08:35 PM
Diamond Soul is a 13th level ability and Spring Attack doesn't matter if you can't do anything meaningful with your one attack per round*.

(*Well, it keeps you safe-ish... until the enemies realize you're at a convenient distance to avoid doing any battlefield control, to be safely targeted by enemy AoE attacks and to be charged.)


I'm still looking forward to hearing what you do for the party.

Whoops, I thought it came with Perfect Self.

For the party? A melee role. You can't deal a zillion points of damage or kill an army a round. You don't have to be broken (or even perfect) to be good. There are some enemies monks shine against. At higher levels, they get unarmed damage dies no weapon can match. Used wisely, and with Spring Attack, the monk makes a good combatant. The fighter is toast if the monster has 30 ft speed, a high attack bonus, and high damage. Against the same opponent, a low-level monk can keep pace with it, and at mid- and nigh- levels, he can outrun such a beast with ever-increasing ease.

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-02, 08:44 PM
At higher levels, they get unarmed damage dies no weapon can match.That's because at higher levels, it's not about weapon damage dice anymore. When I roll damage to see how lethal Malnar the Barbarian is on a full attack, I only use two dice, and I can easily expect 120 damage, and he's on the lower end of the optimization pool.

Faleldir
2009-06-02, 08:46 PM
At higher levels, they get unarmed damage dies no weapon can match.
As I said in another Monk thread, base weapon damage is insignificant at higher levels. When your Barbarian friend is doing +160 Power Attack damage on a charge, it doesn't matter what weapon he's using. When your Rogue/Swashbuckler friend is doing +10d6 Sneak Attack damage with 7 attacks per round, it doesn't matter what weapon he's using. For a melee class, 2d10+STR damage is nothing to brag about.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 08:48 PM
. At higher levels, they get unarmed damage dies no weapon can match. Used wisely, and with Spring Attack, the monk makes a good combatant.

If your entire combat contribution to a party is a single unarmed attack per round* and a complete lack of melee presence, my question stands.


*Assuming you can beat enemy defences and actually make that one attack per round.

Ixahinon
2009-06-02, 08:54 PM
I don't know why, but a Monk's 53? damage per round at level 20 -- combined with a complete lack of melee presence -- fails to impress me.

It does me. A monk that does 53 damage per round, and has the feats to run 60 or so feat out of the way, and keep doing so over and over until the creature is finally flusterated enough to do something stupid like charge after him (Letting the real damagers get attacks of opportunity), is very helpful in my opinion.

I'm not gonna be a statitic whore and point all this out..someone else can do it...all I'm gonna do it equate it to a sniper with a knack of getting out of situations vs. a Grunt with a shotgun blasting away up close.

The shotgunner is gonna do a crapton of damage, but is likely gonna get shot down just as fast by the enemy that is close enough to retaliate. The sniper isn't gonna hurt him much, in fact it might be a fraction compared to the health the creature as...but he's gonna do a lot of it over time, and he's probably not gonna get hit at all while doing it.

On top of that...as stated before..if you are fighting something stupid, like a raged barbarian, or something with low intelligence, or get's flusterated easier...it's possible the enemy might get enraged by the constant attacks by the monk, yet the enemy not being able to do anything about it...and so it charges after the monk with the intent of ending his life..thus allowing those 'shotgunners' to blast away for free.

As I stated before...everyone now 'n days is worried about doing 1,000hp a hit..because that signifies coolness. When in actuality, only doing 50-60 a hit...but killing something without being hit..or rarely being hit...is far more impressive in my eyes.

Doc Roc
2009-06-02, 08:57 PM
Until someone answers me, or accepts my arena challenge, I say we leave this horse dead and stop the revivify+beating cycles.

I will duel you with my "stupid" barbarian. Let us do this thing as men do, each imagining we possess an unfair advantage when in fact we are but bugs.

Faleldir
2009-06-02, 09:01 PM
As I stated before...everyone now 'n days is worried about doing 1,000hp a hit..because that signifies coolness. When in actuality, only doing 50-60 a hit...but killing something without being hit..or rarely being hit...is far more impressive in my eyes.
Show me a single-class Monk build that can do 50 damage AND move at least 30 feet in the same turn and I'll agree with you.

EDIT: Damn it, I need to learn to shut up.