Vaarsuvius: An Apologia (or, V is NOT 'stupid')

[choie]

Let me state upfront: I'm not a D&D player. It's a cool game but I just don't have experience in it. I come to OOTS as a reader who views the strip as a story, with humor and plot and characters rather than stats and optimizing and stuff like that there. So I hope this discussion can be confined to talking about OOTS as a narrative, rather than a game strip.

I've been reading lots of posts where Vaarsuvius is lambasted for his/her behavior during the Xykon battle, and to a lesser degree for all V's done since the splice. Another thread calls V "stupid." Many call V egotistical and power-crazed.

Well, I'm not going to argue with egotistical -- how can I? Arrogance is V's calling card. Nor will I deny that V's not thinking things through correctly, doing no planning or strategizing more than "rush in, blast things to bits." Power-crazed? Clearly and quite literally. But it's more than these issues. A lot more.

These events aren't occuring in a vacuum. I wonder if some people have forgotten that V's arc began with the fall of Azure City. Y'know, it was only in #623 that we learned why Vaarsuvius hasn't tranced in several months: because s/he has been suffering through this brutal memory of a personal failure that resulted in several deaths, as V. watched helplessly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). Vaarsuvius, whose life is devoted to the conviction that arcane magic can solve everything, reacted with a textbook case of post-traumatic stress disorder: privately blaming him/herself for not doing enough, for not knowing enough, for not being powerful enough.

Despite all V accomplished that day -- IMHO s/he had a greater effect on the action that day than any other single person did (excepting Xykon and Miko, of course) -- in the end V still thought (thinks) that the efforts were useless. V couldn't save him/herself from the Death Knight; V couldn't save Roy from dying; V ran out of spells and was useless; V couldn't do a damn thing but listen to the pleas for help and curses and screams of the soldiers as they died. V just wasn't good enough.

That trauma was followed by months of trying and failing to find Haley, V's closest friend. Despite obsessively working harder and more single-mindedly than anyone else, nothing worked. Obviously V just wasn't good enough.

Fast forward to today -- indeed, less than an hour ago, OOTS-time. After yet another of those horrible trance-dreams, V was attacked when Mama Black Dragon came calling and tortured V with both physical and psychological brutality, threatening V's family and painfully reminding V that there was absolutely nothing s/he could do to save them. Because V just wasn't good enough.

So the fiends show up and V gets the chance of a lifetime, offered the soul splices that would give V all the power s/he needs to protect Kyrie and the kids, absolutely and without question. Oh, and a ridiculously convoluted alternative filled with weak links where at any point the plan could fail, plus it required admitting what a failure s/he was. Is it any surprise V took the power-packed version? V, who finds it difficult in the best of circumstances to rely on others? V, who is at last offered a way to be, yes, good enough?

Thus exhausted, desperate, frenzied with understandable fear and rage -- and with a new, terrifying and barely controllable amount of power -- V now takes care of Kyrie and the kids, plus blasts MBD and her family to kingdom come. Finally an unqualified success! But Kyrie doesn't react the way V expected. Kyrie treats V like a monster, also understandable considering the torture s/he's witnessed and experienced. Apparently everything V did wasn't enough after all. Well, there's still so much more V could do. Maybe now, with all this power, V can fix everything s/he hasn't been able to for so long! But V's already lost one splice, and the clock is ticking. V has to act fast, no time for explanations, no time to do anything except hurry off and save the day because that is the only thing that will stop those damn soldiers from screaming and cursing and dying every time V closes his/her eyes.

Filled with magic's version of PCP, brimming with a false sense of omnipotence and powers V's never had before, using every ounce of strength to maintain the remaining splices, and constantly cheered on to acts of mayhem by the murderous voices, V flys off and tries to save the world and fix everything and prove that s/he's not a failure to both the rest of the Order and above all to him/herself. Alas, V is thwarted every step of the way. V isn't the one to find Haley, isn't the one to reunite the Order, isn't even as useful as freakin' Elan, whose shiny new awesome "Cure Light Wounds" spell is made much of while V's own might is unappreciated and barely hanging on by a thread (and, btw, costing V's soul more and more torture after death by the second -- so V thinks, anyway). Sure, V teleports 'em all to the island, but the real magic is being done by Durkon -- resurrecting Roy.

Well, screw that. Wait ten more minutes while Mr. Divine Magic Dwarf gets all the glory? With each minute going towards V's debt to the fiends? While V is still being urged by the soul splices, who are champing at the bit to kill? Here at last is an opportunity to quiet all the voices, all the doubters, all the self-hatred and those horrible screaming soldiers once and for all. Kill the lich, do it alone, do it now, because to wait means failure, to call on others means failure, to do anything but blast Xykon to smithereens all by V's lone self is complete, utter failure.

After all these months of suffering and frustration, V will never again get as opportune a moment to prove that Vaarsuvius the Mage is good enough.

That's V's state of mind when s/he performs that Epic Teleport into the cloister. It's not a matter of merely being 'stupid' or egotistical. It's both and neither and much, much more.

As you can probably tell from this dissertation :) I have a great deal of compassion for Vaarsuvius. I think Rich has created his deepest characterization in V's arc, rivalled only by Redcloak in Start of Darkness (and IMO this is even better). The tale he's telling is way more nuanced than "V's egotistical and has a low WIS stat, and all wizards are hubristic, so this is just more of the same."

V's been brought to this point by everything that's happened over the past several months, and it's perfectly understandable and in character. It's a remarkable and sympathetic tale that, I hope, ends in a chance for knowledge and redemption.

[Bastian]

You have quite hit the mark :smallwink: Well done!

[Olo Demonsbane]

Nice arguement. I quite agree, though have never seen it phrased so eloquently.

And that was much nicer to read than Plato's Apologia, let me tell you.

[Optimystik]

TL;-

Just kidding, I did read it. And I agree, this is the best characterization since Redcloak. It's also a much-needed slap in the face to the opponents of "I...I must succeed" being the 4 words; you described his mental state at that point perfectly. Bravo!

Now if only we could get Durkon to make some kind of fiendish bargain for his character to grow :smalltongue:

[Estelindis]

I liked it too. Well-written! I think we can see that V made some mistakes while under all this stress. However one comes down on the side of him being more right or more wrong, what really matters is that his actions made sense from his point of view - the character has internal consistency.

[Ancalagon]

Now if only we could get Durkon to make some kind of fiendish bargain for his character to grow :smalltongue:

Or a celestial one for Belkar... "For the greater Evil... I... I have to deal with the celestials..."

[Silverraptor]

It's so nice to see something that puts V in better light. Especially after all that has happened to her.:smallsmile:

[Ellye]

Yep. The main thing here, I think, is that for us (the people that check this website on a daily basis) it seems like that nightmare on the island, the whole ABD thing, Kyrie's reaction and such were, like, years ago. When in-comic all of that was twenty minutes ago.

[sam79]

Great stuff; a comprehensive reading of a character I feel huge sympathy for. I am also in hope that she is able to find something in the way of redemption.

While this is an admirable Apologia, I still think that V could fairly (if harshly) be described as stupid right now; but we see here the reasons for her stupidity, based both on her own personality, and the huge external pressures.

Note to Self: Must buy Start of Darkness. And Origin of the PC's. And the rest of the books.

[Starscream]

I agree, you really hit the nail on the head with this one.

[Silverraptor]

I just realised I posted in the "V is stupid" Thread earlier. I feel dirty inside.:smallfrown:

[Kaytara]

Wonderful post. Couldn't agree more, and you've put it more eloquently than I could ever hope to...
One of the reasons I sympathise with Vaarsuvius is because I have trouble imagining how the average person could do any better or make any better decisions under those circumstances and psychological state of mind.
And really, I think many people are underestimating the power of guilt complexes. V has been reliving the same nightmare over and over, in vivid detail, every night for many months. That alone should be enough to drive the average person partially insane, and with everything else added to the mix...

I would like to add that I think it also explains perfectly V's rashness in his behaviour on the fleet - both his handling of the giant devil and his eager execution of Kubota, when he could finally just solve a big problem with a single, neat spell.

Again, amazing post... nice to see that you've decided to delurk. :) It is with posts like these that history and public opinion are influenced.

[Optimystik]

I think choie is a pretty cool pixie, eh posts great thread and doesn't afraid of anything :smallwink:

[sam79]

One of the reasons I sympathise with Vaarsuvius is because I have trouble imagining how the average person could do any better or make any better decisions under those circumstances and psychological state of mind.

And not only the average person; could any of the other Order members, even though they lack V's somewhat obsessive ambition for ultimate arcane power, do any better in similar circumstances? Could any of them, for example, turn down a pact with the fiends if their sister/lover/cat/huge bag of gold (delete as appropriate) was in such peril? Durkon, maybe. Roy...hmm, not sure. The others? I doubt they'd hold out any longer than V.

[B.I.T.T.]

Pretty darn convincing argument (much better then my theory about V having too much mayonase on his peanut butter sandwhich). I agree with your characterisation. V does have good intentions. Which, of course, is what the road to hell is paved with.

[Kaytara]

And not only the average person; could any of the other Order members, even though they lack V's somewhat obsessive ambition for ultimate arcane power, do any better in similar circumstances? Could any of them, for example, turn down a pact with the fiends if their sister/lover/cat/huge bag of gold (delete as appropriate) was in such peril? Durkon, maybe. Roy...hmm, not sure. The others? I doubt they'd hold out any longer than V.

You know, I've seen some people argue that it's V's own "fault" for expecting so much of himself that he took all these defeats so hard. That's just... I mean, "fault"? It is a character trait, flaw, weakness. Everybody has them. Just because V's happens to be arrogance doesn't make it worse than someone else's.

More to the point, it is very easy for me to imagine Haley or Roy or Elan going through a similar arc. Especially Elan - after all, he sort of did that. Elan, the spoony bard, found himself in a situation where his childishness and lack of thought put into his own abilities resulted in the death of someone close to him, when a single spell could have done the trick. That little incident alone, completely isolated and by itself, was enough to cause major character growth for him and sober up a little. So far so good, but had he been hit by a chain of events similar to Therkla's death, tragedies resulting from his care-free ways, is it that hard to imagine that it might have completely broken him?


V does have good intentions. Which, of course, is what the road to hell is paved with.

So is the road to heaven. :smallwink:

[Bastian]

I was sort of waiting for Kaytara to answer enthusiastically to this post :smallwink: But I expected her to bump in sooner :smalltongue:

And yes, from a psychological and character development point of view, V *had* to undergo to that much pressure. Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make proud. What for childlike Elan would be a near-fatal blow, (sanity-wise) for V would be barely a scratch.

It is also true that strenght of character is based also on flexibility and lack of (inflated) ego. From that perspective Elan has less chances to be broken.

[Dagren]

More to the point, it is very easy for me to imagine Haley or Roy or Elan going through a similar arc. Especially Elan - after all, he sort of did that. Elan, the spoony bard, found himself in a situation where his childishness and lack of thought put into his own abilities resulted in the death of someone close to him, when a single spell could have done the trick. That little incident alone, completely isolated and by itself, was enough to cause major character growth for him and sober up a little. So far so good, but had he been hit by a chain of events similar to Therkla's death, tragedies resulting from his care-free ways, is it that hard to imagine that it might have completely broken him?True, I think "completely broken" is a very good way to describe Elan's likely reaction to what V has gone through.

I was sort of waiting for Kaytara to answer enthusiastically to this post :smallwink: But I expected her to bump in sooner :smalltongue:Ha ha, me too. I guess it's a good thing when people know where you stand.

[Trizap]

This OP deserves an internet, someone get choie an internet, this is frackin' brilliant.

[Ted The Bug]

I gotta say, that was one of the best character analyses I've ever read on this forum, especially considering how well-written it was. /agree with Trizap.

[Forbiddenwar]

Excellent thread and description. I tried to say something similar in the "V is stupid thread" but don't have your eloquence.

BTW: "Effect" is correct

[choie]

Wow, you guys are really kind, thanks so much. I've been lurking for quite a while (this is my second post) and have been too nervous to post anything, mainly because I'm so unknowledgable in D&D, though I've been trying to pick up as much as possible. It was Vaarsuvius's latest arc that introduced me to OOTS (in particular, the strip where the ABD first reveals her plan to kill V's kids), and so I've grown particularly fond of the elf.

Anyway I'm just glad I didn't make a fool of myself. And especially glad to see that there are so many others who sympathize with V and applaud this plot.


TL;-

Just kidding, I did read it. And I agree, this is the best characterization since Redcloak. It's also a much-needed slap in the face to the opponents of "I...I must succeed" being the 4 words; you described his mental state at that point perfectly. Bravo!

Now if only we could get Durkon to make some kind of fiendish bargain for his character to grow :smalltongue:

I know, right? I've been looking at the "Character appearances" thread and was pretty surprised to see how much lower the counts are for both V and Durkon. I guess Durkon had his own little solo adventure with whatserface, the Loki-worshipper, but that didn't really advance his character much except in the "gettin' some" arena.

Though of all the characters in OOTS, I think he's the least likely one (except perhaps O-Chul) to make such a bargain.


Yep. The main thing here, I think, is that for us (the people that check this website on a daily basis) it seems like that nightmare on the island, the whole ABD thing, Kyrie's reaction and such were, like, years ago. When in-comic all of that was twenty minutes ago.

Very true, Ellye. Reading "real time" can give you a warped sense of how much story-time has passed. I caught up through the archives fairly quickly, plus I've reread the whole Azure City arc a couple of times now since I love it so. In-story time is definitely easier to track that way. Starting with V's "nightmare" (or whatever you'd call it) in #623, we know V spent eight hours resting / reading "plotholes for Dummies." Then the Imp arrived, followed immediately by the ABD and IFCC, and then it's off to Ivyleaf, the fleet, Greysky, and finally the new Azure fleet home, all within twenty minutes! Man.


Wonderful post. Couldn't agree more, and you've put it more eloquently than I could ever hope to...

Again, amazing post... nice to see that you've decided to delurk. :) It is with posts like these that history and public opinion are influenced.

Thank you very much, and I highly doubt you'd have trouble being as eloquent -- your own posts have been such a pleasure to read and are a great influence that inspired me to delurk at last. :)


I think choie is a pretty cool pixie, eh posts great thread and doesn't afraid of anything :smallwink:

Heh. That is sooo far from being true! I'm a nervous nellie indeed.

Elan is, btw, my other favorite character, so it's interesting to compare their reactions to such traumatic events. I agree totally that Elan's is a much more, um, elastic psyche, shall we say? I mean, one has only to look at their interaction in 128 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html):


Elan: ...I mean, being a bard is pretty silly. You walk into dungeons and SING at people. Who could take that seriously?

Vaarsuvius: Being a wizard is not like that at all. One is always serious and studious, carefully examining and analyzing. One rarely has time for fun and games.

Elan is easily able to bounce back from problems. He's quick to feel anger/sorrow/joy but he's also over 'em just as fast. Look how quickly he goes from hurt feelings to elation after V. apologizes. (A pair of strips that, btw, are my favorite examples of V. not being without kindness or compassion -- I mean, look at V's expressions in the last few panels here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) -- s/he is miserable to see that s/he'd hurt Elan.)

Vaarsuvius has an outwardly cool personality and may be slower to bring to a boil, but I think once s/he finally gets those emotional defenses breached, it is that much harder to recover. Someone who values control is almost always more shaken and mortified when their strength isn't enough to protect them.

P.S. ForbiddenWar -- thanks! I already fixed it ... I inadvertently wrote "affect" originally. :)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

<snip> V's been brought to this point by everything that's happened over the past several months, and it's perfectly understandable and in character.


Nice post as others said. And it's true, V's state of mind is totally understandable. And V has actually accomplished quite a lot with his ultimate arcane power. And he has used his ultimate arcane power in clever ways. You could even argue he went alone against Xykon with good intentions. He just ran into one big epic obstacle when he confronted Xykon alone.



It's a remarkable and sympathetic tale that, I hope, ends in a chance for knowledge and redemption.

Ah but that's the tough part. Cause see, though we can understand why V goes evil, story justice demands commensurate retribution for heroes who turned to the Dark Side. Redemption, if any, will be a long hard road and partial at best.

Oh and V did turn evil. Not evil as in real evil but story evil.

V killed Kubota in cold blood...arguably evil.
V accepts soul splices..arguably evil.
V kills 1/4 of all black dragons, an entire family of beings, for no good reason...unquestionably story evil.



I've been lurking for quite a while (this is my second post) and have been too nervous to post anything, mainly because I'm so unknowledgable in D&D

And that's a bad thing???

[dragon_bagon]

*Claps* Bravo. What a well written and believable piece.

[Morgan Wick]

Yep. The main thing here, I think, is that for us (the people that check this website on a daily basis) it seems like that nightmare on the island, the whole ABD thing, Kyrie's reaction and such were, like, years ago. When in-comic all of that was twenty minutes ago.

Actually, in real time that was only about four months ago.

[Cúchulainn]

Great read. Unfortunately V and Redcloak will remain my least liked characters in the strip, but I can appreciate the time you took to hopefully clear some things up for some people, and your line of thought. Carry on.

[[TS] Shadow]

That was a really well written (if a bit too long; my attention span doesn't work as well on teh interwebs) post, OP. And I have to say, I can see your point and where you're coming from. However, I can't really agree with your opinion. V is definately not "stupid," but he is a bit self-absorbed and egotistical. Just look at how he talks during the time with his ultimate power. His reasons for obtaining the power were totally wrong, and his pride and belief that he is superior than even the most powerful of arcane casters has lead him into a near-death situation. I really just don't see him as sympathetically as you do.

EDIT: I'd like to point out that you're explaination for why V decided to go fight Xykon is the exact definition of egotism. V wanted the glory and recognition, so he went to go prove himself by taking down their main foe (ie, making himself seem better than everyone else.)

[Mystic Muse]

V killed Kubota in cold blood...arguably evil.
V accepts soul splices..arguably evil.
V kills 1/4 of all black dragons, an entire family of beings, for no good reason...unquestionably story evil.


first one is arguable but there are also ways to say it was a good action.

second one is EXTREMELY arguable.. he didn't even SELL his soul. he just gave it up for about 45 minutes.

third is actually questionable. it depends on what the alignment was of each victim in question. there's actually a possibility that almost all of them were good aligned. if they were all EVIL aligned however it'd be pretty easy to argue that the action was good or at the very least arguably neutral.

[[TS] Shadow]

first one is arguable but there are also ways to say it was a good action.

second one is EXTREMELY arguable.. he didn't even SELL his soul. he just gave it up for about 45 minutes.

third is actually questionable. it depends on what the alignment was of each victim in question. there's actually a possibility that almost all of them were good aligned. if they were all EVIL aligned however it'd be pretty easy to argue that the action was good or at the very least arguably neutral.

Running by my logic, all three acts are evil.

1. V had no idea who Kubota was or why he was tied up. What if Elan had the wrong man? (the fact that he didn't nonwithstanding) There's a reason why criminals on death row wait about 10 years before being executed; in case there is a mistake.

2. Tell the deva's that. I'm sure they'll understand...SARCASM.

3. Killing a bad man out of revenge is just as bad as killing a good man for money. Those dragons did nothing to V, and they don't deserve to die just because there is an off-chance the ABD's third cousin thrice removed will come and attack V's family again. (BTW, that excuse is really crappy. V just wanted to show his "ultimate power"/burn off some steam.)

[PANdemonium]

It was great to finally see someone post something like this. Well said!

[choie]

I sure can't deny the fact that I'm long-winded, heh. Sorry about that. Thanks for slogging through the dull wall of text anyway.

Of course Vaarsuvius's dialogue is arrogant (that's part and parcel of V's personality) and power-crazed. But the emphasis there is on crazed. I think poor Vaarsuvius's mind has been broken and has been steadily going off his/her rocker since Azure City fell.

So I'd argue insanity if I were V's attorney with whoever is in charge of True Neutral afterlife.* Might not be less evil, but more understandable and defensible. (Though of course, not to the victims and their families. Though on the bright side, V. eliminated all the ABD's family, so there's no one to kvetch. Way to go, elf dude! :belkar:)

Seriously, without wanting to get into the endless round of alignment arguments relating to V's actions against Kubata and the ABD's family, because that's too game-oriented and I'm not that interested or -- more importantly -- knowledgable enough to make a good case, I think a Neutral attorney might be able to claim a non-evil call for these actions. It'd take some dancing but it might be done. Many others better versed than I have taken it on here in the forums.

Anyway that's enough alignment chat from me! The purpose of my thread here was to get more into the pyschology of Vaarsuvius's arc, and how well-motivated if not 100% justified V's actions have been. As I said, I don't give a fig about what an optimized wizard should have done when going up against an enemy like Xykon -- hell, I don't even really know what an optimized wizard is! But I can completely believe that a broken-hearted, broken-minded elf who's exhausted beyond measure, frantic, desperate, miserable, frustrated, furious, and just plain freaked the heck out would act just as V. did. And I've been loving this arc like nobody's business. It's dark, it's funny (if you like black humor), and it is utterly fascinating every step of the way.

* Which wouldn't be a deva, surely? Aren't they just for Celestia? Don't know enough about this universe...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

first one is arguable but there are also ways to say it was a good action.

second one is EXTREMELY arguable.. he didn't even SELL his soul. he just gave it up for about 45 minutes.

third is actually questionable. it depends on what the alignment was of each victim in question. there's actually a possibility that almost all of them were good aligned. if they were all EVIL aligned however it'd be pretty easy to argue that the action was good or at the very least arguably neutral.

We can argue if you want, but I was not making a moral judgement or D&D alignment judgement per se.

There is evil, the moral concept in the "real" world. There is in-story evil. In-story evil is like "evil" in the real world but in-story, that is it is the moral concept of evil in-story. Or in other words it's a moral judgement, if you will, of a fictional character or action. For ex, when we say Xykon is evil we normally mean Xykon is evil in-story. Then there is evil which is an alignment axis in the game of D&D. This is related to "real" world evil and to in-story evil but at the same time each is distinct and different.

Then there is story evil. By this I mean not so much a judgement of a fictional action in-story but a judgement of the fictional action in and of itself (that is outside of the rest of the story's context) which compares unfavorably to the "real" world moral judgement of a similar action were it carried out in the real world. If the disconnect between the two gets too big, then there is a tension in the reading of the story. This tension is not universally felt by everyone.

A couple of examples may illustrate my point. Darth Vader is the Big Bad Evil Guy in the original Star Wars movies. But he is an annoying little kid and a boring young jedi at the start of the prequel movies. So we need a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon). In the Star Wars prequels we get two. First Anakin kills a entire village in revenge. Then he kills the cute little jedi kids. Granted, this was done in such a bad way that when I saw that I had already crossed the I Don't Care Horizon. Eventually, the charater of Anakin got his redemption moment.

Jean Grey. As Phoenix she "accidently" destroyed a planet with billions of innocent sentient beings. This led the X-men writers and editors to have problems of "conscience" with the story and to write her out of the story. Eventually the character of Jean Grey was redeemed and written back in to the story lines.

Now back to V. V killed the entire family of the mother dragon, including any good relatives (good as in good-aligned) if they existed. A similar act in the real world would by most be seen as callous, indiscriminate, excessive and evil. That is, executing the entire family of say a violent killer whether as revenge or as a precaution would normally be seen as callous, indiscriminate, excessive and evil. You of course may have your opinion.

Although I do think that the Familicide was an evil, I am ready to "forgive" the action. That is, I do sympathize with V and want V to be redeemed.

However, I sense a tension between my feelings in favor of V's eventual redemption and the enormity and callousness of the Familicide (judged by itself, outside the story context, and comparing it to what the equivalent act would be in the "real" world).

And I feel this tension is so great that it can only be resolved if V is receives commensurate justice in-story.

For me, curiously the same tension is not raised by Xykon. Xykon's acts are clearly evil in-story. And as a reader, I sort of revel in them. I am also aware the Xykon will eventually fail. And though I hope his end will be spectacular, I do not think he will get any sort of commensurate justice. I mean he's done a lot of evil. That is his "punishment" will not necessarily be in keeping with his "crimes". And in no way do I feel that "justice" is cheated by this in-story.


And I've been loving this arc like nobody's business. It's dark, it's funny (if you like black humor), and it is utterly fascinating every step of the way.
Agreed! And part of enjoying an arc such as this is to be aware of one's own reactions to such dark business.

[DarthCyberWolf]

Throwing my 2 copper in here...


Oh and V did turn evil. Not evil as in real evil but story evil.

V killed Kubota in cold blood...arguably evil.
V accepts soul splices..arguably evil.
V kills 1/4 of all black dragons, an entire family of beings, for no good reason...unquestionably story evil.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

"A good way to get a decent person to do something horrible is to convince them that they’re not responsible for their actions."

[choie]

HamsterOfTheGod, I agree completely that there's a tension between the sympathy Vaarsuvius's plight engenders and the obvious need for justice to be visited upon V. in order for any redemption arc to be earned. Very well stated.

Actually one could say the justice/redemption part has already begun, since so far V's gone through a helluva lot of torment: getting thrown around/tormented by the dragon, seeing Kyrie & the kids tortured, dismissed by Kyrie, and having the snot kicked out of him/her by Xykon -- a snot-kicking that may not be over with yet. And now here V. is, stuck in a living hell where s/he's trapped in exactly the same situation that broke V's mind in the first place. Heartbreaking (and brilliantly plotted on Rich's part).

Of course there needs to be more to come; Vaarsuvius needs to acknowledge what s/he's done and both take responsibility for these actions -- and conversely stop blaming him/herself for things s/he couldn't help. Atonement and forgiveness must be consciously chosen and sought.

But that's the fun of a redemption arc (for me): I LOVE hard-won redemptions, where a character goes through hell and with pain and sacrifice comes out a better person. It's my favorite type of plot, bar none. And we haven't had one yet in OOTS. Miko didn't get one; Belkar's faking it. I think V. is both smart enough and a good enough person (yes, dammit, I said good!) to change his/her ways.

All in all, I think the punishment will be way worse than V's "crimes," which to me are the result of V's screwed up, not-thinking-straight psyche. I'm afraid I am fairly resigned that V's fate will not be a happy one. Justice is harsh, and the stakes are just too high. Spec:

I think that when the fiends wind up using V for their nefarious purposes, related to the Gates/Snarl, V will somehow sacrifice him/herself to get out of the deal and save either the Order or the whole world.

But I don't wanna think about that now. Sigh. I'm just hoping V gets some measure of a victory in the coming strips. And I want V to forgive him/herself. :(

[NamonakiRei]

Whew! I must say, that was great. (I prefer Redcloak's characterization in Start of Darkness. Still, that's just me)

I like the way you describe what has happened to V over this time. It is quite true, V feels like she's not good enough, because he's spent a life of believing she could achieve anything through arcane magic. She's also always had a great ego, but a bad self-esteem*.

Can I say something? Add my two... uh... my two CP in this?


Despite all V accomplished that day -- IMHO s/he had a greater effect on the action that day than any other single person did (excepting Xykon and Miko, of course) -- in the end V still thought (thinks) that the efforts were useless. V couldn't save him/herself from the Death Knight; V couldn't save Roy from dying; V ran out of spells and was useless; V couldn't do a damn thing but listen to the pleas for help and curses and screams of the soldiers as they died. V just wasn't good enough.

V was, as you say, a very influential figure to the battle. The problem I see with V is that he thinks she should've done more, when there actually wasn't anyone who could do anything. Haely was about to break down when Roy died, yet she didn't(though Durkon talked her out of despair and V didn't have that) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html)
Durkon could've despaired. Elan too. But they did their best to go over it, thinking they could resurrect him soon. Whereas V, his belief in arcane might shattered, no more spells left to cast, only left to run, finding pleading alies on his way to the boats, then raelizing all of her friends could've died, realizing Haely could be dead, and then not being able to do anything, not even scry on her... V could not handle it. I don't blame V. I think no one would've acted too different from V.

V felt not being good enough because V expected too much from himself. She thinks she HAS to do all, he HAS to be perfect, he HAS to be able to win. There has to be some reason behind this, even if we don't know it. But V was just freaked out. V could not help but feeling the whole world around her crumble. I don't think it's any wonder V feels this way you described. And V just had to be able to do something. After months of nightmares, failure, and a recen threat to the ones he loved the most, V took the offer the fiends gave him.

And then, Kyrie's rejection of this new V. The incapability of being useful to the Order. Having Elan being more useful than V. That just was too much. And having to wait ten freakin' minutes for the Dwarf who had "insulted" V to resurrect Roy? the one who had told her he was acting wrong? No way. V took this as an insult to her. Because V is very insecure, because V has had a low self esteem and thinks he's inferior to everyone else, so V has to show them he's great, that she can do it. Because it they praise V, then V will at least be able lo say, "Yes, I could. Witness my mighty power! With it I have saved you all!"

I hope that in time, V will be able to understand his own capacity, and forgive the things she blames himself for- some of this things weren't her fault in the first place, so why despair that way over them?-, and, well, get a goog ending. And/or redemption. Because V really needs that.

*Yes, bad self esteem. Don't forget that self esteem is the capacity to estimate your own weakness and strenghts. There should be a balanced number of both. If you find yourself way too good, or way too bad, you have a bad self esteem. :smalltongue:
... also, this post is a bit longer than intended.
Well, I gues that's what I had to say. Great theread!

[Forbiddenwar]

Quick note on OOTS alignment:
We've seen that alignment is centered around what the character believes, not necessarily what they do. Note Roy's judgement "You're trying"

We've also seen with Roy and not with Miko, that seeking redemption and forgiveness and honestly changing your life after acting evil or poorly, while still alive, makes evil actions less staining.

It would be ironic if V started in strip 1 as a true neutral character, the fiends hoped the deal would push V into Evil, and V results in a good character. I think it is also what is going to happen.

[DarksideAvatar]

V had all that power....and wasnt carrying a Undeath to Death spell?

Sheesh!

Come on. 1d4 HD worth of undead destroyed PER LEVEL of the caster!! Kaboom!!!! Later Xykon!!!

V was hovering at LEAST around 16th level right? On average thats 40 HD of undead wiped out. Sorry, Xykon might be tough, but thats instant destruction for him :)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

V had all that power....and wasnt carrying a Undeath to Death spell?

Sheesh!

Come on. 1d4 HD worth of undead destroyed PER LEVEL of the caster!! Kaboom!!!! Later Xykon!!!

V was hovering at LEAST around 16th level right? On average thats 40 HD of undead wiped out. Sorry, Xykon might be tough, but thats instant destruction for him :)

You know I just don't get it. First, if OotS is a game then it's based on an RPG game and RPG games are rigged -- in a good way. Death to Undeath allows a Will save. Which means, if OotS was an actual game DM'ed by Rich then he would have tweaked Xykon's Will save ahead of time to make any such "guaranteed" victory highly unlikely. From, the meta-gaming point of view, which always occurs over the table, one has to expect such planning from the DM especially with his main boss monster.

But OotS is not a game but a story and this thread is an evaluation of the character as a character in a story not an actual game. From the point of view of V as character in a story, V's actions were not stupid as was so well expressed in the OP.

In fact, all the "V should be able to defeat Xykon because V can just use tactic X" arguments come not from a consideration of the story as a story, nor from the point of view of playing the game as an RPG but from a related activity of optimizing D&D characters. Although optimization is fun in and of itself, it's relation to game play is far from direct. And, at least for me, character optimization has no relationship to the consistency, believabilty and enjoyability of the story.

[Shadowbane]

I heartily approve of the OP's words. You have nailed it, sir. Thank you.

[choie]

Thank you, Shadowbane! And thanks to HamsterOfTheGod for gently turning the discussion away from the game stats nightmare it seemed headed for. Although I kinda think that might've been a joke, but you never know! :smallamused:

Anyway: holy crap, I'm glad I started this thread yesterday. #657 offers some sweet, sweet turnaround for my favorite character. Spoiling just in case someone hasn't had the chance to read the strip yet:

I'm so proud of :vaarsuvius: for having the guts to step back into the room. After the beating V just took, it would've made total sense to escape while the getting was good. But V just couldn't do it -- even though there's little hope of getting them both out of there alive, V had to do what s/he could. It's amazing what Rich can do with just a white chalk outline. (Which hopefully isn't a prediction -- since it looks rather like one of those police homicide victim outlines!)

Like the song says: "This could be the start of something big...!"

[Silverraptor]

Yes. V did an incredibly awesome act of good will. I think she realized that magic really wasn't eveything that she could do. She realized that healing O-chul from negative hitpoints was a good enough act of itself. I think the future looks bright for the new, more self-aware V. After getting out of Xykon's chokehold that is.

[Trizap]

.....and the latest comic only proved choie's analysis right. huh. if choie continues like this he might start analyzing everything else.

hope that doesn't happen, don't want the fun being taken out of wild mass guessing :smallbiggrin:

[DarksideAvatar]

You know I just don't get it. First, if OotS is a game then it's based on an RPG game and RPG games are rigged -- in a good way. Death to Undeath allows a Will save. Which means, if OotS was an actual game DM'ed by Rich then he would have tweaked Xykon's Will save ahead of time to make any such "guaranteed" victory highly unlikely. From, the meta-gaming point of view, which always occurs over the table, one has to expect such planning from the DM especially with his main boss monster.

But OotS is not a game but a story and this thread is an evaluation of the character as a character in a story not an actual game. From the point of view of V as character in a story, V's actions were not stupid as was so well expressed in the OP.

In fact, all the "V should be able to defeat Xykon because V can just use tactic X" arguments come not from a consideration of the story as a story, nor from the point of view of playing the game as an RPG but from a related activity of optimizing D&D characters. Although optimization is fun in and of itself, it's relation to game play is far from direct. And, at least for me, character optimization has no relationship to the consistency, believabilty and enjoyability of the story.

Dude :) it was a total joke :)

[daggaz]

Now if only we could get Durkon to make some kind of fiendish bargain for his character to grow :smalltongue:

You do realize this would only result in more drinking and his beard getting bigger?

[DarkLadyNyara]

Very, very well put. :smallsmile: V has hir flaws, but xie is not stupid. Capable of making stupid decisions while under an incredible amount of stress? Yes. Who isn't? It's gonna be interesting to see how this arc plays out.

[Bastian]

Shadow;6180798']

EDIT: I'd like to point out that you're explaination for why V decided to go fight Xykon is the exact definition of egotism. V wanted the glory and recognition, so he went to go prove himself by taking down their main foe (ie, making himself seem better than everyone else.)

Yup. The amount of psychological introspection of this comic never fails to surprise me. So far, we have seen superbly portraited egoic traits, narcissism, post-traumatic stress disorder, and more all consistant and believable. They were hinted in the interactions of the characters and now enlarged due to the critical situations. I love in particular Elan slowing becoming a man: it's the archetype of 'Journey of the Hero'. Not having had a father, and looking for one in the people around him (Roy was the first object of his projections), the need of a mentor, his slowly assuming responsibility...Haley is pure gold. Hard not to root for any of them.

Also, love your sig.

[Greep]

Mainly what I find funny is this...

Forum members about 3 weeks ago:

V obviously has enough power to kill xykon but won't attack him for story reasons.

Forum members nowadays:

V's a moron for attacking xykon.

[Dark Faun]

Very good post choie. I agree completely. In addition to that, though it was not touched upon in the post, I cannot help but feel Vaarsuvius' insanity makes her closer to Miko, whom I love like V in spite of all of her flaws. I guess I identify myself with them because all of their actions are very understandable to me (although I doubt I would go as far as Familicide even as a precaution).


I guess Durkon had his own little solo adventure with whatserface, the Loki-worshipper, but that didn't really advance his character much except in the "gettin' some" arena.
Durkon's one-night-stand with Hilgya didn't advance his character; it established it.

[Undead Prince]

Let me state upfront: I'm not a D&D player. It's a cool game but I just don't have experience in it. I come to OOTS as a reader who views the strip as a story, with humor and plot and characters rather than stats and optimizing and stuff like that there. So I hope this discussion can be confined to talking about OOTS as a narrative, rather than a game strip.

Most of V's acute stupidity comes precisely from the D&D setting. He is stupid in utilisation of his powers. Someone who doesn't know the rules of the game can hardly appreciate the full scale of V's stupidity.


Vaarsuvius, whose life is devoted to the conviction that arcane magic can solve everything

That's true, you know. Arcane magic is the ultimate tool, which can solve basically every problem there could be in a D&D setting, if you have enough of the magic and the brain to use it (which should be no prob for Wizards with their genius-level Intelligence).


reacted with a textbook case of post-traumatic stress disorder: privately blaming him/herself for not doing enough, for not knowing enough, for not being powerful enough.

Again, that's the truth and not a psychological affectation, as you seem to be implying. V did not do enough, did not know enough, was not powerful enough: both in absolute terms, and with regard to his 14th level Wizard status.


V couldn't save him/herself from the Death Knight;

Banning Necromancy and Conjuration was a fundamentally bad move in the first place. But even with his available resources, V could do much, much more. What's a Death Knight against a Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm), for instance?


V couldn't save Roy from dying;

The dumb fighter brought it on himself. And it's the cleric's job to keep the meatshields alive.


V ran out of spells and was useless

That's why real mages have plenty of scrolls, wands, use-activated items, constructs and/or undead minions, cohorts, dominated thralls etc. to continue with the fighting even when the daily allotment of spells is exhausted.

V got Scribe Scroll at Level 1. Did we ever see him use it? That's stupidity for you.


V couldn't do a damn thing but listen to the pleas for help and curses and screams of the soldiers as they died.

Sweet, sweet music 8=]


V just wasn't good enough.

Nah, he's neutral at best 8=))


That trauma was followed by months of trying and failing to find Haley, V's closest friend. Despite obsessively working harder and more single-mindedly than anyone else, nothing worked. Obviously V just wasn't good enough.

No, it was because he was against epic-level obstacles (Xykon and his Cloister). There was nothing V could have done against the Cloister, short of using Disjunction - a 9th level spell to which he has no access.


Fast forward to today -- indeed, less than an hour ago, OOTS-time. After yet another of those horrible trance-dreams, V was attacked when Mama Black Dragon came calling and tortured V with both physical and psychological brutality, threatening V's family and painfully reminding V that there was absolutely nothing s/he could do to save them. Because V just wasn't good enough.

Again, no. The ABD with extra sorcerer levels was (in layman terms) a very high challenge for V. A smartly played V would have certainly wiped the floor with it; but the average player would have a really hard time. So it's not V, it's the PLOT again.


Is it any surprise V took the power-packed version?

No, not at all. V was actually willing to sell his soul for something much less (as his dialogue with Quarr indicates), and instead he got more power he could dream of for merely a "lease".


Thus exhausted,

You forget that the Splice gave V the effect of a full rest. He was not exhausted.


Apparently everything V did wasn't enough after all.

Apparently not for a dumb and selfish person like Kyrie.



because that is the only thing that will stop those damn soldiers from screaming and cursing and dying every time V closes his/her eyes.

Yeah, that's definitely a weakness. Too damn sensitive.


V isn't the one to find Haley, isn't the one to reunite the Order, isn't even as useful as freakin' Elan, whose shiny new awesome "Cure Light Wounds" spell is made much of while V's own might is unappreciated and barely hanging on by a thread

This is not an explanation for stupidity. The failures should have only egged V more towards self-perfection.


Kill the lich, do it alone, do it now, because to wait means failure, to call on others means failure, to do anything but blast Xykon to smithereens all by V's lone self is complete, utter failure.

After all these months of suffering and frustration, V will never again get as opportune a moment to prove that Vaarsuvius the Mage is good enough.

That's V's state of mind when s/he performs that Epic Teleport into the cloister. It's not a matter of merely being 'stupid' or egotistical. It's both and neither and much, much more.

These are not real reasons for V to be so stupid about his battle with an epic level lich. As we know by now, a simple Invisibility spell would've done much to increase his chances of success. Him barging in Xykon's throne room without any preparation is akin to a fighter forgetting his full plate armor at the camp while he rushes to battle naked.

All his "deep psychological torment" and the desire to succeed should have made him more focused on the task, not dumber.

The only plot reason for V's stupidity there exists is that the Splices take so much effort to be maintained, they impose something like a -10 penalty on the user's Intelligence and Wisdom scores. Which, of course, makes the entire Splice deal absolutely worthless, as you get the power, but are robbed of the brains and the will to use it effectively.

This is not to say V's arc is not well-written, captivating and engaging.

It's just that V does perform stupidly, and there are no good reasons for this except the Plotted Splice penalty which in turn invalidates the Plotted Splice benefits.



It's a remarkable and sympathetic tale that, I hope, ends in a chance for knowledge and redemption.

Redemption probably, Knowledge - never. OoTS characters are severely impaired in that department, and I'm afraid the cure will never be found. What V's adventure might achieve is dull his healthy lust for power and replace it with ineffectual moping around in regret for his past misdeeds. It would, however, have a Plot-friendly side effect of gimping the most potentially powerful character in the party and re-establishing Roy as the Head Honcho.

Which is the really sad part for me.

Kudos for the apologia, though.

[Undead Prince]

Mainly what I find funny is this...

Forum members about 3 weeks ago:

V obviously has enough power to kill xykon assuming V has half a brain, but won't attack him for story reasons or if he does attack, there will be a huge battle with unclear outcome, but both Xykon and V would likely survive, with V likely losing the splice.

Forum members nowadays:

V's a moron for attacking xykon being a moron.

Fixed.

Unless you were talking about some other forum members, in which case, please specify.

[Omegonthesane]

@Undead Prince:
OOTS is not Tippyverse. OOTS does not abide to the exact letter of the rules in every given case, and it is possible that the very laws of the universe itself are exacting the kind of cheese filtering that is normally left to the DM. Namely, removing cheap rules exploits from the game so Wizards don't become powerful enough to never need anyone else's help.

[Agroking]

Wow. You articulated everything you wanted to say with complete emotional fluency. I am Elinguis to your beautiful post.

[warmachine]

Vaarsuvius' stupidity is being unwise. No matter how many defenses you have, there are still myriad ways you can be in trouble or distracted. The arcane spellcasting zapping runes are an example. A Thunderstone induced 20% spell failure could wreck a critical spell at a critical time. An arrow shot by a 1st level minion and a failed Concentration check. A Silent Image. All manner of potential delays that he can't afford against an sorcerer lich with high level spells and plenty of HP. And no matter how powerful he is, he can only cast two spells per round to deal with Xykon and whatever unknown defenses or minions are present. Teleporting in blind and alone is, thus, unwise.

Vaarsuvius does indeed have a meter running but 15 minutes times 3 is not much of a loss, especially for a long living species. Those 15 minutes can get 5 upper-mid level adventurers to deal with the distractions he might encounter, leaving him to concentrate on Xykon. Redcloak probably wouldn't have cast True Seeing if Belkar was stabbing him nor Tsukiko cast Mind Fog if Haley was shooting her and calling her a skank.

Vaarsuvius is stupid for being impatient and not investing the time to wait for some heavy hitting henchmen.

[Vemynal]

possible lesson learned? ^_^

Redemption for sure!


And while V might not be the one to put the pointy object in the skeleton V is the one who set him up to do it, so chalk up a success on hir part^^


I also find it funny that this whole arc has had the wizard, generally one of the most useful classes, being completely useless^^

[tribble]

Again, that's the truth and not a psychological affectation, as you seem to be implying. V did not do enough, did not know enough, was not powerful enough: both in absolute terms, and with regard to his 14th level Wizard status.


by this logic, it's Bruce Wayne's fault he wasnt the Godd*mn Batman when his parents were killed. lolwut?





That's why real mages have plenty of scrolls, wands, use-activated items, constructs and/or undead minions, cohorts, dominated thralls etc. to continue with the fighting even when the daily allotment of spells is exhausted.

right, because it would just be silly to assume he DID, and used them mostly offscreen.





No, it was because he was against epic-level obstacles (Xykon and his Cloister). There was nothing V could have done against the Cloister, short of using Disjunction - a 9th level spell to which he has no access.
he didnt know that. you do understand this, right?




No, not at all. V was actually willing to sell his soul for something much less (as his dialogue with Quarr indicates), and instead he got more power he could dream of for merely a "lease".
ya know, there is this other dude who traded his soul for someone elses. (and thats exactly what V was doing, too. remember those necromantic bindings the dragon talked about?) He was a long-haired rebel from the boonies who hung out with prostitutes and such. his name was Jesus.



You forget that the Splice gave V the effect of a full rest. He was not exhausted.
Citations or GTFO.



Apparently not for a dumb and selfish person like Kyrie.
you...youre joking, right? V left kyrie to wander about looking for power. V left K. but then, after seeing him curbstomp a dragon, Kyrie then proceeds to brandish a stick at V and tell V to leave K's spouse and children alone, because K thinks a demon or something has possesed V. you're saying that standing up to an outsider you just watched curbstomp a dragon the size of a motel for a person who left you to look for power is selfish? Kyrie is a friggin' hero. I dont care if it wasnt actually a case of posession, the point is that Ky was willing to do it.





This is not an explanation for stupidity. The failures should have only egged V more towards self-perfection.
said the man who owns a computer, internet access, and has the lesiure time to read a comic like this, play DnD, and Post on forums about them. go to Africa, talk to some refugees who saw everything they ever knew torn apart and probably got raped into the bargain. you gonna say they were "stupid" because they couldnt escape and its their own damn fault?





All his "deep psychological torment" and the desire to succeed should have made him more focused on the task, not dumber.
you fail psychology forever. after traumas of this kind, many people are incapable of thinking the same way they did before. again, go work with some people in central africa and then come and say this again. hell, dont work with them. do some F*cking research, that ought to be enough.:smallfurious:

[The Dark Fiddler]

Citations or GTFO.



That was stated explicitly by the fiends.

[JonestheSpy]

V was, as you say, a very influential figure to the battle. The problem I see with V is that he thinks she should've done more, when there actually wasn't anyone who could do anything. Haely was about to break down when Roy died, yet she didn't(though Durkon talked her out of despair and V didn't have that) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html)
Durkon could've despaired. Elan too. But they did their best to go over it, thinking they could resurrect him soon. Whereas V, his belief in arcane might shattered, no more spells left to cast, only left to run, finding pleading alies on his way to the boats, then raelizing all of her friends could've died, realizing Haely could be dead, and then not being able to do anything, not even scry on her... V could not handle it. I don't blame V. I think no one would've acted too different from V.



Chiming in on this great thread to throw in a little more psycholanalysis.

Reading the above post, it occurred to me for the first time that during the seige V was acting apart from the rest of the group. Haley, Elan, and Durkon all had eachother for support (and of course Belkar had his homicidal glee to keep his spirits up), but V was just surrounded by stangers that V couldn't save. That kind of thing can make a huge difference - and of course V just became further and further isolated within hirself as time went on.

Oh, and I can't help adding that the execution of Kubota was IMO chaotic, not evil. Wouldn't have worked morally in the real world, but in the OotSverse V did in fact have enough clues to deduce that Kubota was an evil villain who would be wasting massive amounts of precious time with a drawn out trial that would make the fleet even more unstable(and thus distracting), when the world was in urgent need of saving. Saying "Screw the system, I'm handling this myself" was an archetypal act of chaotic over law, I figure.

[Omegonthesane]

right, because it would just be silly to assume he DID, and used them mostly offscreen.
It probably would... but V is clearly not devoid of such preparations, judging by the scroll-slinging against titanium golems. Plus, I'm sure we didn't see V actually empty all his prepared spell slots in that battle, so he must have fired a lot off screen.


ya know, there is this other dude who traded his soul for someone elses. (and thats exactly what V was doing, too. remember those necromantic bindings the dragon talked about?) He was a long-haired rebel from the boonies who hung out with prostitutes and such. his name was Jesus.
Now, now, let's keep this professional. I'm not exactly willing to risk slamming for the mention of real life religion.


Citations or GTFO.
Explicit as part of the splice deal. V is not PHYSICALLY exhausted anymore. He may well be mentally exhausted, but as you point out, UP doesn't understand that concept.


you...youre joking, right? V left kyrie to wander about looking for power. V left K. but then, after seeing him curbstomp a dragon, Kyrie then proceeds to brandish a stick at V and tell V to leave K's spouse and children alone, because K thinks a demon or something has possesed V. you're saying that standing up to an outsider you just watched curbstomp a dragon the size of a motel for a person who left you to look for power is selfish? Kyrie is a friggin' hero. I dont care if it wasnt actually a case of posession, the point is that Ky was willing to do it.
Heroic and selfish are not mutually exclusive traits, and as I said before in another thread, K cannot be called good for intentionally rejecting V when he most needed her, and just after he'd saved her life. She didn't understand the significance of the fact he came back at all. She asked why he didn't drop the splice immediately after saving her, then slammed him as soon as he tried to answer her.


said the man who owns a computer, internet access, and has the lesiure time to read a comic like this, play DnD, and Post on forums about them. go to Africa, talk to some refugees who saw everything they ever knew torn apart and probably got raped into the bargain. you gonna say they were "stupid" because they couldnt escape and its their own damn fault?
What's that acronym again? Oh yeah, QFT. You do not think rationally after powers beyond your control have destroyed your entire world. I don't speak from personal experience, and I'm probably too lazy and selfish to ever actually go help those people, but it doesn't take a genius to realise that your mental state is affected by reality.


you fail psychology forever. after traumas of this kind, many people are incapable of thinking the same way they did before. again, go work with some people in central africa and then come and say this again. hell, dont work with them. do some F*cking research, that ought to be enough.:smallfurious:
Indeed, and I would hope UP would be more sympathetic if OotS wasn't set in a D&D universe - but it is, and he fails to comprehend that a wizard in a D&D universe might not be an emotionless and super-logical construct with no purpose or goals in their life other than being powerful for the sake of being powerful. Even V clearly intends to use his powers for good ends, even if he is obsessed with power.

The only grounds on which UP might possibly get even an inch of slack is that when he rules-lawyers, it's normally hilarious. I recall when he scripted how super-V vs Xykon would go if he was controlling both sides and playing them both to win if at all possible. Something like V Time-Stopping and buffing immediately followed by Xykon's "Time Stop. Now to show you REAL epic power."

[jimfromtx]

Very well-put. It's right on the mark.

[Poppy Appletree]

I love this thread.

[Ceric]

choie wins. I don't care what. She just wins.

[[TS] Shadow]

Also, love your sig.

Thanks.

On the newest strip (657 at this time,) one could argue that V went back for one (or both, actually) of two reasons.
1) V wanted to show Xykon how powerful he really was, even if his original ultimate power wasn't his.
2) V wanted to help O-Chul, who would in turn help V defeat Xykon/escape.

Looking at V's reactions/how he actually helped O-Chul, I'm leaning towards the second choic right now. I think V is realizing now that the Soul Splice was a mistake and that he should have taken the second option that the fiends gave him (even if it wouldn't have worked.) It's a step in the right direction, in my opinion. I think V will redeem himself soon, by doing a completely good action for the reason that it is good.

[warrl]

Shadow;6185584']On the newest strip (657 at this time,) one could argue that V went back for one (or both, actually) of two reasons.
1) V wanted to show Xykon how powerful he really was, even if his original ultimate power wasn't his.
2) V wanted to help O-Chul, who would in turn help V defeat Xykon/escape.

Looking at V's reactions/how he actually helped O-Chul, I'm leaning towards the second choice right now.

I'd *partially* discount the second choice, on the basis that V effectively already had escaped.

[sam79]

Shadow;6185584']

On the newest strip (657 at this time,) one could argue that V went back for one (or both, actually) of two reasons.
1) V wanted to show Xykon how powerful he really was, even if his original ultimate power wasn't his.
2) V wanted to help O-Chul, who would in turn help V defeat Xykon/escape.


1) I don't think this is too convincing; she is surely not so unwise as to think she can take Xykon on now that she is badly wounded and bereft of her Soul-Splices?
2)Help O-Chul, yes; but as a means to an end? I'm not sure. If her overall aim is to escape, obviously she wouldn't have turned back at all. What made her turn back, it seems, is the thought of O-Chul being subjected to yet more torture, and of course the 'hangover' from the last time she ran invisibly away from others. Do the pair of them have a realistic chance of beating Xyklon, given that all three are pretty damaged and the casters have used up a fair few of their spells? Well, there's been much debate on the forum about that, but my view is the best that V and O-Chul can hope for is getting away alive.

I think V went back mostly for reason 3); to try and help/rescue O-Chul, as a way of redeeming herself for her 'failure' to help the Azurite citizens during the siege.

[[TS] Shadow]

1) I don't think this is too convincing; she is surely not so unwise as to think she can take Xykon on now that she is badly wounded and bereft of her Soul-Splices?
2)Help O-Chul, yes; but as a means to an end? I'm not sure. If her overall aim is to escape, obviously she wouldn't have turned back at all. What made her turn back, it seems, is the thought of O-Chul being subjected to yet more torture, and of course the 'hangover' from the last time she ran invisibly away from others. Do the pair of them have a realistic chance of beating Xyklon, given that all three are pretty damaged and the casters have used up a fair few of their spells? Well, there's been much debate on the forum about that, but my view is the best that V and O-Chul can hope for is getting away alive.

I think V went back mostly for reason 3); to try and help/rescue O-Chul, as a way of redeeming herself for her 'failure' to help the Azurite citizens during the siege.

I guess you're right there; I've never claimed to be perfect.

[sam79]

Maybe not perfect, but your sig got me!

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Most of V's acute stupidity comes precisely from the D&D setting. He is stupid in utilisation of his powers. Someone who doesn't know the rules of the game can hardly appreciate the full scale of V's stupidity.

You have superior grasp of D&d rules. But the OP has a superior grasp of story rules...and courtesy.



That's true, you know. Arcane magic is the ultimate tool, which can solve basically every problem there could be in a D&D setting, if you have enough of the magic and the brain to use it (which should be no prob for Wizards with their genius-level Intelligence).

You are thinking in game mechanical terms not in story terms. For example, V saved his family but they turned away from V because of what they had become. So, in the larger picture, no, magic cannot solve every problem.



Again, that's the truth and not a psychological affectation, as you seem to be implying. V did not do enough, did not know enough, was not powerful enough: both in absolute terms, and with regard to his 14th level Wizard status.

Wrong from the story point of view. The OP demonstrated better than I can the character's state of mind. Your argument on game terms is also wrong. If you were simply talking about character optimization, which is not RPGing, then, if you knew the exact level and resources of Xykon, V, and the soul splices, then you might not have a point. As it is, you don't. So your speculations, which are well documented in other threads, are just that speculations, fun speculation but speculation nonetheless. However, OotS is more akin to an RPG than a character optimization exercise. If OotS was an actual D&D game, which it is not, then it would be very easy for the DM to give actual game power to V through the soul splices while keeping aces in the hole for his main villian. So for example, Redcloak and Xykkon know about soul splices, and Energy Drain affects the soul spliced souls and the soul splices do not help V's concentration check against the damage the magical traps inflict.


Banning Necromancy and Conjuration was a fundamentally bad move in the first place.

Exactly. The character in-story is not about optimization in-game but about power as in the kind of power that Xykon talks about in 657. So bringing up game optimization into an in-character discussion is pointless.



Yeah, that's definitely a weakness. Too damn sensitive.
...
This is not an explanation for stupidity. The failures should have only egged V more towards self-perfection.
...
These are not real reasons for V to be so stupid about his battle with an epic level lich.

All his "deep psychological torment" and the desire to succeed should have made him more focused on the task, not dumber.

Simply stating that a character should have done something better does not negate the reasons why the character did not do better. Or rather, you give no in-character reason why the character should have done better. Your argument is simply that because better options were available to the character, the character had to be able to pick those better options. This does not have to be the case with fictional character just as it is not the case with people in the real world.



The only plot reason for V's stupidity there exists is that the Splices take so much effort to be maintained, they impose something like a -10 penalty on the user's Intelligence and Wisdom scores. Which, of course, makes the entire Splice deal absolutely worthless, as you get the power, but are robbed of the brains and the will to use it effectively.

This is not to say V's arc is not well-written, captivating and engaging.

It's just that V does perform stupidly, and there are no good reasons for this except the Plotted Splice penalty which in turn invalidates the Plotted Splice benefits.

OK then you are agreeing with the OP that V did act stupidly. However your justification is that, it is OK with you because outside of character, the soul splice plot device was jury rigged to begin with. So that makes it OK that V's character made, in your opinion, nonsensical choices because in the end it would not have mattered anyway. And you are further arguing with the OP that there were no in character reasons for V to act stupid.

Then I gather the arc is "captivating and engaging" for non-character reasons? If so, then would you allow that the arc could be "captivating and engaging" to someone else for in-character reasons?

[choie]

Thanks, guys. I can't argue with rules lawyers, because I don't have an LLB in D&D. :) This really is a great thread thanks to the contributions of so many folks with such intelligent, considered opinions on these characters -- many of you have been reading (and thus thinking about) OOTS waay longer than I have, so I really appreciate hearing your ideas.

I will say regarding this:


You forget that the Splice gave V the effect of a full rest. He was not exhausted.

I don't think that's strictly necessarily true. They said V's spell slots were replenished, but said nothing about actual rest. As writ in #634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html):


...On the plus side, the rejuvenating effects of the soul splice will allow you to start with all spell slots completely refreshed.

That doesn't mean V's mental (or physical) processes are any clearer. I think it's like giving someone who hasn't slept in four days a six-pack of Red Bull. He may get a huge jolt of energy in the short run, but it's no substitute for a full night's sleep.

I just can't quite understand such shallow readings of Rich's work. "Vaarsuvius is stupid, it has nothing to do with mental trauma." I guess all the hard efforts Rich has taken in this long arc, from drawing Vaarsuvius's expression when the dragon head crushed the Death Knight (that was not a look of relief!) to scripting V's increasingly uncharacteristic outbursts of rage against Elan and Durkon back with the fleet (Vaarsuvius, who was aghast at making Elan cry, suddenly threatening Elan's life??), were all just for the heck of it -- Rich was really interested in telling a meaningless tale about an otherwise intelligent wizard who makes boneheaded, thoughtless mistakes for no reason except stupidity. That's sooo much more interesting to read!

Seems like such a reading does Rich a serious injustice. Maybe you're right, it's possible, I suppose. But that sure doesn't sound like the webcomic that's captivated me and apparently many others.

Edited to add: Or what HamsterOfTheGod said so much better. I'm discussing these characters as if they're people, rather than players or PCs. Of course, that's the conceit of the strip -- that they are PCs -- but as we all know, Rich has said many times that OOTS is now a narrative, not just a game. So to me, OOTS is a MUCH more engaging strip when you look at it from the POV of personalities and character histories and emotions, not just character builds and stats. Now, everyone's free to look at the strip from his or her own perspective, of course. There's no denying its roots and the whole story universe are based on D&D rules. But to me, and hopefully in this thread, the story-based POV is the one that takes precedence.

[JonestheSpy]

Thanks, guys. I can't argue with rules lawyers, because I don't have an LLB in D&D.

I think you should just consider yourself lucky that your lack of rules knowledge means you never get tempted...


I just can't quite understand such shallow readings of Rich's work. "Vaarsuvius is stupid, it has nothing to do with mental trauma."

I suppose if you really wanted to understand, you could spend some time on the RPG section of this forum, but then again you might want to just consider how blissful ignorance can be in certain circumstances.

[Dagren]

right, because it would just be silly to assume he DID, and used them mostly offscreen.#452 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html). Ninth panel.

[AstralFire]

You know, I've seen some people argue that it's V's own "fault" for expecting so much of himself that he took all these defeats so hard. That's just... I mean, "fault"? It is a character trait, flaw, weakness. Everybody has them. Just because V's happens to be arrogance doesn't make it worse than someone else's.

One of my character flaws is laziness. If bad things happen to me because I have not managed to overcome said flaw, then it is still my fault.

I have some sympathy for V ever since the -reason- for him being a complete jerkoff was revealed (note that for a long bit of this arc, we had no idea about his final encounter with the Azure City people he could not protect), but that does not remove him from all blame.

I will say that as someone who's a melee optimizer more than a spell optimizer because God Wizards and even minor variants on them bore me, I haven't found his actions to be particularly reckless other than how he handled the pitfiend. He was outclassed being unused to that level of power.

What amuses me is that before UAP it was rare to see V criticism. After the splice he gets all sorts of criticism... so much of it from people who are well-versed in scry and die.

[Forbiddenwar]

I'd *partially* discount the second choice, on the basis that V effectively already had escaped.

Wow, You're right! I hadn't noticed but V is OUTSIDE (hole in the wall, purple sky outside darker purple floor) and climbing down the tower when she turns back. another second she would have jumped away and cast feather fall or something easy.

That means the ONLY reasonable reason for V to turn back and save O-Chul is to save O-chul. V wasn't in any danger until she turned back.
GO V!

[Omegonthesane]

Exactly. The character in-story is not about optimization in-game but about power as in the kind of power that Xykon talks about in 657. So bringing up game optimization into an in-character discussion is pointless.
More to the point, V was shafted with his barred schools. He became an evoker who couldn't do conjuration or necromancy back in 3.0, when you couldn't choose your barred schools (they were assigned according to your speciality) and Teleport was a Transmutation spell. The conversion to 3.5 should have allowed him to edit his barred schools accordingly. It... didn't.

[Teddy]

Great thread. Puts words to my feelings for poor broken V:smallfrown:


One of my character flaws is laziness. If bad things happen to me because I have not managed to overcome said flaw, then it is still my fault.

I have some sympathy for V ever since the -reason- for him being a complete jerkoff was revealed (note that for a long bit of this arc, we had no idea about his final encounter with the Azure City people he could not protect), but that does not remove him from all blame.

I wouldn't compare lazines to bad self-esteem. Lazines makes you unwilling to do things (I'm pretty lazy myself). Bad self-esteem makes you blame yourself for not being capable of doing things that noone even required of you in the first place (Roy didn't ask of V to save all the azurites from a horrible death, nor did Hinjo, since they knew that people would die and it would be inevitable).

And it's certainly not V's fault that s/he can't save the azurites from the invading hobgoblins. It's the hobgoblins fault that azurites die by their swords, Redcloaks an Xykons fault for planning and ordering the assault, and finally The Dark Ones fault for plotting it all in the first place. V sure could (and did) kill hundereds of hobgoblins, and certainly saved the lives of thousands of civilians by giving them time to evacuate the city, but still s/he blames hirself for not being capable of saving them all.

[AstralFire]

It's still a character flaw, and being unable to understand the limits of your capabilities is as dangerous as being unwilling to exploit what you do have, as I think this arc has shown. I deal with an awful lot of these people on a regular basis and yes, they're making themselves miserable and it's their own fault. A plight being sympathetic does not absolve the person of their role in the situation being formed.

[Kish]

More to the point, V was shafted with his barred schools. He became an evoker who couldn't do conjuration or necromancy back in 3.0, when you couldn't choose your barred schools (they were assigned according to your speciality)


Er-hem. No. They were assigned according to your specialty in 2ed, not 3.0ed. Vaarsuvius chose Conjuration as his/her barred school (and probably the only one, since an Evoker who chose to bar Conjuration didn't need to bar anything else) in 3.0ed.

(It used a tier system. Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration were the first-tier schools; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar a first-tier school, or two second-tier schools, or three schools. Enchantment, Illusion, and Abjuration were the second-tier schools; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar a first or second-tier school, or both third-tier schools. Divination and Necromancy were the third-tier schools; to specialize in one of them you needed to bar any school.)

[Gwynfrid]

Kudos to choie for this well thought out post. Same to HamsterOfTheGod for his excellent remarks about characterization vs character optimization. Some people, obviously, would prefer OOTS characters to be played optimally (presumably, the same way they prefer playing their own characters). Such preferences are respectable. But I am pretty sure writing OOTS that way would make for a flavorless, mostly predictable, and eventually boring story - boring even for the character optimizers themselves. The Giant's explains in the FAQ that things happen "at the speed of plot" rather than according to D&D rules or according to optimal choices under those rules, and this is a key reason why OOTS is such a fantastic webcomic.

That said, I admit that V did make some extremely stupid mistakes. BUT that does not make her a stupid person. Moreover, IMHO, her only critical mistakes were not casting the wrong spells, or tactical errors. They were in-character, in-story mistakes: Dismissing, on three separate occasions, the advice of her closest friends, who also happen to be people of generally sound judgment - Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html), Inkyrius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html), and Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html).

[Darius1020]

OP, I love you

That was an awesome assessment of V, I wish I could speak so eloquently and... good...

I never really knew why people hated V so much, his type of character is always the most interesting, whether in a story, TV show, movie,

Anyway, you rock, keep on keepin on

[FerhagoRosewood]

To the OP: I must commend you for your first post and this thread in and of itself.

V has always been my least favorite character, because my unfamiliarity with arcane users in D&D and their personality in general. Until your post, I never saw V in a sympathetic light that would make me identify with them.

So basically, thank you for the post and congrats on "rebuking" me.

^^

[Omegonthesane]

Er-hem. No. They were assigned according to your specialty in 2ed, not 3.0ed. Vaarsuvius chose Conjuration as his/her barred school (and probably the only one, since an Evoker who chose to bar Conjuration didn't need to bar anything else) in 3.0ed.

(It used a tier system. Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration were the first-tier schools; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar a first-tier school, or two second-tier schools, or three schools. Enchantment, Illusion, and Abjuration were the second-tier schools; to specialize in one of them, you needed to bar a first or second-tier school, or both third-tier schools. Divination and Necromancy were the third-tier schools; to specialize in one of them you needed to bar any school.)

The point remains, the laws of the universe changed to stick Teleport spells into Conjuration, so V should have been able to change his barred schools to compensate.

[Bastian]

choie wins. I don't care what. She just wins.


OP, I love you



Looks like a new underground movement is quicky gaining momentum...:smallcool:

[SmartAlec]

The point remains, the laws of the universe changed to stick Teleport spells into Conjuration, so V should have been able to change his barred schools to compensate.

Where do you draw the line here? After all, Halflings are no longer able to dual-wield medium-size weapons. Should Belkar have been able to change his race?

[Dagren]

Where do you draw the line here? After all, Halflings are no longer able to dual-wield medium-size weapons. Should Belkar have been able to change his race?No, but nor was he stuck with a pair of swords he couldn't use either. V was stuck with spells she couldn't use, though.

[Kish]

No, but nor was he stuck with a pair of swords he couldn't use either.
However, he was stuck with 1d3 damage "small daggers" rather than 1d4 damage "small short swords," which would have been a better, if less literal, match for the 1d4 damage "daggers" he was using in 3.0ed.

Vaarsuvius must have changed his/her barred schools on updating to 3.5ed, or s/he wouldn't have two schools barred, one of which is Conjuration. Probably s/he couldn't have chosen to switch out Conjuration and added Necromancy. This doesn't have anything to do with your argument that s/he should have been allowed to switch barred Conjuration for a whole new barred school, but I would say that's actually a lot less harsh than Belkar being told, "No, it doesn't matter that short swords would now count as Light weapons for you, a dagger specialist you've been and a dagger specialist you'll stay."

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The point remains, the laws of the universe changed to stick Teleport spells into Conjuration, so V should have been able to change his barred schools to compensate.

V should have changed schools if all V or the author cared about what was you care about.

If you were writing a story, would every wizard be a optimized? I hope not because that would be boring.

If you were DM'ing a game, would every wizard encountered be a optimized? I hope not because that would be boring.

If you were playing a role playing game, would you play every wizard as an optimized wizard? That's an OK personal choice. But in my experience, some of the most fun characters are the ones that were not optimized.

If you were playing the character optimization game, would you optimize every wizard? Well yes, of course, in the character optimization game, every wizard is optimized.

[Omegonthesane]

V should have changed schools if all V or the author cared about what was you care about.

If you were writing a story, would every wizard be a optimized? I hope not because that would be boring.

If you were DM'ing a game, would every wizard encountered be a optimized? I hope not because that would be boring.

If you were playing a role playing game, would you play every wizard as an optimized wizard? That's an OK personal choice. But in my experience, some of the most fun characters are the ones that were not optimized.

If you were playing the character optimization game, would you optimize every wizard? Well yes, of course, in the character optimization game, every wizard is optimized.

I don't play the optimisation game, or at least, not very well; I just feel that a long-range Teleport is the most important ability in a wizard's spellbook bar none. I therefore find it implausible that anyone would willingly deny themselves this spell unless their spouse was a conjurer or suchlike.

Then again I also find it bizarre that a Fighter with ranks in UMD can use a teleport scroll, but Vaarsuvius can't. If that rule about "not even magic items" wasn't in place I'd perfectly understand V barring Conjuration.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I don't play the optimisation game, or at least, not very well; I just feel that a long-range Teleport is the most important ability in a wizard's spellbook bar none. I therefore find it implausible that anyone would willingly deny themselves this spell unless their spouse was a conjurer or suchlike.

But that is part of the original comedy of OotS. OotS had and still has a lot of in jokes about the game. As a gamer, this is something that attracts me to it.

Over time, the story has evolved into a compelling drama. However, at the same time it is still a comedy and does still make joke references to the game.

For me, and a testament to the skill of the author, the jokes -- including the original subpar choices made by the characters -- do not distract from the drama. YMMV.



Then again I also find it bizarre that a Fighter with ranks in UMD can use a teleport scroll, but Vaarsuvius can't. If that rule about "not even magic items" wasn't in place I'd perfectly understand V barring Conjuration.
That is a different issue altogether which is not appropriate to this thread. It has to do with game balance. In-game it can be explained that the non-wizard using UMD is using a small and specific amount of magical knowledge of conjuration to cast Teleport from the scroll. The specialist wizard barred form conjuration cannot use that same knowledge. But, generally, in cases such as this, I find it useful in-game not to think too much about how it all works inside the game world.

[Omegonthesane]

@HotG
I don't think the rules gags detract from the game; my point was "V was shafted rules-wise" not "For reasons of story, V should not have been shafted rules-wise". More to the point, right up until now, there wasn't a situation V needed his own Teleport for - he needed the splice for a hell of a lot more than Ganonron's 'ports, he hired an Azurite wizard for the Cliffport trip, etc. Though it would have made Miko's job easier if V cooperated with Teleport, V would be more likely to 'port her into a volcano as soon as Roy said the Order were ditching her.

[xocist]

Ahhh! Young Choie, you have redeemed the intelligence and insight of mankind in my eyes. Though I believed every word you uttered from the bottom of my heart, and was annoyed at people slagging off V over his actions, at last somebody has the articullance and- general smartitude to say what is right.

[Optimystik]

Looks like a new underground movement is quicky gaining momentum...:smallcool:

If I keep the praise up I'll need a choie tattoo soon, but I thought I'd chime in and explain the outpouring of adulation here.

It's not often that a pixie is able to post so cogently. We try (and the rules require us) to be nice and accommodating to inexperienced posters, but that doesn't stop the reflexive eyerolling and sighing every time one posts a "how often does the comic update?" "What is V's gender?" or "What is the Monster in the Darkness?" thread. And here we have one that posts a character analysis that even has the dwarves, ogres, and ettins - and yes, the bugbears - nodding in agreement.

The lesson here is simply LURK MOAR.

[Bastian]

If I keep the praise up I'll need a choie tattoo soon, but I thought I'd chime in and explain the outpouring of adulation here.

It's not often that a pixie is able to post so cogently. We try (and the rules require us) to be nice and accommodating to inexperienced posters, but that doesn't stop the reflexive eyerolling and sighing every time one posts a "how often does the comic update?" "What is V's gender?" or "What is the Monster in the Darkness?" thread. And here we have one that posts a character analysis that even has the dwarves, ogres, and ettins - and yes, the bugbears - nodding in agreement.

The lesson here is simply LURK MOAR.

Quoted for truth.
I myself developed a nervous tic having been subjected to those threads during my lurking years - I can fully emphatize with that.
Also, from a Pixie's perspective, she definitely set a higher standard.

So, back to business. A new esoteric cult is rising and you'll agree with me that now is the best time to profit from the situation. It's our way out of this recession.

We could brand the initiates with ritual Choie tattoos. And let's start to think about titles. You can be High Priest. I'd settle for Warlord.

And merchandising. Like Choie dolls. Kids will love that.

Deal?

[Pronounceable]

So, back to business. A new esoteric cult is rising and you'll agree with me that now is the best time to profit from the situation. It's our way out of this recession.

I wonder if this cult would split into orthodox and reformed Choists...

[Bastian]

I wonder if this cult would split into orthodox and reformed Choists...

As soon as we'll introduce human sacrifices, I suppose so.
But that's not a big deal. Just ignore everything I said after you started worshipping. Here's a coffee maker for you.

[Kaytara]

One of my character flaws is laziness. If bad things happen to me because I have not managed to overcome said flaw, then it is still my fault.

I have some sympathy for V ever since the -reason- for him being a complete jerkoff was revealed (note that for a long bit of this arc, we had no idea about his final encounter with the Azure City people he could not protect), but that does not remove him from all blame.

I will say that as someone who's a melee optimizer more than a spell optimizer because God Wizards and even minor variants on them bore me, I haven't found his actions to be particularly reckless other than how he handled the pitfiend. He was outclassed being unused to that level of power.

What amuses me is that before UAP it was rare to see V criticism. After the splice he gets all sorts of criticism... so much of it from people who are well-versed in scry and die.

Oh, but you misunderstood me.
I didn't say "V's actions are not his fault because everyone has flaws". What I said was "V having flaws is not his fault because everyone has flaws".

Again, I sometimes see this argument:
"V suffered from his failure in Azure City. But it's his fault for having such a high expectation of himself."

As I said, I don't think the word "fault" is at all applicable here. We're talking about something that's a key character trait. You don't blame people for having character traits. For acting on them in a certain way, usually yes, but not for the fact of having them itself.

Oh, and Undead Prince... You seem to have missed the point that Choie is describing the situation from V's perspective. Whether keeping Roy alive is objectively the cleric's job doesn't mean jack to the wizard who sees himself as being the most powerful and thus the one with the most responsibilities in the party. If the Cloister is simply too Epic for V to possibly beat, it does nothing to negate the painful blow to Vaarsuvius' self-esteem upon being unable to breach it. Kyrie did not handle the situation well, but V doesn't see her as "dumb and selfish" - instead, he says that he is "sorry" and apparently just sees that encounter as yet something else he has messed up on.

And so on. If Vaarsuvius were a robot, you'd have a point. As such, I personally consider his emotional and mental state at that point (one which has been established steadily over many strips) to be a far more elegant explanation of his sub-optimal performance during the battle than "the Splice gave him an INT penalty".

It's just as Choie said. Vaarsuvius was trying to prove himself with this battle. Not just arcane magic, but his own worth. Thus, even something as trivial and obvious as summoning meatshields would have meant that Vaarsuvius didn't have what it takes to make it otherwise, and V wanted to prove exactly that - that he had what it takes to win regardless of the circumstances.

[choie]

Holy cow, you guys are incredibly kind and generous to a newbie -- I was so nervous about posting, too. I'm cracking up at the cult status (especially since "choie" is the name of my much-missed cat). Although I cannot approve of any schisms so early on. There must be consensus or the cult shall be disbanded. So let it be written, so let it be done.

Seriously: I am really enjoying the discussion here, thanks to the many intriguing observations relating to the OOTS story and character development. There's a lot of food for thought here; surely a testament not just to the fans' insights, but to Rich's ability to craft such a deep storyline. I'm glad the game mechanics stuff has been at a minimum in this thread, at least.


To the OP: I must commend you for your first post and this thread in and of itself.

V has always been my least favorite character, because my unfamiliarity with arcane users in D&D and their personality in general. Until your post, I never saw V in a sympathetic light that would make me identify with them.

So basically, thank you for the post and congrats on "rebuking" me.

Wow. Of the many, many flattering things said here, this is the one that most makes me delighted to have gotten past my insecurities enough to start the thread. Anyone's entitled to dislike any character, of course, and I can totally see that V may be particularly difficult to warm to due to the arrogant facade. I'm just so glad that our discussion has led you to -- if not like Vaarsuvius, at least maybe look at V differently and see a new angle to this admittedly frustrating behavior.

I'd like to open the discussion up and maybe see what you guys think of the idea, often mentioned lately, that Vaarsuvius has always been selfish and doesn't care about anyone but him/herself. I don't mean they find V selfish just in the latest arc; some have applauded V's actions in saving O-Chul by mentioning that "this is the first time ever that s/he's doing somethng for someone else." And some readers don't find V's behavior in #657 selfless at all: they insist that V went back to give O-Chul the potions in some misguided attempt to use O-Chul as a distraction, or perhaps as a tool in V desperate bid to destroy Xykon. And of course, some still think V is just "stupid," and presumably gave the potions to O-Chul just as another in a long line of dumbass decisions. Clearly, their opinions of V are extremely low.

I'm sure it'll be no surprise that I vehemently disagree with this assessment of Vaarsuvius's character. Yes, of course V's arrogant and rarely able to admit mistakes. But the notion that V has never cared for anyone but V seems way off to me.

1) Ever since Azure City, s/he's been obsessively trying to find Haley and Roy; now, I know this developed into a desperate attempt to prove V's own worth and abilities, but I believe that concern for Haley and Roy, not to mention an eye to the bigger picture (the necessity of rezzing Roy to get to the Gate and save the world) was -- and is -- still a significant part of V's motiviation. V lost perspective the more V's attempts proved futile, but that was frustration and PTSD and lack of trancing working to drive V nutso. In short, just because there was self-interest driving V doesn't mean it was only self-interest.

2) Going further back, V has continually shown affection and support for Haley. Vaarsuvius was quick to notice Haley's love for Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0172.html), and (rather adorably) teased/encouraged her to acknowledge them. After the Nale fight, when V learned Haley had cured herself, V was thrilled and embraced her wholeheartedly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html). And V was also thoughtful enough to leave and push Durkon out of the room so Haley could be alone with Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html). What is this if not caring for others?

3) And let's go even earlier in OOTS. When Vaarsuvius blew up at Elan's perceived mockery, and Elan burst into tears, V was mortified (just look at the devastated expression on V's face!) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html). Despite V's innate reluctance to admit mistakes and to use spells to fix all problems, s/he accepted Haley's demand that V go to Elan and solve things the hard way -- with an apology. V gave Elan a sincere apology, told him s/he'd be proud to have him as a fellow wizard, and was thrilled when he forgave her and they hugged. Look at V's happy, relieved smile! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) That's not someone who's unemotional, uncaring or unfriendly.

I expect most of the posters here will agree that V's efforts to bring O-Chul back were not selfish. Honestly, it beggars my imagination to understand how an act so staggeringly brave could be so harshly construed. Yes, V ran away from Xykon in #656 and didn't help O-Chul then, and some find that damning as well. But V was badly injured, defenseless, and terrified -- imagine going from "feelings of omnipotence" to utter helplessness in the wink of an eye! Xykon had V in his clutches and had just threatened indescribable torture ("You have no idea of the ways I'm going to hurt you..") when he suddenly let go. I very much doubt V was in any state to notice or care why Xykon let go -- all V could do was (wisely) cast invisibility and make a mad dash for the door, probably with one single inarticulate thought: escape!

So in #657, V is thwarted by the doorway and runs (or limps -- V was just smashed by a huge chunk of castle, that's gotta hurt!) to the hole in the wall, crawling out. Now V hears Xykon's goading words. Everything comes back to V: the invisibility, the terror, the helplessness, the Azurite in dire need... And V just can't let it go on. Better to die doing something than go through what V's experienced over the past few months. Maybe V can't save O-Chul; V's too weak to carry or even drag O-Chul out, and even if V could, how on earth could they hope to escape past Xykon? (Once O-Chul starts to be dragged off by an invisible pair of hands, Xykon's gonna figure out what's happening!) But V can at least give O-Chul a fighting chance somehow. Wasn't there a dead hobgoblin cleric lying near the door? Wouldn't a cleric have healing potions? (A bit of divine magic to the rescue... that's gotta be painful for V to accept.) So V crawls over the rubble right back to the horrifying villain who gets off on causing agony and pours the potions down O-Chul's throat, probably thinking that getting some strength back will allow O-Chul to fight back or escape at some point. I doubt V expected to get past Xykon and make it back to the window, though of course V could only try. Sadly, it didn't work, and V's now being throttled to death for his/her efforts.

I mean, I ask you guys, what's more interesting a take on this strip, what's more likely for Rich as a writer to want to accomplish: showing V continuing to act like a selfish idiot, or showing a life-changing epiphany, one last chance to make things right after so much failure and destruction?

Panels #6 and #7 are all the evidence I need to prove the latter.

So. Thoughts?

[Bastian]

Holy cow, you guys are incredibly kind and generous to a newbie -- I was so nervous about posting, too. I'm cracking up at the cult status (especially since "choie" is the name of my much-missed cat). Although I cannot approve of any schisms so early on. There must be consensus or the cult shall be disbanded. So let it be written, so let it be done.


Cult of the Holy Cow? I was thinking more along the lines of the Church of Choielogy™, or the Apologists Congregation™. Oh well, you are the charismatic spiritual leader here. Whatever works for you. As long as we can retain human sacrifices in the deal.



p.s. I love cats dearly too, you have my sympathy.


Seriously:

I was serious. That was a honest-to-god (pun not intended) business proposal.

p.p.s. I really don't find anything (intelligent/ligible) to add to your post, on the grounds that
a) I find myself fully in agreement with you (and this should be expected since you are currently making an attempt to Godhood) and

b) I am afraid my few neurons are not up to the task. Especially with a brand new cult on my hands. It's a demanding task, really.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I dedicate myself to be a Paladin of the Church of Choie.

[Pronounceable]

Pshaw. Generous, my ass. You deserve the praise.

Though I've always found the points you've made in this thread to be painfully obvious, it's also painfully obvious that others didn't. And just because I think most everything you've said is obvious doesn't mean I don't think it's not said well.

You seem to be adept at written communication and psychological analysis. Here, have a live sacrifice...
I only hope you'll be here to dissect Redcloak on the next scene he does something that gets the forums all riled up.

[Kaytara]

You know, Choie, what I really like about your posts is how you respectfully acknowledge and address the other possible interpretations of controversial events without going into too much detail on them - like how you touched on V's confrontation with Kyrie, or the "power-crazed" aspect of the Familicide. That goes a long way towards having your arguments accepted - and good for the debate, too, because many threads get derailed due to someone latching onto an offhand comment or somesuch. So, well done. :)



Ha ha, me too. I guess it's a good thing when people know where you stand.


I was sort of waiting for Kaytara to answer enthusiastically to this post :smallwink: But I expected her to bump in sooner :smalltongue:
Heheee. XD You know, I considered putting "Supporter of Vaarsuvius in his darkest hour" into my sig at some point, but decided against it because I thought it would be completely redundant... Seems I was right, though I had no idea of my public image as the unyielding defender of Vaarsuvius to that extent... XD


And yes, from a psychological and character development point of view, V *had* to undergo to that much pressure. Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make proud. What for childlike Elan would be a near-fatal blow, (sanity-wise) for V would be barely a scratch.

It is also true that strenght of character is based also on flexibility and lack of (inflated) ego. From that perspective Elan has less chances to be broken.
I agree with this interpretation. I've been convinced for some time that part of this story arc is to have majorly flawed characters (immature Elan, impulsive Belkar, megalomaniac Vaarsuvius) get over their flaws to some extent and become slightly less incompetent at their heroics. With the first two, it took something pretty big to induce a change. With V, it is slightly more difficult for several reasons; while being immature and childish for Elan and relishing immediate gratification for Belkar are important aspects of their personalities, they are nowhere near as central and defining as V's reliance on magic in relation to his self-esteem is for Vaarsuvius. On top of that, he is easily the most stubborn and unyielding of the three. Overcoming his flaw means a fundamental change in nature, so it's only appropriate that V needs to be put through hell in order to set himself on that path.

[Cúchulainn]

So in #657, V is thwarted by the doorway and runs (or limps -- V was just smashed by a huge chunk of castle, that's gotta hurt!) to the hole in the wall, crawling out. Now V hears Xykon's goading words. Everything comes back to V: the invisibility, the terror, the helplessness, the Azurite in dire need... And V just can't let it go on. Better to die doing something than go through what V's experienced over the past few months. Maybe V can't save O-Chul; V's too weak to carry or even drag O-Chul out, and even if V could, how on earth could they hope to escape past Xykon? (Once O-Chul starts to be dragged off by an invisible pair of hands, Xykon's gonna figure out what's happening!) But V can at least give O-Chul a fighting chance somehow. Wasn't there a dead hobgoblin cleric lying near the door? Wouldn't a cleric have healing potions? (A bit of divine magic to the rescue... that's gotta be painful for V to accept.) So V crawls over the rubble right back to the horrifying villain who gets off on causing agony and pours the potions down O-Chul's throat, probably thinking that getting some strength back will allow O-Chul to fight back or escape at some point. I doubt V expected to get past Xykon and make it back to the window, though of course V could only try. Sadly, it didn't work, and V's now being throttled to death for his/her efforts.

I mean, I ask you guys, what's more interesting a take on this strip, what's more likely for Rich as a writer to want to accomplish: showing V continuing to act like a selfish idiot, or showing a life-changing epiphany, one last chance to make things right after so much failure and destruction?

Panels #6 and #7 are all the evidence I need to prove the latter.

So. Thoughts?

V has never had any intention of dying or losing, he tried to make his escape after healing O'Chul. Problem is I'm not seeing the life-changing epiphany; we've just been treated to V being an idiot for the past however-many strips, and as far as I know he still has an evil alignment from the splice. So now he turns back because the paladin that saved his life is being promised even worse treatment for that and suddenly he's awesome and on the road to recovery from his evil, evil ways? I don't think so. Maybe this encounter taught him some things, we don't know yet, fact is I expect an epiphany to be more than a hung head and a couple of healing potions. If you consider that to be 'proof' I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway I think making up for his past mistakes is way down on his list of priorities; right below staying alive and making up for his current ones. I mean answer me this, if V had another envelope and he could stop time to summon the fiends for another Splice (forgetting for a minute that it was a once-in-a-century deal) do you think he would do it? I believe he would. No doubt in my mind, in fact.

[Bastian]

Heheee. XD You know, I considered putting "Supporter of Vaarsuvius in his darkest hour" into my sig at some point, but decided against it because I thought it would be completely redundant... Seems I was right, though I had no idea of my public image as the unyielding defender of Vaarsuvius to that extent... XD



Quite close. Believe me or not, in my lurking days I mentally awarded you with the title of 'Stalwart Defender of Varsuuvius'. Unyielding works too, I guess. :smallbiggrin:



I agree with this interpretation.


That honours me :smallwink:

[Gwynfrid]

I'm sure it'll be no surprise that I vehemently disagree with this assessment of Vaarsuvius's character. Yes, of course V's arrogant and rarely able to admit mistakes. But the notion that V has never cared for anyone but V seems way off to me.


I wholeheartedly agree with all your points, in particular those about the V-Haley relationship. The expression on V's face in those 3 last panels is definitely that of someone who deeply cares for others. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)

I would like to add a couple of proof points to yours:

4) V cares about her mate and her kids, big time, as shown by one of the most powerfully emotional images in the entire OOTS (in the last panel). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html)

5) V is devastated by her unability to save NPC lives (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html): This forms the base for the entire present arc.

6) Even though V detests Belkar and delights in humiliating him, she still cares enough that she won't let him die: It is worthy of note that it is V, not Roy, who acts first to stop Miko from killing the halfling. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

Among all OOTS characters, V is the one I feel closest to (!). This is probably because she represents a great caricature of myself when playing a powerful wizard, including all the flaws : desire for ever more arcane power, feelings of responsibility for everything all the way up to saving the world, thinking other team members are negligible except as meat shields, etc. This is why I greatly appreciate your apologia and your refutation of all the "V is stupid" opinions.

[Alex Warlorn]

Great look into V's mind, are you a clone of the author? It's flawless, and a tribute both your mind and that of the author's!

[AstralFire]

I'm just... leery of the pendulum swinging the other way where V is absolutely absolved of guilt or criticism.

Kaytara - I did not misunderstand you. The level at which he dwells upon his actions is, in fact, an action he takes because of his flaws. Thinking is a verb; thinking is a type of doing something. It is a sympathetic mistake, but it was still his. When bad things have happened to me in the past leaving me depressed, the direct perpetrator was only partially to blame; the fact that I was unable to move on for a while was my own weakness, my own fault. (And I mean long-term stuff. Not like a day or a week of being bummed.)

Mere Speculation: I wouldn't be surprised if (during the comic's fastforward) he received attempts to be cheered up by Elan and Durkon and shrugged them off. It'd be rather out of character for the former to not attempt it even if he didn't know why specifically V was so upset.

Edit: He got at least one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html).

It's one thing to be depressed when you've got no one; it is another when you have people who want to help. You're either clinical at that point or being willful, and I have to say that I just don't find "your body has an essential lack of serotonin" to be very likely here.

In some ways, some people I know (besides myself) are very similar to V, and saying "well, that aspect of my personality is uncontrollable, so depression resulting is not my fault - only the actions I take afterward," is not a very productive way to deal with it in my experience, since it's not dealing with the earliest controllable root of an issue.

Let me clarify here - I am not saying his flaws are his fault. I am agreeing with those people you spoke of earlier in saying that his depression partially is.
[hr]
More general point: every time V does something good, he is not necessarily being a martyr; his rescue of O-Chul was daring and commendable, but (as several people have now remarked) not an intentional sacrifice, not that one would have been very logical there. Every time V does something bad, he is not necessarily being Hitler.

So for V caring for others: it's clear that he does, and should have been clear to many without archive digging because of the introduction of Kyrie. Despite that, it must be kept in mind that he did, in fact, leave his SigOth with young kids on a journey that originally had no purpose but power. I don't think we'll ever get a clear answer one way or the other given that he is making a dramatic turnabout now, but I think the prior suggests that V cares for others in a very selfish manner. The Black Dragon's mother cared for some others very much. Is V the exact same as her? No, I wouldn't even suggest that they're mostly the same. She was definitely intended as a parallel, however.

[Bastian]

The whole point of this thread was to show that V was - from a storyline and psychological point of view, not a merely D&D one - not stupid.
I agree it probably wouldn't have even started should no outpouring of 'V is stupid' had take place.

Understanding the psychological facets of a character does not necessarily equate to absolution of said character from any responsibility for 'personality flaws'. V is a by-the-book tragic hero, but a hero nonetheless. And by definition, a tragic hero is bound to fall exactly because of an inner flaw the character is not able to overcome.

What makes it more interesting is that V, in extremis, did overcome that flaw at the perceived cost of V's life. The beauty of this narrative is the portrayal of the lights and the inner darkness of a character. And the gray areas in between.

As far as responsibility goes, I would go as far as to claim that V - as each one of us - is responsible for his/her every actions, thoughts and mental states. You named depression, and yes, on a deeper level, who is responsible for a mental state if not the person that generates it? But that does not subtract anything from the beautiful (fictional or not) struggle for awareness and growth.

But I am sidetracking the discussion. The real point of the post was to recruit new cultists. I have been observing you for a while, and I think you might have potential. Of course, you displayed a penchant of introspection and free thinking. Which is not really a desired trait. But that can be corrected with the right indoctrination. After all, 'an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded' used to say a colleague in the same business.

[AstralFire]

Oh, I agree. Wonderful storytelling. But as I was one of the first people balking at how Vaarsuvius was acting way back when we started this flashforward, I just kinda feel obligated to get my digs in on the elf, yanno? :smallamused: 'course, when I was saying it, almost everyone still loved V for whatever reason, so things are rather topsy-turvy relatively speaking.

I doubt I'd fit too well in the cult, though. For starters, if I start posting here too much, I'll feel an obligation to get back into my homebrew projects. (I can already hear their siren call.)

[King of Nowhere]

Choie, you are saying the very things I wanted to say - only you are expressing them far better than I could ever have done.
I was also going to make a thread "V wasn't always that way" but I didn't in the end.

I would also like to point out how V tryed to persuade the potion sellers to ask hir a greater price for the potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html). How many of us would reject an opportunity to buy undercost and insist to pay more?

[Moriarty]

Problem is I'm not seeing the life-changing epiphany; we've just been treated to V being an idiot for the past however-many strips, and as far as I know he still has an evil alignment from the splice. So now he turns back because the paladin that saved his life is being promised even worse treatment for that and suddenly he's awesome and on the road to recovery from his evil, evil ways? I don't think so.

what "evil, evil" ways are you talking about?

the only thing close to evil was familicide on the MBD, altough in OOTSverse, slaughtering "innocent" evil monsters is not an evil act. (the paladins didn't fall when killing goblin children)

V got pretty arrogant during the splice, wanted to test his newfound powers and the MBD had just bad luck trying to attack Vs family that day

[choie]

^^ edited to add -- Moriarty, you're forgetting the Kubota killing. Lots of people think that was evil. YMMV, of course.

Thanks for all the kind words, guys. I'm just glad to have articulated what others are thinking! The few, the proud, the V-apologists!


I'm just... leery of the pendulum swinging the other way where V is absolutely absolved of guilt or criticism.

Yeah, somehow I doubt that's gonna happen. :) Plus, no one is absolving V absolutely. This thread was a reaction to the numerous critical comments (heck, some folks have been actually rooting for V's death in this arc) that I felt were taking a shallow, worst-possible view of V's many mistakes. I wanted to respond to from a more in-depth psychological perspective and show that not all the errors were simple dumbassery, and not all of the decisions were maliciously-motivated.


In some ways, some people I know (besides myself) are very similar to V, and saying "well, that aspect of my personality is uncontrollable, so depression resulting is not my fault - only the actions I take afterward," is not a very productive way to deal with it in my experience, since it's not dealing with the earliest controllable root of an issue.

Yes, there are sometimes certain ways you can stave it off, if you have the proper mental tools and are in a healthy frame of mind, but it's not a matter of "weakness" or "blame" if you can't. As you note, there are chemical and physical elements to depression (and many other mental illnesses) that can't be shrugged off. I don't know why you make light of the serotonin issue, since it's not coincidental in most depressive people. Okay, we don't know if V has serotonin or not (being, y'know, a fictional elf! :D) but even if not, ascribing blame is pretty pointless when someone is suffering. Indeed, I have to argue that to the contrary, it's not productive to blame and point fingers after the fact. What's the point? Why is it so important for people to stamp a big fat BLAME! tag on others' -- or their own -- foreheads? Getting better is hard enough work without the huge negative labeling. Certainly once someone is out of the abyss, one can look at the issues that led to it, but even then it's rarely something that could've been completely prevented. Sometimes those issues are the result of such a unique concatination of events that it's hard to decide: "oh yes, this is why I went into a downward spiral; that explains it all!"

In V's case, there was a perfect storm of problems. First and obviously, V's undeniable overreliance on arcane magic. Why does s/he rely so much on it? Well, we don't really know V's backstory (prior to OtOoPCs, at least) enough to explain why it's so all-fired important to Vaarsuvius. But it is. Learning that arcane magic is not the be-all and end-all is the whole point of this arc, so it seems useless to complain that V hasn't realized it before now. The universe, also known as Rich, is conspiring against V in order to a) showcase a wicked awesome adventure, b) move the plot forward in a believable, necessary and captivating way, and c) teach V this much-needed lesson to deepen his/her characterization.

So okay, we know V's into arcane magic like whoa. Another flaw? Control-freakitude. Girlfriend (or boyfriend) reeeeallly needs to think s/he can impose order on a really screwed up world. Of course, throughout V's adventures with OOTS, this overwhelming need to control everything through intelligence and magic has continually slammed up against the chaotic, inexplicable, and sometimes utterly cruel reality. V seems to have been able to deal with these unsettling truths for quite a while. What happened? It was the fight at Azure City that tipped the scales against V's sanity.

Why? Well, as others (in particular I think it was the fabulous Kaytara) wisely noted above, when V's mistakes (or simple inabilities) started affecting others -- and in devastating, irrevocable, fatal ways -- V cracked. S/he can deal with failures, but apparently if those failures add up to causing harm to others (particularly those s/he cares about), that's too much to handle. V has far too high expectations of him/herself, and the rapid succession of non-successes (the Death Knight, Roy's death, the wall breach, V's lack of spells, losing V's best friend behind enemy lines, the soldiers dying in front of V, continually being thwarted on scrying... My God, this is more than enough to break anyone, much less someone who expects so much of him/herself.


More general point: every time V does something good, he is not necessarily being a martyr; his rescue of O-Chul was daring and commendable, but (as several people have now remarked) not an intentional sacrifice, not that one would have been very logical there. Every time V does something bad, he is not necessarily being Hitler.

.... You mean reality is something in the middle? Who'd've thunk it? Oh wait ... almost everyone. :) I just don't see anyone calling V a complete martyr who has no reservations whatsoever about throwing his/her life away.

I don't think V wanted to sacrifice him/herself with O-Chul, but I DO think s/he was resigned to it being a very real possibility of going back into the castle. V isn't blind or stupid*, s/he knew all too well that s/he's almost pathetically overmatched and defenseless. V knew walking back to O-Chul, mere feet away from Xykon, was ridiculously dangerous and likely to end in capture. Obviously that doesn't mean that V was gonna pour the potions down O-Chul's throat and just stand there for the hell of it; of course V tried to get away once more. You don't have to commit suicide in order to be lauded for extreme self-sacrifice and bravery.


So for V caring for others: it's clear that he does, and should have been clear to many without archive digging because of the introduction of Kyrie. Despite that, it must be kept in mind that he did, in fact, leave his SigOth with young kids on a journey that originally had no purpose but power. I don't think we'll ever get a clear answer one way or the other given that he is making a dramatic turnabout now, but I think the prior suggests that V cares for others in a very selfish manner.

All righty, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you here and let it go. I just can't really understand what "caring for others in a selfish manner" means. We all have selfish reasons for caring for others. Yes, even parents. I get something personally out of my love for my family: it makes me feel warm; protecting them makes me feel good about myself. Of course I do it for them, but I also do so because I want to know I'm a loving, caring, strong individual. If that makes me like V, well, I can deal with that. :)

* see thread title. :)

P.S. A belated warm thanks to Bastian for your sympathetic words about my namesake. It was actually many years ago, but I use this name in her ongoing memory 'cause she was just that kickass a cat. These days I fortunately am now blessed with three other cats who are wonderful in their own way. :smallsmile:

[AstralFire]

Yeah, somehow I doubt that's gonna happen. :)

I've seen it happen with many web fandoms. Your original counterpointing is admirable, but I just wanted to put in... a complementary, contrasting few words. There's nothing wrong with that OP.


Yes, there are sometimes certain ways you can stave it off, if you have the proper mental tools and are in a healthy frame of mind, but it's not a matter of "weakness" or "blame" if you can't. As you note, there are chemical and physical elements to depression (and many other mental illnesses) that can't be shrugged off. I don't know why you make light of the serotonin issue, since it's not coincidental in most depressive people. Okay, we don't know if V has serotonin or not (being, y'know, a fictional elf! :D) but even if not, ascribing blame is pretty pointless when someone is suffering.

That one's easy - because I cannot see any good storytelling for this kind of a tale if it's ultimately a chemical imbalance. I have not gotten much of a vibe of 'people against their natures' as much as 'tragic heroism' from this arc.


Indeed, I have to argue that to the contrary, it's not productive to blame and point fingers after the fact. What's the point? Why is it so important for people to stamp a big fat BLAME! tag on others' -- or their own -- foreheads? Getting better is hard enough work without the huge negative labeling. Certainly once someone is out of the abyss, one can look at the issues that led to it, but even then it's rarely something that could've been completely prevented. Sometimes those issues are the result of such a unique concatination of events that it's hard to decide: "oh yes, this is why I went into a downward spiral; that explains it all!"

There is such a thing as tact... If I were speaking to V, I would not be 'stamping a big fat BLAME! tag' on him. I am not, therefore I don't have to use diplomacy. Helping someone to identify where they should be taking responsibility is not the same as trying to find someone to blame for the sake of someone to blame; don't confuse the two.


I don't think V wanted to sacrifice him/herself with O-Chul, but I DO think s/he was resigned to it being a very real possibility of going back into the castle. V isn't blind or stupid*, s/he knew all too well that s/he's almost pathetically overmatched and defenseless. V knew walking back to O-Chul, mere feet away from Xykon, was ridiculously dangerous and likely to end in capture. Obviously that doesn't mean that V was gonna pour the potions down O-Chul's throat and just stand there for the hell of it; of course V tried to get away once more. You don't have to commit suicide in order to be lauded for extreme self-sacrifice and bravery.

I've already called the act laudable, so we're in agreement; calm down. As I said, I was restating what had already been said, for emphasis.


All righty, I'm just gonna have to disagree with you here and let it go. I just can't really understand what "caring for others in a selfish manner" means. We all have selfish reasons for caring for others. Yes, even parents. I get something personally out of my love for my family: it makes me feel warm; protecting them makes me feel good about myself. Of course I do it for them, but I also do so because I want to know I'm a loving, caring, strong individual. If that makes me like V, well, I can deal with that. :)

I suppose I should have elaborated here, but it's hard to state well. I did flub that; essentially, one can care for others while still being a fairly selfish individual. As you said, a truth in-between. I mean, he's not quite a deadbeat dad... but it's not the sort of thing we'd really be a big fan of IRL.

You wrote an apologia. I'm arguing a moderatio. People unconsciously take a lot of moral cues from the fiction they read. Both a person's sympathetic points and failings should be understood, and this seems a good thread to get them both in on.

[Kaytara]

Astralfire, sorry, I think you're just reading way too much into my comment. ^^; I'm not talking about thinking about one's flaws or acting on them. It was just an offhand comment addressing the argument that Vaarsuvius is to blame for having a high expectation of himself. Let's just leave it at that...


Mere Speculation: I wouldn't be surprised if (during the comic's fastforward) he received attempts to be cheered up by Elan and Durkon and shrugged them off. It'd be rather out of character for the former to not attempt it even if he didn't know why specifically V was so upset.

I don't know, I think what little evidence we have points against that. At the wedding, Durkon says he hadn't seen V for several weeks... And that was before he realised that V had a problem. Plus, there's Elan's "Have you talked to Vaarsuvius? About anything?" comment. I don't really get the vibe that they were making many attempts to find out what was wrong with him, rather that they were just going about their business and leaving Vaarsuvius to his research. Either is possible, of course, but to me the comic reads like they didn't have much contact at all during all these months.

But anyway, they DID know what was bothering him, or at least thought they knew. Durkon just thought that V was concerned about not being able to "win". He didn't see someone traumatised, he saw someone bitching around that they didn't get a top score on the latest test. Besides, we've already seen that Durkon isn't very good at the whole people intuition thing - it's usually V who's the sensitive one, ironically enough.


Edit: He got at least one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html).

Are you implying that Vaarsuvius rejected the attempt to cheer him up there? I don't think this applies. Durkon starts comforting him, and in response V pretty much spills out everything that's been bothering him. One strip later, Durkon... uses it against him. With angry eyebrows, no less. Not really the way you deal with someone you're trying to comfort, it's the way you show that you don't much care for what's bothering them. They apologised to each other afterwards, but Durkon may have blown his role as V's potential confidante that moment.

I think Durkon is particularly well-characterised there, for someone considered to be a bland character by most. He has high wisdom and low charisma - that is, he can see V's problem (or part of it) but can't really do anything about it, because he doesn't have the tact and sensitivity to get people to open up to him, much less listen to him or accept his advice. (Especially when that advice is phrased in a "tactful" variation of "Jus' git o'er it already, ye foolish elf!")
Another key trait of his is preferring to follow rather than lead. He doesn't often take the initiative, he prefers to stay and let the problem solve itself rather than deciding "There is something wrong with Vaarsuvius. I need to come up with a way to find out what it is and make the elf better."


Plus, no one is absolving V absolutely. This thread was a reaction to the numerous critical comments (heck, some folks have been actually rooting for V's death in this arc) that I felt were taking a shallow, worst-possible view of V's many mistakes. I wanted to respond to from a more in-depth psychological perspective and show that not all the errors were simple dumbassery, and not all of the decisions were maliciously-motivated.

Quoted for emphasis like WHOA. One thing I've noticed on these boards (and with people in general) is that if you start expressing criticism of an extreme position (e.g. "Vaarsuvius should die!"), people will often automatically assume that you are defending the opposite extreme position. ("Vaarsuvius is a saint!")

For example, the other day I was discussing Kyrie's and V's fight with someone and was criticising Kyrie's behaviour in that encounter (mostly because I still couldn't get over how everyone praised her common sense when the strip first came out), and the other person's rebuttal included bringing up all the ways Vaarsuvius had screwed up in that encounter. Fine, except that I had never said that I thought HE had acted well, just that Kyrie's performance was overrated.

It can become frustrating when you're arguing and yet not really arguing at all, because the other person has a false idea of what your position is and responds based on that idea rather than on your arguments. Which isn't to say that I'm certain I haven't been guilty of this myself, because I probably have... though I try to stick to replying to what people are actually saying rather than what I think they would say about other topics.

[tribble]

One thing I've noticed on these boards (and with people in general) is that if you start expressing criticism of an extreme position (e.g. "Vaarsuvius should die!"), people will often automatically assume that you are defending the opposite extreme position.



Quoted for Truth.

[AstralFire]

Quoted for emphasis like WHOA. One thing I've noticed on these boards (and with people in general) is that if you start expressing criticism of an extreme position (e.g. "Vaarsuvius should die!"), people will often automatically assume that you are defending the opposite extreme position. ("Vaarsuvius is a saint!")

It can become frustrating when you're arguing and yet not really arguing at all, because the other person has a false idea of what your position is and responds based on that idea rather than on your arguments.

*nods* I'm not really arguing much against the main post. (I started getting long-winded in response to later comments). I am, in fact, arguing based on 'that idea' for posterity's sake for anyone who reads the thread. I thought I'd made it clear that that was my intention, but I'll reiterate the once more.

I'm placing it on this thread in particular because people are mostly reasoning and out and hearing each other here, and also because this is the particular time I'm starting to get the time to hang out on message boards again.

Regarding your points on Durkon, I was citing that event as supporting evidence that they'd have tried to speak to him; supposition of rejection is just that, a supposition, but one I find very likely considering Durkon's lack of tact and Elan's lack of analytical thought and focus (despite a, at times, startling insight.) That particular event I wouldn't cite as a rejection so much as a train wreck.

[Kaytara]

Regarding your points on Durkon, I was citing that event as supporting evidence that they'd have tried to speak to him; supposition of rejection is just that, a supposition, but one I find very likely considering Durkon's lack of tact and Elan's lack of analytical thought and focus (despite a, at times, startling insight.) That particular event I wouldn't cite as a rejection so much as a train wreck.

I see. Well, as I said, I disagree with the idea that Durkon or Elan had tried to do something about Vaarsuvius - as I explained in my previous post, I got the impression that they'd mostly just left him alone because they didn't know how to deal with him and hoped that he'd snap out of it by himself. Potentially helpful interactions with V seem to be limited to "Ye need ta stop, this isn't healthy for ye anymore", which, while correct, isn't really helpful. So I'm getting the impression is that they tried to convince V to start trancing again and whatnot without really relating to him and once he rejected that, they gave up.


You know... on a completely separate note, what's probably the root of the more dramatic debates about Vaarsuvius is that there really is no right or wrong way to interpret these events. There usually isn't, of course, but even less so with Vaarsuvius. Rich seems to enjoy keeping things ambiguous about him. It's completely possible to interpret Vaarsuvius to have bad motives in pretty much any action, just as the reverse is possible, without stretching things too much. For example, you can argue that V's self-obsessed streak isn't natural and has only developed due to the copious amounts of stress, or you can believe that it is actually the "true" side of him that was just now brought to the foreground, and both interpretations are legitimate. It ultimately comes down to how you WANT to interpret it, and whether you WANT to see V as a positive or negative character. Personally, I LOVE ambiguous characters, so I was actually quite happy that V became somewhat less likeable back during the fleet arc... So that's the interpretation I'm clinging to - besides, as Choie pointed out, Rich went through excessive amounts of trouble if he merely wanted to portray Vaarsuvius as irredeemably evil, so the alternative explanation makes more sense from a meta perspective, as well...

[AstralFire]

Regarding Durkon and Elan, I'm going to let that one lie, because I'm not interested in extensive archive trawling to 'prove' or 'disprove' mere suppositions when there's not a lot concrete either way.

That's a pretty succinct explanation - you left out the interest from a certain subset of the D&D crowd in Vaarsuvius because he's one of the favorite classes due to its concept (A GOD AM I) and mechanical capability (A GOD AM I) intersect surprisingly well... and the subsequent unhappiness when he didn't play by the long established rules of how to play a wizard 'right'. I really suspect a lot of the sudden backlash lately resulted in trickledown from that.

For my own part, I got irritated when it looked like V was being a jerk with little good explanation and was allowed to get away with it scot-free, both in the fandom and in story. Since that point he's revealed a level of depth and also gotten punished very hard by karma (overly so, some would say). :P The social moralist in me just fears a return to "Hah V is awesome eh is a jerk but through blind luck correctly assesses and deals with a situation and doesn't afraid of anything." (The blind luck here being the whole dealy on the island of the orcs.)

[Kaytara]

Yeah, you're probably on to something there. I don't play DnD, so I wasn't aware of the whole "dissatisfaction with how V is played as a wizard" angle. Thanks for bringing it up. :)

[Bastian]

P.S. A belated warm thanks to Bastian for your sympathetic words about my namesake. It was actually many years ago, but I use this name in her ongoing memory 'cause she was just that kickass a cat. These days I fortunately am now blessed with three other cats who are wonderful in their own way. :smallsmile:


Thanks to you :smallwink: and please stroke your wonderful-in-their-own-way cats for me :smallsmile:

[Pronounceable]

That's a pretty succinct explanation - you left out the interest from a certain subset of the D&D crowd in Vaarsuvius because he's one of the favorite classes due to its concept (A GOD AM I) and mechanical capability (A GOD AM I) intersect surprisingly well... and the subsequent unhappiness when he didn't play by the long established rules of how to play a wizard 'right'. I really suspect a lot of the sudden backlash lately resulted in trickledown from that.

Hey, I never noticed that. You're right, some people can be weird enough to be ticked off because V is woefully ineffective for a wizard of his level. I'm traditional enough to think blasting away is the real way to play a wizard so I like V's style and would never think of that issue myself.

That doesn't absolve the incredible inanity of it, however.

[Snails]

That's a pretty succinct explanation - you left out the interest from a certain subset of the D&D crowd in Vaarsuvius because he's one of the favorite classes due to its concept (A GOD AM I) and mechanical capability (A GOD AM I) intersect surprisingly well... and the subsequent unhappiness when he didn't play by the long established rules of how to play a wizard 'right'. I really suspect a lot of the sudden backlash lately resulted in trickledown from that.

V is really old. He may have built his character concept back when the universe was 2e, and straightforward aggression was actually the more reliable route. ;)