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2009-05-29, 05:59 PM
So in my group there is a person wanting to play a Vow of Poverty character, and for some insane reason wants to try using Vow of Poverty.

First off, I don't think this is possible using the RAW as the rules state that a spell component pouch is the max amount of stuff you can carry in terms of spells. A wizard's spellbook is costly and could be sold for big bucks so a VoP character wouldn't have one. The player suggested that his character had tatoos all over his body of his spells, up to level 9, so he could have spells read off of his body each morning (Hooray nudity...).
First of all, is there a way to tatoo spells to your body?
How much space should one spell take up on the body?
Are there different ways in which one can get spells as a wizard without a spellbook other than massive feat abuse?

Should this even be allowed? I really don't see the point of a VoP wizard as the wizard shouldn't be in combat much and VoP is mostly beneficial for monk/druid types. What do you think?

Siosilvar
2009-05-29, 06:03 PM
First of all, is there a way to tatoo spells to your body?

This is detailed in Complete Arcane. I can't remember how much space there is, though. Looking it up now... Page 186-7.

Hand: 1 page each
Arm: 6 pages each
Chest: 6 pages
Abdomen: 6 pages
Leg: 10 pages each
Foot: 1 page each
Face (w/ mirror): 2 pages
Head (w/mirror): 4 pages
Back (w/mirror): 14 pages
Back of Leg (w/mirror): 4 pages each
Back of Arm (w/mirror): 2 pages each

Total: 80 spell levels

He'll have to make do with his 2 spells/wizard level. Make sure he knows this, as he won't be able to buy scrolls.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-29, 06:04 PM
Still wouldn't work...he would still lose VoP when he needed his spell components. Bumming them from a friend dosn't cut it when you do it every turn

Omegonthesane
2009-05-29, 06:05 PM
Without reference to the wording of VoP, I suggest the poor Wizard takes the suggestion from the Dungeonomicon - he doesn't have a spellbook written in expensive ink, he has a doodle book hidden by lots of 0gp Secret Page illusions that happen to detail all the spells he knows of.

As for a way to tattoo spells onto your body... If it can be written, it can be tattooed.

But really your best bet is making this guy play a Sorcerer instead, Sorcerers need no such expensive and heavy worldly trappings as spellbooks. :P

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-29, 06:06 PM
A VoP Wizard should not be allowed in any campaign, as even the tattoo version has a price tag expressed in gp.

Really, just put your foot down and tell him to play a normal Wizard. It's actually better for him, as he loses out on a number of VoP's features. Most of the bonus feats are useless to him, and the whole Weapon enhancement thing is also worthless (he has no need for a melee weapon).

HP McLuvin
2009-05-29, 06:06 PM
...What do you think?
I think...let him. Either your DM allows it or he doesn't. If it works, great, if not...he dies and rolls a new character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-29, 06:07 PM
VoP is most beneficial to casters, who can compensate for the lack of items with spells. A VoP character without magical Flight is completely useless against things with Flight(which is most everything after level 10).

As to balance, the BoEF had a class that was basically the Wizard with dual-attribute casting, tattoos instead of a spellbook, and Domain access. I'd say the tattoo thing is balanced. There was no limit to the number or loction(apparently, the tattoo artist can write really small:smalltongue:).

Omegonthesane
2009-05-29, 06:09 PM
VoP is most beneficial to casters, who can compensate for the lack of items with spells. A VoP character without magical Flight is completely useless against things with Flight(which is most everything after level 10).

As to balance, the BoEF had a class that was basically the Wizard with dual-attribute casting, tattoos instead of a spellbook, and Domain access. I'd say the tattoo thing is balanced. There was no limit to the number or loction(apparently, the tattoo artist can write really small:smalltongue:).

I could probably conjure up an Epic spell that writes microdot spells if it wasn't past midnight over here in England.

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 06:10 PM
Still wouldn't work...he would still lose VoP when he needed his spell components. Bumming them from a friend dosn't cut it when you do it every turn
Eschew Materials. For the expensive components, just don't use them. You don't need to Forcecage every turn.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 06:11 PM
Vow of Poverty: Sorcerer makes more sense. Wizard? Doesn't work since he'll never have spells to cast aside from Read Magic.

sonofzeal
2009-05-29, 06:12 PM
VoP Sorcerer with Eschew Materials is entirely playable and legal. As a DM, I'd let a Wizard do the same thing, with the explicit understanding that he can only ever get the 2/level spells. Should work.

BlueWizard
2009-05-29, 06:13 PM
This isn't possible. Maybe a sorcerer.

J.Gellert
2009-05-29, 06:19 PM
It's not like the VoP will give him anything he can't get by buffing...

Edit: And if he gets spells from enemy spellbooks, he won't break the code. Doesn't have to buy scrolls.

Kosjsjach
2009-05-29, 06:30 PM
The text for the Vow of Poverty feat says "you may carry and use a spell component pouch." Also, "an ascetic spellcaster can sacrifice experience points in place of expensive components, with 1 XP equivalent to 5 gp value of components." However, I think you guys might be right on the spellbook issue. At the very least, the wizard should never get spells beyond what he gets free at each level, due to the scribing costs. Additionally, "you may not use any magic item of any sort", and that severely handicaps a wizard. No scrolls, wands or staffs. I'll agree that sorcerer would be better for an arcane VoP.

A cloistered cleric/ninja/shadowbane stalker with Vow of Poverty, on the other hand... :smallbiggrin:
...*cough* yeah, I may have a VoP build floating around...

AgentPaper
2009-05-29, 06:35 PM
Suggest that he be a sorcerer, but if he really wants to be a wizard, just tell him he has to make his spellbook by hand, and collect spell components himself as well. Eschew materials is probably a good idea and should be suggested.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-29, 06:37 PM
Eschew Materials. For the expensive components, just don't use them. You don't need to Forcecage every turn.

Up to 1 gold. There are plenty of useful spells that have a higher cost than that that you would want to cast.

No sane DM would let this slide.

2009-05-29, 06:43 PM
And if he gets spells from enemy spellbooks, he won't break the code. Doesn't have to buy scrolls.


Now there is a pretty attractive idea... that might work out just fine.
As for eschew materials, I think it works a little differently than we are thinking here, doesn't it just allow for material components that are not expensive to be done away with, so the expensive ones which couldn't have anyway are still not allowed?
As for asking to be a sorcerer: I did. He said he wanted to be a wizard. *sigh*
As for spell components, regardless of whether or not he was a wizard or sorcerer, you still need costly spell components right?

2009-05-29, 06:45 PM
Suggest that he be a sorcerer, but if he really wants to be a wizard, just tell him he has to make his spellbook by hand, and collect spell components himself as well. Eschew materials is probably a good idea and should be suggested.

Also a good idea, if its handmade/handpicked book/materials I think it fits perfectly with the flavor of a VoP character.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-29, 06:45 PM
Edit: And if he gets spells from enemy spellbooks, he won't break the code. Doesn't have to buy scrolls.

No....you can't own anything that costs money either. Unless you want to cheat and say its one of your "Friends" and your just scribing....again most sane DM's would put the hammer on this level of abuse

Dagren
2009-05-29, 07:02 PM
No....you can't own anything that costs money either. Unless you want to cheat and say its one of your "Friends" and your just scribing....again most sane DM's would put the hammer on this level of abuseI wouldn't say that's much in the way of abuse. One of your friends loots the spellbook, and you copy the spells before he sells it. At no point do you own the book by any means.

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 07:03 PM
Up to 1 gold. There are plenty of useful spells that have a higher cost than that that you would want to cast.

No sane DM would let this slide.
...I am quite aware of this. That's why I said that you have to suck up not using the expensive spells. Please do read posts before mashing Quote.

Trizap
2009-05-29, 07:08 PM
no, either tell him to forget the VoP: Wizard and play a normal wizard, or tell him to play a VoP: Sorcerer.

Innis Cabal
2009-05-29, 07:10 PM
...I am quite aware of this. That's why I said that you have to suck up not using the expensive spells. Please do read posts before mashing Quote.

I did. Please not that I said there were spells with higher costs then 1 gold you'd want to cast -every- day.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 07:17 PM
I wouldn't say that's much in the way of abuse. One of your friends loots the spellbook, and you copy the spells before he sells it. At no point do you own the book by any means.

A spellbook is inherently worthless. It's the spells in it that are worth money. Further, the spell copying mechani (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)c of the wizard inherently breaks the rules for VoP.

Specifically:


Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

Meaning a 0th or 1st level spell costs 100gp(the maximum you can ever own under VoP). A 2nd level costs 200gp and automatically breaks your vow.

It is out and out impossible, period, to play a VoP Wizard with spells other than what they learn for free.

AgentPaper
2009-05-29, 07:20 PM
Meaning a 0th or 1st level spell costs 100gp(the maximum you can ever own under VoP). A 2nd level costs 200gp and automatically breaks your vow.

It is out and out impossible, period, to play a VoP Wizard with spells other than what they learn for free.

SOMEONE made those scribing components. There's no reason the wizard can't make them himself. It'll take a helluva lot longer than just buying them, but he can do it.

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 07:31 PM
I did. Please not that I said there were spells with higher costs then 1 gold you'd want to cast -every- day.
Yes, but VoP's whole point is that you get bonuses in exchange for things you give away. You just happen to give away some more. A VoP Monk will still want to hit Incorporeal and Flying enemies -every day-.

J.Gellert
2009-05-29, 07:37 PM
No....you can't own anything that costs money either. Unless you want to cheat and say its one of your "Friends" and your just scribing....again most sane DM's would put the hammer on this level of abuse

You don't own it. You use it and then discard it. In the end it's just garbage - you only care about the knowledge contained within!

Even so, you could actually ask another mage to teach you from his spellbook/let you copy spells without killing him first. That way no one will say you owned the spellbook at any point.

Now spellbooks are expensive things so I don't know how you could keep your own spellbook. Tattoos? Someone might argue they are worth money as well, so you can't have them. But if they are allowed, you could use the "Always summon the same creature" variant and tattoo your summoned Fiendish Giant Constrictors so you can use them later to memorize spells...

Or - you tattoo a normal snake, kill it, skin it, and make a spellbook from its hide. Silly? Yes it is, but Vow of Povery is a silly feat to begin with.

Zeful
2009-05-29, 08:15 PM
SOMEONE made those scribing components. There's no reason the wizard can't make them himself. It'll take a helluva lot longer than just buying them, but he can do it.

Depends, do things you forage have value? If yes, then you still can't scribe second level spells, because the value of what you foraged is still over the limit.
If no, then you can't because you don't have 200gp worth of materials with which to scribe.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 08:20 PM
SOMEONE made those scribing components. There's no reason the wizard can't make them himself. It'll take a helluva lot longer than just buying them, but he can do it.

It still costs Xg to make. Crafting is like that. Either way it inherently fails.

Mystic Muse
2009-05-29, 08:26 PM
DON"T LET HIM.
no not even then. it makes his character useless. if he continually insists upon doing this tell your other players he's going on a solo quest:smallamused:

tomb of horrors is my suggestion. he'll never try something that stupid ever again. unless he's as stupid as a wizard who takes a vow of poverty. if his character was insane this might make sense but otherwise it doesn't neither from a player's point of view or the characters. a wizard would know that higher level spells cost a lot of money considering they probably TRAINED under a high level one. so them taking a vow of poverty wouldn't make any sense.

sonofzeal
2009-05-29, 08:34 PM
Is it legal? No, probably not. Scribing costs and spellbook price and all that. There's no real way for a Wizard to keep VoP and still cast spells.

Is it balanced? If you allowed your Wiz to take VoP and still use his 2/level spells and standard spellslots... he might be a bit on the weak side, but not critically.

Conclusion: if he really wants to do it, houserule it for him. No reason you shouldn't. Skip or alter the spellbook system so that it works with VoP.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-05-29, 08:34 PM
Yes, totally doable if your insane enough.

Eschew materials, plus the natural ability to burn xp instead of having material components naturally part of the VoP means you don't have to worry about a component pouch (and the xp loss is about the same as that of a wizard that makes scrolls, so your not gimping yourself too much).

And you borrow the rogues sharp dagger and carve spells into your flesh, using heal checks to allow scars to form, and you become your own spell book with no additional cost. Make sure you place all important spells on the front of you, and the less useful ones where you need to use a mirror (as you'll have to borrow one whilst preparing spells, so you want to avoid having to do that all the time).

So yes, you use your own soul (xp) for raw energy, and scar up your body, I did say you had to be insane didn't I? But it works, I had a NPC in one of my games with that exact build (as well as a shorthand feat which allowed spells to be scribed in a more complex format but take up less space, made preparing those spells slower as you had to decipher each one but it allowed more spells to be "tattooed" to him). Just expect a lot of down time, and ensure you befriend a guild or have a very understanding tutor which will allow you access to spell books to copy from (which isn't owning so is allowed).

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 09:02 PM
Be a masochist while you're at it, see if you can combine the bonuses from that and the stabbing-yourself-spellbook.
Also, this is a great RP chance: this Wizard, unlike all others, does not delight in gaining new spells. He grudgingly applies them only to pull his weight, but he would really rather not.

2009-05-29, 09:42 PM
I think there is going to be some major houseruling involved if I am going to let him. Going to try and convince him out but if he insists... we'll see.

Something I did think of was when he takes the VoP. The VoP can be taken at any time as long as you lose everything and start the vow. When you do I believe you get all of the features of the VoP up to your level, minus the exalted feats. If taken at a later level after applying all the tatoos, I would allow it. This way no oath broken and he gets his skinbook. This would also allow skin grafts... interesting.

Another thing I have a question about. There are some prestige classes that have class features of added spells. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is master specialist, are there any others?

And one more thing. If he is allowed to tattoo spells onto his skin, why not braid it into his hermit's clothing? (this is assuming I let him copy new spells...) Any thoughts on that? I looked at alternate spellbooks in Complete Arcane but besides carving it into a staff I didn't find much.

Zeful
2009-05-29, 09:54 PM
I'm pretty sure the Alternate spellbooks still cost the same to "scribe" in, so it would still count against his allowed wealth, so even if he tattooed spells to his skin, he would have to horrifically flay himself once he took the feat.

vartan
2009-05-29, 10:10 PM
I don't have the FRCG in front of me, but doesn't the Arcane Schooling Feat let you prepare a number of spells equal to your INT modifier without the use of a spellbook? That could help in the first levels.

Forbiddenwar
2009-05-29, 10:21 PM
And one more thing. If he is allowed to tattoo spells onto his skin, why not braid it into his hermit's clothing? (this is assuming I let him copy new spells...) Any thoughts on that? I looked at alternate spellbooks in Complete Arcane but besides carving it into a staff I didn't find much.

Added note. Under VOP he can have a staff, nonmagical. So maybe that can be his spell book?

Yes it is hard and would be much easier as a sorc. but it is doable. The rule does allow for material components pouch, and use of XP to cast spells that have costly gp components. So, when they were making VOP they were thinking spellcaster as well as other classes.

Flickerdart
2009-05-29, 10:23 PM
Added note. Under VOP he can have a staff, nonmagical. So maybe that can be his spell book?
And the more spells he knows, the bigger it is? Certainly would work better for comparing magical aptitude with other wizards...and at the end, he'd have a 10ft pole.

The_Werebear
2009-05-29, 10:24 PM
I think there is going to be some major houseruling involved if I am going to let him. Going to try and convince him out but if he insists... we'll see.

Something I did think of was when he takes the VoP. The VoP can be taken at any time as long as you lose everything and start the vow. When you do I believe you get all of the features of the VoP up to your level, minus the exalted feats. If taken at a later level after applying all the tatoos, I would allow it. This way no oath broken and he gets his skinbook. This would also allow skin grafts... interesting.

Another thing I have a question about. There are some prestige classes that have class features of added spells. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is master specialist, are there any others?

And one more thing. If he is allowed to tattoo spells onto his skin, why not braid it into his hermit's clothing? (this is assuming I let him copy new spells...) Any thoughts on that? I looked at alternate spellbooks in Complete Arcane but besides carving it into a staff I didn't find much.

Actually.... I think I recall someone on the boards talking about a character who had his spare spellbook written onto his waistwrap. It was something like a 16 foot length of foot wide silk wrapped like underwear around him.

I would allow him to brand his spells all over his burlap sack. Also, since each wizard apparently has their own spellcasting language, I suggest that his be a pattern of dots like braille. He can "read" spells scarred onto his face and back that way. No need for a mirror.

2009-05-30, 01:03 AM
hmm, interesting thought.
For the staff it says that one staff=9 pages. So not much, but helpful. I would probably allow a limit to the number of total pages on clothing, staff, and tattoos.
Interesting side note: You are allowed weapons with VoP, but you are not limited to just 1, you can have as many as you like... a Wizard's online article even mentioned the loophole. However, that will not fly.

Optimystik
2009-05-30, 01:19 AM
Be a masochist while you're at it, see if you can combine the bonuses from that and the stabbing-yourself-spellbook.
Also, this is a great RP chance: this Wizard, unlike all others, does not delight in gaining new spells. He grudgingly applies them only to pull his weight, but he would really rather not.

This raises an interesting question: How many spells could a tattooed Geometer (Complete Arcane) fit on his body?

2009-05-30, 01:23 AM
Geometer has one page spells right?

Belobog
2009-05-30, 02:07 AM
This raises an interesting question: How many spells could a tattooed Geometer (Complete Arcane) fit on his body?


This is detailed in Complete Arcane. I can't remember how much space there is, though. Looking it up now... Page 186-7.

Hand: 1 page each
Arm: 6 pages each
Chest: 6 pages
Abdomen: 6 pages
Leg: 10 pages each
Foot: 1 page each
Face (w/ mirror): 2 pages
Head (w/mirror): 4 pages
Back (w/mirror): 14 pages
Back of Leg (w/mirror): 4 pages each
Back of Arm (w/mirror): 2 pages each

Total: 80 spell levels

He'll have to make do with his 2 spells/wizard level. Make sure he knows this, as he won't be able to buy scrolls.

Apparently, 80. Which, all things considered, isn't bad.

TheDarkOne
2009-05-30, 02:40 AM
Is it legal? No, probably not. Scribing costs and spellbook price and all that. There's no real way for a Wizard to keep VoP and still cast spells.

Is it balanced? If you allowed your Wiz to take VoP and still use his 2/level spells and standard spellslots... he might be a bit on the weak side, but not critically.

Conclusion: if he really wants to do it, houserule it for him. No reason you shouldn't. Skip or alter the spellbook system so that it works with VoP.

I agree, you're still going to end up with a character who has no real worldly possessions beyond the bare minimum required for his role in the party. He'll still be taking his share of the treasure and donating it to charity. You could even make sure that the cost of scribing spells comes from other peoples share of wealth. The only other thing I would suggest is that you make it a violation of his vow to allow anyone to copy a spell out of his spell book or spell book equivalent, except under very special circumstances. This makes his spells effectively worthless(in a monetary sense).

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-30, 04:17 AM
This makes his spells effectively worthless(in a monetary sense).

Not quite. They still have worth because people place worth upon them. If he gives them away for free, then they would become worthless.

mostlyharmful
2009-05-30, 06:09 AM
Apparently, 80. Which, all things considered, isn't bad.

More if you can secret page them which is free now I look at it biut it is dispelable so it'd always be a risk to have him running around with his spell book so vulnerable. Doable with VoP though, just scarify your body with doodles and then take the vow at level 6 after recording all your spells onto your body.

Take Eschew materials and there's no rules reason why he can't add more secret pages to himself and keep all his 2/level spells. He just wont be able to add more without in game roleplay to beg friendly casters to do it for him.

He might also want that feat that gives you 4/level to up his versatility.

Lycanthromancer
2009-05-30, 07:20 AM
He could play an erudite (from Complete Psionic), which is a psion variant, and effectively a psion/wizard hybrid.

This takes care of the rules awkwardness, and he'll still be able to play an Int-based caster character, and can flavor the end-result any way he likes.

Lorien077
2009-05-30, 08:31 PM
Well, if he wants to do so for concept reasons I'd let him. With the following stipulations:
His spellbook is a ratty old book he found in the garbage, and he can only have the usual 2 spells/ level in it. No scrolls.
He needs to take eschew materials.
No expensive material components.

If he wants to try it, even if its not optimal at all, I don't see a problem with letting the player have some fun. O_o

CaptainCommando
2009-05-30, 10:11 PM
Wizard with a Vow of Poverty...

His spellbook is not material. Every day when "studying" he enters a meditative state in which he "views" his selection of spells like an oracle divining the future. The "vision" sears the arcane sigils into his mind. Perhaps he is remote viewing the magical archives of a patron deity of magic...or something else...

To make up for the absence of wand and stave use, just make up exalted feats with Vow of Poverty as a prerequisite to give the wizard more spell memory.

Whether the absence of expensive material or focus components matters depends on what spells the wizard intends to learn/use. In some cases the cost could simply be waived. Exert your power as a DM appropriately and it should be okay. If you're concerned about a particular spell, well that's what rpg forums are for. :smallsmile:

Emy
2009-05-30, 11:01 PM
Gnome Illusionist (substitution level) with Spell Mastery (Silent Image) into Shadowcraft Mage.

Silent image in every slot, from cantrips to 9th level spells. Who needs spellbooks?

Anteros
2009-05-30, 11:08 PM
Who cares? Yes, it stretches and maybe even breaks the rules. But does it break the game? No. It doesn't. It's not even remotely optimized.

Basically there is no good reason to say no. Let your players have their fun. The rules are only important when they protect the game as a whole. When they get in the way of everyone's fun you ignore them.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-30, 11:11 PM
People who want to reliably cast things other than Evocations and Conjurations that aren't Creation or Summons? Shadowcraft Mage helps, but it's not the be-all of end-all.

Narmoth
2009-05-31, 03:34 AM
On using trophy spellboks: he copies them, then sells them. He doesn't use up any of the value of the spellbook, so he's fine.
I'd homebrew it that he can keep the spellbook, but have to get donated, or make himself, all components to scribe new spells in it. (then again, my dm let me keep my 2h-sword in exchange for not having vop enchantment bonus on weapons)

Lord Loss
2009-05-31, 05:23 AM
I don't see a reason not to: his spellbook could be an old, worn out textbook, a family heirloom. As for the material components anyone ever heard of 'eshew materials'?

let him do it, man! It'd actually be cool 9and hilarious) for a while. besides once the fighter gets his fancy sword the rogue gets an invisibility potion and so on, he'll be begging to scrap the feat.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-31, 05:35 AM
I don't see any problem allowing a VoP wizard.

You just can't ever spend GP on anything, like scribing new spells or buying spell components with stated costs; you only get the free 2 per level. Tattooing is optional - I'd definitely allow a simple spellbook consisting of sacred writings. (You can forget about all those fancy options for protecting it from damage in Complete Arcane.) Or just about any alternative spellbook. Eschew Materials isn't necessary since a spell component pouch is allowed.

The game-balance/mechanical intent of the Vow is that you give up WBL, which is perfectly possible, if not a good idea, for a wizard. You never get wealth or the benefits thereof - no buying new spells, no copying them, no scrolls, none of that.

It's suboptimal, but hey, you're still a wizard. It can't be that bad.

Narmoth
2009-05-31, 05:38 AM
yeah, it doesn't give the wizard much. Only reason I took it for my pally, is that we were playing in a loot-starved setting, so I actually got better ac.
Of course, just as I have all requirements for it, we come to a place with a lot of stuff available.

Waspinator
2009-06-01, 12:04 AM
Dragon 357. Eidetic Spellcaster. You trade your familiar for no longer using a spellbook, instead using your photographic memory to memorize spells.

Cute_Riolu
2009-06-01, 12:38 AM
Seriously? Seriously, people?

I mean, come on. If the player wants to play a VoP wizard, then LET HIM. You're the DM, you can work out something with him yourself, instead of coming to the GitP boards and asking for help.

The point of a game is to have fun. D&D is a game. Ergo, its point is to have fun. If it doesn't destroy balance (any more than wizards already do), and the player would have fun with it, then why the boop shouldn't you let him? A DM's foremost job is to promote fun among his peers and himself.

[/minirant]

Yes, I know it sounds somewhat confrontational and rude. I apologize for that. Feh.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-01, 12:45 AM
Seriously? Seriously, people?

I mean, come on. If the player wants to play a VoP wizard, then LET HIM. You're the DM, you can work out something with him yourself, instead of coming to the GitP boards and asking for help.

The point of a game is to have fun. D&D is a game. Ergo, its point is to have fun. If it doesn't destroy balance (any more than wizards already do), and the player would have fun with it, then why the boop shouldn't you let him? A DM's foremost job is to promote fun among his peers and himself.

[/minirant]

Yes, I know it sounds somewhat confrontational and rude. I apologize for that. Feh.

Well....I think it would be fun to play a gnome that fires lasers from his eyes and shoots rainbow hearts from his nose when he sneezes.

But thats utterly insane and has no real use or reason in a game. But it proves your minirant isn't always the best way to go about things. Even freefrom RP has rules.

Berserk Monk
2009-06-01, 12:46 AM
So in my group there is a person wanting to play a Vow of Poverty character, and for some insane reason wants to try using Vow of Poverty.

First off, I don't think this is possible using the RAW as the rules state that a spell component pouch is the max amount of stuff you can carry in terms of spells. A wizard's spellbook is costly and could be sold for big bucks so a VoP character wouldn't have one. The player suggested that his character had tatoos all over his body of his spells, up to level 9, so he could have spells read off of his body each morning (Hooray nudity...).
First of all, is there a way to tatoo spells to your body?
How much space should one spell take up on the body?
Are there different ways in which one can get spells as a wizard without a spellbook other than massive feat abuse?

Should this even be allowed? I really don't see the point of a VoP wizard as the wizard shouldn't be in combat much and VoP is mostly beneficial for monk/druid types. What do you think?

There's a feat in the PHB that lets a wisard prepare a few spells without a spellbook. I also remember you can tattoo them on your body. I forget the book: I think it was Unearthed Arcana or Complete Arcane. However, you will need a mirror to check some locations on your body (back for example).

Just some advice: go sorcerer for this. Making a wizard with vow of poverty is a horrible idea.

Innis Cabal
2009-06-01, 12:58 AM
Just some advice: go sorcerer for this. Making a wizard with vow of poverty is a horrible idea.

This still won't save you from material's for spells.

Kornaki
2009-06-01, 01:00 AM
Not quite. They still have worth because people place worth upon them. If he gives them away for free, then they would become worthless.

I have trouble with this interpretation for the following reason. Suppose your party levels up from 1 to 20. Your character has a VoP and has owned only three sets of clothing his whole life. Hold on, now he's a rock star super celebrity for saving the kingdom who knows how many times. There's probably inherent value on anything he owns (collectibles). Is he supposed to run around naked?

I would just let the player own a spellbook.

MeeposFire
2009-06-01, 01:09 AM
This was a problem one of the characters had in my campaign with a wizard and a cleric (thankfully the Faiths of Eberron book had a feat that allowed the cleric to not need a divine focus). For the wizard I did a variant which made casting like a spirit shaman. the player thought it was fun and it got around the spellbook problem. It saved me a lot of time and it prevented me from forcing the player to take spell mastery all the time.

2009-06-01, 02:15 AM
There's a feat in the PHB that lets a wisard prepare a few spells without a spellbook. I also remember you can tattoo them on your body. I forget the book: I think it was Unearthed Arcana or Complete Arcane. However, you will need a mirror to check some locations on your body (back for example).

Just some advice: go sorcerer for this. Making a wizard with vow of poverty is a horrible idea.

Were you even paying attention to the flow of the thread????????

As for the level 1-20 thing making his clothing famous... I don't think you can really say that everything he owns becomes valuable. A DnD world does not necessarily have fanboys.

Kornaki
2009-06-01, 04:50 AM
Were you even paying attention to the flow of the thread????????

As for the level 1-20 thing making his clothing famous... I don't think you can really say that everything he owns becomes valuable. A DnD world does not necessarily have fanboys.

Right now your level 20 monk is running around naked, thinking 'in the DM's world, they must not have fanboys' :smalltongue: