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View Full Version : Am I reading this right? [3.5]



Zaq
2009-05-29, 08:16 PM
Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
(Bold added.)

The armor check penalty for a heavy steel shield is 2. Does this mean that there is no ACP for a heavy mithral shield? Following that, does this mean that a character who is not proficient with shields, has nothing better to do with their hands, and doesn't care about ASF (for example, a psion) suffers absolutely no penalty for wielding a heavy mithral shield? Sure, it's not free (1020 gp, it would seem), but it's still an easy way to add +2 AC to a character with almost no effort. Sure, +2 AC isn't the be-all and end-all, but it's not like this requires a lot of investment.

Is there something I'm not seeing here? I don't think this is overpowering or anything, but I don't recall ever seeing it recommended or pointed out, so it makes me wonder if there's some other major downside I'm missing.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 08:19 PM
Is there something I'm not seeing here? I don't think this is overpowering or anything, but I don't recall ever seeing it recommended or pointed out, so it makes me wonder if there's some other major downside I'm missing.

Most people I know of suggest psions get decked out in full plate and a heavy shield. Since they don't care about ACP(save-or-dies/straight up save-or-damage) and don't suffer ASF. There's no real reason not to be decked out in gear like that.

Berserk Monk
2009-05-29, 08:19 PM
(Bold added.)

The armor check penalty for a heavy steel shield is 2. Does this mean that there is no ACP for a heavy mithral shield? Following that, does this mean that a character who is not proficient with shields, has nothing better to do with their hands, and doesn't care about ASF (for example, a psion) suffers absolutely no penalty for wielding a heavy mithral shield? Sure, it's not free (1020 gp, it would seem), but it's still an easy way to add +2 AC to a character with almost no effort. Sure, +2 AC isn't the be-all and end-all, but it's not like this requires a lot of investment.

Is there something I'm not seeing here? I don't think this is overpowering or anything, but I don't recall ever seeing it recommended or pointed out, so it makes me wonder if there's some other major downside I'm missing.

Yeah. Armor check penalty is 0 for that.

sonofzeal
2009-05-29, 08:22 PM
Yes. WotC actually mentioned this as an encouraged trick in one of their web articles. Wizards with Mithral Small Shields, Rogues with Mithral Large Shields.

And then there's Psions with Tower Shields and Full Plate, because they don't have ASF and don't care about ACP.

d13
2009-05-29, 08:22 PM
Pretty much yes.

Hint: Use Darkwood. A Heavy Darkwood Shield has also 0 ACP, and it's cheaper xD

Draz74
2009-05-29, 08:22 PM
Most people I know of suggest psions get decked out in full plate and a heavy shield. Since they don't care about ACP(save-or-dies/straight up save-or-damage) and don't suffer ASF. There's no real reason not to be decked out in gear like that.

Actually, many psions skip the full plate, just because they spare a Power Known on Inertial Armor instead, which (at most levels) gives a higher armor bonus.

Then they get +1 Padded Armor with a crapload of special enhancements like Fortification.

Shields, though -- sure, why not? Go tower shield.

Zaq
2009-05-29, 08:22 PM
Thanks. It seemed pretty simple to me, but since I couldn't recall it ever actually being suggested, I had a moment of self-doubt.

Zeta Kai
2009-05-29, 08:26 PM
Yup, that's RAW for you. Most CharOp folks are more concerned about other aspects of the game's defensive systems than AC (& those that do focus on AC are working with much higher numbers). But it is a nice bonus; if you have to have a non-magical shield, you might as well go with the best.

Forbiddenwar
2009-05-29, 08:48 PM
Shields, though -- sure, why not? Go tower shield.

Tower sheilds, no matter the construction, have an additional -2 on attack rolls because of thier size.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-29, 08:55 PM
Tower sheilds, no matter the construction, have an additional -2 on attack rolls because of thier size.

Psions extra don't care.


Actually, many psions skip the full plate, just because they spare a Power Known on Inertial Armor instead, which (at most levels) gives a higher armor bonus.

Nah. It's cheaper in PP to just to nick +1 [Stuff] full plate of [junk] and pick up a Magic Vestment from the party cleric. Same end result(+13 vs +13) for less PP.

hewhosaysfish
2009-05-30, 05:32 AM
Psions extra don't care.

They care if they're shooting rays or making touch attacks.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-30, 05:36 AM
They care if they're shooting rays or making touch attacks.

Same with nonproficient armor use; that ACP applies to attacks too if they lack proficiency.

So if you build your psion to never, ever use attack rolls...

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-30, 07:37 PM
For a character who wants to avoid having any armor check penalty, armor by increasing price goes

leather -> masterwork studded leather -> mithril chain shirt

materwork light shield or buckler -> heavy mithril shield.

Note that a mithril buckler or light shield also has no chance of arcane spell failure.

The barding equivalent of a mithril chain shirt not only won't slow your mount but requires no armor proficiency feat.

tiercel
2009-05-31, 07:44 AM
Just to add insult to injury, the frickin twilight enhancement (+1 equiv, -10% ASF) got reprinted from BoED into PHB2 (ostensibly to help duskblades, which is a load of bull).

With a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt, *every* arcane caster is an armored caster. Whoopee. Add a mithral no-training-needed-to-use shield to taste. (Why even bother with bracers of armor?)

Devils_Advocate
2009-05-31, 12:22 PM
(Why even bother with bracers of armor?)
So you can still wear a magic robe.

Gorbash
2009-05-31, 01:13 PM
Just to add insult to injury, the frickin twilight enhancement (+1 equiv, -10% ASF) got reprinted from BoED into PHB2 (ostensibly to help duskblades, which is a load of bull).

With a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt, *every* arcane caster is an armored caster. Whoopee. Add a mithral no-training-needed-to-use shield to taste. (Why even bother with bracers of armor?)

Or you know, cast (Greater) Mage Armor.

tiercel
2009-06-01, 05:23 PM
So you can still wear a magic robe.

Well.. there is that, assuming you find a robe worth wearing for its cost; in my experience, I haven't really seen actual magic robes worn that much in campaigns, even at high levels.


Or you know, cast (Greater) Mage Armor.

A +1 twilight mithral chain shirt costs 5100gp. That's well worth saving a 3rd level slot every day (or spell known, if you are a sorcerer) for nearly the same AC, and definitely better than bracers of armor unless money is no object and you have a magical robe you must wear.

It is not unreasonable to think about good old 1st level mage armor, though once you get to a level where mage armor is reasonably lasting pretty much all adventuring day by itself, the 5100gp isn't an unduly major investment -- and the mithral shirt of cheese is "always on", can't be brought down by a (greater) dispel magic targeted on the caster (a common enough happening in caster-vs-caster battles), and can be further upgraded as more money becomes available -- either with higher AC, or with additional special properties while still serving as a platform to receive magic vestment. (And it saves you a 1st level casting, which isn't much but isn't nothing when added to the other factors -- or it saves you a 1st level spell known for a sorcerer, which is worth more.)

Even if you manage to find a reason not to be wearing the mithral cheese shirt for the time being, the mithral shield will probably happen first/anyway.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-01, 05:41 PM
True, but a Psion can buy 1 +1 arrow of manifesting. Each arrow cost 280 gp and has 5 pp to use for a single power each.

Really, no reason not to buy a few for free-ish manifesting. Drawing ammunition is a free action and all.

So that makes Inertial Armor relatively free to manifest.

tiercel
2009-06-01, 06:31 PM
True, but a Psion can buy 1 +1 arrow of manifesting. Each arrow cost 280 gp and has 5 pp to use for a single power each.

Really, no reason not to buy a few for free-ish manifesting. Drawing ammunition is a free action and all.

So that makes Inertial Armor relatively free to manifest.

Fair enough -- my campaigns have been relatively psi-free, and I was thinking more of arcane casters. Still, most of my previous points still stand: targeted dispels, chain shirt is "always on", upgradability/customizability (though inertial armor can be "upgraded" with more pp use, unlike mage armor).


Plus, if you use 20 such arrows over your character's adventuring career for inertial armor you are better off, economically, in just breaking down and getting the accursed actual armor.

The argument is a little weaker for psions than arcane casters, but I was mostly arguing about the latter anyhow.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-01, 10:12 PM
True, but a Psion can buy 1 +1 arrow of manifesting. Each arrow cost 280 gp and has 5 pp to use for a single power each.
Really? Where are those found?