The Necromancer in Dol Guldur

[llamamushroom]

I'm re-reading The Fellowship of the Ring (and enjoying it, this time), and Sauron as the Necromancer just came up. So, my question is, why would've he been called that? The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/n/necromancer.html) only said that it was a name given to Sauron, and I trust it.

What do you, as members of the Playground, think Sauron was up to in Dol Guldur to earn such a nefarious title?

[Finn Solomon]

He was taking the brains out of zombies and putting them into the heads of other zombies to create a race of super zombies.

[Raz_Fox]

This is just pulled out of my encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien and his sources, just to let you know. No checking books or anything like that.


"Necromancer" was one of Odin's titles in Norse Mythology, symbolizing his magical power - and not over the dead, that's just a flanderization that's taken place over time in the fantasy genre. Tolkien took that and used it as a name for Sauron - it just means that Sauron is really good at magic. Really good.

[Keris]

"Necromancer" was one of Odin's titles in Norse Mythology, symbolizing his magical power - and not over the dead, that's just a flanderization that's taken place over time in the fantasy genre.

"Necromancy" comes from the Greek words nekros (meaning "dead") and manteia (meaning divination). It hasn't been flanderised to mean power over the dead, that's what it is (although it's not "Zombies!", but summoning spirits to answer questions).

Odin has been known to summon the spirits of the dead and question him, hence he is a necromancer. Not because he's very powerful. It might well take a lot of power to summon a spirit of the dead, but that's not the point here.

[V'icternus]

Well, he does have an affinity for Wraiths. Ring or otherwise.

Also, at that time, he had just come back from being dead. Or dead-ish, anyway.

And he probably spread the name himself. You know, cause a little fear in his enemies...

[Narmoth]

I think he used the title necromancer to emphasize that it was an EVIL magician, as opposed to Gandalf who were a good magician, a wizard

[Athaniar]

Somewhat related, this (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1080027&rootCatGameStyle=) is how Games Workshop imagines Sauron the Necromancer to look like. Not sure why it would matter, just thought I'd bring it up.

[SmartAlec]

The funny thing is, as soon as The Necromancer's discovered in Dol Guldur, he makes a run for it, makes for Barad-Dur and openly declares himself to be Sauron, the Enemy. Sort of a "Ok, you figured me out, well done. I'm still going to conquer the world, but now I'll have to be really obvious about it". One assumes that under the guise of the Necromancer, Sauron was doing everything that Sauron does, only a little more quietly.

[Narmoth]

Actually, in LoTR, it's stated that they found out to late that the necromancer was in fact Sauron, so he had time to gather power enough to defeat the Gondorian guardposts in Mordor and take up residence there again

[_Zoot_]

He was called the Necromancer because he was, at that time, using more wraiths (so ones other than the nine) and because he was also meant to be using other evil spirits (some what like the barro-wights (i think)) to patrol Mirkwood.

[Turcano]

What do you, as members of the Playground, think Sauron was up to in Dol Guldur to earn such a nefarious title?

The thing is that The Hobbit was never supposed to be in the same continuity as what would become The Silmarillion; since The Lord of the Rings was both a sequel to The Hobbit and shared the same continuity as The Silmarillion, quite a lot of retconning was necessary (including rewriting "Riddles in the Dark"). So in short, the Necromancer and Sauron were originally completely separate characters, and to say otherwise would be pulling a George Lucas.

[tribble]

i was thinking it had something to do with actual necromancy, divinations of some sort that invole dead dudes, like palantirs but with skulls.

[Shadowdweller]

The thing is that The Hobbit was never supposed to be in the same continuity as what would become The Silmarillion; since The Lord of the Rings was both a sequel to The Hobbit and shared the same continuity as The Silmarillion, quite a lot of retconning was necessary (including rewriting "Riddles in the Dark"). So in short, the Necromancer and Sauron were originally completely separate characters, and to say otherwise would be pulling a George Lucas.
Don't buy it. Tolkien makes cataclysmic references to the Necromancer's power/ability at the end of the Hobbit.


"Ere long now," Gandalf was saying, "The forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!"

"It would be well indeed," said Elrond; "but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after."
I think Tolkien had a very good sense of the ultimate mythos when writing the Hobbit.

[Finn Solomon]

Didn't he rewrite the Hobbit? This might be one of the things that he changed. Not that I'm fussed, this retcon was quite good.

[snoopy13a]

Didn't he rewrite the Hobbit? This might be one of the things that he changed. Not that I'm fussed, this retcon was quite good.

I believe the only thing that was changed was how Bilbo obtained the ring. In the original edition, Gollum gives it to Bilbo which wouldn't fit with The One Ring. The explanation of the ret-con is that Bilbo initially lied about how he got the ring to the dwarves and Gandalf.

[Muz]

He was taking the brains out of zombies and putting them into the heads of other zombies to create a race of super zombies.

And that old lady told them it would happen!

[The_JJ]

Yes, the Hobbit was written only as a potential prequel to the LOTR. Retconning was done, including making Sauron out of the ill-defined, far off evil wizard that, in the Hobbit, served to keep Gandalf from wrecking the drama with his mad skillz.

Either Tolkien never expected to bring the two together or just decided he didn't like the whole 'back from the dead' angle, kept the wraiths and then moved on.

You'll note that a lot of things from the Hobbit, like Dale, Mirkwood, that awesome bear dude, etc. etc. don't make it into the LOTR. It's a kinda obvious splice, but a neatly executed one.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yes, the Hobbit was written only as a potential prequel to the LOTR.

Tolkien made LotR up as he went along because his publisher wanted a sequel to the Hobbit, so I don't see how your wording makes any kind of sense. The Hobbit wasn't written as anything to do with LotR and may or may not have been originally intended to be set in the same world as the Silmarillion.


You'll note that a lot of things from the Hobbit, like Dale, Mirkwood, that awesome bear dude, etc. etc. don't make it into the LOTR. It's a kinda obvious splice, but a neatly executed one.

Legolas is from Mirkwood.

[hamishspence]

And the Beornings are that awesome bear dude's descendants :smallbiggrin:
(They are mentioned at the Council in Rivendell. So is the current ruler of Dale)

The expanded version of the Hobbit has some extra content from Unfinished Tales, where Gandalf explains to the Hobbits and Gimli, after the War, exactly what he was up to in recruiting Bilbo, and his worries about a team up between Smaug and Sauron.

[Narmoth]

Legolas is from Mirkwood.

And the dwarf in the counsil at Rivendel is one of the 12 dwarfs in The Hobbit.
The eagles reappear as well...

[hamishspence]

What is true is that the Middle Earth setting predates The Hobbit- Tolkien had been working on the Silmarillion for a very long time.

It is possible that only with LOTR did the Hobbit setting and the Silmarillion setting get merged.

[WalkingTarget]

Tolkien made LotR up as he went along because his publisher wanted a sequel to the Hobbit, so I don't see how your wording makes any kind of sense. The Hobbit wasn't written as anything to do with LotR and may or may not have been originally intended to be set in the same world as the Silmarillion.

Yeah, my understanding was that Tolkien was writing The Hobbit just as an adventure story for kids and reused some names from his older tales (Elrond Half-elven, Gondolin, etc) because they were handy and could be dropped in to add some depth to the setting. Later, as CS here says, his publishers wanted a sequel, and as he wrote it he decided to more fully integrate it with his mythology of Arda even though that meant a rather sharp change in tone and the need to retcon certain scenes in the published work.

[Turcano]

Don't buy it. Tolkien makes cataclysmic references to the Necromancer's power/ability at the end of the Hobbit.

Because that's so totally specific that it couldn't possibly apply to just any two-bit evil overlord lurking in the background. Honest. :smalltongue:

[Shadowdweller]

Because that's so totally specific that it couldn't possibly apply to just any two-bit evil overlord lurking in the background. Honest. :smalltongue:
Banished from the world? Not for many ages yet? No, those are NOT traits that could possibly apply to any two-bit evil overlord in Tolkien's work.

[Arang]

You'll note that a lot of things from the Hobbit, like Dale, Mirkwood, that awesome bear dude, etc. etc. don't make it into the LOTR. It's a kinda obvious splice, but a neatly executed one.

I think all these things made it in. They're all mentioned at the Council of Elrond, Bilbo says something about Dale and the War in the North is mentioned at least in the appendices.

Still, different tone, original work etc.

[Ridureyu]

A very important thing to remember is that there was a lot more content in Middle-Earth than what appears in the stories. if somethign didn't m ake a direct impact, it simply wasn't mentioned - this is why Hobbits are practically a non-issue int he Silmarillion. Or, more importantly, note the references to vampires and werewolves (Silmarillion), non-troll giants (Hobbit AND the Fellowship of the Ring), dwarves casting magic spells (Hobbit again), the implication that there are plenty of ghosts besides Barrow Wights and Army of the Dead, all of the people living in the frozen north, etc. etc. etc. etc. You could go on for a long time about this - it's just that if it didn't make a direct impact in a story, Tolkien didn't go into as much detail about it.

So yeah, for all we know Sauron made some zombies, but ditched the idea eventually. More than likely he was just calling up new wraiths and similar spirits.

[Ubiq]

Because that's so totally specific that it couldn't possibly apply to just any two-bit evil overlord lurking in the background. Honest. :smalltongue:

How about this then?

"He is an enemy far beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together."

I don't think that statement applies to just any two-bit evil overlord.

[GoC]

Banished from the world? Not for many ages yet?
He was more or less banished from the world in LotR so "Not for many ages yet" is actually evidence against.
I'd say the evidence is against him being more than just another overlord.


"He is an enemy far beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together."
Yep. That's your average overlord.

[Finn Solomon]

He was more or less banished from the world in LotR Yep. That's your average overlord.

Hey, no dwarf hating!

[GoC]

Hey, no dwarf hating!

Elves. They rock.

[chiasaur11]

Hey, no dwarf hating!

Yeah!

All dwarves put together would include Captain Carrot Ironfoundson, Cassununda, world's second greatest lover (but he tries harder), and some excellent weaponsmiths, after all. (Not to mention a ton of excellent booze)

Elves, however are worthless egotistical morons who can barely talk the talk let alone walk the walk, and attempt to compensate with arrogance. It takes them centuries to do what a human, dwarf, or kobold could do in a good weekend's adventuring.

Frankly, it's a wonder that it'll take the remaining decade or two left until they go extinct.

[Finn Solomon]

Elves. They rock.

Elves are tiny little children who wear red and green prisoner garb and work as indentured slaves to a fat old man in freezing, subzero temperatures 364 days of the year. Plus, their ranks include Will Ferrell.

http://lizarrasmith.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/elf7.jpg


Dwarves are hardcore. They fight. They build. They create. They engineer. They fix. They tunnel. They sing rousing drunken fight songs. They make beautiful things. They make awesome weapons. They drink copious amounts of beer, grow copious amounts of facial hair, and still can kick puny human arse seven days a week. They're like the Mythbuster Team crossed with Hell's Angels crossed with the Fighting Irish crossed with Groundskeeper Willie. Don't diss da dwarves.

http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1811&d=1232360960

[chiasaur11]

And in the accurate records rather than pro elf propaganda, Elves lost the orc killing contest.

Lost.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

Dwarves > Elves forever, especially in LOTR, where the elf sections were by far the most annoying parts of the book. At least the Silmarillion gave them a dark side.

Besides, dwarves are drunk, like me!

[Drakyn]

Besides, dwarves are drunk, like me!

This may in fact be the best reason to like dwarves ever said. When was the last time you had a story with a drunken elf?

Oh yeah, The Hobbit. Which brings us full circle in a manner best described as craaaazy! :smallbiggrin: