No matter O'Chuul's next move, V is done..

[daggaz]

I mean, what are the chances that he isn't paralyzed right now, and for how long?

Xykon touched him.

[Dagren]

I mean, what are the chances that he isn't paralyzed right now, and for how long?

Xykon touched him.True, but he may not have chosen to activate his touch attack. He touched her before too remember, and she wasn't paralysed then.

[Omegonthesane]

Xykon didn't explicitly say Paralysing Touch, like he did way back against O-Chul, so I'd rule that he's not using his supernatural Paralysing Touch ability in this scene. Therefore V isn't paralysed at all.

If X had used it, then V would have to make a saving throw of DC 10 + half Xykon's HD + Xykon's CHA modifier to not be paralysed FOREVER... or rather, paralysed until someone zaps him with Remove Paralysis or any curse-breaker spell.

[daggaz]

Huh I didnt realize it was an activated touch attack, thought it was automatic like a ghouls touch because..

in SoD when he first gains lichdom, Xykon is both surprised and amused when he touches Right-Eye and accidentally paralyses him.

I guess that was just the power of humor.. and if it really was supposed to be automatic, I suppose the power of plot says that is pretty annoying.

EDIT: thanks man, I found another thread and quoted a spoiler to figure it out, but its wierd they dont have a button in the top for it..

[Porthos]

Huh I didnt realize it was an activated touch attack, thought it was automatic like a ghouls touch because..

EDIT: because of what happens in SoD with right-eye. Dammit where is the spoiler tag button??

(NOTE: Added a spoiler box in your quote for ya)

Just type in this:

Stuff you want in the Spoiler Box

In the case you mentioned,

I just presumed that since he was new to the ability, he used it instinctually. Or, if you prefer, he didn't consciously suppress it. :smallsmile:

[Red XIV]

Remember what happened when Xykon used Paralyzing Touch on O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)? O-Chul was literally frozen in place, unable to make any movement at all. Hence MitD knowing him as "Mr. Stiffly". Not quite what's happening to V right now, is it?

Xykon apparently decided that paralyzing V would take all the joy out of strangling hir.

[MickJay]

Speculation:
if anyone's done for, it will be the brave paladin, my guess is he'll give V enough time to escape, but won't survive the fight (whether he manages to achieve something else is a different matter)

And please, please, please stop with the "hir" and similar monstrosities, they're grammatically incorrect and there's a perfectly good "he" which is used to denote people/objects of both male and undefined sex and/or gender.

[Theodoriph]

Remember what happened when Xykon used Paralyzing Touch on O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)? O-Chul was literally frozen in place, unable to make any movement at all. Hence MitD knowing him as "Mr. Stiffly". Not quite what's happening to V right now, is it?

Xykon apparently decided that paralyzing V would take all the joy out of strangling hir.


You can't strangle someone while they're paralyzed. At least you shouldn't be able to...breathing requires movement. Thus paralyzed people apparently don't need to breathe.

[Omegonthesane]

You can't strangle someone while they're paralyzed. At least you shouldn't be able to...breathing requires movement. Thus paralyzed people apparently don't need to breathe.

This is the universe where drowning people will return them to mere unconsciousness from near death. I think forgetting that you can't seem to be dead for long and not die of asphyxiation is OK.

That, or the lich's touch prevents your lungs from moving enough to make you not look dead at a glance. I dunno.

[Military Man]

Nice comic, time for some tag team action. :smallcool:



This is the universe where drowning people will return them to mere unconsciousness from near death. I think forgetting that you can't seem to be dead for long and not die of asphyxiation is OK.

That, or the lich's touch prevents your lungs from moving enough to make you not look dead at a glance. I dunno.


Most probably, it is D&D not real life, In D&D the laws of the universe are changed, thus magic works.

[kalkyrie]

Speculation:
And please, please, please stop with the "hir" and similar monstrosities, they're grammatically incorrect and there's a perfectly good "he" which is used to denote people/objects of both male and undefined sex and/or gender.

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that the English language is as pure as a crib-house whore. It not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary. “
- James Nicoll


The victims here are languages like Irish, Finnish and more amusingly, 14th century English itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

[Haven]

I just noticed that "skrrlch" in the second-to-last panel. That might mean that V's already dead, maybe with a chance for some famous last words or something (like Right-Eye's death).

[Roderick_BR]

Speculation:
if anyone's done for, it will be the brave paladin, my guess is he'll give V enough time to escape, but won't survive the fight (whether he manages to achieve something else is a different matter)


That wouldn't make much sense, as V was already trying to figure out a way to climb down the hole he made when coming in, and O-Chul was "only" going to be "seriously" tortured.
Unless you mean that O-Chul holding Xykon back will give V a chance to blow of his cover and run through that door (that Xykon probably had an eye on all the time when looking for V).

[CaptainIreland]

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that the English language is as pure as a crib-house whore. It not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary. “
- James Nicoll


The victims here are languages like Irish, Finnish and more amusingly, 14th century English itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

As that article says, "hir" and "ze" are invented pronouns that their uses hope will become standard.

I sincerely hope they never do, as they sound absurd and add nothing useful to this modern language.

"Like most efforts at language reform, these well-intended suggestions have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public, and the project to supplement the English pronoun system has proved to be an ongoing exercise in futility. Pronouns are one of the most basic components of a language, and most speakers appear to have little interest in adopting invented ones. This may be because in most situations people can get by using the plural pronoun they or using other constructions that combine existing pronouns, such as he/she or 'he or she'."
- "5.4, Gender: Sexist Language and Assumptions — epicene pronouns". The American Heritage Book of English Usage.

Based on the title of the article that quote it from, I'm very against the use of "hir" and "ze." Forcibly inserting sexism into every facet of life is really annoying and completely misleading.

All done.

V is probably going to get out of this alive, although I have no idea how.

[TheSummoner]

Please, please, please, don't let this become another topic about idiotic baby speak words.

More on topic, I think its completly possible Xykon would kill O'Chul depending on his next move... Xykon planned to keep him alive before, presumably because he still believes theres some benifit in doing so (even if only for entertainment value), but if O'Chul did something that made Xykon mad enough (such as destroy the soul hidey place), I see no reason why Xykon wouldn't inflict the horrors he planned for V onto O'Chul.

[Jaysyn]

I just noticed that "skrrlch" in the second-to-last panel. That might mean that V's already dead, maybe with a chance for some famous last words or something (like Right-Eye's death).

No, that's just the sound people make when you choke them out. Right before unconciousness.

[Zanaril]

More on topic, I think its completly possible Xykon would kill O'Chul depending on his next move... Xykon planned to keep him alive before, presumably because he still believes theres some benifit in doing so (even if only for entertainment value), but if O'Chul did something that made Xykon mad enough (such as destroy the soul hidey place), I see no reason why Xykon wouldn't inflict the horrors he planned for V onto O'Chul.

Or vice versa if O-chul dies and V doesn't (such as if O-chul's attack makes Xykon stop strangling while V's only unconscious). I won't take long to work out who helped O-chul get back on his feet.

Honestly, If the MITD doesn't get involved in the next strip I don't see our favourite paladin living much longer.

[snoopy13a]

As that article says, "hir" and "ze" are invented pronouns that their uses hope will become standard.

I sincerely hope they never do, as they sound absurd and add nothing useful to this modern language.

"Like most efforts at language reform, these well-intended suggestions have been largely ignored by the general English-speaking public, and the project to supplement the English pronoun system has proved to be an ongoing exercise in futility. Pronouns are one of the most basic components of a language, and most speakers appear to have little interest in adopting invented ones. This may be because in most situations people can get by using the plural pronoun they or using other constructions that combine existing pronouns, such as he/she or 'he or she'."
- "5.4, Gender: Sexist Language and Assumptions — epicene pronouns". The American Heritage Book of English Usage.

Based on the title of the article that quote it from, I'm very against the use of "hir" and "ze." Forcibly inserting sexism into every facet of life is really annoying and completely misleading.

All done.

V is probably going to get out of this alive, although I have no idea how.

I love the anecotal bs presented in Wikipedia as significant evidence:

"The gender-neutral pronoun "co" is used in contemporary everyday language by the 100 people who live at Twin Oaks Community in Virginia, USA. It is used to mean "s/he" in the case in which the gender is not known or is irrelevant.[10]"

So, 100 people out of an English speaking population of around a billion use "co" as a pronoun and you find it significant?

Then you have:

"There are also reports of students in Baltimore consistently using "yo" as a gender-neutral pronoun.[11]"

Yeah, in that sense it is probably subbed for "you" which shockingly is a gender-neutral pronoun.

[MickJay]

@ Roderick BR your assumption as to what I meant is correct :smallsmile:

Sorry for starting the language debate, I should've known better... :smallsigh:

[Logalmier]

V can't breath right now, and she's low on hit points, so unless she gets soem help fast then he's definitely a goner.

Speculation:
I think it's possible that O-Chul somehow manages to distract Xykon, then uses his lay on hands ability to heal Vs windpipe. Not very probable, bu I'm throwing it out there anyways.

[Flickerdart]

Or he could pump his Lay on Hands into Xykon, quite likely making the animated skeleton into a regular one AKA dead. then chuck the phylactery into the Snarl and go for a bite to eat.

[Optimystik]

A) O-Chul isn't likely to kill Xykon. However badass, he's still a minor character. Xykon is in for a nasty surprise, however.

B) V's windpipe was crushed (hence the "sklrrch.") I don't think he's dead yet, but he's certainly dying (using the suffocation rules, perhaps.) If O-Chul blows his LoH on Xykon then V will be in serious trouble.

C) The phylactery is facing O-Chul and Xykon's back is turned.

D) What's in O-Chul's off-panel hand? Did he grab the bar again?

[Ganurath]

Methinks that O-Chul is likely to channel all but one point of his lay on hands down Xykon's throat, dealing enough damage to take his attention from V. He will then proceed to smack Xykon around using his own phylactery as a flail, which has so many wards on it it's the toughest thing in the room after O-Chul himself. Once Xykon is sufficiently driven back, O-Chul will use that last point of lay on hands to stabilize V.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

To get my obligatory gender-neutral pronoun rant out of the way: I despise it because it turns a simple, everyday linguistic shortcut into a confrontational political statement. This "hir" and "ze" stuff is making a mountain out of a dust mote. A molehill would be dignifying the importance of the issue too much. And there already is a gender-neutral pronoun if you really feel the need. That pronoun is "it."

Now to the good stuff:

It seems to me that the sound in the panel is V's windpipe being crushed. In game terms, this is probably going to negative hit points -- he is dying and will soon be dead.

That said, I haven't see O-Chul use his Lay on Hands yet. It seems like using them to heal the spell-caster would be a wise move for him -- having two to one odds is going to help in this situation, and with Xykon, you need any kind of edge you can get.

My guess is that V and O-Chul are going to destroy Xykon's physical body, but be unable to destroy the phylactery. They may then carry the phylactery off -- where that will go, I'm not sure, but it looks like the most logical course of events to me. And I'm probably wrong. :smallbiggrin:

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Lufia]

The most logical outcome I see is that, as the title of this thread says, V is a goner. He/she/it (:smalltongue:) used Invisibility as a last resort spell, and now even that is gone.

Frankly, I don't see anything short of a Deux Ex Machina getting V out of here. I don't know if that is sad or not. There was the opportunity for V realizing the error in his ways and acting on it for the rest of the adventure, but the "died doing the right thing" development could be nice as well.

I love to be proven wrong though.

[Imgran]

Ochul with a flanking bonus on a damaged Xykon with Smite evil could potentially do some real damage.

Also then providing flanking for whatever V had left when X has to deal with the very real threat behind him.

I actually think V and Ochul are in a much better position than they look.

[Renegade Paladin]

We don't know that O-Chul even has lay on hands. Charisma is his dump stat, remember? If it isn't at least 12, he doesn't get any healing.

[Dagren]

Ochul with a flanking bonus on a damaged Xykon with Smite evil could potentially do some real damage.

Also then providing flanking for whatever V had left when X has to deal with the very real threat behind him.

I actually think V and Ochul are in a much better position than they look.You think V is in any position to provide a flanking bonus? I didn't think you could do that unless you threatened someone, even when not likely at negative hp?

[Borris]

I very much doubt O-Chul will be able to use his Lay on Hands ability for anything. As per the rules: "Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch." O-Chul already confirmed that he started out as a fighter and had made Charisma his dump stat. Dump stats are usually left around 8. I'd find it extremely unlikely that O-Chul would have somehow raised it to 12 or more without the use of any magic items.

[Justinian]

Pretty much the two relevant rules-y aspects at play here are:

a) Lay on Hands. However much of it O-Chul has, now would be the time to use it, whether aggressively, or to heal V.

b) GRAPPLE. Xykon may be a lot of things, and he may be super powerful, but in my experience in 3.5 low level epic play, even a demilich can go down like a punk if you can get ahold of him and do not let go. Liches are strong, granted, but that low BAB means O-Chul could quite possibly win grapple checks quite consistantly and keep him.

As for Paralyzing Touch, I'm a little rusty on 3.5 here, but IRRC it does have a fort save, and it is a standard action. He's actually grappling V right now, and he would have just started that grapple this round, meaning he couldn't have paralyzed anyone this round. And I don't think you even need to do anything special to join a grapple already in progress. Both Paralyzing Touch and Lay on Hands can be applied as touch attacks, so both are fair game while grappling.

[NamonakiRei]

Maybe O-Chul will Smite Evil Xykon. (Or maybe use smite Evil on the Phylactery?) :smallconfused:

That's what I think, that O-Chul will Smite Evil Xykon, thus distracting him from V, and giving him/her a chance to escape. I hope...

[ABB]

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that the English language is as pure as a crib-house whore. It not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary. “
- James Nicoll


The victims here are languages like Irish, Finnish and more amusingly, 14th century English itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun

Oh, just refer to V as "It" already. Hell, Xyon does.

[Cracklord]

We don't know that O-Chul even has lay on hands. Charisma is his dump stat, remember? If it isn't at least 12, he doesn't get any healing.

He made four attacks in one round. He's high level, don't worry about that.
However, he is on very low Hp. Could go either way.

[Lufia]

b) GRAPPLE. Xykon may be a lot of things, and he may be super powerful, but in my experience in 3.5 low level epic play, even a demilich can go down like a punk if you can get ahold of him and do not let go. Liches are strong, granted, but that low BAB means O-Chul could quite possibly win grapple checks quite consistantly and keep him.
Sorry, can someone explain what grappling does that would make it important? Like "V and O-Chul could get out of this" important, apparently.

[Justinian]

Sorry, can someone explain what grappling does that would make it important? Like "V and O-Chul could get out of this" important, apparently.

Well, I didn't say it'd help O-Chul get out of this.

But if you grapple Xykon - or especially if you pin him - that's going to seriously limit his options. Unless the henchmen come back to help Xykon, O-Chul could potentially tangle him up long enough for V to escape. I don't think O-Chul could deal enough unarmed damage to take Xykon out, though. A monk of O-Chul's level, maybe (especially when you consider the damage the sorcerer's already taken).

[Morgan Wick]

And please, please, please stop with the "hir" and similar monstrosities, they're grammatically incorrect and there's a perfectly good "he" which is used to denote people/objects of both male and undefined sex and/or gender.

For our parents, maybe. It doesn't sit well with our more enlightened generation with its conception of gender roles. Languages change. Get over it.

(I don't like "hir" and the like either. For V I use male and female pronouns interchangably, sometimes within a couple words of each other. Other times I just use s/he or he/she or him/her or the like.)

[Tomada]

Well, I didn't say it'd help O-Chul get out of this.

But if you grapple Xykon - or especially if you pin him - that's going to seriously limit his options. Unless the henchmen come back to help Xykon, O-Chul could potentially tangle him up long enough for V to escape. I don't think O-Chul could deal enough unarmed damage to take Xykon out, though. A monk of O-Chul's level, maybe (especially when you consider the damage the sorcerer's already taken).

smite evil + full power attack. It's not like Xykon is flatfooted for being in a grapple or something.

[Lufia]

What I meant is, I'm not a player and can't divine why being grappled would prevent Xycon from just dishing out more killy-things spells. For me, "grappled" represents exactly what happened when V used that big pink magic hand to grab Xykon. Didn't really help.

And unless Redcloak is in line to become the main villain from now on, Xykon has a big-ass plot armour right now. If his body is destroyed, the good guys have easy access to his phylactery. Bye-bye lich.

[Dagren]

What I meant is, I'm not a player and can't divine why being grappled would prevent Xycon from just dishing out more killy-things spells. For me, "grappled" represents exactly what happened when V used that big pink magic hand to grab Xykon. Didn't really help.IIRC that's exactly what Crushing Hand does, it grapples. Xykon is able to still his spells while grappled though, so yes it wouldn't work that great. (While he still has spells that is, but waiting for an epic sorcerer to run out of slots is a rather bad idea. O-Chul has a lot more hit points than the hand, so if he was at full he could suck up a meteor swarm, but as-is I doubt he's been healed by enough)

[Justinian]

Good catch. Yeah, he used Still Spell to cast Meteor Swarm - that spell has a somatic component, i.e. you have to be able to move to cast it, unless you use the metamagic feat "Still Spell." For a Sorcerer like Xykon, using Still Spell bumps the casting up a slot level and makes it take longer.

So Still Meteor Swarm is going to require a 10th level spell slot, something a non-epic character doesn't even get, and while we don't know what exact level Xykon is, we do know he's been burning through those 9th and 10th slots quite rapidly.

Granted, since he does have still spell (and why wouldn't he), he could bump up almost any of his lower level spells up one and still have access. So it may not work as well as all that, and I'm obviously applying anecdotal evidence from my own time as a player controlling a paladin fighting a lich.

If Xykon were a Wizard, and not a Sorcerer, this would be a bigger deal, because you have to prepare those spells as Still Spells in advance. Still, it seems like one of the better options amongst a lot of very bad ones. Unless he's got some kind of "outside the box" play in mind.

[TheSummoner]

For our parents, maybe. It doesn't sit well with our more enlightened generation with its conception of gender roles. Languages change. Get over it.

(I don't like "hir" and the like either. For V I use male and female pronouns interchangably, sometimes within a couple words of each other. Other times I just use s/he or he/she or him/her or the like.)

"Enlightened" as in what you believe when debating someone with an opposing viewpoint?

V has a gender, we may not know what it is, he has one (He because thats my interpretation). V is either male or female, not a "hir" not a "xe" not a "priylox" not any other moronic word people want to use to try to push political correctness. A rose by any other name is still a rose, and anyone who calls it a potato is a fool, even if they concede that it still smells quite sweet.

More to the point though... I don't think its likely for both V and O'Chul to survive this... and the fact that V is a main character and O'Chul is secondary tells me that O'Chul is going to die in a blaze of glory.

I'm not familiar with DnD rules... IF O'Chul manages to destroy the phylactery, is it gone for good, or could Xykon make a new one somehow?

[Justinian]

I'm not familiar with DnD rules... IF O'Chul manages to destroy the phylactery, is it gone for good, or could Xykon make a new one somehow?

If you destroy a lich's phylactery, that's it. End of the line. They cheat death by binding their soul to that thing. That thing will also regenerate their body over and over and over again.

It's not typically much of an Achilles heel for the DM since he can always go to great lengths to hide the darn thing. Though it seems logical for many liches to keep it close by so you can defend it - someone powerful enough to prove a threat could quite possibly divine its location.

[Zorack]

If you destroy a lich's phylactery, that's it. End of the line. They cheat death by binding their soul to that thing. That thing will also regenerate their body over and over and over again.

It's not typically much of an Achilles heel for the DM since he can always go to great lengths to hide the darn thing. Though it seems logical for many liches to keep it close by so you can defend it - someone powerful enough to prove a threat could quite possibly divine its location.

I don't think O'Chull can destroy it :smalltongue:

[Gredival]

For our parents, maybe. It doesn't sit well with our more enlightened generation with its conception of gender roles. Languages change. Get over it.

(I don't like "hir" and the like either. For V I use male and female pronouns interchangably, sometimes within a couple words of each other. Other times I just use s/he or he/she or him/her or the like.)

Even if you believe in gender fluidity/the performance of gender it doesn't imply the need to create new linguistic terms -- since he and she are primarily terms to refer to biological sex you can still use those terms to correctly describe someone even if their sex doesn't correlate with their gender. Hermaphrodites or transsexuals may usually referred to as the sex they wish to present themselves as, but that does not mean it is strictly incorrect to refer to such a person as an "it" or by their actual genetic sex.

[Olo Demonsbane]

No, that's just the sound people make when you choke them out. Right before unconciousness.

And you know this how...:smalleek:

[TheSummoner]

Certainly not from personal experience...

However, hes right. *innocent whistle*

[CaptainIreland]

I love the anecotal bs presented in Wikipedia as significant evidence:

Hey, I didn't post the article (except a single citation, which was properly and academically cited).

Quote the guy who did in the future please. Thanks!

[doodthedud]

Even if you believe in gender fluidity/the performance of gender it doesn't imply the need to create new linguistic terms -- since he and she are primarily terms to refer to biological sex you can still use those terms to correctly describe someone even if their sex doesn't correlate with their gender. Hermaphrodites or transsexuals may usually referred to as the sex they wish to present themselves as, but that does not mean it is strictly incorrect to refer to such a person as an "it" or by their actual genetic sex.

Why is this argument even being continued?
We got it already.

Political correctness = Whiny easily-offended emos who want to demand jobs or schools they don't deserve from the government using their race or gender as an excuse.

Does bias exist? Yes.
Will people deny jobs due to discrimination? Yes.
Will people deny schools due to discrimination? Yes.

It happens. We're human. We make mistakes. We can be a-holes. Fix it WITHOUT cutting out the people who still deserve these things who are also in the majority.

Depriving a white man a chance at a school/job to leave a 'seat' for a black man is as much racism as depriving a black man of that school/job because they're black. Same goes for genders. It's still sexism whether it's a man or a woman being oppressed.

We came here for story information, not to rant about social issues.

[Gametime]

Why is this argument even being continued?
We came here for story information, not to rant about social issues.

And yet, ironically, ranting about social issues is exactly what you chose to do with your post. Social issues that weren't even being discussed, in fact.

V is unlikely to die, simply because he would be immensely problematic to resurrect. The PCs aren't protected from death, in general, but death in the villain's stronghold would present a barrier to his return until Durkon got True Resurrection (which, if I recall correctly, is a 9th level spell and thus not available until level 17 - likely still a bit ahead).

Moreover, comics about V wandering around the elven afterlife would probably not be thrilling. Given that this would likely result in a long hiatus for the elf, I think it's safe to say V will leave this encounter with his body mostly intact and his pride, as O-Chul would say, at -9 and bleeding.

As for O-Chul? Well, I'm certain he's done for, but I thought the same thing as least twice before, so...who knows?

[doodthedud]

And yet, ironically, ranting about social issues is exactly what you chose to do with your post. Social issues that weren't even being discussed, in fact.

V is unlikely to die, simply because he would be immensely problematic to resurrect. The PCs aren't protected from death, in general, but death in the villain's stronghold would present a barrier to his return until Durkon got True Resurrection (which, if I recall correctly, is a 9th level spell and thus not available until level 17 - likely still a bit ahead).

Moreover, comics about V wandering around the elven afterlife would probably not be thrilling. Given that this would likely result in a long hiatus for the elf, I think it's safe to say V will leave this encounter with his body mostly intact and his pride, as O-Chul would say, at -9 and bleeding.

As for O-Chul? Well, I'm certain he's done for, but I thought the same thing as least twice before, so...who knows?
Yes, sorry. And it very much WAS being discussed. As it was political correctness in the form of that stupid 'hir' word and related to sexism.

Anyways. While I do so much hope O'Chul will survive, I do not think it is likely. But I hope even more that V survives, because V has been my favorite character from the start, right up until O'Chul showed his raw, unbridled badassery.

And what's with all these people saying there were three potions? I only see two, no matter how hard I look, and they were only healing. I don't think it's likely O'Chul would be able to destroy the phylactery. In fact, I'd say it's impossible. But as for destroying Xykon's body.....very possible. Xykon is clearly very roughed up, and a smite evil with O'Chul's Righteous Rod of Smiting combined with the critical hits O'Chul ALWAYS rolls, could be enough to squish Xykon.

In that case, Redcloak and reinforcements would have to arrive very quickly to stop the heroes making off with that phylactery.

[Forealms]

I like somebody elses theory that
O-Chul will grapple Xykon and Xykon will instinctively paralyze so he is stuck, and V will cast fly and throw the phylactery into the rift before leaving.


True, but he may not have chosen to activate his touch attack. He touched her before too remember, and she wasn't paralysed then.

I'll be honest: What this made me think of belongs in the "Horrors" thread...

[Zanaril]

I'll be honest: What this made me think of belongs in the "Horrors" thread...

Spend too much time on that thread and everything seems that way. That and crack pairings thread.

[Renegade Paladin]

For our parents, maybe. It doesn't sit well with our more enlightened generation with its conception of gender roles. Languages change. Get over it.
"More enlightened?" The arrogance astounds.

The proper gender-neutral pronoun in the English language for a person of undetermined gender (as opposed to a genderless object) is he. That you find calling Vaarsuvius "he" (or "she," for that matter) unenlightened betrays ignorance of the language, not chauvinism on the part of the one you criticize or a superior position for yourself.

And saying that languages change and to get over it betrays ignorance of etymology. :smallamused: Yes, languages change. No, they don't change because someone arbitrarily and consciously decides to change them; such attempts have, to my knowledge, invariably failed to date, for much the same reason that artificial languages don't gain wide usage. Changes in language come about as part of a natural evolution by the whole body of its speakers, not because a minority group within that body decided to impose changes.

[doodthedud]

"More enlightened?" The arrogance astounds.

The proper gender-neutral pronoun in the English language for a person of undetermined gender (as opposed to a genderless object) is he. That you find calling Vaarsuvius "he" (or "she," for that matter) unenlightened betrays ignorance of the language, not chauvinism on the part of the one you criticize or a superior position for yourself.

And saying that languages change and to get over it betrays ignorance of etymology. :smallamused: Yes, languages change. No, they don't change because someone arbitrarily and consciously decides to change them; such attempts have, to my knowledge, invariably failed to date, for much the same reason that artificial languages don't gain wide usage. Changes in language come about as part of a natural evolution by the whole body of its speakers, not because a minority group within that body decided to impose changes.

*applauds*

Correct. Thank you.

[Worira]

He made four attacks in one round. He's high level, don't worry about that.
However, he is on very low Hp. Could go either way.

The problem isn't his level, it's his charisma. If it's not high enough to provide a bonus, he heals 0xlevel damage.

[Aris Katsaris]

The proper gender-neutral pronoun in the English language for a person of undetermined gender (as opposed to a genderless object) is he.

It's "they" actually.


:smallamused: Yes, languages change. No, they don't change because someone arbitrarily and consciously decides to change them;

Not counting the German spelling reform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996), the cleansing of Greek Dimotiki into Katharevousa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharevousa) or the Revival of the Hebrew language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language)?

[DeepShadow]

If I were O'Chul in this exact position, I'd grab the phylactery and get it outside ASAP...and throw it into the gate, where the Snarl could destroy those protection magics as easily as it did the entire Greek pantheon.

With any luck, he could chuck it straight out the nearest window in the same round as he takes it from Xykon.

The strongest protection Xykon has is his role in the plot.

[DeepShadow]

It's "they" actually.

Only for plurals. Singular still requires a gender.

[Callista]

"It" would be perfect... if it didn't exclusively refer to non-living objects. Referring to someone as a non-entity is insulting, no matter how unsure you are about their gender.

I don't think the problem has a solution. I just go with s/he or his/her or sometimes "they". Using a slash in the middle of a word isn't nearly as bad as using non-standard words that stick out like a sore thumb, implying that a person is an object, or infuriating the grammarian in me by using "they".

Intersexed people do need a third pronoun; and it would be nice to have a non-gendered personal pronoun to use when you're referring to a person who could be of either gender ("he" can be confusing simply because you might make it seem like you're only talking about males).

I've got a feeling it's going to take a while before any possible pronoun stops sounding horribly awkward, though. Which is a pity, because English is such a widely used language that you'd think we could pick up some of the handy neuter pronouns from the jillion other languages that have them.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Changes in language come about as part of a natural evolution by the whole body of its speakers, not because a minority group within that body decided to impose changes.

And this is distinct from a minority group and their arbitrary "proper" English grammar...how?

Back on topic, I'm pretty sure that Xykon won't paralyze V. Right now he's having too much fun, and when he needs to stop entertaining himself and seriously dispose of V, he'll be too occupied otherwise.

[Teddy]

My personal belief is:

V an O-Chul will destroy Xykon just to find out that they can't destroy the phylactery (It's possible that O-Chul dies in the battle, will prevent him from giving V the idea of throwing it into the rift). They (or only V) takes the phylactery and returns to the rest of the party.

Somewhere/when they loses the phylactery and soon team evil is back in the game. This makes the evil guys realise that staying in Azure City isn't safe enough or especially helpfull for their plans, so they set of to Girard's Gate, and so does the OotS.

The only way of destroying the phylactery:

Get the :mitd: to stomp on it. After all, Redcloak is anxious of him destroying it in #147 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html)

[raphfrk]

Somewhere/when they loses the phylactery and soon team evil is back in the game. This makes the evil guys realise that staying in Azure City isn't safe enough or especially helpfull for their plans, so they set of to Girard's Gate, and so does the OotS.



If they try and take the phylactery with them, after destroying Xykon's body, then they have the problem of dealing with him once he regenerates. He was talking to Redcloak while they fled from the first battle with the OOTS. You can imagine his sarcasm while they try and fail to override the protecting spells.

This gives them a small window of opportunity to actually destroy it once they have destroyed his skeleton.

[Kornaki]

Yes, you can imagine his sarcasm when Roy just smashes his half formed skull with his sword every day as he tries to regenerate :smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

And each and every time Xykon says something incredibly offensive without actually remembering Roy's name.

[wootage]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
"More enlightened?" The arrogance astounds.

The proper gender-neutral pronoun in the English language for a person of undetermined gender (as opposed to a genderless object) is he. That you find calling Vaarsuvius "he" (or "she," for that matter) unenlightened betrays ignorance of the language, not chauvinism on the part of the one you criticize or a superior position for yourself.

And saying that languages change and to get over it betrays ignorance of etymology. Yes, languages change. No, they don't change because someone arbitrarily and consciously decides to change them; such attempts have, to my knowledge, invariably failed to date, for much the same reason that artificial languages don't gain wide usage. Changes in language come about as part of a natural evolution by the whole body of its speakers, not because a minority group within that body decided to impose changes.



*applauds*

Correct. Thank you.

Says the guy with "Dude" as a root of his name. Dude.

Innovation always has, and always will, begin with 1 single person. Even if others have the same idea (a pet theory of mine in the making is how to recognize a good idea by how many other people have it) popularization is historically done through simple mimicry. Monkey see, monkey do. Or in this case, monkey hear, monkey repeat.

[Wise Fox]

Has anyone laid odds on characters not just dying, but coming back again? Roy, obviously, has been dead for quite some time now, so would a long journey through the afterlife with V seem repetitious? My guess is that, should our favorite gender-indifferent mage get the short end of the life stick, that V will either get brought back almost immediately, or will stay dead indefinitely due to some spell technicality (perhaps with the soul splice?). Anyone have strong feelings about that one way or the other?

[Callista]

And saying that languages change and to get over it betrays ignorance of etymology. Yes, languages change. No, they don't change because someone arbitrarily and consciously decides to change them; such attempts have, to my knowledge, invariably failed to date, for much the same reason that artificial languages don't gain wide usage.One word: Quiz.

[Wise Fox]

a) Lay on Hands. However much of it O-Chul has, now would be the time to use it, whether aggressively, or to heal V.


I totally forgot that healing spells do damage to undead (shows how often I play a cleric, huh?). That's a pretty sweet idea. Doesn't X have some kind of positive energy protection, though?

[Berserk Monk]

I think we should be more concerned about what O-Chul will do instead of what O'Chuul will do.

[daggaz]

What, I go to the girlfriend's farm for ONE weekend, and my only thread gets hijacked to hell and back?? Are you guys aware that there are only two, maybe three replies on this thread that are actually OT, and one of them is mine?

If nobody has anything useful to say about the fact that there is a glaring discrepancy between SoD and later comics as per Xykon's power of paralysation, then please take it somewhere else.

V gender/grammar debates, you will find your place well at the bottom of the forum. O'Chuul's studliness vs Xykon's epicness, there are at least a dozen or two threads spamming the top.

As to one of the only posters who was somewhat close to OT, I will just say that breathing and movement of limbs are run by two different parts of the central nervous system, and that although they use the same nerves to convey the signals, there are in fact a number of poisons that can paralyse you physically, but still allow you to breathe. In real life, believe it or not. Tho overdose on the "lighter" kinds will usually lead to asphyxiation as well.

[Simanos]

This is the universe where drowning people will return them to mere unconsciousness from near death. I think forgetting that you can't seem to be dead for long and not die of asphyxiation is OK.

That, or the lich's touch prevents your lungs from moving enough to make you not look dead at a glance. I dunno.
Wouldn't it also paralyse the heart? It's also a muscle you know.
The rules say it merely stops you from moving, so I guess you are fine otherwise.
They don't have to spell every little detail, that's why the DM is there.
I hate that drowning brings dying to unconsciousness mantra that is repeated often too. It's not true. The rules simply assume a healthy creature to begin with. That is normal. Otherwise you could claim that casting any spell that makes people unconscious (like sleep) or whatever can cure dying or dead people because it isn't specifically mentioned that it doesn't. Grow up people. It is always implied that the worse condition overrides (unless healing magic takes place).


Good catch. Yeah, he used Still Spell to cast Meteor Swarm - that spell has a somatic component, i.e. you have to be able to move to cast it, unless you use the metamagic feat "Still Spell." For a Sorcerer like Xykon, using Still Spell bumps the casting up a slot level and makes it take longer.

So Still Meteor Swarm is going to require a 10th level spell slot, something a non-epic character doesn't even get, and while we don't know what exact level Xykon is, we do know he's been burning through those 9th and 10th slots quite rapidly.

Granted, since he does have still spell (and why wouldn't he), he could bump up almost any of his lower level spells up one and still have access. So it may not work as well as all that, and I'm obviously applying anecdotal evidence from my own time as a player controlling a paladin fighting a lich.

If Xykon were a Wizard, and not a Sorcerer, this would be a bigger deal, because you have to prepare those spells as Still Spells in advance. Still, it seems like one of the better options amongst a lot of very bad ones. Unless he's got some kind of "outside the box" play in mind.

Except, as I learned very recently, when grappling you are allowed only a standard action and metamagic for Sorcerers requires a full round action so they get kinda screwed. Unless Xykon has a rod of metamagic (still spell) or he has some special metamagic feat that allows him to cut casting time, or Rich houseruled that rule out. All very possible.

[Rev. George]

And please, please, please stop with the "hir" and similar monstrosities, they're grammatically incorrect and there's a perfectly good "he" which is used to denote people/objects of both male and undefined sex and/or gender.

Which is technically correct. Each one of you should look it up in his English textbook. Classically the pronoun for an unknown gender in English is "HE/HIM/HIS"

But enter The double-whammy of the Muted Group theory and the Sapir-Worth hypothesis, which argue that the inherent gender bias of language causes non-dominant groups to be repressed and under-represented, and that, since we think in language, we are limited by its constructs. Thus there is a movement to change the language to remove said biases.

Academically Hir and such are often accepted in some disciplines, and people who's gender and Sex may not correlate traditionally will take offense at incorrect assignment of a gender based upon their sex.

Using "They" is problematic, because it is plural, while "it" implies, at the very least a lack of "person-hood" (Ex: "It" can refer to an animal, which has a gender, but is not a person)

In the words of Futurama: "Welcome to the world of tomorrow"

-+G

[Lufia]

Whoa, daggaz, no need to get your panties in a twist. People tend to digress when talking, get over it.


Except, as I learned very recently, when grappling you are allowed only a standard action and metamagic for Sorcerers requires a full round action so they get kinda screwed.
I find that... silly. :smalleek:
"Hey! I defeated the most powerful sorcerer of all time by... hugging him very tight! Ain't I awesome?"
Being grappled prevents you from getting a move action. Fine. That's reasonable. Using that as a way to prevent from casting spells? I don't know, it just seems like a case where litteral reading of the rules makes no sense.

As for Xykon's paralyzing touch? The only time (online comics only) we see him using it, he actually says "Paralyzing touch", so I'm guessing the default is set to "off".

[Teron]

Except, as I learned very recently, when grappling you are allowed only a standard action and metamagic for Sorcerers requires a full round action so they get kinda screwed. Unless Xykon has a rod of metamagic (still spell) or he has some special metamagic feat that allows him to cut casting time, or Rich houseruled that rule out. All very possible.
Technically, you're still allowed to take full round actions while grappling -- you can make a full attack, for instance -- but you specifically can't cast spells that take longer than a standard action. You're right about how that hurts spontaneous casters, though, which I'd somehow never noticed.

[Dagren]

As for Xykon's paralyzing touch? The only time (online comics only) we see him using it, he actually says "Paralyzing touch", so I'm guessing the default is set to "off".Except O-Chul was frozen for several panels before he said anything, so I'm inclined to believe he was just commenting on it rather than invoking it.

[DeepShadow]

If I were O'Chul in this exact position, I'd grab the phylactery and get it outside ASAP...and throw it into the gate, where the Snarl could destroy those protection magics as easily as it did the entire Greek pantheon.

Ha! Called it!

[mjo625]

Except, as I learned very recently, when grappling you are allowed only a standard action and metamagic for Sorcerers requires a full round action so they get kinda screwed. Unless Xykon has a rod of metamagic (still spell) or he has some special metamagic feat that allows him to cut casting time, or Rich houseruled that rule out. All very possible.

I know it's kind of moot now, but couldn't he quicken and still the same spell? He'd be using lvl 9 slots to cast lvl 4 spells, but a spell's a spell.

[PId6]

I know it's kind of moot now, but couldn't he quicken and still the same spell? He'd be using lvl 9 slots to cast lvl 4 spells, but a spell's a spell.
Sorcerers can't quicken.