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KatfishKaos
2009-05-30, 09:31 AM
I was curious, hypothetically could a Paladin become a lich? Or a Assassin, or anything really with a ... Well a caster level? I suppose I just answered my own question but i'd like the playgrounder's opinion on the matter.

BobVosh
2009-05-30, 09:35 AM
There is a good lich from...races of faerun. Archlich, I don't know the requirements but should be ok alignmentwise for a paladin.

Why would a pally WANT to be a lich? D10 -> D12 HD is hardly worth the con -. All the rest are ok abilities, but none really are that interesting to a pally. Helps with paladin's MAD I guess. +cha is always good.

Assassin: Sure, why not?

Casters: Yes. Tread carefully, losing spell levels suck. Espically 4, which is the magic number to prevent you from having 9th levels spells preepic. Dread Necromancer is my suggestion for decent casting + lichdom. None of this silly 4 LA.

Dry Liches are sok too.

KatfishKaos
2009-05-30, 09:38 AM
Thanks, it wasn't really for any actual interest in doing such things. I was just curious.

Cheers

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-30, 09:50 AM
I was curious, hypothetically could a Paladin become a lich? Or a Assassin, or anything really with a ... Well a caster level? I suppose I just answered my own question but i'd like the playgrounder's opinion on the matter.

Paladins do not gain sufficient casting to be able to meet the prerequisites for creating the phylactery, nor does an assassin.

And yea, +4 LA sucks for casters.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-30, 10:07 AM
Paladins do not gain sufficient casting to be able to meet the prerequisites for creating the phylactery, nor does an assassin.

And yea, +4 LA sucks for casters.

There is a feat. It is in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. It is called "Practised Spellcaster".

A Paladin of level 14 with Practised Spellcaster can become a lich.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-30, 06:29 PM
There is a feat. It is in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. It is called "Practised Spellcaster".

A Paladin of level 14 with Practised Spellcaster can become a lich.

A Paladin of level 14 with Practiced Spellcaster has the same caster level as a Paladin of level 14 without Practiced Spellcaster. It only increases CL to character level, and specifically does not allow you to earn any more spells.

Practiced Spellcaster does not, in any way, affect the fact that a) he cannot cast arcane spells, or b) cannot cast more than 4th level spells.

Gaiwecoor
2009-05-30, 06:38 PM
a) The paladin doesn't need to cast arcane spells. The lich only needs to be able to cast spells, whether arcane or divine.

b) There's likewise no requirement for level of spell that they can cast.

The practices spell caster trick works thusly: At Level 14, the paladin only has a caster level of 7 (half its level). Practiced Spellcaster then gives it a boost of +4, to 11 (still well under the 14 HD max allowed by the feat). Slap Craft Wondrous Item on that character, and it can become a lich.

KillianHawkeye
2009-05-30, 06:45 PM
But the real question is whether or not a paladin would retain his class features and spellcasting long enough to complete the "unspeakably evil" process?

Starbuck_II
2009-05-30, 06:46 PM
A Paladin of level 14 with Practiced Spellcaster has the same caster level as a Paladin of level 14 without Practiced Spellcaster. It only increases CL to character level, and specifically does not allow you to earn any more spells.

Practiced Spellcaster does not, in any way, affect the fact that a) he cannot cast arcane spells, or b) cannot cast more than 4th level spells.

No, Shneekey, you aren't doing your math right.
14/2=7.
7+4 = less than 14? Yes?
This becomes binary.

Caster less than 14= 11, right?

Practiced Spellcaster has no care if you are a full/1/2 caster: only that you have less than Character HD.


Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.


Now, do 7+4 = 11

Now, what spells are listed as required? None. Yep, Paladins can cast none too. Liches can be Divine.

Paladins need 2 feats to create them:
1) practiced spellcaster
2) Craft wonderous

Doing able by level 6, but he must wait till level 14 to qualify for the caster level of 11.

Now, the paladin has to get the exp/gold to qualify... that seems to be the hard point.

VonDragon
2009-05-30, 08:49 PM
or said paladin could go epic and become a lich at lv22

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-30, 08:54 PM
But the real question is whether or not a paladin would retain his class features and spellcasting long enough to complete the "unspeakably evil" process?

Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny.

An assassin gets more benefit from being a lich, since his Paralyzing Touch will allow him to just out-and-out murder anyone who fails that save. Downside is that his casting is INT based and gets less boosts from Lich than CHA-casters.

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-30, 09:07 PM
A Paladin of level 14 with Practiced Spellcaster has the same caster level as a Paladin of level 14 without Practiced Spellcaster. It only increases CL to character level, and specifically does not allow you to earn any more spells.

Practiced Spellcaster does not, in any way, affect the fact that a) he cannot cast arcane spells, or b) cannot cast more than 4th level spells.

A level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7.

Practised Spellcaster limits your caster level to your current Hit Dice and doesn't care from where the caster levels come from. Therefore, a Paladin of level 14 with Practised Spellcaster has a caster level of 11.

Becoming a lich requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat, a caster level of 11, 120,000 GP and 4,800 XP. It does not require any spells or for the caster to be arcane.

In fact the description of the lich specifically mentions clerics as a valid option for lichdom.

Did you actually read the information for becoming a lich, or did you just assume I was wrong because I was contradicting you?

Collin152
2009-05-30, 09:22 PM
A Paladin of level 14 with Practiced Spellcaster has the same caster level as a Paladin of level 14 without Practiced Spellcaster. It only increases CL to character level, and specifically does not allow you to earn any more spells.

Practiced Spellcaster does not, in any way, affect the fact that a) he cannot cast arcane spells, or b) cannot cast more than 4th level spells.

As others have detailed, I shall wrap up nicely:
LICHES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-05-30, 09:25 PM
A level 14 Paladin has a caster level of 7.

Practised Spellcaster limits your caster level to your current Hit Dice and doesn't care from where the caster levels come from. Therefore, a Paladin of level 14 with Practised Spellcaster has a caster level of 11.

Becoming a lich requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat, a caster level of 11, 120,000 GP and 4,800 XP. It does not require any spells or for the caster to be arcane.

In fact the description of the lich specifically mentions clerics as a valid option for lichdom.

Did you actually read the information for becoming a lich, or did you just assume I was wrong because I was contradicting you?

Actually, I read the information for becoming a lich from a different version, which required casting 6th level arcane spells.

Also, I never realized that Paladins have 1/2 caster level, which is a pretty retarded thing to do to their already gimped casting. Then again, I've never bothered trying to actually cast as a Paladin before. Either I didn't have access, or I traded out spells for bonus feats. Even without 1/2 CL, it's not worth bothering with.

Check your own assumptions. In fact, check your assumptions at the door.

AbyssKnight
2009-05-30, 11:05 PM
Check your own assumptions. In fact, check your assumptions at the door.

He should check the assumption that you are reading the rule book?

If you are playing with house rules, varient classes, or just plain ignore certain class abilities then YOU have an obligation to mention it in your post because there are too many options for US to consider them all.

RTGoodman
2009-05-30, 11:48 PM
The best lich, of course, is the Gnome Bard Lich. Just because. :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2009-05-31, 09:01 AM
Actually, I read the information for becoming a lich from a different version, which required casting 6th level arcane spells.

Also, I never realized that Paladins have 1/2 caster level, which is a pretty retarded thing to do to their already gimped casting. Then again, I've never bothered trying to actually cast as a Paladin before. Either I didn't have access, or I traded out spells for bonus feats. Even without 1/2 CL, it's not worth bothering with.

Check your own assumptions. In fact, check your assumptions at the door.

So it's wrong to assume that, in a conversation on a rules question, someone would bother actually reading the rules and not just defaulting to their own house rules and playstyle?

Wow. So you mean to say I shouldn't ever assume you bother to read anything from now on? Alright.

Maerok
2009-05-31, 10:14 AM
There's a good lich template variant in Libris Mortis. There is also something called a baelnorn, or whatever, which is supposed to be an elf lich...

Ghost does offer a few more things than Lich does. More Cha, which would be good for Smite and all that. I've been wanting to play a holy warrior for a while.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-31, 10:33 AM
Monsters of Faerūn has good liches (back in templates, under Lich, Good), which include the archlich (familiar from the AD&D 2nd edition revised MM) and the baelnorn.

An Assassin lich is a pretty cool idea. All the abilities a lich gains work great for an Assassin.