Xykon Hypocrisy 101 SoD Spoilers

[Alex Warlorn]

In Start Of Darkness, Xykon as a sorcerer is hit over the head repeatedly that he didn't EARN his power as a spell caster since it came to him biologically, which makes Wizards more often than not see him as inferior.

Xykon finally rejected this idea at the climax saying, "Keep your finely tuned wrist watch, I'll keep my sledge hammer."

I know Xykon was just trying to goad V, but I just had to point this out.

[Murdim]

In Start Of Darkness, Xykon as a sorcerer is hit over the head repeatedly that he didn't EARN his power as a spell caster since it came to him biologically, which makes Wizards more often than not see him as inferior.

Xykon finally rejected this idea at the climax saying, "Keep your finely tuned wrist watch, I'll keep my sledge hammer."

I know Xykon was just trying to goad V, but I just had to point this out.Why ? Xykon genuinely learnt how to manipulate arcane magic though his long life, and continues to do so in undeath. As a sorcerer rather than as a wizard, but still. While the access to the Sorcerer class is innate, these twenty-odd character levels didn't come effortlessly, you know.

EDIT : Corrected the wizard/mage bit, thanks to Kish

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with Murdim; being born with inate power and learning how to use it isn't the same as being given power which can easily be lost.

[Kish]

As a sorcerer rather than as a mage, but still.
Rather than as a mage? :smallconfused: You mean rather than as a wizard, right? Sorcerers are mages.

[Morty]

In Start Of Darkness, Xykon as a sorcerer is hit over the head repeatedly that he didn't EARN his power as a spell caster since it came to him biologically, which makes Wizards more often than not see him as inferior.

Xykon finally rejected this idea at the climax saying, "Keep your finely tuned wrist watch, I'll keep my sledge hammer."

I know Xykon was just trying to goad V, but I just had to point this out.

Right, except that he worked hard over the years to forge is talent into the great power he has now, rather than getting it instantly.

[Spiky]

In Start Of Darkness, Xykon as a sorcerer is hit over the head repeatedly that he didn't EARN his power as a spell caster since it came to him biologically, which makes Wizards more often than not see him as inferior.

Xykon finally rejected this idea at the climax saying, "Keep your finely tuned wrist watch, I'll keep my sledge hammer."

I know Xykon was just trying to goad V, but I just had to point this out.

How is that hypocritical? He's saying power wins. He also used non-magic power to kill Fyron and chatter (maybe straight up CHA?) to firmly entrench Redcloak to his side.

[Pokemaster]

Xykon earned his arcane power the same way O-Chul earned his hit points: Level Grinding. It's just that the Wizards had to do the level grinding and find the appropriate scrolls for their spells.

[NamonakiRei]

I had to pop up in here to say that, yeah, Xykon has earned his power. Since he turned into a Lich, he's worked toward the goal of... let's say being an Epic badass, catching a gate and using it to rule the world, and he's done that a couple times. Hell, he even stripped himself of his living flesh. It doesn't sound like "easy way" :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

In Start Of Darkness, Xykon as a sorcerer is hit over the head repeatedly that he didn't EARN his power as a spell caster since it came to him biologically, which makes Wizards more often than not see him as inferior.

Xykon finally rejected this idea at the climax saying, "Keep your finely tuned wrist watch, I'll keep my sledge hammer."

I know Xykon was just trying to goad V, but I just had to point this out.

He gained 20 to 25 or so levels. That's "earning real power for 20+ levels". Vaarsuvius gained some 14 levels and used some deal to get more spell-capacity.That's "earning real power for 14 levels + some crappy deal that's spells, but not real power".

So I do not see nothing hypocratic here...

Also note: Xykons speach should give the "Vaarsuvius did not gain ultimate arcane power because he did not gain ultimate power with it and lost"-fraction something to think about. Xykon is expressing right the things why Vaarsuvius "ultimate ARCANE POWER" does not equal the "necessary REAL POWER to defeat an epic sorcerer-lich".

[Nerdanel]

I think the TOTAL AND COMPLETE ULTIMATE arcane power shouldn't vanish with just a will save or have to be consciously held onto every round, presumably making things like trancing with it impossible.

Xykon's arcane power is really his. Its his by class feature and cannot be removed without extreme circumstances, such as successfully disjoining a major artifact, which incidentally requires a spell he doesn't have.

[Ancalagon]

I think the TOTAL AND COMPLETE ULTIMATE arcane power shouldn't vanish with just a will save or have to be consciously held onto every round

Write "ULTIMATE ARCANE" instead of "ULTIMATE arcane". Since that's what Vaarsuvius wanted and got. He "meant" ULITMATE arcane POWER and thought it was the same as ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER... but Xykon (and countless people on the board) just explained why that's wrong.

[Dausuul]

I agree that Xykon was not being hypocritical in this instance. That said, if Xykon were being hypocritical, it would hardly be a shock. He's the villain, remember?

[Nerdanel]

Write "ULTIMATE ARCANE" instead of "ULTIMATE arcane". Since that's what Vaarsuvius wanted and got. He "meant" ULITMATE arcane POWER and thought it was the same as ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER... but Xykon (and countless people on the board) just explained why that's wrong.

But it wasn't TOTAL AND COMPLETE (my main point) and it doesn't look very ULTIMATE either.

The power of the splice remained Haerta, Jephton, and Ganonron's and V got only a temporary access to it, much like Xykon had temporary access to the powers of Redcloak, Jirix, and Tsukiko by virtue of being their teammate. Sure Xykon's minions could try to rebel, but the souls in the splice weren't 100% reliable either. In both V's and Xykon's cases force of will was the main component in keeping the minions in check, subject to the usual surprises like major hitpoint damage from a rampaging paladin or an enemy with a heavy blunt object, the kind of thing that happens all the time while adventuring. If you want to count in that kind of things, you might want to count Xykon's wall traps too.

And as for ULTIMATE, V's splice powers were severely lacking in synergy, meaning that they weren't really as powerful as one might think simply by summing up the levels. V had a lot of spells, but he could only fire off two of them in the same round, or one if he was using Jephton's splice with metamagic. (And we don't even know if V was capable of switching between active splices no more than once per round, making it impossible for him to cast more than one spell per round period if he was using Jephton.) While a single epic wizard would had to have taken Epic Spellcasting only once to gain the full benefits, each member of the splice had had to take the feat individually, making the feat only 1/3 as effective as if they had been one person. Similarly, an epic wizard taking Improved Spell Capacity six times gets access to level 15 spells, while if the members of the splice had taken Improved Spell capacity two times each, they still could only cast level 11 spell at most, thus being vastly inferior in the metamagic they could apply to their high-level spells.

[Hurkyl]

And as for ULTIMATE, V's splice powers were severely lacking in synergy, meaning that they weren't really as powerful as one might think simply by summing up the levels.
So what? Haerta was one of the most powerful mortal arcane casters in the history of the multiverse. Therefore, Vaarsuvius + Haerta + Jepthon + Ganonron had even more arcane power than that, despite the way their powers combined.

Also, I remember many people were arguing that despite the way their powers combined, Vaarsuvius + Haerta + Jepthon + Ganonron would have greater arcane power than Haerta with 60 extra levels

[Nerdanel]

The thing is, if splices are counted in to V's arcane power, the possessor of the greatest ever arcane power is probably the leader, even if a noncaster, of an epic adventuring party with several sufficiently epic arcane casters in it.

Or someone like a fighter with really fancy epic magic gear (made by a wizard) and lots of it.

[Melchiades]

V had total and ultimate arcane power - but he used it as a blaster wizard, which turned out to be weak against a prepared, epic lich sorcerer. Even soloing the dragon as he did was pretty dumb: he had access to familicide, and probably some epic scrying spells as well. With those two available, he could have dealt with both Xykon and the Dragon without actually facing any of them in battle, and that's only one idea from the top of my head, with others bringing up epic teleport and massive summons.

Power is not a leather jacket.

[Berserk Monk]

a prepared, epic lich sorcerer.

A prepared sorcerer. There's an oxymoron.

[Kish]

A prepared sorcerer. There's an oxymoron.
I hope you're joking.

(Just in case you aren't: Neither WotC nor Batman invented the word "prepared" in its non-game-mechanical sense, and Xykon's fire-immunity item is a perfect example--far from the only perfect example recently--of a way for a sorcerer to...prepare.)

The thing is, if splices are counted in to V's arcane power, the possessor of the greatest ever arcane power is probably the leader, even if a noncaster, of an epic adventuring party with several sufficiently epic arcane casters in it.

Only if that leader has the ability to ensure that the spellcasters in his or her party do whatever s/he says, however much they disagree with it.

Then, when has there ever been such a party in the OotS universe?


Or someone like a fighter with really fancy epic magic gear (made by a wizard) and lots of it.
And which strip did that fighter appear in? If your argument hinges on, "I could imagine ways to have even more arcane power, so this doesn't count," you might as well skip straight to, "It's only complete and total ultimate arcane power if Vaarsuvius can cast any arcane spell ever published at will without limits."

[Nerdanel]

The leader of an adventuring party can keep his companions in check with diplomacy checks. V used concentration checks. The splices were chained only as far as V's willpower and concentration could hold them. It's not really that different.

As far as story examples of more arcane power, let's take a look at the Order of the Scribble. Dorukan used arcane magic and apparently Girard did too. The Order ended up epic. Now, if we put Girard + Dorukan against the spliced V a lot of things could happen, but I'd say the Order members have the advantage due to them having twice as many actions per round as V AS WELL AS spell slots of 9+ level. They might not have as many spells combined, but they should be more powerful.

And that's just the top of the iceberg. The OOTS multiverse (Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes) contains so many adventurers that taverns are full of them, and some of them are high level. For example, the evil party that attacked Celestia was high-level enough to cast Plane Shift.

[SinsI]

The leader of an adventuring party can keep his companions in check with diplomacy checks.
Only if those companions have revealed their true goals to that leader - players just love to play against their party members. If one of them is secretly an enemy agent no diplomacy is going to stop him from betraying.
Spliced souls have no free will and thus can be controlled far more reliably.

[Nerdanel]

On high enough levels diplomacy becomes a literally mind-affecting effect that can turn people into fanatic followers.

Anyway, just consider the case of an epic wizard with the Leadership and Epic Leadership feats whose cohort (also a wizard) is a few levels lower but still epic. Or better yet, make the boss a sorcerer for some more synergy.

[Kish]

As far as story examples of more arcane power, let's take a look at the Order of the Scribble. Dorukan used arcane magic and apparently Girard did too.

We don't know what class Girard was, beyond that he dual-wielded, was a tracker, and was supposed to be master of illusions. A bard? A bard/ranger dual-class? A sorcerer specializing in illusion spells? An illusionist? Some arcane power is extremely likely (though illusion-focused cleric of Loki or another trickster god is possible and would be amusing), but I'm inclined to think his role in the Order of the Scribble would have been described quite differently if he was a single-classed sorcerer or wizard competing with Dorukan for the role of party mage.

...Anyway, though, let's assume for the sake of argument that he was the most arcane of those possibilities, the sorcerer or the wizard. So what? There's no reason to think either Dorukan or Girard was higher-level than Jephton. Two arcane spellcasters higher level than Haerta having more raw power than the Vaarsuvius-gestalt? Maybe. Two arcane spellcasters of unspecified epic levels having more raw power than the Vaarsuvius-gestalt, bearing in mind that a younger, probably lower-level Xykon beat Dorukan into the ground? Not the way to bet.

Note: That's not at all the same as saying either of them would necessarily lose a duel to Vaarsuvius, any more than Xykon lost. Ultimate arcane power isn't an I Win button, and the failure to understand that was one of the things that doomed Vaarsuvius.


And that's just the top of the iceberg. The OOTS multiverse (Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes) contains so many adventurers that taverns are full of them, and some of them are high level. For example, the evil party that attacked Celestia was high-level enough to cast Plane Shift.
How did we get from, "I'm not even sure there ARE any 17th-level clerics in the world!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) to so many hypothetical epic-level arcane spellcasters that being soul-spliced with three of them, one of whom was powerful enough to create and cast a spell that kills everyone who shares genes with the target, couldn't possibly qualify as complete and total ultimate arcane power? Again, if your argument hinges on, "I could imagine ways to have even more arcane power, so this doesn't count," you might as well skip straight to, "It's only complete and total ultimate arcane power if Vaarsuvius can cast any arcane spell ever published at will without limits."

[Optimystik]

I hope you're joking.

(Just in case you aren't: Neither WotC nor Batman invented the word "prepared" in its non-game-mechanical sense, and Xykon's fire-immunity item is a perfect example--far from the only perfect example recently--of a way for a sorcerer to...prepare.)

Down, girl. It was a play on words: Wizards "prepare" spells and sorcerers don't.
Hence, sorcerers are never "prepared." :smalltongue:


But it wasn't TOTAL AND COMPLETE (my main point) and it doesn't look very ULTIMATE either.

Although, with posts like that to read I don't blame your sense of humor for taking a leave of absence...

[Nerdanel]

So let's have a Sorcerer 25, which is not unreasonable in the OOTS multiverse. He takes Leadership and Epic Leadership, and being as charismatic as he is he attracts a cohort who happens to be Wizard 23. Their combined arcane power and thus the amount of arcane power available to the leader is not really overshadowed by the spliced V's arcane power.

Power = Energy / Time.

The spliced V may have the combined arcane energy production potential of V and three epic casters, but he is still limited to one normal and one quickened spell per round. Apparently none of the splices had the Multispell epic feat that allows for an extra quickened spell for each time it's taken and can be taken on level 21.

As for the splices' fancy epic spells, characters like Xykon and Dorukan could also cast those. And even if Familicide was the greatest epic spell ever made, which is not really supported by anything, V's peak arcane power output still wouldn't exceed Haerta's.

[Optimystik]

Power = Energy / Time.

The spliced V may have the combined arcane energy production potential of V and three epic casters, but he is still limited to one normal and one quickened spell per round. Apparently none of the splices had the Multispell epic feat that allows for an extra quickened spell for each time it's taken and can be taken on level 21.

Xykon has the same limitation; V didn't need that particular feat to win. Had he kept up the sunbursts (and protected himself from Xykon's energy drains) he could have won easily. Empowered Sunburst does a heck of a lot of damage to undead. (Maximum of 225 (1.5*25d6) with an average of 113).

[Nerdanel]

Xykon has the same limitation; V didn't need that particular feat to win. Had he kept up the sunbursts (and protected himself from Xykon's energy drains) he could have won easily. Empowered Sunburst does a heck of a lot of damage to undead. (Maximum of 225 (1.5*25d6) with an average of 113).

Yes, but in a place as big as the multiverse chances are that several somebodies have that particular SRD feat, even more than once. Xykon is a sorcerer anyway and can't cast quickened spells without non-core feats. Because of this, the spliced V's maximum power output (as counted in spell levels/round) was indeed greater than Xykon's and equal to what Ganonron and Haerta had been capable of when they were alive. Jephton's arcane power output may have been lower than Xykon's though...