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View Full Version : [4E] Keep on the Shadowfell DMing Advice



RTGoodman
2009-05-30, 03:07 PM
So, I finally managed to get a group together to play D&D (yeah, it's been more than a year since the adventure came out, but whatever), and we've played through a little bit of the thing so far.

The problem came at the end of last night's session. They made it to Winterhaven, talked to the folks in the bar (the owner, the old man, and Valthrun), and then Ninnaren (the secretly-evil double agent Elf Ranger) came in. First of all, the PCs fell for her, for some reason, even though she was a total bitch to them the whole time. I handled that alright, and she got disgusted and left them. (It doesn't help that, despite their generally good Charisma, the Deva Infernal Warlock, Dragonborn Paladin, and Half-Orc Fighter all kinda hit on her several times, I guess assuming she was their friendly neighborhood quest-giver NPC.)

The next day, they got up early to try to head her off AGAIN to talk to her, and I had her tell them that she's there to hunt the kobolds and that she was heading out to do so. No one saw through the lies (God, I love passive insight), and she left.

Since they're all used to rail-roading though, apparently, they just sat there and stared at me until I said, "Well, what are you guys out to do next?" The Half-Orc decides the best course of action, despite knowing about the raiding parties and the goblins and the CULT THEY WERE SENT TO INVESTIGATE, is to GO DIRECTLY TO THE KEEP.

Now, the other problem is that, when Ninnaren returned, they asked about the cult and she TOLD THEM, as the module says, that the cult is based out of that waterfall and that they're in league with the kobolds and goblins. Even with that, the PCs are heading north to the keep to see what's there, and then they plan to "circle around" to deal with the "cult."

I'm tempted to leave everything the same, maybe modifying certain encounters because of party composition, but otherwise letting them go to their (probable) doom. That's kinda harsh, though, for a group that consists of two total noobs, one guy that's only played a few sessions of 3.5, and a guy that's played quite a bit, but never 4E.

Any advice?

ninja_penguin
2009-05-30, 04:02 PM
If anything, I found the Irontooth encounter to be the most brutal encounter of the entire module, excluding the final boss fight.

Did you ever do anything with Douven whoever, and that encounter at the dig site? I kinda of steered the group in that direction for an easier couple of encounters to get them used to the team dynamics and whatnot in combat. Also helped fluff up the reasons about the keep. I personally had seriously ratcheted down Nirian's presence in the town the first time around in order to prevent them from heading straight into the waterfall encounter.

Although if they've fallen for her for no good reason, you could easily change a few things: There's a graveyard encounter that she lures the PCs to in an attempt to kill them, which has a large minion horde and some nastier brutes. You could have her plead for the party to save them, and wait for them to be totally surrounded before popping the minions.

Also, she should supply a fake password. In the game I ran, the PCs KO'd her instead of killing her (important often overlooked 4e rule: You can make a blow non-lethal when you drop them to zero HP for free), but as soon as they found the note with the fake password they offed her.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-30, 04:02 PM
I'd think the Second Kobold ambush should hammer home that they might want to deal with the lizards first, but you never know.

For bloops and giggles, you should play up the kobolds as much as possible as directly being mocking and offensive towards the players, and don't go too easy on them either. Make them hate them so much that they WANT to ignore the cult for a while? Drop a player to 0 hp, then have a kobold take a widdle on him as he tries for a death saving throw, go wild. Be inventive and dastardly.

Failing that, I guess you'd have to work out the consequences of someone ignoring the modules secretly very linear storyline, eh? :)

....I'll finish running that damn thing one day...one day!

ninja_penguin
2009-05-30, 04:07 PM
Failing that, I guess you'd have to work out the consequences of someone ignoring the modules secretly very linear storyline, eh? :)

This is a major issue that me and the co-DM for our group have had with pre-made modules; we despise any sort of railroading, but our group generally doesn't behave as expected. In the Thunderspire module, our DM had to basically say 'stop trying to destroy the Red Key' (generic'd for the sake of no spoilers), after my Paladin figured out what it was, and IC wanted to destroy it. Generally if we can figure out a way to wing it, then we go with it. Half the party was recruited into the Town watch for the duration of the module when I DM'd it, due to all the martial characters looking for work while the arcane types were researching the cult.

RTGoodman
2009-05-30, 04:52 PM
If anything, I found the Irontooth encounter to be the most brutal encounter of the entire module, excluding the final boss fight.

Yeah, but skipping that and the rest of the pre-Keep encounters means they miss out on all the XP from them. I'm not sure an unoptimized party of 1st-level characters with 170 XP to their name (or whatever it is they earned in the first encounter) can make it through the Keep without getting slaughtered.



Did you ever do anything with Douven whoever, and that encounter at the dig site?

Ah, you, my friend, are a genious! I'd completely forgotten about that guy, since I didn't use that as the plot hook. (I used the Mysterious Omens one.) The session ended with the party in Lord Padraig's manor still, so I can just have Douven's terrified wife run in and ask for help. That should get them a little extra XP if they STILL want to head right to the keep. Heck, maybe the presence of the cult there at the dig site will make 'em change their minds.



There's a graveyard encounter that she lures the PCs to in an attempt to kill them, which has a large minion horde and some nastier brutes. You could have her plead for the party to save them, and wait for them to be totally surrounded before popping the minions.

Well, the lie she told the party to get out and warn Kalarel was that, since she'd seen so much cult activity, she was going to go meet with some colleagues in a town a couple of days away. So she'll at best have to lie low for that long. Maybe if they go save Douven (and maybe investigate the waterfall, if they change their plans) she can return secretly and try to kill them.


Also, she should supply a fake password.

Oh, I'll definitely be doing that. :smallamused:

Foeofthelance
2009-05-30, 05:47 PM
Alright, I'll bite. What's so wrong with them accidentally skipping a few filler encounters and heading right to where the plot is? If the problem is them being underleveled, throw a few early zombie encounters at them. That way they (hopefully) realize what they've stumbled into, and take it slowly. A few "random" patrols should be able to make up the missing XP for the kobolds.

ninja_penguin
2009-05-30, 07:19 PM
Well, in this case I'm suggesting doing them for the sake of getting new players acquainted with the system. I don't know if this continues onwards in the later modules, but both Shadowfell and Thunderspire have had 'TPK lulz' level difficulty encounters. In the group I DM'd, they only survived the Irontooth encounter thanks to a lucky blinding barrage from the Rogue, and then the Fighter rolling a 20 on a death save, and managing to pop back up and pin him down again. The rest of the group was already worn down from the backup, Irontooth would have devoured the entire group. That's an easy way to frustrate new players.

A few random patrols is another way around it. Basically, it helps if you can make sure that the party has the expected experience (not EXP, I mean system/team experience) and equipment going into some of the encounters. That's my personal philosophy, anyway.

Burley
2009-06-01, 06:57 AM
Okay. From personal experience here, 1st level PCs cannot survive the first... two encounters in the keep. They just can't. It won't happen. It's the first two rooms, and they would murderize your players so hard.
They really need to do the other hooks. We skipped the digsite (I think), and I sorely wish we hadn't. After the whole Irontooth fiasco, which killed 4/5 of our party the first time around, there cropped up a sense of urgency. Maybe it was that the world would end... I dunno.

Anyways, I suggest sealing off the doors to the keep. Leave two entrances: The main entrance, and one that the cult members dug into the side. The main entrance can only be opened with a key, found at the dig site. The new entrance is magicked to only open with a password, found within Irontooth's letter from Calaralaldingido.
My suggestion, anyways...