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shadzar
2009-05-30, 04:09 PM
OK so over the years there have been lots of talking about RPGs. Many people have many different idea,s and people like things simple.

How about this for an idea:

Physical
Magic

Those will be the classes. Classes will be a meta-game term only. These can can be mixed in forms to create any type of character you want, and the abilities will be divided appropriately between them.

Physical can use magic as long as they aren't doing anything but using something that is magic, and Magic can use physical for basic things but nothing major.

So a Physical classed person can use magic items/weapons, and a Magic classed person can actually do basic melee to defend themselves. I mean anyone not in a vacuum can physically engage another person so they would have to, and magic would not work only for those trained in harnessing it directly.

So what do people think about that idea?

You want to fight with bows, then you are a ranged Physical class...so there you get your ranger archetype.

With this system I see it as people can be anything they want without be tied to old ideas of classes/roles/etc.

(Note: I tried working out a game system that had no classes and you just choose what abilities to use, but no one I ever spoke to got it. They may have been caught up in stereotypes or something, but I would prefer that kind of system.)

On the races, they would be mostly only aesthetically different. You would pick up any abilities from your class, and the only thing race would offer is physical attributes (stats).

Morty
2009-05-30, 04:13 PM
You do realize there's a ton of classless systems out there already, right?

shadzar
2009-05-30, 05:20 PM
You do realize there's a ton of classless systems out there already, right?

Did I make them?

How popular are they?

The question is not are there already types of classless systems, but what people think about the premise for my idea.

Jayabalard
2009-05-30, 05:56 PM
Did I make them?

How popular are they?

The question is not are there already types of classless systems, but what people think about the premise for my idea.The implication is that you're not adding something that hasn't already been done. Pretty much it sounds like you get a resounding "Meh" from M0rt.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-30, 05:56 PM
How popular are they?

Vampire, Exalted, GURPS, HERO, M&M...

So, very?

Knaight
2009-05-30, 06:05 PM
And none of them are even close to D&D. World of Darkness and GURPS are closest, but even they aren't all that big.

That said, your idea for the game sounds like it would work perfectly using Five Point Fudge for Fudge(go figure). You could have 4 skill groups, Athletics, Covert, Combat, and Magic, and split your 5 points between them.

3.5 Classes
Rogue would be Covert 2, Combat 2, Athletics 1
Fighter would be Combat 3, Athletics 2
Most magic classes would be Magic 3, Combat 1, Athletics 1
Some magic classes would be Magic 3, Combat 1, Covert 1.

Of course, you don't actually use classes, and the points spent is then used to reference a table and create actual skills. I don't remember the specifics, but basically more points in a group means more and better skills. And you could do just Physical and Magic for the groups as well. Basically there are already systems out there that cover what you want to do and cover it well. Plus if you wanted to get extremely simple, you have Wushu. Combat, Magic, and Other as 3 skills, everything else is in this grouping. Done.

Tiki Snakes
2009-05-30, 06:38 PM
I was under the hazy understanding that runequest was classless also, pretty much?

Also, Wiki Says; "In Britain in the 1980s, RuneQuest was recognised by the gaming world as one of the 'Big Three' games with the largest market share, the others being Dungeons & Dragons and Traveller."

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-30, 06:44 PM
And none of them are even close to D&D. World of Darkness and GURPS are closest, but even they aren't all that big.

In popularity? They are below. In quality? They are far above.

Unless you count Basic D&D, then they are somewhat above.

The point is, will his system be more popular than D&D? Or even any of the systems I mentioned? Will it be better than any of them?

Unless he comes up with something revolutionary (which he might, but I have my doubts), he is probably better off using the wheel that someone else invented.

Knaight
2009-05-30, 07:58 PM
His question was how popular are they. I answered with the answer referring to popularity. I don't like D&D all that much, quality wise I would rank both systems above D&D, along with YAGS, Savage Worlds, Fudge, Wushu, and a few other systems. However in popularity, sales, etc. D&D is way ahead of everything else. Mostly due to brand name recognition, and currently being more popular than everything else, its what people find first, then as a whole people branch out all over the place, if they use a system other than D&D at all, leaving it ahead. If GURPS was what everybody knew, D&D would be a lot less popular, since people would start with it, and only some of them would go to it.

I agree with your point, it usually is better to use a system that was made by somebody else, although there are people who get good enough to make their own well designed system. Still in this case it seems gimmicky, and there are other things that do the job better.

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-30, 08:01 PM
Yes, but they are still incredibly popular compared to how popular RPGs are in general.

At least in my experience and in my country, two out of three RPG players prefer Storytelling systems to D&D. That's gotta say something.

Or maybe I just frequent tasteful circles.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-30, 08:02 PM
I was under the hazy understanding that runequest was classless also, pretty much?

Entirely, all editions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and Mongoose's). There's backgrounds (civilized, nomad, barbarian, primitive; plus a profession) that determine starting skills and equipment, but advancement and abilities are determined by what skills you increase.

And yeah, RQ was/is pretty huge, especially in certain countries (Finland, Japan...).

Class-based RPGs are a numerical minority; I have about 20-30 games, and Cyberpunk 2020, the four versions of D&D I have, and d20 OGL games are the only class-based ones. (And CP2020's classes are way looser.)

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-30, 08:05 PM
I was wondering, Tsotha-lanti: what country are you from? And how do you access so many different systems so easily?

And where do you get that kind of money?

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-30, 08:29 PM
As others have pointed out, there's a lot of classless systems out there. Of which many have been pretty thoroughly play tested. Many of which handle heroic fantasy a lot better than D&D.


That being said, it's not like I haven't put a lot of thought into this kind of thing either. Seems to me the way to go is come up with a set of abilities, rank them, then put them in a computer and see what sort of combinations are broken.

shadzar
2009-05-30, 08:40 PM
That being said, it's not like I haven't put a lot of thought into this kind of thing either. Seems to me the way to go is come up with a set of abilities, rank them, then put them in a computer and see what sort of combinations are broken.

Where is the broken coming from?

If it the players VS DM. where the obstacles the players come across are too tough or too weak by design for the player characters?

OR

Is it the players vs other players?

If the latter I would not bother worrying about anything being broken, because the game can never be at fault for the players actions to mishandle it.

If the game was a competitive game, then it should be in favor of PvP, wherein a cooperative game, each player has a responsibility to work with the other players to make the group of players work as a whole.

So what are you meaning by broken?

"Wizard is more powerful than Fighter" type thing, or DM-side vs player-side, or this just doesn't work for the game?

The Rose Dragon
2009-05-30, 08:41 PM
Oh!

Did you consider Risus?

Knaight
2009-05-30, 09:31 PM
Yes, but they are still incredibly popular compared to how popular RPGs are in general.

At least in my experience and in my country, two out of three RPG players prefer Storytelling systems to D&D. That's gotta say something.

Or maybe I just frequent tasteful circles.

Its the tasteful circles thing. D&D 3.x and 4e has something along the lines of 80-90% of the market share. GURPS and WoD have around 10% between them.

And Risus is awesome. I love that game.

Xuincherguixe
2009-05-30, 10:51 PM
Broken can mean a lot of things. And I'm not really sure which ones I meant.

Mostly though I was thinking certain combinations being far stronger than they really should be.

It's understandable if some characters are better than others. Just the fact that it's human beings playing means some characters will be better than others.

But avoiding brokenness also applies to the opponents as well. It's important to be able to control how difficult an adversary is. And in that sense, it would be best if "Monsters" used the same rules.


The most important balance, is not "Can the two of them punch each other out in a fight?" but "can they each contribute?" Really, that's the main issue of balance one should concern themselves with. And also the real "Fighter vs Wizard" to worry about.

bosssmiley
2009-05-31, 03:08 AM
I was under the hazy understanding that runequest was classless also, pretty much?

Also, Wiki Says; "In Britain in the 1980s, RuneQuest was recognised by the gaming world as one of the 'Big Three' games with the largest market share, the others being Dungeons & Dragons and Traveller."

Yeah. Runequest (and its' BRP siblings - CoC, Elric, Pendragon) are pretty much classless. Skills trump Class AFAIR.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-05-31, 03:22 AM
The Rose Dragon: Why, Koth of course-- er, Finland. I've acquired them over 15 years of gaming. That's no more than two core books per year (many of the games have nothing but the core book published, and I only get supplements for games I really get into). 'course my D&D book pile is probably well over 1 foot high, and my RuneQuest book pile tops that.

Money? Parents originally (started RPGs at age 10), then working. Most people I know spend several hundred euros per year on drinking, smoking, or their cars. I spend 95% less and use the difference on RPG books. It really adds up over the years.

There's also ways to acquire long out-of-print books, of which I have many...