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Morgan Wick
2009-05-30, 05:40 PM
"My power EXCEEDS yours!"

Hang on, this makes more sense than "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind."

Right being: Xykon, who knows a thing or two about power. Right time: In the heat of battle, as Xykon is wondering about V's true motivations. If V said it, say, as he was confirming the existence of the Soul Splice, and Xykon wasn't actively thinking, "Wait a minute, what's really going on with this elf?" he might not have connected the dots. Wrong reasons: Do I even need to say it?

The whole moral of the story is about the quixoticness of the quest for ultimate arcane power, and what V really attains is not really power but the realization of what power is, that "spells aren't power" and to respect the talents of others. V learns how to avoid the one-dimensional view of power that led to him taking the soul splice, taking on Xykon, and uttering that sentence in the first place. V is taken down a notch and realizes what his real power is, her teachers being Xykon, O-Chul, and himself.

Omegonthesane
2009-05-30, 06:12 PM
No... the four words were "I... I must succeed."

Sure, "My power EXCEEDS yours!" makes sense as what leads to V realising that UAP isn't everything in Stickverse... but that's kinda the whole point; he asked how he would gain UAP, was told how he got it, and when he got it, he found it wasn't the right tool - that no amount of pure power would solve all his problems, with his family, with the search for Haley, with himself for fleeing Azure City.

Porthos
2009-05-30, 06:17 PM
"My power EXCEEDS yours!"

...
...


...

Out of curiosity, are we going to look forward to random Four Words theorizing from various posters for the rest of the strip?

Or do you think that it'll settle down, with the occasional flareup every once in a while? :smalltongue:

David Argall
2009-05-30, 06:39 PM
It's been closing in on a hundred strips and there are still Belkar is going to kill someone because of the prediction threads. And that one was well handled and clear. So expect it to come back at times.

spargel
2009-05-30, 07:08 PM
No... the four words were "I... I must succeed."


No, she still would have gotten that soul splice without saying those four words.



that no amount of pure power would solve all his problems, with his family, with the search for Haley, with himself for fleeing Azure City.

False, he could of solved all those problems if he used the power better.

Kish
2009-05-30, 07:12 PM
...
...


...

Out of curiosity, are we going to look forward to random Four Words theorizing from various posters for the rest of the strip?

Or do you think that it'll settle down, with the occasional flareup every once in a while? :smalltongue:
If Rich confirms that "I...I must succeed" were the four words (perhaps in the commentary on the next book?) then it will settle down, with the occasional flareup.

If he never does, then yes, random theorizing for the rest of the strip it is. One of the last posts on the forum will be, "Wait a minute, why did Vaarsuvius' prophecy never come true?"

Woodsman
2009-05-30, 07:25 PM
"I... I must succeed" would seem to be the four words.

I mean, the title of the strip in which he says them is "The Wrong Reasons." Mr. Burlew didn't pull that out of a hat, y'know.

theinsulabot
2009-05-30, 07:28 PM
No, she still would have gotten that soul splice without saying those four words.





no, he wouldn't. those words were him making the constant decision to grasp the power in front of him and (literally) damn the consequences. now while i am still not sure about the validity of the plan offered by the IFCC, (seems to me there were a couple of places where things could go wrong) that is pretty irrelevant. V chose NOT to take that route. he made the decision that HE, vaarsuvius, needed to beat this himself. that he needed power. those words are the external link to grasp UAP, for all the wrong reasons. without them, he wouldn't of gained the power

spargel
2009-05-30, 07:37 PM
no, he wouldn't. those words were him making the constant decision to grasp the power in front of him and (literally) damn the consequences. now while i am still not sure about the validity of the plan offered by the IFCC, (seems to me there were a couple of places where things could go wrong) that is pretty irrelevant. V chose NOT to take that route. he made the decision that HE, vaarsuvius, needed to beat this himself. that he needed power. those words are the external link to grasp UAP, for all the wrong reasons. without them, he wouldn't of gained the power

It's a little far-fetched to say that V wouldn't of made that deal without saying "I... I must succeed".

Dogmantra
2009-05-30, 07:39 PM
I mean, the title of the strip in which he says them is "The Wrong Reasons." Mr. Burlew didn't pull that out of a hat, y'know.
Yeah, but consider: it could be setting up the wrong reasons for V actually getting UAP, it's just an idea.

theinsulabot
2009-05-30, 07:46 PM
It's a little far-fetched to say that V wouldn't of made that deal without saying "I... I must succeed".

no more far fetched then v saying a four word reply, in a page entitled "the wrong reasons" and then promptly gaining a massive, unrivaled degree of magical prowess for what was obviously the wrong reasons, NOT being the prophesied event. at least in my own, very humble opinion of course

EmperorSarda
2009-05-30, 08:06 PM
It's a little far-fetched to say that V wouldn't of made that deal without saying "I... I must succeed".

When V. asked the Oracle about getting ultimate power, he didn't ask what he must do to get it, he asked 'How' he would get it. I think there is a slight difference with the meaning of 'how'.
Anywhat you're right, The four words themselves are insignificant to actually getting power, because he was going to accept. But because it is attitude of not failing that we saw constantly in his searching for Hailey, that the wrong reasons perpetuate the four words.

The fiends could have let V go with the deal without throwing in the questionable alternate plan, but his reasoning was to help his family. They gave out the alternate plan so as to confound V, and get to the inner reason for his accepting the plan. V could have easily said that the alternate plan was gibberish and that he had no choice to accept the deal in order to save his family. The fiends did it so as to help corrupt him, to help push him over the brink. They're fiends after-all. V. didn't though. I fathom that had he done so, the Oracle would have given a different clue for V's quest for power. But as V got the power by saying those four words, and as it was to those who could give him that power, in time to save his family, but for the wrong reasons of his precious ego; that because V did it that way, the Oracle saw it that way and told him.

Or the oracle could have been boring and could have said that V would contract out his soul for ultimate power, but that's no fun.

T-O-E
2009-05-30, 08:20 PM
This actually does make sense. Kinda. More than any other 4-words theory.
I like it.

Unlikely yes, but I like it.

Rutskarn
2009-05-30, 09:09 PM
He said them.

He said them.

He said them.

HE SAID THEM.

HE SAID THE GODDAMN WORDS. IT'S OVER. THEY'RE SAID.

GAAARGGHRRK.

Meridian
2009-05-30, 09:18 PM
I don't think she has said the four words yet. I mean, 'for all the wrong reasons?' Clearly, V's motivation when she accepted the fiend's deal was to save her family. I don't think that counts as wrong reason.

T-O-E
2009-05-30, 09:18 PM
He said them.

He said them.

He said them.

HE SAID THEM.

HE SAID THE GODDAMN WORDS. IT'S OVER. THEY'RE SAID.

GAAARGGHRRK.

Exactly. He said "my power EXCEEDS yours!" and now the four words have been said and the prophecy is over. What else could it have been? :smalltongue:

theinsulabot
2009-05-30, 09:21 PM
I don't think she has said the four words yet. I mean, 'for all the wrong reasons?' Clearly, V's motivation when she accepted the fiend's deal was to save her family. I don't think that counts as wrong reason.

innacurate. had that actually been the case, i would be on your side. but V had another option that would of done the job. all it would of cost v is a level, and some pride to go back to the people he had called useless and beg there help. V did it because he wanted to do it himself

Meridian
2009-05-30, 09:23 PM
innacurate. had that actually been the case, i would be on your side. but V had another option that would of done the job. all it would of cost v is a level, and some pride to go back to the people he had called useless and beg there help. V did it because he wanted to do it himself

Well, might be, but I still think we're yet to see the ultimate arcane power. :smallsmile:

Rutskarn
2009-05-30, 09:26 PM
Exactly. He said "my power EXCEEDS yours!" and now the four words have been said and the prophecy is over. What else could it have been? :smalltongue:

HGGHRRK.

(In all honesty, guys, it was almost definitely IIMS. Let's move on, for now.)

Haven
2009-05-30, 09:32 PM
In one of these topics I saw the theory that the four words were actually "Urrk! Unnh! Glich! skrrlch." Which is probably the least sensible theory, and therefore my favorite.

Starscream
2009-05-30, 09:33 PM
Sometimes I wonder if The Giant ever sees threads like this and just wishes he had turned that freaking Oracle into a hat after his first appearance.

Volkov
2009-05-30, 09:41 PM
The four words are a lie.

spargel
2009-05-30, 10:27 PM
no more far fetched then v saying a four word reply, in a page entitled "the wrong reasons" and then promptly gaining a massive, unrivaled degree of magical prowess for what was obviously the wrong reasons, NOT being the prophesied event. at least in my own, very humble opinion of course

The exact prophecy went like this:

V: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
Oracle: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

So the act of saying those four words have to be important in helping V get the power.

If the author wanted to make sure everyone knew that was the prophecy, he probably would of made V accept the contract verbally instead of pressing a button.


innacurate. had that actually been the case, i would be on your side. but V had another option that would of done the job. all it would of cost v is a level, and some pride to go back to the people he had called useless and beg there help. V did it because he wanted to do it himself

Wanting to do it by yourself is a wrong reason?

Rotipher
2009-05-30, 10:41 PM
The whole moral of the story is about the quixoticness of the quest for ultimate arcane power, and what V really attains is not really power but the realization of what power is, that "spells aren't power" and to respect the talents of others.

That's ultimate arcane wisdom, not ultimate arcane power.

Trizap
2009-05-30, 10:45 PM
Sometimes I wonder if The Giant ever sees threads like this and just wishes he had turned that freaking Oracle into a hat after his first appearance.

no, you don't understand, he intentionally did it so he could see threads like these, Rich is playing the classic Mind Screw game with us.

Cleverdan22
2009-05-30, 10:47 PM
Wanting to do it by yourself is a wrong reason?

He didn't just want to do it himself. He knew UAP was being dangled right in front of him and he was greedy. Still, the fact that they were four words, followed by a splash panel of power, with a comic entitled The Wrong Reasons, pretty much proves it.

spargel
2009-05-30, 10:48 PM
He didn't just want to do it himself. He knew UAP was being dangled right in front of him and he was greedy. Still, the fact that they were four words, followed by a splash panel of power, with a comic entitled The Wrong Reasons, pretty much proves it.

Too bad the wording in the prophecy doesn't confirm it.

And what's wrong with wanting UAP? He didn't consciously do anything evil by real world standards to gain it.

Cleverdan22
2009-05-30, 10:51 PM
Too bad the wording in the prophecy doesn't confirm it.

True, but its an oracle. The prophecy has to be open in a way that people can interpret it for themselves until it is fufilled. The oracle in the Oedipus story predicted "Your son will be your downfall," not "When your son returns home from being a herder, he will kill you due to a passing insult and marry your wife."

Saying "You will say 'I...I must succeed after being tempted by demons of evil in order to save your family from a black dragon'" would be anticlimactic.

spargel
2009-05-30, 10:58 PM
The oracle says "By saying the right four words..." This strictly states that V has to achieve her power by saying the right four words. How do you interpret this?

Faleldir
2009-05-30, 11:00 PM
You're all wrong. V's four words will be "I am a man!", followed by multiclassing into Monk and punching someone. Because by "complete and total ultimate arcane power" the Oracle clearly meant "realizing that arcane power isn't everything".

Ron Miel
2009-05-30, 11:33 PM
Folks, I don't think the four words have been said yet. The whole point of the most recent strip is that V DID NOT gain power, he merely used someone else's power. Xykon has said most eloquently that the power was never his in the first place. He has not gained UAP yet, therefore the words have not been said yet.

Porthos
2009-05-30, 11:33 PM
The oracle says "By saying the right four words..." This strictly states that V has to achieve her power by saying the right four words. How do you interpret this?

As has been said over and over and (x many many times), the four words were spoken to V himself.

V was talking himself into touching the ball. He was convincing himself to go through the deal. He was the right person all along. That's the twist that everyone is looking for.

I mean, haven't you ever had to talk yoursef into to doing something? Well, this was the same thing. :smallsmile:

spargel
2009-05-30, 11:40 PM
As has been said over and over and (x many many times), the four words were spoken to V himself.

V was talking himself into touching the ball. He was convincing himself to go through the deal. He was the right person all along. That's the twist that everyone is looking for.

I mean, haven't you ever had to talk yoursef into to doing something? Well, this was the same thing. :smallsmile:

I already thought about that, and that's pretty much why I'm in the "maybe" crowd.

But if I was going to make a decision, I wouldn't need to say four words to myself to convince myself to go with it. I think V would of made that soul splice even if he didn't say those four words.

archon_huskie
2009-05-30, 11:43 PM
I I must Succeed.

It really is not clear that those were the four words? I disbelieve!

Porthos
2009-05-30, 11:49 PM
Alright, let's try this from a seperate angle. For everyone who is insisitng that V hasn't recieved Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power, all I have to ask you is this:

Why are you trying to screw over V even more than he already has been?

After all, there's the whole "Wrong Reasons" bit. For V to get even more power than he had whilst he was under the effects of the Soul Splice, it would not only mean that V learned nothing from the events of the last 200+ strips, but that he will further sink into moral depravity.

Again: Wrong Reasons.

This would mean that instead of learning that Ultimate Power isn't neccessarily the best thing in the world to have, V would instead become even more obseessed with getting it. That would probably mean that he would debase himself even more than he did by striking the deal with the fiends. It would mean that instead of character growth, he would continue to keep making the same mistakes over and over again in the pursuit of power.

Given all that, all I have to say to everyone who wants this to happen to V is: What did V ever do to you to make you wish such a fate upon him? :smalltongue:

spargel
2009-05-30, 11:51 PM
Alright, let's try this from a seperate angle. For everyone who is insisitng that V hasn't recieved Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power, all I have to ask you is this:

Why are you trying to screw over V even more than he already has been?

After all, there's the whole "Wrong Reasons" bit. For V to get even more power than he had whilst he was under the effects of the Soul Splice, it would not only mean that V learned nothing from the events of the last 200+ strips, but that he will further sink into moral depravity.

Again: Wrong Reasons.

This would mean that instead of learning that Ultimate Power isn't neccessarily the best thing in the world to have, V would instead become even more obseessed with getting it. That would probably mean that he would debase himself even more than he did by striking the deal with the fiends. It would mean that instead of character growth, he would continue to keep making the same mistakes over and over again in the pursuit of power.

Given all that, all I have to say to everyone who wants this to happen to V is: What did V ever do to you to make you wish such a fate upon him? :smalltongue:

We have major morals dissonance here.

Starscream
2009-05-30, 11:55 PM
You're all wrong. V's four words will be "I am a man!", followed by multiclassing into Monk and punching someone. Because by "complete and total ultimate arcane power" the Oracle clearly meant "realizing that arcane power isn't everything".

Who's to say Linkara doesn't have Ultimate Arcane Power anyway? He can make a toy gun shoot lasers, grow to enormous sizes, enter comic books to fight alongside Wonder Woman, and has a pretty sweet hat to boot.

Boaromir
2009-05-30, 11:59 PM
If I don't look directly at these threads, it can't kill my brain.

Azukar
2009-05-31, 12:02 AM
Well, I'm going to come out with it and say I'm in the "right four words have not been uttered" camp.

The title of the strip did not refer to V's words, it referred to the wrong reasons. Whether or not there will be a future strip entitled "the right four words" or not, I'm betting that V will say his words (if "My power exceeds yours" weren't they) at a later date.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 12:04 AM
We have major morals dissonance here.

I'm afraid I don't follow your comment. Could you do me the favor of elaborating? :smallsmile:

To put my argument thusly: I don't want V to keep foolishly chasing after Ultimate Power. It's a stupid character trait (a lust for power) and I would hope that these events had smaked some sense into the elf.

Where is the moral dissonance here? :smallsmile:

SPoD
2009-05-31, 12:31 AM
What I find amusing is how many people around here make the same mistake as Vaarsuvius, the very mistake that Xykon is chiding him for in this strip: mistaking Ultimate Arcane Power for Infinite Power.

If you want to parse the Oracle's prophecy, you have to realize that the word "Arcane" is being used by V as an adjective, and thus is limiting the consideration of whether the power is truly ultimate to only arcane sources. What Xykon is saying in this strip is that to do so is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of power itself.

Xykon does not have Ultimate Arcane Power, he has (let's say) Penultimate Arcane Power. But (and this is the entire point of Xykon's speech in this strip) he also has Pretty Good Lich Power, and Better-Than-Average Stat Power, and Very Helpful Friend-Who-Casts-Divine-Spells Power, Not Bad Home Turf Power, and Ultimate Experience-Fighting-Epic-Wizards Power. Vaarsuvius has Ultimate Arcane Power, and...nothing. Nothing else. He brings nothing to the table in this fight other than the Arcane Power.

So we have V with one type of power, and Xykon with like six types of power. And Xykon's point is that Ultimate Arcane Power is good, REALLY good, but the combination of all six types of power is EVEN BETTER. That it's foolish to put all of your eggs in one power basket because no one type of power is better than any other, and a lot of little advantages can overcome one big disadvantage.

As I see it, the only reason anyone is grasping for straws to explain how the prophecy has not been fulfilled is because they themselves mistakenly think that Ultimate Arcane Power can equal nothing less than an "I win!" card.

-----------------
To make this even simpler:

You walk into a store that has a sign in the window saying, "The Best Apple in the World - $100." You buy it, bite into it and indeed, it is the best apple in the world. The next day, you go to another store and buy an orange for 50 cents. You bite into it, and it's amazing. Twenty times better than the apple, easily. You run back to the first store and demand a refund: "I bought the best apple, but this orange is even better!"

The shopkeeper shrugs his shoulders and says, "I never promised you the Best Fruit in the World."

People are upset because they assumed the Best Apple (Ultimate Arcane Power) would be better than the Best Orange (Xykon's mix of arcane power, lich abilities, allies, and experience), but that was never guaranteed by the seller (either the Oracle or Rich, depending on your point of view).

spargel
2009-05-31, 12:40 AM
I'm afraid I don't follow your comment. Could you do me the favor of elaborating? :smallsmile:

To put my argument thusly: I don't want V to keep foolishly chasing after Ultimate Power. It's a stupid character trait (a lust for power) and I would hope that these events had smaked some sense into the elf.

Where is the moral dissonance here? :smallsmile:

Because I see nothing wrong with a lust for power. Ultimate power can solve pretty almost all of the problems in this comic if used correctly.

David Argall
2009-05-31, 12:43 AM
Folks, I don't think the four words have been said yet. The whole point of the most recent strip is that V DID NOT gain power, he merely used someone else's power.
The basic problem with your theory is that you are deeming writer flaws as intentional. We have a large number of people who consider these strips less than his best efforts. The 4 words don't really fit...the ultimate arcane power seems disappointing...the wrong reasons don't seem so wrong... whatever. It is just not really satisfactory.
But that our writer has not done his best here does not mean this was not his intent. There were 4 words, and V got a whole lot of power, and his reasons can be questioned. This was the attempt to fulfill the prophecy. There will not be another.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 12:43 AM
Because I see nothing wrong with a lust for power. Ultimate power can solve pretty almost all of the problems in this comic if used correctly.

Hubris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris) is very rarely considered a positive trait, you know. And that is what V had been suffering from, really from almost the first strip. It's just that it's gotten much much worse in the last 150 strips or so.

And the "If used correctly" would seem to imply that one would need Ultimate Wisdom, not Power. But, hey, that's just me.

======

@ SPoD: Excellent post, as always. :smallsmile: I agree with pretty much every word.

spargel
2009-05-31, 12:55 AM
Hubris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris) is very rarely considered a positive trait, you know. And that is what V had been suffering from, really from almost the first strip. It's just that it's gotten much much worse in the last 150 strips or so.

And the "If used correctly" would seem to imply that one would need Ultimate Wisdom, not Power. But, hey, that's just me.


Ok, but it doesn't sound like Hubris = Lust for power.

You don't need Ultimate Wisdom to avoid suffering from V's mental problems.

SPoD
2009-05-31, 01:04 AM
Ok, but it doesn't sound like Hubris = Lust for power.

Lust for power is not the same thing as Reasonable and Justifiable Interest in power. V clearly has the former, while you seem to be talking about the latter. The word "lust" carries with it strong connotations of impropriety and recklessness that should not be disregarded.

EDIT: To analogize again, "He had a strong interest in getting a puppy," vs. "He lusted for a puppy." You just sort of assume that the second person shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a kennel.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 01:07 AM
Ok, but it doesn't sound like Hubris = Lust for power.

Well, it can, but I when I made my Hubris comment I was more transitioning toward why V had a lust for power. And I was making a general point about how the character had been acting lately.


You don't need Ultimate Wisdom to avoid suffering from V's mental problems.

Perhaps. But with a bit more Wisdom, then perhaps V could have realized that the pursuit of personal power above all other things might not have been the best way to solve his problems. I think SPoD covered that point pretty well myself.

Course Xykon has his own Fatal Flaw (massive overconfidence [he likes to "play" with his opponents instead of dispatching them as easily as he can]) which will almost certainly lead to his undoing (especially if it's coupled his other Fatal Flaw [how he treats his "allies"]), but that's a debate for another thread. :smallwink:

spargel
2009-05-31, 01:34 AM
Lust for power is not the same thing as Reasonable and Justifiable Interest in power. V clearly has the former, while you seem to be talking about the latter. The word "lust" carries with it strong connotations of impropriety and recklessness that should not be disregarded.

EDIT: To analogize again, "He had a strong interest in getting a puppy," vs. "He lusted for a puppy." You just sort of assume that the second person shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a kennel.

Lust for power doesn't necessarily mean that someone wants power for corrupt reasons either.

I don't make that assumption, but I guess I'm weird like that.


Well, it can, but I when I made my Hubris comment I was more transitioning toward why V had a lust for power. And I was making a general point about how the character had been acting lately.

I'm not really happy with the way V's been acting either, but I don't see lust for power as a negative trait to have. And I think V's reason for lust of power (After the Azure battle) is because she feels powerless, not overconfident or arrogant.


Perhaps. But with a bit more Wisdom, then perhaps V could have realized that the pursuit of personal power above all other things might not have been the best way to solve his problems. I think SPoD covered that point pretty well myself.


Actually, the powers she got from the soul splice could have solved a major problem if she used her intelligence and a little more wisdom to come up with a good strategy to kill Xykon. She still managed to save her family and teleport the fleet.



Course Xykon has his own Fatal Flaw (massive overconfidence [he likes to "play" with his opponents instead of dispatching them as easily as he can]) which will almost certainly lead to his undoing (especially if it's coupled his other Fatal Flaw [how he treats his "allies"]), but that's a debate for another thread.

Overconfidence seems to be the fatal flaw of many spellcasters.

warrl
2009-05-31, 01:42 AM
Ok, but it doesn't sound like Hubris = Lust for power.
Hubris is a presumption of power, privilege, or status beyond what the fact support.

Not a desire for power, privilege, or status beyond what you currently have.

V.'s mocking of divine power as inherently inferior to arcane power was a somewhat-indirect example of hubris (indirect because there was no assertion that no wielder of arcane power could match, specifically, Vaarsuvius). It's been slapped down more than a bit (as almost-inevitably happens with hubris) by the fact that V. has now seen both Roy and O-Chul come as close to defeating Xykon as V. has managed to come, in spite of neither of them having any magic at all.

As for the four words, I am reminded of the classical recipe for rabbit stew: it start with "First, catch your rabbit".

If you don't do that first step, you WILL NOT make rabbit stew.

However, if you just do the first step, you still don't have rabbit stew. There's more.

I suspect that the oracle's prophecy to Vaarsuvius may have been along that line. Saying the right four words to the right person for the wrong reasons was an essential first step, that would be critical in leading to the second step... but the remaining steps? Not yet identified.

Hearing Xykon's lecture on the nature of power, while in the middle of having its truth so thoroughly demonstrated, is quite possibly a major step toward ultimate arcane power, and a step that had to be achieved SOMEHOW (i.e. it isn't learning the lesson *from Xykon* that is important... just learning the lesson).

On that theory, there are a number of possible "four words" that Vaarsuvius has said that were very important to leading to this point.

And what does "the right four words" mean? Does it mean "the four words you really ought to say"? (That might be "You're absolutely right, Inkyrius". Don't bother looking in the archives...) Or does it mean "the four words that will propel you down the path you have chosen, however right or wrong that path may be"?

Cracklord
2009-05-31, 01:51 AM
You're all wrong. V's four words will be "I am a man!", followed by multiclassing into Monk and punching someone. Because by "complete and total ultimate arcane power" the Oracle clearly meant "realizing that arcane power isn't everything".

Oooooh, so close. It will be multiclassing to a fighter, and the four words will be "Please teach me, O-Chul."

Oh, and Belkar doesn't actually die, he kills Windstriker. See, his fake character develpment becomes real character development, leading him to change his name and draw a picture of a breath.
Haley doesn't actually have her voice back yet, but she will take a level in paladin, get mount and that will allow her to speak again.
Durkon will become a vampire and return home, living happily ever after.
Elan will die laughing.

Was that enough sarcasm people? Because I can do more.

Fafnir13
2009-05-31, 02:07 AM
Just want to say that I believe the words have been said. IIMS met all the criteria without the use of a tin foil hat or any other form of crazy.
It will be interesting to see if V ever realizes he fulfilled the prophecy. Hind sight realizations are always fun to watch.

Omegonthesane
2009-05-31, 03:42 AM
False, he could of solved all those problems if he used the power better.
You're missing the point. Even with all his ultimate power, V was still a flawed being dealing with other flawed beings. There exists no arcane power that can fix the caster's psychological problems (except - maybe - Programmed Amnesia, but I dont' think you can cast that on yourself) and it was those psychological problems that prevented V from being as awesome as he could be. Only in 657, seeing the same dilemma as before and choosing to save another and not himself, does V finally show that he's learning from his mistakes - he can't bear to abandon another warrior to their fate while there's something he can do, even if all his magic is gone.


The oracle says "By saying the right four words..." This strictly states that V has to achieve her power by saying the right four words. How do you interpret this?
He had to say the four words to himself to convince himself that taking the splice was the only way. Otherwise he'd have touched the red orb, or hesitated too long.

Dagren
2009-05-31, 05:31 AM
If he never does, then yes, random theorizing for the rest of the strip it is. One of the last posts on the forum will be, "Wait a minute, why did Vaarsuvius' prophecy never come true?"Personally I think that's a bit unfair. From most of the ones I've seen, it would be something like "Huh. So I guess the soul splice really was V's UAP after all." Those who think that there may be a twist in the future seem a bit more reasonable than those who categorically deny the possibility.

He said them.

He said them.

He said them.

HE SAID THEM.

HE SAID THE GODDAMN WORDS. IT'S OVER. THEY'RE SAID.

GAAARGGHRRK.Case in point.

Volkov
2009-05-31, 07:26 AM
HE Already Said The Flipping Four Words!!!! Gods People Give It A Gods Damned Rest!!!!

puzpuz
2009-05-31, 08:33 AM
No, actually he already said it long time ago. The words are: "This is going poorly", here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), frame 5.

Oh, wait, it was: "General, if I may?", right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html)...

Or was it "What is a Kubota?", here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html)?

Come on, stop this madness...

Dogmantra
2009-05-31, 08:41 AM
While I appreciate that an awful lot of people think that "I... I must succeed" were the four words, I do not appreciate people using "HE SAID THEM OKAY!" as their only reason for thinking so, then implying that people who don't think so are stupid.

If you've actually been a generally nice person, and accept that people have differing viewpoints, ignore the above.

Have a wonderful day!

Ellye
2009-05-31, 08:56 AM
This actually does make sense. Kinda. More than any other 4-words theory.
I like it.Since the splice was made, I have bashed and shrugged at all theories about V 4-words.
But to be honest, this one here is actually quite decent. No, I don't think that those are meant to be the four words (those would "I... I must succeed"), but they do can be interpreted as being it in a interesting way. The thing is that, ironically, those four words will actually bring more "power" to V in the long run than those that settled the soul splice.

Ancalagon
2009-05-31, 10:05 AM
I'm not getting why you pick apart side-comments and discuss relatively pointless things as the things above, but do not reply to the really nice post which outlines the problem very nicely (the one quoted below).

In fact, I have seen the comments below in quite a few form but rarely one of the "the words have not been said" fraction to actually address them in an equally sophisticated way.

May this because you do not really know what to reply, so you focus on side battles? I'm not saying you do, but I really do not get it.
I have read quite a few very clear, concise, well-structured and well-written arguments FOR the fact that the words have been said but much less that fullfil the bold criteria from people who are AGAINST it.
Please address SPoD's post in a similar structured, nice and clear way... if you manage to do that, you might convince me you are right after all. If you cannot do that, I fear you do not have a point.


What I find amusing is how many people around here make the same mistake as Vaarsuvius, the very mistake that Xykon is chiding him for in this strip: mistaking Ultimate Arcane Power for Infinite Power.

If you want to parse the Oracle's prophecy, you have to realize that the word "Arcane" is being used by V as an adjective, and thus is limiting the consideration of whether the power is truly ultimate to only arcane sources. What Xykon is saying in this strip is that to do so is to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of power itself.

Xykon does not have Ultimate Arcane Power, he has (let's say) Penultimate Arcane Power. But (and this is the entire point of Xykon's speech in this strip) he also has Pretty Good Lich Power, and Better-Than-Average Stat Power, and Very Helpful Friend-Who-Casts-Divine-Spells Power, Not Bad Home Turf Power, and Ultimate Experience-Fighting-Epic-Wizards Power. Vaarsuvius has Ultimate Arcane Power, and...nothing. Nothing else. He brings nothing to the table in this fight other than the Arcane Power.

So we have V with one type of power, and Xykon with like six types of power. And Xykon's point is that Ultimate Arcane Power is good, REALLY good, but the combination of all six types of power is EVEN BETTER. That it's foolish to put all of your eggs in one power basket because no one type of power is better than any other, and a lot of little advantages can overcome one big disadvantage.

As I see it, the only reason anyone is grasping for straws to explain how the prophecy has not been fulfilled is because they themselves mistakenly think that Ultimate Arcane Power can equal nothing less than an "I win!" card.

-----------------
To make this even simpler:

You walk into a store that has a sign in the window saying, "The Best Apple in the World - $100." You buy it, bite into it and indeed, it is the best apple in the world. The next day, you go to another store and buy an orange for 50 cents. You bite into it, and it's amazing. Twenty times better than the apple, easily. You run back to the first store and demand a refund: "I bought the best apple, but this orange is even better!"

The shopkeeper shrugs his shoulders and says, "I never promised you the Best Fruit in the World."

People are upset because they assumed the Best Apple (Ultimate Arcane Power) would be better than the Best Orange (Xykon's mix of arcane power, lich abilities, allies, and experience), but that was never guaranteed by the seller (either the Oracle or Rich, depending on your point of view).

Nimrod's Son
2009-05-31, 10:09 AM
Spod has it right.

spargel
2009-05-31, 10:24 AM
You're missing the point. Even with all his ultimate power, V was still a flawed being dealing with other flawed beings. There exists no arcane power that can fix the caster's psychological problems (except - maybe - Programmed Amnesia, but I dont' think you can cast that on yourself) and it was those psychological problems that prevented V from being as awesome as he could be. Only in 657, seeing the same dilemma as before and choosing to save another and not himself, does V finally show that he's learning from his mistakes - he can't bear to abandon another warrior to their fate while there's something he can do, even if all his magic is gone.


V would be fine if she came up with a strategy when trying to kill Xykon. This is more of a "Power makes me stupid" thing for V.

What was V trying to do in 657? Giving him healing potions and then sneaking away wouldn't really help much.



He had to say the four words to himself to convince himself that taking the splice was the only way. Otherwise he'd have touched the red orb, or hesitated too long.

I doubt that. She was already deep in her "I must do it myself" mentality and the fiends wanted her to make the soul splice.

Ancalagon
2009-05-31, 11:08 AM
What was V trying to do in 657? Giving him healing potions and then sneaking away wouldn't really help much.

I think it's about "giving him a chance to escape". That plan apparently failed so far (by getting caught himself).

Nevadie
2009-05-31, 12:01 PM
What was V trying to do in 657? Giving him healing potions and then sneaking away wouldn't really help much.



I think it was more of a "I'll heal O-chul, then purposely fail my move silently check while walking over here so O-chul can get a flanking action unnoticed.". Because If she didn't get X's attention, he would of kept searching and noticed O-chul immediately. THEN, it would have been pointless(except for the fact that O-chul would probably die and not have to live in captivity anymore.).

So, I believe she purposely failed her move silently check to get Xykon's attention, and that when O-chul smacks Xykon upside the head with whatever he has, she will have an action ready to cast whatever spell she thinks will finish him off.


Has for the four word thing, I believe that its just like the other oracles predictions. Take Belkar's for example, he did not directly kill Roy or Miko. But, his actions lead them down the path to dieing.

So in this case, while saying the four words did not lead instantly to ultimate arcane power(has you all see it in Super-V now). But they started her on the path to realizing what total arcane power really is, and from that standpoint, she be able to achieve it.

So, I think we have seen the four words (What the four words are? It really doesn't matter has much has you think it would.), we just haven't seen the ultimate arcane power just yet.

Edit: And i think she's starting to realize it now, that having a buttload of spells isn't total arcane power. It's having a buttload of spells AND friends next to you to make up for your shortcomings.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 12:41 PM
Take Belkar's for example, he did not directly kill Roy or Miko. But, his actions lead them down the path to dieing.


I thought the whole point about this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) was that all of the analysis over those prophecies were in fact wrong. :smallconfused:

The Oracle: Yeah... I wasn't really buying those theories either... Worth a shot, tho...

Kish
2009-05-31, 12:45 PM
Edit: And i think she's starting to realize it now, that having a buttload of spells isn't total arcane power. It's having a buttload of spells AND friends next to you to make up for your shortcomings.
There's nothing arcane about having friends to make up for your own shortcomings--particularly if those friends have any class levels that aren't wizard, sorcerer, or bard.

Nevadie
2009-05-31, 12:51 PM
I thought the whole point about this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) was that all of the analysis over those prophecies were in fact wrong. :smallconfused:

The Oracle: Yeah... I wasn't really buying those theories either... Worth a shot, tho...

Yes, but if they were wrong, then belkar has yet to kill(cause the death of) one of those people, and then why didn't the oracle simply say that the prophecy hasn't come true yet. It would have saved him a stabbing, unless he purposely did it to get at belkar, which would seem kinda weird. Perhaps the two kolbolds he killed and turned into a hat and a chip bowl were related to him, so he has a personal vendetta against Belkar.

Kish
2009-05-31, 12:55 PM
Yes, but if they were wrong, then belkar has yet to kill(cause the death of) one of those people, and then why didn't the oracle simply say that the prophecy hasn't come true yet. It would have saved him a stabbing, unless he purposely did it to get at belkar, which would seem kinda weird.
It would have?

If you think the Oracle had any real chance of not being stabbed from the second Belkar showed up in the Sunken Valley with no one there who had the power to restrain him, you have quite a different view of Belkar than I do.

Cleverdan22
2009-05-31, 12:55 PM
Yes, but if they were wrong, then belkar has yet to kill(cause the death of) one of those people, and then why didn't the oracle simply say that the prophecy hasn't come true yet. It would have saved him a stabbing, unless he purposely did it to get at belkar, which would seem kinda weird.

Pretty sure he did it both to take a stab at us playgrounders, and to get at Belkar. If he wasn't going to use it to get at Belkar, then he wouldn't have built the town.

Nevadie
2009-05-31, 12:59 PM
Pretty sure he did it both to take a stab at us playgrounders, and to get at Belkar. If he wasn't going to use it to get at Belkar, then he wouldn't have built the town.

He built the town to get at belkar for stabbing him. Which would have been unneeded if he simply said that belkar's prophesy had not come true yet.

Unless it had come true and he knew that belkar would stab him upon hearing the truth.

Or Kish is right, and belkar would stab him ether way, truth or not.


There's nothing arcane about having friends to make up for your own shortcomings--particularly if those friends have any class levels that aren't wizard, sorcerer, or bard.

There is nothing arcane about will saves ether, but to take a que from what Xykon said, total arcane power doesn't mean crap if you blow two will saves.


Edit: Though after I read it again, he did directly cause the death of the oracle. But that doesn't matter because the oracle explicitly says "Your prophesy has already come true." about 21 frames before belkar kills him.

Spiky
2009-05-31, 01:13 PM
Sometimes I wonder if The Giant ever sees threads like this and just wishes he had turned this freaking forum into a hat after his first appearance.

Fixed that for you.

Starscream
2009-05-31, 01:22 PM
Fixed that for you.

Great, now I can't stop imagining Rich showing up at a convention wearing one of those Napoleon-style newspaper hats that has "What's in the Darkness?" and "Belkar is Chaotic Good" written on it.

Porthos
2009-05-31, 01:25 PM
Yes, but if they were wrong, then belkar has yet to kill(cause the death of) one of those people, and then why didn't the oracle simply say that the prophecy hasn't come true yet. It would have saved him a stabbing, unless he purposely did it to get at belkar, which would seem kinda weird. Perhaps the two kolbolds he killed and turned into a hat and a chip bowl were related to him, so he has a personal vendetta against Belkar.

<Dune>
To know the future absolutely is to be trapped by the future absolutely. :smallsmile:
</Dune>

Besides, we already know that the Oracle can't change his future. Remember he has already prophesied that a Druid will come along and chew him up into little bits after he gives an answer that said Druid doesn't like. He could just try to arrange things so that the Druid doesn't wig out when he gives his answer. But he doesn't.

But what he can (and in fact does do) is make sure that none of these deaths of his are permanent. And since he knows the future, he also knows that he will be successful at his endeavors.

By having Belkar kill him he was albe to get revenge on Belkar. He already knows that Belkar is going to die within a year, so he might as well get his kicks in at Belkar (setting off the curse) while he can.

There's also the fact that he doesn't like this group of adventurers (though it's debateable whehter he likes any group of adventureres) so why should he go out of his way to help them.

Add in the fact that the Oracle is a Deadpan Snarker (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadpanSnarker) who seems to delight in getting under people's skin and if by being killed by Belkar he can:

Get in a series of choice insults/comments at Belkar that he know will infuriate Belkar
Wreck said halflings life (at least for a little while)
More than likely set Belkar down the road that will eventually end up with him dying.
AND
Come back to life and gloat about it to Roy.

I mean, when it's put that way, why wouldn't the Oracle piss off Belkar? :smallsmile: Sure the daggers hurt as they went in. But I think that Belkar suffered much more than the Oracle did, when all was said and done.

It's just a self-fulfilling prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy), and one that will give the Oracle a great deal of amusment when all is said and done.

EDIT::::


Edit: Though after I read it again, he did directly cause the death of the oracle. But that doesn't matter because the oracle explicitly says "Your prophesy has already come true." about 21 frames before belkar kills him.

The Oracle was lying. He even said so at the end of the strip (the part I quoted earlier). People have been known to lie once in a while in this strip. :smalltongue:

SECOND EDIT:::

So I won't double post about this, I'd also like to point out the title of the strip:

The Simpliest Explanation

As in: The Simpliest Explanation is usually the correct one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)

In this case, the simpliest explanation is that Belkar killed the Oracle. Everything else requries tortured reasoning (with each case being more tortured than the last) that really doesn't suit what is going on.

Kish
2009-05-31, 02:40 PM
There is nothing arcane about will saves ether, but to take a que from what Xykon said, total arcane power doesn't mean crap if you blow two will saves.
Indeed. Too bad for Vaarsuvius s/he didn't ask about complete and total ultimate power rather than complete and total ultimate arcane power, eh? (Mind, then the Oracle would probably have just said, "You won't.")

Cúchulainn
2009-05-31, 02:57 PM
Indeed. Too bad for Vaarsuvius s/he didn't ask about complete and total ultimate power rather than complete and total ultimate arcane power, eh? (Mind, then the Oracle would probably have just said, "You won't.")

They're pretty much one-in-the-same in a D&D setting, but my theory has always been it was V's definition of what was ultimate arcane power that he would achieve. Not the Oracle's definition, not Tiamat's, and certainly not Xykon's. That happened, it failed. And it wasn't because V was screwed on what was ultimate power, it was because his definition was flawed, so he doesn't get any do-overs. At least in my humble 6:00am opinion.

Spiky
2009-05-31, 03:46 PM
Personally I think that's a bit unfair. From most of the ones I've seen, it would be something like "Huh. So I guess the soul splice really was V's UAP after all." Those who think that there may be a twist in the future seem a bit more reasonable than those who categorically deny the possibility.
Case in point.

That's an interesting viewpoint. In your scenario, those who understand the Giant's quite simple answers to his own Oracle, and are proven correct about it, are unreasonable? So, using a thesaurus, we find that the ability to understand makes you a jerk? Did you really think that post through?

SPoD
2009-05-31, 04:34 PM
They're pretty much one-in-the-same in a D&D setting,

Again, you're projecting your years of D&D experience onto the story. Rich is not obligated to confirm your feelings about the game in his narrative. We have been shown that they are NOT the same thing in his comic strip, as clear as day. Holding to the notion that your understanding of the setting is more valid than the author's explicit depiction of it is somewhat bizarre.

Morgan Wick
2009-05-31, 04:51 PM
Just to be clear: I think "I... I must succeed" is probably more likely than anything else that we've seen so far (though I think saying V himself is the "right being" is a bit of a copout), and it's hard to come up with a scenario where V would say four words and get ultimate arcane power again. But it became simultaneously more and less likely after this comic.

I wasn't trying to start a four words debate, just see how much this theory measured up as a theory. If it weren't for there being a more obvious (though not necessarily more sound) candidate.


That's ultimate arcane wisdom, not ultimate arcane power.

You're missing the point of the strip. Wisdom is power, as is Strength, Intellegence, Constitution, Charisma, and whatever I'm forgetting and a few other things besides.

Cúchulainn
2009-05-31, 05:25 PM
Again, you're projecting your years of D&D experience onto the story. Rich is not obligated to confirm your feelings about the game in his narrative. We have been shown that they are NOT the same thing in his comic strip, as clear as day. Holding to the notion that your understanding of the setting is more valid than the author's explicit depiction of it is somewhat bizarre.

Did you even read the rest of my post?

Dagren
2009-05-31, 06:33 PM
That's an interesting viewpoint. In your scenario, those who understand the Giant's quite simple answers to his own Oracle, and are proven correct about it, are unreasonable? So, using a thesaurus, we find that the ability to understand makes you a jerk? Did you really think that post through?No, people who claim that their personal interpretation is the only one possible are unreasonable. I don't recall anyone shouting at people telling them that the prophecy hasn't come to pass yet, or implying that those who think it has are stupid (or "lack the ability to understand" as you put it). I'd also like to know who "proved" that #634 was the prophecy, and how. To finish, yes, I did think my post through. Did you?

Alaba Blackveil
2009-06-01, 05:27 AM
People are upset because they assumed the Best Apple (Ultimate Arcane Power) would be better than the Best Orange (Xykon's mix of arcane power, lich abilities, allies, and experience), but that was never guaranteed by the seller (either the Oracle or Rich, depending on your point of view).

Exactly, that was the "mistake" I made.

I don't have a clue of D&D, so for me the Best Apple is not just the Best Fruit, it is even the Best Food, when it costs that much.
Will Save? Natural 1? Insert Random D&D Term here? Never heard of, before reading these forums. So, saying in your words:

You are on vacation in a foreign country, you only know a few basic words of their language. You walk into a store that has a sign in the window saying, "The Best Apple in the World...

I was thrilled by false Expectations, caused by my Lack of Knowledge and in such Situations, you don't feel like you are the Only One to blame, you think you were cheated, at least a little. But if you read some Guys Posts 'bout this, you may think they even have been betrayed.

just my two cents

Kornaki
2009-06-01, 05:33 AM
Exactly, that was the "mistake" I made.

I don't have a clue of D&D, so for me the Best Apple is not just the Best Fruit, it is even the Best Food, when it costs that much.
Will Save? Natural 1? Insert Random D&D Term here? Never heard of, before reading these forums. So, saying in your words:

If you expect the best apple in the world to be the best food in the world, then yes, you'll be disappointed when maybe it isn't.

And to be fair, for a deal with the devil V is getting it pretty dirt cheap (in fact, it's far less expensive than he was prepared to shell out)

Tova
2009-06-01, 06:28 AM
"I... I must succeed" would seem to be the four words.

I mean, the title of the strip in which he says them is "The Wrong Reasons." Mr. Burlew didn't pull that out of a hat, y'know.

As much as I suspect that this is true, I am still hoping somehow that there will be another comic with the title "The Right Four Words".

TheCountAlucard
2009-06-01, 07:21 AM
You know what?

I was in the "IIMS" camp. I was reading this thread, and I thought to myself, "You know, it's been forever since I read the strip in question. Why don't I just pop over to strip 331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and have another look?"

Now that I'm looking at it, I must say, I've changed my mind. Wow.

Why?

Because V asks, "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?", to which the Oracle replies, "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

Kinda thought about that... well, did V really say, "I... I must succeed." to any being in particular?

I'm not necessarily saying the OP is right... but at least this time V is saying four words to someone.

HuntedWalrus
2009-06-01, 07:51 AM
Okay, I may be new to the forum (Hello, by the way), but I've read all of OotS a zillion times, and I have a couple of thoughts.

1- To the people who keep posting BIG BOLD SENTENCES of frustration declaring that they think the words have been said, I'd recommend simply not reading the rest of the thread. Stress is bad for blood pressure, and a webcomic sn't worth a heart attack. But I admire your enthusiasm.

2- I've noted that the oracle said "By speaking the right four words to the right person at the right time for all the wrong reasons" Person. Singular. So any words V spoke to a group might not count.

3- Given Rich's puckish nature in the past about these things, I think "I... I might succeed" is a false lead. I think V already had UAP, and Durkon knows the four words: "I told you so." It's a phrase that has to be said to the right person at the right time, otherwise it loses its power, the power V has lusted after more than anything else: the power of Being Right.

Ultimate power? Definitely.
The Wrong Reasons? Arrogance, need for self-assurance, more arrogance...
Arcane power?... Hmm...

Omegonthesane
2009-06-01, 08:08 AM
You know what?

I was in the "IIMS" camp. I was reading this thread, and I thought to myself, "You know, it's been forever since I read the strip in question. Why don't I just pop over to strip 331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) and have another look?"

Now that I'm looking at it, I must say, I've changed my mind. Wow.

Why?

Because V asks, "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?", to which the Oracle replies, "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons."

Kinda thought about that... well, did V really say, "I... I must succeed." to any being in particular?

I'm not necessarily saying the OP is right... but at least this time V is saying four words to someone.

The idea is that he said "I... I must succeed." to himself as part of reassuring himself that he had to take the splice. Right four words (IIMS) to right being (Vaarsuvius) for wrong reasons (pride & power lust).

Shadow_of_Light
2009-06-01, 08:28 AM
I suppose it all depends on what you believe 'complete and total arcane power' to be.

If it's a fiendish trade for a three-way soul splice that can be blown after a few failed rolls, a trade that increases your own personal power, then "I... I must succeed!" are your four words.

If it's a description of power, understanding that leads you to re-think your recent actions and try to save someone else with the limited means at your disposal at the risk of your own life, then, "My power... EXCEEDS yours!" are your four words.

'Arcane' may not refer to the common D&D terminology for magic. And as Xykon himself said... power takes many forms.

Dogmantra
2009-06-01, 10:02 AM
If it's a fiendish trade for a three-way soul splice that can be blown after a few failed rolls, a trade that increases your own personal power, then "I... I must succeed!" are your four words.

This is my main argument against it: that V didn't have the power himself.

The Extinguisher
2009-06-01, 10:58 AM
V asked for "complete and total arcane power". He got that. Not complete power, or total power. Just arcane power.

The whole point on Xykon's speech is that power is great, but only one kind of power will fail compared to many kinds. If V had earned his way to the ridiculously high epic level he was here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html), the he would have wiped the floor with Xykon, because he also would have had all the other fun bonus that go along with Epic levels, like skill points, feats and many, many, many magic items.

Complete and total arcane power is not going to win the day and end the story. That would be stupid and very boring. V's prophecy has come true. And it didn't turn out to hot for him. I cannot possibly imagine V getting "complete and total arcane power" again that's even stronger then what he had, and have it NOT break the story.

spargel
2009-06-01, 01:26 PM
The idea is that he said "I... I must succeed." to himself as part of reassuring himself that he had to take the splice. Right four words (IIMS) to right being (Vaarsuvius) for wrong reasons (pride & power lust).

The only way for this to work is if those four words caused V to decide to take the soul splice, which is possible, but I find that to be unlikely.

multilis
2009-06-01, 01:41 PM
Power is power, not splices, not spells.

The 4 words have not yet occured.

Note the following spoiler is disturbing and not suitable for everyone. Viewer discression is advised! ;-)

X has shown V the path to ultimate power. X is clearly *in love* with V, that is why so cheerful and wanting to neck. This gives X a +2 bonus to some skills. (see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html)

V will give up vulcan roots and say "I love you all!" to gain a *stacked* love bonus to skill checks which will be ultimate power.

Unfortunately love hurts and too much love can be fatal. Poor Belkar.

Thrudh
2009-06-01, 02:56 PM
He said them.

He said them.

He said them.

HE SAID THEM.

HE SAID THE GODDAMN WORDS. IT'S OVER. THEY'RE SAID.

GAAARGGHRRK.

He said three words...

"I... I must succeed" is lame. Repeating a word un-necessarily is inelegant. He could have said "I must not fail" or many other word combinations that would have worked better.

Rich is a wordsmith and a trickster... I find it plausible that these weren't the words yet, and that he's tricking us...

However... I could be wrong. The title of strip certainly seems to indicate this is the prophecy being fulfilled. But I'm not sure V's reasons were really the wrong reasons (saving his family).

I still think there's a 10% chance V will achieve ULTIMATE arcane power farther down the line...

Kornaki
2009-06-01, 03:02 PM
This is my main argument against it: that V didn't have the power himself.

This is like saying that V doesn't have power because he needs a spellbook, or that a cleric doesn't have power because he gets it from a god. V could have just as easily held onto those splices for twenty years as twenty minutes if he just had a good enough concentration check

Shatteredtower
2009-06-01, 03:10 PM
Morgan Wick, interesting theory. I'm not convinced, but I won't reject the possibility either.

Ron Miel, I'm willing to entertain the possibility you've suggested. The fact that it was rejected as it was by (surprise, surprise) the following poster makes it seem even more likely:


The basic problem with your theory is that you are deeming writer flaws as intentional. We have a large number of people who consider these strips less than his best efforts. The 4 words don't really fit...the ultimate arcane power seems disappointing...the wrong reasons don't seem so wrong... whatever. It is just not really satisfactory.

In other words, given a choice between bad writing and a red herring, we must assume bad writing, just as we must assume that V can in no way be held accountable for personal failure in the fight against Xykon.


But that our writer has not done his best here does not mean this was not his intent. There were 4 words, and V got a whole lot of power, and his reasons can be questioned. This was the attempt to fulfill the prophecy. There will not be another.

Unless, of course, the writer understands the story better than David Argall -- but we all know that to be impossible, don't we?

The subtle clue that V hasn't achieved ultimate arcane power would be how poorly V used the power that was given. The obvious clue was the fact that V couldn't duplicate any divine spells. How could it be ultimate arcane power if the possessor can't do as much with the Wish spell as any 17th level wizard?

That last paragraph, Ancalagon? There's your concise refutation. How will the Giant actually address the prediction? Leave that to the writer.

Porthos, while I agree with you and SPoD on the issue of hubris, I suspect that the issue of ultimate arcane power will be located somewhere on the other side of that lesson. I think the answer lies somewhere in the vicinity of "application", but that's not the only possibility. Also, I wouldn't put the Giant to make the wrong reasons a positive, rather than a negative -- even if they're the same wrong reasons we saw in the strip with that as its title.


The Oracle was lying. He even said so at the end of the strip (the part I quoted earlier).

Well, no, Porthos, he didn't. It can be interpreted as such, but all he's really admitting is that he knew this was coming and he didn't consider any of the alternatives valid. The ambiguity of Belkar's question means we'll never know if the answer only applied to the only definite, even if Belkar and the Oracle both knew it was the only certain answer Belkar would get.

Dogmantra
2009-06-01, 03:12 PM
This is like saying that V doesn't have power because he needs a spellbook, or that a cleric doesn't have power because he gets it from a god. V could have just as easily held onto those splices for twenty years as twenty minutes if he just had a good enough concentration check

No, I'd say it's more like saying that the fighter who has his wizard and cleric buddies buff him on demand can't cast spells himself.

Sotris
2009-06-01, 04:34 PM
The right four words V was supposed to say were "O-Chul is the best". He didn't say them out loud but it doesn't matter, since every being in every plane is constantly repeating them to themselves every minute of every hour and... Opps, sorry, wrong thread. :smallbiggrin:


I really it would be great if V hadn't said the words yet, btw. I know the chances for that are negligible at this point, but one can only hope...

Faleldir
2009-06-01, 05:21 PM
He said three words...
Count them.


"I... I must succeed" is lame. Repeating a word un-necessarily is inelegant. He could have said "I must not fail" or many other word combinations that would have worked better.
Your argument is aesthetic, not logical. That's like saying velociraptors didn't have feathers because you don't like the way it looks.

EDIT: I was making fun of illogical arguments, sorry if anyone gets offended.


Rich is a wordsmith and a trickster... I find it plausible that these weren't the words yet, and that he's tricking us...
Ah, the "everything you know is a lie" argument. Well, since I'm a brain in a jar and you don't exist, I don't feel like arguing with myself right now.


However... I could be wrong. The title of strip certainly seems to indicate this is the prophecy being fulfilled. But I'm not sure V's reasons were really the wrong reasons (saving his family).
Saving his family was not the reason and you know it. He was given a choice. Whether or not the alternative would have ultimately worked is irrelevant because either way, V was willing to trust a fiend. V accepted the soul splice for completely selfish reasons.


I still think there's a 10% chance V will achieve ULTIMATE arcane power farther down the line...
How does one begin to come up with an equation to quantify that? You're either sure enough to bet on it or you aren't.

Porthos
2009-06-01, 05:35 PM
He said three words...

"I... I must succeed" is lame. Repeating a word un-necessarily is inelegant. He could have said "I must not fail" or many other word combinations that would have worked better.


The whole point of the "I... I" is to show the hesitation of V. Without it, it reads entirely differently:

I... I must succeed: Hesitation, doubt, convincing ones self, equivication
I must not fail: Confidence, no sign of hesitation, statement, possible regret (depends on context)

The two phrases, while functionally the same, "sound" different. They have different connnotations, especially when taken in context.

Consider earlier in the very same strip, we have V pontificating about how much of a noble sacrfice he is making. After the IFCC rhetorically bitch-slaps him around*, however, he is completley different. His expressions are anguised and as far certinity as possible.

Thus "I... I must succeed" re-inforces the Fear, Uncertanity and Doubt that V suddenly shows. It shows that V is subcumming to weakness and in a way that "I must not fail" cannot.

And that is why it can be argued as good writing. :smallsmile:

* Whether the IFCC was trully making a "good faith" counter-offer is quite frankly, irrelevant. V didn't say one word about how they were wrong about his motivations. Not even a raised eyebrow.

And V is not at all shy about sharing his opinons about something when he disagrees with them. Thus I must conclude that if V objected to the IFCCs reasoning about his motivations, he would have said something, even if it was only as simple as a "How Dare You!" type thing.

Kaytara
2009-06-01, 05:48 PM
* Whether the IFCC was trully making a "good faith" counter-offer is quite frankly, irrelevant. V didn't say one word about how they were wrong about his motivations. Not even a raised eyebrow.

And V is not at all shy about sharing his opinons about something when he disagrees with them. Thus I must conclude that if V objected to the IFCCs reasoning about his motivations, he would have said something, even if it was only as simple as a "How Dare You!" type thing.

While I generally agree with you, in all fairness, I do not think this part necessarily means that V agrees that they are right about him. They do not give him time to question their logic or their understanding of his motivations before they slide smoothly to the "oh and by the way, you have four seconds to decide" stage. I consider it entirely probable that the "I can't let anyone else save the day!" angle never even entered V's mind until that point (reinforced by his lack of hesitation in trying to contact Aarindarius or anyone else), especially considering that it seems he wasn't consciously aware of it at all - it was always "I must save Haley and the world" or "I must remove this distraction to saving Haley and the world". When the fiends brought his hidden motivation of needing to save his pride to the surface, I think it's the first time Vaarsuvius saw himself that way, as well. With four seconds to decide, I don't think he had the time to process all of what they were saying and object that it wasn't true.

But anyway, I think there's an additional argument in favour of "I... I must succeed" having been the four words.

In any good story, the good guys have to go through a great struggle. If, during the final confrontation with Xykon and the Snarl, V had suddenly pulled out Epic-level spells and saved the day, it would have been showy, but lame, because he would have completely stolen the stage from the rest of the Order. Therefore, Rich had to get that Deus Ex Machina-ish possibility of a plot device out of the way before the end of the story, and without sabotaging the story, as well. And what better way to do that than having it come at the climax of the character's development, when his flaws are too solidly realised to use the power so well that it would kill the story?

By contrast, V acquiring a better understanding of power through this plot twist would make him a much more effective, among other things, thus making him somewhat better equipped for the eventual showdown without giving him Deus Ex Machina powers.

The last two books have steadily shown us the improvement and growth of our characters. Roy has gotten over his grudge with his father and reconsidered his reasons for pursuing Xykon, Haley has grown more confident and responsible, Elan has grown more mature and reliable, Belkar has learned to control his impulses and listen to his long-term thinking side more. And now, with luck, Vaarsuvius will get a cooler head and a better assessment of his own abilities.

And he will never get Ultimate Arcane Power again, because by the end of this story arc he will have learned that he does not need it.

Porthos
2009-06-01, 06:21 PM
While I generally agree with you, in all fairness, I do not think this part necessarily means that V agrees that they are right about him. They do not give him time to question their logic or their understanding of his motivations before they slide smoothly to the "oh and by the way, you have four seconds to decide" stage.

He could have interrupted them, IMO. :smalltongue: I do take your point, however. On the other hand, comparing and contrasting V's body language before and after the IFCC's little Hannibal Lecture doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the "V disagrees with the IFCC's insights into his character". At least IMO. :smallwink:





V acquiring a better understanding of power through this plot twist would make him a much more effective, among other things, thus making him somewhat better equipped for the eventual showdown without giving him Deus Ex Machina powers.

The last two books have steadily shown us the improvement and growth of our characters. Roy has gotten over his grudge with his father and reconsidered his reasons for pursuing Xykon, Haley has grown more confident and responsible, Elan has grown more mature and reliable, Belkar has learned to control his impulses and listen to his long-term thinking side more. And now, with luck, Vaarsuvius will get a cooler head and a better assessment of his own abilities.

And he will never get Ultimate Arcane Power again, because by the end of this story arc he will have learned that he does not need it.

I pretty much agree with everything you said here (and in what I snipped). The whole point of this arc (at least I hope that it is) is that it's alright for V to lean on his friends and use their abilities to help his own (and vice versa of course).

We still have the inevitable fallout from this little side-arc, of course. But hopefull V will eventually emerge from it a stronger elf. :smallsmile:

Mystic Muse
2009-06-01, 06:42 PM
innacurate. had that actually been the case, i would be on your side. but V had another option that would of done the job. all it would of cost v is a level, and some pride to go back to the people he had called useless and beg there help. V did it because he wanted to do it himself

not it wouldn't have done the job. many have pointed out the flaws in this plan time and time again.
imp may not be willing to die for V
sending is a ten minute casting time
V's master may not even BE in his tower

all of that adds up to an extremely faulty plan with little chance of succeeding. the alternate plan was shown to drive V into the splice. it wasn't shown to show there were other options and in fact it seems there weren't any.

also these weren't all the wrong reasons. if V were doing it purely for pride or something with no concern for anything else then yes it would be all the wrong reasons. however V was willing to give up hir SOUL just to save hir family. I don't see how this could be considered a wrong reason.

Faleldir
2009-06-01, 07:09 PM
imp may not be willing to die for V
He's a devil. Once he offers to help, he can't change his mind.


sending is a ten minute casting time
Because Rich has always followed 100% RAW. If there was such a fundamental problem with that plan, it would have been mentioned in the comic.


V's master may not even BE in his tower
Sending contacts people, not places.


all of that adds up to an extremely faulty plan with little chance of succeeding.
Vaarsuvius did not know it was faulty. He made the right choice for the wrong reasons.

Xondoure
2009-06-01, 07:16 PM
I don't think she has said the four words yet. I mean, 'for all the wrong reasons?' Clearly, V's motivation when she accepted the fiend's deal was to save her family. I don't think that counts as wrong reason.

No, it was going to be the right reason you suggested, but then the fiends offered him a different route to save his family free of charge, but V wouldn't be doing it. It was Vir's own arrogance that made him think "I... I must succed" because he didn't want to admit that arcane power has limits. Thus, V gained power for all the wrong reasons.

Edit: as to the plan being faulty, V did not realize that and believed there was another way out. So he still accepted for all the wrong reasons.

The Extinguisher
2009-06-01, 07:32 PM
The fiends could have presented a plan where V covers himself in jelly and swims to his home. That's not the point. The point was there were other options out there, and in the end, V took the one that gave him what he wanted: power.

I mean, the fiends couldn't have suggested something with a good chance of working. Then V would have taken that.

Dagren
2009-06-01, 07:33 PM
Because Rich has always followed 100% RAW. If there was such a fundamental problem with that plan, it would have been mentioned in the comic.Are you saying that Sending doesn't take ten minutes in OotS-world? Because it does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html).

Faleldir
2009-06-01, 08:00 PM
Not if you cast it from a scroll. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)

Dagren
2009-06-01, 08:21 PM
Not if you cast it from a scroll. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)Huh. That's odd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html). Durkon seems to be taking the full casting time there. Looks like scroll use isn't terribly consistent in OotS. (I won't try claiming that it's the fact that one is arcane and the other is divine, as 2 events is not a good sample)

Kaytara
2009-06-01, 08:34 PM
Guys, if you're arguing that the plan would have failed because Sending has a 10-minute casting time...

There's another argument: Resurrection, too, has a 10-minute casting time, which V didn't know of, so the fiends didn't need to address it.

Or, an even better case: Durkon wouldn't have been able to Resurrect V and cast Sending because he had left the boat days before V was making this bargain.

Dagren
2009-06-01, 08:44 PM
Guys, if you're arguing that the plan would have failed because Sending has a 10-minute casting time...

There's another argument: Resurrection, too, has a 10-minute casting time, which V didn't know of, so the fiends didn't need to address it.

Or, an even better case: Durkon wouldn't have been able to Resurrect V and cast Sending because he had left the boat days before V was making this bargain.Oh, I know. That plan had so many holes in it it really isn't funny. But, you still get people who say V should have taken it it seems.

Faleldir
2009-06-01, 08:50 PM
Both of those details are irrelevant because V did not know them. No one is arguing that V shouldn't have taken the soul splice; what matters is the reason why he did it.

PId6
2009-06-01, 08:55 PM
Sending contacts people, not places.
If that was an intentional reference, extra nerd-cookie for you. :smallwink:

Kaytara
2009-06-01, 09:04 PM
Both of those details are irrelevant because V did not know them. No one is arguing that V shouldn't have taken the soul splice; what matters is the reason why he did it.

True, but someone already brought up the idea that the plan wouldn't have worked... I say, if we're going to argue about that, we may as well use the strongest argument, immediately. :)

Shadow_of_Light
2009-06-01, 10:21 PM
V asked for "complete and total arcane power". He got that. Not complete power, or total power. Just arcane power.
<snip!>

You're completely right in this post, and I agree "I... I must succeed!" were the four words.

If anything, the pertinent comic was entitled "The Wrong Reasons" :)

V asks for and gets a huge amount of arcane power. There is nothing in the oracle's prophecy stipulating he won't lose that power soon after gaining it, and even if V thinks 'total arcane power = total POWER' that illusion has just been quite nicely shattered.

moondog
2009-06-06, 12:29 PM
He said three words...

"I... I must succeed" is lame. Repeating a word un-necessarily is inelegant. He could have said "I must not fail" or many other word combinations that would have worked better.

Rich is a wordsmith and a trickster... I find it plausible that these weren't the words yet, and that he's tricking us...

However... I could be wrong. The title of strip certainly seems to indicate this is the prophecy being fulfilled. But I'm not sure V's reasons were really the wrong reasons (saving his family).

I still think there's a 10% chance V will achieve ULTIMATE arcane power farther down the line...

it is my opinion (and i can't believe i'm wading into this discussion after it's finally died down :smallwink:) that the four words were "I cannot fail again" said to the imp in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html) in panel 4. the reason for this is that, Qarr is the one person (the "right person" in this case -- assuming an imp counts as a person) who can make a deal that can give V the ultimate arcane power V is so desperately craving. before saying "i cannot fail again", V was basically just running around in circles trying to figure out how to deal with the ABD with the limited amount of completely normal arcane power which proved totally useless to that point.

Porthos
2009-06-06, 12:35 PM
Huh. That's odd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html). Durkon seems to be taking the full casting time there. Looks like scroll use isn't terribly consistent in OotS. (I won't try claiming that it's the fact that one is arcane and the other is divine, as 2 events is not a good sample)

(don't know if you're still reading the thread or not, but...)

Naah, no inconsistancy. :smallsmile: A) The scroll is not glowing like every other instance of one being used, and B) Control Weather only takes affect 10 minutes after the initial casting (which provides it's own problems, but whatever).

So one standard action to use the scroll and 10 minutes to get the Earth Shattering KABOOM. :smallwink:

Morgan Wick
2009-06-06, 11:43 PM
Not if you cast it from a scroll. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)

Another reason it might not be an inconsistency: I've read this interpreted as meaning the gaps are where the casting time is taking place, and only appear to be shorter to save space/time and be funnier.

Morgan Wick
2009-06-06, 11:53 PM
The whole point of the "I... I" is to show the hesitation of V. Without it, it reads entirely differently:

I... I must succeed: Hesitation, doubt, convincing ones self, equivication
I must not fail: Confidence, no sign of hesitation, statement, possible regret (depends on context)

The two phrases, while functionally the same, "sound" different. They have different connnotations, especially when taken in context.

Then why couldn't it have been "I... I must not fail"? You even get the same arguments with people claiming it's really FIVE words. Wait...

Porthos
2009-06-07, 12:28 AM
Another reason it might not be an inconsistency: I've read this interpreted as meaning the gaps are where the casting time is taking place, and only appear to be shorter to save space/time and be funnier.

Except the body language of Roy in that strip shows "continuous motion", for lack of a better phrase. Check out panels 10, 11 and 12 on the first page and especially panels 1, 2, 3 on the second. And those are just the most obvious; many of the other ones were suggesting of continutity between panels as well.

I dunno. Seems simpler just to think that Rich went with the common ruling (and one that wasn't "overturned" until almost near the end of the lifecylce of 3.5) that casting from a scroll takes a Standard Action.

I mean, we've never definitively seen a counter example of scrolls taking 10 minutes to activate. Also, if a scroll takes 10 minutes to activate, that would mean that Durkon was casting Control Weather for 20 minutes (10 to read the scroll, and then 10 to get the effect he wanted) in Comic #352 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)*. And since I already have enough trouble with the battle lasting 10 minutes, I don't think I can really justify it lasting 20. :smalltongue:

* NOTE: As I said previously, the scroll in Durkon's hand is NOT glowing, unlike each and every time we've seen a scroll activate. Furthermore, Durkon is holding his Holy Symbol, as if he were casting a spell (although in this case, it's controlling a spell). Seems to me that it's pretty clear that he's already cast the spell off the scroll off panel.

Redwing
2009-06-07, 01:01 AM
In reference to the "right four words" argument: well, the Giant has already provided an argument that V has not achieved ultimate arcane power. Through the mouth of Xykon:

"If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?"

Of course, the Oracle's wording is what matters, and the Oracle doesn't necessarily share Xykon's point of view.

Porthos
2009-06-07, 01:04 AM
In reference to the "right four words" argument: well, the Giant has already provided an argument that V has not achieved ultimate arcane power. Through the mouth of Xykon:

"If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying?"

Of course, the Oracle's wording is what matters, and the Oracle doesn't necessarily share Xykon's point of view.

Ultimate Arcane Power ≠ Ultimate Power is more the point, I think. :smallamused:

Redwing
2009-06-07, 01:33 AM
Ultimate Arcane Power ≠ Ultimate Power is more the point, I think. :smallamused:

True! But Xykon's argument in that line still works just as well if you sub in "ultimate arcane power" for "ultimate power".