T.G. Oskar
2009-05-30, 05:43 PM
Hello there. First time posting, though long-time watcher. It's almost like a second home in terms of role-playing sources.
Now, I understand that some people may not like this slight experiment, but I need some help working this out. It has pretty much taken a lot of my time, and I figure several people think better than one.
This is a small thought experiment; although the name may conjure monstrous creations such as Pun-Pun and other cheese, it's pretty much intentional. This could serve for people wishing to work something different, or as a method to block as of yet unthought cheese. As well, it may end nowhere. But it's, so to speak, for my peace of mind. The ideas running around have led to funny conclusions, and I could use some help dispelling doubts and probably removing this line of thought for better things (such as actual roleplaying and or DMing, and so forth)
Anyways, here's the details:
While watching the forums, I stumbled upon the local Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) build, by Person Man et als. I had a similar idea running around, and the build helped a lot to take some decisions (mostly, on taking Master of Masks and reaching the power of Kaorti/ribbon weapons) Unlike suggested on the build, though, I made a few changes. It's a level 20th build, so it's quite impractical, but I'll place it for purposes of analysis.
Changeling Factotum 9/Master of Masks 1/Chameleon 10
*It could be either Human or Doppleganger, but considering that Changeling is the result of a human and a doppleganger, it bears the question. Of course, if not possible (it's for flavor purposes), a human is fine.
Feats: Able Learner, Bind Vestige, Defensive Shell, Hidden Talent, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind, Shape Soulmeld
*Both Able Learner and Hidden Talent are 1st level only feats. A human could gain access to both easily, but in this case, given it's just a theoretical build with every book open, you could consider the second 1st level feat as a result of a flaw (in this case, Frail). The other feats are mostly to give the flavor of an individual who can very well do anything.
You may notice I haven't included the Chameleon everchanging bonus feat. This is part of the exercise, so bear with me while I apply it later.
For purposes of stats: Int is evidently the highest score, followed by Dex, Wis, and Cha. Int should be 18 or higher; this is the Factotum score per excellence. Wis must have a minimum of 16 for purposes of casting spells. Dex takes precedence over Cha. Str can be left as a "dump" stat for this exercise; Con should have a minimum of 13 to qualify for Shape Soulmeld.
Skill-wise, consider having max Use Magic/Psionic Device skill ranks, a modicum of Truenaming (for Minor Utterance, however useful that may be), Spellcraft and Psicraft at considerable points, and the rest however you like. If necessary, all Craft ranks applicable should be at maximum (this probably means Craft [armorsmithing, arrowmaking, bowmaking, jewelry, weaponsmithing])
Now, for the exercise:
At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.
Now, evidently, you can't use Chameleon to qualify for item creation feats, because the description of the class restricts it completely:
You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
This would present the first hurdle, but then comes the Arcane Dilettante ability from the Factotum. As presented in Dungeonscape, it allows preparing and casting an arcane spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, with a caster level equal to the class level. It could be interpreted as a method to comply with prerequisites, but it also has the drawback of being considered spell-like abilities, which would imply that the character cannot acquire feats that need caster level. This can be directly countered by the mention of knowing and applying metamagic feats to the prepared spell, which implies that the spells from Arcane Dilettante are considered spells for all purposes, including qualifying for feats (including, and not limited to, the Chameleon bonus feat)
Now, here's where I find myself asking you:
A) Has this experiment been tried before? Perhaps on the archives of this forum, the WotC forums, or the BG forums? It would be helpful to find resources on this.
B) By RAW and RAI, and considering errata: can the Factotum class ability Arcane Dilettante allow this theoretical character to be considered having a caster level for purposes of qualifying for Item Creation feats? It would be stupid, not to mention useless, to propose such idea without considering if it's legal or not. It would at least offer some peace of mind. Note: I'm asking whether if it is possible or not through what it is presented in the books as well as your possible interpretations; whether a DM allows this or not in his or her particular game should not apply. Either strict interpretation of the rules or personal interpretations as players and collaborating DMs.
C) Considering that B) is true (Arcane Dilettante allows to qualify for item creation feats), how would this work? Most specifically: the DMG requires a character to comply with a minimum caster level to create a magic item. Would the Chameleon's caster level suffice, or does it requires to use the Factotum's caster level instead? Is the minimum caster level requirement for the creation of magic items depending on the minimum caster level required to cast the highest spell to prepare the item, or does it depends on the actual character's caster level?
D) Considering that B) is true: which would be good ways to improve caster level for purposes of qualifying for the feats? To explain further: according to the PHB (and easily accessible through the SRD), Craft Staff and Forge Rod require a minimum caster level of 12th. With nine levels of Factotum, the character's caster level to qualify for these feats would be 9; hence, considering that B) is true, a Factotum/MoM/Chameleon couldn't qualify for these 2 previously mentioned feats. I recall that one of the Ioun Stones grants a +1 to caster level, but only one can be used. I've seen a good source where caster levels can be raised, but I believe that the restrictions and the importance of having such boon last a minimum of 8 to 24 hours for purposes of meeting the feat's prerequisites pretty much disqualifies the bulk of such options.
E) This is probably a general doubt, but: can spells from scrolls, wands, and staves be used to create magic items? Or only prepared spells? I reckon that if using the Chameleon spells (which last a minimum of 24 hours in mind unless expended), you'd have only a minimum of up to 6th level spells, which work for a wide range of spells. As well, given that the Chameleon can "prepare" spells from any arcane or divine spellcasting class, that means they can prepare spells from either Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Blackguard, and any other strictly arcane or divine spellcasting class that has unique spells not currently available to the core classes (and core PrCs)
F) On that line of thought: is there a way to increase the manifester level for purposes of creating psionic items? Can powers from crystals or dorjes qualify for purposes of creating magic items? If this were true, then you'd be capable of qualifying for psionic item creation feats given the presence of Hidden Talent.
G) On the nature of polymorph spells and so forth: is there a way to, with the following abilities, extend or turn persistent such spells in order to meet racial requirements for item creation? Say, using something like Alter Self to qualify for racial exclusive items, or Polymorph, or even Polymorph Any Object. This could also apply to the Graft Flesh feat, which would expand the options.
H) Any other recommendations, aside from "stop ruining the fun of D&D with over-the-top, chimerical creations!!" and the like?
Finally, some disclaimers:
a) I ain't the kind of guy who formally introduces himself on a specific thread, so I beg of you to excuse me if this is a rather awkward way to introduce myself.
b) I'm well aware that I'm quoting some of the content. If necessary, please inform me if the included content does not violate the codes of conduct of this place (although I only make quotes and I explicitly mention the book and page where I took the information from). I'll remove the material if it offends the CoC.
In either way, thanks for watching this long post, and sorry if I made you go blind or something. It's something usual on my part. And thanks in advance on either aiding or proving me if the exercise is im/possible
Now, I understand that some people may not like this slight experiment, but I need some help working this out. It has pretty much taken a lot of my time, and I figure several people think better than one.
This is a small thought experiment; although the name may conjure monstrous creations such as Pun-Pun and other cheese, it's pretty much intentional. This could serve for people wishing to work something different, or as a method to block as of yet unthought cheese. As well, it may end nowhere. But it's, so to speak, for my peace of mind. The ideas running around have led to funny conclusions, and I could use some help dispelling doubts and probably removing this line of thought for better things (such as actual roleplaying and or DMing, and so forth)
Anyways, here's the details:
While watching the forums, I stumbled upon the local Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) build, by Person Man et als. I had a similar idea running around, and the build helped a lot to take some decisions (mostly, on taking Master of Masks and reaching the power of Kaorti/ribbon weapons) Unlike suggested on the build, though, I made a few changes. It's a level 20th build, so it's quite impractical, but I'll place it for purposes of analysis.
Changeling Factotum 9/Master of Masks 1/Chameleon 10
*It could be either Human or Doppleganger, but considering that Changeling is the result of a human and a doppleganger, it bears the question. Of course, if not possible (it's for flavor purposes), a human is fine.
Feats: Able Learner, Bind Vestige, Defensive Shell, Hidden Talent, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind, Shape Soulmeld
*Both Able Learner and Hidden Talent are 1st level only feats. A human could gain access to both easily, but in this case, given it's just a theoretical build with every book open, you could consider the second 1st level feat as a result of a flaw (in this case, Frail). The other feats are mostly to give the flavor of an individual who can very well do anything.
You may notice I haven't included the Chameleon everchanging bonus feat. This is part of the exercise, so bear with me while I apply it later.
For purposes of stats: Int is evidently the highest score, followed by Dex, Wis, and Cha. Int should be 18 or higher; this is the Factotum score per excellence. Wis must have a minimum of 16 for purposes of casting spells. Dex takes precedence over Cha. Str can be left as a "dump" stat for this exercise; Con should have a minimum of 13 to qualify for Shape Soulmeld.
Skill-wise, consider having max Use Magic/Psionic Device skill ranks, a modicum of Truenaming (for Minor Utterance, however useful that may be), Spellcraft and Psicraft at considerable points, and the rest however you like. If necessary, all Craft ranks applicable should be at maximum (this probably means Craft [armorsmithing, arrowmaking, bowmaking, jewelry, weaponsmithing])
Now, for the exercise:
At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.
Now, evidently, you can't use Chameleon to qualify for item creation feats, because the description of the class restricts it completely:
You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
This would present the first hurdle, but then comes the Arcane Dilettante ability from the Factotum. As presented in Dungeonscape, it allows preparing and casting an arcane spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, with a caster level equal to the class level. It could be interpreted as a method to comply with prerequisites, but it also has the drawback of being considered spell-like abilities, which would imply that the character cannot acquire feats that need caster level. This can be directly countered by the mention of knowing and applying metamagic feats to the prepared spell, which implies that the spells from Arcane Dilettante are considered spells for all purposes, including qualifying for feats (including, and not limited to, the Chameleon bonus feat)
Now, here's where I find myself asking you:
A) Has this experiment been tried before? Perhaps on the archives of this forum, the WotC forums, or the BG forums? It would be helpful to find resources on this.
B) By RAW and RAI, and considering errata: can the Factotum class ability Arcane Dilettante allow this theoretical character to be considered having a caster level for purposes of qualifying for Item Creation feats? It would be stupid, not to mention useless, to propose such idea without considering if it's legal or not. It would at least offer some peace of mind. Note: I'm asking whether if it is possible or not through what it is presented in the books as well as your possible interpretations; whether a DM allows this or not in his or her particular game should not apply. Either strict interpretation of the rules or personal interpretations as players and collaborating DMs.
C) Considering that B) is true (Arcane Dilettante allows to qualify for item creation feats), how would this work? Most specifically: the DMG requires a character to comply with a minimum caster level to create a magic item. Would the Chameleon's caster level suffice, or does it requires to use the Factotum's caster level instead? Is the minimum caster level requirement for the creation of magic items depending on the minimum caster level required to cast the highest spell to prepare the item, or does it depends on the actual character's caster level?
D) Considering that B) is true: which would be good ways to improve caster level for purposes of qualifying for the feats? To explain further: according to the PHB (and easily accessible through the SRD), Craft Staff and Forge Rod require a minimum caster level of 12th. With nine levels of Factotum, the character's caster level to qualify for these feats would be 9; hence, considering that B) is true, a Factotum/MoM/Chameleon couldn't qualify for these 2 previously mentioned feats. I recall that one of the Ioun Stones grants a +1 to caster level, but only one can be used. I've seen a good source where caster levels can be raised, but I believe that the restrictions and the importance of having such boon last a minimum of 8 to 24 hours for purposes of meeting the feat's prerequisites pretty much disqualifies the bulk of such options.
E) This is probably a general doubt, but: can spells from scrolls, wands, and staves be used to create magic items? Or only prepared spells? I reckon that if using the Chameleon spells (which last a minimum of 24 hours in mind unless expended), you'd have only a minimum of up to 6th level spells, which work for a wide range of spells. As well, given that the Chameleon can "prepare" spells from any arcane or divine spellcasting class, that means they can prepare spells from either Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Blackguard, and any other strictly arcane or divine spellcasting class that has unique spells not currently available to the core classes (and core PrCs)
F) On that line of thought: is there a way to increase the manifester level for purposes of creating psionic items? Can powers from crystals or dorjes qualify for purposes of creating magic items? If this were true, then you'd be capable of qualifying for psionic item creation feats given the presence of Hidden Talent.
G) On the nature of polymorph spells and so forth: is there a way to, with the following abilities, extend or turn persistent such spells in order to meet racial requirements for item creation? Say, using something like Alter Self to qualify for racial exclusive items, or Polymorph, or even Polymorph Any Object. This could also apply to the Graft Flesh feat, which would expand the options.
H) Any other recommendations, aside from "stop ruining the fun of D&D with over-the-top, chimerical creations!!" and the like?
Finally, some disclaimers:
a) I ain't the kind of guy who formally introduces himself on a specific thread, so I beg of you to excuse me if this is a rather awkward way to introduce myself.
b) I'm well aware that I'm quoting some of the content. If necessary, please inform me if the included content does not violate the codes of conduct of this place (although I only make quotes and I explicitly mention the book and page where I took the information from). I'll remove the material if it offends the CoC.
In either way, thanks for watching this long post, and sorry if I made you go blind or something. It's something usual on my part. And thanks in advance on either aiding or proving me if the exercise is im/possible