The new warhammer fantasy thread. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

BloodyAngel

2009-05-31, 02:23 PM

As someone who plays Ogres on occasion, here's my two-cents. The weapon of choice against WE is Fire magic. Alas, as an ogre, you're harshly limited in that department. Magic in general tends to be their bane... as it rarely rolls to hit, thus ignoring their skirmishing abilities. Trying to charge WE is just playing their game.

Load a few butchers... load your Bangstick... and blow the pointy-eared schmucks to bits. Avoid leadbelchers... they're too likely to blow up, and too unlikely to hit. Yeti are your best bet for charging, as they ignore terrain... so the WE trick of "bait them into woods, so they're slow" doesn't really work. Use your close combat units on the trees, when you see them. I can't recall the name, but the magic missile you have that does S 2 hits with no armor is your best bet for killing those annoying skirmishers. (Bonecruncher?) Instead of running all around chasing down elves, hang back and let him pop out of his cover to shoot... then make him pay for it. Your force should consist of yeti, Ironguts, Gnoblar Trappers, gnoblar fighters and butchers. Possibly a hunter for tree-killin! And who knows... this might even be one of the rare cases that a scraplauncher isn't a bad way to go. It's tough enough to survive their low S shots, and they have no armor to ignore IT'S str 3 template attack.

It's going to be a rough fight regardless.... as you don't have any of the tools really needed to beat woodies. Their usual bane in close combat is units with good CR... as they never get CR for skirmishing. A few giant piles of gnoblars might help in that regard... but any elf player worth the name won't charge a unit unless he's SURE he can beat it, and the gnobs will never chase him down. Stick to magic, all the way. And if you can find a way to add in a dogs of war fire magus.... well. Them trees burn nice and pretty! :smallamused:

Erloas

2009-05-31, 08:41 PM

Anyway, I'm finally starting my Empire army and was wondering if it was possible to equipe the state troops with magnets so one could change their exact type(swordsmen, spearmen, etc.) inbetween battles. So... is it possible/probable?

For state troops it probably isn't worth it. It is a fairly cheap set, and it has fairly small arms. I have used magnets on a lot of my models, but so far the only infantry type model is an Eldar Autarch. It was easy enough to set the magnet in the torso, but the arm was too small to take a magnet without basically cutting off the top of the arm and greenstuffing it to make it look reasonable and even then it wouldn't be attached well.
What I ended up doing is using a small nail in the arm for the magnet to stick to. Unfortunately the attraction isn't quite strong enough to hold it on much. The only reason it works is because the model is on a bike and the handlebars on the bike hold the weapon up and close enough that the magnet is strong enough to keep it in place.

On most small models I just done see it working well.

Ash08

2009-05-31, 10:52 PM

hhmm... that's too bad... the army that i'm planning right now would probably have more than 60 state troops(close combat variaty) which I would think it would be pretty helpful to be able to switch their "type" from time to time...

onasuma

2009-06-01, 12:03 AM

I came up with a cool concept for a maneater conversion. The Mexican bandit. Poncho, bandoleers, sombraro and double sawed off shotguns for his weapons.

As someone with 6 converted maneaters, I have to say that this is the best idea anyone has ever had, ever. Make it now.

tribble

2009-06-01, 02:55 PM

As someone with 6 converted maneaters, I have to say that this is the best idea anyone has ever had, ever. Make it now.

seconded, even though i do not play WH.
what's the fastest thing you have access to as an ogre? something unimpressive but nasty would probably be good, like skaven ratswarms or chaos Warhounds.

Shades of Gray

2009-06-01, 03:50 PM

Fastest for Ogres? They are already plenty fast. Although I recall that Yetis and Sabretusks (I think that's what they're called) from a hunter are faster.

TheThan

2009-06-01, 04:26 PM

Fastest for Ogres? They are already plenty fast. Although I recall that Yetis and Sabretusks (I think that's what they're called) from a hunter are faster.

yeah their the only things in the army that are faster than a standard ogre. you could give a hero the longstrider big name. makes them spd 7, which means 14 inch charge/march and 3d6 on fleeing and pursuit. but that's one model (unless you throw it on a hunter with sabercats).

BloodyAngel

2009-06-04, 12:12 PM

Yep. Ogres are already faster than most non-cavalry troops out there. Speed isn't usually an issue. What they lack in is armor, and static CR.

But I digress. I'm working on building a dark elf infantry list. Not to be truly super-good... more because I like the models and the challenge of playing it. I'm going for a fighting force built around the special choice infantry. Black Guard, Witch Elves, Executioners, and Shades. A few units of crossbowmen for my core... maybe a spearmen unit for cheap CR, and some harpies to do what harpies do.

Has anyone seen an idea like this tried and done well? I figure the Black Guard will be my center liners... and the most robust, large unit. The witches and Executioners will be smaller units, as they're more specialized. Maybe a sorceress with the sacrificial dagger in the spearmen unit to rain magical death, and the rest... I'm uncertain about. I'm open to ideas. :smallbiggrin:

onasuma

2009-06-04, 12:33 PM

Isnt a gorger faster than a normal ogre? I always thorght it was. + the deployment thing is great.

Edit: checked, Im wrong, gorgers are just 6, but the deployment makes them fast.

Fastest thing is sabertusks. You get 2 from taking a hunter (alebeit at a cost) but they can simply detach themselves and enjoy 8 M so a 16" charge.

TheThan

2009-06-04, 12:33 PM

My bro has DE army. His is based on DE warriors, crossbowmen and corsairs. He’s got a unit of cold one knights and is looking at getting some dark riders. He’s got two warhydras (which rarely fail him), the hero on the dragon and is scratch building a manticore out of a Hordes model. Oh and he just got a unit of shades.

He’s got two sorceresses, Fellheart, one or two assassins, and I think another hero. It does fine against normal infantry, but last time I fought him, I squash him. I (got lucky) and beat his hydras in close combat (one with my hunter and his cats, the other with a giant), and his strength three toughness three elves are just not strong enough nor tough enough to beat the ogres reliably in close combat. So as long as I get my charges off, his units didn’t give me too much trouble.

He usually brings two units of corsairs and a unit of crossbowmen or warriors, A hydra or two, a sorceress, another hero (fellheart), some assassins and one or two hydras and a few other things. He realized recently that he’s paying too many points for one unit of corsairs (the one with fellheart), that isn’t good enough for the points sink, and is looking to change his list up.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-04, 11:22 PM

Well I can see two of his problems right there.

A: Never use special characters. They're too expensive and usually not worth it. (And when they are, they're on the far side of broken)

B: Never get charged. NEVER. Elves are delicate flowers, and we do not take hits to the face well. I flee from charges about 80% of the time. I've played against ogres before, and had little trouble with my infantry force. Granted, you might just be a better player than your brother... but the dark elves are MORE than capable of taking out ogres if they have to. Crossbow fire whittles down the low-armored troops (which is all ogres, really) and if you can bait and set up things to avoid getting charged (or if all else fails, get so close he can't hit you with bull rush) you can beat ogres in close combat. Corsairs probably aren't the way to go to do it though. Advise him the grab harpies and lots of 'em... and to use his special choices against you. Black Guard and Witch Elves can do pretty scary damage to ogres, and both are immune to your fear.

Of course, that's if you WANT him to have a chance at taking you out. :smallamused:

Zenos

2009-06-05, 03:57 AM

I just painted a cannon I've had for some months but not been in the mood to paint. So now I have something to hit my brother's monsters with.

TheThan

2009-06-06, 01:02 PM

Actually Blitz (my bro)is the better player. I just have a talent for noticing things that he doesn’t, rules and the like. As far as the characters bit, yeah he’s pretty much come to the same conclusion, so now he has to revamp his army. His infantry does as good as any other infantry, he just doesn’t have much in the way of rare and special choices to fill out his army.
But right now he’s working on a Dark Eldar force for a 500 point 40K tournament in a few weeks. So he’s sorta shelved his fantasy stuff for a while. I’m going to borrow a friends space marines or possibly Tau we can get them assembled. I’m more interested in Tau than marines, but that’s for the 40K thread.

Blitz and me came up with a great idea for a squad of maneaters. I’m going to make team of Luchadores, you know Mexican wrestlers. Complete with colorful masks, tassels and a wrestling ring. It’s a four-ogre tag team.

Man eater 1:
Flying off the top rope onto someone.

Man-eater 2: holding a goblin or orc (probably orc) in a sleeper hold.

Man-eater 3: holding rope, trying to tag in.

Man-eater 4: awesome wrestling pose.

Its going to take a lot of work and a crap ton of putty, but I think if I go slow and make sure not to screw up it’ll come out awesome. if I can ever get them done I’ll post picks. I'm probably going to make a small display board for them when i do.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-06, 03:37 PM

Man eater 1:
Flying off the top rope onto someone.

Man-eater 2: holding a goblin or orc (probably orc) in a sleeper hold.

Man-eater 3: holding rope, trying to tag in.

Man-eater 4: awesome wrestling pose.

This sounds AWESOME! I wants pics when it's done! :smallbiggrin:

onasuma

2009-06-06, 03:39 PM

When its done? I want em now!

TheThan

2009-06-07, 03:46 AM

Yeah, I decided their gutplates are going to be championship belts. One guys is going to be holding it up over his head in triumph.

Anyway I played another game against the high wood elf player. I scored about 600 points, and he scored about a 1000 so it was a minor victory for him.

So what I did differently is I broke my lead belchers down into four units of two, thusly giving me the ability to scatter my ranged punch out. I brought a unit of three maneaters (proxies) armed with braces of handguns with my tyrant imbedded in it, also with a brace of handguns. I also broke my unit of ironguts into two units of four, and armed a butcher with a bangstick. Its too late for me to type out a play by play, but I did really good up until I got three misfires and a miscast all in one turn. That killed a unit of lead belchers, and I lost my +1 strength spell for the rest of the game. The maneaters did fantastic, it took him six rounds of shooting to kill one, and I managed to kill enough stuff that he was afraid to get near them and the other units they were guarding. So I didn’t get outflanked really easily. One leadbelcher shot wiped out his flying guys he had (not really sure what they were). I think if I hadn’t of lost the unit of lead belchers (and have them actually kill something), it would have been a draw. My maneaters/tyrant combo rocked his little tree dudes in close combat. (He chased a guy into charge range). So I’m much happier with the outcome despite still loosing.

edit
miss type, stupid elves and their subraces.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-07, 01:34 PM

If you fought little tree dude, I think you meant you were fighting wood elves, Than. The high elves have nothing like that. :smalltongue:

In other news myself, I shall be facing Brets soon... and plan to stomp them mightily into the ground, break their banners over my knee, and set their peasantry on fire out of sheer, malicious spite. I'm going to debut my new infantry list against them (Minus the witch elves) and see how things go. I expect much Bret blood to spill. :smallbiggrin:

Here's a first draft of the list I'm thinking of pulling out. 2 units of 10 Crossbowmen each
24 Spearmen w/ full command and a warbanner
5 harpies
14 Black Guard w/ full command, Crimson Death and Banner of Hag Graef
10 Executioners w/ Unit Champion
6 Shades w/ Great Weapons
War Hydra
2 Bolt Throwers

for heroes... I'm taking a Death Hag with the Cauldron of Blood, a pair of Lv. 2 sorceress, and a Dreadlord of some sort... but I've not decided how I'm equipping them yet. Has anyone got any ideas?

TheThan

2009-06-07, 02:18 PM

My experience is that you need to bate them into charging something hard, that way it won’t die to the cav, then swoop in and crush it in melee. If you can get brets tied down in melee you win.
But they have such far reaching charges that its hard to do. Another idea is to put something out there with high leadership, flee as a charge reaction, then rally them and do the same thing as above. Basically you need to make them waste their charge on something then hit them from the sides. At least in my experience that’s what you have to do. Your experiences may vary.

As for magic, I have no idea, I’ve only glanced though the magic item pages of the codex.

Anyway I wish you lucked in your campaign to slaughter those annoying horse boys. May you kill many warriors and take many slaves.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-12, 03:47 PM

So the bret game came up. Sort of... It was supposed to be a 2 on 2... but one of our players couldn't make it, so we just ended up playing a free-for all! Nothing serious... no one expecting to win, really. Just playing to have fun. In the spirit of that, I played my Dogs of War force, instead of my dark elves.

It was bloody. My troops got spanked and spanked hard. The other players were playing empire and brets, respectively... and the brets ended up taking the field. Even so... the game was a blast! I haven't had so much fun playing in a while. (I used to play with a lot of powergamers and competitive jerks) I've decided I really like my dogs, and I'm considering getting a slew of troops for them when I can afford it. Does anyone know of any good models for them? I've seen all the stuff on the GW website, and I like a few of the empire heroes to use as my merc leaders... but I'm going for a force that's very spanish and/or italian in theme... so if anyone knows of any models that would fit the bill... I'd appreciate it. :smallbiggrin:

TheThan

2009-06-12, 06:21 PM

Good to hear you had fun. That’s the most important part of the hobby.

Anyway I thought I’d direct you all to some pics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6277555#post6277555) of my ogres I just took.

Unfortunately I don’t have the man-eaters yet. but you’ll have something to look forward to later.

Hmm maybe try some historical game of some sort (don't really know any that's not WWII).

Squeeck

2009-06-14, 04:57 AM

Does anyone know of any good models for them? I've seen all the stuff on the GW website, and I like a few of the empire heroes to use as my merc leaders... but I'm going for a force that's very spanish and/or italian in theme... so if anyone knows of any models that would fit the bill... I'd appreciate it. :smallbiggrin:

Wargames Foundry http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/ has slew of late renaissance, conquistador and pirate models, and what's best, in good old-fashioned METAL. Many of the sculptors have also worked with GW in the past, so there's not much stylistic clash, either.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-20, 12:26 PM

Well, it's been a few since my duel to the death with my Tileans... I thought I had a good plan, going in, but alas.

In any case, I'm heading out for a short, informal tournament, and I'm thinking of bringing the dogs along. I know it will be rough, and will end horribly for me, but I like playing the underdog, and I'm expecting an awesome comp score just for showing up as them. The whole thing is just a small min-tourney done at my local game store... not a GW thing... so they're less picky about proxy armies and older, optional forces. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to make the Dogs of War competitive. It's a long shot... but why not? I don't expect to win, but I'd like to give a good showing. Besides... I want to see the faces of the guys who get beat by a girl with an underpowered army. :smallbiggrin:

Arcanoi

2009-06-20, 01:39 PM

A friend of mine who always seemed to beat me with his Dogs used lots of ogres and a couple of giants, and then loaded up on shooty and cavalry regiments. I don't know if he had a single basic infantry troop, but I was never quite able to get him to grips with my VCs and he would always manage to tear my Blood Dragons apart after they had broken only one or two regiments.

Pilum

2009-06-20, 07:26 PM

I've decided I really like my dogs, and I'm considering getting a slew of troops for them when I can afford it. Does anyone know of any good models for them? I've seen all the stuff on the GW website, and I like a few of the empire heroes to use as my merc leaders... but I'm going for a force that's very spanish and/or italian in theme... so if anyone knows of any models that would fit the bill... I'd appreciate it. :smallbiggrin:
Oddly enough, how about some figures from the Italian Wars in the Renaissance? :smallwink:

Old Glory US Italian Wars site (http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=184)

I'll also link the UK & Europe site (http://www.oldgloryuk.com/disp_items.php?m=17&sh=2) as they have some of them painted up. Note that this site has the artillery and Swiss etc off on the side. The only thing is, Old Glory describe them as 25mm. What I don't know is if they're 'true' 25s or "large" (i.e. 28s) and there's nothing in the FAQ. Then again, I suppose that's what "contact us" is for!

As for DE vs Heavy Cav - I had some glorious slaughter with a (comparatively) knight-heavy empire player recently. This may be long...:
Should warn you I don't have the actual list or my army book handy, so there will be a few ??? present! And if the points don't seem to add up - They did on the day, so I may be confusing two games. However, the unit types and approx numbers should be accurate.
Dreadlord, Executioner's Axe, Hvy Armour & SDC
Master, Sword of Ruin, Hvy Armour, SDC & Cold One
Lvl 2 Sorc, Lifetaker, as I just find this SO useful to pack onto a 'stand at the back' wizard... and I think the Extra Spell item. (She went Metal as I KNEW he liked knights based on a previous game and I REALLY wanted that 'multiple burning iron' spell)
Lvl 2 Sorc, Darkstar Cloak (??? extra power dice) & Dispel Scroll.

20 BG, ASF banner, command.
15 Corsairs, command, Frenzy banner.
20 Spears, shield, command, War Banner.
10 RXB's, shield, command.
5 COK's, command. I'm sure they had a magic banner, the one that gives a bonus attack or to CR on the charge, I think...
2 RBT's
1 Hydra (OK, it was actually his griffon and 2 spare DE figures, because I'd never really used one and wanted to "try before I buy").

One of those games were the Gaming Gods felt I was due a little payback! His cannon and mortar, while guessed as well as he ever does, consistently over- or under-shot with the dice and his wizards were clearly from the Rincewind school of sorcery while mine, for a change, had actually read their copy of "Dispelling for Dummies".

There were ruins roughly in the middle of the table occupied by his scouts, these were cleared by my RXB's with a single volley (those dice gods again...!) leaving me free to advance with my left flank anchored on them, my right on a handy wood (if I'd set the terrain up myself, I couldn't have done it better!), except the Hydra which was sent round to the left of the ruins to try to distract him on the flank. Worked like a charm; one breath from the Hydra dispatched 5 from 7 Pistoliers who promptly legged it, leaving it free to play with an unusually nervy brigade (rather than attempt to box it in and try for a charge, he was content to try to shoot it down with his detachment of only 10 gunners).

Back in the centre, I advanced in a rough wedge, the BG in front to tempt a charge, the spears and corsairs trailing to force him on to the Guard, as the last game where I tried this and advanced in a simple line, he got suspicious and flew into the spearmen instead. (Sidenote - spears really should be able to stop a cavalry charge much better than they currently do. :smallfrown: ). He did still try to avoid the BG, but thanks to the way I'd advanced, no matter how he tried to wheel he would still have clipped them, so he decided to go in anyway. Was also helped by an Irresistible cast of the "Multi RoBI" mentioned above the turn before he charged. !

Still, a Templar Master and the remaining 4 knights can still do some nasty stuff on the charge. Or they would do if I hadn't directed his attention to the ASF banner :smallbiggrin: It was a bit "eggs in one basket" by the Empire though, he fired his knights off relatively unsupported - in fairness, in our last game they did blow through my centre with ridiculous ease (see above). And I could always claim credit for that as my refusal of the left caught him out, I think he was a bit uncertain about taking on a solid-ish wall of infantry from the front without either numbers or much room to attempt the detachment flank charge.

RBT's did what they usually do, was again blessed with luck by knocking off the cannon THROUGH WOUNDS by turn 3, doubly good given that it was behind light cover and could only really be seen by one of them.

Didn't ALL go right, the Cold Ones got horribly chewed up by his Helblaster and a crossbow regiment, but on the brighter side that was fire NOT directed at my infantry... And the surviving Master did get his revenge...

Ash08

2009-06-21, 11:55 PM

hmmm... being bored and following the link so generously provided by Pilum I was struck by the intresting look of the troops and the fact that i'm doing an empire army... and that they(with minor modefications) would work for an Empire army... do you guys think that it might work to use the models to represent Empire troops(scale and all... I highly doubt I'd ever be able to use them in competitive games at GW... but maybe ant my local gamestore...)?

Pilum

2009-06-23, 02:17 PM

If your question is, would they be suitable for the Empire look, then Swiss & Landsknechts and Holy Roman Empire are what the "Empire" is based on! In fact, if anything the GW models are sometimes a bit conservative compared to some actual 16th century costume...

If you mean, would my gamestore let me use them?, you'd have to find out what their policy is on non-GW models, but unless it's an actual GW shop I can't see them having any problems. In my experience you're more likely to get asked, "Cool, where did you get them from?"

The only problem you'd have from a mechanical point of view is that the "spearmen" will actually be carrying pikes and no shield, but then the spears you can always say are long spears :smallwink: and if you have no spare shields or don't want to ruin the look of a model just use the more heavily armoured pikemen, say they're wearing heavy armour (still a 5+ save, after all) and have done with it. OK you'll miss your HW+shield bonus, but only you will know how often you actually use that. Obviously the more exotic troop types will still have to come from GW, but then unless you HAVE to have your Imperial Tank Regiment, wall-to-wall rocket batteries and a legion of mechanical horses then filling those gaps is a bit more manageable on the wallet!

As a side bonus, if you ever want to get into historical gaming, you have a reasonable core of an army there too :smallbiggrin:

BloodyAngel

2009-06-23, 03:45 PM

I play dogs of war. I could actually use pikemen in my force... as pikemen!
I might have to pick myself up some of those guys... once I get money, that is. So at this rate... in several months. :smallsigh:

Achilles

2009-06-23, 04:11 PM

I've been considering getting a lizardmen army. They just seem to have a diversity and balance I really like. What are your opinions on Lizardmen?

BloodyAngel

2009-06-23, 11:09 PM

I've been considering getting a lizardmen army. They just seem to have a diversity and balance I really like. What are your opinions on Lizardmen?

My fiance plays the lizards, and he loves them. They're a very good army that can cover almost any way to play. They have good infantry (Saurus are almost on par with Chaos warriors), cheap core units, flyers, hard hitting cavalry, large monsters, MORE large monsters, and some of the best casters in the game. Also, they just got an update and a new book, so they're riding high right now. Good but pretty balanced. A good army to start with.

My advice would be to get their new army book, and play a few games with either proxies, or someone else's models down at your local store. Nothing sucks more than blowing a few hundred bucks on troops you thought you'd like more than you do. And let us know how it goes! Gotta keep this thread alive somehow. :smallamused:

TheThan

2009-06-24, 12:52 AM

I know what you mean on the money bit.

I’ve only played against lizardmen once. It was just a small 500 point game. I lost but that was because of some VERY bad attack and damage rolls on the part of my ogres. So I can’t really comment on them. Definitely pick up the book and try to get a few games in before you invest into them. I’ve known several people who’ve bought into an army, decided they didn’t like them, and then had to get rid of them in order to recover somewhat from his losses (wasn’t using them, so not earning back their cost).

My bro played against the Lizardmen recently with his Skaven. He spanked the guy so hard he actually shelved the army and is sticking to his wood elf army (it’s the same wood elf player I mentioned in previous posts.

Pilum

2009-06-24, 05:48 PM

I might have to pick myself up some of those guys... once I get money, that is. So at this rate... in several months. :smallsigh:

I know the feeling :smallfrown: I've been thinking of reorganising my Empire for a while now, and as it looks like being a root-and-branch job (plus mine are looking a bit tired) I've been looking for alternative (read: cheaper!) models, and Old Glory happened to have an ad for these guys in a wargames mag a few months ago, which is how I could pull the link up for you. But kids and bills get in the way...

Plus (big breath) I still have to finish the DE, put the finishing touches to an Imperial Roman army for WAB, then there's some WW2 Soviets who have been sat under the bed for about 5 years now, the guys at a club I go to are moving into Age of Sail gaming or mid-to-late medieval warfare, hence also thinking of doubling up my Empire by going HRE, though HYW French appeals - or maybe Mamluk Egyptian...

Eep. Why do we do it to ourselves?

TheThan

2009-06-24, 11:23 PM

Eep. Why do we do it to ourselves?

Been working on that one myself.

Fortunately I don’t have that much in the way of miniatures, but I’m working on it. I’ve heard people complain that this hobby is expensive. I tell them it’s just as expensive as any other hobby and they don’t believe me. :smalleek:

BloodyAngel

2009-06-24, 11:55 PM

Why do people collect things? Why does my cousin have about 30 collectible swords and knives in his room? Why do people buy forty game books when they mostly stick to the same three or four? It's a hobby. All hobbies are expensive. Some more than others, yes. But that thrill of looking over your army. Bought, built and painted by you... it makes them feel like yours. It's an attachment. And for me, I put fluff to all my armies. They each have little stories, of a sort. It's fun and really gets me into the game.

Speaking of... does anyone else here have any fluff or stories about their armies or heroes? Could be a fun thing to talk about. Share some tales and all that. :smallamused:

ImmortalAer

2009-06-25, 12:05 AM

Speaking of... does anyone else here have any fluff or stories about their armies or heroes? Could be a fun thing to talk about. Share some tales and all that. :smallamused:

I have an Assassin. I named him Boots. He's the most useless Assassin ever, having a rate so far of 0 kills, and 3 deaths, all from overrun. :smallsigh:

Erloas

2009-06-25, 09:28 AM

Been working on that one myself.

Fortunately I don’t have that much in the way of miniatures, but I’m working on it. I’ve heard people complain that this hobby is expensive. I tell them it’s just as expensive as any other hobby and they don’t believe me. :smalleek:

Yeah, I think the biggest reason for that is for a lot of people playing Warhammer/40k they aren't really old enough to have many hobbies, or at least take the hobbies to any real level.
I think my last fly fishing pole cost almost as much as my 40k army. Its not even close when I factor in all the other things I "needed" to buy to use it. Just a tank of gas for a boat is the same cost as a full unit and that gas isn't likely to last more then a day.

Yjama

2009-06-25, 11:01 AM

I recently started playing High Elves, and apart from one very rewarding moment, I'm still trying to get a hold on optimal strategies. So far I've only played up to 1000 points with them (starting small), and the unit that I find to be paying off best is my Phoenix Guard block. Hard to kill, nasty Combat Resolution... Although I wish they had a Hand Weapon + Shields instead of those damn halberds. I mean, really, halberds on ASF units make me weep, even if it is for balance.
Sword Masters die too easy. They are -nasty- against low-shooty armies (I'm looking at you, Vampires), and nasty altogether when they get into melee... but they just die so easily from shooting. Any thoughts on how to help with that?
Haven't got a chance to use White Lions yet, but a 5 man Dragon Prince unit payed off pretty well.

On another note, I have a pretty funny story to share... I was playing a 1000-point game against a friend playing Warriors of Chaos, and I was getting my ass handed to me. His Tzeentch sorcerer flew all around on that damn disk, and he had a unit of Knights with an Aspiring Champion that was laying down annoying amounts of hurt.
Anyway, in the end, I had one model left: A single Phoenix Guard; Standard Bearer with a War Banner, or whatever it's called; the one that gives 1 additional CR. He's in combat with the Chaos Knights; my hero has taken his Hero down to 1 Wound.
I go first, declare my attack to be against his hero, roll a WS 5 vs. WS... 6 or 7.
I roll a 6.
Roll a Strength 4 vs. Toughness 4 (Or is it 5?)
I roll another 6.
He rolls armor save.
1
His Hero dies, and his knights strike back, wound twice, my ward save absorbs both hits.
Combat Resolution...
Me: 1 Wound, 1 from banner, another from War Banner = 3
Him: 1 from Banner.
He would auto-break if I had outnumbered him, but as I didn't, he rolls.
10
His poor knights run away from my single Phoenix Guard, don't go very far... and he chases them, running them down into the muck.
It was a very rewarding end, even if the PG got blasted down by his sorcerer in the next round.

Mx.Silver

2009-06-25, 02:53 PM

I recently started playing High Elves, and apart from one very rewarding moment, I'm still trying to get a hold on optimal strategies. So far I've only played up to 1000 points with them (starting small), and the unit that I find to be paying off best is my Phoenix Guard block. Hard to kill, nasty Combat Resolution... Although I wish they had a Hand Weapon + Shields instead of those damn halberds. I mean, really, halberds on ASF units make me weep, even if it is for balance.
1: they have what, a 4+ ward save? They can shrug off cannonballs half the time, if you really think they need more defense than that then I would say that you may want to lower your expectations just a little. Or play Dwarfs.
2: ASF has defensive applications. Each enemy you kill is an enemy who can't hit you, the strength bonus from said halberds is useful in killing more of them.

Sword Masters die too easy. They are -nasty- against low-shooty armies (I'm looking at you, Vampires), and nasty altogether when they get into melee... but they just die so easily from shooting. Any thoughts on how to help with that?
There's a few options. You could try screening them, thereby making them harder to target for archers (shadow warriors are good). Depending on your magic choices, there's a few spells that can help although it can be a bit fickle. The other possibility is to take smaller units, and use them more as flanking/support rather than main combat. This means less investment and makes them less of an obvious target for your opponent.

BloodyAngel

2009-06-25, 10:09 PM

White Lions can be scary too... you should give them a try. They have a 3+ armor save vs. shooting, and hit at Str 6. Ow! Also, they're stubborn and they move through woods without penalty. All in all, I think they're one of the best choices you can make for Asur infantry. Swordmasters are, as you said, dangerous but VERY fragile. Either screen them with an expendable unit in front of them, or only bring them out against armies without a lot of shooting.

A good 1000 point High Elf force would be something in the effect of...

2 units of 10 archers (The only core worth taking, IMO)
15 Pheonix Guard
15 White Lions
2 Bolt Throwers

2 Level 2 Mages, with whatever lores you like.

Then, you bunker up and wait. If the enemy doesn't come at you, he gets hit with magic and shooting galore. If he DOES come at you... he smacks into the infantry blocks HARD. It's not flawless, but it's the best I can come up with without the book at hand.

DranWork

2009-06-25, 10:12 PM

Its funny a lot of the HE's units play a lot liek the DE's units so id play your sword masters like executioners eg either a large unit screened by a small unit of spear men or small units used to counter charge your opponiant. Place them near something like your phenox guard so you have something that can soak a charge then send them into the flanks for an easy kill. Like DE's HE's hit hard but cant take a hit.

As to the other poster talking about witch elves... As a DE player of five years with over a 12 thousand point army now ive never really liked witch elves. Far to situational for my liking. Work great with a CoB but that will make your army very defencive as they have to remain within the range of the CoB to get any benifits after all. I tend to use them if i know my opponant wont have a huge amount of shooting units as they seem to attract arrowy death. Black Guard on the other hand are probs one of my fav units. Hard solid unit that rips in cc and can be used on the offence almost as well on the defence.

Personaly when I play I take more of a "raider" army. Darkriders Shades Corsairs and Xbow men a plenty with a large unit of Executioners and blackguard for my general. Executioners are more for the theme.. gota make examples of the captives after all ;)

BloodyAngel

2009-06-25, 11:22 PM

True, but not. The main difference between high elves and dark elves is cost. Dark elf units are usually cheaper, on account of the lack of ASF. It also means Dark Elf units are worse at taking a charge (usually). Spot on about Executioners though. They have a 5+ armor and great weapons... so are just as fragile as Swordmasters. They only get one swing, but it's highly unlikely to miss, and they have killing blow... so I'd say they're about even.

Alas... most don't use exectutioners much anymore. Or witch elves either, for that matter. Black Guard are the only infantry most Dark Elf players ALL seem to like... and they can replace everyone, which makes me kinda sad. I love the witch elves and the executioners fluff... and personally I still think Executioners have some of the best models in the game! I still use them from time to time.

TheThan

2009-07-01, 08:28 PM

In a couple of weeks here we’re putting on a mighty empires summer campaign and it looks like I’m going to play this one. Apparently it’s going to be an annual deal. Last summer I declined an invitation because there were already too many players as it is, but I’m playing in it this year. Hopefully my ogres will put on a good showing and smash face (that’s what they do best… next to eating that is).

I’m not sure who’s going to play in it. The person putting it on has vampires and recently got some ogres so it should be interesting. I’m expecting at least one warriors of chaos, one lizardmen, and my bro’s dark elves to make an appearance, maybe more depending on who’s going to play. When I get an official list of who’s playing, I’ll let you all know and bring some interesting battle reports along with it.

On a partially related note, I played a game of 40K yesterday against my bro’s dark eldar with some borrowed Tau. I smashed him hard, nearly tabling him. I took out half his deployed force in the first round of shooting alone. By the end of the second turn I had half of his whole army dead and buried. He scored exactly one unit of kroot (assaulted into a unit of wytches they didn’t get a single attack off) and a small squad of stealth suits. We played a second game after that, and I beat him as well, though he did a lot better.

Pilum

2009-07-04, 05:57 PM

Alas... most don't use exectutioners much anymore. Or witch elves either, for that matter. Black Guard are the only infantry most Dark Elf players ALL seem to like... and they can replace everyone, which makes me kinda sad. I love the witch elves and the executioners fluff... and personally I still think Executioners have some of the best models in the game! I still use them from time to time.

I type this as someone who usually goes out of his way to promote 'fluff' over mere cost effectiveness. But if it comes to executioners vs BG it's a no-brainer, as it's clear you've realised too. For the sake of saving 25 points (20 models + command), I gain +2 Str and KB, but lose an attack, lose the extra re-rolls each turn, ASL on any non-charging turn, am subject to fear, terror and panic, have my Ld modified by combat results, can't pick some of the tastier magic banners, cannot upgrade the champion and apart from a pale shadow of former glory (may rant on Tullaris and Kouran another time...) can never be joined by any character apart from a semi-naked nun with PMT. Or a sociopathic ninja, of course, to interrupt any pedants.

Doesn't take much thinking does it? Especially now the 0-1 has gone from the Guard. If I used them it would, frankly, only be as an Imperial-esque detachment to something. Perhaps that's the intent.

Right. Witch Elves. The big problem I have with them, much as I like the idea and can accept they should really have a presence in any DE force for 'fluff' if nothing else... is what do you throw them at? Poisoned to me hints at capability against high-T targets - typically also heavily armoured, which they lack capability in beating, though I acknowledge the AP banner and the thinking that "he's got to fail SOME saves from 10 dice!" The sheer number of attack dice points to carving through hordes, but this seems a waste of a Special slot when there is another unit that is almost as good at that job, costs the same, can stand up to missile fire rather better on the way in and is also, importantly, Core. Many of the lists I see for DE take COK's and Shades almost as compulsory elements, so Special slots are at a premium here. And assuming we're still looking at either/or with regard to WE & BG, then even though the points saving is much more (you could squeeze in 2 smallish units w/command for 1 x 20 BG - though of course small will have to work harder at penetrating a line, which the enhanced manouevrability and threat-causing may not entirely compensate for) and the Khainite drawback not so pronounced, many of the 'pluses' to the BG above still apply.

That turned out rather longer than expected. Had hoped to pin a battle report on but far too long. May do so later.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-08, 01:04 AM

Witch elves have a use, and a very, very good one. Hordes. Send a block of witches at a mob of goblins, human infantry, pretty much ANYTHING that has mediocre stats and/or armor, and tends to win fights on numbers alone... and they tear things apart. I've used them well against my empire opponent, and he rightfully fears them. Especially because they don't panic from shooting, and he plays a shooting-heavy army. I had a unit of witches rip apart a like-sized unit of greatswords WITH a magic banner (a war banner, I believe) and a detachment of halberdiers flanking. They just did sooo many attacks that they carved both units apart. The halberds fled first turn... the greatswords got slain to a man on the third turn of the fight. The witches then rolled into the shooting units in the back and ate them alive. I love my witches.

The problem is, like executioners, they're situational. If you opponent is playing chaos, there's less use for them, unless he fields marauders and lots of. They can't deal with armor, unless you have a cauldron backing them up (sometimes not even then). Likewise with executioners, who do well against armored sorts, but falter against hordes. I believe the idea was that both units were expected to be used with a cauldron almost always... and they do work well with one, save that neither can afford to lose a round of combat (witches lose frenzy... execs strike last) so stubborn means little, and any blessing that they could use, the black guard can use just as well, or better. It was a design oversight at GW, because anyone knows that if you're picking anything to bring along... you bring the thing that is most useful in the most situations... not EXTREMELY useful in one situation, and a liability in others. Just my two cents on the issue.

Pilum

2009-07-08, 06:20 PM

I agree on the situational aspect, which is why I brought up the corsairs. Extra attacks are always welcome and having lizzies in my circle of enemies means I know how annoying Poison can be - but the fact remains that Witches are naked for the same cost as guys with 'normal' attacks but a 4+ save on the way in. March into a gunline or a magic-missile heavy force and at least the corsairs have a chance of making it - and I have woodies and Empire as reasonably regular opponents. Still keep wanting to try them though! :smallsmile: Funny you should mention Chaos, that was the battle report I mentioned, featuring Frenzied corsairs ripping a fair-sized unit of Warriors aport through sheer weight of dice (and Transmutation of Lead helped too :smallwink:)

Personally I get the impression that as far as the book is concerned you either go heavy - and I mean HEAVY - Khainite (i.e. Hellebron, enough cauldrons to feed the 5,000 and more naked flesh than even the Internet can provide!) or you don't really bother with them.

To go off-topic a little, saving throws are one reason why I stopped my Guard army in 40k. It just got so depressing (not quite the right word, but...) doing nothing in my opponent's turn but remove models. I was to all intents and purposes a mere spectator for half the game (evidence of poor design, IMO), unless I was playing orks or another Guard army. There were other reasons of course, some valid complaints, some less so with hindsight, but that one can't be denied. Still, the army wasn't completely worthless - not on the bring and buy! :smallbiggrin:

BloodyAngel

2009-07-08, 08:32 PM

The perks Witches have over corsairs is thus... they have frenzy for free, as it were... so they can get a different magic banner if they choose and up their killyness. They also have poison, which can be nice against the right foes. Otherwise, yeah... corsairs are nice. (Though personally, I rarely use them)

Against most of the people I play, the armor save vs shooting doesn't help so much. Against guns, having a mere 6+ save isn't as useful as poison for when I DO reach them. Corsairs are great against low-strength shooting, like archers or the like... but very, very few armies use those sorts of troops for anything other than... well, for anything. Shooting is either done full-bore, or barely at all... and so for me, the extra save is rarely worth it compared to the much cheaper spearmen, who have a better save in close combat (if I use hand weapons) and are likely to have more CR.

Erloas

2009-07-10, 10:35 AM

Unfortunately I haven't got to play my DE more then a few times since the revision, and even then it was just small games. So I also haven't invested in any new models (well I picked up the COKs just before the price raise because they are just so much better looking now) and the Black Guard weren't all that practical before.

That being said, I always liked the witches and almost always took them over the executioners. I had several ways of dealing high strength hits without the executioners, but it was hard to find a match for the WEs. Even with the corsairs attacks, the lack of poison made them considerably less effective.

While the WEs do die to ranged very easily, that is the point of screening, which is usually what the corsairs would do.

It kind of sucks that WEs lost their WS5, but thats not too much of an issue against most things they are going to be killing. And the hatred does increase the chance of poisons going off.
The BG seem like a much better all around choice for elite infantry, but considering that DE are very much specialized I don't know if that is a real advantage or not. They are simply not going to handle the high armor/T units like executioners are and the WEs are still going to be better at taking out large groups. Considering that so much shooting and magic will negate heavy armor, I never really found the survivability of Executioners (or BG seeing as how they are going to be the same in that respect) to be that much better then WEs. They might get a save, but a 5+ save isn't going to be changing the outcome of most shooting or combats. At least in combat the WEs have the survivability that comes from the fact that there is no one left alive to try to hit you back. As long as you aren't hitting heavy calvary you should be fine.

I really wish I could get some more fantasy games in, but right now its 40k or nothing.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-10, 03:22 PM

The perks BG have over execs is stubborn, Immune to Psyche, and hatred EVERY round, rather than just the first... along with not automatically striking last on second rounds, instead striking on their impressive init of 6. All for one point more than execs. Then, there's the fact that you can't add a normal hero to an exec unit, and the fact that BG can take the ASF banner without a hero to hold it... and you can see why they win out most of the time. They're just all-around good.

I'm not saying the executioners shouldn't be used. I love them, and they have some of the best models in the game, IMO... but they got the shaft. Now if they cost 10 points per model like witches, I could see more people using them more often. As it is, BG just laugh at them. They have staying power not based on their heavy armor... which is all too easy to ignore, but based on being stubborn on Ld 9, and immune to psychology. They'll take losses, but they won't run. And it usually only takes a turn or so to hold the enemy until you can bring in flankers or the like. Black Guard are one of the few units DE have that can take a charge. If they have the ASF banner, they might not even take too many losses, either.

I miss my execs, but even I have to admit, BG are just, plain better. What I don't agree with is the reasoning behind it. GW tends to bump up the rules of any model that wasn't selling well, usually due to it being underpowered. In a few years when the next edition comes out... expect to see all the stuff that wasn't considered good for THIS edition to become awesome. Nature of the game, and all.

Mx.Silver

2009-07-10, 04:34 PM

I miss my execs, but even I have to admit, BG are just, plain better. What I don't agree with is the reasoning behind it. GW tends to bump up the rules of any model that wasn't selling well, usually due to it being underpowered. In a few years when the next edition comes out... expect to see all the stuff that wasn't considered good for THIS edition to become awesome. Nature of the game, and all.

Aye, it's a shame really. They don't seem to be able to hit that golden middle ground. It's probably a case of listening to the volume of complaints rather than the issues being raised. Daemons probably show it best this edition (going from one of the weakest armies available to what is now accused by many of being overpowered.) If you a want a more long term trend then I'd point to High Elves who went from being very strong in 5th ed to pretty poor in 6th (I recall comments to the effect that Ravening Hordes gave them a more balanced list than their army book) and now back in the higher end of the scale again in 7th.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-11, 05:00 PM

Dark elves were the same way. They were good in 5th, pretty terrible in 6th, and they're now a top-tier army. I miss being the underdog so much, I've lately taken to playing Dogs of War pretty frequently. It used to be only the rare few who played Dark elves, now there's five or six people at every game store. While I'm glad my favorite army got good, it is a bit depressing now to hear people complain about how buff we are. I've been playing Druchii since the days of witch elves with frizzed out 80's hair, when only Melekith rode a chariot, and when executioners did d3 wounds per swing. Ahhh... good times. :smalltongue:

Cracklord

2009-07-11, 05:12 PM

Dwarves have stopped being so much fun.
I miss the old days.

Dr. Bath

2009-07-11, 05:29 PM

Dwarves have stopped being so much fun.
I miss the old days.

It's true. Although organ guns are now totally awesome. It's a pity I pretty much have to take a gunline army to face off against DE or HE though (or you know, VC or DoC obviously).

BloodyAngel

2009-07-11, 10:29 PM

It's true. Although organ guns are now totally awesome. It's a pity I pretty much have to take a gunline army to face off against DE or HE though (or you know, VC or DoC obviously).

No offense hun, but you play dwarves. Guns are required. Even a dwarven army with "light" shooting still has more than most. Dwarves are just too slow to close combat unless you're REALLY good... and they have no spells. It's the main reason I'd never consider playing them. To me, they feel a lot like a one-trick army.

Mx.Silver

2009-07-12, 03:56 AM

No offense hun, but you play dwarves. Guns are required. Even a dwarven army with "light" shooting still has more than most. Dwarves are just too slow to close combat unless you're REALLY good... and they have no spells. It's the main reason I'd never consider playing them. To me, they feel a lot like a one-trick army.

They're more a defensive army yes (although Gav Thorpe actually runs an all-melee dwarf army, which apparrently works) but that isn't the same as a gunline. Gunline is essential a complete max-out of blckpowder war machines and handguns wherein the 'stratagey' boils down to "shoot everything that moves then shoot it again". Empire can and does do this is well. It is neither much to fun to play with or against.

With a standard defensive force you also have a decent focus on infantry (and dwarf infantry is very good, usually tough enough to take a charge), characters (very customisable) and the less orthodox units such as miners, girocopters and rangers. Such balanced forces may also field crossbows, in fact I've met a few dwarf players who didn't use blackpowder at all. That was back in 6th though, I effectively dropped out of the hobby shortly after 7th edition came out due to issues of freetime and cost.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-12, 04:04 AM

Dr. Bath

2009-07-12, 07:47 AM

I know what a gunline is. What I meant was, dwarf forces on average, use more shooting than most. A dwarven list with NO shooting or warmachines would be crazy hard. In fact... I can't imagine how it would be done!

Really though, I've never really liked the dwarf army. To each his own, but I think their gunners are a bit underpriced. For a good 2 or so more points than an empire gunner, they get 4 toughness, 9 leadership, better armor, and a bonus to hit. Seems a bit off to me. Maybe empire gunners are just too expensive?

Thunderers are 5 (or 6? if you take a sheild) points more. They are actually pretty balanced against empire gunners. Normally I don't go for gunlines (although I do luff my warmachines) but when facing an entire army that ASF or two hydras and a dragon (and that freakin' strength test ward save amulet), if I don't have many guns, I just die. Just. Die. Dwarf infantry is supposed to be tough, so why can't they stay in combat with elves for a turn? Stupid swordsmasters. Stupid Hag Graf Black Guard. Stupid hydra. Although next match I'm bringing out my anvil and infantry to try something different.

Mx.Silver

2009-07-12, 08:25 AM

Thunderers are 5 (or 6? if you take a sheild) points more. They are actually pretty balanced against empire gunners. Normally I don't go for gunlines (although I do luff my warmachines) but when facing an entire army that ASF or two hydras and a dragon (and that freakin' strength test ward save amulet), if I don't have many guns, I just die. Just. Die. Dwarf infantry is supposed to be tough, so why can't they stay in combat with elves for a turn? Stupid swordsmasters. Stupid Hag Graf Black Guard. Stupid hydra. Although next match I'm bringing out my anvil and infantry to try something different.

Given that Dwarfs have I2 and M3 I wouldn't have thought being up against ASF would be that big a deal :smalltongue:

But yeah, the elves have been rather overcompensated with 7th; DE probably moreso, given that a substantial number of people put them on a level with VC and DoC. I was a high elf player back in 6th and I felt giving all of them ASF was a little too much, as was including the Star Dragon.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-12, 08:29 AM

I could have sword thunderers were 10 a piece. And I KNOW empire gunners are 8. Ah well... could be my mistake.

As for the killyness of elves... well... Yeah. Dark elves are good at killing things. I can't see a dwarven unit caring much about a unit of corsairs or witches... but black guard are another thing. (Then again, I think they got a little TOO good, while my poor executioners and witches got the shaft. :smallfrown:) ASF isn't a huge perk, as dwarves are used to going after their foes. Aren't they Init 2? Even on second rounds, they go after nearly everything out there anyway... ASF shouldn't really be that big a concern. Hatred might be, as Dark elf troops rarely miss.

What every dwarven army I've ever seen does is bunker up tight, usually near a hill... and shoot the crap out of everything that comes at them. The survivors are usually not enough to break the dwarf infantry units (who win by numbers and denying kills... not getting kills). The losers then flee... the dwarves avoid pursuit... and resume shooting them. While I'm certain they can be played another way, I've not seen it from the four dwarf players I know. The warmachines and infantry types are slightly different, but the tactic is the same every time. It's why I'd never want to play them. It feels like your wins or losses all come down to rolling well enough on the shooting, not a strategy or the like... because aside from making sure they deploy right... there's not much of one.

Dwarves ignore two of the four phases of the game... magic, and to a huge extent, movement. It means they're easy to pick up, but learning to play a dwarf army, then switching to another can be really, really rough. A friend of mine switched from dwarves to Daemons... universally considered and AMAZING army right now. (If not supremely cheesed) He had a real tough time with it, as he'd never really learned to use magic, or set up to attack. I ended up steering him towards a nurgle/tzeentch spell-bunker, because I felt bad that he kept losing.

I'm not trying to poo your army. In fact, I don't mind playing against dwarves in the least. I just don't see how there's much to do with them. I also know a few people who see them and refuse to play, because of how often dwarves are usually played as gunlines, which many people consider very little fun to play against. Then again... lately people have been getting all snippy about dark elves, no matter how you play them, so it takes all kinds. It's also why I've switched to Dogs of War. NO ONE will give you crap for playing them. It's hard to call cheese on an army list that doesn't have it's own magic items. :smallbiggrin:

Dr. Bath

2009-07-12, 08:35 AM

The reason I complain is that it means that my hammer of flank charging individuals still don't get to do anything, die and I lose two units to a single one that is almost cheaper than mine. That and when I do finally get a charge it still does nothing. Pah pah. :smalltongue:

Thunderers are 15 points. It's kinda scary really. :smalleek:

Well you obviously play a lot of dull dwarf players. :smalltongue: I don't like playing a gunline, and don't so long as my opponent doesn't go for a cheesed out DE or HE army. I prefer using an anvil to suddenly make my army maneuverable. That tends to scare people.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-12, 08:40 AM

A fair point. I'll give it to you. Though I know plenty of HE players who have issues with their army being delicate as springtime flowers. If you ever want a fun time... switch armies with an opponent you think is really tough, and see how much more you appreciate the flaws of the army he's been playing.

Coincidentally, it also gives you a better idea how to fight against them next time.. and for me, at least... it's fun to try new things. I've swapped my Dark elves to people who complain about their amazingness... (It's a real word, damn it!) and beat them with the lists they just lost to mine with... because no one knows your army's weakness better than you. One of my friends in particular was shocked at how easily the elves died to such lousy troops as bretonnian bowmen.

Pilum

2009-07-14, 10:21 AM

I sympathise on the HE front. One old opponent used to run an army best summarised as Teclis' personal guard and while it was beatable the charging thing - to say nothing of the magic - got very dull after a while. Plus I refuse to believe that even the most graceful elf peasant, taken from his fields and given a spear to hold off a shipload of rabid corsairs, is quicker on the draw than (for instance) a Bloodthirster. That's before getting into the logical arguments of why the Dark Elves have apparently got slower while living in a harsher environment, the Wood Elves even more so.

I can accept ASF on a character's magic weapon, or even a banner, which equates to only one unit after all. It feels wrong to have it as an army-wide special rule, even if through a paid upgrade as with Slaaneshi daemons (a sore point, due to surrounded daemonettes - hit on the front and both flanks - which ended up chewing through all my troops courtesy of some admittedly good dice and losing me the game in that one turn :smallfurious: ). It is a crutch - I will admit it as such with my BG, and that it seems to be spreading is a sad sign of the ever-denied "codex-creep" in the current edition.

Speaking of crutches, quite amusing to see a once-lethal Count complain about his casualty levels since turning to Chaos. Having to actually consider what the opposing army can do instead of merely wondering how many Raise Dead spells he'll need in the next magic phase seems to be a real hurdle :smallwink: Losing "Outnumbered-by-fear-causing-enemy" autobreak has proved a real culture shock too.

Incidentally, I can see a pure-melee dwarf army. Heavy armour, hand weapon-and-shield all over the place with a few great weapons to taste, the right runic banners, slayers... oh yes, in the right hands that could be brutal. Slow and would have to watch the flanks like a hawk (possibly negated through the judicious use of miners), but brutal. Not what the list is designed around and would have its weaknesses accordingly, but would be a blast to try!

Oh, and the witches? I've decided I'll proxy the Corsairs as them in my next few games - see what sort of a difference it makes. Certainly missile fire hasn't proved a major factor recently - though admittedly that IS playing Chaos, magic-melee-and-monster Tomb Kings (he never really has realised the value of their archery...) and saurus/dinosaur lizards recently. Against HE, I can see them returning to piracy, but for now I'll let you know how they get on (this does, of course, mean that 'to hit' rolls of 6 will be but a memory! :smallbiggrin:)

BloodyAngel

2009-07-14, 01:06 PM

The problem with melee dwarves isn't that they're bad in melee... far from. The problem is, they're so slow that they have trouble picking their fights. Almost any enemy can just avoid them until they're set up in a way to favor the non-stunties. Also, they're slow enough to make flanking hard... and expensive enough that they can't flood the board with troops to ensure it... or lay down a lot of screens. It's difficult. Do-able, but rough.

And yeah, high elves and their ASF was a very, very poorly thought out idea that a lot of people are miffed over. Even a lot of HE players. It's not THAT hard to get around if you know you're facing it... and it makes them kind of a one trick pony. Also, the last edition had HE as a very cav-heavy army. They were the elven knights on barded steeds... racing across the battlefield looking heroic. The new edition switched them to favor infantry... making a lot of HE players all-cav armies a waste (and illegal, as they got a bit more expensive to justify ASF). Cav with ASF are... still boned if they're charged. Without the lance bonus, they're probably doomed. ASF means little for them. They paid extra for it anyway. And all because GW had trouble selling the old HE infantry. Almost everyone agrees the Dark elves got a much better update that was thought through far better.

I wouldn't really speak ill of the vampire counts though. Fear-outnumber is still ALMOST an autobreak. Snake-eyes is all that'll save you. And they can spam magic for days. They're one of my most despised armies, in fact... though a lot of that has to do with the person I knew who played them was the twinkiest powergamer I've ever known... who borderline cheated at times because losing was anathma to him. The only army they really have trouble with seems to be daemons... and they're not exactly in the "Fair and balanced" department either. :smallsigh:

Woot Spitum

2009-07-14, 01:46 PM

When facing the Vampire Counts, what size of battle do you usually end up fighting? My brother plays VC, and things are typically more difficult for him when he fights battles under 2000 points.

TheThan

2009-07-14, 02:04 PM

The size of the game really does matter a lot. Playing smaller games mean you can’t twink and min max your force. You have to make sacrifices and just can’t bring all the zany cool stuff you would normally. However there are some armies that can exile at small battles. My bro has a borderline broken skaven list at I think 500 points.

But then again bliz usually plays pretty ballzy. We were playing a legendary battle it was my ogres with dwarves, versus VC and his skaven. He cracked 13 warpstone tokens for casting one spell (dwarf anti-magic). The VC player just cringed as he did this. But blitz pulled it off with no miscast and blasticated some dwarf thingy.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-14, 02:09 PM

VC are scariest at 2000 or more... but any force they field with heavy magic is insane. Spamming a Raise Dead spell per power die, and hitting you with an extra three or four bound spells is insane, and it's the sort of list the guy I knew used EVERY time. Nothing would stay dead for more than a turn, unless you utterly wiped the unit in one shot, and unless you went just as magic heavy (most don't) you would never stop his spells. He cast nothing but Raise Dead and the Dance Macabre, and steam rolled people with a combination of powergaming, ruthless rules lawyers, and just plain unsportsmanlike conduct.

A fair VC list at 1500 probably isn't that bad... but as he's the only VC player I know... I've never seen one. :smallsigh:

Rustic Dude

2009-07-14, 03:28 PM

, ruthless rules lawyers, and just plain unsportsmanlike conduct.

Quoted for truth.

Those players are annoying as hell. Every time the Wood Elves player I play with does his rules-moving forest yadda yadda spell, I rage.

Pilum

2009-07-14, 03:59 PM

Aye, VC are ... challenging. Especially the list Mr. X uses. Pulled it off the internet, uses a couple of special characters, an upgraded 'normal' vamp, a token necro and then all sorts of nasty magic choices. And that's what wins just about every time. Remember the criticism of "Herohammer" and certain 40k HQ units, that they were just Hero Delivery Systems? That's exactly how it feels when I play that list. Skellies? Ghouls? Not really a problem. Even the Tomb Guard? Hmmm, takes a bit more effort but they do die... The vamps... Difficult. Rip through troops and seem to have a reasonable chance of offing even a heavily-kitted out character while barely breaking a sweat. Doesn't help that he picks his 2000 points and then can add more by simply spamming zombies.

And it's only VC. TK are reasonable - granted, the Pharoah I usually face now is ... learning (to be kind) but while their magic is well known to be relentless, their monsters nasty and invariably behind you (It Came From Below has lost me more games than I care to admit) and their characters and upgrades very capable, they are beatable. And even losing, I have an enjoyable game. I'm not sure I've ever really enjoyed a game against the new vamps, even on the rare occasions I scrape a win.

Sad to say, seems that the vamps may be coming back (how fitting!), as whenever his Chaos Warriors take a beating (which is often recently) all one hears are the unfavourable comparisons to the vamps - unfair, because while I may not know much about the new CW, I can tell by the 'feel' his list is nowhere near as optimised as the VC. Strangely when I used to play with my Empire, the earlier version tended to leave unpleasant stains where my lines used to be, so I'm not certain what's gone wrong, especially as it's not just against my DE.

On the other hand, I do admit my current DE list is strong, and internet inspired (not written, just taken the odd pointer and accepted some viewpoints) though a tournament player would probably throw their hands up in horror at it, but I like to think that it gives a good game and, of course, while I will admit to the occasional bit of lawyering, having a good 'debrief' in the pub and a willing opponent next week is far better than another notch in the W column and an atmosphere you could cut with a knife.

Mx.Silver

2009-07-14, 04:35 PM

Also, the last edition had HE as a very cav-heavy army. They were the elven knights on barded steeds... racing across the battlefield looking heroic. The new edition switched them to favor infantry... making a lot of HE players all-cav armies a waste (and illegal, as they got a bit more expensive to justify ASF). Cav with ASF are... still boned if they're charged. Without the lance bonus, they're probably doomed. ASF means little for them. They paid extra for it anyway. And all because GW had trouble selling the old HE infantry.
Oh don't even get me started on that. Moving silver helms to special choices was easily the most asinine thing in that book. All-cav armies tended to get used a lot a because High Elf infantry (which is supposed to be the bulk of most HE fluffwise) was over costed and under-effective. Now nobody uses Silver Helms at all.

Almost everyone agrees the Dark elves got a much better update that was thought through far better.
I think the DE may well be in with a shot at winning biggest power increase in Warhammer edition change history if the online warhammer communities are to be believed (assuming you count the Daemonic Legion list from storm of chaos).

Sad to say, seems that the vamps may be coming back (how fitting!), as whenever his Chaos Warriors take a beating (which is often recently) all one hears are the unfavourable comparisons to the vamps - unfair, because while I may not know much about the new CW, I can tell by the 'feel' his list is nowhere near as optimised as the VC. Strangely when I used to play with my Empire, the earlier version tended to leave unpleasant stains where my lines used to be, so I'm not certain what's gone wrong, especially as it's not just against my DE.
Mortal Chaos is actually regarded as being less powerful now than they were in 6th. VC however recieved power-creepage, which is weird when you consider they already pretty strong as it was back in 6th (when it was a shining example of the Cavatore effect).

Woot Spitum

2009-07-14, 05:26 PM

Quoted for truth.

Those players are annoying as hell. Every time the Wood Elves player I play with does his rules-moving forest yadda yadda spell, I rage.You mean Treesinging? Yeah, that's a fun spell, especially when using Calaingor's Staff to increase the distance moved.:smallamused:

There are a few things to remember about it though. First, it cannot be used to move any forest containing hostile troops, not even if they are only partially in the woods. Second, it cannot actually move a forest onto enemy units, as the spell description clearly states that the forest stops moving if it comes into contact with an enemy unit or another terrain piece. Third, while it can move a forest containing friendly units (moving the units along with the forest) if any friendly unit is only partially in the forest, the spell can't be used on that particular forest. Finally, the forest affected must be within 18" of the caster.

If your opponent forgets any of these rules (or never read them carefully in the first place) then the spell may end up seeming stronger than it really is.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-14, 06:55 PM

Yep. VC became insane. Daemons are somehow MORE insane (If barely... personally, I think those two are the big overpowered armies to date) and Dark elves got a hefty boost in power. Though to be fair, they were way behind before that. They're quite good now, able to scrap with the best of them... and a very good DE player can beat a mediocre or unlucky Daemon or VC player. HE just got their book slapped together quickly and it shows. They're not bad, but... they could have been so much better. Also, giving the WHOLE force ASF just makes all their units feel less unique. They're way too expensive per model to play heavy infantry anywho. I actually have respect for a good HE player. They've got it rougher than you think.

Really, my regards for an army is based on how fun they are to play... AND play against. I like DE, obviously... as well as Empire, Greenskins, Ogres, Bretonnia, Mortal Chaos, and Dogs of War, High Elves, and Lizardmen. VC and Daemons are overpowered... Dwarves I rarely have fun playing, as it's usually a contest of dice rolling rather than strategy, and Skaven... I've never seen anyone play, but I've heard they're terrible unless they use their shooty army of cheese, in which case, they're potent but heavily luck-based. I'll play against anyone, using anything... but I most enjoy friendly games where I can play fluffy armies over "Win at all costs" games, where I have to cheese my army out and tailor it to my enemy to have a chance. (Which you pretty much HAVE to do to stand a chance at beating VC or Daemons)

It's a pity there's no easy way to play warhammer online. We've got enough people here that we could get a little GitP warhammer club going, and maybe play some tournaments or whatnot.

TheThan

2009-07-14, 11:24 PM

My bro plays DE and skaven. Honestly his scaven are much scarier than his DE.

Skaven have huge advantages and huge disadvantages.
No armor, little in the way of high strength weaponry and very poor leadership are their disadvantages. Their advantages are very powerful but sporadic magic and artillery, and very cheep troops. Blitz has wiped out a whole Empire army off of one pestilence spell before (I think it was like second turn too). But I once scared half of Blitz’s (that’s my bro) army off the table with the first ogre bull charge of the game.

The trick is to remember your troops are expendable, you may loose a lot of them, but you have so many that you can afford to loose a few. Also you have to accept that you will eventually lose your artillery and magic, the trick here is to not get greedy and you’ll keep them longer.

Skaven do have some cheese (hehe), like the rattling gun still has automatic hits tied to it. Which tears me up really bad. A good skaven player can go toe to toe with any army, even the cheezed out tournament lists, though he may have to play his tail end off (again with the puns!) to pull victories.

Pilum

2009-07-15, 11:20 AM

Mortal Chaos is actually regarded as being less powerful now than they were in 6th.

Ah, didn't mean "the list" as in the book, just that his personal list isn't as 'tuned' as his VC - though equally I know that he chose it himself rather than go to tournamentcheese.com (wouldn't surprise me if that site actually existed...) so it's not been refined to the nth degree. But there are no real differences between what he runs now and what he did when I last played him with Empire, which MAY have been previous edition, can't remember, so either DE have just got THAT good (believable, listening to the online howls), his expansion choices from 1000/1500 to 2000 pts have been poor ones (possible) or elves are just that much better than humans, even ones with cannon (pretty definite actually :smallbiggrin:) Actually that last point isn't so flippant, he runs Nurgle, and the difference between ending up with an effective WS/BS2 as compared to 3 courtesy of Cloud of Flies is enormous.

Always liked the idea of rats, sadly my wallet didn't. Plus it's bad enough painting lots of green armour - brown fur with dirty brown clothing and rusty brown swords would drive me loopy (which also explains why the Sovs have sat under my bed for 5 years now :smalltongue:)

BloodyAngel

2009-07-15, 12:56 PM

Nurgle is easily the most potent of mortal chaos now. Between the -1 to hit them from the mark, and the first spell of the Lore of Nurgle being a no-save character sniper... well... yeah. They're not invincible, but it's the best mark out there now. As nurgle was the worst in the last edition, it's kind of ironic. Normally, I'd say it's GW trying to sell those old models no one used, but there weren't as many nurgle-specific models for mortals.

Dark Elves did get much better, going from a bottom-tier army to a top tier army overnight. They're not really any better than the other new armies out there (I'd say still not as powerful as VC and Daemons, but that's just opinion). I think it's only so noticeable because they used to be pretty bad before, so it was more of a jump. The biggest perk they got was hatred, so Dark Elves rarely miss... other than that, their troops got a bit better. Much better for, say... Black Guard and the Hydra. I think the reason for a lot of complaints lately is that now there are LOTS of people playing DE, when it used to just be a handful of die-hard fans. That part annoys me a bit too, as now I get flak for "following a trend" when I've been playing DE since 5th ed. Saaaaaad panda. :smallsigh:

Rustic Dude

2009-07-15, 01:05 PM

You mean Treesinging? Yeah, that's a fun spell, especially when using Calaingor's Staff to increase the distance moved.:smallamused:

There are a few things to remember about it though. First, it cannot be used to move any forest containing hostile troops, not even if they are only partially in the woods. Second, it cannot actually move a forest onto enemy units, as the spell description clearly states that the forest stops moving if it comes into contact with an enemy unit or another terrain piece. Third, while it can move a forest containing friendly units (moving the units along with the forest) if any friendly unit is only partially in the forest, the spell can't be used on that particular forest. Finally, the forest affected must be within 18" of the caster.

If your opponent forgets any of these rules (or never read them carefully in the first place) then the spell may end up seeming stronger than it really is.

Well, it's more like bending the rules. You know, the "I've got the forest. With Forestals inside. I move it. Your soldiers cant shoot the forestals, but they can so, tough luck, and bla, bla, bla" "You should target your cannon manually". Hardcore Rules Lawyering.

Then, you can make two things

a)Leave the game.

b)Continue playing, hoping your tactics will balance that mess somewhat.

It's a shame there are so few Warhammer players in my city.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-16, 03:39 PM

Tree-singing isn't that bad, really. It doesn't move the woods far, if I recall, and it can't move the woods over a unit. The way my group always interpreted the Line of Sight rules was this.

If you're more than 2" into a woods, you can't be seen... nor can you see out to charge/fire.

This means if they move the woods up against your unit, they still can't charge your unit in one shot, unless they were already at the edge and within "I can shoot them" territory. Granted, shooting is hard with the bonuses from cover... but it can be done. Or you can just use magic. Wood elves hate magic. Magic missiles don't roll to hit, so cover means nothing, and trees are quite flammable.

Anyone who's shoving woods at you and getting charges that way is doing something wrong.

Pilum

2009-07-16, 05:50 PM

Wood elves hate magic. Magic missiles don't roll to hit, so cover means nothing, and trees are quite flammable.

And it's been a while since I played them, but aren't they one of the few, possibly only, army that has most of it's Wards negated by magic, the way daemons used to way back when? At least, I'm sure Dryads (and possibly Treemen?) do, really annoyed him when we noticed that; every subsequent game for the first few turns his dryads were walking through magical machine-gun fire :smallwink:

Bloody Angel's got it right on LOS. There are no 'spotting' rules in Warhammer other than the simplest - if you can see out, you can be seen. OK, it's going to generally be a waste of time (-2 minimum to hit usually) but they can be shot at. Although now I think about it, I know they generally ignore move penalties, there's a little bell ringing at the back of my mind - do they get an increased "see through woods" distance too?

I found for woodies, if you want to REALLY hack them off, go for things that don't need to roll to hit. Dwarfs can do worse than load up on Organ guns, maybe even flame cannon. Empire, Mortars or Rockets (and a moment's silence for the HVG, once dearly beloved of this parish :smallfrown:).

As stated, magic helps (Lore of Life could be particularly amusing if you score multiple Master of the Woods, doubly so with Howler Wind. I don't THINK they're immune to it), but can be stopped. So, if you can, snipe his wizards, in fact characters in general. Now, this is where we enter "he who lives by the sword..." territory - he wants to Rules Lawyer, do it right back. He wants you to manually aim the cannon, do it. Right down their magical throats. Even if in a unit. Ask him to point out the page where it disallows cannon sniping, and when he can't, pray he rolls a 1 on Look Out Sir. In fact, I'd say the rules implicitly encourage it - check out p.90, para.4 of the rulebook. Bolt Throwers EXPLICITLY states that:

if the target is a unit of five or more ranked up models the bolt will always strike a regular trooper...
There is no such paragraph in the cannon rules. And that to me says that cannon sniping is seen as fair game, Wellington's famous quote notwithstanding. Indeed, the Look Out Sir rule (p.74, para.7) even mentions cannon doing this. Also mentions that BS-rolling weapons don't do this, so sadly even if in a skirmishing unit you can't use the above to bolt-snipe. Ok, not fair, and I emphasise I do not do this. Usually. But if one wants to play by the letter rather than the spirit...

I can't remember if you were the one who mentioned dwarfs, Rustic, but for some reason I have the impression you're dwarf. If so and you REALLY want to make his day a complete misery, do the nastiest thing I ever saw someone do to WE - Thorek Ironbrow, on his Anvil, banging out the "half-move-and-d6-S4-hits" rune on full power all day long; it's "cast" in the shooting phase so can't be dispelled, and nothing we could find about Anvils said they *need* LOS so it spent the entire game untouchable behind a hill. If you can keep that going, it will kill the game stone dead. Can't see how it would be terribly interesting to play WITH, mind you, but it will do the job.

Mx.Silver

2009-07-16, 06:10 PM

If so and you REALLY want to make his day a complete misery, do the nastiest thing I ever saw someone do to WE - Thorek Ironbrow, on his Anvil, banging out the "half-move-and-d6-S4-hits" rune on full power all day long; it's "cast" in the shooting phase so can't be dispelled, and nothing we could find about Anvils said they *need* LOS so it spent the entire game untouchable behind a hill. If you can keep that going, it will kill the game stone dead. Can't see how it would be terribly interesting to play WITH, mind you, but it will do the job.

And this is why you should think really carefully before deciding to play games with special characters :smalltongue:

Pilum

2009-07-16, 07:33 PM

:smallsmile: True. Personally I don't take them, usually. There are generally far better uses for those points! I will confess to the occasional Malus Darkblade, partly to get controllable cold ones, partly looking for an answer to those thrice-damned VC (aka the Von Carstein Family Outing :smallfurious:), but mainly because I needed to bump my points up at the time! Though if it's in the book as a valid option, I can't complain too much if it gets used. Question the sanity of the playtesters and rulewriters, yes, but not the guy who's picked what they've given him...

That said, I think it's actually a standard rune - Thorek's only benefit is he "Total Power's" a bit easier. Could be wrong here and probably am, been a long time since I read the dwarf book.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-16, 08:47 PM

Thorek and his doom-anvil are usually considered a 12 cheese pizza with extra gouda. Someone even showing up with him at my old game shop earned them the other player walking away from the table saying "Good win, I'm going to play someone else" before a single model was moved. Granted, my store was very harsh on MOST special characters. I don't like them much either, really. They're either overpriced and weaker than a create-a-hero, or so disgustingly good that it's irritating. I never use them.

Also, yes. Cannon-sniping is difficult and highly luck-based (A 1 in 6 chance IF you get the aim right), but legal. Provided you can see the character in question, you can aim at him. If he's hidden in a wood, with part of his unit visible, I'd call that unfair to aim into the woods "just in case" a leader is there... but aiming for a hero in the front of a unit you can clearly see is a tried and true thing that I'm used to. It's one of the perks of the cannon-using armies. I do it with my Dogs of War on occasion. While it IS a little absurd to have a cannon ball fly across hundreds of yards of terrain and snag a single alter-kindred wood elf who's just sitting there, it's legal and I accept it.

And yeah, wood elves hate fire. None of the trees get their ward saves against flaming attacks. Have fun! :smallbiggrin:

Woot Spitum

2009-07-17, 09:13 PM

Well, it's more like bending the rules. You know, the "I've got the forest. With Forestals inside. I move it. Your soldiers cant shoot the forestals, but they can so, tough luck, and bla, bla, bla" "You should target your cannon manually". Hardcore Rules Lawyering.

Then, you can make two things

a)Leave the game.

b)Continue playing, hoping your tactics will balance that mess somewhat.

It's a shame there are so few Warhammer players in my city.That's a little more than bending the rules. Sure, the terrain rules are kind of vague, but him saying that you can't shoot his guys when they're in the forest, but he can still shoot at you is ridiculous. Either you both can see and shoot, or you both can't. I wouldn't play the guy if you can't get him to agree to that.

Rustic Dude

2009-07-18, 03:15 AM

That's a little more than bending the rules. Sure, the terrain rules are kind of vague, but him saying that you can't shoot his guys when they're in the forest, but he can still shoot at you is ridiculous. Either you both can see and shoot, or you both can't. I wouldn't play the guy if you can't get him to agree to that.

That's the point.

One of the reasons I left playing Warhammer a couple of years ago. :smallfrown:

Nevermind, thank you for confirming my suspicions.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-18, 03:54 PM

I too have lived the horror of playing with a highly-unsportsmanlike player who all-but cheated like that. Not as obvious about it, though. Though he was the sort who would ream you with rules-lawyering one turn... then next turn when said rule was to YOUR benefit... "Oh, wait. It doesn't work that way now because..." Or he would just out and out forget a rule he'd forced a stop in the game twenty minutes ago to look up, and that had saved his sorry butt. This man has literally ruined the hobby for two people, and gave one other such a bad impression of it that they never took it up. :smallmad:

Woot Spitum

2009-07-18, 06:49 PM

It's unfortunate that some players seem to forget that Warhammer isn't just about trying to win, it's about having fun. Sure, playing win-at-any-cost will give you a better win loss record, but no one will want to play you outside of tournaments. I was fortunate enough to get into the hobby after both my brothers and several of my friends already had armies, so I don't have to worry about dealing with whoever happens to be at the gaming store. I initially worked on building a strong army since I knew I would regularly be facing dwarves, vampire counts, and dark elves on a regular basis, but recently I've been considering trying some slightly less powerful lists, just to keep things interesting.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-19, 03:07 PM

Trond Forgelighter

2009-07-19, 11:41 PM

I can't remember if you were the one who mentioned dwarfs, Rustic, but for some reason I have the impression you're dwarf. If so and you REALLY want to make his day a complete misery, do the nastiest thing I ever saw someone do to WE - Thorek Ironbrow, on his Anvil, banging out the "half-move-and-d6-S4-hits" rune on full power all day long; it's "cast" in the shooting phase so can't be dispelled, and nothing we could find about Anvils said they *need* LOS so it spent the entire game untouchable behind a hill. If you can keep that going, it will kill the game stone dead. Can't see how it would be terribly interesting to play WITH, mind you, but it will do the job.

As a dwarf player i realize that thorek is widely considered overpowered, the thing i find frustrating though is that then I want to play a dwarf army that can actually move (for reason's I'll explain later) and i get yelled at for using thorek instead of a regular runelord. and whenever i use aregular runelord he does nothing to warrant his cost or he blows up and scores my opponent 700 points. so the thing is I don't take him to be mean spirited or because i want to win at all costs but because he makes a regular anvil look so worthless by comparrison and if i do anything else i get ouflanked or just killed anyway by cc units that can charge me.

The reason i don't use very much of a gunline is that players in my area insist on using terrain heavy boards and rarely put a hill large enough to put more then a cannon on which means unless your taking war machines such as the organ gun or a cannon with a line of sight that is harder to avoid your never going to be able to shoot what you want to for more then one turn. so now a days i don't even bother with thunderers or quarrelers and take organ guns and one or two invisible cannons because anything else is useless. So i feel i have to play CC dwarfs because they don't even need to power game they can just stop me from shooting with so much terrain that my guns can't see their flyers till their at point blank. Then I try to take thorek for some movement and shooting that dosen't need line of sight and people get pissed h9w can i make a list that cna deal with this and not get instantly discarded for being cheese.

tribble

2009-07-19, 11:44 PM

I'm considering getting into warhammer. I'm wondering if there's a static close-combat sort of army.

Ganurath

2009-07-19, 11:52 PM

I'm planning on throwing a Skaven army together now that I'm getting back in. Should I dive in headfirst, or wait until the new army book comes out?

Also, 1,000 list concept for 6E Skaven, going off top of head:Chieftain with Heavy Armor, Shield, Bands of Power (76 points)
War(p?)lock Engineer with Claw, +1 power dice addon, 2 Dispel scrolls (125 points)
Assassin with smoke bombs (125 points)

24 Clanrats with spears, Chieftain (144 points)
24 Clanrats with spears, Engineer (144 points)
5 Night Runners (possibly with Assassin) (60 points)
8 Jezzails (160 points)
8 Jezzails (160 points)

Thoughts?

TheThan

2009-07-19, 11:58 PM

I'm considering getting into warhammer. I'm wondering if there's a static close-combat sort of army.

Can you be a little bit more specific in your question.

Warhammer fantasy is about close combat.
So here’s a questionnaire:

Do you want a well rounded “all comers” faction?
Do you want an army focused on doing one thing really good?
How important is movement to you?
Do you want small but elite units?
Do you want large units of lousy troops (rank and file guys)?
Do you want units that can survive taking a hit before it dies?
Do you like cavalry and knights in shining armor?
Do you like footmen and large formations of guys?
Do you like a slightly silly army?
Do you like elves (there’s three kinds!)?
Do you like magic users?
Do you hate magic users?
How do you feel about the chaos gods?
Orcs or humans?
Do you want to use a lot of monstrous creatures?
do you want powerful but expensive heroes?
are you looking to win at all costs?
Or is fun your primary focus?
Do you want to win combat by smashing face?
do you want to win combats by outmaneuvering and out numbering your enemy?

Rustic Dude

2009-07-20, 02:58 AM

Woot Spitum

2009-07-20, 12:20 PM

If you want to go with something harder... try greenskins, ogres or Dogs of War. (The last don't even have an official army book) Fun times! Or play the old, 6th edition version of Dark or High elves... neither army was terribly scary back then. :smallbiggrin:I was thinking more along the lines of working with the army I have, due to monetary considerations.:smallfrown: One reason I have trouble toning my army down is due to the fact that even using every single model I have, I can only just barely make 1500 points. Still, I'd like to try running an all-fast cavalry army, nothing but glade riders and wild riders if I could find a way to make it work.

If I had the money to go for a new army though, I'd probably pick the Tomb Kings. They look cool, and I've heard playing them can be challenging.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-20, 06:12 PM

Static, close combat, eh? As in, defensive and good in close combat? There are a few armies that would work for that.

Empire infantry lists play defense well... though you'd need a lot of models.

Chaos has some of the nastiest close combat troops in the game.

Dwarves are defensive masters, about as tough as chaos troops, but less killy.

High Elves play good defense, despite being delicate as heck if you strike back at them. They have some NASTY close combat units, but the elven armies in general can be hard to use.

Skaven, like empire, can bring massive bulk infantry to the field... I don't know how good they are on defense, though.

The important thing to remember for ANY defense list is this. If you don't have any reason for the enemy to come at you, your troops will just sit there as he shoots and magics you to death. Any defense list needs either shooting and/or warmachines... or mages... and a decent amount of either/both. That way, if the enemy hangs back to keep away from your nasty close-combat forces... you whittle him down. Force him to come at you, then tear him apart. Also, get used to the idea of an infantry force... as cavalry don't really do the "static defense" thing. Although a unit of cav on your flanks to sweep along and side-swipe anyone who gets caught in fighting your defenders isn't a bad idea.

Woot Spitum

2009-07-22, 05:03 PM

Out of curiosity, has anyone had a chance to fight the updated Empire yet? None of my friends use them, and I've been interested in seeing what they can do.

Pilum

2009-07-23, 09:51 AM

Dear god, Woot, the way you phrased that had me thinking they'd released an updated book on the quiet... Nearly had a heart attack thinking I'd have to restructure everything again!

I've not really played AGAINST what I'd call a representative Empire army - he fields what I call his Panzer division; Steam Tank, lots of knights, greatswords and a fair helping of artillery (Hydra Anti Kanone? :smallwink:) - but as one who plays WITH occasionally... from my point of view, nothing much really changed if you have experience of them previously. A few new toys (though the Helblaster and pistoliers took a mild spanking, and the Griffon Standard went to BSB only, boo hoo, sob sob), that was it really. The Empire's "trick" is the detachment system, when all is said and done, and the rules for that are more or less the same as they always have been.

Azukar

2009-07-23, 10:08 AM

I'm considering getting into warhammer. I'm wondering if there's a static close-combat sort of army.

I haven't played Fantasy since 6th Edition came out (and I'm assuming there have been editions since), but unless they've really changed things up lately, you can make almost any army a static close-combat type if you try hard enough.

That said, Warriors of Chaos are so close-combatty they barely have any shooty troops, and you can mix and match with magic and daemons if you feel like it. Plus you can have your army serve Khorne, pretty much the evil god of close combat.

Ogre Kingdoms are (or seem to be - their entrance marked my departure from Warhammer) a slightly more specialist combat army, all about having a giant wall of fat and BO rushing toward the enemy.

But like I said before, any army except perhaps Wood Elves can be made to stand and fight.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-23, 09:50 PM

Things have changed quite a bit in 7th.

The main thing being... the three shades of chaos can't be mushed together anymore. If you play Daemons... you play Daemons. If you play Mortals.... you play Mortals. It's kinda sad to see... but I'm pretty sure it was a game balance call.

Second, Chaos has shooting now. Not MUCH, but some. Mortals have the Hell-cannon... a large living warmachine that fires like a very potent mortar, and eats anyone fool enough to challenge it to close combat. Daemons have Flamers, who shoot 1d6 attacks per model... and are one of the better shooting units in the game. (though 35 points per model, and a rare choice)

Beasts haven't been updated yet... and there is much speculation as to how they'll change and what they'll get... as Mortal chaos now has a LOT of the troops formerly used by Beasts.

Oh, also... Nurgle is crazy good now. So much better than the other marks, more often than not. It's kinda scary and... a bit depressing if you liked one of the other gods. :smallsigh:

Pilum

2009-07-28, 09:39 AM

Recently I've been preaching the gospel to a new lad at the club who looked in at us and wondered what we were doing. After a couple of weeks, he got Skull Pass at the weekend (sounds like he was talked into it by the staff rather than get the lizzies he was after, but ho hum :smallannoyed:) and it turns out he has an affinity for short, hairy drunkards. Problem is he wants to know what's "best" to get next. Obvious answer is "the Army Book", but apart from that, any dwarf guys/gals have any advice? Personally I'd lean towards bulking out the miners or some more warriors, but I'm open to suggestions.

BloodyAngel

2009-07-31, 06:00 AM

Assuming the standard dwarven force, he'll want gunners, warriors and cannons a-plenty. Miners are a niche. Some people use them, some won't... but you can't usually go wrong with gunners and warriors. (especially because warriors can be used as Ironbreakers or Longbeards easily) Or you could suggest he get himself an Organ Gun or Flame Cannon, so he can play around with the crazier warmachines.

TheThan

2009-08-09, 09:07 PM

I was helping teach someone Warhammer today and his opponent and I came up with an interesting rules question:

If you have a unit with stupid (cold one knights specifically), and then you use something (Goldtooth’s ability specifically) to give that unit stupidity, do they have to make their stupidity test twice? Or are they only affected by it once?

I couldn’t find it in the rulebook, so I was wondering if there is anyone here who knew the answer. Also if you are Immune to psychology do you still need to make a stupidity test?

Erloas

2009-08-09, 09:46 PM

I think stupidity is one specific example of over-riding ItP. I think it says it in the stupidity section, but I would have to check for sure. But I think that only works if stupidity is a base ability of the creature, so something that is ItP couldn't have stupidity cast on them, but if they always had it then they would still have to test.

As for two instances of stupidity on a single unit only one would count. In Warhammer a lot of things don't stack unless they specifically say they do. In most cases the more powerful version overrides the weaker, but in the case of the same ability only one counts. As an example, there are 1-2 abilities that give frenzy and they specifically state what happens when used on a unit that already has frenzy.

BloodyAngel

2009-08-09, 09:49 PM

I'm fairly certain you either have it or you don't. In the instance of a unit with stupidity getting stupidity again... I'm pretty sure they still only need to test once... just as in the case of a unit with stupidity being led by a character with stupidity... you'd only make one check.

Granted, I'm not basing that on any sort of rule though... just what seems right to me.

TheThan

2009-08-09, 11:22 PM

It’s one of those wonky rules that probably won’t come up. Not many things have stupidity and not many thing give it either. I imagine that once you have it, you already have it, since its still just a leadership check and not a case of something overriding something else (like say 4+ ward saves being overridden by a 3+ ward save).

Penguinizer

2009-08-10, 01:22 PM

There was one thing I'm rather curious about. When the cost for a unit, say, Chaos Knights, is listed as 40 points. Is this per model in the unit, or for the entire unit?

TheThan

2009-08-10, 01:45 PM

Usually it says per model. So that's what I'd go by.

(welcome the land of ridiculously high cost units!)

Penguinizer

2009-08-10, 02:19 PM

The thing is. For several units, the cost is 18 points/model. For a lot of stuff, it's just a flat number.

I'm thinking it's still per model. Since 3 trolls for 45 points is a bit silly.

Pilum

2009-08-10, 03:06 PM

If you have a unit with stupid (cold one knights specifically), and then you use something (Goldtooth’s ability specifically) to give that unit stupidity, do they have to make their stupidity test twice? Or are they only affected by it once?

I couldn’t find it in the rulebook, so I was wondering if there is anyone here who knew the answer.
Personally I'd say they only get it once. I interpret Psychology as being an on/off switch; unless it SAYS that the ability double-stacks, it doesn't. For instance, a lot of fear-granting spells/items say that "if the target already causes fear, it now causes terror". Now the DE get a fear-causing banner, but it DOESN'T say that in the description, so I'd say it's a waste of time giving that to Cold Ones.

*** EDITED TO ADD ***
Just been poking round the Errata section and found this in the Chaos section - seems analagous:

Q. If you already have Stupidity from a spell or a Helm of Many Eyes, can you get it again from the Eye of the Gods roll?
A. Yes, you can (but only once!) although this will have no additional effects – stupidity has its limits.

Sadly GW common sense ends there - when is a magic weapon not a magic weapon? When it's a Dark Elf one, obviously.

Q. Do attacks from Lifetaker [a MAGIC repeat xbow chosen under the MAGIC WEAPONS section - Pilum] count as magical attacks?
A. No, they do not.
Ah well, that's the list changed, always found that really useful for sniping at ethereal creatures. Guess a VC player on the dev team discovered that too :smallfrown:
*** ***

Also if you are Immune to psychology do you still need to make a stupidity test?
Yes. Oddly enough, ItP models aren't actually, er, Immune to Psychology - well, not all of it! :smallwink::

Troops that are Immune to Psychology ... automatically pass all their Panic, Fear and Terror tests and are not automatically broken [if outnumbered by feared enemy - my paraphrase]
That's it.

TheThan

2009-08-10, 08:37 PM

Personally I'd say they only get it once. I interpret Psychology as being an on/off switch; unless it SAYS that the ability double-stacks, it doesn't. For instance, a lot of fear-granting spells/items say that "if the target already causes fear, it now causes terror". Now the DE get a fear-causing banner, but it DOESN'T say that in the description, so I'd say it's a waste of time giving that to Cold Ones.

*** EDITED TO ADD ***
Just been poking round the Errata section and found this in the Chaos section - seems analagous:

Sadly GW common sense ends there - when is a magic weapon not a magic weapon? When it's a Dark Elf one, obviously.

Ah well, that's the list changed, always found that really useful for sniping at ethereal creatures. Guess a VC player on the dev team discovered that too :smallfrown:
*** ***

Yes. Oddly enough, ItP models aren't actually, er, Immune to Psychology - well, not all of it! :smallwink::

That's it.
yeah watch out for people trying to pull the "I auto pass my leadership to stay in combat" crap. it doesn't work.

Ganurath

2009-08-10, 10:57 PM

(welcome the land of ridiculously high cost units!)Ulthuan?

In all seriousness, one of the reasons I like Skaven is the expendable swarms backing up swarms with spears, which are in turn supported by more magic weapons than you dare throw ethereal beings at. Gotta love Warpstone.

TheThan

2009-08-10, 11:06 PM

Ulthuan?

In all seriousness, one of the reasons I like Skaven is the expendable swarms backing up swarms with spears, which are in turn supported by more magic weapons than you dare throw ethereal beings at. Gotta love Warpstone.

Ogre kingdoms actually

Try 43 point ogre bulls, with a 50-point full command. Of course, they are Strength 4, Toughness 4, with three wounds, and count as unit strength 3 (per model) and i upgraded them to have a 4+ armor save in close combat, and an additional hand weapon (4 attacks)... and they get free impact hits.

My bro plays skaven, and there is nothing more entertaining than scaring half his army off the table with a terror causing Tyrant. :smallbiggrin:

Ganurath

2009-08-11, 02:38 AM

My bro plays skaven, and there is nothing more entertaining than scaring half his army off the table with a terror causing Tyrant. :smallbiggrin:Fortunately, nobody in my group runs OK. I've been thinking of hiring Ogres for my Skaven, though. Not familiar with rules for Ogres as mercs, though.

BloodyAngel

2009-08-12, 09:14 AM

There are a handful of units in the ogre kingdoms book that any army can use as Dogs of War (taking up a rare choice). Ogre Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers and Maneaters can all be hired as mercs. Maneaters, alas... take up TWO rare units if any other army takes them... probably because they'd be really, really good. Sadly, this means that no one takes them. :smalltongue:

I play ogres from time to time, and have a 2000 point force of them. Before the dark elves updated, I used ogres (Ironguts, usually) in my DE army all the time. They were actually more reliable than my Cold One Knights and hit harder. If you ever field a force of nothing but Dogs of War, you can use ogre units as special choices. Yes, even Maneaters. Of course, you'll need it... as the Dogs of War force is pretty awful. They don't have their own book, and can only use the stock magic items common to every force. (You know, those ones no one uses)

I'd suggest finding the stats for 'em somewhere and trying them out as a unit or two in your normal force. Ogres are a lot of fun, and oddly, they seem to work best outside their own force, which lacks a lot in the way of variety.

Erloas

2009-08-22, 06:25 PM

Well for anyone that doesn't get the GW newsletter... they announced that Skaven are being released in Novemeber.

Doesn't say a whole lot just

This November the Skaven will be clawing and scurrying their way across the Old World with renewed ferocity. As well as a new army book, there are plenty of new metal and plastic miniatures being released, so you'll have a host of new war machines, monsters and characters to field alongside your classic favourites.
They also had a picture of the cover on the new armybook.

Ashtar

2009-08-27, 04:25 AM

I'm looking for decent miniatures for female cultists and or sorceress models to use as casting heroes in a Warriors of Chaos list. But i don't seem to find any on the Games-Workshop website. Do any of you have a good source of good looking female characters ? Or is there a good base female mini to be used for converting?

Basically, I'm looking to do a set of charaters like Warhammer AoR female cultists and magus.

Thanks a lot!

Penguinizer

2009-08-27, 09:21 AM

I've been working on a Warrior's of Chaos army-list for some time. I've been wandering a few things, mainly, is Archaon really worth it?

I've been considering using a Tzeenth Sorcerer on a disc instead, since this would let me have 3 regiments of 7 chosen (2 of which I'm considering largely converting from a Warriors of Chaos regiment box, using two of the 10 Chosen I've already got to add the last 2 to one group) instead of the one unit of 10 I'm currently using. The rest of the army contains:

Two Nurgle Sorcerer's, 3 5-man Marauder Horsemen groups, and 5 knights. This is a 2000 point army, so I'm thinking the 11 additional infantry-models might help.

I'm also considering removing some of the less needed equipment, such as Armor of Damnation from the Tzeentch Sorcerer, and Chieftains from the marauder horsemen groups so I could fit in a fourth group.

Pilum

2009-08-27, 09:52 AM

Ashtar, you could always try the usual suspects for convertible models, eg Foundry, or you could spend time here (http://www.arcaneminiatures.co.uk/index.asp) to see if one of those links does anything for you. Personally, I quite like the look of this one (http://www.gorgon-studios.com/shoppe/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_7&products_id=4), but I'm not quite sure I could justify the shipping charges for just one model to myself! :smallsmile:

Mx.Silver

2009-08-27, 11:02 AM

I've been working on a Warrior's of Chaos army-list for some time. I've been wandering a few things, mainly, is Archaon really worth it?
Depends on how big an army you're building. If you're around the usual 2k points then I'd be inclined to say no, he's just too expensive a choice and you'll struggle building a list capable of supporting him. For 3K and above then he becomes a lot more manageable. This problem is fairly common with most special characters really.

Penguinizer

2009-08-28, 11:12 AM

Does anyone here know a site or a good way to determine the price of second-hand used minis? I've been thinking of buying some, but I don't want to cut negotiations short by making a terrible offer.

Ashtar

2009-08-31, 09:34 AM

Rule of thumb:

Base price of the mini new in box.
Goes up if well assembled, built, converted and painted to such an extent that you will not repaint it.
Goes down for all other reasons since it will require more work.
Well painted will cost 1.5 to 5 times the price of the mini.
Not painted / Badly painted (requiring a stripping) will be price of mini -20% to -70%.

This is basically works since if you can buy it new for 100% of the price. For out of production models, expect to pay more that the new in box price even for mangled and massacred models requiring a full stripping, unpinning and rebuilding.

Zorg

2009-08-31, 11:25 AM

If the minis had a new army book recently the price will tend towards higher as non-painters try to build armies (Skaven come September).

If they had new sculpts released that are superior they will get less (Dark Elves for example).

If they had a new sculpt that was inferior they will get more (Daemonettes).

If they have no rules they will get less (Chaos Dwarfs, Squats). The people fanatical enough about these armies will likely have all they need already.

If they were some very nice/uncommon unit they will get more regardless (40k Robots, old character models).

If the minis were previously available in the GW collectors range they will get alot lower - many OOP minis (such as 40k Harlequins, the Familiars set which is still around) were available for several years through the website, so while now again being technically OOP, the market is saturated by them so they don't get anything near what they used to.

If the unit has no other comparable minis, it will go for more (ie Genestealer hybrids).

I don't think a good paintjob will necessarliy improve your chances of a good sale as it would have to match the buyer's current army or be their starting force. If they're not too fussed about matching paint schemes they probably won't care about quality too much anyway.

Also if the model has been greatly superseeded it can go for alot less. For example Rogue Trader era marines often go for $1-3 each. A great many were re-cast for the webstore too so that's driven the price down. Also the minis are much smaller than the current range in stature, so don't fit very well in with the modern minis. On the other hand the RT era Land Speeder is smaller, but much more unique when compared to the modern one, that it goes for more.

Similarly the old Witch Elves go for almost nothing as the newer sculpts are far superior.

Most new in box stuff on EBay sells for less than you'd pay at retail. After all, why should I buy from you for more or the same when I can go to the GW and know 100% that what I'm getting is legit?

What were you looking to buy anyway? That might help give some comparrison. Or have a look on EBay for some ideas.

Ashtar

2009-09-05, 04:43 PM

Hooray! The first 30 points of my horde of Skaven have emerged from the warrens. They are still 'armless but weapon training starts tomorrow.

They took me ages to get going on them. I was looking for a skin tone I liked. Finally I settled on Tallarn Flesh + Vermin Brown 1/1.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/9584/r0013604.jpg

jet082

2009-09-21, 02:45 PM

So I've been thinking about getting back into Warhammer, but it's been a while since I last played. I noticed that a new edition has been released recently (yes, the last time I played was back in 2005). How much has changed with the new edition? Do you think I'd need to do a major overhaul to get back into the hobby?

Also, I play Bretonnians. I've noticed from glancing through the thread that they're not really well-respected, but what can I say - I love knights and Arthurian legends. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-09-21, 07:14 PM

I was thinking of getting back into Warhammer and wondering if my Empire army would be salvagable under the current rules. It's always had a problem with having too little infantry.

My poor poor empire army:

Karl Franz
Ludwig
Boris Todbringer
Various Mordhiem guys I can use as heroes and generals
2 priests of Ulric
1 priest of sigmar on foot
1 grey wizard, mounted
19 swordsmen, basically painted
15 half-painted and broken crossbowmen
8 rieksguard, basically painted
5 pistoliers, basically painted except for the horses which are unpainted
4 half-painted and broken ogres (do they even have rules for letting Empire use these guys anymore? They're dogs of war aren't they?)
8 flagellants, variously painted and unpainted
1 great cannon, painted
1 helblaster volley gun, painted

No idea how many points that is under current rules. I'm pretty sure that's at least three special choices, so I can't really field my entire army ever.

I also have Beastmen (useless under the current rules since I have no ungors), Undead (yes undead, not yet updated into vampires or khemri) and a small number of orcs.

onasuma

2009-09-22, 01:28 AM

3 boxes of militia, and i think that army could be made to work. Probably bump up the fanatic squad so they arent completly shot apart before they reach your opponents lines as well.

EDIT: Ogres are from the ogre book. Empire can still use them either with 2 hand weapons, a great weapon + heavy armour, a cannon each (I know!) or as eliet mega ogres from all over the place who destory anything they go up against.

Erloas

2009-09-22, 09:57 AM

First, it would be nice if we could get that image spoilered so it doesn't stretch the screen.

As for changes from 6th to 7th edition, there are a lot of little changes but I can't think of any really major ones. Ranges for things like panic and terror are all the same now, ranks are 5 wide instead of 4 (which doesn't do much for Bretonnians since their lance formation rule still works the same), power dice can only be used by the magic user that generated it, and probably one of the biggest tactical changes is that units that overrun one combat and into another combat get to fight a second time that round if the second combat has not been resolved yet.
Most of the magic lores have been changed too to make them more appealing so people don't just take Heavens and Fire all the time without even thinking about the other choices. There are others, but nothing that really stands out to me right now.

If you haven't been playing much then most of the changes you probably almost won't notice because a lot of them are the sort of things you would be relearning even if the edition didn't change.

To get started again all you really need is the new rulebook. It didn't change anything in any of the army books themselves, with very few exceptions, none of which apply to Bretonnians if I recall correctly.

The biggest issue with Bretonnians is they are a one dimensional army and at this point everyone knows what they can and can't do and it isn't that hard to take advantage of that one-dimensionalism fairly easy. I would still say they are a powerful army, especially against newer players, but they aren't that hard to counter by more experienced players.

As for the Empire, seems like all you need is some more basic troops like Onasuma suggested. Beyond that it would mostly depend on how you wanted to play the army.
As for Beastmen, I'm really hoping they get a new armybook soon because I want to start an army of them and I'm hoping for some new plastic Minotaur models. They can be fielded without any beastherds (gors/ungors) using beastigor/khornegor/pestigor units, hounds and chariots. And of course if you go to 2000 points and take a doombull then you can run minotaurs as core choices. Its not really a big deal not having beastherds because their special rule is technically broken* in the new edition anyway which makes them significantly less useful.

*Beastherd rules state they line up 4 models wide and new rules say they have to be 5 wide to count for ranks, so technically they can't get rank bonuses. The simple fix is to just make them line up 5 wide instead, but GW has started a policy of not changing armybooks with updates so it didn't happen. So long as you are not going to a tournament it should be simple enough to get an opponent to agree to the simple and obvious and not game breaking change.

Skeletons are skeletons... so it wouldn't be too hard to use old undead as parts of either Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings. Though depending what you have it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. Especially since the new skeletons with the VC are some very good looking skeletons anyway.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-09-22, 11:39 AM

3 boxes of militia, and i think that army could be made to work. Probably bump up the fanatic squad so they arent completly shot apart before they reach your opponents lines as well.

I had a box of militia but I used it all for random conversions. I could just shove a ton of random models into a unit but I'm not really a militia fan.

Ogres are from the ogre book. Empire can still use them either with 2 hand weapons, a great weapon + heavy armour, a cannon each (I know!) or as eliet mega ogres from all over the place who destory anything they go up against.

I'm not going to buy a book for 1 unit, but if I can borrow one from someone that might work.

I just wish it were normal rules that Dogs of War were only special. That way I could have old school Empire army with dwarves, ogres and halflings. They haven't changed that have they?

As for the Empire, seems like all you need is some more basic troops like Onasuma suggested. Beyond that it would mostly depend on how you wanted to play the army.

I'd buy some halbediers since halberds are one of my favourite weapons, but since they don't sell 20 state troops for £12 anymore I'll probably buy a battalion.

For some reason I never made my models up as halbediers because I didn't like how the arms fitted together.

They can be fielded without any beastherds (gors/ungors) using beastigor/khornegor/pestigor units, hounds and chariots. And of course if you go to 2000 points and take a doombull then you can run minotaurs as core choices. Its not really a big deal not having beastherds because their special rule is technically broken* in the new edition anyway which makes them significantly less useful.

I have 1 unit of Bestigors and 2 units of Gors, so I can't really field an entirely bestigor army.

I do have a minotaur lord model, but it doesn't stand up.

Skeletons are skeletons... so it wouldn't be too hard to use old undead as parts of either Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings. Though depending what you have it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. Especially since the new skeletons with the VC are some very good looking skeletons anyway.

If I decide to play Tomb Kings I'd probably go for a 100% chariot/mounted army so my old undead models aren't very useful there. Pity I you don't get chariot riding liche-priests or I could use Arkhan the Black as one.

I know I can in theory field a vampire army (probably blood dragons but I have the models for everything except Necrarch) but I miss my WS 7 necromancer lord. I bought some Bretonians to convert into Blood Dragon Black Knights a while ago but they basically ended up as just Bretonians painted differantly. I have some Bretonian damsels that make quite good necromancers, just converted their staff tops with spare skeleton bits. Makes a differance from the boring old "convert a damsel into a lamian vampire" deal.

Is the Varghulf any good?

Erloas

2009-09-22, 12:37 PM

Well either way you aren't more then about 1, maybe 2 unit purchases to be able to have most of your armies usable again.

I think the militia box can also be used for the archers and huntsmen. Not really the first choice for most empire armies, but they aren't without use. Also while militia isn't that great on their own they have some good uses as detachments and one box would give you enough for 2-4 detachments for the other units you have.
The Battalions are always a good choice, especially since you don't seem to have any knights yet and they can always be put to good use. I would say that would give you a very strong base to work from. However either way it would come down to how you want to run the army. Its a good start for a well rounded list and decent for infantry/detachment heavy list, but it wouldn't do a whole lot for a gunline sort of list.

For the skeletons, at least in terms of Tomb Kings, an all mounted list doesn't work very well for them. It can be pretty good once you get to 2000 points and take a Tomb King for core chariots, but other then the chariots all the light and "heavy" cavalry of the TKs really kind of sucks. Its hard to make a competitive TK army in any form, but you will need blocks of skeletons to do much.

I've got a Varghulf but just started putting it together so I haven't actually used it yet. It seems pretty good to me, and being a vampire it allows other units to march. Seems like a good choice if you don't have the money (or conversions) and points to field those really expensive blood knights.

jet082

2009-09-22, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the info and the quick reply!

I definitely can't afford to start up a completely new army, since I've already invested enough money as is into the Bretonnians. And I do like them, even if they're somewhat predictable. Hopefully I can vary my play-style enough so that it's mostly unexpected. It's not like I plan on playing in tournaments or anything... I just want to play for fun really. Perhaps play in some type of overall story campaign if my local GW hosts one.

Good to hear that most of the rule changes don't apply to my army. It might mean a slight change with my damsels, but that's no big deal. That and a men-at-arms unit (which isn't a large factor anyhow). Overall, very minor. I'd have to relearn the rules anyhow, so I won't even notice a difference.

hamishspence

2009-09-22, 02:01 PM

If I decide to play Tomb Kings I'd probably go for a 100% chariot/mounted army so my old undead models aren't very useful there. Pity I you don't get chariot riding liche-priests or I could use Arkhan the Black as one.

The model could be used as Settra, possibly.

the new Vampire Counts book, in the description of Abyssal Horrors, mentions Arkhan's flying chariot. But I don't think a necromancer can ride one of those- I think they are a Lords Only option.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-09-22, 03:45 PM

The Battalions are always a good choice, especially since you don't seem to have any knights yet and they can always be put to good use.

I do have knights, I just listed them as Rieksguard.

The model could be used as Settra, possibly.

the new Vampire Counts book, in the description of Abyssal Horrors, mentions Arkhan's flying chariot. But I don't think a necromancer can ride one of those- I think they are a Lords Only option.

You still get Necromancer lords/masters don't you? Even though they aren't a good option for a general anymore.

hamishspence

2009-09-22, 03:49 PM

As far as I know, you now only get vampires as Lord choices- its been a while since I read the new book though.

I just checked White Dwarf- it says no Lords- only necromancers, as a Hero, and they can only be first level, but, they can buy more spells. So you could have a 1st level necromancer knowing a whole lot of spells.

Erloas

2009-09-22, 04:39 PM

I do have knights, I just listed them as Rieksguard.
Ah, I was wondering what you meant by Rieksguard. I was wondering if it was a really old unit I wasn't aware of. Since Riekland is the heart of the Empire and everything can come from their I didn't associate them with knights.

You still get Necromancer lords/masters don't you? Even though they aren't a good option for a general anymore.

Necromancers are a fair amount different now. I would have to check my armybook to make sure, but if I recall correctly they all know a base -0- level spell and can pick one other necromancer spell. I think there are 4 spells in the VC lore that are necromancer spells. I may have that mixed up though and maybe all vampires know the level 0 spell and can get more, or maybe they all get that 0 level spell. You always have to have a vampire lead the army, the other hero choices such as Wight Kings and Necromancers are clearly secondary to the vampires.

I definitely can't afford to start up a completely new army, since I've already invested enough money as is into the Bretonnians. And I do like them, even if they're somewhat predictable. Hopefully I can vary my play-style enough so that it's mostly unexpected. It's not like I plan on playing in tournaments or anything... I just want to play for fun really. Perhaps play in some type of overall story campaign if my local GW hosts one.
Pretty much in a non WAAC/tournament setting Brettonians should do just about as well as they always did. A lot will come down to if your normal opponents know what needs to be done to beat Brettonians, such as sacrificial units, bait-and-flee, etc. Its also possible to have a more well rounded Brettonian army, its just that you usually don't see anything but as many knights as you can field and nothing else. Looking at most Brettonian armies* you would think peasants and Men-at-Arms weren't even an option in the army book and that there are almost as many Pegasus running around as normal horses.
*at least of the armies I have seen. I haven't actually played against them a much, but even online I don't see lists that aren't like that.

If you take some men-at-arms and archers and don't simply charge your knights across the table as quickly as possible you can probably throw a number of people off compared to the normal look of a Brettonian army. Although I'm not sure if Men-at-Arms and archers are at a point cost low enough to use them the way they should be used.

Erloas

2009-09-22, 10:02 PM

Well I got the VC book just to double check everything. The army must be led by a vampire, there is no exception. A vampire hero is a level 1 magic user, can be upgrade to level 2 with a vampire power. A vampire lord is a level 2 magic user and can be upgrade with either a vampire power or a base upgrade or both to get 3-4. All vampires know the level 0 vampire spell and then roll for spells as per usual.

All necromancers can choose 1 necromancer spell (the level 0, 1, 2 spells) and can get additional spells (but not levels) for a cost.

jet082

2009-09-23, 01:45 AM

Pretty much in a non WAAC/tournament setting Brettonians should do just about as well as they always did. A lot will come down to if your normal opponents know what needs to be done to beat Brettonians, such as sacrificial units, bait-and-flee, etc. Its also possible to have a more well rounded Brettonian army, its just that you usually don't see anything but as many knights as you can field and nothing else. Looking at most Brettonian armies* you would think peasants and Men-at-Arms weren't even an option in the army book and that there are almost as many Pegasus running around as normal horses.
*at least of the armies I have seen. I haven't actually played against them a much, but even online I don't see lists that aren't like that.

If you take some men-at-arms and archers and don't simply charge your knights across the table as quickly as possible you can probably throw a number of people off compared to the normal look of a Brettonian army. Although I'm not sure if Men-at-Arms and archers are at a point cost low enough to use them the way they should be used.

I should show you some of my old lists, once I dig them out. I do tend to field men-at-arms and definitely bowmen, and I love using the mounted yeomen for flexibility. I can't say I'm a fan of the Pegasus Knights, since they're rather expensive and I find them to be weak defensively. I'd rather field another unit of knights or peasants over the Pegasus Knights. I also had a plan to create a bowmen-heavy army, spending a good 60% of the points on just those peasants. Spray and pray at its finest. Point is, I'm willing to look at more than just knights - they're good, but you still need a way to get to the opponent, and the extra charge length can only do so much.

Cheesegear

2009-09-28, 05:42 AM

So, I've decided to get back into Warhammer, and, having a good look around the store, and talking to the Blackshirts on a few things, I discovered something, I. Like. Monsters. So, what I've come up with is either

a) Orcs & Goblins
b) Dark Elves, or
c) Skaven

Anyone have any favourites? Why? Please don't tell me stuff I already know. Army compositions haven't changed much. Orcs and Goblins are still animosity-ridden combat monsters and goblins are...Numbers. And Fanatics.

Dark Elves consist of Repeater Crossbows and Bolt Throwers, and Cold One Knights. Hydras. And Magic. I'm pretty sure nothing else exists in the army list. :smallwink:

Skaven I'm not too sure about, since the Blackshirt told me that they're getting a revamp soon. So, it's hard to know what to buy with them.

Sure, I like monsters, but, not so much dinosaurs. So, Lizardmen are out.

Dark Faun

2009-09-28, 08:56 AM

The Skavens are indeed getting a revamp next month, like the Space Wolves did this month (I'm still surprised nobody talked about it in any of the WH40K threads).

My favorites of the three are the dark elves since I love elves and I find their chainmail very pretty. On the other hand, their monsters actually don't interest me except for the cold ones, for those I prefer the orcs and goblins even if I don't like the giant. Those greenskins know how to have fun. :smalltongue:

Erloas

2009-09-28, 10:41 AM

It really depends on if you are talking about monsters as monsters or monsters as models.

part you didn't really ask about

While the cold ones are monsters, in terms of game play they are only marginally more monstrous then a horse and don't have much on boars. The actual monsters are the hydra, dragon, and manticore. Hydras are easy to take in most lists, but I don't see them as a no-brainer choice compared to the bolt throwers, which they are competing with for rare slots. The dragon and manticores just make for expensive heroes and hero heavy lists, which I don't care for in general. They also do a lot to dictate your entire army composition.

Skaven... well you would have to wait a few months until the new book. But right now all I can think of for monsters for them is the rat ogres. The rat swarms and giant rats are monsters in the D&D sense but not really in the Warhammer sense. Especially given the makeup of the army, I simply don't see them as being a choice if you are looking for monsters. ...actually skaven can take a giant can't they? I've never actually seen a skaven player field one but I thought the slave giant was theirs...

O&G are a lot of fun and have quite a few monsters with trolls and giants and their character mounts, and boars if you are going to count Cold Ones for DE. Animosity isn't as bad as it was, it happens just as much, but the good side of it happens a lot more then it used to. With a little bit of care I don't see it as being more of an obstacle then stupidity for cold ones. In fact, with a LD9 of Cold One Knights and Chariots you will fail 6 out of 36 rolls, or 16.67% or 1/6, which is the same as animosity, just that a larger percentage of the army has to deal with it. Orc characters can practically be monsters on their own in close combat.

Skaven I've never really liked. Their primary ranged weapon still use the auto-hit thing which is kind of just broken. I know they can make some interesting and fun to play against lists, but mostly they are just an exercise in frustration for one player or the other. They are good if they aren't SAD.

O&G are interesting and fun. I've had a lot of very good games against them, since my brother plays them. I've used them some and always did well with them. Maybe not in a high level tournament setting, but in most games they are dangerous, I know my brother has one a small local tournament with them and does win more often then not. They have a huge amount of variety and can do a lot of things that aren't an option anywhere else. I love squigs, giants are always fun, and trolls are interesting if a bit troublesome. They make for interesting games.

I've been playing DE for years now. I really like them, but I never really play them as a monster heavy list, depending if you want to count cold ones, and even then I don't generally have more then 1 unit of knights and maybe 1-2 units of chariots. They make some very good balanced lists and when played right can completely dismantle many opponents. They take a lot of learning to get to that point though and until then they die pretty easy, they aren't all that forgiving of mistakes. It can be really off-putting to opponents though, especially if you try to go cheesy with them which is much easier now then it used to be.

If I were to go for a beast/monster heavy army though I would personally go for Beasts of Chaos. Get the giant of the O&G, they get shaggoth and spawns that are all monsters and Minotaurs, Ogres, Dragon Ogres, centigors, and warhounds which are all monster like and all their normal troops are beast like anyway. They could use an update too, but they are still not too bad so long as you can get your opponents permission to let beast herds rank up 5 wide for the bonus instead of 4 like the armybook states, which is a very minor and obvious change GW just refuses to errata. I have ran some doombull lists (with core minotaurs) and completely decimated some opponents with it, though at that point it runs into a lot of the same issues as ogre kingdoms.

Cristo Meyers

2009-09-28, 10:56 AM

Skaven don't get giants, just the Rat Ogres.

They're getting new models next month, but if you're really interested at least wait until the new book comes out. I doubt anything is getting majorly changed, but the last thing you need to do is start on a horde army only to find out they've completely mixed things around and you have to start over.

As they stand right now, Skaven get a lot of dirty tricks that make them kinda unpopular to play against: auto-hitting range, able to fire into melee, no penalties for refusing challenges, and absurdly cheap units (slaves are 2 points apiece, warriors not much more than that)

However, if you're like me, they're also great fun to play as. Cackling madly when the warpfire thrower finds it's mark is great, but when it explodes and decimates a unit of slaves it's even better...

BloodyAngel

2009-09-28, 08:03 PM

I can't speak for the Skaven... but I have DE and Greenskins.

Yeah, greenskins win by hordes most of the time. Animosity is a pain, and it keeps them from really being a top tier army, power-wise... though they are a blast to play. Though if you like the humor and not so much the unreliable part, I'd suggest ogres, actually. Between yheti, gorgers and giants... they have plenty of monsters, not to mention the ogres themselves.

Dark Elves are... awesome. Granted, I'm a huge fan so I'm a bit biased... but they're a very good all-around army, and unless you purposely cheese them out, they're still difficult to play and take skill to use. If you like monster troops, they have Cold One Knights, Cold One Chariots, Harpies, Manticore, Dark Pegasus, Black Dragons, and the mighty Hydra. They can play any game now... no longer just limited to magic and crossbows. In fact, due to hatred, they're pretty scary in close combat now.

If you really like monsters though, have you considered Lizardmen? Even their base infantry troops are tecnically monsters... then there are Kroxigor, Stegadons, Pterodons, and Carnosaur. They can field more big monsters than nearly anyone (you can include a Dog of War Giant even, if you like them).

Erloas

2009-09-28, 09:16 PM

They can play any game now... no longer just limited to magic and crossbows. In fact, due to hatred, they're pretty scary in close combat now.

If you really like monsters though, have you considered Lizardmen? Even their base infantry troops are tecnically monsters... then there are Kroxigor, Stegadons, Pterodons, and Carnosaur. They can field more big monsters than nearly anyone (you can include a Dog of War Giant even, if you like them).

Well to start, he already stated Lizardmen were already ruled out. Though I also thought it was a pretty good choice.

I would disagree with the last part of your statement about DE though. They were never just a magic and crossbows army. They have always been dangerous in close combat too, its just that they are more dangerous and easier to be dangerous with now. I've been playing and winning with DE for at least 4-5 years now having never used more then 10 RXB warriors and never loading up on magic. Ok, for the first part of that I was drawing and loosing a lot... Their speed is still their most powerful close combat ability, things like hatred, extra str on their exec and knights, and special black guard just give them more margin of error.

Cheesegear

2009-09-28, 10:02 PM

So, looks like Orcs & Goblins it is. Since, going past the GW today, and, looking at some things on the 'net, Dark Elves are popular. And, I've never been one to have the same army as everyone else. Sure, it limits my army choice some, but, it also makes me unique.

Skaven, it turns out, don't actually have that many monsters. I've already said that I don't like the feel of Lizardmen. They just feel wrong to me. And, in a world of Fantasy, I prefer Dragons and Griffons instead of actual dinosaurs. Realistically, a Dragon is a kind of dinosaur...That breathes fire.

Anyway, I'm pretty set on O&Gs now. They look like fun. First order of business is to get one of these (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1530008&prodId=prod1130264). Yes, the Spider is better than the Goblin riding it. Also, when it says a Goblin fears Elves, is that all Elves, or just High Elves?

BloodyAngel

2009-09-29, 01:17 AM

It's all elves... but not if you outnumber them at least 2 to one... which shouldn't be hard on your infantry. (Goblins move in 30+ blocks most of the time.)

As for the DE, I know for a fact that they weren't just crossbows and magic. I've played and loved them since 5th edition. I'm glad they're good now, but I'm also a bit disappointed that... well... they're popular now. In 6th, I would often get "you play dark elves? Really?" only slightly less often then I got "You're a girl who plays warhammer? Really?". Now that they're popular, I get a lot of people who think I picked them up because they're popular and very good now... which is kinda upsetting. I've switched to playing Dogs of War a lot now... as I have more fun as the underdog.

Also... I missed the part about not wanting lizardmen. My bad.

Astrella

2009-09-29, 02:15 PM

Hmm, I'm currently torn about my Warriors of Chaos army.
The problems as I see them is that I'm having difficulty identify myself with an evil army and that they are gameplay wise a bit limited.

So, I've been thinking of selling my Warriors of Chaos and starting High Elves instead. I'm reluctant to do this since this has happened before in the past.
So I don't want to end up with another army which I'll eventually end up selling again. :smallfrown:

So, Playgrounders, I ask for your advice.

P.S. It would be handy if someone had some tips for a fun Warriors of Chaos
army without having to resort to mass cavalry.

Erloas

2009-09-29, 03:11 PM

Anyway, I'm pretty set on O&Gs now. They look like fun. First order of business is to get one of these (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1530008&prodId=prod1130264). Yes, the Spider is better than the Goblin riding it.

Well that is actually true of almost all monstrous creatures... but yes, it is especially true for goblins. It carries over to their normal mounts too, wolves and normal spiders are also better then their riders.

So what are you planning on for the army as a whole? O&G have a huge variety of options.

So, Playgrounders, I ask for your advice.

P.S. It would be handy if someone had some tips for a fun Warriors of Chaos
army without having to resort to mass cavalry.
Well I haven't played the new Warriors of Chaos, but they haven't changed a huge amount. If you are simply having trouble relating to/accepting the background of the army then there isn't much anyone can do to help.

If you are just having trouble winning games, that we can help with. What are you currently using, what point values are you playing, what are your normal opponents and what sort of issues are you having with winning.

Chaos doesn't have shooting and doesn't have war machines (well... just the hellcannon), but it has some options, it has reasonable speed, really good close combat, pretty good magic, and it can be fairly horde-y if you choose to make them so.

The biggest issue I saw with people playing Warriors of Chaos before is that they ignored all types of marauders and generally just took a very few units with every upgrade they could get. This made it entirely too easy to divide and conquerer the army and lead the biggest baddest stuff chasing minor things around the board.

As a side, I would never sell an army. I would collect another one, but I wouldn't get rid of an old one when I did. Its nice to be able to go back and play different armies because every army can/will get a bit repetitive after a lot of games and its nice to go back and try something different now and then without having to start all over again.

BloodyAngel

2009-09-29, 04:17 PM

Chaos is a good army now. Very balanced and fun to play. If you want to play them, and play them well... but you don't like the all-cav idea, (Which seems to be the most popular one lately) then you answer is... marauders. They're disgustingly good for how cheap they are, and can be customised a lot with weapons, armor and marks. Set up a defensive line of them to protect a hellcannon battery... Send them in uge wave like berzerkers... or just use them to support other, harder hitting units.

A force consisting of marauder mobs with some hard-hitting flankers could do quite well. Not just Chaos warriors can perform in this task. Ogres hit hard and are fast enough to keep up. Trolls are more durable (and have that auto-hit vomit attack) but then you have to deal with stupidity. A chariot or two makes a hard-hitting flanker with a narrow frontage. Marauder cavalry is just all-around good and customizable.

The trick is to avoid what Erloas spoke about. Don't make an entire list of super-elites. The bulk of your force should be the super-cheap and all-purpose troops, like marauders. Chaos can field a pretty scary ground-force... that borders on a horde army, depending on how many elites you splurge on. Their magic is pretty nice, with durable casters that can actually fight fairly well... so the only thing they really lack is shooting, save the Hellcannon.

If you go with a slower... or god-forbid defensive infantry force, you'll need a few things. At least one, probably several mages. If you're going in aggressive, you'll want to make sure you have enough magic defense to stop spells from tearing you up along the way... and that means scrolls. Perhaps even the items that force and alter miscasts. If you're playing defense, you'll want to go heavier on magic, and snag a hell-cannon or two, to ensure that you're dangerous enough at a range that the enemy WANTS to get to you.

In either case, you'll want to worry about shooting defense. Either invest in heavy armored troops... or in such massive hordes that panic tests aren't likely. Chaos is good at avoiding panic as is, but if your force gets torn in half before combat starts, you're probably toast.

Ultimately, it all depends on the kind of force you want to run.

Astrella

2009-09-30, 04:45 PM

Thanks for all the nice tips!

The background is less of a problem, since I'm working on a theme that's more neutral oriented.

I think the main problem is that what I currently have of Warriors of Chaos miniatures is rather random. (Battalion, couple of heroes, 2 Spawns, 10 Chosen and a unit of marauder cav) And, in my rush to get everything assembled, I didn't make any conversions, so I'm not that inclined to paint em.

So, my plan at the moment is, stripping what I have, probably cutting up some models and adding some conversions, making nice bases for a chance and movement trays.

I've written up a 1000 points list to work too. (I'm not really a fan of any of the heavy armoured Chaos troops, so I won't be including them any more in huge amounts.)

Exalted Hero: Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield
Sorcerer: Book of Secrets, Dispell Scroll
25 Chaos Marauders (Hand weapon & Shield): Full Command, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Marauders (Flails): Musician, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Marauder Horsemen (Spears & Throwing Spears): Musician, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
Chaos Chariot: Mark of Slaanesh
3 Chaos Trolls
1 Spawn

Cheesegear

2009-09-30, 07:01 PM

So what are you planning on for the army as a whole? O&G have a huge variety of options.

Yes. I've seen that. :smallwink:
Keep in mind that I haven't regarded points cost and (extremely lucky...Well, not luck, I worked hard) real-world currency isn't an issue. This is the army I want...Points cost can get sorted later. Since I haven't worked it out yet, I'm assuming <2000 points.
I'm extremely sad that the 'two Goblin Heroes per Hero slot' rule is gone...I don't think I have enough Ld models in my army.

Goblin Big Boss on Gigantic Spider
Goblin BSB.
Goblin Shaman on Mount to be determined.

x40 Goblins.
x20 Night Goblin Archers (w/ Fanatics)
x20 Night Goblin Archers (w/ Fanatics)
x10 Wolf Riders with Spears and Shields.
x5 Wolf Riders with Spears (no shields)
x5 Wolf Riders with Spears (no shields)
x5 Spider Riders with Bows
x5 Spider Riders with Bows
x5 Spider Riders with Bows
x5 Spider Riders with Bows
Snotlings

Black Orcs
Spear Chukkas
Squig Hoppers

Trolls

Erloas

2009-09-30, 11:29 PM

Yes. I've seen that. :smallwink:
Keep in mind that I haven't regarded points cost and (extremely lucky...Well, not luck, I worked hard) real-world currency isn't an issue. This is the army I want...Points cost can get sorted later. Since I haven't worked it out yet, I'm assuming <2000 points.
I'm extremely sad that the 'two Goblin Heroes per Hero slot' rule is gone...I don't think I have enough Ld models in my army.

Well I did a quick check on your army and it is about 1750 depending on which options you give each unit, I assumed a mid amount of upgrades and a reasonable unit size for the units you didn't give numbers for.

I like the idea you have went for, but I don't know how well it will work as it is. You have 3 big blocks, only 1 of which you have set up for combat, though the archers can do well enough if they are ranked up for CR rather then to maximize the number of shots. You have 7 fast units, and only 3 hard hitting units. I'm just not sure if it is balanced enough to be really effective.

While I love small fast units for flanking like the spider riders and wolf riders, with LD6 they are most likely going to be fleeing after only 2 wounds, and they can't really fulfil their role on the field after 3 wounds (that being to negate ranks and give you a flank bonus). Although its probably not a big issue since you have so much redundency in the list for that role.

Although I would probably look at replacing a unit or two with chariots, they are also very fast and they hit hard enough to make up wounds your other units will have a hard time generating. It does stay with your goblin theme too, though you can only take 1 with your other 3 special slots being used, though you can always take some as character mounts.

Of which, I would find room for an orc fighty hero in place of one of the goblins, or I guess in addition to since you have 4 characters at 2k. You really need the help with LD, though you won't have the range to cover most of your fast units. You also absolutely have to have someone with decent LD staying in range of your trolls or they are just going to be stupid all game long. At their base LD4 they will pass 16.7% of their stupidity tests, at LD6 (NG hero, goblin shaman) it will be 41.7%, at LD7 (current goblin Heros) 58.3%, LD8 (orc hero, goblin lord) 72.2%, and an orc Lord 83.3% of the time. So I really wouldn't even think about fielding them if I couldn't get at least LD8 to lead them around. If you want something big and mean that can work autonomously you have to have a giant (which I find an ironically very fitting choice for an otherwise goblin only army).

From a fluff as well as a playing standpoint I would find the points for a least 1 unit of Orc Boyz, or maybe boar boyz. The unit of 40 goblins could easily be 30 without any real change in its effectiveness and you have a lot of room to play with points with the night goblin archers (I would probably not run more then 1, maybe 2 fanatics with each unit, 3 is just a waste of points when every opponent will know they are there and send in sacrificial units to draw them out). It just seems really out of place to have a unit of black orcs being led by only goblins. Aesthetically I would either replace the BOs with some more squigs or find some other orcs to be with them. Orcs are only 2 points a model more then goblins but they are a lot better in quite a few ways. They of course both have their uses and roles, I just think you have the roles of goblins well covered already. Even just a few units of 10 orcs with minimal upgrades mixed in will give you some good flanking/protection units at a minimum cost.

Seems like a lot of changes, but I don't really see it as more then a few little changes here and there. Some of them aren't needed with other ones, depending what you decide to do. And other then the trolls with poor leadership, the almost exclusively goblin list you have will probably work ok against some armies. Undead armies will be your bane though and you will be lucky to ever get multiple charges to work in your favor and even small units of summoned zombies will cause all sorts of problems for your fast moving small units.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-10-01, 09:56 AM

My empire;

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/all.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/rightflank.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/leftflank.jpg

My camera and photography skills are too poor for the actual warhammer models thread since you can't see any detail at all.

Winterwind

2009-10-01, 10:05 AM

My camera and photography skills are too poor for the actual warhammer models thread since you can't see any detail at all.I wasn't aware we had any standards there (gee, I hope not, I posted there a couple of times! :smalltongue:). :smallwink:

Erloas

2009-10-05, 10:30 PM

Well I got a giant a while ago and have been trying to decide what I wanted to do with him. I couldn't decide which weapons to give him, so I figured I would give him some extra arms so he could hold more weapons.

Not posting this in the model thread... because well, the thread seems to have died, I couldn't find it on the 4 pages shown. I may have missed it, but I checked 3 times and didn't see it.

http://zoppda.blu.livefilestore.com/y1plUOavURKnn3j6XzLq0w6UcrU2Gwr6d5-QeBLURI0QgBLPaRB05Tc9HIbqoE1bt6QCPuQXekNYzvuWdptUt 6Ua94iy_kmlyYl/giant_front.JPG
http://zoppda.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqfvfwex5Qbz49wn-JeBhmdWeqq9mSm2LzN2X6Vm-jZmiTue2zExgp4RO_8NbEfsf25yOOkOE84k0nk9djNlrXf1GPK g-PTmK/giant_left.JPG
http://zoppda.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pfwQHe6TMLPGcJMgaSNskXqqsSk0Joe0JNKxeR9ntKL1wliG Y7XFGPcRBvmjrJiJA6gkyNESSBim9gZAMaUXS34bt41X0K1fg/giant_right.JPG
http://zoppda.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pfWUAMpgGEwIdBxPHQ0Dtwg0NqjzvHbf3nIZ1BfvZf7hJ1cG ICTzwnLQLnClU839eqdjGx8lkcOZ9xumYJMB0LcNhZnE33fpb/giant_back.JPG

Well they aren't the best pictures, I just took some quick ones to get them up. Didn't feel like getting all my lights set up to get some good pictures.

I'm not quite done with him either, still have to put some secondary items on him, which I haven't decided yet. Going to not put them on until I get him at least mostly painted. Thinking I might go with the sack of halflings and the keg. The wine-skin goat is kind of cool but I don't think its really obvious what it is. Cage is kind of cool too, not sure if the model is going to be "too busy" as it is with all the extra arms. I'm thinking I might stick a space marine head sticking out of the bag of people. Still have the shields to stick on his forarms and shoulders.

Can't see it from these pictures, but the only open hands were on one side and weapons were on the other. So I had to cut fingers off and close them around one weapon and the other one I had to cut the thumb off and switch it to the other side of the hand. Just switching the thumb to the other side works pretty well, you can't obviously tell and it looks fairly normal.

Pilum

2009-10-07, 01:10 PM

Pretty good, Erloas. More patience than I have these days - which is ironic, as I picked up a game called Ambush Alley recently (modern urban combat) which means I have to start builiding a small village worth of houses for the American invasion of Wheretheheckistan :smallwink: Really want to make a big effort to clear that backlog that's growing under my bed :smalleek:

And speaking of previous threads, in the previous one I mentioned Old Glory as an alternative for Empire/Dogs of War, but mentioned I wasn't sure how they'd fit size-wise. Well, coincidentally I picked that ruleset from Old Glory's stand at a wargames show, so I got a good look at their 25mm Italian Wars range (http://www.oldgloryuk.com/disp_item.php?c=72&oc=753). They'd do - maybe not side-to-side in the same regiment, but certainly as a unit in their own right. They're closer to 'true' 25mm, and maybe not *quite* as bulky as Citadel, but it didn't seem too bad. Cheaper too! And for those wanting Kislevites, alternative "Northern Empire" or Chaos Marauders, you could do worse than look at their Muscovite/Cossack ranges, they certainly painted up VERY well.

(PS for those of the American persuasion, that link is for the UK operation, this (http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=184) is for your side of the pond!)

Cristo Meyers

2009-10-08, 07:21 AM

Just got a look at the new Skaven army book yesterday and if I weren't feeling ill I'd be positively giddy. We're getting the Vermin Lord and Doomwheel back!

(yeah, I know, they're somewhat sub-optimal for a horde army, I don't care:smalltongue:)

The redesigns of a lot of the models are excellent. There's finally plastic Stormvermin too. Slaves now deal extra damage to any unit nearby when they break and run, Clan Moulder characters can go into battle riding mutant Rat Ogres, and there's a bunch of new warmachines (Poisoned Wind Mortar :smallamused:)

Erloas

2009-10-08, 12:52 PM

I've read the rumors thread on Warseer about Skaven. So long as the ratling guns have to start rolling to hit and a few other minor things they should be a good army to play against. I was never that fond of the army, but it was a pretty good fight so long as they didn't just go SAD.

Personally I'm still waiting for the new Beasts of Chaos list before I get much of anything new.

Astrella

2009-10-08, 01:06 PM

I got my enthusiasm back for my Warriors of Chaos.
I'm thinking of making them desert themed. I'm painting up my dogs in a more lion - like colour scheme already.
Now I was wondering how to make the marauders I already have more deserty. (Well, warriors got there impervious to harsh weather and all going so those are probably less of an issue)
I was thinking of adding some turbans, scarves and such throughout the unit, but can't really think of more things to change.

Arcanoi

2009-10-08, 03:04 PM

So I'm going to a friends house to play some 1500 point fantasy, but the problem is that the only serviceable army I have at the moment is about 2000 points of 40k Daemons of Chaos. I have a Bloodthirster, 32 Bloodletters, 11 hounds and a Karanak, as well as two Daemon Princes. Right now, I have the Bloodletters in units of 8 and the hounds in 3 squads of 4, but I heard that in fantasy, Bloodletters need to be in units of at least 10, and hounds need to be in units of at least 5. I also heard that Daemon Princes are HQs... err Lords? in fantasy, which means I wouldn't be able to use them, I guess.

Any suggestions?

Erloas

2009-10-08, 04:41 PM

Well you are going to need the Daemons army book for fantasy because while you can get the stat line from GWs site and some of the rules there are other rules you don't have.

GWs site does list minimum unit size, which you were right about 5 for hounds, 10 for bloodletters, deamonettes, plaguebearers and flamers.

I'm not actually sure if there are deamon princes in fantasy. They have all the greater deamons (as Lord choices), but I don't see deamon princes. (I haven't played against Daemons in fantasy yet so I can't be a great help). You are going to need heralds to be your hero choices.

I don't think you have even close to 1500 points that you can legally field in fantasy.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-10-08, 05:06 PM

I know they used to have daemon princes in fantasy and the old daemon prince models were all fantasy based.

Daemon princes sort of annoy me since they're so much better than Greater Daemons under the current rules.

I bought and painted a new engineer and vampire, as you really can't see from this terrible photo.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/newvampireandengineer.jpg

Cristo Meyers

2009-10-08, 06:37 PM

TheThan

2009-10-08, 10:25 PM

Since my bro plays skaven (he even sold his DE stuff off for some 40K stuff) exclusively, he showed me the new models on their site. They look good. he’ll have to get the new codex and see for himself.

Capt'n Ironbrow

2009-10-15, 02:38 PM

excuse me for thread necromancy please, I have been away and found it via google... hunting for 5th edition material... Closet_Skeleton's army is the closest I got so far.

My empire;

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/all.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/rightflank.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/leftflank.jpg

My camera and photography skills are too poor for the actual warhammer models thread since you can't see any detail at all.

Nice 5th edition army Closet_Skeleton. Good to see more veterans regain interest in Warhammer Fantasy.
I guess you started during the 5th edition. Correct? the halflings and Ogres used to be Imperial Regiments. I had some halflings too, and their burning-stew catapult (hotpot). Also used one unit of (Imperial) Dwarfs to bolster the battle-lines with high toughness and leadership.
I think they dropped them because the possibilities it offered empire, you could make an empire army with nothing but Ogres (fight better, die way harder), Dwarves (fight better, die harder, braver) and Halflings (shoot better, braver) as regiment choices... and maybe that's what some (affluent, these were expensive miniatures) players did. or max characters, monsters and machines + ogres and dwarves to hold the line.

Found the thread because I just regained an interest in the old game. have been thinking about Fantasy Battles a lot this week.
especially 5th edition comes to mind, I had been playing for about 6 years already when 6th edition was released and rejoiced at every fix it made. except the exclusion of Halflings for the empire (as a rare choice of course). Everything that is ruled by an Elector should be on the empire list. They Have Responsibilities ;)
they shouldn't just be dogs of war, they are subjects of the emperor! :p

Closet_Skeleton

2009-10-22, 03:15 PM

excuse me for thread necromancy please, I have been away and found it via google... hunting for 5th edition material... Closet_Skeleton's army is the closest I got so far.

It's not really thread necromancy if there have been posts in the same month

Nice 5th edition army Closet_Skeleton. Good to see more veterans regain interest in Warhammer Fantasy.
I guess you started during the 5th edition. Correct?

I started during 6th edition but my 5th edition Empire were pretty much useless since I didn't have the knights or swordsmen. I used Undead in 5th edition instead.

My 5th edition army would have been 1 wizard, Karl Franz, 3 ogres, 7 halflings and 6 flagellants.

they shouldn't just be dogs of war, they are subjects of the emperor! :p

Really I just wish dogs of war were only special. I just use the halflings as human archers.

My Empire actually won a battle today. He had a lot of hounds and marauderers while I had every point sink I could apart from the griffon to make it up to 2000 so we actually had the bizare circumstance of Empire being outnumbered by chaos. I only had 5 knights, 7 flagellants, my general and warrior priest (unharmed) left, but I'd reduced the enemy to 1 broken unit of three chaos knights (he fled as a charge reaction for some reason) and 1 broken unit of marauderers. Thankfully he didn't have a chaos lord (he was in turn thankful I didn't have a steam tank) and I was able to kill his general with a charging flagellant champion bolstered my maximum martyrs. His general spent all his time killing swordsmen while mine fought sorcerers in challanges. Pity everything except for my knights with general and warrior priest, helblaster and flagellants were useless except for tying his units up.

BloodyAngel

2009-10-24, 02:15 AM

Hey folks. It's been a while since I've had anything to report... but this is a story that MUST be told.

I bring my dark elves out of semi-retirement to face a friend of mine who insists on using daemons. Normally, I'm more about my dogs of war nowadays, but against daemons, I figured I needed something that had a chance. He unloads on me with a mostly Khorne army that proceeds to eat my knights alive, run my hydra down with a chariot and otherwise smack the crap out of me. By the top of turn 3, I've lost well over half my army. his Bloodthirster, has rear-charged my general's unit and snapped it in two, and caught it in pursuit. Having little else to lose, I make what SHOULD have been a foolish move, and flank-charge the daemon with a unit of dark riders.... because why not?

Said riders proceed to somehow roll insanely well and sneak in two wounds against him, while the daemon rolls bare minimum for his number of attacks in return (he had a blessing where his number of attacks was random... and usually very high) then whiff them ALL... The GREATER FREAKING DAEMON, then loses combat by 4, flubs his leadership check horribly and poofs out of existence. My riders are feeling cocky, and overrun into the side of a chariot with a hero on it. The same one that killed my Hydra... Boom! They take it down in almost the same way, taking only one wound in return. He spends a turn trying to maneuver what remains of his force, and on my next, the riders swoop into the fray again and plow into the side of a unit of Flesh hounds, while one of my few other remaining units (a group of 7 shades) pops out of a forest and manages to gun down his one remaining hero (a tzeeneth spellcaster) with their crossbows. In a series of terrible rolls for him, the flesh hounds take 3 wounds, and return with only one... then roll a 12 on their leadership test, and only one hound remains. The turn after, my riders manage to kill the last remaining hound, and the rest of the game I just run around sniping at his infantry blocks to middling success.

In that first rider charge, I cost him near half his points... and the game ends up being a minor victory for me, despite an utterly SAVAGE first three turns of him ripping me apart. I haven't seen a comeback that hilarious in a long, long time. :smallamused:

Ashtar

2009-10-24, 06:45 AM

It's always the ones where you claw your way back from the worst defeat to victory that make the game memorable and so rewarding. Congratulations!

I think you should give your dark riders a token / mark or something to show of their great victory over a Bloodthirster.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-10-29, 05:51 PM

I played Chaos again with almost the same army (swapped my wizard's horse and my crossbowmen's standard and musician to upgrade my archer detatchment into some hunstmen) and this time it was a complete slaughter. I lost my huntsmen, half my knights and my swordsmen and flagellant champions. He had 1 unit of broken chaos warriors and 1 2 man unit of marauder horsemen.

In turn 2, my hunstmen managed to wipe out a unit of marauder horsemen before being charged in turn by another unit and wiped out. I charged his warshrine with my rieksguard and managed to break it and pursue into his chosen. I also managed to kill 4 chaos knights with 1 cannon ball (he turned them to face my swordsmen and ogres forgetting about the cannon on the flank) and kill the remaining one with my crossbowmen.

Then his chaos lord charged my swordsmen, killed the champion and broke due to my warbanner and griffon standard. My knights were tied up by the chosen but I managed to kill his champion and sorcerer.

Then my ogres and pistoliers charged his warriors, breaking them but failing to catch them. His lord rallied and got charged by my swordsmen and flagellants, defeating the prophet of doom in a challange but breaking again and fleeing into my rieksguard. Finally I managed to break his chosen and my rieksguard wiped them out.

My helblaster was never in range for the entire fight though :smallfrown:

TheThan

2009-10-29, 06:05 PM

Yeah, the crowning moments of awesome are what make this game memorable.

I had this one game where my bro (skaven) lined up a rattling gun and a group of warplock jezzails (6) against my tyrant and his squad of ironguts. So in order to protect them I placed a unit of gnoblars (read: weak ass goblins for those that don’t know) to act as a meat shield for a turn or two while I get close enough to charge.

Well it turned out that that throw away squad of gnoblars took sustained fire from a rattling gun and six gunners for four turns. I lost model after model but they would not break from the shooting. Just kept on moving forward. They actually charged and killed the ratling gun before the died (think they had like three models left). Blitz had to actually kill every model in that unit before he could fire at the ogres behind them. Which managed to sweep up the rest of that side in close combat.

YPU

2009-10-30, 05:03 PM

Im trying to build a small deamon army. Im looking mainly for a cheap army, to be honest. The bloodletters will be a exploration of the army painters shading dips and red undercoat.
So what would be a good army at, say 1000 points and going up to 2000 points from there? And a cheap army at that, I’m hoping. Any suggestions?

Say does a bloodthirster get a bonus attack for two hand weapons?

Arcanoi

2009-10-30, 05:09 PM

It would be rather odd if they did...

Closet_Skeleton

2009-10-30, 07:27 PM

Demons are a nice cheap army, but they're also considered to be a cheesy twink army. Even a bad demon list will slaughter most armies.

It's not that they should never be played, but you won't end up very popular if they're all you play.

Demons are also a bad beginner army because they ignore many of the rules of the game.

Say does a bloodthirster get a bonus attack for two hand weapons?

Not unless it states "2 hand weapons" as its equipment. Anyway, trying to weazel an extra attack out of a bloodthirster is petty.

Erloas

2009-10-30, 07:49 PM

A bloodthrister would get an extra attack for a second hand weapon, but he can't get a second hand weapon so it is a moot point. Since you can't get the bonus from a magic weapon and regular weapon, and he has no option to choose a second hand weapon. While he is shown with a whip and an axe it clearly states in the profile that they count as a single hand weapon.

If you want a cheap army that will limit you to mostly deamonettes and bloodletters, since all core troops are the same cost per model and they come in sets of 10 for the price of 5 metal models of the other choices.

Most of the special and rare units end up at a fairly similiar dollar per 4-5 points worth of model, so any of the choices will be about equal in the goal to get started as cheap as you can.

I'm really surprised to not see the mounted daemonettes of slaanesh any more, seeing as how they are still in the army book and they used to have models. I'm wondering if it had to do with boobs and nipples, since those models hide nothing, the other daemonettes did too, but those were remade, the only other model I can think of that also shows them are the Morathi model and that hasn't been changed or removed. Also harpies (sans nipples, but completely bare) are still there and there is a WE dryad that kind of has them, but it is kind of a tree too, so many that doesn't count. At any rate...

A box of daemonettes or bloodletters will run about 120-175 depending on how much command and if you give them a magic banner or not. Plaguebearers and flamers are the same, though it takes 2 boxes of them to make the minimum unit size.
Most of the special and rare choices run 70-100ish points per box.
Chaos spawns (from warriors of Chaos) might make some pretty good fiends of slaneesh or beasts of nurgle, and they would be a bit cheaper since you get two. Though you can only use 1 rare choice until 2k.

For hero choices, prior to 2k you are limited to heralds and a few herald like special characters (and mount options). Most heralds sans mount are 150ish when equiped. Given that heralds really boost up the power or suvivability of your troops you should probably look at getting 2-3 of them of matching types to run with your troops. You can't take any of the greater deamons until you get Lord choices, so 2000+ games. They don't have much for herald models now, but there are some warriors of chaos models that might work well for some choices.

At 1000 points I would look at 3-4 troop choices (daemons have very good troops) 2 heralds, and 2-3 special and rare choices.

Of course right now thats just a guideline sort of list. If you want me to build a specific list I can do that. You should at least pick 1-2 gods for me to work with for that though.

YPU

2009-10-31, 02:58 PM

Don’t worry, I’m not trying to weasel out that extra attack, but it wouldn’t be the fist time GW wrote one thing and meant something slightly different.

Making heralds myself really wont be a problem sounds like fine challenge to me, actually I already started working on a tzeentch herald as a large empty robe with a staff and book. Or this one (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1380002&prodId=prod1050018) could work.

Actually, about that. I saw a conversion somewhere that had emptied nightgoblin cloaks as flamers, looked OK and considering it’s a 1.5 euro per model VS 5 euro per model is kind of worth it. Would need to get bases for them tough. (pretty much all deaons are 25mm aren’t they?)

Seekers can be made from spider riders and normal deamonettes torsos.
Flesh hounds can easily be represented by WoC hounds.
Yea I don’t have much money right now, and I really want to get back into fantasy, had a bit to much 40K for now, need a more even mix.

I’m pretty sure nobody in my gaming group would mind me playing a army that’s cheesy by nature. (I wont use anything munchkiny tough, deamons are enough by themselves as you mentioned) I am the guy who gets beaten pretty much always, so it would perhaps even be a nice way to challenge my regular opponents again.

I was thinking to get a decent split of gods in the eventual 2K army. At 1K it should mostly be khorne and one other I guess, probably slaanesh since they have plastics, , but to be honest I don’t really like the new demonettes myself.

YPU

2009-11-04, 05:33 PM

Thought for 1000 point army, something I could spray and dip in a few days. Two heralds of khorne one general and one army standard. Three ten bloodletter units full command each, two units of five bloodhounds. Using some warriors of chaos characters with bloodletter heads (you do get spare ones right?), perhaps skulltakers as army general instead. I might be fiercely miscalculating, but between demonic gifts and magic banners that seems like a 1000pts force just under 100 euro’s. Its very resistant to magic and the hounds can hunt down archers, in no way a highly versatile army, but unmistakably brutal.

thorgrim29

2009-11-04, 07:28 PM

the bizarre circumstance of Empire being outnumbered by chaos.

Eh.... Brings me back to a game a few years back (7e orcs had just come out), whre I played my dwarf horde. I played, if memory serves, 5 infantry units (2 warriors, 2 longbeards, 1 hammerer, all 20+ strong) 2 small units of thunderers, a lord on shield, a thane of pain (4 strength 5 attacks hitting first) and a runesmiths, along with an organ gun and maybe a catapult. The other guy had two giants, 2 lobbers, and a few big units of orcs and goblins. It was a fun game, for me.

Eldan

2009-11-06, 08:02 AM

So, it's been, I guess, about six years since I last played Warhammer Fantasy. At that time all my friends changed over to 40k and I followed.
Ashtar has offered to lend me his rulebook, so my woefully outdated and fuzzy memories of the rules can be refreshed.

I heard a new Skaven codex is coming out soon. Does anyone know when that would be? Because it seems I can't find any data on that on the GW homepage...

dsmiles

2009-11-06, 08:04 AM

Hey.
I'm a 40K'er playing Tau. What would be a good WHFB army for me? I don't know much about WHFB, and am looking for shooty tactics like the Tau.

Eldan

2009-11-06, 08:08 AM

If you want my totally outdated opinion: my neighbour once had a dark elf army consisting almost only of repeater ballistae and crossbows. They were painful and quite, quite shooty. However, warhammer tends to be less shooty and more blocks of infantry, from what I remember. Formations marching and all that stuff.
You can, however, get ridiculous amounts of magic lightning, as my friend with his six or so goblin shamans once proved. I'm also in love with the skaven ratling gun and warlock, who can also shoot lightning via crazy warp technology.

Dark Faun

2009-11-06, 08:22 AM

I think there are actually very few armies that can't be excessively shooty. Chaos comes to mind. But Dwarves, Elves of any kind, Empire? Shooty overkill.

YPU

2009-11-06, 09:57 AM

The ultimate in shootynes would be wood elves. They don’t have artillery but they do have what is probably the best ranged weapon for their core archers.

Some armies have doubles in the other system, deamons ofcourse but others as well, this is because 40k pretty much started out as a funny side project, literally warhammer in space. Anyhow, the tau were added in much later and thus don’t have one.

dsmiles

2009-11-06, 10:20 AM

Yeah, I know. Tau and 'Nids were added later with no WHFB equivalent.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will do some research on the Wood Elves.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-11-06, 10:36 AM

I heard a new Skaven codex is coming out soon. Does anyone know when that would be? Because it seems I can't find any data on that on the GW homepage...

They're out already in the UK I think. When I last went into a GW last week they were looking at the army book but hadn't released it yet.

Wood elves have good shooting from their archers, but honestly I'd take Dwarves, Empire or Dark Elves for their artillery. Empire, Wood Elves and Darkelves both have mounted fast cavalry ranged units that can be fun but inaccurate. The Empire's hochland long rifles make them almost as good at sniping as wood elves and their detatchment system makes them good at fielding armies where the ranged and melee troops can work together. If High Elves still had seaguard I'd recommend them as well, but shadow warriors are still quite good as a unit that can fight equally well in melee and ranged. Wood elves also have dyrads and treemen though, so if you like them go for wood elves.

Tomb Kings aren't so bad at ranged combat either.

Erloas

2009-11-06, 10:55 AM

I heard a new Skaven codex is coming out soon. Does anyone know when that would be? Because it seems I can't find any data on that on the GW homepage...

I believe they are either being released tomorrow or in a week. I think its usually the 7th or 15th for most of their releases and Skaven are in November.

As for a Tau like army... Well that would pretty much be any of the gunlines. Empire, Dwarfs and Skaven can all do it. The various elf armies all have shooting, but for the most part I don't think they can win most games with them, their bows just don't have the strength of the gunpowder weapons of the other armies. I've been playing DE a long time, and while their shooting is decent I've never seen it as being able to win a fight on its own. They generally lack the high powered weapons to take down big things, yes they HE and DE have bolt throwers, but 2 in a sub 2k game, and even 4 in 2k isn't likely to be enough to take down many heavily armored units.
The Wood Elves have a lot more mobility in their shooting, which the Tau can do, though not all Tau players do.

Gunlines though aren't all that fun to play with or against in Fantasy. They aren't as bad in 40k because the game is built around lots of shooting. What you generally end up with using gunlines is you either win big or loose big and it really has little to do with how good of a player you are, you basically just roll dice and hope for the best. If the opponent has what they need and know how to deal with a gunline then you are going to get wasted and if they don't you win.

Astrella

2009-11-06, 11:07 AM

I personally think Wood Elves would be a good analogy for the Tau. I know Wood Elves are better in close combat, but just like the tau, they are a very manoeuvrable force that relies on applying the right amount of pressure at the right time at the right location.

hamishspence

2009-11-06, 11:20 AM

Yeah, I know. Tau and 'Nids were added later with no WHFB equivalent.

True- but there may be a very crude approximation to the Nids- maybe the Lizardmen? They appear to have similar crests, especially the carnosaur and the Saurus.

Tyranid Warrior- Kroxigor
Genestealer- Saurus
Termagant- Skink
Biovore- Razordon?
Carnifex- Stegodon
Hive Tyrant- a bit like a hybrid of Slaan and Saurus on Carnosaur
Tyrantl Guard- Tyrant Guard
Gargoyles- Terradons
Lictors- Chameleon Skinks

Its not a precise match up, but is it anywhere close?

hamishspence

2009-11-06, 12:10 PM

I wonder if anyone has deliberately made "parallel armies" so to speak, for both 40K and Fantasy with each unit in Fantasy having it's 40K counterpart which plays approximately the same role- and themed them in the same way.

And if the armies can be quite playable in both.

I recall an old White dwarf article on a Chaos Lord called Steppenwolf- who was represented in a dozen or more ways, from Fantasy Lord on foot, to 40K Terminator Lord- but all had the same head- an Atillan one.

Dark Faun

2009-11-06, 12:55 PM

If High Elves still had seaguard
They still do. In fact, Lothern's sea guard went from limited to only one to as many as you want.

Woot Spitum

2009-11-06, 02:58 PM

As a Wood Elf player, I would definately caution you against picking them if you want an army that just sits back and shoots. With the Wood Elves, the role of your shooting is to lure the enemy to a specific area of the battlefield, where you then charge them with multiple units. The other purpose is to neutralize enemy shooting before it can hurt your unarmored, low toughness elves too much. Infantry and cavalry do most of the killing for the Wood Elves.

That being said, if you like the idea of playing a highly mobile army that isolates enemy units and destroys them with several units, always staying out of reach of the enemy's main force, you may enjoy the Wood Elves. If you prefer to hunker down in one spot and shoot the enemy to death, you might enjoy one of the gun armies (Dwarves, Empire, and to a certain extent, Skaven) more.

Eldan

2009-11-07, 07:15 AM

So, stripping paint of minis... I've never done it, what do I need? Now that a new skaven codex is out and Ashtar's been friendly enough to lend me his copy of the newest edition of the rules, I want to dig out these old aberrations I have bestowed upon the world and repaint them. How do I start?

Astrella

2009-11-07, 07:16 AM

Oh, Avian from the Warseer Forums has a nice guide about stripping paint on his site. Linky (http://www.avianon.net/pictures/paint_stripping.php)

Eldan

2009-11-07, 08:03 AM

Hmm. Now I just have to find out what exactly "Green Soap" is (luckily, he names the active ingredient) and where I can get it. Thanks.

Ashtar

2009-11-07, 08:22 AM

I use caustic soda (Sodium hydroxide (NaOH)) to strip the paint off minis. Usually found in oven cleaning products.

I refer you to The ever insane's paint stripping page (http://www.paintingclinic.com/clinic/guestarticles/removingpaint3.htm).

Eldan

2009-11-07, 08:28 AM

Hmm. I have some oven cleaner around. I'll have to check if that actually contains NaOH, but it could work.

Ashtar

2009-11-07, 08:37 AM

What I do is put some heavy cleaning gloves take some oven cleaner, put it in a glass jar, pour a bit of hot water into it and dunk the minis-in. 12 hours later, they are ready. If you are lucky enough to have the spray version it could go much faster. By the way, test it with 1 or 2 minis first before doing the whole batch.

SmartAlec

2009-11-07, 09:22 AM

If you're willing to wait a week, then cheap coca-cola is pretty good at getting paint off minis. Put them in a tub with the coke, change the coke every couple of days, and brush them with a toothbrush after a week and hey presto.

Eldan

2009-11-07, 09:25 AM

Reeeaaally. Well, I'd have to go and buy supplies anyway. If the store doesn't have anything containing NaOH, I'll get coke, then.

Eldan

2009-11-10, 12:09 PM

Got the new Skaven codex today. Interesting, really. Seems they got some new warmachines for their weapon teams which do not have models yet... also, clan rats got cheaper, including equipment.

Also, hooray for the return of the Doomwheel!

Edit: Vermin Lords can learn the 13th spell. Complexity 25+ and absolutely awesome.

Eldan

2009-11-10, 04:08 PM

Sorry for the multipost, but:
First idea for a 500 pts. army:

Warlock Engineer, upgraded to level 1 wizard with warp lightning

20 clanrats, shields, claw leader, banner, musician, ratling gun

20 clanrats, spears and shields, banner, musician, warpfire thrower

20 skavenslaves, no extras

10 giant rats, 2 packmasters.

Close combat horde with some fire support. Does that seem to work? It's been years since I last played fantasy.
For 1000 pts, I'll include Stormvermin, Rat Ogres and Nightrunners.

Erloas

2009-11-10, 05:37 PM

It looks pretty good for 500 points. Of course none of the rest of us have the new army book to say too much specifically. 2 full units, a caster, a flanker and a sacrificial unit is pretty good. Not a huge amount of variations even available in that small of a game.

Eldan

2009-11-10, 05:59 PM

Yeah.
No one has the new book yet? It's damn cool. Doom Wheels, Vermin Lords...

Skaven have two schools of magic now, doom and plague. The vermin lord has a 13th spell. It has 25 complexity and turns an enemy unit into a unit of clan rats (or 4d6 models of that unit). I'm half done painting the giant rats. Stripping all my warriors and the warlock comes next.

Ashtar

2009-11-10, 06:54 PM

Ahhhh! I still haven't had time to go and pick it up. >><< Maybe tomorrow I hope, otherwise it'll have to be late Friday.

Cracklord

2009-11-10, 07:54 PM

I was looking at my Dwarf army (now over 300 models) and realized I have the first dwarf model ever built, from the heroquest game. I also have the dwarf from warhammer quest, and plenty of new ones. I have two models of Thorgrimm Grudgebearer, fourteen special characters, and thirty heroes and lords. I have at least one unit of every possible equipment choice, and can make pretty much any army I want.

But I am tired of dwarves. I want to charge for a change. Any advice for a dark Elf army? Preferably one directly from Har Graef, city of Executioners, as I love the temple of Khaine.

Erloas

2009-11-10, 09:35 PM

But I am tired of dwarves. I want to charge for a change. Any advice for a dark Elf army? Preferably one directly from Har Graef, city of Executioners, as I love the temple of Khaine.

Going from Dwarfs to DE is probably one of the biggest changes you can make. Only thing more so would be a hordier army without artillery like O&G.

The temple of Khaine also includes Witch Elves and assassins. And of course none of them are core choices. Really we need something more to work off of to get an idea of what you want to do.

Executioners are good, but I don't really see how they could be a cornerstone to an army. They are a great support unit.

I'm assuming you want a more aggressive list.

I still believe normal Warriors make a great backbone to any army. The repeaters are good for support, they throw a lot of dice but they don't have the str to be a game winner against most opponents. Some people love Corsairs, and while I love the models I don't generally field them that often. They are a little expensive to be used in large (20+) blocks and with two hand weapons or hand bows they are better used as a support or flanking unit, or to protect flanks. All of which the special choices do better. They do make good screens for executioners and witch elves though.

I would never play a game without some Dark Riders. They are great for war machine hunting, protecting flanks or hitting flanks, or just baiting other units out.

I like the cold one knights and I generally take them instead of executioners because they fill about the same roll, high str attacks to take down heavily armored foes. They do however have better speed and can get to the flanks more easily where they will decimate just about everything.

WEs are great for mass attacks, and while they won't be that dangerous against calvarly they will be invaluable against larger blocks of infantry from just about every army. With poison they are also good against monsters.

The cauldron of blood is better then it used to be. As far as I can tell it can now move, there is nothing saying it is stationary like it used to be, it just says its a war machine and war machines can be moved. Its ability isn't a shooting attack, so its not move or shoot, so you could advance it with your lines to some extent (just slower).

If I were going for a khainite list I would probably use the executioners in place of chariots and knights.
I would probably go with a unit of 20 warriors, 2 units of dark riders, 2 units of 12-15 (2x6 or 3x5) executioners, and a unit of WEs of the same size. I would probably also get a Death Hag with a cauldron of blood. Depending on how aggressive you wanted to be I would either take some bolt throwers, 2 sorceresses, and 1-2 units of 10 crossbow warriors if you wanted to be a bit more defensive and force your opponent to come to you then counter charge them. Or for a more aggressive list maybe a hydra, and 1-2 units of corsairs, still either 2 sorceresses or a defensive sorceress and a dread lord or another hag. For either you could probably slip an assassin in 1-2 of the units, probably the maim warrior squad, and maybe on of the corsairs or crossbowmen, but I probably wouldn't go with too many of them.

Would give a fair well balanced set list that should have the tools to handle most opponents. However gunlines might cause a bit of a problem with only 2 fast units (the DR) that are fairly weak to enemy fire. Thats probably fairly high in points, but you might be able to fit a small unit of harpies or shades in, but I don't see them as being a huge threat to most gunlines. You just don't have the survivability and speed that Cold Ones bring to help deal with gunlines.

Cracklord

2009-11-11, 03:19 AM

Erloas

2009-11-11, 10:32 AM

Zealots, so I want to focus on combat. Therefore, no crossbows, bolt throwers or the like. Cold one knights are fine.
I generally play against High Elves and Orcs and Goblins. Sometimes Chaos. And yes, I know it's a complete change, that's why I'm going for it.

Everyone so far has told me how awesome cold One Knights are, so I've already bought a box. I was thinking of buying a battalion next.

Knights in every army are good (with the exception of Heavy Horsemen for the Tomb Kings, which aren't really knights at all). I do know some people that don't take Cold Ones though because of stupidity, because while they should pass it most of the time they always seem to fail at the worst possible times.

The only reason I didn't suggest knights is because you said you wanted a khainite list from Hag Graef, and an army from there with the khainite theme would have to include some, probably 2, units of Executioners. (they are great looking models) In my mind knights and executioners fill the same role on the battlefield and so I usually see them as one or the other. Of course once you get to 2k and 4 specials you could do WE+2xExec+COKs. Its always the issue with DE where you run out of special choices before you get what you want.

Of course now the Black Guard are the big thing. They are a great tar pit unit and can do some damage at the same time. I don't however have any models yet so I haven't used them. Warriors in large blocks make good anvils, though maybe not as good, and for the time being that is good enough for me.

With the knights I always either run them 5-6 and sometimes with a hero. They are just too expensive points-wise to justify the rank bonus and its just too big of a loss when that stupidity comes up. I generally keep them fairly cheap as shock troops rather then some people that make large units, give them the BSB and an expensive standard and expect them to win the game for them.

Chariots are nice because they can give that push a block of warriors needs to break almost any unit and they don't have to get on the flank to do it. They aren't nearly as appealing now that they aren't a 2 for 1 special choice, but its not too bad since they can be taken as a character mount directly. A character in a chariot also gives the magic US5 to negate ranks if you can get it into the flank.

I really haven't got to use the Hag, so I couldn't really compare them to a master. Really just depends on what units you want them to lead. The master can also be a great war machine or character hunter if you stick them on a pegasus, even a horse has enough speed to get them where they need to go quickly, though the pegasus gives more killing power. Dragons and manticores are also an option of course, but they will draw a lot more fire (and points) to do the same things.

As for the crossbows and bolt throwers, I still take them, even with offensive lists. Without the bolt throwers you don't have a huge amount to deal with large enemy monsters. Magic isn't really reliable enough for monster hunting. Without weakening a giant before it hits your lines its going to cause some damage, about the only thing that will reliably take it is WEs, and that is if they get the charge. COKs and Exec can do pretty good, but don't have the number of attacks needed to reliably take them down in a single round, and if they don't most of them won't live through a giant's attacks. Against monsters with a better armor save COKs and Exec will do just as well, but the WEs are going to be less effective.
Crossbows can move up with your forces and still shoot, albeit more slowly. They aren't really a threat to most large units, but they are great for taking out fast cav and other things trying to run a flank.
With both types I don't expect them to really kill a whole lot (unlike empire and dwarf handguns and cannons). I use them to shape the battlefield. Put them in places to keep the enemy from going there, and try to push their units where you want them to be. I don't see them functioning in the same way as a gunline from other armies at all. For comparison the bolt thrower, even with its multi-shot is equivalent to 6 dwarf thunderers or about 8 empire handgunners, and you will have at most 4 of them in 2000 points (usually 2 is enough for me) and as you should know thats really only like 1, maybe 2 units of rifles which is not much. With their single shot they are then a threat to monsters too, but they aren't as destructive as cannons. I wouldn't dismiss them just because you are trying to differentiate this army from your dwarf army.

Ent

2009-11-13, 12:32 PM

Where does a new LM go after getting a regiment of (16) Saurus and (24) Skinks?

My one and only opponent is going Empire and we're probably going to start at 500 points.

Eldan

2009-11-13, 12:40 PM

You'll need a hero to play general, basically. No idea what kind of heroes the lizards have, but get one. I prefer wizards as my hero, but they'll probably also have a kind of more combat-focused one, if you prefer that. Then, assuming that the skinks are flankers/ranged (I'm really not good with lizards, only fought them once, years ago) and the Saurus are heavy infantry, I'd get a second infantry unit, something slightly lighter. That should bring you to about 500.

Erloas

2009-11-13, 01:16 PM

Where does a new LM go after getting a regiment of (16) Saurus and (24) Skinks?

My one and only opponent is going Empire and we're probably going to start at 500 points.

Its too bad you couldn't have started with the Battalion box.

You are close to 500 points, all you need is a hero to make a legal army. At that small of games I tend to go for fighting heroes rather then casters because you just don't have the points to get enough casting power to make them useful. They become much more viable at 1000 points where you can afford at least 2 heros.

Now that skinks can go skirmishers or not they can be used as decent flanking units because they have some speed. I would probably field 12 as skirmishers and 12 as rank-and-file.

Against empire you are going to be seeing some shooting, though maybe not at this small of games. If you do use your skirmishers to screen for both of your other units while you advance.

The only options you have that are faster are Cold One Riders and Teradons, both of which should be pretty good at closing on enemy shooting units. Although you aren't really going to have points for them until you get around 1k lists.

At this point I would simply pick up a combat hero and learn the game. Once you have the basics of the game down and are looking to expand to larger games I would pick up a battalion box and a skink priest or two. You'll always have uses for more skinks and saurus warriors will have a place in most lists.
Which would give you a very solid base for your army for most any direction you would want to take it. After that you can look at picking up hunting packs, stegadons, kroxigors and such.
The stegadons are cool, but not possible at 500 points. They are possible at 1k but it will limit your other choices a fair amount. Once you get to 1500 they are easy enough to take. The issue with using them at 1k is generally that it will force the game to revolve around that one single unit. Your opponent will either have the ranged firepower (cannons and handguns) to take it down before it makes it anywhere or they won't and it will decimate them, so the game comes down more to what you brought then how you use it. Once you get to 1500+ then there are enough points that opponents have ways of dealing with a wider range of threats without having to tailor their list to specific opponents.

Ent

2009-11-13, 01:37 PM

Erloas, thank you for the advice. My first purchase was mostly based on a very good eBay deal; though I can see the Battalion is a good buy, I'm waiting for a good price since we're only aiming for 500 atm.

I think I want to try a Skink Priest and a Saurus Scar-Veteran with nothing fancy (just a few points of additional equipment/upgrades) with the Skinks broken up in two groups of ten, and the Saurus Warriors as a solid block of 16 to start learning.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-11-19, 09:41 PM

Completely pwned Chaos again. Wiped out every model on the board and only lost a single unit (my helblaster). Not very proud of it though because my list was kind of unfair (2 special characters, 2 units of knights, no core infantry blocks) but he did have that flying Chaos special character, who would have been nasty if she hadn't spent the whole game tied up by my greatswords after she killed my helblaster crew, only to be quickly dispatched by Karl Franz after he'd dealt with the rest of her army, wiping out a unit of chaos knights on his own and helped a unit of knights and a warrior priest wipe out a unit of chaos warriors by killing their exalted hero in a challange and getting a ton of over-kill from Ghal Maraz' extra wounds.

Funnily enough I had built an army with tons of magic defence and his special character meant he didn't have any points for wizards.

Hopefully I'll be playing against Vampire Counts soon so I can break my winning streak. Though I did buy the new Vampire Counts book and once I get my models from home to Uni I was thinking of fielding this list:

Characters
Vampire Lord - 520
Avatar of Death, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Walach's Bloody Hauberk, Sword of Battle, Gem of Blood, Abyssal Terror (going to play him like an old school blood dragon and just fly around the board on his skeletal pegasus challanging characters)

Necromancer - 120
invocation of nehek, 2 dispel scrolls, Vanhel's Dance Macabre

Necromancer -120
nightmare, book of Arkhan, Black periapt, raise dead, Vanhel's Dance Macabre

Wight King - 225
Battle Standard, Drakenhof Banner (boring I know)

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors - 210
Full Command, Spears, Banner of Helfire

17 Skeleton Warriors - 181
Skeleton Champion
Full Command, Standard of Hellish Vigour

20 Zombies - 92
Full Command

Corpse Cart - 100
Unholy Lodestone (might swap out for more skeletons, but my skeletons are really old and I don't know how many are unbroken)

Special
15 Grave Guard - 235
Full Command, Banner of the Dead Legion

8 Black Knights - 309
Barding, Full Command, Banner of the Barrows

5 Black knights - 195
Full Command, Royal Standard of Strigos

3 Fel Bats - 60

I wanted to make a balanced fluffy list rather than an all powerful horde. My backstory is that the general was a questing knight who got turned on his quest and became a warrior-hermit style blood dragon. Still loyal to the ideals he held in life, occaisonally he joins up with some renegade damsels and leads his force of undead knights and men at arms to protect the people of Bretonnia.

Penguinizer

2009-12-06, 02:18 PM

I've been wanting to figure out a good Warriors of Chaos 1000 point list for some time now. I've had some success with the following list:

Hero:
Exalted Hero
Mark of Khorne
Juggernaut
Axe of Khorne
Shield
Bloodcurdling roar (Mainly as filler.))

General:
Sorcerer
Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch (depends on what mood I'm in.)
Level 2
Book of Secrets
Brass Collar of Khorne (Mainly to give the chosen the benefit of MR 2.)

core:
5x Marauder Horsemen
Light Armor
Flails
Chieftain and Standard

5x Marauder Horsemen
Light Armor
Flails
Chieftain and Standard

10 Warhounds

Special:
7x Chosen
Mark of Khorne
Great Weapons
Champion, Musician and Standard,
Favor of the Gods for the champion.

Rare:
Scyla Angrifimm

This should come to 1000 points, unless I've calculated wrong.

The list has potential to hit pretty hard, but it still lacks a lot of survivability. It also can't really take a charge and it relies on being able to either wipe the unit, or cause them to run away. The lack of large infantry units makes it very vulnerable to shooting. Could anyone help me refine the army?

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-06, 03:08 PM

I've only ever fought against Chaos (only loosing to a 2 war alter list after wasting points on maneaters and halberdiers) but I can try and help.

Bloodcurdling roar (Mainly as filler.))

Don't take filler like that unless you don't have the models because you don't have the money.

General:
Sorcerer
Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch (depends on what mood I'm in.)
Level 2
Book of Secrets
Brass Collar of Khorne (Mainly to give the chosen the benefit of MR 2.)

I'd make the Exalted Hero the General. The leadership is the same but he's more survivable.

Collar of Khorne on a non Khorne character sounds like bad form to me. Magic Resistance 2 isn't that useful in a 1000 point game anyway since the only army that's going to be magic heavy at that level are tzeentch demons (you lose unless you get into combat quick enough) or Vampire Counts (only have 2 spells that magic resistance works against). A dispel scroll would probably be better if its the same points. Magic Resistance on a tough unit is a good idea though. It's hilarious when three wizards waste their magic blasting away at one unit when they could have wiped out the rest of your army easily.

core:
5x Marauder Horsemen
Light Armor
Flails
Chieftain and Standard x2

Those guys can be devastating on the charge, but most of the time they'll just panic from shooting or give your enemies free victory points from the standard. I would swap the standard for a musician, then you can take advantage of your fast cavalry ability to move in the same turn you rally. If they're going to get into combat, you should be getting the flank charge in to support an infantry block and since combat resolution bonuses of the same type don't stack the standard is pointless.

The light armour is pointless against empire or dwarves because their armour piercing guns will completely reduce your saving throw.

Only battle I saw two marauder horsemen units in was the 2 war alter list I lost against, and in that battle both units died but still contrabuted to my loss by slowing down the hard hitting units I had on my flanks.

10 Warhounds

Never seen anyone use a 10 strong warhound unit. Use two units of 5 instead. Be aware that they'll be dead or panicked by turn 2 and use them to screen your main units from shooting or slow your enemy down by march blocking.

Except you don't really have any main units, so you're only option will be to hold back with them and use them as crappy overpriced marauders.

7x Chosen
Mark of Khorne
Great Weapons
Champion, Musician and Standard,
Favor of the Gods for the champion.

Too much of a point sink in a 1000 point game. I've never seen chosen make their points back. In one game they fled from one charge of my Reiksguard and in another they spent the whole game tied up by nightgobin spearmen and those were full units of at least 15 chosen.

The mark of khorne means that a cheap 90 (30 if you're fighting another chaos player) point unit of fast cavalry will be able to make you completely dance to their tune. Your hounds and marauderers can stop that by screening them but not if they panic from shooting.

Just use your chosen models as normal warriors.

Having a single hard hitting infantry unit in a mostly cavalry force is a bad idea since 80% of your army will have reached the enemy and be getting slaughtered before your chosen are half way across the board. If you hold back and force the enemy to come to you then you can use the cavalry for flank charges and be very effective, but if you want to do that you should be playing Empire or Elves (or Bretonians with a nonstandard list).

Scyla Angrifimm

Never seen him use. Spawn tend to die easily when unsupported and be too unreliable to use as support. Scyla might be able to soak up some magic if you throw him in front of your army but don't expect him to do anything apart from tie up an enemy unit for 2 turns due to his unbreakableness. Scyla's extra (average) speed over a normaly spawn might let you hit a tough unit early and delay them while your tough units break his weaker ones, but that's about the only use I can see for him.

Your list seems to be using too many expensive models to make up the points. If you don't have the money for a better 1000 point army at this stage, I would suggest asking for 500-750 point games instead or just using your list and get experiance from it for when you can make a better list.

Penguinizer

2009-12-06, 03:39 PM

Sometime in the future, I'll probably end up getting some Marauders to replace some of the horsemen. I'll end up using those along with the warhounds to support the chosen unit. Scyla is mainly there to tie up other units in combat.

Right now, it'll end up having to wait until I can find some good deals on used models.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-06, 06:01 PM

I would buy more warriors rather than marauderers, since they're the same monetary price. Marauders are brilliant as fodder troops (as good as my Empire elite troops :smalleek:) but you need a solid block of decent troops for them to support. Marauders tend to break if you hit them hard and the Chaos players I fight tend to hide them behind the better armoured troops so by the time they get to fight all the Chaos hard hitters are already dead. That said they're probably a better choice than Chaos Knights (which are just a bad set of roles away from breaking against the theoretically inferior and cheaper points value knights of other races) at this point in building your army.

One thing I would definately advise against are Chaos Ogres. You don't want to spend that many points on anything with leadership 7.

You could just save up for the batalion box, but since you don't need more warhounds it isn't necessary the best option even if it comes with 'free' stuff.

Solaris

2009-12-07, 05:22 PM

Alrighty. Like I said in my other post ('cause I'm a genius when it comes to spotting threads...) I'm a new WE player. The other guys I'm playing with are looking for the games to be vicinity 2k points, but fortunately my preferred play style of high-mobility guerrilla tactics is a bit beyond them. Our first battle was... ugly. 4k points to a team. We randomly selected teams, so it wound up with a Warriors of Chaos player and a Tomb Kings player going up against me (Wood Elves), a Goblin player (almost no orcs), and a Dwarf player.

The Chaos and TK were about 2k apiece, while my elves were about 1.5k (and the other two came up with about 1700 between 'em). I was hero-heavy, with an ancient treeman protecting the dwarven cannons, an alter kindred noble staging to come in behind the combined spider rider-glade rider attack, and a spellsinger for lulz. I'd put the spellsinger in with a unit of 12 dryads to act as the quick-reaction force in about the middle of our deployment area. I had 8 scouts that I deployed behind enemy lines, two lines of 10 glade guards apiece (each with musicians, standard bearers, and lord's bowmen - was that a waste? We really couldn't find what the musicians and bearers did in the little pocket booklet our Goblin player brought because he wasn't bright enough to realize we needed the full book) on either side of the board, and 8 glade riders with a noble (spear, longbow, light armor, shield, and a Blight of Terrors) lined up on the same flank as Archeon and two strong units of Chaos Knights.

The 8 scouts, while now affectionately dubbed the "Pa-Ting Pa-Ting Suicide Squad" because they deployed behind a block of skeletons that just turned around (can they reform and change facing for free?) and shot 'em up when the Liche Priest they were annoying could've wiped 'em out by himself. Still, the Suicide Squad did serve their purpose - they tied up a Liche Priest and a couple units of skeleton archers who would've otherwise done some serious damage to my line of glade guard archers.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get Archeon to charge at the glade riders in the time we had left. We were only able to get into three turns. My plan had been for me to bait him into one charge, have him fail that because of the woods standing between us (I was able to judge the distance, but the Chaos player wasn't), but have the glade guard stand and shoot the first charge. The spellsinger casts tree singing, just to make Archeon's player angry, then next time he charged the glade guard was to flee.
I'll admit, a key part of that plan was to get the uberhero to start pounding on my teammates (who don't flee nearly so well as I do) because the goblin player put his goblin spearmen behind my archers and refused to move them into combat. In general, that goblin player is astonishingly... well, stupid. Does anyone have some tactics/advice that I can give him? He's got some spider riders, a bunch of goblin archers, and a bunch of goblin spears.

My team was pretty much screwed from the get-go, 'cause I was the only one of us three who could think tactically (I play a lot of RTSes, they don't) and the other two didn't start listening until after I'd cleaned up half the Chaos units with my archers. I got lucky; the Chaos player didn't start charging until the second turn.

I did make the mistake of attacking the TK player's bone giant with my glade guard. I would've done better to attack the block of skeleton archers standing next to the bone giant, considering there was no way the giant could've caught the archers to do damage.

Another mistake I made was in having the dryads as a QRF. It was good planning, I think, because the TK are good for bringing in units behind my lines, but I probably should pick up a unit of cavalry to do that job. Most likely my glade riders once I pick up a unit of wild riders. The ancient treeman wasn't enough to cover two cannons by himself - the TK player brought in a unit of skeletons behind them and killed one of the crews before the treeman charged 'em and murderized dem bones. (The treeman had a Cluster of Radiants, a Murder of Spites, and a Blight of Terrors). In hindsight, we probably would have done better to have the Dwarf player deploy a lot of his troops in a defensive perimeter around his cannons, making it too tight for the skeletons to come up into.

One guy in particular will be a problem. He's a Chaos player who likes Archeon. My best bet, I think, is to have some shooters annoy the crap out of him while I deal with the rest of his underpowered army. In our first battle, I managed to slaughter his unit of 5 Chaos Knights with a line of 10 Glade Guards, then repeat performance with his other unit of 5 Chaos Knights. He goes hero-heavy, leaving the rest of his army rather underpowered - especially compared to the WE's commando style.

The Tomb Kings - are their incantations not dispellable? The player tried rule-lawyering it, saying they weren't because they're incantations, not spells, but I let it slide because that meant he couldn't dispel our dwarf's runes (now if only the dwarf player would've actually used them). He didn't let me look through his army book to determine if it was actually stated. They're a high-magic army, though. That'll be a problem for my magic-starved elfsies.

The dwarf player was pretty decent. He didn't really do anything, but at least he used his two cannons (until they got taken out by a buncha skeletons from beneath). He seems a lot like a turtle player - I think my best bet when facing him is to quickly rush in under his guns and take 'em out, then pick off his dwarfs at leisure. He didn't use any of his ranged warriors, instead letting my inferior glade guards do all the shooting. He kept all of his army on the second line, but not back where they could've done some good protecting his cannons. I think he was expecting the other team to charge (which would've gotten my guards to flee through his ranks, and assuming he made the leadership checks that could've gone really badly for the enemy).

The goblin player... I got nothin' good to say about him except he started following orders for the second (and last because of time constraints) turn. He didn't use his caster, didn't use his archers, didn't use his spider riders, and didn't use his spearmen. The only thing he used was his rock lobba, which did manage to score a few kills.

All in all, my group's a bunch of new guys who're turning into rule lawyers. The game kept bogging down as someone kept demanding to see the book, and of course the slow-reading goblin player wouldn't give it up until after he'd found the rule entry. They didn't like it when I started using my lawyer-fu against 'em.
They wondered why I said I don't think I'd be playing with them a second time - I may be new to Warhammer, but I've played enough tabletop to know the difference between spirit and intent on a rule. The game itself is fun enough, but those players killed it. I think I'm going to try playing at The Comic Book Shop instead.

One thing that came up. Does anyone play it that you have to guess the range for your artillery? The weasels tried saying that, because the dwarf player had guessed short, the shot was ineffective - I made 'em go through and roll the rest of it (windage and variance) anyways. After that, the range was known 'cause I'd keep track of the movements and told the dwarf player how far to shoot. It still seemed... I'unno, kinda slimy to me. It's following rules as written, but I didn't get the feeling that was how they were supposed to be.

In other news, for being such a simple paint job I'm really liking basecoating dryads with Skull White and then giving them a coat of Devlan Mud. I'm planning on drybrushing Bleached Bone to give it the right yellow cast - B'Bone might be even better for a basecoat than S'White was. Pics in the model thread once I get the whole army done.

Erloas

2009-12-07, 05:38 PM

Well, I don't have time to cover everything right now so I'll get what I can before work is over...

First, mixed army games *never* work well in my experience. They will almost never lead to good games, at least not games where you are going to learn the mechanics of the game and how an army actually plays.
Second, you should probably limit your games to maybe 1000 or 1500 at most until you guys learn the rules better.

First, incantations from TK can be dispelled, they go off as a bound magic item with a power level of d6 or 2d6 (depending who cast it) and can be dispelled accordingly, they do go off automatically even if the roll is a 1, it just takes a single dispel die to guarantee the spell is dispelled though.

The dwarf runes can't be dispelled, its not magic, it just happens. I don't know too much about the alter to give more specifics.

You always guess range for artillery, what you guess is where it starts to deviate from, its not uncommon to use known distances (especially from previous rounds of shooting and movement) to get pretty good at putting your artillery just where you want it.

Solaris

2009-12-07, 10:16 PM

Well, I don't have time to cover everything right now so I'll get what I can before work is over...
I appreciate you taking your time.

First, mixed army games *never* work well in my experience. They will almost never lead to good games, at least not games where you are going to learn the mechanics of the game and how an army actually plays.
Second, you should probably limit your games to maybe 1000 or 1500 at most until you guys learn the rules better.
I think that's what we discovered. The Chaos player and I were having a bit of fun playing a 1k point-game before the other three arrived.

First, incantations from TK can be dispelled, they go off as a bound magic item with a power level of d6 or 2d6 (depending who cast it) and can be dispelled accordingly, they do go off automatically even if the roll is a 1, it just takes a single dispel die to guarantee the spell is dispelled though.
I saw that when I sneaked a look at his book just now. He won't be pulling that trick twice - a big focus of my army is anti-casting.

The dwarf runes can't be dispelled, its not magic, it just happens. I don't know too much about the alter to give more specifics.
I'll have to look through the Dwarf book, then.

You always guess range for artillery, what you guess is where it starts to deviate from, its not uncommon to use known distances (especially from previous rounds of shooting and movement) to get pretty good at putting your artillery just where you want it.
Alrighty. Like I said, I had to talk them into letting the round deviate from the guessed range as opposed to disappearing completely.

BloodyAngel

2009-12-07, 11:19 PM

You sound like you were the victim of some less than fun players and an unfavorable match-up.

First of all... you can dispel Tomb King enchants. That players was flat out cheating to insist otherwise. I'd suggest you not play with him again.

Secondly, almost ALL dwarf armies are turtle armies... this means he didn't synergy well with your highly-mobile force. Dwarves have runes that can't be dispelled, but also NO magic to speak of, so I'm guessing you had a lot of trouble getting spells through with your spellsinger. Another poor bit of luck for you (and part of the reason team games rarely balance well).

You DO guess range for cannons and rock-throwers... though it's tradition to guess short, as most add a bit of extra distance to the shot, followed by a "bounce". Anything along that line is in for some hurt. If they told you the cannon had to hit dead on, they were lying to you. It needs to land on or in front of the target, then the cannon ball will roll or bounce through the target.

As for the suicide squad... no. Turning a ranked unit takes up a good chunk of their movement, and they can't charge after doing it. (They can shoot however, and Tomb Kings don't get the usual penalty to hit for moving and shooting, so that may be where the confusion lies).

As for Archeon.... special characters are an unpopular thing in a lot of games. They are usually either so miserable for their cost that they're loathed... or so overpowered for their price that they're... well... loathed. Archeon isn't so bad, considering he costs nearly 1000 points by himself. While he's nearly impossible to kill, dealing with things like that is usually as simple as luring the offending point-sink around by the nose with bait and the like to ensure that half his force doesn't get to contribute much to the battle while you systematically tear apart the rest of his force. Lure beefy Mc Burly off the edge of the board, or into woods (which slow him down, not you) and laugh as his 1000 point juggernaut gets rendered useless by a little over 100 points of glade riders. It sounds like that WAS your plan, so props there.

As for the goblin player... um.... yeah. That guy is done. Goblins are hard to play well for GOOD players. It sounds like he has a long series of losses to look forward to, after which he'll likely give up in a funk. He reminds me of an empire player I knew who used the most god-awful tactics and choices we could think of... lost... complained... and refused to take advice offered in honest desire to help on what he could do to improve his chances. We weren't even cruel to the guy... he was just a really bad strategist and too stubborn to listen to anyone. He got better slowly. Maybe your goblin player will do the same. :smallsigh:

Solaris

2009-12-08, 02:48 AM

You sound like you were the victim of some less than fun players and an unfavorable match-up.

First of all... you can dispel Tomb King enchants. That players was flat out cheating to insist otherwise. I'd suggest you not play with him again.
Yes. Even glancing through his army book later put lie to just about every claim he'd made for his army's special rules, but he hadn't actually used any of the real rules for the undead. There's some leeway for being a player new to a game, but not that much.

Secondly, almost ALL dwarf armies are turtle armies... this means he didn't synergy well with your highly-mobile force. Dwarves have runes that can't be dispelled, but also NO magic to speak of, so I'm guessing you had a lot of trouble getting spells through with your spellsinger. Another poor bit of luck for you (and part of the reason team games rarely balance well).
Yeah. I think we could've synergized better if we'd used his army to provide an actual defensive perimeter rather than... well, using my army in between my attacks. My troops didn't actually outnumber his - the point disparity (I had 1300-1400, he had 1200) was because I used a couple more characters than he did.
Well, I'd rolled really crappy on my spells so about all I was doing was generating dispel dice. Everyone in the group had voted that allies couldn't cast on each other, so even the ones I could maybe have used to move the dwarfs... I couldn't.

You DO guess range for cannons and rock-throwers... though it's tradition to guess short, as most add a bit of extra distance to the shot, followed by a "bounce". Anything along that line is in for some hurt. If they told you the cannon had to hit dead on, they were lying to you. It needs to land on or in front of the target, then the cannon ball will roll or bounce through the target.
Ja.

As for the suicide squad... no. Turning a ranked unit takes up a good chunk of their movement, and they can't charge after doing it. (They can shoot however, and Tomb Kings don't get the usual penalty to hit for moving and shooting, so that may be where the confusion lies).
Yeah. He tried saying the undead had the ability to reform freely. It wasn't a big deal so I didn't argue the point - he would've been able to turn 180-degrees anyways by spending 1/4 his move (while stationary). He didn't charge the Suicide Squad scouts, he just shot 'em. His twenty-odd skeletons only managed to bag six of the eight, but unfortunately I couldn't sucker him into wasting another volley on them.

As for Archeon.... special characters are an unpopular thing in a lot of games. They are usually either so miserable for their cost that they're loathed... or so overpowered for their price that they're... well... loathed. Archeon isn't so bad, considering he costs nearly 1000 points by himself. While he's nearly impossible to kill, dealing with things like that is usually as simple as luring the offending point-sink around by the nose with bait and the like to ensure that half his force doesn't get to contribute much to the battle while you systematically tear apart the rest of his force. Lure beefy Mc Burly off the edge of the board, or into woods (which slow him down, not you) and laugh as his 1000 point juggernaut gets rendered useless by a little over 100 points of glade riders. It sounds like that WAS your plan, so props there.
Yeah, pretty much. I'd seen that there was no way I could possibly kill him, but fortunately I don't have to kill him to win - just kill the rest of his army while avoiding losing too many points.

As for the goblin player... um.... yeah. That guy is done. Goblins are hard to play well for GOOD players. It sounds like he has a long series of losses to look forward to, after which he'll likely give up in a funk. He reminds me of an empire player I knew who used the most god-awful tactics and choices we could think of... lost... complained... and refused to take advice offered in honest desire to help on what he could do to improve his chances. We weren't even cruel to the guy... he was just a really bad strategist and too stubborn to listen to anyone. He got better slowly. Maybe your goblin player will do the same. :smallsigh:
Yeah, maybe. I'm not holding my breath. All of those players were entirely too slow to react - I basically got a free round of archery kills in with my glade guards because the only one who would attack (the TK player) was busy killing the scouts. The goblin player was just the worst - even after I tried working out a battle strategy ahead of time (my glade riders distract Archeon, his spider riders go mess with the Chaos lines while my glade guards provide cover fire) he just... sat there. He only moved about one unit per turn - which is bad, because he only had about seven hundred points of units on the field.
We got one even worse coming down the pipeline, a guy looking to play Empire. I don't know much about his army except for the fact that he has a steam tank (after I put it together for him because he couldn't figure it out - I seriously gotta find a better group!). Now, I'm not tryin' to knock the Empire or anything - they're my second/third choice in army - but this guy's infamous for being thick-headed.

EDIT: Aaand at this point I'm just griping. It's just sad how badly and unfun that game went - and I say this as the guy who won.

BloodyAngel

2009-12-09, 02:34 AM

I too suffer from a lack of players. I used to live in the chicago area, which had them in abundance. Now I've moved back home to New York and there's considerably less people who play around here. Needless to say, my dark elves don't get dusted off all that often. :smallfrown:

I've been looking into finding a way to play online, but I've yet to come up with anything. In your case, stick with them if they're friends, and they want to stick with the game... but I'd suggest you stop playing with Tomb King man. As someone who's played against an out-and-out cheater like that, I'll advise that it's not worth it. Before you know the rules he'll cheat like mad, and when you DO know them, odds are he'll be a surly, unsportsmanlike player who's no fun to be around. The powergaming jerk I used to play with was infamous for things like that... and for the massive tantrums he'd throw if you happened to beat him. I'm quite glad we don't live near him anymore.

Ent

2009-12-09, 12:06 PM

BloodyAngel: If you're in the New York City area, there are a few good wargame groups and the GW store itself.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-09, 06:05 PM

I have a club at my university and a GW that's a 15 minute bus ride away, but most people around here play 40k and I left my 40k in England :smallfrown:.

Somehow I managed to turn my pathetic unplayable Skaven army* into a crap but legal 2000 point army with 1 battalion box. But that's only if my brother lets me borrow his half of our pathetic Skaven army. Otherwise I'm going to have to tie almost 500 points up in Lord Skrolk to make it work.

*20 Clan rats (actually my brothers), 10 plague monks, 6 censer bearers, 2 assassins, 3 lord choice special characters.

Solaris

2009-12-09, 11:45 PM

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-10, 07:02 AM

Yeah. He tried saying the undead had the ability to reform freely.

Undead in general don't, but Fast Cavalry, which both Tomb Kings and Wood Elves have good examples of, do.

Eldan

2009-12-10, 08:08 AM

Has anyone here except me got the new Skaven codex now? Because I really need some advice on the Doomwheel. On the one hand, it's really cool, on the other, I already have a Warpcannon, and the Doomwheel just seems so self-destructive.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-10, 04:14 PM

I have the new Skaven codex and I'll be using a doomwheel just because I've had the old model lying around for years and need to fill up the points.

Don't ask yourself "is it tactically worth it". Ask yourself "are you playing an army of cliche evil giant rats with war machines that make no sense what so ever because what you really want is a game of chess?"

Eldan

2009-12-10, 08:24 PM

Yes, yes. I see that point: I just can't decide whether to use the five-foot long glowing radioactive green rock shooting ball lightning or the suicidal hamster wheel.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-10, 09:55 PM

Then the only real answer is to try both and see which you like best.

Solaris

2009-12-10, 11:06 PM

Undead in general don't, but Fast Cavalry, which both Tomb Kings and Wood Elves have good examples of, do.

I think that's what he read and mistook. His reading comprehension is not the best. Artillery. You understand.

By the by, does anyone know where I can find data on the Dogs of War? All of what I've dredged up was 6E or earlier.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-11, 08:20 AM

By the by, does anyone know where I can find data on the Dogs of War? All of what I've dredged up was 6E or earlier.

Everything there is to dredge up on Dogs of War is 6th edition or earlier. They've cut them out of 7th edition because they were "against the design philosophy of every faction being unique and every book being seperate", eg the same reason you can't mix chaos anymore.

hamishspence

2009-12-11, 08:48 AM

Quite a lot of the army books still have a "mercenary" option in their Rares section.

And there was the Annual (or was it Chronicles? Either way, it was published in 7th ed), with a full Dogs of War list and most of the old favourite units.

You can still field a legal DOW army in this edition.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-11, 02:43 PM

Quite a lot of the army books still have a "mercenary" option in their Rares section.

That's because they're 6th edition books that haven't been updated yet.

Though if you go by the White Dwarf rules then you don't need a Dogs of War choice to take Dogs of War units (but you do to take Ogre Kingdoms units) as long as you're not Bretonian.

And there was the Annual (or was it Chronicles? Either way, it was published in 7th ed), with a full Dogs of War list and most of the old favourite units.

The 6th edition White Dwarf rules were collected in an annual of some kind, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't 7th edition.

You can still field a legal DOW army in this edition.

Just as you can still field a legal Chaos Dwarf army. Or any 6th edition army that doesn't have a 7th edition book.

hamishspence

2009-12-11, 04:22 PM

Is 7th edition the one which first introduced spells as cast with dice, rather than cards, or was that 6th edition?

I've checked- it looks like 6th edition. Must have overestimated- I thought the current edition was 8th.

Have all the new armies got no DOW space in Rare slots?

That is- Orcs, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Empire, Skaven, etc?)

bringatoweltoo

2009-12-12, 11:08 AM

Has anyone had a chance to face down a post-7E Skaven army yet? I'm coming back to my rats after a break from the game and wanting to get people's impressions of them... I'm not so much asking about the changes to the Skaven army itself (as I can just look those up once I have the book), more about how they work with what's changed in the REST of the game. I suspect that jezzails are still LOLOMAZING for punching knights and that more rats = better, but all I can do for the next couple of weeks is guess.

Also, anyone out there still play Mordheim?

Eldan

2009-12-12, 11:41 AM

I'm still employing household chemicals to slowly strip the paint of my models, then repaint them before I can even think about finding opponents.
But from what I see, I really like giant rats now: the fighting second rank and low prices makes them pretty cool.

BloodyAngel

2009-12-12, 12:05 PM

Ouuu... their second rank fights now? That's cool. Really fits their swarming methods of attack. Their fighters are crawling all over each other now.

@ Ent I'm not new to the NY area, I grew up here, moved to chicago for about 2 years, then came back. Alas, I'm not in the city. I live in/around Newburgh, NY. So the city is kind of a long trek for me. More so as I have no car. :smallannoyed:

As a funny bit of somewhat off-topic madness... while I haven't played a Warhammer minis game in a while, I AM running a WFRP game for my friends and fiance... and the last session was officially the Skaven session. The whole group nearly died horribly in the sewers of Altdorf trying to hunt down and exterminate a Grey Seer that had been causing a lot of trouble. They were faring well against the squeeking hordes, until the group's mage had the misfortune to miscast and trigger a temporary daemonic possession of herself. She then spent the rest of the fight using Tzeentch fire to kill skaven and turn them into Horrors.

On the upside, the horrors scared off the skaven and ate the Grey Seer. On the down side... the horrors then turned on the battered party and beat the CRAP out of them. They barely made it out alive. Kind of a tangent there, but since we were talking about skaven, I figure it fits.

As for minis... I have grown to love my dogs of war. I prefer fun games and fluffy games over tourney-type WAAC games. I also like that I can use models from nearly any force as dogs of war. My dark elf spearmen become pikemen. My bret man at arms become paymaster's bodyguards. My Chaos Marauders become Norse berzerkers. It's a blast. I've even won a few games with them! Am I the only one here who plays Dogs of War as their own list? I'd love to trade stories and tactics.

Eldan

2009-12-12, 12:22 PM

Yes. Giant rats are 3 points a model, have nearly the same stats as clanrat warriors (without the equipment of course) and the second rank can always fight as well.

Solaris

2009-12-13, 06:01 AM

So we had a 500-point battle today. It was kinda close - my little AAR could pick out a few problems with my tactics and a few problems with his. My Wood Elves, his Tomb Kings (same player, we've walked him through the book so he's straight on the rules now).

The army lists -
Wood Elves: Alter Kindred Noble (great weapon, light armor, Bow of Loren), Noble (the army general, elven steed, light armor, enchanted shield) with 5 glade riders (plus a musician, standard bearer, and horsemaster), and a unit of 8 dryads.
Tomb Kings: Tomb Prince (great weapon, light armor), Liche Priest (skeletal steed), 10 skeletal warriors x3 (so 30 total) (bows swapped out for shields, two had standard bearers), 14 skeletal warriors (used as archers).

I deployed, from left to right, the dryads, the noble, and the riders. My opponent deployed his three units of 10 skeletons in a row, spread across the field, while he had his rank of archers opposite my riders and his two characters in between the middle unit and the unit on my right.
Naturally, my cavalry hustled over to the left side of the board, forcing him to spend some turns navigating the tricky terrain of the battlefield. My dryads advanced slowly, then charged his skeletons when they came into range (right after my Alter noble got in four attacks, killing several).
Now, I know Wood Elves shouldn't be going in melee. They don' like it. That's why this battle was so damn weird - once my dryads got into melee on about turn two, they stayed the rest of the battle in it. If he hadn't revived his skeletons, he would've lost the unit completely by turn three. Dryads are killing machines. As it was, the unit had only two survivors by turn 3, who fled battle to join up with the middle unit that was coming up to reinforce.
The glade riders + general Noble went and made friends with the other unit. One charge killed about a quarter, then I whittled them down pretty good. I only lost three riders taking that unit out, then lost another on the next turn from his archers. I charged the archers, massacring about ten of them over the next two turns.
The Alter Noble sprayed his Tomb Prince with arrows while the Tomb Prince kept trying to close in. The Alter Noble managed to knock the Tomb Prince down to 1 WP before getting killed on turn 3 - I should've kept him at range a lot longer than I did.
So it came out that he was pulling his command units away from a bunch of dryads who had just got done mangling his skeletons and were eyeballing them like they would make good fertilizer, a unit of archers getting mauled in melee with glade riders, and me scratching my head trying to figure out how the hell that just worked. I think he would have done better to try closing in more, as I'm real sure that if his Tomb Prince had attacked the dryads before my Alter Noble got the choppa on him he would've accounted for at least half of the unit. Likewise, I would've done better to avoid closing in quite so soon - or taking out his archers sooner rather than later.

It came out that I lost the Alter noble (I keep using him in the same config - I ought to name him), 5 glade riders, and a dryad, while he lost thirty-one skeletons.

BloodyAngel

2009-12-15, 11:07 AM

Wood elves can actually be pretty scary in melee... but they operate on the standard elven rule of "Any fight where the enemy gets to hit me back is a bad one". With their low armor and toughness, they don't take a beating well, so they can't take a pounding. Even normal troops can hurt them, something other heroes might laugh at. If you charged a mob of skellies alone, then I can see how you got kind of messed up, as you can't break them, so it was only a matter of time before they got in a few wounds on you. Undead love wars of attrition... elves don't.

And yes... dryads are killing machines. I've seen a mob of 8 drop a giant in two turns. Granted, a lot of luck was involved with that one, but still. :smallbiggrin:

Spate

2009-12-15, 03:49 PM

I play Tzeentch Demons (Yes I play Demons. No, I don't use Khorne or Nurgle Cheese. I have 3000 pts of all Tzeentchian goodness.), and I recently played an amazing game against some Skaven. The doomwheel was hilarious, destroying both his units and mine. It supported a unit of clanrats in the charge, and wiped out a group of 24 horrors. In response to people's earlier questions about the new 7e skaven, they were able to hold their hold against my demons at 2250 and we drew. All in all, one of my most enjoyable games in recent memory. Also, the Dreaded Thirteenth spell is mean.

Eldan

2009-12-15, 05:02 PM

Absolutely. I love the 13th spell. What did he use it on? I can imagine that it's pretty devastating against small elite chaos units.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-15, 06:07 PM

That thirteenth spell was just a normal level 4 spell in 5th Edition :smalleek:

I play Tzeentch Demons (Yes I play Demons. No, I don't use Khorne or Nurgle Cheese. I have 3000 pts of all Tzeentchian goodness.), and I recently played an amazing game against some Skaven.

Pure Tzeentch cheese is even worse than Khorne or Nurgle, even if your units aren't that great in melee combat.

Unless you're fighting a vampire counts player who throws as many corpse carts with Balefire at you as he can. Then you're just a crappy immune to psych infantry army.

BloodyAngel

2009-12-15, 11:44 PM

ANY daemon army can be cheese. Then again any army at all can be cheesed, daemons just have an easy time of it. Vampires aren't much better as far as I'm concerned. I'll still play against both, but I rarely go in expecting a win. You kinda have to tailor your entire list towards beating either army to have a real good chance, and I tend to play general lists meant to take on all comers. But maybe you all have had better luck than I.

Closet_Skeleton

2009-12-16, 05:18 PM

Hopefully the Vampire Counts army I was planning to use isn't too nasty:

Lords
Vampire Lord (Converted Bretonian hero on Pegasus)
Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Beguile, Sword of Battle, Enchanted Shield, Crown of the Damned, Helsteed
400 points

Heroes
Necromancer
Vanhel's Dance Macabre, Invocation of Nehek, 2 dispel scrolls
120 points

Necromancer (converted Bretonian damsels)
Nightmare, Book of Arkhan, Black Periapt, Raise Dead, Vanhel's Dance Macabre
135 points

Wight King (just the official battle standard one sadly)
Drakenhof Banner (okay, so it's not that nice)
225 points

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors
Full Command, Spears, Banner of Hellfire
210 points

19 Skeleton Warriors (no converted skeletons, so they won't fit in with the theme so well)
Full Command, Standard of Hellish Vigour
197 points
usually joined by foot necromancer

12 Ghouls with Ghast (mostly non GW models so I'll have to swap these for zombies if the opponent complains)
104 points

Special
15 Grave Guard (converted Bretonian Men at Arms)
Full command, banner of the Dead Legion
235 points
usually joined by Wight King

8 Black Knights (evil painted Bretonian Knights, fully armoured guys are harder to convert into skeletons)
Full Command, barding, Banner of the Barrows
309 points
usually joined by mounted necromancer

3 Fell Bats (Ghostly painted Pegasus Knights)
60 points
usually led by used as shields by Vampire Lord

=1995 points

Despite having three magic users, this army only gets 6 power dice and 5 dispel dice and doesn't have any of the horribly powerful units. Still has a nasty combat vampire lord, but he's mostly just a massive point sink and not as good as a magic focused one would be. There aren't as many mounted models as I'd like but I need those three core units and the old Blood Dragon barient list doesn't have an equivilant anymore (not that I mourn the loss of Blood Dragons, since my Blood Dragon themed lord does everything my old Blood Dragon lord did and doesn't have to try and convince the opponent that his little winged horse is a monster level mount). Having ghouls instead of zombies just means I can use my zombie models for newly created units.

My Skaven Army, made entirely with a new batalion box and models I had lying around and therefore not designed with any tactical thought:

Lords
Ikit Claw
395 points

Heroes
Deathmaster Snitch
270 points

Warlock Engineer
level 2, warplock pistol, warp energy condenser
128 points

Chieftain (don't actually have a model for him so I might swap him for an extra engineer or assassin)
Battle Standard, Storm Banner
120

Core
20 clan rats
full command, spears and shields, warpfire thrower
190 points

20 clan rats
full command, spears and shields
120 points

20 clan rats
full command, shields
110 points

11 Giant Rats, 3 pack masters
57 points

Special
2 rat ogres including master bred, master moulder
120 points

30 plague monks
full command, banner of verminous scurrying
245 points

5 plague censer bearers with Plague Chanter
93 points

Rare
Doomwheel
150 points

1998 points

It's not bad, it just would be better if it had more Skyre Weapons Teams supporting the Clan Rats. Making the Clan Rats 25 strong and reducing the Plague Monks to 25 strong might be a good idea as well but those are the models I have.