What level is O-Chul?

[durron597]

This has probably been asked before, but in case it hasn't, what level do you guys think O-Chul is? He took a meteor swarm (24d6 @ reflex half + 8d6 no save), a maximized lightning bolt (well over 120 damage @ reflex half), and a disintegrate from Redcloak to the chest before he went down (probably 5d6), and even then he didn't even die. Rich never showed O-Chul using lay on hands on himself in the entire business. I think he must be higher level than any individual OOTS member.

I just thought of something...., I wonder if that's how he and V get out of this - if O-Chul dumps his entire lay on hands into Xykon, after the punishment Xykon's already taken today he may actually go down. Anyone notice the cracks in Xykon's skull and robe?

[Melchiades]

I'm not that keen on d'n'd, but from what the others have figured out, O'Chul's fighter level is higher than his paladin level, plus his constitution is tower high. This means that he can well soak up even the worst damage (as seen in the recent strips, and before with the acid tank), but his paladin abilities like lay on hands and smite evil are not that tough.

Plus Xykon is likely immune to positive energy damage, so bets are on another plot powered smite evil from behind with the crowba... prison bar.

[Berserk Monk]

He survived a massive explosion that took out Miko from the same distance, and still had enough hit points to be alive after being hurled through the air and falling a couple hundred feet. O-Chul was a fighter for 12 YEARS. Twelve years of adventuring just of fightering, longer than any human in the order. He could very well be (close to) epic level.

[Crel]

Interesting. But he can't be higher than Roy. I don't remember which strip it was, but when Roy was talking to his father almost immediately (1-3 strips) after he died, his father lays the blame on him for the fall of Azure City because he was the "highest level good character (person, what ever. Not verbatim, so sorry) on the battlefield [that day]." However, maybe O-Chul got levels from going in acid tanks, etc every day, b/c they are effectively traps. Also, we know that O-Chul's saves aren't that good, because he failed his hold person will save, and (somewhere) he mentions Charisma being his dump stat, I believe in the same strip as where he mentions adventuring as a fighter for 12 years.

So, here's what I can think of that would give him the survivability necessary: Insanely high Constitution (as mentioned above), Toughness/Improved Toughness-style feats, some way to get max hit points per hit die, a variant w/ a d12 hit die, or, what IMO is the most probable answer, PLOT ARMOR!

I fear we shall never know... Until the next person inevitably proves me wrong, that is :P.

[Flickerdart]

That wasn't Hold Person, it was a Lich's Paralyzing Touch, for which the DC is 10+1/2 lich level+CHA. Since Xykon is an Epic level Sorcerer, both those pluses would be quite high. O-Chul would be looking at a DC35 or so save, hard to make even with a +20 bonus to Fortitude.

[Crel]

okay, my bad. I was recalling from memory, not digging in the archives. I stand corrected. Yeah, DC 35+ is tough. Well, if thats the only flaw I have, I'm not to sad. Thanks.

[Dixieboy]

Level ∞ :smallamused:

[Raenir Salazar]

not nessasarily adventuring, maybe just military service? Fighting hordes of goblins and low level human soldiers doesnt give that much xp.

[Tempeststurm]

I think the Class and Level Geekery thread put him at level 16, because he got in four attacks on the phylactery in one round in 656.

[Cestrian]

I think the Class and Level Geekery thread put him at level 16, because he got in four attacks on the phylactery in one round in 656.

Level 16 post Xykon-torture.

We know that he wasn't as powerful as either Miko or Hinjo before the battle for Azure City. I'm strongly of the opinion that he levelled up due to the challenges Xykon had him run.

[Nevadie]

Current estimate ranges from:

14: If you go with the 4 attacks on the ply... Phyla... hidey-soul thingy being in two separate rounds.
to
16: If you go with all 4 attacks being in the same round.

[vegataat]

Well....let's see...

A meteor swarm is 4 meteor spheres each one does 2d6 bludgeoning damage and 6d6 fire damage, so min damage = 32 and max damage = 192 with an expected damage = 112

A maximized lightning bolt is 60 electricity damage

A disintegrate can deal a maximum of 40d6 or, with a successful save, 5d6. For a failed save, min damage = 40 and max damage = 240 with an expected damage = 140. For a successful save, min damage = 5 and max damage = 30 with an expected damage = 17

Worst case, O-Chul will take 192+60+240=492. I don't think he will survive even if he is epic-level.

Best case, he will take 32+60+5=97. A level 12 fighter/paladin with 16 constitution (12d10+36, hp 48~156 with average 102) should be able to survive that.

A more realistic case, he will take 112+60+17=189. A level 18 fighter/paladin with 20 constitution (18d10+90, hp 108~270 with average 189) will survive. If he somehow has max hp per level and toughness feat and such, level 12 fighter/paladin with 20 constitution can have over 180 hp which means he may be dying at -9 but not dead yet.

[Dork Lord]

This has probably been asked before, but in case it hasn't, what level do you guys think O-Chul is? He took a meteor swarm (24d6 @ reflex half + 8d6 no save), a maximized lightning bolt (well over 120 damage @ reflex half), and a disintegrate from Redcloak to the chest before he went down (probably 5d6), and even then he didn't even die. Rich never showed O-Chul using lay on hands on himself in the entire business. I think he must be higher level than any individual OOTS member.

I just thought of something...., I wonder if that's how he and V get out of this - if O-Chul dumps his entire lay on hands into Xykon, after the punishment Xykon's already taken today he may actually go down. Anyone notice the cracks in Xykon's skull and robe?

Actually a Maximized Lightening Bolt is only 60 damage, since it maxes out at 10d6. Now an Intensified Lightening Bolt would deal 120, but it doesn't seem like Xykon took that epic metamagic feat. As for the Meteor Swarm, the 24d6 is not savable if Xykon used all 4 meteors as touch attacks against O-Chul. So we can break it down to an average of 96 damage from the Meteor Swarm plus 60 from the Lightening Bolt (which it doesn't look like he saved for half from) plus 15 from the Disintegrate spell for a total of around 171 damage. Now assuming O-Chul has a Con modifier of +3, and rolled an average of 6 for each hit die he'd need to be level 19 and have 175 hp (assuming he got max hp for level 1) for the events in the comic to have made sense.

There you have it. My theory on why O-Chul is level 19.

[The Blackbird]

This has probably been asked before, but in case it hasn't, what level do you guys think O-Chul is? He took a meteor swarm (24d6 @ reflex half + 8d6 no save), a maximized lightning bolt (well over 120 damage @ reflex half),

Lightning bolt has a cap of 10d6 damage, a maximized one would do 60 damage ref half

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Shpadoinkle]

On top of that, O-chul's Constitution score was stated somewhere to be "in the mid-twenties." 20 is not the 'mid' twenties.

[mockingbyrd7]

I doubt Miko's estimate of the ranking of the Sapphire Guard's strongest paladins was accurate; she placed herself first and Hinjo second. However, Hinjo was nearly killed by a disintegrate spell, while O-Chul was recently hit with disintegration - left sizzling and still charging - as well as a Xykon meteor swarm and maximized lightning bolt.
On the flip side, that could be attributed to O-Chul's inhumanly high constitution.
On the flip-flip side, it's probably most likely that at the time of Miko's fall, O-Chul was the 3rd most powerful paladin, but has a ton of constitution and has also since gained several levels of experience through Xykon's sadistic torture-entertainment.
It's also possible that since O-Chul was a fighter for 12 years, he is a high-level fighter but a low-level PALADIN, prompting Miko not to include him in her ranking of the strongest PALADINS in the Sapphire Guard.
...Or, y'know, Miko could just be wrong.

[Dork Lord]

I must have missed where it mentioned his Con being in the mid 20s. What strip was that in? If that's the case, that changes everything.

[Nevadie]

I doubt Miko's estimate of the ranking of the Sapphire Guard's strongest paladins was accurate; she placed herself first and Hinjo second. However, Hinjo was nearly killed by a disintegrate spell, while O-Chul was recently hit with disintegration - left sizzling and still charging - as well as a Xykon meteor swarm and maximized lightning bolt.
On the flip side, that could be attributed to O-Chul's inhumanly high constitution.
On the flip-flip side, it's probably most likely that at the time of Miko's fall, O-Chul was the 3rd most powerful paladin, but has a ton of constitution and has also since gained several levels of experience through Xykon's sadistic torture-entertainment.
It's also possible that since O-Chul was a fighter for 12 years, he is a high-level fighter but a low-level PALADIN, prompting Miko not to include him in her ranking of the strongest PALADINS in the Sapphire Guard.
...Or, y'know, Miko could just be wrong.

Also depends on what Miko thinks is power. If you think of power has being able to survive a lot of damage, then O-chul would beat Hinjo and Miko hands down. However, more likely, if you think of power has the ability to dish out damage, Miko would beat both and Hinjo might have beaten O-chul. On the other had, if you think of power has the ability to lead a lot of people towards a single purpose, Hinjo would beat both of them hands down.

[NerfTW]

I must have missed where it mentioned his Con being in the mid 20s. What strip was that in? If that's the case, that changes everything.

It's in the commentary in War and Xps. Simply that it was in the high 20's.

[Dork Lord]

It's in the commentary in War and Xps. Simply that it was in the high 20's.

Ahh so it was in one of the books?

[Nevadie]

Ahh so it was in one of the books?

No, rich made the statement, "His con is in the mid 20's"

Edit: Unless I'm remembering wrong.

[Flickerdart]

No, rich made the statement, "His con is in the mid 20's"

Edit: Unless I'm remembering wrong.
He made the comment in one of the books, yes.

[Dork Lord]

Dang, I really need to get my hands on those books.

[Arkaim]

Also depends on what Miko thinks is power. If you think of power has being able to survive a lot of damage, then O-chul would beat Hinjo and Miko hands down. However, more likely, if you think of power has the ability to dish out damage, Miko would beat both and Hinjo might have beaten O-chul. On the other had, if you think of power has the ability to lead a lot of people towards a single purpose, Hinjo would beat both of them hands down.
Or if you think of power as the ability to turn people away from the deep end of the alignment pool, then O-chul beats them both hands down.

[Flickerdart]

The only thing that power is, as Xykon so graciously points out, is power. Withstanding a powerful spell as you're closing in on your enemy? Power. Jumping to conclusions that turn out to be wrong? Not power.

[Forbiddenwar]

O-Chul's effective character level is as high as Rich needs it to be for O-chul to do what he needs to do, and as low as rich needs it to be to make things dramatic. "At the speed of plot"

How high is he? how many paladin levels he has? how many fighter levels he has? does he have any levels in anything else, a prestige class? Not Even Rich knows. He has stated that he doesn't keep track of things like that, as it would constrain his storytelling ability.

Maybe when it is all over, in the final book, he might lay it all out, but not until then.

It is fun to speculate, as long as we admit than anyone's speculation is as valid as everyone elses.


Interesting. But he can't be higher than Roy. I don't remember which strip it was, but when Roy was talking to his father almost immediately (1-3 strips) after he died, his father lays the blame on him for the fall of Azure City because he was the "highest level good character (person, what ever. Not verbatim, so sorry) on the battlefield [that day]."

as for this.
I mentioned before in another post O-chul was NOT on the battlefield. He was in the throne room. So he could be easily higher than roy.
Also consider the source. When it comes to pushing his son's buttons (which he is doing in this scene) Eugene (like mos people in an arguement) is not the most reliable person to get his facts straight. In fact fudging the facts to get his point across (this is all roy's fault) is entirely in his character.

[UltimatheChosen]

Hmm... I've got one more theory. O-Chul has been adventuring for twelve years, which was back in the days of 2nd edition. It used to be that high consitution scores granted regeneration. Maybe when he got translated to 3rd edition, O-Chul hung on to some of that through a house rule?

Seems like a long shot, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Dark Matter]

Interesting. But he can't be higher than Roy. I don't remember which strip it was, but when Roy was talking to his father almost immediately (1-3 strips) after he died, his father lays the blame on him for the fall of Azure City because he was the "highest level good character (person, what ever. Not verbatim, so sorry) on the battlefield [that day]."http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

First, O-Chul wasn't on the battlefield.
Second, O-Chul didn't take 24d from Meteor Swarm. He took 32d (2d from direct hits, 6d from explosions, 4x because there are 4 of them).

So he's taken an average of 172 points of damage (112+60) from X plus whatever RedCloak did to him (probably 18).

Total: 190 give or take.
If his Con is 25 that's +7 hp per level.
So 16 character levels in Fighter/Pal would give him an average of 198 hp, or well within our margin of error (and that he gets 112 hp from his Con bonus).

We don't know if being tortured by RC and X gives him experience. I'd guess yes, so it's possible that during the battle for the city he was "only" Roy's level which would mean Roy's dad could still call Roy "the highest".

[NerfTW]

Ahh so it was in one of the books?


No, rich made the statement, "His con is in the mid 20's"

Edit: Unless I'm remembering wrong.

What exactly does:


It's in the commentary in War and Xps.

sound like to you guys? :smallconfused:

[Milcho]

Level ∞ :smallamused:

Nope.

He's level Awesome!

[David Argall]

I doubt Miko's estimate of the ranking of the Sapphire Guard's strongest paladins was accurate;
On the flip-flip side, it's probably most likely that at the time of Miko's fall, O-Chul was the 3rd most powerful paladin,
It's also possible that since O-Chul was a fighter for 12 years, he is a high-level fighter but a low-level PALADIN, prompting Miko not to include him in her ranking of the strongest PALADINS in the Sapphire Guard.
...Or, y'know, Miko could just be wrong.
Are you trying to take all sides here? First you say you doubt Miko's estimate and then you say it is most likely correct, and then you go back to looking for a reason she might be wrong. [A bad excuse by the way. Miko was not pure paladin either. And neither of them are subject to any claim of not being real paladins.]



First, O-Chul wasn't on the battlefield.
This is quibbling. The simple fact there was a good deal of fighting in the throne room makes it part of the battle field.



Eugene (like mos people in an arguement) is not the most reliable person to get his facts straight. In fact fudging the facts to get his point across (this is all roy's fault) is entirely in his character.
Eugene is talking to Roy, who was in a good position to know the facts. Roy does not dispute the estimate. So we can consider the statement reasonably accurate.

[mockingbyrd7]

Are you trying to take all sides here? First you say you doubt Miko's estimate and then you say it is most likely correct, and then you go back to looking for a reason she might be wrong. [A bad excuse by the way. Miko was not pure paladin either. And neither of them are subject to any claim of not being real paladins.]

Good point. (And yes, I was trying to play devil's advocate. But it seems I failed, having woken up 5 minutes before. :smallbiggrin:)

[Raenir Salazar]

Im also of the opinion that Eugene was spekaing figuritively and not taking exact scope of all of the NPC's or at least only considering the PC's.

[Cracklord]

Interesting. But he can't be higher than Roy. I don't remember which strip it was, but when Roy was talking to his father almost immediately (1-3 strips) after he died, his father lays the blame on him for the fall of Azure City because he was the "highest level good character (person, what ever. Not verbatim, so sorry) on the battlefield [that day]." However, maybe O-Chul got levels from going in acid tanks, etc every day, b/c they are effectively traps. Also, we know that O-Chul's saves aren't that good, because he failed his hold person will save, and (somewhere) he mentions Charisma being his dump stat, I believe in the same strip as where he mentions adventuring as a fighter for 12 years.

So, here's what I can think of that would give him the survivability necessary: Insanely high Constitution (as mentioned above), Toughness/Improved Toughness-style feats, some way to get max hit points per hit die, a variant w/ a d12 hit die, or, what IMO is the most probable answer, PLOT ARMOR!

I fear we shall never know... Until the next person inevitably proves me wrong, that is :P.

O-CHul wasn't on the battlefield at any point. However Miko was more powerful then him, as was Hinjo. Was. Because while they've been dead or chilling on a boat, he's been winning starefights with basalisks and killing acid breathing sharks with his bare hands. He has got serious XP from being Xykons prisoner.
He made four attacks in one round. He is at least level sixteen.

[Tyrmatt]

I like to think of O-Chul's ridiculous toughness, while backed up by theorised stats as yet another beautiful example of a relatively unoptimised character still having many awesome advantages.

Sure, a paladin should have charisma out the wazoo and most folks would never consider multiclassing to something that left them at such a disadvantage. But O-Chul is an example of the truly classical paladin, a righteous crusader who cannot be stopped by any means. He just won't die!

[Dagren]

I mentioned before in another post O-chul was NOT on the battlefield. He was in the throne room. So he could be easily higher than roy.
Also consider the source. When it comes to pushing his son's buttons (which he is doing in this scene) Eugene (like mos people in an arguement) is not the most reliable person to get his facts straight. In fact fudging the facts to get his point across (this is all roy's fault) is entirely in his character.Not to mention, how would Eugene even know what level everyone was? People know their own levels, but there is no little sign over their heads to tell other people.

[Dork Lord]

Not to mention, how would Eugene even know what level everyone was? People know their own levels, but there is no little sign over their heads to tell other people.

The scrying that Eugene was using explicitly said "Epic Inside", remember? I'd imagine it'd give all kinds of info about various people, including their levels. Not that Eugene wouldn't bs his son about the situation to get his "point" across.

[Dagren]

The scrying that Eugene was using explicitly said "Epic Inside", remember? I'd imagine it'd give all kinds of info about various people, including their levels. Not that Eugene wouldn't bs his son about the situation to get his "point" across.Doesn't follow. It can break through the cloister, but there's nothing to suggest that beyond that it does anything more than what we saw: let you watch people. Also, going by the game rules, no magic whatsoever can reveal a creature's class or level.

[Dork Lord]

Doesn't follow. It can break through the cloister, but there's nothing to suggest that beyond that it does anything more than what we saw: let you watch people. Also, going by the game rules, no magic whatsoever can reveal a creature's class or level.

Then it was probably done for sheer humor. Remember that in an actual game of D&D, no one knows what level they are either. I think this may be one of those "comic strip" explanations.

[Dagren]

Then it was probably done for sheer humor. Remember that in an actual game of D&D, no one knows what level they are either. I think this may be one of those "comic strip" explanations.Well, in a game of D&D the players know their character's levels, but there's no way they should be able to know those of an NPC. Remember that the characters in the comic are also the players. I would say that Eugene was just baiting Roy, and maybe making assumptions about the other characters on the field. (Though I think it likely he didn't even care to do that)