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Alaris
2009-05-31, 06:39 PM
Well, I'm playing in a 3.5 game at the moment as a 9th level Wizard, 2nd Level Monk, and unfortunately, one of our party members has been dragged into a deal with a Lich.

Are there any particular methods for dealing with Lichs as a Wizard. He does have a Vampire Template (Homebrewed from the DM, since the actual Vampire template sucks).

I'm a generalist Wizard, so I can use any spells, and I have some time to prepare, so I can go out and get spells/items as needed before such a fight.

Cedrass
2009-05-31, 06:43 PM
It's an undead, hit there. I can't recall any Wizard spell that would help though.

However, it's also a spell caster, dispel him, put up some Anti-magic Fields. Protection Against Evil is something you should try to get.

What's the rest of the party composed of?

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-31, 06:44 PM
Step 1: Take of glove.

Step 2: Backhand.


Oh wait, you meant the undead. Never mind the above then.

Here's the GOD handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0), and the Lich template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm). Note the strengths and weaknesses, then cross-reference this with the Wizard class. Prep spells accordingly, referencing the GOD handbook in the process.

If it's worth doing, you need to do it right and do it yourself. I sure as hell ain't gonna hold your hand.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-31, 06:52 PM
Well, I'm playing in a 3.5 game at the moment as a 9th level Wizard, 2nd Level Monk, and unfortunately, one of our party members has been dragged into a deal with a Lich.

Are there any particular methods for dealing with Lichs as a Wizard. He does have a Vampire Template (Homebrewed from the DM, since the actual Vampire template sucks).

I'm a generalist Wizard, so I can use any spells, and I have some time to prepare, so I can go out and get spells/items as needed before such a fight.Level 11? What level's the Lich? No matter what the answer to that is, you're looking at CR 13 minimum, which is a tough fight for a party of well-built characters using fairly good tactics. You're a Wizard who took 2 levels of Monk. One lost CL is...not justifiable, but able to be compensated for. 2 means you're nerfing yourself, and taking more than one level of Monk excabrates that. If the Lich is played accurate to his Int and Wis scores, and your party is the type not to object to a Wizard taking Monk past 1, then this is shaping up to be a TPK unless you can delay the fight for a couple more levels or the DM fudges in your favor.

That said, we can help. What is your specialization and banned schools? Do you have any PrCs or Metamagic feats? What's the party composition? Which books do you have access to? Will your DM hit you with a book for pulling out Planar Binding? Is the Lich's casting based on Wis, Int, or Cha, and what's it's effective level?

Alaris
2009-05-31, 06:52 PM
Well, unfortunately, I may only have one or two of the rest of the party backing me, since it deals with a personal issue for my character. Basically, said Vampire/Lich (Whom is a Wizard) wants to invade my character's homeland and take it over.

I believe I'll have the backing of the following:

-Monk 2/Wizard 8/Fatespinner 1 (Me)
-Monk 2/Druid 5/Bard/4/Lyrist 1
-Rogue 2/Wizard (Diviner) 6/Unseen Seer 2 (He may or may not betray us, so I'd rather not clue him in on the plan).
-Warlock 7
-Rogue 2/Wizard 8 (Being ressurected soon, and thus will be Wizard 7)
-Wizard 1
-Rogue 2/Paladin 1
-Fighter 8

And for the record, I'm not asking for someone to hold my hand, I was simply asking for some suggestions.

Unfortunately, for killing him permanently (Soul-Hidey-Place) would be difficult, but I would like to give it a try regardless.

We have access to all books except Dragon Magazine and Draconomicon (Most-dragon-based feats/items/spells are non-existent at the moment in this campaign).

As for the Lich's Level... it's relatively high. Minimum Wizard Level 9 I think, as I've seen him cast Teleport. I do not believe we're supposed to be actually going against him yet, but our DM will generally lean in favor of us if we decide we want to do it (IE: If we want to fight him, he'll make it so it's possible, but it'll still be hard).

Drglenn
2009-05-31, 06:56 PM
2nd level wizard spell: command undead. get it to take off any magic items it has, and tell you where its phylactery is. then blast it away with fireballs.

Also why are you wizard/monk? unless you plan to use your wizard powers to boost your strength etc then its pretty much just an exercise in futility

Edit: just seen your party list and: jesus christ that's a large and unbalanced party with lots of unnecessary multiclassing

Alaris
2009-05-31, 06:57 PM
2nd level wizard spell: command undead. get it to take off any magic items it has, and tell you where its phylactery is. then blast it away with fireballs.

Also why are you wizard/monk? unless you plan to use your wizard powers to boost your strength etc then its pretty much just an exercise in futility

Ah yes... Well, if it actually works.

The Monk deal has to do with the fact that this isn't a campaign where we powergame.

The idea behind the build was the fact that I had an 18 Dex, 18 Wisdom and 18 Intelligence. That's an 18 AC, 22 with Mage Armor, and 24 With Greater Mage Armor. That, and I get Evasion, Deflect Arrows, and Imp Grapple/Unarmed Strike. I kind of liked the idea back then.

It doesn't hurt us to lose a caster level or two (though two is generally the maximum). That, and I made this build back when I was still new to the game... and I am simply replaying the character after he has come back to the party. Couldn't change the build.

Drglenn
2009-05-31, 07:00 PM
well if it doesn't work the first time, try again, prepare all your 2nd level spells as command undead except one rope trick, get the other wizards to do so too, then if none of them work use the rope trick to sleep for the night, rinse, repeat, he's bound to tank a will save at some point

Also how does the rogue/paladin in the party work? Are you ignoring the alignment restrictions? or is it paladin of freedom?

Cedrass
2009-05-31, 07:07 PM
With your party composition, what I'd do is make the warriors hold him far away from you until you manage to debuff him/dispel him. The Command Undead thing is awesome, but remember he'll have a high Will save.

As for the Philactery, maybe the Diviner could help (even though it's pretty much a given the Lich has it protected).

Oh and try and discover if the Lich is a specialist or not, it'll help you prepare against it's spells. If it's not, try to learn what kind of spells it prefers.

Alaris
2009-05-31, 07:12 PM
With your party composition, what I'd do is make the warriors hold him far away from you until you manage to debuff him/dispel him. The Command Undead thing is awesome, but remember he'll have a high Will save.

As for the Philactery, maybe the Diviner could help (even though it's pretty much a given the Lich has it protected).

Oh and try and discover if the Lich is a specialist or not, it'll help you prepare against it's spells. If it's not, try to learn what kind of spells it prefers.

Yeah, well I figured what my job would be from the start.

I'll be doing a lot of debuffing, my Warlock 7 buddy will be doing dispelling to get rid of all of his pesky buffs/magic items. The Command Undead thing, while awesome... will require me to roll crazy high if this guy has a Will Save.

If I could trust the Diviner as far as I could throw him, I'd ask him for help. Unfortunately, he's the one that got roped into a deal with the Vampire/Lich (Or rather, blackmailed into the deal).

I'm going to be doing some information gathering on the Lich soon... see if I can't find out all of this stuff. I've encountered him once before, and let's just say it did not end well when it was me, a lowly Monk2/Wizard 5 vs. him.

Forbiddenwar
2009-05-31, 07:18 PM
Also how does the rogue/paladin in the party work? Are you ignoring the alignment restrictions? or is it paladin of freedom?

What alignment restrictions?
Yes, Paladin is LG. And Rogue has no restrictions. So a Paladin/Rogue is Lawful Good. No problem.

Paladin Rogue sounds like a creative cross class

Drglenn
2009-05-31, 07:36 PM
What alignment restrictions?
Yes, Paladin is LG. And Rogue has no restrictions. So a Paladin/Rogue is Lawful Good. No problem.

Paladin Rogue sounds like a creative cross class

Sorry, I keep applying sense to d&d to cover up where my memory lacks, I should stop doing that. Its bards and barbarians that are nonlawful, entertainers and natural warriors not theives. Really glad they got rid of alignment restrictions for all classes in 4e

Also AC 18 isn't that great, I've got a level 9 wizard (well, wizard 7/loremaster 2) in a campaign i'm playing at the moment with AC 18 before mage armour (+4 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour, +1 Bracers of Armour, +1 Ring of Protection, dusty rose ioun stone), only cost me 10,000 gp, less than i paid for my rod of wonder. As a wizard you don't really need high AC, you should just be sitting in the back or up high slinging spells around

Alaris
2009-05-31, 08:15 PM
Sorry, I keep applying sense to d&d to cover up where my memory lacks, I should stop doing that. Its bards and barbarians that are nonlawful, entertainers and natural warriors not theives. Really glad they got rid of alignment restrictions for all classes in 4e

Also AC 18 isn't that great, I've got a level 9 wizard (well, wizard 7/loremaster 2) in a campaign i'm playing at the moment with AC 18 before mage armour (+4 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armour, +1 Bracers of Armour, +1 Ring of Protection, dusty rose ioun stone), only cost me 10,000 gp, less than i paid for my rod of wonder. As a wizard you don't really need high AC, you should just be sitting in the back or up high slinging spells around

I'll re-iterate:

Without any magical items, natural AC of 18. This was also when I first started playing D&D, my second "Real" character or so. I played him during the campaign before, and I was allowed to bring him back after that "Chapter" ended, so I did. The only stipulation is that I had to keep the old build.

That, and again, I don't FULLY optimize/powergame like most people on the forum. I don't sit high up in the sky or hiding somewhere with Greater Invisibility, flinging field-control spells everywhere. I like some evocation here and there, where-as it's normally an "auto-barred" school for powergamers.

I'll also point out that, with magical items, and spells:

-Wis +4
-Dex +4
-Wondrous Item, +4 Dexterity
-Wondrous Item, +4 Wisdom
-Greater Mage Armor
-Shield (Permanent Variation, House-Ruled, Has Other Rules On It)

I'm currently sitting at AC 32. And before you ask, I did not buy the Wondrous Items, they were treasure. If I pick up a Ring of Protection +X, or Amulet of Natural Armor +X, My AC could go even higher. Our Campaign is a little AC-Intensive unfortunately, so I had to build around that at the time.

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-31, 08:31 PM
A Lich lacks a CON score, and subsequently a bonus to Fortitude Saves. So at best he's rolling a +9 or so with a +5 Cloak. Sure, it's immune to Fortitude Saves that don't affect objects, but guess what? Disintegrate is a Fortitude Save that affects objects. Spam it.

You don't even need any fancy build or anything in particular. Just a simple Metamagic Rod of Empower(or Maximize) and the ability to cast two 6th level Wizard spells. You'd be able to do that if you were Wizard 11, but that's beside the point.

Then it's just a simple matter of finding the phylactery, which may very well be impossible. Or you could just cast Flesh to Stone on the Lich and never have a problem with him again.

Alaris
2009-05-31, 08:45 PM
Control-Undead won't work, as Liches are immune to Mind-Affecting Abilities/Spells.

I like the disintegrate idea, since his fortitude save likely sucks. Only problem is I'd have to use a scroll, with no metamagic, since we don't have a wizard of 11th level or higher.

In addition, he is minimum CR15, since Lich is a +4 level adjustment, and making a Soul-Hidey-Place requires Caster Level 11, and Craft Wondrous Item.

Gorbash
2009-05-31, 08:46 PM
I don't sit high up in the sky or hiding somewhere with Greater Invisibility, flinging field-control spells everywhere. I like some evocation here and there, where-as it's normally an "auto-barred" school for powergamers.

If you're gonna fling hate towards power-gamers be sure to know what you're talking about.

Evocation sin not an "auto-barred" school for power gamers. Evocation is actually a good school. It has spells like Wind Wall, Contingency, Howling Chain, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Crushing Grip etc. Blasting is not an option for optimizers, because it's inferior to other stuff they have at their disposal. And if you want to blast something, you're better off with Conjuration (Orbs etc), since they require no save and no SR. So, for a generalist Wizard, there are a lot of spells in Evocaiton school that are really good. But if you decide you're goind to specialize, Evocation is a number one choice, since its primary spells are easily replacable via Shadow Evocation. Point is, when you specialize - you have to cut corners somewhere and since every other school has a broader range of spells it comes naturally as a first choice. It's not power gaming, it's called common sense.

Sinfire Titan
2009-05-31, 08:49 PM
Control-Undead won't work, as Liches are immune to Mind-Affecting Abilities/Spells.

I like the disintegrate idea, since his fortitude save likely sucks. Only problem is I'd have to use a scroll, with no metamagic, since we don't have a wizard of 11th level or higher.

In addition, he is minimum CR15, since Lich is a +4 level adjustment, and making a Soul-Hidey-Place requires Caster Level 11, and Craft Wondrous Item.

Control Undead is Necromancy, not Enchantment, and definitely not Mind Affecting.

Riffington
2009-05-31, 08:50 PM
Sorry, I keep applying sense to d&d to cover up where my memory lacks, I should stop doing that. Its bards and barbarians that are nonlawful, entertainers and natural warriors not theives.


Well, first off, not all entertainers are Bards. Just a select few, who have silver tongues and the primal power of creation (i.e. chaos itself) running through their veins.

And second, not all rogues are thieves. A rogue is a hero of skills, whose mastery of her talents (and/or dedicated training) lets her accomplish the fantastic. This can run the gamut from Sherlock Holmes to Lara Croft, from Batman to Richard Feynman.

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-31, 08:52 PM
Disintegrate is a great spell to lob at undead, since it forces a fort save that they're not immune to, and they have no con bonus. However, it's (presumably) not a spell you have access to. I'd not go for the command undead route, because it replicates charm, not dominate as others seem to believe. It also targets his best save.

I say grapple him. If the Druid/Bard knows Silence or can get a scroll of it, have him cast it on either himself or whoever has the highest grapple mod. The Lich won't get a save since he isn't the target. If nobody has a grapple mod higher than +16, use Evard's Black Tentacles instead for the grappling, or summon a Celestial Brown Bear, which has +16 (you'll need to be able to communicate with it in Celestial to be able to order it to grapple, I'd say). With his Somatic and Verbal components disabled, the Lich will have a hard time indeed casting spells. He may have contingencies set up, so try to hit him with a dispel before you try to grapple him.

I hope I'm not missing something obvious that would ruin my plan...

Babale
2009-05-31, 08:54 PM
Liches apply their Cha bonus to fort checks, I'm pretty sure

The Glyphstone
2009-05-31, 08:56 PM
Only to Concentration checks. Disintegrate is an undead's primary weakness, but don't be surprised if the Lich has Spell Immunity (Disintegrate) for that very reason. Grappling the Lich seems like it'd be a bad idea though, since all it has to do is make a touch attack at a small penalty to paralyze its grappler, and celestial bears don't have a great Fort save.

Starbuck_II
2009-05-31, 08:56 PM
Liches apply their Cha bonus to fort checks, I'm pretty sure

No, that isn't right.

Liches don't get that good of stuff (read template).

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-31, 08:58 PM
...Or you could just cast Flesh to Stone on the Lich and never have a problem with him again.

Flesh to Stone does not affect objects, so I don't think it affects Undead. It also might be covered by a Liches immunity to polymorph, but I'm not so sure about that.

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-31, 09:02 PM
Grappling the Lich seems like it'd be a bad idea though, since all it has to do is make a touch attack at a small penalty to paralyze its grappler, and celestial bears don't have a great Fort save.

The lich would need to make a successful grapple check to use its touch, so if it can't win the check, it won't be a problem. If this turns out to be a problem, you could always use Black Tentacles, or Iron Bands of Billarro (or whatever his name is).

ZeroNumerous
2009-05-31, 09:06 PM
In addition, he is minimum CR15, since Lich is a +4 level adjustment, and making a Soul-Hidey-Place requires Caster Level 11, and Craft Wondrous Item.

A Lich is CR+2. LA only matters for players.


Liches apply their Cha bonus to fort checks, I'm pretty sure

Dry Liches do, regular Liches suck by comparison.


Flesh to Stone does not affect objects, so I don't think it affects Undead. It also might be covered by a Liches immunity to polymorph, but I'm not so sure about that.

It doesn't have the polymorph subtype, and it creates an object so I would assume it affects objects. Particularly since you can Stone-to-Flesh and wall then Flesh-to-Stone it back.

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-31, 09:14 PM
It doesn't have the polymorph subtype, and it creates an object so I would assume it affects objects. Particularly since you can Stone-to-Flesh and wall then Flesh-to-Stone it back.

I concede that immunity to polymorph won't stop Flesh to Stone, but I still believe that it won't affect undead. Stone to Flesh specifically lists a cylinder of stone as a valid target, and has a save line with "Fortitude negates (object)". The (object) note means that it can affect objects, and Flesh to stone does not have it, so it doesn't affect objects and undead are immune to it. Unless I'm wrong, of course.

EDIT: I forgot to address that last sentence. I don't think you can Stone to Flesh inert flesh, since it's an object (although this is rather counterintuitive, since the spells really ought to be able to reverse one another). Note that Flesh to Stone only has "One Creature" as a target.

erikun
2009-05-31, 09:26 PM
I don't know if an undead still counts as "flesh", though. Reguardless, Liches are immune to Polymorph, so no Flesh to Stone.

Disentegrate works best, but you need to bypass Lich SR. Also, they might have immunity to that specific spell, as mentioned above.

Grappling is a bad idea (because of Paralyzing Touch) but either attacking directly or pushing the Lich around (bull rush) will work. As with most casters, choosing to ready an action "charge and attack if it casts a spell" will work to interrupt some spells.

Protection from Evil (especially on the front line fighter) will work wonders, along with Circle vs. Evil. Be sure to buff everyone with Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, and whatever else you like. (Those two are for more HP and better Fort/Will saves.)

Ravens_cry
2009-05-31, 09:29 PM
Well. . .while you can turn a statue into a corpse,

The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. the description for Flesh to Stone explicitly states
Target: One creature Which to me at least suggests that you can't turn a meat object into stone. On the other hand, it only says immunity to polymorph, following the link provided (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#polymorph) on the Lich page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) leads me to believe you can in fact cast Flesh to Stone on the Lich, as it is a creature and thatFlesh to Stone is not a polymorph spell. Transmutation, yes, but not polymorph.

The Glyphstone
2009-05-31, 09:32 PM
The lich would need to make a successful grapple check to use its touch, so if it can't win the check, it won't be a problem. If this turns out to be a problem, you could always use Black Tentacles, or Iron Bands of Billarro (or whatever his name is).

You don't need to make a grapple check to attack with a natural weapon:



Things You Can Do In A Grapple: Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.


Iron Bands or black Tentacles will work though.

raptor1056
2009-05-31, 09:32 PM
A Lich lacks a CON score, and subsequently a bonus to Fortitude Saves. So at best he's rolling a +9 or so with a +5 Cloak. Sure, it's immune to Fortitude Saves that don't affect objects, but guess what? Disintegrate is a Fortitude Save that affects objects. Spam it.

You don't even need any fancy build or anything in particular. Just a simple Metamagic Rod of Empower(or Maximize) and the ability to cast two 6th level Wizard spells. You'd be able to do that if you were Wizard 11, but that's beside the point.

Then it's just a simple matter of finding the phylactery, which may very well be impossible. Or you could just cast Flesh to Stone on the Lich and never have a problem with him again.

One problem, actually: funny clothes.

Claudius Maximus
2009-05-31, 09:35 PM
Flesh to Stone is an effect that requires a fortitude save and does not affect objects. From the SRD:


[Undead have] Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Ravens_cry
2009-05-31, 09:45 PM
Flesh to Stone is an effect that requires a fortitude save and does not affect objects. From the SRD:
Dang your right.
Shucks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-05-31, 10:04 PM
Sorry, I keep applying sense to d&d to cover up where my memory lacks, I should stop doing that. Its bards and barbarians that are nonlawful, entertainers and natural warriors not theives. Really glad they got rid of alignment restrictions for all classes in 4e.Not applying logic well is part of the problem. Beyond the fact that the class is no longer called 'Thief' for a reason, theft is Evil, not Chaotic.

Coidzor
2009-05-31, 10:11 PM
And second, not all rogues are thieves. A rogue is a hero of skills, whose mastery of her talents (and/or dedicated training) lets her accomplish the fantastic. This can run the gamut from Sherlock Holmes to Lara Croft, from Batman to Richard Feynman.

Wrong. Batman is his own alignment and base class. MY PARENTS ARE DEAD (http://www.pvponline.com/my-parents-are-dead/)" being one of his prestige classes.

Paul H
2009-06-03, 09:27 AM
Hi

Noticed that there was a Monk/Bard mix amongst you party - How? (One must be Lawful, the other must not).

Plenty of ways to defeat the Lich in combat - beating with Magical Bludgeoning wpn (Shilllelagh) will do, but what about the philactery? Unless you have that with you, and can destroy it after you defeat the Lich, he'll just reform in 24hrs.

Note I said "with you". If you don't his spirit will just transfer. If you destroy it first the Lich will take appropriate action, maybe even going somewhere safe to make another. You need it with you so you can destroy it immediately after the battle.

Cheers
Paul H

Crazy Scot
2009-06-03, 09:41 AM
I once heard a friend tell me about a time he and his friends went up against a lich. Apparently it was after a long slog through a dungeon (basically out of all spells/abilities/hp/etc). They get to the last door and open it. In the last room is the lich, and he tells them that he is impressed that they got this far, and that he will let them leave unharmed if they don't attack him. The guys looked at each other, then the wizard in the group said, "Forget this, we'll never get this far again. Magic missile."

The DM was slightly surprised by this statement, but said, "Okay, but it is a wild magic zone." A few rolls later, and the result of the wild magic...spell lasts for 10 minutes. :smallbiggrin:

So, long story short, either you need some good preparation and/or a bit of luck. Hope it goes well, and tell us how it turns out.

KillianHawkeye
2009-06-03, 06:41 PM
Noticed that there was a Monk/Bard mix amongst you party - How? (One must be Lawful, the other must not).

It could be an ex-Monk, as they don't lose any class abilities for becoming nonlawful.

Almn
2009-06-03, 07:03 PM
Gain some levels then cast disintegrate, undeath to death, or the ever famous sunburst, the wonderful scroll full of explosive runes, The risky halt undead, The dangerous wall of fire, or the cheesy polymorph

woodenbandman
2009-06-03, 07:58 PM
Make your party members help you. Rope them into it somehow. Worst case scenario they kill off your character but he saves his homeland.

It's what MY character would do.

holywhippet
2009-06-03, 08:32 PM
Throw money at the problem maybe? Use summon monster spells to call in celestial monkeys. Then hand the monkey some vials of holy water. Have them spread out so area of effect spells won't get them all and have them lob the holy water at the lich.

Alaris
2009-06-03, 08:44 PM
Gain some levels then cast disintegrate, undeath to death, or the ever famous sunburst, the wonderful scroll full of explosive runes, The risky halt undead, The dangerous wall of fire, or the cheesy polymorph

Disintegrate - I like, will try most likley.

Undeath to Death: Costy Material Component, Will Save. Nope

Sunburst - Reflex Save, High Damage to Undead, Would try if I were 17th Level.

Halt Undead - Will Save, Nope

Wall of Fire - Umm, unsure on the Mechanics, and the damage is only 2d6+1 per CL... double to Undead helps though.

Polymorph - Ah.. yes... love the spell... if I could figure out a real way to make it help vs. the Lich.


Noticed that there was a Monk/Bard mix amongst you party - How? (One must be Lawful, the other must not).

Started out Lawful Good, Ended up True Neutral by the time she took Bard levels.


Make your party members help you. Rope them into it somehow. Worst case scenario they kill off your character but he saves his homeland.

That's what I want to do. I don't mind losing my character if I can end up saving the homeland by doing it. Worth the sacrifice I say.

woodenbandman
2009-06-03, 09:44 PM
That's what I want to do. I don't mind losing my character if I can end up saving the homeland by doing it. Worth the sacrifice I say.

The solution is to turn evil and kidnap the party's loved ones, then trade them to the Lich as collateral for something, which you then use to destroy him.

Deth Muncher
2009-06-03, 10:31 PM
Polymorph - Ah.. yes... love the spell... if I could figure out a real way to make it help vs. the Lich.


Well, first you turn yourself into a Sarrukh, then...:smallbiggrin:


No, anyway. So you want Polymorph? Turn into something insane, like a Pyrohydra. Or a Cryohydra, for that matter.


Alternatively, something I've always wanted to see work - Tenser's Transformation. It's the Powerthirst of spells. It lets you rage AND cast spells. And since you're a monk, bonus to physical stats is win, right? See if you can get this. The only MC is a Bull's Strength potion, who's effects are subsumed by the spell.

Alaris
2009-06-03, 11:14 PM
Well, first you turn yourself into a Sarrukh, then...:smallbiggrin:


No, anyway. So you want Polymorph? Turn into something insane, like a Pyrohydra. Or a Cryohydra, for that matter.


Alternatively, something I've always wanted to see work - Tenser's Transformation. It's the Powerthirst of spells. It lets you rage AND cast spells. And since you're a monk, bonus to physical stats is win, right? See if you can get this. The only MC is a Bull's Strength potion, who's effects are subsumed by the spell.

The moment I find out what those are... I'll think about it. Downside to Polymorphing/Alter Self in the campaign I play in is that you have to know of the creature you're changing into (Via Knowledge Checks, or actual previous encounters/research of them).

Tenser's Transformation nullifies all spellcasting ability.

Justin B.
2009-06-04, 01:53 AM
Hire a max level Hunter of the Dead who specializes in arrow firing, ensure that he gets the last hit.

Fitz10019
2009-06-04, 06:07 AM
Back to the grappling suggestion... what if he casts Summon Undead IV to get a Wyvern Zombie (or SUV, for 2 of them) to do the grappling? It has a +16 to grapple, like the celestial bear, but it would be immune to the Lich's drain. It's slam attacks are bludgeoning. I mean this as a way to occupy the Lich, prevent most spellcasting, and render it Dex-to-AC-less against the meleeing party members. Pros? Cons?

Tyrmatt
2009-06-04, 06:28 AM
I have a potentially amusing and unorthodox solution here. If the lich is incapable of somatic and verbal components, he can't cast spells right?
So assuming he doesn't have Silent and Still spell (both of which raise the level of a spell by +1 I think? He will have limited casting of the really potent spells).

Since this will be a fairly low level lich by your estimations, how about getting multiple grapplers who intentionally fail their save to the paralysing touch as they grapple...my understanding is that it leaves you rigid in your last position. Which would be grappling the lich. Pin his arms down, throw a bag over his head and pile on the grapplers until he can't move for being pinned down by adventurers all of whom can't even begin to try and get off him, even if they want to. A nice heavy fighter would be ideal to help you. I bet even your monk levels would help here...especially with Tenser's Transformation. The druid should be able to morph into something grapply as well...

With the lich on the ground, you can heal until he runs out of silent, still spells and then dismember the body, shatter the skull and focus on hunting his phylactery in the intervening 1d10 days and unfreeze your party members with appropriate scrolls etc. Of course, if he regenerates before you find the phylactery he is gonna be ANNOYED! Nothing more humliating than being flattened by a paralyzed bear :p

Roupe
2009-06-04, 07:00 AM
Tyrmatt gave me an idea, but for the evil aligned.

have a Ooze creature attach/grapple/stick it self to the lich then and as the lich is discomforted and now unable to cast spells.

cast flesh to stone on the Ooze. Result statue locked lich.

naturally this can be done on the hired henchmen, ahem, adventures too.