(Schrödinger)Wizards and WBL

[Lycar]

Since the 'How would you fix Fighters et. al.?' thread degenerated into another 'Wizards win, everything else suxx' thread, I started this one.


Judging from the discussions on these boards, all mages always get all spells ever conceived shoved up their @sses.

This begs the question: How do you guys handle WBL and spells?

Now please correct me if I am wrong here, but besides his initial set of spells, a Wizard is, by RAW, entitled to learn 2 more spells every time he levels up, correct?

So that would work out to, say, 11 non-cantrip spells for a 5th level Wizard.

2 of which can be 3rd level.

Everything else has to come from elsewhere.

Therefore: If said Wizard would, say, happen to have 5 3rd level spells listed in his spellbook, 3 of those would effectivly be 'extra gear'.

Now would this not cut into his WBL? 3 scrolls to learn those 3 extra spell at 375 gp each, plus the 900 gp of materials it takes to scribe 9 pages of spells into your spellbook? Just a bit more then 2000 gp. Note that most Wizards who get discusses on these boards have about half the SC copied into their spellbooks.

Just for the heck of it, let us assume a 5th level Wizard, freshly created for a PbP game. He has all the cantrips for free (which by now ough to require a spellbook at by themselves, but meh...) plus 12 lv. 1 spells (5 of which are free), 10 lv 2 spells (4 of which are free) and 6 3rd level spells (2 of which are free).

That would be
7 x 25 gp (175), + 7 x 150 gp (1050), + 4 x 375 gp (1500) + 3300 gp for the scrolls and materials it requires to scribe 33 pages of spellbook.

That is a total of 5.500 gp out of 9.000 a freshly created 5th level character gets to toy around with.

In other words: Only 3.500 left to buy such nifty things as, say Anklets of Translocation. Or wands of whatever for that matter. Or the absolute must-have for all STR 8 characters: Heward's Handy Haversack.

Doesn't leave much gold to buy shoes, now does it... :smallamused:

So, how do YOU handle this anyway?

Lycar

[TheCountAlucard]

So, how do YOU handle this anyway?

Hi, Lycar! (waves)

That's exactly how I handle it. A Wizard's spellbook (or spellbooks, as it may be) is typically going to be where a good portion of his/her money is invested.

I've seen other DMs handle it this way as well. A friend ran a low-magic campaign (humorously enough, though, the party was made up of casters) in which every party member had one piece of magic gear... except for me, the wizard. I had my spellbook, and that was it. Only had a handful of spells, too.

Also, you typically have to find a wizard with said spell before said wizard will let you copy out of his book.

[The_Werebear]

Also keep in mind that the Wizard knows the spells of whatever Wizards he can kill and steal the spellbooks of. That's how both Wizards I play and ones I DM for end up learning large quantities of their spells.

[arkol]

Collegiate wizard feat.

And scrolls are bound to be rolled into treasure if your DM actually rolls treasure.

[Lycar]

Also keep in mind that the Wizard knows the spells of whatever Wizards he can kill and steal the spellbooks of. That's how both Wizards I play and ones I DM for end up learning large quantities of their spells.

Yes, but do you count those spells against the Wizard's WBL?

It is just that in all 'those threads' (you know which ones I mean), Wizards always have their stat boosters, +5 Inherent Bonus to at least 2 stats, staves, rods and wands up the wazoo and then some... but never have I ever found a mention of just how much of their WBL is tied down in their spell arsenal.

Granted, a level 9 spell scroll costs just 3.825 gp + 900 gp for scribing, chump change at the levels where this matters (scroll of Gate costs 8.825 gp though).

Still, with all the spells Wizard superiorists toss around regularly...

It is just, I get that sinking feeling that a lot of the supposed superiority of Wizards stems from 'conveniently ignoring' the cost of their vast arsenal of spells. :smallannoyed:

EDIT:


Collegiate wizard feat.

Found a nice article here (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-6972_25_0.html) where someone did the math on how much money a Wizard with that feat saves in scrolls and scribing costs up to lv 20.

The question remains: Do you count the extra spells against the Wizard's WBL or not? If not, why?

Lycar

[mostlyharmful]

Have another look at that thread, there's not actually all that many spells being mentioned, most of them are listed as several different ways to achieve the same end (DimDoor and Ghostform and Teleport are all ones I gave for getting out of a grapple which you wont need if you use an item or an alternate class feature.).

You need a set of personal and party buffs, a set of debuffs that target each save, some Battlefield control, a bit of summoning and a few out of combat divinations and transport spells for a ninth level mage it's perfectly doable to have most of them inside his 2/level. There's also a feat that'll give you 4/level if your dm is stingy on the spell book treasure or nice NPC mages.

It doesn't cost scroll prices to copy spells into your book, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook) It costs 50xspell level since you and another mage will be at the same level and each has a personal interest to swap spells to broaden their repitoir and thus power.


And it doesn't cost anything to write them down into your book. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm)


So aquiring more spells is cheap, you actually get more than enough to be ok for free and making another copy to keep your book safe or sell is easy, fast and free.

[wormwood]

Have another look at that thread, there's not actually all that many spells being mentioned, most of them are listed as several different ways to achieve the same end (DimDoor and Ghostform and Teleport are all ones I gave for getting out of a grapple which you wont need if you use an item or an alternate class feature.).

You need a set of personal and party buffs, a set of debuffs that target each save, some Battlefield control, a bit of summoning and a few out of combat divinations and transport spells for a ninth level mage it's perfectly doable to have most of them inside his 2/level. There's also a feat that'll give you 4/level if your dm is stingy on the spell book treasure or nice NPC mages.

It doesn't cost scroll prices to copy spells into your book, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook) It costs 50xspell level since you and another mage will be at the same level and each has a personal interest to swap spells to broaden their repitoir and thus power.


And it doesn't cost anything to write them down into your book. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm)


So aquiring more spells is cheap, you actually get more than enough to be ok for free and making another copy to keep your book safe or sell is easy, fast and free.

Not true, I'm afraid. It does cost to copy a spell, regardless of the source. Thus sayeth the SRD.



Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.


The bolds are mine.

[arkol]

There's also this item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook) to save on that money.

But I wouldn't count the money you teorically save with such an item or with the Collegiate Wizard feat as WBL. The same way that I wouldn't count an item with full market value of say 5k GP if it was crafted by a character.

Bottom line: even in treasure (and thus items) non casters are behind in 3.5

[Lycar]

So aquiring more spells is cheap, you actually get more than enough to be ok for free and making another copy to keep your book safe or sell is easy, fast and free.

The costs of actually adding a given spell can be anything from the price in the magic shop + the ink to slaying a dragon and getting the scroll/access to the archmages library as a quest reward.

The point is: How much does it count towards your expected WBL?

If Bob the fighter has to spend, say, 40 % of his WBL for his Zweihäder +3 of Casual Dismemberment, because the price of the item happens to be just so much, even if Bob the fighter lifted that damn thing from a Death Knight the party defeated, does not Willard the Wizard also have to count all spells above those granted as class features towards his expected WBL?

Imagine a 7th level Wizard (expected WBL 19.000 gp) who really went a bit overboard shopping and, when the math gets done and the dust settles, finds out his library has a net worth of 17.000 gp. He can not even afford a measly Headband of Intellect +2 at this point.

Or in other words: If a wizard has a substantial part of his WBL invested in his spell selection, he can not expect to be showered with loot on top of that, now can he. Not untill his other buddies have caught up at least, everything else would be patently unfair towards the other players after all.

EDIT:

But I wouldn't count the money you teorically save with such an item or with the Collegiate Wizard feat as WBL. The same way that I wouldn't count an item with full market value of say 5k GP if it was crafted by a character.

Spells gained by level up, with or without Collegiate Wizard are basically class features of the Wizard and therefore should not count against WBL.

If you do, however not count the money saved on a Blessed Book or on a crafted item... then with what right do you count Bob's Zweihänder +3 of Casual Dismemberment against his WBL? He got it for free after all...

Lycar

[mostlyharmful]

Not true, I'm afraid. It does cost to copy a spell, regardless of the source.

Specific trumps general. The specific spell says it does something that the general rule says it can't, specific wins.


'The point is: How much does it count towards your expected WBL?'

Yes, that was the point of my post. The spells don't have a price in and of themselves so all you've got is how much it costs to get hold of them, which is 50 x spell level in gp.

so you've got----- all cantrips, (3x starting Int mod) 1st levels and 2 x Wizard Level spells free, they cost 50xlevel after that.

So the 5th level Wizard you've mentioned in the OP pays nothing for his spell book in terms of WBL, its part of his spellcasting class feature to get them free. The Wizard gets a spell book and his starting set at character creation which would put him massively over the WBL limit, that seems to be the only clear indication either way in terms of should they be charged for their main class feature in the core books and I haven't seen anything to change that in splats or rulings.

[arkol]

It's a thin line I supose. Treasure is ussually dealt with by the players themselves.

So assume a party of 4 defeats a wizard who's only possesion is a spellbook. Let's say said spellbook has a selling value of... 4000gp.

If the party doesn't have a wizard then what they should do is quite obvious. Sell the book for 4000gp, and each one gets 1000gp out of it.

So if the party does have a wizard who prior to selling happens to actually copy the spells in it should he receive less gold for it? I think not. It's like the rogue getting less money out of a gem the party has just selled because before they sold it he used it to improve his disguise has a noble to get into the evil king's cocktail party.

But I do understand your idea though. He is indeed getting something out of it that normally DOES have a price.

But then how do you fix it? Less gold on the next treasure? That affects the whole party not just the wizard so you end up with the same problem. So again it comes down to the players. They are the ones who actually divide the loot between themselves so....

Anyway don't take WBL TOO seriously. It's just a guideline, not set in stone rules. The crafting rules themselves completly destroy it, since you're actually making MORE money while DELAYING your level.

[Jayabalard]

Also keep in mind that the Wizard knows the spells of whatever Wizards he can kill and steal the spellbooks of.Likewise, fighters can generally use all of the magic swords of whatever enemies that they can kill and steal the weapons of.

in both cases, I'd say it would be figured into the WBL.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Specific trumps general. The specific spell says it does something that the general rule says it can't, specific wins.


'The point is: How much does it count towards your expected WBL?'

Yes, that was the point of my post. The spells don't have a price in and of themselves so all you've got is how much it costs to get hold of them, which is 50 x spell level in gp.

so you've got----- all cantrips, (3x starting Int mod) 1st levels and 2 x Wizard Level spells free, they cost 50xlevel after that.

So the 5th level Wizard you've mentioned in the OP pays nothing for his spell book in terms of WBL, its part of his spellcasting class feature to get them free. The Wizard gets a spell book and his starting set at character creation which would put him massively over the WBL limit, that seems to be the only clear indication either way in terms of should they be charged for their main class feature in the core books and I haven't seen anything to change that in splats or rulings.


How is it 50 gp? Writting a new spell into your book other then the 2 you get for leveling is 100 per page. And a spell is a single page per spell level.

So in his example yes that would be his class feature but any more then those two by level would be against his WBL...

So assuming said 1st level wizard has all cantrips, and well say 4 1st level spells in his book. 3 base +1 int. If then he wants to add a new spell to his spell book while still at 1st level it will cost him.
100 gp... Assuming its a scroll or a dead wizards book. if he is getting it off another wizard most of the time it will be 150 a pop.

Yes i enforce those rules in my game it helps make wizards balanced. If your not then that's why your wizards are even more over powered.
Though most of my players just take the 2 per level... and they deal with it. heh


Edit:
arkol: you are correct however the wizards 1000 gp for his portion of the book sold will most likly go to paying abck the money he borrowed to copy the spells.

[mostlyharmful]

Likewise, fighters can generally use all of the magic swords of whatever enemies that they can kill and steal the weapons of.

in both cases, I'd say it would be figured into the WBL.

Except that the next town they stop at the fighter sells that bauble sword and everyone gets a cut, the mage sells the book and everyone gets a cut but the mage..... what?

The sword is the valuable object, they can sell it once but the book itself doesn't matter, you could grind it up into paste it's the infomation that matters and that can be duplicated for free... and then sold. So why is the mage loseing his cut?

[Another_Poet]

In the world I currently run, a wizard generally must pay a fee to access an arcane library and copy spells down. Scrolls are rare (it's the IK, any magic item that costs XP to make is unusual since magic machines have taken their place). And the arcane libraries are generally controlled by magical orders so they are very protective. Low level spells can maybe be traded with other wizards for free, if you cultivate a contact & are willing to share some of your own spells as well. But even an old magic school buddy is unlikely to share higher level spells for free, since they know they can sell them for huge profit instead.

So yes, the wizard in our party must save money from his WBL and purchase his library time. The fee corresponds to how long the wizard spends in the library, which goes something like this:

[(cost of a scroll of the spell * 1/2) * discount for being a member of the order]

Some spells cost extra if they are taboo in the Iron Kingdoms, which includes summoning and necromancy spells.

ap

[grautry]

Yes, that was the point of my post. The spells don't have a price in and of themselves so all you've got is how much it costs to get hold of them, which is 50 x spell level in gp.

This, I believe, is the perfect reply.

Spells don't have any inherent value, except for how much it costs for you to get a hold of them.

If you get a hold of spells via scrolls? Well, that should cut into your WBL - because you bought them or found them. If you get a hold of spells by writing them into your book from other wizards? Only so much as the books and the ink cost.

As a class feature, spells have no cost associated with them. IF spells have an inherent value then you reach absurd conclusions - such as that Sorcerers, Favoured Souls or Bards should have their WBL lowered by how much it costs to scribe a scroll of every spell in their repertoire.

[derfenrirwolv]

You're double billing the wizard for spells coming out of captured spell books.

The party captures an enemy wizards spell book on Monday. They can sell it for 4,000 GP on Tuesday... or they can wait a week, let the wizard copy the spells he wants out of it and sell it for the same 4,000 gp on Sunday. Sure, the wizard still has to pay 100 gp per level of the spell, but the party's not going to try to charge the wizard rent on a non perishable item.

[Dark_Scary]

1) Yay! Offensive generalizations about how many spells Wizards have that have nothing to do with what people actually say!

2) As mostly harmful has mostly covered:

a) You can trade spells with other Wizards, getting free access.
b) Even if you do have to pay for access, you pay 50gp per page, which is a hell of a lot less then scrolls. But no one actually reads the rules on writing spells before they start talking about how much it should cost.
c) Secret Page is a free copy into your book, and free extra books. It comes with some slight downsides, but is still totally worth it.

d) The answer is. extra spells cost 0gp in WBL if traded for, 50gp per page if bought, and 150gp per page if actually inscribed.

[Jayabalard]

Except that the next town they stop at the fighter sells that bauble sword and everyone gets a cut, the mage sells the book and everyone gets a cut but the mage..... what?I didn't suggest that; WBL is just a guideline so that the DM knows how much treasure to give out. If the gain of a spell counts against the Wizard's WBL, then the GM takes that into account when he's designing treasure for future encounters.

What the party does with that treasure is going to be up to them. "Everyone gets a cut" a player decision, so doesn't really enter into the equation; it's up to them whether the group splits the results of the sale evenly, if if they give all of the money to the group's fighter to buy a better sword, or donate it all to charity, or whatever they want to do.

[The_Werebear]

Likewise, fighters can generally use all of the magic swords of whatever enemies that they can kill and steal the weapons of.

in both cases, I'd say it would be figured into the WBL.

My point with that was that I have never seen a DM factor someone's class feature (spellbook) into the pile of loot, even if is sold later.

[Jayabalard]

My point with that was that I have never seen a DM factor someone's class feature (spellbook) into the pile of loot, even if is sold later.A spellbook is an item, not a class feature. If you lose the item, or it gets destroyed, then you lose that value.

If you count that as part of the wizard's WBL, then if a wizard gets his spellbook stolen or destroyed, you should be providing equivalent treasure down the line to compensate.

[Lycar]

d) The answer is. extra spells cost 0gp in WBL if traded for, 50gp per page if bought, and 150gp per page if actually inscribed.

Do they? How do you assign a net worth to a Wizard's collection of spells? Every other class has to count everything they own against their supposed WBL.

With what right does a Wizard expect his additional spells to be exempt from that? And then, what is a spell's worth? Taking the price of the scroll + the cost of the ink is a baseline everybody can work with, just as you determine the cost of a longsword +1 to be (base price longsword + masterwork weapon + +1 enhancement).

If you do not do that, I would consider this to be grossly unfair towards every non-wizard character.

As far as spontaneous caters go, they get all their spells as class features and have no other way of expanding their spell list (feats are class features too after all), therefore WBL is not an issue for them.

Lycar

[Dark_Scary]

Do they? How do you assign a net worth to a Wizard's collection of spells? Every other class has to count everything they own against their supposed WBL.

No. If a Rogue can create an infinite amount of something for 0gp, I don't count it against his WBL. Same for the Wizard. If he spends money on something, it counts towards with WBL. If he doesn't spend any money, but magics it out of the air, it doesn't cost anything.

I also don't charge Soulknives a bunch of money every time they manifest a weapon. Or even once. They get the weapon for free, because if you can create something with no money input, it doesn't count against WBL.


Taking the price of the scroll + the cost of the ink is a baseline everybody can work with

No, taking the actual cost detailed in the PHB and SRD for copying + the cost in ink is a baseline that everyone can work with.

Using scrolls to cost spells is wrong. It is bad. It is not how you do it, since how you do it is explicitly stated in the PHB.


If you do not do that, I would consider this to be grossly unfair towards every non-wizard character.

And I would consider it grossly unfair to soulknives to charge them for their weapon.


As far as spontaneous caters go, they get all their spells as class features and have no other way of expanding their spell list (feats are class features too after all), therefore WBL is not an issue for them.

1) Knowstones and Runestaves. Spontaneous Casters can increase spells known with WBL.
2) Logical argument:

a) It is a class ability of Wizards to cast spells.
b) Spells allow a Wizard to add for free any spell into his spellbook.
Therefore c) It is a class ability of Wizards to add for free any spell into their spellbook.

[Melamoto]

Specific trumps general. The specific spell says it does something that the general rule says it can't, specific wins.
Could you please point me to the specific rule where it says you can copy spells from other spellbooks for free?

EDIT: Just saw the spell. But if one of my players tried to pull that, then a Sorcerer might just sneak greater invisibilitied into the camp and erase all of the spells in the night. Perhaps they were servants of the big bad. Guess it serves them right for trying to pull out freebies.


1) Knowstones and Runestaves. Spontaneous Casters can increase spells known with WBL.
Highlighted the key difference between them and wizards.

[TheCountAlucard]

EDIT: Just saw the spell. But if one of my players tried to pull that, then a Sorcerer might just sneak greater invisibilitied into the camp and erase all of the spells in the night. Perhaps they were servants of the big bad. Guess it serves them right for trying to pull out freebies.Why not just kill the PCs? Gimping the wizard that badly would likely have the same effect anyway. :smallannoyed:

[Melamoto]

I don't consider it "gimping" a wizard to stop him from getting almost unlimited free spells that put his equivalent WBL through the roof compared to other characters.

[TheCountAlucard]

I don't consider it "gimping" a wizard to stop him from getting almost unlimited free spells that put his equivalent WBL through the roof compared to other characters.No, but it is gimping the Wizard to consequently erase his entire spellbook. It's so much easier to simply tell the player in question, "Hey, no. Just no. Thanks for trying, though."

[Lycar]

No. If a Rogue can create an infinite amount of something for 0gp, I don't count it against his WBL. Same for the Wizard. If he spends money on something, it counts towards with WBL. If he doesn't spend any money, but magics it out of the air, it doesn't cost anything.


Given all the ways (spells) mages have to 'create something from nothing', this would be highly abuseable. Characters are not supposed to break the WBL guidelines by creating infinite wealth and then going to shop in the next Magic Mart.

What would be the result? The characters being so far above WBL that, by all rights, the DM can never, ever let them have any loot at all? Because they would have to be, say, 5 levels higher then they are to cover the stuff they now have with their supposed WBL? :smallconfused:


I also don't charge Soulknives a bunch of money every time they manifest a weapon. Or even once. They get the weapon for free, because if you can create something with no money input, it doesn't count against WBL.

I would rather say, they don't get charged for their class feature in the same way a Wizard doesn't get charged anything for the spells he receives by level-up.


No, taking the actual cost detailed in the PHB and SRD for copying + the cost in ink is a baseline that everyone can work with.

Okay. So basically, a spellbook costs 15 gp, to fill a page costs 150 gp and thus, a full spellbook, no matter if it's 100 pages are covered with 100 level 1 spells or 11 level 9 spells is worth... 15.015 gp then?

Because every Wizard who ever lived only ever got spells from other Wizards by asking nicely and paying 50 gp x spell level. :smallconfused:

Uhm... ok. Need to subtract the worth of the spells the Wizard got for free, (33 levels/pages worth of spells, so about 5000 gp) but whatever.

This works out to about 10 spells of every level from 1 to 4, a nice list for, say, a 7th level Wizard.

So his spellbook, if filled to the last page is worth about 10.000 gp. Out of a supposed WBL of 19.000 gp. Is that about correct then?



1) Knowstones and Runestaves. Spontaneous Casters can increase spells known with WBL.
2) Logical argument:

a) It is a class ability of Wizards to cast spells.
b) Spells allow a Wizard to add for free any spell into his spellbook.
Therefore c) It is a class ability of Wizards to add for free any spell into their spellbook.

Where are Knowstones and Runestaves from? Magic Item Compendium I presume. So great, spontaneous casters can actually buy more spells known now. As gear. Which does not mean that a Wizard's spells, which he gets past his class features ought to come free of charge.

As for your class ability example...

a) It is a class feature of Fighters to fight.
b) Fighting allows fighters to kill things and take their stuff.
Therefore c) it is a class ability of Fighters to add for free any piece of gear to their equipment they can get their hands on by killing things.

EDIT:
Okay, lets go with that aforementioned 7th level Wizard, to be freshly created for a PbP game. His spells he receives for being a Wizard 7 are worth roughly 5000 gp.

So what limit would you set for this character to expand his library? Same amount in spells? Double that? As much as he wants, up to WBL? Half WBL?

Lycar

[Twilight Jack]

Why not just kill the PCs? Gimping the wizard that badly would likely have the same effect anyway. :smallannoyed:

Oooo, touchy. :smallwink:

I'm with Melamoto on this one, but only just marginally. The way I figure it, the wizard has a choice. He can pay out 100 gp per page to scribe his spells the old fashioned way, or he can try to bypass that cost by casting secret page, one casting per page so bypassed (the spell does nothing to change that spells of 2nd or higher level require more than one page). If he chooses the latter option, he's trying to use magic to get something for nothing (and the chicks for free).

At that point, he accepts all associated risks that traditionally come with using magic to accomplish a task that could be accomplished without it (by traditionally, I mean not only within D&D but an entire body of myth and literature dealing with the subject of magic).

Better hope none of your enemies ever learn of your little trick, or your spellbook's got a targeted dispel magic headed its way. That's the price you pay to play.

And I'd let the player know this, subtly, by insisting that he record his caster level for every secret page he casts for the purpose of inscribing his spellbook for free.

And that targeted dispel is gonna get a check against every seperate casting of secret page (ie, a 7th level spell inscribed this way needs to survive 7 seperate dispel checks to remain viable). By the way, any spell in a spellbook that has even a single page of its text erased is ruined until the wizard can replace the missing pages. That requires a complete source by which to refer to the spell, and 100 gp (or another secret page if you want to keep riding that tiger) per page that needs replacing.

And you know what? That's not at all unfair. I'm not the kind of DM who sets out to deprive wizards of their spellbooks. I understand that the damn thing comprises the sum total of their character's class abilities. I don't cackle gleefully while rendering my players helpless at my whim. A wizard player in one of my games who takes reasonable precautions to protect his spellbook is unlikely to have it taken from him unless the plot calls for it in some fashion (and then only temporarily). A player who takes flagrant risks with his spellbook or attempts to circumvent the reasonable costs associated with its upkeep, on the other hand, has a decent chance of finding out about the "cost" of getting something for free.

Don't like it? Pay your 100 gp like a mensch or go invest the cash and XP to make yourself a blessed book (which makes an honest woman of your secret page trick).

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, definitely keep track of the cost for Wizards acquiring new spells. That's their meat and potatoes, so they shouldn't begrudge the investment. It's also common knowledge among thieves and sneaky enemies just how valuable those spellbooks are, so Wizard players shouldn't cry foul if their PCs' spellbooks get snatched because they didn't safeguard them adequately. By the same token, enemy spellcasters will have a substantial portion of their gear in spell preparation so there's an opportunity to acquire scrolls and spellbooks from combat.

Wealth by Level is a guideline of how much stuff characters should have to face typical challenges. It shouldn't be an automatic influx of wealth, but rather the usual result of repeated use of DMG Table 3-3: Treasure Values per Encounter. Variations due to player actions (and inactions) should be expected and even encouraged. A Wizard who isn't security-conscious and gets their spellbook stolen will be under the WbL value for a while, but that will automatically create an interesting side quest where the assistance of other party members is essential; I like that sort of player-driven drama. And a PC who gets odd gear and manages to keep and use the stuff (by taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency/Monkey Grip or new class levels) will have greater wealth than characters who sell everything at the usual price -- but they've bought that extra wealth at the cost of feats or levels, so it's all copacetic; and they've probably taken their character in a new and interesting direction.

Just keep everything organic while following the rules. Cost of spells is an inherent part of the D&D system.

[mostlyharmful]

But if one of my players tried to pull that, then a Sorcerer might just sneak greater invisibilitied into the camp and erase all of the spells in the night. Perhaps they were servants of the big bad. Guess it serves them right for trying to pull out freebies.

There are about a million ways to make sure nobody sneaks up on you in the night, that your book is protected if they are, that you don't have your book on you or that you have another five copies kept nearby which aren't affected.

Never go for the book, the faster and easier way is to just kill the party and then try to work out how the mage hid it and how it was protected. And DMs should just say if its not allowed, far easier and less likely to result in escalating cheese until everyone BUT the wizard is dead.

[Dark_Scary]

Better hope none of your enemies ever learn of your little trick, or your spellbook's got a targeted dispel magic headed its way. That's the price you pay to play.

And I'd let the player know this, subtly, by insisting that he record his caster level for every secret page he casts for the purpose of inscribing his spellbook for free.

And that targeted dispel is gonna get a check against every seperate casting of secret page (ie, a 7th level spell inscribed this way needs to survive 7 seperate dispel checks to remain viable). By the way, any spell in a spellbook that has even a single page of its text erased is ruined until the wizard can replace the missing pages. That requires a complete source by which to refer to the spell, and 100 gp (or another secret page if you want to keep riding that tiger) per page that needs replacing.

And you know what? That's not at all unfair. I'm not the kind of DM who sets out to deprive wizards of their spellbooks. I understand that the damn thing comprises the sum total of their character's class abilities. I don't cackle gleefully while rendering my players helpless at my whim. A wizard player in one of my games who takes reasonable precautions to protect his spellbook is unlikely to have it taken from him unless the plot calls for it in some fashion (and then only temporarily). A player who takes flagrant risks with his spellbook or attempts to circumvent the reasonable costs associated with its upkeep, on the other hand, has a decent chance of finding out about the "cost" of getting something for free.

1) The whole point of Secret Page is that it allows you to make as many free books as you want. Which means one hidden in a shadow pocket somewhere, one in your house, one at your mage guild, one in a temple of Boccob, and one in your Handy Haversack.

2) You do realize that by placing your secret page spellbook in a Handy Haversack it becomes immune to dispel magic right? And that by extension, it doesn't matter if they know about it and try to dispel your book, since they don't have line of effect to your book they can't dispel.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Umm... maybe I'm looking at the wrong spell, but how does Secret Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) allow you to scribe spells for free? It just makes them harder for other wizards to steal.

In any and every game I run, Any spell not obtained at level up or character creation counts against your WBL. Period. Also, some spells are simply not available. For example, no one has the spell Celerity available for purchase. Neither does any friendly wizard have it available. Neither does any hostile mage have it in their spellbook.

Then again, NPC arcane casters tend to either be Warlocks or some sort of spontaneous caster so I don't have to completely throw off the WBL guide by listing a very expensive spellbook in the NPC's equipment. So the only meaningful way to obtain spells will be either scroll form or finding a mage willing to allow you to scribe (for a fee) a spell into your book. In general, I have a Wizard's Guild, which has libraries which wizards who are members of the Guild can (for the listed fee) scribe spells into their book. Wizard-to-Wizard transactions are strongly discouraged, every wizard in the guild is supposed to simply refer the inquirer to the Library. Of course, some spells are listed as 'restricted', and you need to have a certain clearance to gain access to them (like most abusable spells, such as Celerity and Polymorph). To gain access to these spells, you have to go on too many quests to bother with (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71sVv__DryA).

This provides suitable plot hooks when the players are between adventures, by hearing about someone who has some spell or another which the party wizard really wants, and they have to figure out how to obtain it. Now here's the fun part: my players are smart enough to know what the concequences of certain spells in the game would mean (i.e. the wizard being more powerful than the rest of the party combined), so the rest of the party really has no interest or desire in obtaining some of the more broken spells, because they don't want to become obsolete and ruin their fun.

So, costs for spells? Depends. For spells in the Library, it's your standard 50*spell level + any other associated costs (100/page, or 1gp/page for Blessed Book).

[Twilight Jack]

1) The whole point of Secret Page is that it allows you to make as many free books as you want. Which means one hidden in a shadow pocket somewhere, one in your house, one at your mage guild, one in a temple of Boccob, and one in your Handy Haversack.

2) You do realize that by placing your secret page spellbook in a Handy Haversack it becomes immune to dispel magic right? And that by extension, it doesn't matter if they know about it and try to dispel your book, since they don't have line of effect to your book they can't dispel.

I'm aware of both of these things, yes. You are very clever. Both defenses are certainly viable. It doesn't change the baseline point. Using secret page to make all of your spellbooks for free exposes them to a new set of risks for which you must account. And removes any in-game compunctions a DM should have about targeting them if the opportunity presents itself.

If the wizard adequately defends the book(s), then it may not become an issue.

And no fair whining if it does. :smallsmile:

[lesser_minion]

My personal take on the rules for learning spells is that wizards must pay out of their WBL to obtain additional spells, but I'm pretty sure that the costs imposed were intended almost entirely for flavour, rather than being a balancing factor. The same goes for material component costs.

I'm also pretty sure that the designers tried to balance spells based on the assumption that wizards learned spells like clerics (if limited spell access was at all intended to be a balancing factor, I think they would have made it concrete as they did for sorcerers).

A more general point related to what you have said does stand, however - theoretical optimisation does make the game sound much more broken than it is (spoilered for tangent).

I think part of this problem relates to the way people interpret the Oberoni Principle, that the formal existence of a Rule 0 does not justify the presence of badly written (unbalanced, overcomplicated, ambiguous, or poorly-functioning) rules in a game.

It's a reasonable concept, but it does not justify assuming that every ambiguous rule will always work in your favour - or worse, that you can do things that are never actually mentioned in a given spell description (Genesis cheese, for example, or this Secret Page cheese).

Bear in mind that the ability to extend these games (to house rule!) is actually a design feature.


Back on topic, you are right to call into question whether or not we should really be assuming that a 9th level wizard has access to every spell he could need.

As Mostly_Harmful pointed out, however, there aren't actually that many spells which are necessary.

[Kantolin]

Judging from the discussions on these boards, all mages always get all spells ever conceived shoved up their ...

Actually, that's generally not true. It is sometimes true, mind you, but not usually.

If the statement is, "Can this character/idea beat any wizards at all?" then the answer is yes. I mean, you can theoretically make a functional wizard who has no particularly offensive nor defensive spells outside of Mount.

If the statement is, "Can this character/idea beat this /particular/ wizard?" then you can usually look at the wizard and analyze things. Sometimes this depends on 'and wins initiative', or perhaps 'how much time is given to buff', or whatever.

Now, the statement is usually more along the lines of 'This character/idea can beat all wizards everywhere!'. In which this is usually incorrect - there's probably a spell out there somewhere which can help. This is where you get the Schrödinger 'problem' in that it's not really a problem at all. A grappling build is defeated by Freedom of Movement via spell or ring. Thus, when someone says 'grapple can beat wizards!', the response is '...unless they have freedom of movement'.

Now, a potentially more useful question is 'Can this character beat /most/ wizards?', which varies based on who you ask a bit. Some spells are generally considered all-encompassingly useful to the point where most wizards will have it (for example, fly), thus a tactic which requires the wizard to patiently be standing on the ground probably isn't viable. Some effects are only beaten by a single obscure splatbook spell somewhere, which probably isn't on any wizards at all.

Some things - 'I have a high reflex save and evasion' - can be summed up with, 'That would stop a fireball-throwing wizard, so if that's what you're up against you're good, but it has no defense against fort or will save spells'.

But overall, most people usually don't actually have a Schrödinger wizard in these debates. Can /every/ wizard stop any given effect? Probably not. But there's probably a spell out there which does indeed fix whatever problem's being stated, and people are likely to bring it up as an 'if the wizard has...'

[Dark_Scary]

Umm... maybe I'm looking at the wrong spell, but how does Secret Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) allow you to scribe spells for free? It just makes them harder for other wizards to steal.

You can take a page with anything at all on it, or nothing at all on it (IE a blank page in your spellbook) and place anything at all on it, including explicitly a spell.

Therefore, if you go to the friendly Wizard, and he allows you to look at his book for free, this is the procedure you must go through to get the spell in your spellbook:

1) Decipher the spell: (Spellcraft DC 20 + the spell’s level or Read Magic)
2) Spend a day studying the spell: (Spellcraft DC 15 + spell’s level)
3) Now he "understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook"
4) Must cast Secret Page a number of times equal to the number of pages.

This bypasses the cost of getting magical inks.

No, if you don't have a friendly Wizard to borrow a spellbook from, then you resort to this option: "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp." And something not in the SRD but in the PHB: "Sometimes Wizards will trade spells with each other." Now, you can either think that they both rip pages out of their book and permanently give up spells for other spells like trading cards. Or they could each copy each others spell.

[Lycar]

So, costs for spells? Depends. For spells in the Library, it's your standard 50*spell level + any other associated costs (100/page, or 1gp/page for Blessed Book).

That seems to be the consensus then. What bother me is that this formula is inconsistent with the item creation rules in the DMG though.

A magic armour costs 1000 gp x square od level of enhancement. So, +1 = 1000gp, +2 4000gp and so on. Double that for weapons.

Spells on the other hand cost 50 gp x level. Why not 50 gp x level x level?
The increase in cost would not actually be that significant. Even a 9th level spell would work out just over 4000gp, a pittance for a 17th lv+ Wizard.

Also, even we we do not bother with the costs for spellbooks to figure into a Wizards WBL, then this begs the question:

What rules or guidelines do you use to regulate what spells a freshly created nth level Wizard character can have in his spellbook(s)?

What stops a player from simply adding up the number of pages it takes to copy the entire Spell Compendium, divide by 100, multiply by 15 and deduct that amount from his starting gold?

Of course you would say no to that, but where do you draw the line?

Making extra spells worth something that counts towards your WBL would at least help establish a guideline. Something like 'maximum of half your WBL for extra spells' for example.

So, how do you handle that in your games then?

Lycar

[lesser_minion]

Regarding Secret Page Cheese:

The only thing it actually mentions can be made into a spell is another spell. There is no reason for the DM to interpret Secret Page as literally allowing the player to scribe spells for free (although it would in that case allow the spells to be scribed for half price).

In addition, the DM could probably make a pretty strong case for 'the additional spell shown to be 'resembles but is not the same as' - after all, this is how most illusions work.

I'm also going to point out that you cannot assume that what appears to be an unintended and very powerful side benefit to a spell as written will necessarily see play.

[Jayabalard]

You can take a page with anything at all on it, or nothing at all on it (IE a blank page in your spellbook) and place anything at all on it, including explicitly a spell.It doesn't explicitly say that you can prepare the spell from the secret copy (at least, it doesn't in the SRD), just that it appears to be that spell.

On a different note... if the spell is being abused in this fashion, it wouldn't be reasonable to see the cost of will-o’-wisp essence to go up significantly.


This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp." And something not in the SRD but in the PHB: "Sometimes Wizards will trade spells with each other." Usually, but not always; wizards are going to know what spells are more valuable than others and, being intelligent, are likely to charge more for them than the stock 50gp/lvl for anything that is on the high end of the power curve. I'd also expect them to mostly be totally unwilling to sell certain spells, in order to limit competition and increase their own personally safety.

Sometimes does not imply that it is often the case; given the level of paranoia that wizards have, I'd expect most of them to refuse to trade spells with anyone that they did not trust pretty well. So the random wizard you came across isn't likely to be willing trade, and you'd be running the risk that he'd take your book and run.

[arkol]

Question for the OP (and anyone who argees with him).

Classic party fininhes an advetnure and goes to town do the ussual stuff. Sell loot, look for magic items and whatever.

Wizard has found a couple of scrolls which he wants to scribe into his spellbook.
The rogue goes on his own solo mission for his guild to steal some whatever.
The cleric goes to his temple trying to find out the next ploot hook.
The fighter with nothing better left to do goes on to put those Craft (Boyer) ranks to use and crafts a Mwk Composite Longbow with a str rating of +2, and sells it for extra money. He just spent 200gp to make 300gp, thus an obvious profit of 100gp. Does this coutn against his WBL?

If it does then what's the point of such skills? Prc requisites? ´Cause if using the skills he got puts him ahed of the rest of the party in WBL, and the party/DM are actually gonna do something about it then there is no point in doing it right?

[nightwyrm]

Just to throw a wrench into things...
If you capture an NPC's spellbook, you don't necessarily have to copy the spells. There are rules for preparing spells from other people's spellbooks or even "mastering" someone else's book.

Of course, if you do decide to copy the spells, you can then sell the old NPC spellbook at a pretty good price.

[lord_khaine]

also it should be notet that even with just the basic 2 spells per a level a wizard can become a living engine of destruction.

[Zeful]

Never go for the book, the faster and easier way is to just kill the party and then try to work out how the mage hid it and how it was protected. And DMs should just say if its not allowed, far easier and less likely to result in escalating cheese until everyone BUT the wizard is dead.

Incorrect, most wizard player ignore the book on the hope that not drawing attention to it will be better protection. Further that is the advice given to anyone asking how to protect their book, often time given several times a thread. So it will be easier to steal and then burn the book, than it would to kill the party.


It doesn't cost scroll prices to copy spells into your book, [/URL] It costs 50xspell level since you and another mage will be at the same level and each has a personal interest to swap spells to broaden their repitoir and thus power.Why? Wizards are smart enough to choose the most optimal spells for the 2 free ones they get, they wouldn't need anymore than that. Further that assumes that you actually run into another wizard that is at least willing to sell you their spells, which isn't universally true.

[Dark_Scary]

That seems to be the consensus then. What bother me is that this formula is inconsistent with the item creation rules in the DMG though.

A magic armour costs 1000 gp x square od level of enhancement. So, +1 = 1000gp, +2 4000gp and so on. Double that for weapons.

Spells on the other hand cost 50 gp x level. Why not 50 gp x level x level?
The increase in cost would not actually be that significant. Even a 9th level spell would work out just over 4000gp, a pittance for a 17th lv+ Wizard.

No, it is not inconsistent with the DMG guidelines. Just because one thing is squared does not mean everything must be.

It could be the realization that the difference between preparing 1 EBT, 1 Assay Resistance, 1 Orb of Fire, and 3 Solid Fogs and preparing 1 EBT, 1 Assay Resistance, 1 Orb of Fire, 1 Solid Fog, 1 Greater Mirror Image, and 1 Overland Flight is not a square value, but merely an addition. Since you are not gaining more spell slots, merely more things to place in those slots.

So it's actually more like buying a +2 sword, a +1 flaming sword, a +1 icy sword, ect.

In which case the costs are not squared.

You'll notice the costs for pearls of power do represent a squaring of the base.


What rules or guidelines do you use to regulate what spells a freshly created nth level Wizard character can have in his spellbook(s)?

I tell them to have whatever spells they want of anything under their maximum level spell. And of that level, they may either pay 50gp per spell level for each additional, or justify their friend who also had the spells.


What stops a player from simply adding up the number of pages it takes to copy the entire Spell Compendium, divide by 100, multiply by 15 and deduct that amount from his starting gold?

Well, if they do so for everything but their maximum spell level, nothing. Well, except that 90% of the spell compendium is non Wizard spells. And that fully 3/4ths of the Wizard spells are crap I wouldn't write down even for free.


Of course you would say no to that, but where do you draw the line?

No, I would be perfectly fine with that.


Regarding Secret Page Cheese:

The only thing it actually mentions can be made into a spell is another spell. There is no reason for the DM to interpret Secret Page as literally allowing the player to scribe spells for free (although it would in that case allow the spells to be scribed for half price).

The DM could probably make a pretty strong case for 'look like' to be 'resembles but is mechanically different to'.

Well if your DM rules that the word 'blue' looks like the word 'blue' but is mechanically different. Then you can just point out that the word 'damage' looks like but is different from the word 'damage' and so all the 'damage' done by attacks is different than the 'damage' done to you, and you become immortal.


It doesn't explicitly say that you can prepare the spell from the secret copy (at least, it doesn't in the SRD), just that it appears to be that spell.

It also doesn't explicitly state that you can prepare spells from words you wrote on your spellbook with magic ink.

It does explicitly state you can prepare spells from your spellbook, such as this spell in your spellbook.


Usually, but not always; wizards are going to know what spells are more valuable than others and, being intelligent, are likely to charge more for them than the stock 50gp/lvl.

Sometimes does not imply that it is often the case; given the level of paranoia that wizards have, I'd expect most of them to refuse to trade spells with anyone that they did not trust pretty well. So the random wizard you came across isn't likely to be willing trade, and you'd be running the risk that he'd take your book and run.

Which is why I said, "If you have a friendly Wizard you might..." And "Otherwise you might pay..."

But you are totally wrong about the charging more thing. 50gp is for good spells worth having in your spellbook. No one buys bad spells at all.

[Jayabalard]

If it does then what's the point of such skills? Some people like to make their own stuff.

The bottom line is that the WBL are guidelines to say how much stuff people should have at a given level, regardless of where they got it.

[Fhaolan]

Sometimes does not imply that it is often the case; given the level of paranoia that wizards have, I'd expect most of them to refuse to trade spells with anyone that they did not trust pretty well. So the random wizard you came across isn't likely to be willing trade, and you'd be running the risk that he'd take your book and run.

Also, as stated they will wish to trade. Which means you have to have some spell they *don't* have that they want. Given how all NPC wizards seem to have all spells, that's going to be tricky. :smallbiggrin:

[Jayabalard]

It also doesn't explicitly state that you can prepare spells from words you wrote on your spellbook with magic ink.sounds good, you can only prepare either sort via DM fiat.

It does explicitly state you can prepare spells from your spellbook, such as this spell in your spellbook.It's not in your spell book; it just appears to be that spell. It's not actually recorded there. There's a clear procedure to how spells actually get scribed into books, and you haven't followed it. "She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook <snip>"


But you are totally wrong about the charging more thing. 50gp is for good spells worth having in your spellbook. No one buys bad spells at all.I really can't agree; the wording indicates that 50gp is the average, so it's what people charge for the middle of the road spells. Noone buys the bad one. People charge an arm and a leg (or maybe more) for really good ones, if they sell them at all.

[Riffington]

He just spent 200gp to make 300gp, thus an obvious profit of 100gp. Does this coutn against his WBL?


against? You should say towards.
What I mean by this is: WBL is not an entitlement. It is not the amount of gold you are "supposed" to get. It means "if you have this much gold worth of treasure, you are probably set up to handle challenges with CR a bit above your level." If you have higher wealth, higher stats, are a druid instead of a fighter, have that money spent optimally, etc, you can handle harder fights.

So if the fighter makes a profit of 100gp, the DM can ramp up the party's fights a tenth of a notch.

[lesser_minion]

If you have never used a spell before, you must make a spellcraft check the first time you attempt to prepare it. If you fail that check, you aren't permitted to retry without gaining another rank in spellcraft. The rule ceases to be relevant at high levels, admittedly.

You can also prepare a spell from a stolen spellbook. Failing the associated spellcraft check stops you preparing the spell that day.


Well if your DM rules that the word 'blue' looks like the word 'blue' but is mechanically different. Then you can just point out that the word 'damage' looks like but is different from the word 'damage' and so all the 'damage' done by attacks is different than the 'damage' done to you, and you become immortal.

Please leave out the Reductio ad Absurdum. You haven't disproved anything.

In the context of this spell, an illusion intended to conceal written texts, you have given no reason for a DM to assume that the spell that a Secret Page has been made to resemble, is actually fully functional. By Rules as Written, the secret page "appears to be something completely different". It does not say "you change a page of written text into something completely different, while still making the original text accessible".

The DM is under no obligation to rule that something which "appears" to be something else actually is something else, as it kind of goes against the entire point of illusions, including this spell.


No, it is not inconsistent with the DMG guidelines. Just because one thing is squared does not mean everything must be.


It goes against a general rule that could be applied to its case. Therefore it is inconsistent. All you have done is justified the change, you haven't actually demonstrated it not to exist.

[Jayabalard]

against? You should say towards.
What I mean by this is: WBL is not an entitlement. It is not the amount of gold you are "supposed" to get. It means "if you have this much gold worth of treasure, you are probably set up to handle challenges with CR a bit above your level." If you have higher wealth, higher stats, are a druid instead of a fighter, have that money spent optimally, etc, you can handle harder fights.

So if the fighter makes a profit of 100gp, the DM can ramp up the party's fights a tenth of a notch.Exactly; very clearly put.

[Lycar]

The fighter with nothing better left to do goes on to put those Craft (Boyer) ranks to use and crafts a Mwk Composite Longbow with a str rating of +2, and sells it for extra money. He just spent 200gp to make 300gp, thus an obvious profit of 100gp. Does this coutn against his WBL?

If it does then what's the point of such skills? Prc requisites? ´Cause if using the skills he got puts him ahed of the rest of the party in WBL, and the party/DM are actually gonna do something about it then there is no point in doing it right?

The better question would be: Does it count against his WBL if he now has a MW Composite Longbow with a Str rating of +2, which he did not previously have?

If you create items, and the usual suspects here are the caster types anyway, you get additional gear. That counts against your WBL.

Why would a Wizard want to craft a, say, Wand of Fireball? Well, somethings things just need to go boom but he doesn't want to waste spell slots for fireball.

Now he simply doesn't have enough spare cash to go to the next magic mart and buy one (or the campaign he finds himself in is oddly bereft of magic marts), but he has enough cash to craft one.

What is the difference for him? He has that wand now, usable right from the start of the next adventure. Otherwise, the party would possibly make enough money on that adventure to allow the mage to buy the wand afterwards.

The 100gp the fighter just earned are not worth anything until he actually spends them on something. If he buys two tanglefoot bags, that is equipment.

Likewise, if he wants such a bow and is just a few gp short of actually buying one, crafting it himself means he has it availabe now instead just after the next adventure.

And won't he congratulate himself for this when that extra +2 damage from his new, improved bow actually made a difference fighting those harpys?

And isn't the Wizard going to be glad he spent the time making that wand of fireballs when it is that item that allowed the party to defeat that army of abominable snowmen?


[About player copying the entire SC for free]
No, I would be perfectly fine with that.

Why? Does your gaming style allow you to still challenge a Wizard player who has about all spells ever in his arsenal? If so, how do you manage to pull this off? :smalleek:

Lycar

[lesser_minion]

against? You should say towards.
What I mean by this is: WBL is not an entitlement. It is not the amount of gold you are "supposed" to get. It means "if you have this much gold worth of treasure, you are probably set up to handle challenges with CR a bit above your level." If you have higher wealth, higher stats, are a druid instead of a fighter, have that money spent optimally, etc, you can handle harder fights.

So if the fighter makes a profit of 100gp, the DM can ramp up the party's fights a tenth of a notch.

WBL is actually nothing more than the average amount of treasure a PC will have obtained by reaching a given level through 'standard' encounters where the DM rolls treasure randomly for each encounter.

It's only uses in game are as a guidelines for DMs who want to set treasure, and as a guideline for the total value of equipment a starting PC should be given if above 1st level.

It doesn't even apply universally to all characters.

[Dark_Scary]

If you have never used a spell before, you must make a spellcraft check the first time you attempt to prepare it. If you fail that check, you aren't permitted to retry without gaining another rank in spellcraft. The rule ceases to be relevant at high levels, admittedly.

Yes, levels as high as level 1:

You can take ten on the check. A level 1 Human Wizard with Int of 16 has a +7 modifier against DC 16. He succeeds.

A level 2 Wizard, still going against DC 16 has a modifier of +10. Ect.


Please leave out the Reductio ad Absurdum. You haven't disproved anything.

Reductio ad Absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) is an actual argument.

I have proved your statement wrong by noting it's logical conclusions.

If A wizard Secret Page copies Moby **** on top of blank pages, and you read the Moby ****, have you in fact read Moby ****? Yes you have.

Spells written in spellbooks are merely information. If you tell me that the same exact information does different things despite being the exact same information, then I have no reason to think that damage operates the same way every time, sometimes 20HP damage might just not do 20Hp damage.

If a writing is an illusion of another writing, then anyone reading that writing will get all the same benefits of reading the other writing. Because they are words.

EDIT: in retrospect. I will use Tom Sawyer in future examples.

[Dark_Scary]

Why? Does your gaming style allow you to still challenge a Wizard player who has about all spells ever in his arsenal? If so, how do you manage to pull this off? :smalleek:

Yes it does. Because he can only prepare a certain number of spells, and he was already going to prepare the best spells possible before I gave him access to infinite less good spells.

[Jayabalard]

Reductio ad Absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) is an actual argument.yes, but when you make false analogies to do so you've moved into fallacy land.


If A wizard Secret Page copies Moby **** on top of blank pages, and you read the Moby ****, have you in fact read Moby ****? Yes you have.This isn't a spell, false analogy.

[Lycar]

Yes it does. Because he can only prepare a certain number of spells, and he was already going to prepare the best spells possible before I gave him access to infinite less good spells.

So you are basically saying, trying to put a gp worth on a Wizard's library isn't worth the hassle, because the real deciding factor is, how many spell slots he has available at any given time?

EDIT: What about scrolls though? Sure, those would count towards his WBL, but they would enable him to pretty much have all spells available at all times, provided he has enough funds to scribe all those scrolls.

Wouldn't that be problematic still?

Lycar

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would not allow Secret Page cheese in any game I ran.

In effect, it isn't scribed properly. You use the special materials which cost 100gp/page to create the matrix of magic which is then stored in the wizard's brain when memorized. Because you didn't make that matrix, the page looks exactly identical to the page of whatever spell, however it could not be used to memorize spells because it doesn't have the matrix embedded into it. It would be like someone creating an exact duplicate of a circuit board out of plaster, and painting it so that it looks exactly like the original circuit board. That doesn't mean it can be plugged into a computer and be expected to fufill it's function.

Now, you could do this with a Blessed Book, because it already contains the magical matrix, and simply needs to be defined. However, there would be no advantage to doing so.

As far as handling wizards starting out at higher than 1st level, here's what I do:

First, you start out with the spells which you get from your class, for free. These go in, no problem, no cost.

For every other spell, you have to pay scroll value. This is the penalty for rolling up a higher level character to start off with, and to limit Schrodinger Wizard syndrome.

In fact, I'm strongly tempted to house-rule the scribing costs to be 25 × level of spell × level of caster, just because paying a flat 450 for a 9th level spell is absurd.

[lesser_minion]

Reductio ad Absurdum is an actual argument.

I am familiar with Reductio ad Absurdum in both the context where it is acceptable, and the contexts where it is not.

In this case, I was referring to Reductio ad Absurdum where it is actually a specific case of the Straw Man fallacy (or, as Wikipedia puts it, the case of the Straw Man fallacy arising from an attempt to use Reductio ad Absurdum inappropriately). Please re-read the article you linked, as you have disproven nothing (as this was the entire substance of your counter-argument).

In any event, the spell is clearly NOT intended to bypass spell-scribing costs. No DM would be under any obligation to permit it in game, and it should probably be assumed that they won't. You are still misapplying the rules as you interpret them in order to get something that the spell is not meant to give you.

[Jayabalard]

The SRD says "At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own." ... this doesn't mention anything about cost. But I don't think you'll find many people that will agree that this means that they can copy other people's spells at no cost while walking down the street. It's just not explicitly defined.

Really, if you want to make a strictly raw argument, you really need everything to be spelled out in the RAW... otherwise it's no more valid than any other RAW + interpretation argument. Since free spell copies via secret spell hinges on interpretation, there's nothing that makes it more valid than making the opposite interpretation.

[lesser_minion]

Even 'pure' RAW arguments aren't necessarily enough. The Oberoni Principle can demonstrate that a rule is broken or badly written, but really all that means is that the editing staff for the product should be considering their positions.

Using the Oberoni Principle to justify the assumption that RAW will always be how the game is played, even where the RAW are clearly incorrect or do not work properly is actually a fallacy in and of itself.

[Dark_Scary]

So you are basically saying, trying to put a gp worth on a Wizard's library isn't worth the hassle, because the real deciding factor is, how many spell slots he has available at any given time?

EDIT: What about scrolls though? Sure, those would count towards his WBL, but they would enable him to pretty much have all spells available at all times, provided he has enough funds to scribe all those scrolls.

Wouldn't that be problematic still?

Yes and more Yes. I am saying both that gp cost on Wizard library isn't worth the hassle, and that in fact, the Wizard class should be expected to have many spells of each level, and it is assumed in their class features.

Also, a full account of WBL per the rules results in the realization that per 13.3 encounters each character would gain a good amount more than the increase in WBL according to the treasure drop rules, and this is to account for consumable usage. I consider Wizards adding to their spellbook to be a part of that.

As for the scrolls? No. If they want to waste money scribing every scroll that's not a big deal. Every time the use those scrolls, they expend money as appropriate. Every time they sit on a pile of scrolls, they just wasted a bunch of money not using the wealth for other things, but they also didn't get the scroll out of it.


This isn't a spell, false analogy.

No, Moby **** is also not a Magazine. But yet, it would work for Magazines too. Because it works for all "symbols on a page" which spells are a subset of.


I am familiar with Reductio ad Absurdum in both the context where it is acceptable, and the contexts where it is not.

In this case, I was referring to Reductio ad Absurdum where it is actually a specific case of the Straw Man fallacy (or, as Wikipedia puts it, the case of the Straw Man fallacy arising from an attempt to use Reductio ad Absurdum inappropriately). Please re-read the article you linked, as you have disproven nothing (as this was the entire substance of your counter-argument).

In any event, the spell is clearly NOT intended to bypass spell-scribing costs. No DM would be under any obligation to permit it in game, and it should probably be assumed that they won't. You are still misapplying the rules as you interpret them in order to get something that the spell is not meant to give you.

I am aware of the danger of Strawman arguments. Luckily, I am not dealing with that here, because Spells are exactly like all other symbols on a page. If you look at a symbol, and it tells you to do something, and you do that thing, it really doesn't matter if that was an illusion or not, the result of the thing you do is exactly the same.

And no, it is not intended to skip the costs of scribing. But I would argue the costs of scribing where never intended to subtract from WBL anyway, so it's really not a big deal.

[Dark_Scary]

The SRD says "At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own." ... this doesn't mention anything about cost. But I don't think you'll find many people that will agree that this means that they can copy other people's spells at no cost while walking down the street. It's just not explicitly defined.

Really, if you want to make a strictly raw argument, you really need everything to be spelled out in the RAW... otherwise it's no more valid than any other RAW + interpretation argument. Since free spell copies via secret spell hinges on interpretation, there's nothing that makes it more valid than making the opposite interpretation.


Even 'pure' RAW arguments aren't necessarily enough. The Oberoni Principle can demonstrate that a rule is broken or badly written, but really all that means is that the editing staff for the product should be considering their positions.

Using the Oberoni Principle to justify the assumption that RAW will always be how the game is played, even where the RAW are clearly incorrect or do not work properly is actually a fallacy in and of itself.

Both these miss the point entirely. I am not arguing based on Raw, or RAW + interpretation.

I am arguing that something is RAW. It also aids in playing the game as it was intended. And it is also better for the game to play it that way.

Yes Jaybalast, you are going to tell me better is subjective. But you know what, you are wrong to say that.

I am still going to say what I think is better regardless of subjective, and it is not subjective for certain goals. And these goals which it is better at accomplishing are axioms of the game. And in fact, this entire thread exists first and foremost to attempt to put in line how to accomplish those goals, and asks why so many people seem to act in favor of those goals, despite it being against some other goal that people say they want.

[Lamech]

It costs 6125gp to make a blessed book. I have a hard time seeing why their is such a large argument about 6.13gp per spell level. Thats 56gp for a ninth level spell. Thats so minor its not even funny. Especially when compared to fabricate. I say either allow it or ban it as cheese; I suspect coming up with rule based justifications will lead to a bad precident.

Also why would you targeted dispel a spellbook? Why not scorching ray it? Or shatter it? Works even if the mage fed you BS about secret page. Or is hidden in a extradimensional space (The ray). If a spellbook can be targeted the mage did something horribly wrong.

[Jayabalard]

No, Moby **** is also not a Magazine. But yet, it would work for Magazines too. Because it works for all "symbols on a page" which spells are a subset of.Firstly, it make the assumption spells are a subset of "symbols on a page" ... and I don't agree that is the case

Secondly, you can't make that generalization that way; That's equivalent to saying: A is a subset of C, and B is also a subset of C; since f(x) is true where x in A then it must be true that f(y) is true where y in B. The second statement does not follow from the first.


Both these miss the point entirely. I am not arguing based on Raw, or RAW + interpretation.

I am arguing that something is RAW. It also aids in playing the game as it was intended. And it is also better for the game to play it that way.These are contradictory statements; please make up your mind.

As for the latter statment, I disagree with all 3 of your assertions.

[The_Werebear]

Ok!

Innately, a Collegiate Wizard gets 365 pages of spells for free (assuming they pick the highest level spells available to them at the time, all the time).

There are 1452 pages of spells in the PHB that would not be immediately selected. Assuming Blessed Book, all it takes by RAW is the 50GP per level Library fee. This, like WBL, is the system's assumption of the appropriate amount. This means that it will cost the wizard 72,600 to get permission to copy the spells, and two Blessed Books to hold them all for another 25k.

So, it costs 97,600 GP to have every castable Wizard spell in the PHB in your Library of Spells available. This leaves approximately a metric crapton of cash available for other things inside of the WBL of a level 20th Wizard.

I will also hazard a guess that there are less useful wizard spells in the spell compendium than there are worthless spells in the PHB.

To answer the question: No, it is not unreasonable to assume the Hypothetical level 20 wizard used to prove wizards are awesome will have any spell he needs available to memorize from his books at any given time in addition to having cash needed to pay the fighter to dance for his amusement.

[lesser_minion]

Yet you have applied logic meant for the game world to reality in your argument.

On what basis do you assume that this is acceptable?

For scrolls, there is magic present in the writing itself - it isn't merely the information conveyed by the symbols that is important in casting the spell. The fact that the scroll is expended when you transcribe the spell it contains implies that there is actual magic bound within them.

Even if the secret page duplicated the exact same information, it still would not necessarily be enough to prepare the spell - the required magic would not be bound to the spell.

The fact that Comprehend Languages is necessary to read the original text also implies that the spell does a lot to obfuscate what is actually written. I think I would generally rule that the symbols depicted are:

Not sufficient in and of themselves to cast the spell Not exactly the same as the text of the spell as you would use it, nor are they sufficient to allow spells to be borrowed.


As for your argument that this is irrelevant:

Actually, it is quite relevant. At lower levels, spells could seriously dent a wizard's allowance.

WBL is not some magic constant which must be adhered to at all times - it is actually the average total amount of treasure a character will have obtained by a certain level. If a caster were played up to that level, they would have less money the more spells they have.

I agree that cost of spells is not intended as a balancing factor to the wizard (neither the cost of obtaining them nor the cost associated with ), but it doesn't actually change the fact that they should be counted against the wizard's starting allowance, in the same way as equipment costs would. Because if the character had been played to that level, he would not necessarily have paid off the costs of obtaining his spells.


Both these miss the point entirely. I am not arguing based on Raw, or RAW + interpretation.

I am arguing that something is RAW

I fail to see how I miss the point. You cannot assume that the game will be played by Rules as Written where there appears to be a difference between that and the intent behind those rules, especially when the rules as written provide a benefit that is unintended, and regardless of whether or not the benefit can be obtained by other means. If you want to use Secret Page to get round scribing costs, use it as the prerequisite to your Blessed Book.


I am still going to say what I think is better regardless of subjective, and it is not subjective for certain goals. And these goals which it is better at accomplishing are axioms of the game. And in fact, this entire thread exists first and foremost to attempt to put in line how to accomplish those goals, and asks why so many people seem to act in favor of those goals, despite it being against some other goal that people say they want.

What goals? What axioms? How is it objectively better? Please explain, as I do not see any self-evident or universally accepted goal of D&D that your solution supports.

Just because you have asserted something doesn't mean it's true. I do not yet see any positive goal which can be achieved by ignoring spell costs when creating characters above 1st level.


It costs 6125gp to make a blessed book. I have a hard time seeing why their is such a large argument about 6.13gp per spell level. Thats 56gp for a ninth level spell. Thats so minor its not even funny. Especially when compared to fabricate. I say either allow it or ban it as cheese; I suspect coming up with rule based justifications will lead to a bad precident.

Also why would you targeted dispel a spellbook? Why not scorching ray it? Or shatter it? Works even if the mage fed you BS about secret page. Or is hidden in a extradimensional space (The ray). If a spellbook can be targeted the mage did something horribly wrong.

Note that scrolls, libraries and so on cost money.

The cost is not intended as a balancing factor, and the only reason to factor it into the allowance a character receives at character creation is because the assumption is that WBL is roughly the value of treasure a character would have obtained if played to that level.

Alternatively, (1e Experience for a given level) = 1.9 x (3e experience for a given level.)

[Talya]

"Wealth-by-level" only applies to scenarios where you are creating a character at a particular level from scratch, rather than levelling them up. Rarely will actual wealth in a campaign adhere to WBL guidelines, although if a DM were to remove all randomness from treasure and strictly format his treasures to match WBL, it would be possible. So if we're discussing wealth-by-level, we're assuming you are starting at a level higher than 1.

Trading spells with another wizard is something that would need to be roleplayed. There aren't wizards in any given town with any spell you want to begin with, and a lot of them (most of them?) are going to be fanatically secret about their spellbooks. And one doesn't know in advance what they are going to have for trade. Any such interaction would take place in game, so it's entirely possible once play starts you will find such troves of spells depending how generous your DM is. However, during the character creation process, such interactions would not be available. When equipping a wizard from scratch, any spells other than their level-by-level allotment should generally be treated as if they were copied from scrolls. Getting a Blessed Book or two is likely worth it in the long run, as you then eliminate the supplies cost, but you're still going to need to pay for the scrolls themselves out of your wealth by level. Now, any DM who lets a wizard run amok collecting free spells from cheaper sources than scrolls deserves what he gets when the wizard takes over the campaign. You cannot, by RAW, simply assume there are people to trade spells with.

As for captured spellbooks, those are factored into WBL, they would have been part of the wealth you'd received while levelling up, and part of what you can buy. (At full scroll prices, that is.) As a player, you do not get to make up favorable background circumstances that let you get things cheaper than normal, unless your DM allows you to do so. "Spells" are not an item for sale in the SRD or in any other book. Scrolls are. So if you have additional spells in your spellbook, you pay the full scroll price for them. While that's only 25 gold for the average level 1 scroll, it is 3,825gp for the average level 9 spell.

[Nohwl]

Firstly, it make the assumption spells are a subset of "symbols on a page" ... and I don't agree that is the case





Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

...



if spells are not symbols on a page, what are they, and why doesn't secret page work?

[Dark_Scary]

For scrolls, there is magic present in the writing itself - it isn't merely the information conveyed by the symbols that is important in casting the spell. The fact that the scroll is expended when you transcribe the spell it contains implies that there is actual magic bound within them.

Even if the secret page duplicated the exact same information, it still would not necessarily be enough to prepare the spell - the required magic would not be bound to the spell.

Yes, and that is why Secret Page copies of scrolls do not act as scrolls. However, completely non-magical words on a page (which is what spells in a spellbook are) do not have any inherent magic, and therefore, an secret page copy of such information continues to operate exactly like the non magic writing it was copied from.


The fact that Comprehend Languages is necessary to read the original text also implies that the spell does a lot to obfuscate what is actually written.

Yes, a spell designed to obfuscate the original writing does in fact obscure that original writing. It does this by placing a perfect and completely unobfuscated writing on top of it.


I think I would generally rule that the symbols depicted are:

Not sufficient in and of themselves to cast the spell, Not exactly the same as the text of the spell as you would use it, nor are they sufficient to allow spells to be borrowed.

But yet, they are exactly the same as the text of the spell, and because of both that and the totally non magical nature of the writing, they are sufficient to borrow the spell.

They are not sufficient to cast the spell unless you impart your own magical energy, IE being a Wizard and preparing it in one of your slots.


as equipment costs would. Because if the character had been played to that level, he would not necessarily have paid off the costs of obtaining his spells.

Yes, and if a fighter used potions of Enlarge Person at level 1 he would have less wealth at level 10. But that's okay, because as I previously explained. If you follow the guidelines for distributing wealth, you receive a deal more than if you take WBL for that level.

This is because WBL has included a tax for consumable items in it, which for a Wizard, includes the gold consumed in building his spellbook.


I fail to see how I miss the point. You cannot assume that the game will be played by Rules as Written where there appears to be a difference between that and the intent behind those rules, especially when the rules as written provide a benefit that is unintended, and regardless of whether or not the benefit can be obtained by other means. If you want to use Secret Page to get round scribing costs, use it as the prerequisite to your Blessed Book.

The point that you are missing is that the intent behind the rules is to not penalize Wizard's WBL based on spells in his spellbook. That this can be accomplished RAW is a bonus.

If the RAW did not allow for this, I would encourage others to houserule in favor of it, because this outcome is the intent of the rules as well, in addition to being the best way to play these factors. You would know that if you read the following sentences that you left off your quote of me.


Firstly, it make the assumption spells are a subset of "symbols on a page" ... and I don't agree that is the case

And you are wrong.


Secondly, you can't make that generalization that way; That's equivalent to saying: A is a subset of C, and B is also a subset of C; since f(x) is true where x in A then it must be true that f(y) is true where y in B. The second statement does not follow from the first.

Actually, I am saying that f(c) is true, and using f(a) as and example. It is not strictly a proof. That is why it is called an analogy. But it does not cease being a valid analogy just because it is one.


These are contradictory statements; please make up your mind.

No they are not.

I am arguing that it is RAW. And that completely irrespective of whether it is RAW, it should be treated that way for completely different reasons.


As for the latter statment, I disagree with all 3 of your assertions.

You can disagree, that doesn't change the fact that they are true.

[Fhaolan]

if spells are not symbols on a page, what are they, and why doesn't secret page work?

I think, although I could be wrong, is that argument is that the scribed spell is somehow (magic!) *more* than just symbols on a page. That the act of scribing imparts some additional 'something' into the scribed spell that allows a mage to use it to prepare spells.

Basically, if I understand the argument, Secret Page is like an old photocopier. While it can copy a page well enough for it to 'readable', it's resolution is just poor enough that it's missing vital bits to make a spell workable. Either because it doesn't touch some dimension to the writing, or it doesn't copy the energy, just the symbols.

[lesser_minion]

stuff about consumables allowances

I hate to point this out, but spells aren't consumables.


totally non magical nature of the writing

If the writing is entirely non-magical, please explain why the only ways to write a spell into a spellbook are:

To use special magical inks and so on To use a magic item expressly designed for the purpose of holding spells

Please also explain what happens to the magic bound into a scroll when you erase the scroll by transcribing it. What is that, Digital Rights Management?

That sounds so non-magical to me.

You also still haven't explained all of these self-evident goals which are served best by ignoring spell costs at character creation, at levels where those costs matter.


Comments on the intent of the designers

Erm... here is the point where RAI breaks down. There is no point in the book where it can be clearly inferred that the designers wanted to avoid penalising wizards for the cost of their spells, aside from the one point where they point out that gold piece costs are not effective balancing factors. Which seems more likely to infer that they don't actually think wizards are penalised by making them pay to scribe their spells.

At low levels, the cost of spells is prohibitive, and can limit wizards pretty heavily. At high levels, it pales into insignificance. That actually ties very nicely with the descriptions of low and high level play that the DMG provides.

The text leads me to believe that paying for spells - including at character creation - is far closer to the intent of the designers than your 'self-evident' conclusion.

[Jayabalard]

And you are wrong.Ah yes, the famous "Nuh uh" debating strategy;

You're the one making the claim that writing in a spell book is the same as the writing in any other book, so you should really be able to back it up a little better than that; I think there's already sufficient evidence to the contrary in this thread, so there's no point in repeating it. You have not done more than just assert that this is true, which is really insufficient to be used as part of "prov[ing] [my] statement wrong".

(Edit: Twilight Jack has a nice example that shows how simply copying the symbols themselves is insufficient)


Actually, I am saying that f(c) is true, and using f(a) as and example. It is not strictly a proof. That is why it is called an analogy. But it does not cease being a valid analogy just because it is one.If it's not strictly a proof, then you should probably not make statements like "I have proved your statement wrong"

you gave an example of how f(a) is true, and then asserted that this shows that f(b) is true. Your conclusion does not logically follow from the previous statements.

If you want to use this sort of proof you have to prove that for all x in C, f(x) is true and that B is a subset of C. Just asserting that they are true is insufficient.


No they are not.You said
"I am not arguing based on Raw" and "I am arguing that something is RAW." ... these look like contradictory statements to me.


You can disagree, that doesn't change the fact that they are true.
Its not raw, it's your interpretation of something that isn't explicitly spelled out; multiple people are arguing that with you, so you really should try a better defense than "nuh uh"

The intent of the game is clearly that wizards have to pay for copying spells into their book; if you have evidence to the contrary, I suggest you present it.

The third statement is purely a matter of opinion on a strictly qualitative question, so by definition I really can't be wrong.

[Nohwl]

I think, although I could be wrong, is that argument is that the scribed spell is somehow (magic!) *more* than just symbols on a page. That the act of scribing imparts some additional 'something' into the scribed spell that allows a mage to use it to prepare spells.

Basically, if I understand the argument, Secret Page is like an old photocopier. While it can copy a page well enough for it to 'readable', it's resolution is just poor enough that it's missing vital bits to make a spell workable. Either because it doesn't touch some dimension to the writing, or it doesn't copy the energy, just the symbols.

i disagree with it being more magic, but it's not important.

if you are correct, you can take that secret page copy and scribe it into your blessed book. theres still no real cost involved. i use the trick to get spells for archivists instead of actually looking for them.

[Twilight Jack]

I have a hypothetical situation: I am a wizard. I decide to scribe a spell into my spellbook. I don't feel like paying 100 gp for special inks and materials and whatnot, so I use a nice sharp #2 pencil. I do all the work perfectly, transcribing each and every detail of the necessary ritual work of preparing this spell, without error.

Tomorrow, I attempt to prepare the spell from my spellbook. What happens?

It would therefore follow that the special inks and materials are necessary to capture the arcane energies in order to actually cast this spell. By that rationale, the appearance of a spell is not the same thing as the spell itself.

So based upon RAW and a bit of simple intuition, using secret page can make a spell appear to be another spell, but cannot invest that apparent spell with any real power.

At best, I might allow a secret page to transmute the special inks and materials from one page of spellbook into a functional version of another spell, since the inks and materials are already present on the page and secret page is a transmutation. Even that's a bit dicey, and relies on a judgement call from the DM that the special materials for scribing one spell are functionally identical to those needed for any other.

But if I allowed it, that would effectively halve the cost of adding spells to the spellbook, but couldn't ever eliminate it entirely.

[Fhaolan]

i disagree with it being more magic, but it's not important.

if you are correct, you can take that secret page copy and scribe it into your blessed book. theres still no real cost involved. i use the trick to get spells for archivists instead of actually looking for them.

If the secret page copy didn't introduce errors that you just manually copied... I think.

The reason I'm so abivalent about this, is because I dislike the secret page spell as written in 3.x. It is the way it's written, however, so in a RAW discussion I'm kinda stuck with it.

[Dark_Scary]

I have a hypothetical situation: I am a wizard. I decide to scribe a spell into my spellbook. I don't feel like paying 100 gp for special inks and materials and whatnot, so I use a nice sharp #2 pencil. I do all the work perfectly, transcribing each and every detail of the necessary ritual work of preparing this spell, without error.

Tomorrow, I attempt to prepare the spell from my spellbook. What happens?

You would find that your #2 pencil smudges. Unlike magic inks or permanent illusions.

[Twilight Jack]

You would find that your #2 pencil smudges. Unlike magic inks or permanent illusions.

Secret page is a transmutation, which is the only reason I allowed that it might be able to give you a 2 for 1 deal on your spells, if your DM wants to be really generous.

My point is that secret page, like a #2 pencil, can impart only the appearance of a spell on a given page. It cannot change normal inks into the magical ones necessary for spellcasting.

[lesser_minion]

You would find that your #2 pencil smudges. Unlike magic inks or permanent illusions.

And assuming that it doesn't. It's a custom magic item that renders perfect images of whatever the user wanted to copy.

It would not get around the requirement to scribe spells into a spellbook properly.

You have also missed the point that at best a secret page can give you a two-for-one deal on the inks (as the only time it says you can create the image of a spell is when you transmute a spell).

[Dark_Scary]

If it does in fact give you perfect reproductions that don't smudge, it would in fact allow you to prepare spells.

[Lamech]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamech
It costs 6125gp to make a blessed book. I have a hard time seeing why their is such a large argument about 6.13gp per spell level. Thats 56gp for a ninth level spell. Thats so minor its not even funny. Especially when compared to fabricate. I say either allow it or ban it as cheese; I suspect coming up with rule based justifications will lead to a bad precident.

Also why would you targeted dispel a spellbook? Why not scorching ray it? Or shatter it? Works even if the mage fed you BS about secret page. Or is hidden in a extradimensional space (The ray). If a spellbook can be targeted the mage did something horribly wrong.

Note that scrolls, libraries and so on cost money.

The cost is not intended as a balancing factor, and the only reason to factor it into the allowance a character receives at character creation is because the assumption is that WBL is roughly the value of treasure a character would have obtained if played to that level.

Alternatively, (1e Experience for a given level) = 1.9 x (3e experience for a given level.) Yes, the source of the spells costs extra money, but seceret page doesn't change that and neither does a blessed book. So the argument is over 6.125gp per spell level. Which is nothing. Also I would use secret page as my back up (if allowed), but a blessed book would always be used as my main one because of my ablity to trap it.



As for captured spellbooks, those are factored into WBL, they would have been part of the wealth you'd received while levelling up, and part of what you can buy. (At full scroll prices, that is.) As a player, you do not get to make up favorable background circumstances that let you get things cheaper than normal, unless your DM allows you to do so. "Spells" are not an item for sale in the SRD or in any other book. Scrolls are. So if you have additional spells in your spellbook, you pay the full scroll price for them. While that's only 25 gold for the average level 1 scroll, it is 3,825gp for the average level 9 spell. In the PHB pg 179 it says normally 50gp per spell level. So... umm.... yeah they kind of are for sale. Now it also says that wizards guard their high level spells and might charge more, but still the full price of a scroll makes no sense. In fact nothing more than half the price of the scroll makes sense if they are "guarding" it; thats all they get from the scroll and letting a wizard copy it doesn't cost them xp "personal power".

And captured spell books being part of WBL? Really? Because a wizard can write them into his blessed book for 6.125gp per page. And then sell it. Unless you don't allow selling of spellbooks in which case... counting it as WBL makes no sense, and unless the party engages in metagaming they won't take it out of the wizards share. (Which means your randomly buffing wizards.)

[RS14]

if spells are not symbols on a page, what are they, and why doesn't secret page work?

The rules don't spell out all the rules for written spells. What they do, however, is to place restrictions on a wizard's ability to prepare spells even from deciphered magical writing. "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook." There are seriously "Arcane Magical Writings" that are totally meaningful spells that cannot be prepared. So no, I don't think it is unreasonable to impose extra requirements on arcane magical writings to be prepared as a spell.

Using Secret Page in this manner produces something much like the page of a captured spellbook. You can't prepare it, because it's not really in your spellbook in any meaningful way--you might as well ask the Barbarian to copy the symbols from your friend's spellbook to yours (which is arguably legal by RAW, and with no cost). And really, do we want a world where you literally can't write certain words down because of spooky magical unexplained forces? In most reasonable worlds, you can trace the text if you need to, and it costs nothing but ink. No, the reason the wizard pays through the nose to do so is because his spells are written in some special, costly, arbitrary way which allows him to prepare them.

As to the aforementioned scenario, no, of course you can't prepare a spell from the Barbarian's copy of a spell into your spellbook. You can't prepare from a secret page either.

[Twilight Jack]

If it does in fact give you perfect reproductions that don't smudge, it would in fact allow you to prepare spells.

Only if it rendered perfect reproductions prepared with special magical inks. Which cost 100 gp per page. :smallcool:

[Dark_Scary]

Only if it rendered perfect reproductions prepared with special magical inks. Which cost 100 gp per page. :smallcool:

Actually, the specific example was a magic item that produces exact copies of writings. So if that item had maybe a thousand uses, and cost [insert price of a Boccob's Blessed Book] you would have no reason to complain.

Course, the fact remains that symbols are still symbols, so it doesn't matter if they are tattooed on your skin, carved into stone, or written on a page, as long as they can for whatever reason create exact copies of the symbols to the appropriate precision, they are spells which can be prepared.


There are seriously "Arcane Magical Writings" that are totally meaningful spells that cannot be prepared. So no, I don't think it is unreasonable to impose extra requirements on arcane magical writings to be prepared as a spell.

Using Secret Page in this manner produces something much like the page of a captured spellbook. You can't prepare it, because it's not really in your spellbook in any meaningful way

Actually, you can totally prepare spells from Captured Spellbooks and from Scrolls. So in fact, there are no Arcane Magical Writings which are meaningful spells and cannot be prepared.

All Arcane Magical Writings that are meaningful spells are preparable. And if a secret page copy is like a captured copy, then you can prepare it.

[Twilight Jack]

Actually, the specific example was a magic item that produces exact copies of writings. So if that item had maybe a thousand uses, and cost [insert price of a Boccob's Blessed Book] you would have no reason to complain.

Actually, what that specific example teaches us (along with a dozen other examples in the SRD alone) is that an expenditure of time, personal power (in the form of a Craft feat and XP), and money for rare and special materials (much like our special inks) combined with a spell can accomplish something that the spell alone cannot. The blessed book is a special case that allows a caster to create an item that bypasses the normal limitations of secret page through 6,250 gp worth of materials, 2 weeks of crafting, and 500 XP. Namely, it allows for free scribing of spells that can actually be prepared and cast.


Course, the fact remains that symbols are still symbols, so it doesn't matter if they are tattooed on your skin, carved into stone, or written on a page, as long as they can for whatever reason create exact copies of the symbols to the appropriate precision, they are spells which can be prepared.

You're right; symbols are just symbols. A map or a poem or a blueprint imparts the same information whether it is printed in #2 pencil or magical inks costing 100 gp per page. So when is a symbol not just a symbol? When it carries within it the inherent power to alter the fabric of reality. Symbols like that must be able to impart more than just information. Symbols like that carry a power all their own. And that means they are subject to certain rules in how they must be transcribed and at what cost. It's the difference between a sign that reads, "Trespassers will be shot," and a sign that shoots trespassers. :smallwink:


Actually, you can totally prepare spells from Captured Spellbooks and from Scrolls. So in fact, there are no Arcane Magical Writings which are meaningful spells and cannot be prepared.

And all captured spellbooks and scrolls are still transcribed according to the same arcane rules which govern your own spellbook. If they were not created using the proper materials and process, then they are not Arcane Magical Writings at all. So your argument is tautological.


All Arcane Magical Writings that are meaningful spells are preparable. And if a secret page copy is like a captured copy, then you can prepare it.

But what we're saying is that a secret page copy is not like a captured copy. Someone used magical inks and materials to inscribe that captured copy. The secret page copy just looks the same.

[RS14]

Actually, you can totally prepare spells from Captured Spellbooks and from Scrolls. So in fact, there are no Arcane Magical Writings which are meaningful spells and cannot be prepared.

I'm almost certain this is false. Read the passage I quoted on borrowed spellbooks. Even if the wizard has prepared a spell from a borrowed spellbook before, "She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before."

Preparing spells from scrolls is simply not allowed. One may prepare to cast a spell from a scroll, but that is fundamentally different from preparing a spell, as you must be able to see and read the scroll in question.

At most, one can make an argument that a captured spellbook is your spellbook and therefor you may treat it in your own in all ways. But I feel that to be a fundamentally silly argument. The Universe itself should not function differently when your friend gives you his spellbook than it does when he loans you his spellbook.

[Nohwl]

The rules don't spell out all the rules for written spells. What they do, however, is to place restrictions on a wizard's ability to prepare spells even from deciphered magical writing. "A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook." There are seriously "Arcane Magical Writings" that are totally meaningful spells that cannot be prepared. So no, I don't think it is unreasonable to impose extra requirements on arcane magical writings to be prepared as a spell.

Using Secret Page in this manner produces something much like the page of a captured spellbook. You can't prepare it, because it's not really in your spellbook in any meaningful way--you might as well ask the Barbarian to copy the symbols from your friend's spellbook to yours (which is arguably legal by RAW, and with no cost). And really, do we want a world where you literally can't write certain words down because of spooky magical unexplained forces? In most reasonable worlds, you can trace the text if you need to, and it costs nothing but ink. No, the reason the wizard pays through the nose to do so is because his spells are written in some special, costly, arbitrary way which allows him to prepare them.

As to the aforementioned scenario, no, of course you can't prepare a spell from the Barbarian's copy of a spell into your spellbook. You can't prepare from a secret page either.

i'm not arguing that you can prepare it directly from secret page. anyway, i will say you are right and that you cannot prepare the spell from the secret page version.

now, the trick with secret page doesn't prepare it from the secret page copy. you take that copy of it and then scribe it into your book, just like you would copy a spell from a scroll or another wizard. dark_scary already went through the process.



1) Decipher the spell: (Spellcraft DC 20 + the spell’s level or Read Magic)
2) Spend a day studying the spell: (Spellcraft DC 15 + spell’s level)
3) Now he "understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook"


the only difference is that instead of getting it from a scroll or another wizards spellbook, you have it from secret page.

as you stated, it is just like a page of a captured spellbook. you are treating it as one and putting it into your book, just like you would do if you got a captured spellbook. the copy you are preparing it from is the one you just put in spellbook, not the secret page version.

i would copy it into a blessed book, to avoid paying the costs of adding a new spell into a book. (and it would make getting the spell completely free.)

what secret page allows you to do is not find that wizard with the one spell you are looking for. it saves you the trouble of locating the high level wizard with the rare spell you need. you are not casting from the secret page spell, you are only using it as the copy needed to scribe it into your book. as i said earlier(or meant to say), i use it with archivists because it avoids having to find that rare npc or get that rare scroll.

[Dark_Scary]

You're right; symbols are just symbols. A map or a poem or a blueprint imparts the same information whether it is printed in #2 pencil or magical inks costing 100 gp per page. So when is a symbol not just a symbol? When it carries within it the inherent power to alter the fabric of reality. Symbols like that must be able to impart more than just information. Symbols like that carry a power all their own. And that means they are subject to certain rules in how they must be transcribed and at what cost. It's the difference between a sign that reads, "Trespassers will be shot," and a sign that shoots trespassers.

Except there is no magic in the symbols of you spellbook.

You are confusing the sign that gives instructions on how to shoot people (The spell in a spellbook).

With the sign that shoots trespassers (The scroll).

The information in the spellbook can never alter reality on it's own without someone else providing the force and following instructions.

[Worira]

So why does it need 100gp/page worth of magical ink? Why wouldn't mundane ink work just as well? It's blatantly obvious that the particular inks are needed, not just the symbols.

[The_JJ]

Skimmed through the thread so I'm probably repeating an argument but... thing about WBL is that it's not an actual calculation of how much a thing costs, its a calculation of the value of the items that a charactor has, and should have at a certain level in order to maintain parity.

WBL shouldn't care how cheaply you can get things, but how much worth you have on you at the moment.

Take, for instance, the dreaded dragon, which is slain. The party slays it, takes the hoard, and equips themselves from it. Now, they paid nothing for the contents of the hoard. But of course you'd count it against their WBL.

Same rules ought to apply to spells, and WBL doesn't care about no fancy tricks or special feats that let you get things cheaply, just as it doesn't care whether a charactor lifted their items from a dragon (free) or bought it in a shop (not free). WBL still charges them the 'shop price' or rather the 'book price.'

Of course, any good DM messes around with these things to make it work in the group, but that varies from party to party, so we won't let things like 'the real world' or 'actual applications' intrude on our debate. :smalltongue:

Also... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html

[Lunawarrior0]

i'm not arguing that you can prepare it directly from secret page. anyway, i will say you are right and that you cannot prepare the spell from the secret page version.

now, the trick with secret page doesn't prepare it from the secret page copy. you take that copy of it and then scribe it into your book, just like you would copy a spell from a scroll or another wizard. dark_scary already went through the process.



the only difference is that instead of getting it from a scroll or another wizards spellbook, you have it from secret page.

as you stated, it is just like a page of a captured spellbook. you are treating it as one and putting it into your book, just like you would do if you got a captured spellbook. the copy you are preparing it from is the one you just put in spellbook, not the secret page version.

i would copy it into a blessed book, to avoid paying the costs of adding a new spell into a book. (and it would make getting the spell completely free.)

what secret page allows you to do is not find that wizard with the one spell you are looking for. it saves you the trouble of locating the high level wizard with the rare spell you need. you are not casting from the secret page spell, you are only using it as the copy needed to scribe it into your book. as i said earlier(or meant to say), i use it with archivists because it avoids having to find that rare npc or get that rare scroll.

Umm, I can see a problem with this, you seem to think that when you cast secret page, the information that will be printed will just pop out of the air and be put onto the page. While it might not be stated, I would say that you need to know what you are going to put on the page beyond "this spell." You should have to know every symbol that will go on the page, at least well enough to write it yourself.
So if you can write the thing yourself, and are simply using the secret page as a backup that costs you nothing, but you can't prepare anything from, I don't think there is anyone here arguing this (I might have missed it, but I doubt it). The difference is that you will have to either spend the cost of inks, or get one of them fancy magic spell books. But you will still have to have access to the original spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except there is no magic in the symbols of you spellbook.

You are confusing the sign that gives instructions on how to shoot people (The spell in a spellbook).

With the sign that shoots trespassers (The scroll).

The information in the spellbook can never alter reality on it's own without someone else providing the force and following instructions.

Neither can a scroll, which is use-activated.

There IS magic in the symbols of a spellbook, otherwise you wouldn't need special materials to scribe spells IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Really, there isn't any point in this going on any further. You are absolutely convinced you are right. Fine. Just make sure your GM agrees with you, or you may find yourself faced with this discussion with your GM. And, by Rule 0, GM always wins, even if you are right (which I personally disagree with)

[Talya]

Yes, the source of the spells costs extra money, but seceret page doesn't change that and neither does a blessed book. So the argument is over 6.125gp per spell level. Which is nothing. Also I would use secret page as my back up (if allowed), but a blessed book would always be used as my main one because of my ablity to trap it.


In the PHB pg 179 it says normally 50gp per spell level. So... umm.... yeah they kind of are for sale. Now it also says that wizards guard their high level spells and might charge more, but still the full price of a scroll makes no sense. In fact nothing more than half the price of the scroll makes sense if they are "guarding" it; thats all they get from the scroll and letting a wizard copy it doesn't cost them xp "personal power".

No, they kind of are not. What part of that page makes you in any way think that by RAW you can buy any spell you want for 50gp per spell level? It doesn't say anything of the sort. What it gives is a very rough guideline for a social encounter whereby you may get access to a spellbook from a friendly wizard type...but you the player have no control over what spells this rare friendly wizard type might have. This is not a guide for equipping a character with WBL, it's a guide for a specific type of "encounter" a DM might give you...at his whim, not the player's.



And captured spell books being part of WBL? Really? Because a wizard can write them into his blessed book for 6.125gp per page. And then sell it. Unless you don't allow selling of spellbooks in which case... counting it as WBL makes no sense, and unless the party engages in metagaming they won't take it out of the wizards share. (Which means your randomly buffing wizards.)

Every item you've ever gotten from an encounter, purchased from town, or sold enroute to reaching the level your character is starting at is included in their WBL, in one generic lump of gold available at character creation. If you'd like certain spells you buy (at scroll prices) to be officially "something you got from a spellbook," that's fine. They're still balanced out at scroll prices at character creation. When you are building your character, that's the RAW cost of a spell.

[huttj509]

i'm not arguing that you can prepare it directly from secret page. anyway, i will say you are right and that you cannot prepare the spell from the secret page version.

now, the trick with secret page doesn't prepare it from the secret page copy. you take that copy of it and then scribe it into your book, just like you would copy a spell from a scroll or another wizard. dark_scary already went through the process.



the only difference is that instead of getting it from a scroll or another wizards spellbook, you have it from secret page.

as you stated, it is just like a page of a captured spellbook. you are treating it as one and putting it into your book, just like you would do if you got a captured spellbook. the copy you are preparing it from is the one you just put in spellbook, not the secret page version.

i would copy it into a blessed book, to avoid paying the costs of adding a new spell into a book. (and it would make getting the spell completely free.)

what secret page allows you to do is not find that wizard with the one spell you are looking for. it saves you the trouble of locating the high level wizard with the rare spell you need. you are not casting from the secret page spell, you are only using it as the copy needed to scribe it into your book. as i said earlier(or meant to say), i use it with archivists because it avoids having to find that rare npc or get that rare scroll.


Could I have secret page display a paragraph of text in perfect grammatical goblinoid, if I do not know goblinoid?

My interpretation is no. This would mean that you cannot use Secret Page to produce a copy of a spell you do not know, and have no source to copy it from. I think you could have secret page look like "what's on this page here," but you'd still need to understand it, or go through the rigamarole to prepare spells from a spellbook not your own. It seems that the process of scribing the spell would be important, not just that it's in a spellbook that you have labelled "mine".

Actually, given that, there's no problem. Best Secret Page can do is allow you to save space, storing twice as many pages in your spellbook as it could normally hold. Make a travelling spellbook compact. You have a larger library at home, a travelling spellbook that's full, and then you use secret page on each page to copy a second spellbook worth of spells that you already know, over the first, condensing 2 books worth of spells into one, and saving on the cost of pages and ink. You're not getting the spell access for free, you already paid it, you're just getting the material cost for free by using the materials you already scribed.

I think that you could use Secret Page to scribe a new spell over one you already have. However, it says that you can make a spell look like a different spell. You can reduce the material costs by 1/2 overall with Secret Page, but you cannot make a new useful spell on a blank or mundane page. There's something about the ink that makes it so expensive, and its presence is necessary for the spell to properly settle, but secret page could make use of what is currently there. Since it's transmutation, that implies that it takes what is there and reshapes it into the new form, not just making an illusion or something out of nothing. Pigmentation for mundane writing is easy, but it seems there's more to spellbook materials.

[PnP Fan]

I think one thing that some folks in the thread are misunderstanding is the difference between Cost and Value.

I believe what the OP was trying to point out is that, beyond the spells granted as a class feature, any spells in the wizard's spellbook have an intrinsic Value. That Value ought to be measured in GP, and compared to the WBL score, which is a basic measure of the power a character has beyond his class features.

Cost, on the other hand, is what you've actually paid for the equipment, and is completely independent of Value. The Cost might be listed as:
1. buying a scroll.
2. making nice-nice with another wizard (a class of people known for their hunger for power and paranoia . ... ) to 'trade spells'.
3. killing enemy wizards and learning from their spellbooks.
4. etc. . .

Note the Cost is no different than what any other class had to pay for obtaining power (gear/weapons/armor) according to their WBL score (substituting appropriate class gear as necessary). Yet, we still count the Value of the swag against the WBL, not what the actual Cost was. Why should spells (beyond those given by class features) be any different?

Still leaves me with what that cost should be. I think what my group usually does is charge for a scroll of the same spell, and just assume that you pass any necessary Spellcraft checks (I seem to recall that copying a spell requires a check. . . ). And we just don't sweat spellbook costs. But that's houserules with a group that doesn't pay too much attention to WBL.

My recollection is that guidance in the DMG is to consider the cost listed in the DMG for a particular magic item when assembling treasure for monsters (not the crafting Cost, for example). So my recommendation would be to use scroll costs to compare to WBL rules.

[huttj509]

I think one thing that some folks in the thread are misunderstanding is the difference between Cost and Value.

I believe what the OP was trying to point out is that, beyond the spells granted as a class feature, any spells in the wizard's spellbook have an intrinsic Value. That Value ought to be measured in GP, and compared to the WBL score, which is a basic measure of the power a character has beyond his class features.

Cost, on the other hand, is what you've actually paid for the equipment, and is completely independent of Value. The Cost might be listed as:
1. buying a scroll.
2. making nice-nice with another wizard (a class of people known for their hunger for power and paranoia . ... ) to 'trade spells'.
3. killing enemy wizards and learning from their spellbooks.
4. etc. . .

Note the Cost is no different than what any other class had to pay for obtaining power (gear/weapons/armor) according to their WBL score (substituting appropriate class gear as necessary). Yet, we still count the Value of the swag against the WBL, not what the actual Cost was. Why should spells (beyond those given by class features) be any different?

Still leaves me with what that cost should be. I think what my group usually does is charge for a scroll of the same spell, and just assume that you pass any necessary Spellcraft checks (I seem to recall that copying a spell requires a check. . . ). And we just don't sweat spellbook costs. But that's houserules with a group that doesn't pay too much attention to WBL.

And cost even has both Access cost, and scribing cost. Access cost is highly variable. Scribing cost is either 100GP per page, 1GP per page (Boccob's book), or free if reusing a page (by my interpretation above, could also be free anyway by some interpretations).

If you find an enemy spellbook, and sell it, how do you determine how much it is worth? Do this for your own spellbooks, and voila.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Okay.
First off, I'm ignoring Secret Page shenaninanagins. It's RAW(IMHO), but it's not RAI(IMHO) and it fails the 'no sane DM' test(IMHO). And it's unnecessary. It's just not worth the debate around it.

Second, WBL is not used during campaigns, just for creating characters above 1st level. My arguments are based around this.

Third, a Wizard gets 2 FREE spells/level before Collegiate Wizard. These do not count in any way against WBL, as they are a CLASS FEATURE. You don't charge Warlocks for their Brilliant Energy Glaive, Soulknives for their +5 Bastard Sword of Overcompensation, or Artificers for their Craft Reserve, so don't charge Wizards for something specifically gained by levels.

Now, a level 2+ Wizard gets WBL to do whatever he wants with. The PHB specifically calls out buying a spell from another Wizard as taking 50 GP. You can also eat a scroll, buy a spellbook to copy from then sell it, or trade spells. Trading is RP-based, so it's out for generating a character(though in balance discussions, use in play is a good topic, which is why I hate duels but love comparing God-Wizards to Tripmonkeys). Copying/selling is too much like accounting homework for most people, so it's out. Scrolls and buying spells directly are the 2 remaining methods. Since both are called out as possible and both are equally dependant on the Magic Mart, it should default to either whichever is most beneficial(since it was presumably the Wizard's decision which to do) or whichever is easier in the setting. In most settings, anything that limited the availibility of Wizards to copy from would also limit the number of scrolls, but an increase in the number of Wizards would not necessarily increase the number of scrolls. There are some exceptions to this, but since it is both cheaper and at the least no more difficult to copy than it is to buy a scroll and burn that, the default assumption should be that the Wizard copied for 50 GP/level plus the cost per page(if any, BBB and Geometer are both often used in these discussions by level 8).

And since people have already showed how affordable that is, I'm out.

Edit:Or not. If we're going by value, you should be able to sell the ability to copy out of your spellbook(or, IIRC, the book itself) at a rate of 25 GP/spell level(plus 50% of the cost of the book and scribing cost if selling the whole book). Which is, interestingly enough, the cost I came up with. The value of the book has a correlation with scroll costs, but no causative relationship.

[Lamech]

No, they kind of are not. What part of that page makes you in any way think that by RAW you can buy any spell you want for 50gp per spell level? It doesn't say anything of the sort. What it gives is a very rough guideline for a social encounter whereby you may get access to a spellbook from a friendly wizard type...but you the player have no control over what spells this rare friendly wizard type might have. This is not a guide for equipping a character with WBL, it's a guide for a specific type of "encounter" a DM might give you...at his whim, not the player's.Umm... "most cases" thats over 50% of the time. Also in a world where scrolls can be bought not allowing copying for a fee MAKES NO SENSE. In fact, once a wizard is found (These guys are in every town) a diplomacy check makes everything better, and those take roughly six seconds soo... (well if your good at it.)

Oh and every item can usally be found in a city if your under the GP limit. How do you price spellbooks again? Do you not allow the selling of spellbooks.


Every item you've ever gotten from an encounter, purchased from town, or sold enroute to reaching the level your character is starting at is included in their WBL, in one generic lump of gold available at character creation. If you'd like certain spells you buy (at scroll prices) to be officially "something you got from a spellbook," that's fine. They're still balanced out at scroll prices at character creation. When you are building your character, that's the RAW cost of a spell.At character creation, yeah. But still unless the DM never has you fight wizards that wouldn't apply for a character that was played through the levels.

[PnP Fan]

Okay.
Second, WBL is not used during campaigns, just for creating characters above 1st level. My arguments are based around this.


Judging by the way some posters write, I suspect there are folks on the boards here that try to shoot for matching wealth by level. I do, from time to time.

But, whether WBL is or isn't used during the campaign, character wealth (or effective character wealth) is still a measure of non-class-feature power level, and thus a potentially useful metric for trying to keep party members balanced against each other.

[Twilight Jack]

Except there is no magic in the symbols of you spellbook.

Except there is. Otherwise mundane ink would suffice to scribe a spell into your spellbook.


You are confusing the sign that gives instructions on how to shoot people (The spell in a spellbook).

With the sign that shoots trespassers (The scroll).

I concede that my analogy contains a flaw, which you've successfully illustrated. It has no effect on the core of my argument.

Since the analogy is not the argument, allow me to amend the analogy.

1) The sign that gives instructions on how to shoot people, but provides neither gun nor bullets (the spell as rendered by a casting of secret page).

2) The sign which provides both instructions and a fully loaded handgun taped to the back of it (the spell in a properly transcribed spellbook).

3) The sign which provides a guy with a gun to shoot for you (the scroll).

4) The sign that shoots trespassers (a symbol of death).


The information in the spellbook can never alter reality on it's own without someone else providing the force and following instructions.

Just as a gun cannot pull its own trigger. But neither may a man pulling a trigger ensure that he is indeed holding a gun.

A "bullet" that is not built from the proper materials will not fire. To bring the analogy back around, the proper materials cost 100 gp per level of the spell.

[lesser_minion]

Judging by the way some posters write, I suspect there are folks on the boards here that try to shoot for matching wealth by level. I do, from time to time.

But, whether WBL is or isn't used during the campaign, character wealth (or effective character wealth) is still a measure of non-class-feature power level, and thus a potentially useful metric for trying to keep party members balanced against each other.

It's meant to be an average of the amount of treasure you would have obtained if played up to a given level, assuming that the DM rolls treasure. In reality, treasure rolls are random enough that the expected result (WBL, or nearby) isn't particularly likely to happen.

And then you have DMs who don't roll treasure.

[grautry]

Except there is. Otherwise mundane ink would suffice to scribe a spell into your spellbook.

Precisely.

By default you write spells into your own spellbook for a certain cost, right?

And BBB waives that cost.

Ask yourself - why? Why does writing the exact same information into one book make it into a functional spell(BBB) whereas writing a functional spell into another book necessitates the expenditure of cash?

The only sane answer is that the BBB is already imbued with whatever magics are necessary to scribe functional spells while scribing them into mundane books requires for you to imbue the pages with that magic.

[Jayabalard]

Umm... "most cases" thats over 50% of the time.The wording I see in the SRD is "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp."

This implies that, if you actually run into a wizard who is willing to let you copy spells, 50% or more of the time he will charge you 50gp X spell level for the privilege; it doesn't say anything about how often they will be willing, or how likely you are to run across someone with any particular spell.

[Talya]

The wording I see in the SRD is "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp."

This implies that, if you actually run into a wizard who is willing to let you copy spells, 50% or more of the time he will charge you 50gp X spell level for the privilege; it doesn't say anything about how often they will be willing, or how likely you are to run across someone with any particular spell.

Exactly. And once again, we're talking about WBL, which only really applies to character creation.

[Nohwl]

Umm, I can see a problem with this, you seem to think that when you cast secret page, the information that will be printed will just pop out of the air and be put onto the page.

your dm could interpret it to mean only spells you know, that is the only problem with using it. of course, it is not mentioned in the spell that it can only be turned into spells you know well enough to copy or scribe.


Could I have secret page display a paragraph of text in perfect grammatical goblinoid, if I do not know goblinoid?

My interpretation is no. This would mean that you cannot use Secret Page to produce a copy of a spell you do not know, and have no source to copy it from. I think you could have secret page look like "what's on this page here," but you'd still need to understand it, or go through the rigamarole to prepare spells from a spellbook not your own. It seems that the process of scribing the spell would be important, not just that it's in a spellbook that you have labelled "mine".


if i went to a translator and told them i wanted this paragraph translated into spanish, do i need to know what spanish looks like? no. i can't check to see if it is correct, but i can have it translated. secret page is like the ultimate translator. you can take any set of symbols and have it transformed into any other set.

as i said earlier, you can interpret secret page to mean only spells you know, others can interpret it to mean secret page can turn things into whatever they want.

i feel like this is getting a bit off topic, so if either of you (or anyone else) want to continue this, pm me.

[Jayabalard]

Exactly. And once again, we're talking about WBL, which only really applies to character creation.There's a not insignificant amount of people who use it as a guideline during play as well... as well as some who see it as some sort of entitlement (they deserve X amount of treasure during play based on the WBL guidelines).

[Talya]

There's a not insignificant amount of people who use it as a guideline during play as well... as well as some who see it as some sort of entitlement (they deserve X amount of treasure during play based on the WBL guidelines).

That's fine, they're free to do so, but that's not some rule that the game says should be followed. WBL represents a very loose average of what you would get if the DM randomly generated all treasure, minus the resources one is expected to expend (potions and scrolls and such) during the course of play, and as such is only really useful for creating a character higher than level 1 from scratch. Actual gameplay will vary widely from that average unless the DM carefully designs every treasure the players receive to account for it (and then you'll be less than WBL, since WBL expects you to have blown some resources on expendable items while reaching your current level.)

[Dagren]

The only sane answer is that the BBB is already imbued with whatever magics are necessary to scribe functional spells while scribing them into mundane books requires for you to imbue the pages with that magic.Yup. And what magic is it that BBB is imbued with? Oh look, it's secret page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook). Let's face it, this is obviously an area for the DM's call, and arguing about it won't change that.

[Twilight Jack]

Yup. And what magic is it that BBB is imbued with? Oh look, it's secret page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#blessedBook). Let's face it, this is obviously an area for the DM's call, and arguing about it won't change that.

Yup, secret page. Which only tells us that a casting of secret page combined with the investment of 6,250 gp, 500 XP, 13 days, and a feat can do something that a casting of secret page cannot do on its own.

In much the same way, a casting of tongues combined with 7,450 gp, 596 XP, 15 days, and a feat can create an item that gives nondwarves 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects, none of which is even remotely possible with a casting of tongues.

[Lycar]

I believe what the OP was trying to point out is that, beyond the spells granted as a class feature, any spells in the wizard's spellbook have an intrinsic Value. That Value ought to be measured in GP, and compared to the WBL score, which is a basic measure of the power a character has beyond his class features.

This.

Each and every spell a magic user has is one unique way he has to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up.

For every other class except Wizard, there is a direct corelation between the net worth of his/her gear and their expected power level.

Apparently the MiC even added ways for spontaneous casters to spend wealth to gain more power via more spells added to their arsenal.

The question is thus: How to quantify this?

The most intuitive way would be to simply assign a monetary value acoording to the price of a scroll of the same spell. Fast and easy. And it gives a guideline for newly created characters just how large their library should be.
Because buying extra spells means not buying something else.

So, maybe it is time for a little poll.


How do you handle spell selections for a newly created wizard character?

A I don't apply any gp value to his spell selection. I check the list to see if I don't want some spells in my game, but basically I trust my players not to go overboard. Or I'm just lazy.

B For sake of simplicity, extra spells cost 150 gp per spell level. Quick & dirty, gets the job done, doesn't penalize a Wizard much but he doesn't get extra power for free.

C Knowledge is power. For spells, well, let us say spell power grows exponentially with level. The very least one can do to keep things in check a bit is to make them pay the price of a scroll. Power has it's price and Wizards are not exempt from this rule.

D As 'C' but let them pay the cost for scribing too. After all, a scroll is single use, a spellbook is for life...


There, just vote your own way of doing things and we get a nice overview of playstyles, m'kay? :smallsmile:

Lycar

[Sstoopidtallkid]

*snipped*B, though I object to calling it quick and dirty. It's the most accurate value of the spells he has, and is closest to the likely cost if he had actually gained those spells via levels(scrolls would be used and more expensive, but so would capturing and selling spellbooks and spell sharing, both of which reduce the cost). Also, if the PC spent the money on a BBB, I only consider it worth 50 GP/level. The book exists to save PCs money, why not let them?

Where it gets really complicated is when they sell their original spellbook after buying a BBB and copying everything to that. I've never bothered, but the calculations there get scary.

[Twilight Jack]

Where it gets really complicated is when they sell their original spellbook after buying a BBB and copying everything to that. I've never bothered, but the calculations there get scary.

If they've making their own blessed book, the sale of an old spell book will give them an 80% rebate on the materials cost once they've scribed all their old spells into the shiny new magicky one.

[Lycar]

The book exists to save PCs money, why not let them?

Crafting also saves money, yet the crafted items are still at full value when you try to figure out the power boost they give the character. Crafting and questing makes it posible to aquire items for a lesser price. Their worth remains unchanged.

Allow me to explain:

1) A scroll of Sleep (or Colour Spray or Grease): 25 gp
2) A spellbook and a vial of magic ink: 115 gp
3) Ending an entire encounter with 1 spell slot: Priceless!

And there you have it. What is the worth for a Wizard to have the Sleep (or Colour Spray or Grease) spell in his collection?

Lycar

[Nohwl]

you can argue the same thing with a fighter. having a +5 sword of ___ bane when you are facing an encounter full of ___ makes the sword worth way more.

how useful it is for your character in the long run is not measured by the price of the object. you may never fight a ___ and be able to use the +5 sword of ___ bane effectively, or you may use it effectively in every encounter. this does not change the price listed for it.

similarly, the worth of sleep for a wizard does not matter. how often the spell is used does not matter, it is only the price of the scroll,the price of the spellbook and the price of the ink that matters.

[Dark_Scary]

Lycar, you are still ignoring the actual value of the items in question.

A Wizard already has four free spells of every level, minimum, with feats and class features giving more.

All future spells are not worth that much.

Wizard's never buy a scroll of sleep, because they get it for free with their 9 free level 1 spells.

150gp per spell level is the value, because you do not gain exponential new power from having a +1 Goblin Bane, +1 Human Bane, +1 Dragon Bane, ect swords.

You already have spells of every level, there is no reason for it to be scroll costs at all ever.

There is a listed price in the PHB that makes actual sense.

[Twilight Jack]

Lycar, you are still ignoring the actual value of the items in question.

A Wizard already has four free spells of every level, minimum, with feats and class features giving more.

All future spells are not worth that much.

Wizard's never buy a scroll of sleep, because they get it for free with their 9 free level 1 spells.

150gp per spell level is the value, because you do not gain exponential new power from having a +1 Goblin Bane, +1 Human Bane, +1 Dragon Bane, ect swords.

You already have spells of every level, there is no reason for it to be scroll costs at all ever.

There is a listed price in the PHB that makes actual sense.

I take it you're assuming the Collegiate Wizard feat at 1st level. . .

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Crafting also saves money, yet the crafted items are still at full value when you try to figure out the power boost they give the character. Crafting and questing makes it posible to aquire items for a lesser price. Their worth remains unchanged.But if you're starting at a higher level, then it is reasonable to allow one character to lose XP and GP to start with some things crafted(assuming proper feats, etc). Do you take the final cost of the item out of their WBL, or only the GP they used to craft it?

Edit @above: No, a Wizard gains 2 spells/level each level-up. That means he has 4 2nd level spells, 4 3rd level spells, 4 4th level spells, etc. What we have here is a failure of the system that uses 'level' to mean multiple things.

[Zeful]

I take it you're assuming the Collegiate Wizard feat at 1st level. . .

There are two levels between all spell levels as a wizard, and you get two spells a level. If you spend all of them for higher level spells you get (assuming an 18 for 1st level Int):
All 0-level spells
9 1st level spells (3 starting, 4 from Int, 2 from level 2)
4 2nd level spells (from levels 3 and 4)
4 3rd level spells (from levels 5 and 6)
4 4th level spells (from levels 7 and 8)
4 5th level spells (from levels 9 and 10)
4 6th level spells (from levels 11 and 12)
4 7th level spells (from levels 13 and 14)
4 8th level spells (from levels 15 and 16)
and 8 9th level spells (from levels 17, 18, 19, and 20).

[Twilight Jack]

Okay, so he was talking spell levels rather than class levels. Got it.


:belkar: How much crap do we go through on a daily basis because no one at TSR looked up "level" in a thesaurus?

[Dark_Scary]

What everyone else said.

Also, if I ever rewrite D&D, first thing I'm doing is making them spell circles.

Things that give Wizards more free spells:

Collegiate Wizard, Illusionist Sub level, Elf Generalist.

[Twilight Jack]

What everyone else said.

Also, if I ever rewrite D&D, first thing I'm doing is making them spell circles.

Character levels, spell circles. I like it. :smallsmile:

[Dagren]

Okay, so he was talking spell levels rather than class levels. Got it.Well, he did say "spells of every level" rather than "spells at every level". One word makes all the difference.

[Twilight Jack]

Well, he did say "spells of every level" rather than "spells at every level". One word makes all the difference.

And I just missed it. My bad.

[PnP Fan]

It's meant to be an average of the amount of treasure you would have obtained if played up to a given level, assuming that the DM rolls treasure. In reality, treasure rolls are random enough that the expected result (WBL, or nearby) isn't particularly likely to happen.

And then you have DMs who don't roll treasure.

I agree with you. However, there is instruction (don't ask page numbers, I'm away from my books) for the GM on how to assemble treasure for levels of a dungeon (or for a single room, per a dragon's horde). It basically shows you how to achieve WBL via 'random' rolls (i.e. you roll randomly for *what* is there, but the total value of treasure available in an adventure/dungeon is driven by party size and level).

Obviously, it's only a suggestion, and you can do what you like 'in game', but there are tools and relationships in the DMG that relate treasure available to the power of the characters.

Just for the record, I don't roll treasure (mundane stuff, maybe), but not magical stuff. I try to use reason and story to determine treasure. For example, no amount of random rolls will ever convince me to put a +5 holy avenger in a level 1 dungeon/adventure, unless it's there for a reason. For one thing, an item that powerful would make it fairly easy for a character to survive a level 1 dungeon.

[arkol]

Just for the record, I don't roll treasure (mundane stuff, maybe), but not magical stuff. I try to use reason and story to determine treasure. For example, no amount of random rolls will ever convince me to put a +5 holy avenger in a level 1 dungeon/adventure, unless it's there for a reason. For one thing, an item that powerful would make it fairly easy for a character to survive a level 1 dungeon.

If you look at treasure tables you'll see that stuff like that is completly impossible.

[Lycar]

Right then.

This leaves the question: If we do not consider spells above and beyond what any wizard gets as a fact of levelling worth tracking vs. WBL, then what is considered 'adequate' for a freshly created lv X Wizard to have in your game? :smallconfused:

Lycar

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Right then.

This leaves the question: If we do not consider spells above and beyond what any wizard gets as a fact of levelling worth tracking vs. WBL, then what is considered 'adequate' for a freshly created lv X Wizard to have in your game? :smallconfused:So, if the spells are free, how many do they get? I'd say toss an extra 2 per level-up. That's essentially them swaping spells with another Wizards once per spell level. You could do more, but as a player, that's all I'd really need. Heck, even without Collegiate Wizard, you can make a good Wiz with just the spells from level-up(you get more spells and of better levels than a Sorc that way).

[mostlyharmful]

Right then.

This leaves the question: If we do not consider spells above and beyond what any wizard gets as a fact of levelling worth tracking vs. WBL, then what is considered 'adequate' for a freshly created lv X Wizard to have in your game? :smallconfused:

Lycar

To be honest, not much since I don't think it's all that worth it to pay attention to. The Wizard gets the vast majority of what he needs free and will just be topping up with a few more, say 1 or 2 extra per level unless he makes it his mission to know EVERY spell which doesn't really improve him since he'll only prepare the important role-filling well written ones which is a much smaller pool. And really if you want a protective self buff I'm fine with you having a choice on a day to day basis between a range of them, your controlling resource is the slots you're filling not what you're filling them with.

Say, the free ones and half to the same again others.