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Raenir Salazar
2009-06-01, 06:14 PM
I mean like an optimized sorceror will have usually 20+ Charisma by mid level, how should their charisma be treated? Phsyical beauty? Compelling and almost hypnotic personality? Should they be made to be the natural diplomats and party leaders? Why is it it seems like Wisdom would have been the better stat?

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-01, 06:15 PM
I mean like an optimized sorceror will have usually 20+ Charisma by mid level, how should their charisma be treated? Phsyical beauty? Compelling and almost hypnotic personality? Should they be made to be the natural diplomats and party leaders? Why is it it seems like Wisdom would have been the better stat?

Sorcerors control magic by force of personality so... I'd say compelling personality.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 06:15 PM
Charisma represents, among other things, a person's force of personality. The Sorcerer is not wise (in fact, most dump WIS), but he is persuasive. So persuasive that reality is tempted to bend over and take it.

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-01, 06:18 PM
I personally don't think charisma is necessarily related to physical appearance, though some disagree:


I've always interpreted a female character's CHA modifier to be directly proportional to her cup size. :smallbiggrin: So sue me.

yilduz
2009-06-01, 06:20 PM
Charisma represents, among other things, a person's force of personality. The Sorcerer is not wise (in fact, most dump WIS), but he is persuasive. So persuasive that reality is tempted to bend over and take it.

I never really thought about it that way before. I've never been much of a fan of sorcerers, mainly because wizards are so much better, but a sorcerer may be a lot of fun to play.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 06:24 PM
I never really thought about it that way before. I've never been much of a fan of sorcerers, mainly because wizards are so much better, but a sorcerer may be a lot of fun to play.
That's nothing. In 4E, a Sorcerer can cast with his muscles.

Cedrass
2009-06-01, 06:25 PM
I never really thought about it that way before. I've never been much of a fan of sorcerers, mainly because wizards are so much better, but a sorcerer may be a lot of fun to play.

They are! And still pretty much stronger than other classes :smallwink:

DamnedIrishman
2009-06-01, 06:25 PM
The Sorcerer is not wise (in fact, most dump WIS), but he is persuasive. So persuasive that reality is tempted to bend over and take it.

Of course! Where would be the fun in altering reality to your will if you had the good sense to think about the outcome of your actions!

Geddoe
2009-06-01, 06:26 PM
Charisma is coolness, as we understand it today. I don't care how badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass) you think your character is. If he doesn't have a decent Charisma, he's not really a badass. The only exception is O'Chuul, even though I think he may have at least 10 or more charisma anyway.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-01, 06:26 PM
The charisma should be their draconic blood kicking in. They should have a certain lull to their voice and a subtle hint of majestic power to their appearance that make people say "Hey, that guy's got it going on. I should listen to him."

Ernir
2009-06-01, 06:31 PM
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting

The bolded part is what describes Sorcerers for me. A Sorcerer is likely to get his opinion across every time, becomes captain of the debate team, and gets the school hottie.
And then charms the Wizard into doing his homework.

OverdrivePrime
2009-06-01, 06:43 PM
I mean like an optimized sorceror will have usually 20+ Charisma by mid level, how should their charisma be treated? Phsyical beauty? Compelling and almost hypnotic personality? Should they be made to be the natural diplomats and party leaders? Why is it it seems like Wisdom would have been the better stat?

One of these days, I'm going to make a sorcerer that shakes his rump to tempt the cosmos into giving him what he wants. :smallbiggrin:

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 06:51 PM
One of these days, I'm going to make a sorcerer that shakes his rump to tempt the cosmos into giving him what he wants. :smallbiggrin:
And the period at the start of the day where he refreshes his spells is...:smalleek:

expirement10K14
2009-06-01, 06:51 PM
One of these days, I'm going to make a sorcerer that shakes his rump to tempt the cosmos into giving him what he wants. :smallbiggrin:

But, if you dump strength will you have the power to shake that much raw energy?:smalltongue:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-06-01, 06:53 PM
I think it should be anything, depending on what's needed. If you have a handsome, beautiful, or sexy character, make Charisma equal looks, but if you have a persuasive person, make it persuasive. If its both, then dang, that person's lucky.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 07:01 PM
The traditional argument, I believe, points at the Tiefling and the Half-Fiend.The latter receives a boost to Charisma: he's large and in charge, and he knows it. The Tiefling, however, has a much smaller fiendish heritage, and gets a penalty to Charisma, despite being a lot more attractive by human standards than a Half-Fiend. The Tiefling is insecure about his features, and out of place in society, and the Charisma hit reflects that.

OverdrivePrime
2009-06-01, 07:05 PM
And the period at the start of the day where he refreshes his spells is...:smalleek:
90% Horrifying, 10% Techno dance mixes.


Which could be the same thing, I suppose.

TheThan
2009-06-01, 07:05 PM
Charisma represents, among other things, a person's force of personality. The Sorcerer is not wise (in fact, most dump WIS), but he is persuasive. So persuasive that reality is tempted to bend over and take it.

Yeah, too bad they don’t get diplomacy, gather information and handle animal so they could have the skills to back up their “compelling personality”.

*sigh*, guess its just one of those things that don't make sense (from a gaming standpoint), in dnd.

[edit]
By the standard rules, physical beauty is not considered by anything in the game, so I think that it fits.

Just look at some of the greatest world leaders in history, none of them are supermodels.

Xondoure
2009-06-01, 07:09 PM
If you look at LoTR, Gandalf, despite being a wizard, has by far the highest Charisma score in terms of persuasiveness. Hell, he even broke an enchantment just by talking to someone. In that context, charisma is the ability to persuade. In others, it may be their dazzling beauty that allows them to charm others.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 07:11 PM
Yeah, too bad they don’t get diplomacy, gather information and handle animal so they could have the skills to back up their “compelling personality”.

*sigh*, guess its just one of those things that don't make sense (from a gaming standpoint), in dnd.
It's not an ability to DO anything. It's just being so confident and sure their spells will work that the universe doesn't dare let them down.

Eldariel
2009-06-01, 07:33 PM
Yeah, too bad they don’t get diplomacy, gather information and handle animal so they could have the skills to back up their “compelling personality”.

*sigh*, guess its just one of those things that don't make sense (from a gaming standpoint), in dnd.

I don't know, I'd imagine the point here is that Sorcerers aren't diplomat extraordinaires simply because it doesn't fit how they're portrayed. They have the commanding presence that does lend itself well to making deals, lying to people or making someone piss their pants, but that's not at all what they are interested in.

A sorcerer cares about manipulating reality and just forcing magic happen with the pure power of their mind. Had he gotten the face skillset, he'd overlap with the Bard very much; I'd imagine the purpose of making it cross-class is specifically to draw the line between the two classes.


That said, there are means to add those skills to Sorcerer list for the Diplomat-types (Draconic Heritage et al). So yeah.

Doc Roc
2009-06-01, 08:19 PM
I never really thought about it that way before. I've never been much of a fan of sorcerers, mainly because wizards are so much better, but a sorcerer may be a lot of fun to play.

Huh. So... Yeah. Ever heard of arcane spellsurge or the ever-lovely arcane fusion? They're really about even, but I tend to use sorcerers myself.

TheThan
2009-06-01, 08:25 PM
See here’s where we’re thinking differently.

You’re thinking of diplomacy as a learned ability, like say reading. I’m thinking of it as a more natural ability.

The difference is that Diplomacy as a learned ability is good for statesmen and other sorts of mediators.

But diplomacy as a natural ability is far more interesting, it’s a characters’ ability to talk his way into a guarded room, to Bull poop someone out of information or spin a yarn to a bunch of youngsters.

You’d think someone with the charisma to make the laws of physics to sit down and shut up would also be able to talk someone down, or intimidate someone into giving them information, or control a wild animal.

Flickerdart
2009-06-01, 09:00 PM
You’d think someone with the charisma to make the laws of physics to sit down and shut up would also be able to talk someone down, or intimidate someone into giving them information, or control a wild animal.
1. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.
2. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.
3. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.

The Sorcerer has a varied and expansive set of abilities for dealing with all of those situations.

ZeroNumerous
2009-06-01, 09:00 PM
[edit]
By the standard rules, physical beauty is not considered by anything in the game, so I think that it fits.

Except, you know.. Charisma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha).


But diplomacy as a natural ability is far more interesting, it’s a characters’ ability to talk his way into a guarded room, to Bull poop someone out of information or spin a yarn to a bunch of youngsters.

One problem: The ability to convincingly lie is a learned behavior. It's not something you are born with, it's something you earn. The ability to act like you know what you're talking about is natural. That's Diplomacy ranks vs Charisma modifier.

Eldariel
2009-06-01, 09:06 PM
See here’s where we’re thinking differently.

You’re thinking of diplomacy as a learned ability, like say reading. I’m thinking of it as a more natural ability.

The difference is that Diplomacy as a learned ability is good for statesmen and other sorts of mediators.

But diplomacy as a natural ability is far more interesting, it’s a characters’ ability to talk his way into a guarded room, to Bull poop someone out of information or spin a yarn to a bunch of youngsters.

You’d think someone with the charisma to make the laws of physics to sit down and shut up would also be able to talk someone down, or intimidate someone into giving them information, or control a wild animal.

But that's just what the base Charisma-score in the roll represents! That's the basic skill you've got, but every master orator gets better with practice. That's what the ranks represent. Talking is always learned (literally; we can't talk unless we are taught to). The ways to use language are always things that require practice.

They may be easier for some than for others and certainly the force of personality goes a long way in that regard, but training still makes them better. Sorcerers have a great basic competence for someone who's never put any time into actually studying the art of influencing others and weaving words, but a trained orator even with much less impressive presence is still going to get better results.

ChaosDefender24
2009-06-01, 09:27 PM
Charisma represents, among other things, a person's force of personality. The Sorcerer is not wise (in fact, most dump WIS), but he is persuasive. So persuasive that reality is tempted to bend over and take it.

A Wis 8 Cha 18+ sorcerer is basically Osaka from Azumanga Daioh...

i guess that's how it works

ShadowFighter15
2009-06-01, 09:34 PM
You know; reading this thread made me realise that sorcerers (and any other-charisma-based spellcasters) are really altering reality through sheer hot-bloodedness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotBlooded). One wonders what would've happened if Kamina (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TengenToppaGurrenLagann) had been a sorcerer. :smalleek:

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-01, 09:45 PM
Charisma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma) is natural persuasiveness.

Charisma would make the most sense as the casting stat for clerics, paladins, and similar classes, as it can easily be seen as divine favor or the blessing of a god. Wisdom, which represents rationality and keen perception, makes little sense as a key stat for a servant of a higher power.

For the record, I think that Int makes most sense for psionics (brainpower!), Wis for nature-based things like druids and shamans (in touch with the environment!), and Dex for arcane (intricate hand gestures!). As it is, there's often not much rhyme nor reason what stat does what in 3E. (I'm guessing that 4E continues this trend.)

TheThan
2009-06-01, 09:46 PM
Notice that physical beauty is listed last. There are literally no mechanics to represent someone’s beauty. You take a beauty test to do what? Pose? No, instead you take a charisma test to interact with someone. (Many people jus RP it at this point.) Last I checked interaction with another involves one major thing… speaking, not standing there looking pretty.

You can very easily take out that last bit about beauty and the idea still gets across.


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.


Yeah, talking is learned, it’s not something we sit down and purposefully learn, (like for example learning the rules to an RPG). Its something we naturally pick up on in and start talking on their own. Why because as children we hear others speaking and soon we learn to do it ourselves. Horses bay, dogs bark, frogs croak, we talk. Its our primary way of communicating with others.



As you can see diplomacy is much more than just mediating between two parties. It’s also characters’ ability to make someone else like them. That falls into the neighborhood of what I’ve been talking about. Sure you can make it just a basic charisma check. But by raw, it’s a diplomacy check. That’s where the diplomacer cheese builds comes from. Your ability to turn even hostile enemies into potential allies. So why doesn’t the sorcerer who’s up there with the bard for charisma, have the ability to influence people with his personality? I believe its because the designers didn’t want to step on the bard’s toes. If diplomacy was something that could only be done by people who have trained in it, it would be trained skill only; instead it can be untrained. Why because even the biggest country bumkin can influence people.
.

1. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.
2. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.
3. Dominate Monster or Meteor Swarm.

The Sorcerer has a varied and expansive set of abilities for dealing with all of those situations.

I kinda like this guys’ version of diplomacy ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKwg6W05MU)

chiasaur11
2009-06-01, 10:44 PM
Charisma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charisma) is natural persuasiveness.

Charisma would make the most sense as the casting stat for clerics, paladins, and similar classes, as it can easily be seen as divine favor or the blessing of a god. Wisdom, which represents rationality and keen perception, makes little sense as a key stat for a servant of a higher power.


I'd argue Chesterton's Father Brown is an excellent example of a clerical type who uses wisdom as a primary stat. Actually, it might be neat if the main stat of clerics depended on deity. IE gods of battle grant spells based on strength etc.

Talya
2009-06-01, 11:33 PM
Charisma is coolness, as we understand it today. I don't care how badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Badass) you think your character is. If he doesn't have a decent Charisma, he's not really a badass. The only exception is O'Chuul, even though I think he may have at least 10 or more charisma anyway.

O-chul is a paladin, and a good one. His charisma will be better than average.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-01, 11:47 PM
Consider, if you will, the fictional character Miles Vorkosigan from the Vor series written by Lois McMaster Bujold.

He's a cripple, with a distinct hunchback, born in a place which has a very Spartan view on physical deformities (i.e. kill them at birth).

He's also got a silver tongue, and not only kissed the Blarney Stone, but bloody well swallowed it!

This character has an insane Charisma score, despite looking hideous, because he simply exudes personality.

To give another, RL example, we look at a military leader from history.

Before I go any further, remind people about the rules discussing RL politics. Discussing someone as a historical figure is one thing, discussing politics resulting from that person... not so much.

This person is Adolf Hitler. Say what you will about his agenda, or damn near anything else about him... despite the fact that he had a slight figure and really bad hairdo with a really funny looking mustache... he was a man who exuded personality. The man swindled an entire nation into following him. THAT, my friends, is Charisma.

Lamech
2009-06-02, 12:10 AM
I still think that it would be far funnier for sorcerer's to cast spells by the power of their prettiness. Hence, thats how I'm going to interpert it.

Wizard: I studied arcane arts for decades.
Cleric: I channel the raw power of my god.
Druid: I wield the power of life itself.
Sorcerer: I'm pretty.
Bard: ... And I thought playing music was a lame way to get spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-02, 12:20 AM
I still think that it would be far funnier for sorcerer's to cast spells by the power of their prettiness. Hence, thats how I'm going to interpert it.

Wizard: I studied arcane arts for decades.
Cleric: I channel the raw power of my god.
Druid: I wield the power of life itself.
Sorcerer: I'm pretty.
Bard: ... And I thought playing music was a lame way to get spells.Anything that makes D&D more like Twilight deserves DEATH BY FIRE! FIRE THAT WILL DESTROY HIS GOOD LOOKS!

Yeah, I prefer the interpretation that Sorcerers are literally fueled by how awesome they are.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-06-02, 12:23 AM
O-chul is a paladin, and a good one. His charisma will be better than average.
O-Chul disagrees (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) :smalltongue:

Also: At one point, all women got +2 CHA during character creation

Take that as you will :smallbiggrin:

Dixieboy
2009-06-02, 01:10 AM
That's nothing. In 4E, a Sorcerer can cast with his muscles.
They also can in 3.5, though here you can also use your 1337 break dancing skillz to do it (Dex) or your sheer amount of brainz to cast magic (Int, which makes them gimped wizards)

if you feel like it you could also use your astounding health (Con)

well

You could even use Wis.

Provided off course that you are a halfbreed. :smalleek:

ShadowFighter15
2009-06-02, 06:05 AM
Yeah, I prefer the interpretation that Sorcerers are literally fueled by how awesome they are.

AKA; The GGG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gao_Gai_Gar)-School of Spellcasting.

Incidentally; since it's based of charisma, would that make most magic items you'd use UMD for fuelled by sheer awesome?

Talya
2009-06-02, 07:20 AM
It's best if you look at the three mental stats as direct analogs of the three physical stats. For example:

Wisdom = Mental and emotional constitution. It's your ability to withstand attacks and hardships upon your psyche. For spellcasters, it requires mental endurance and concentration to channel the divine through one's very soul.

Intelligence = Mental Dexterity--how easily and adeptly you wrap your mind around new concepts and ideas, how quick you are to grasp things. For spellcasters, figuring out how the forces of magic work and learning how to manipulate them requires a quick and agile mind.

Charisma = Mental Strength. This is the amount of force you can bring upon the world around you, but instead of using your muscles, it is your mind-- whether it's convincing someone to be your friend, figuring out how to force that wand to work for you when you can't cast spells, or for spellcasters, convincing reality to sit down and shut up with the force of your personality alone.

Hunter Noventa
2009-06-02, 09:24 AM
My group is one (likely among many) who got tired of charisma = attractiveness. Granted it doesn't come up very often, but we basically made a house rule that your 'Comeliness' score is the average of your charisma and your best physical stat. In that it's not just about how you look, but how you carry yourself. Someone with a high Strength then is muscular, a high Dex means slim, while a high Con would make a rather voluptuous woman, but I have no idea what it mean for a male character.

It's not perfect, but it does help to decouple the two ideas of Mental Strength and Physical Attractiveness.


Oh yes, and I think Sorcerers should definitely be fueled by how awesome they are. Or crazy. Or Crazy Aweomse. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyAwesome)

Talya
2009-06-02, 09:34 AM
Someone with a high Strength then is muscular, a high Dex means slim, while a high Con would make a rather voluptuous woman, but I have no idea what it mean for a male character.

It's not perfect, but it does help to decouple the two ideas of Mental Strength and Physical Attractiveness.

Speaking as a woman, I have a hard time associating physical Constitution with cup size. Generally, aerobic fitness will lower your overall curvy-ness. A measure like you're using for strength might apply better to men than women, where muscle tone is generally part of how physically attractive you are, but other than that...what if you're playing a woman who runs marathons? She's could have 18 con and have no curves at all. Or the voluptuous chick who is a capable acrobat? Hell, most guys find a woman with too much muscle tone is LESS attractive.

Hunter Noventa
2009-06-02, 09:47 AM
Speaking as a woman, I have a hard time associating physical Constitution with cup size. Generally, aerobic fitness will lower your overall curvy-ness. A measure like you're using for strength might apply better to men than women, where muscle tone is generally part of how physically attractive you are, but other than that...what if you're playing a woman who runs marathons? She's could have 18 con and have no curves at all. Or the voluptuous chick who is a capable acrobat? Hell, most guys find a woman with too much muscle tone is LESS attractive.

Well I didn't say it was perfect, nor did I mean to insult anyone. I think my group was really just trying to find a way to represent three major attractive body types without having to totally mess around with the rules more than we already do.

A better way would be to decouple it into it's own ability score and apply it to appropriate skill checks and such. That's probably the only good thing to come out of the BoEF really.

And it's a fantasy world. Women with high strength look more like Red Sonja than modern day creepy body builders. :smalltongue:

Tingel
2009-06-02, 09:57 AM
As you can see diplomacy is much more than just mediating between two parties. It’s also characters’ ability to make someone else like them. That falls into the neighborhood of what I’ve been talking about. Sure you can make it just a basic charisma check. But by raw, it’s a diplomacy check. That’s where the diplomacer cheese builds comes from. Your ability to turn even hostile enemies into potential allies. So why doesn’t the sorcerer who’s up there with the bard for charisma, have the ability to influence people with his personality? I believe its because the designers didn’t want to step on the bard’s toes. If diplomacy was something that could only be done by people who have trained in it, it would be trained skill only; instead it can be untrained. Why because even the biggest country bumkin can influence people.
Diplomacy is not raw persuasiveness. Diplomacy is manners, rhetorics, social etiquette and various other social graces - maybe the design team considered a sorcerer to be too alien, pompous, self-centered, arrogant, occult or whatever to really master the diplomatic parquet. They can still influence other people (due to their raw power of personality = charisma), but they may lack the patience, insight and empathy necessary for actual diplomacy.

A bard combines both - power of personality and a unique way with words and the ability to please crowds and captivate minds. That's why they have diplomay as a class skill and can typically outshine a sorcerer in this area.


Despite what you suggest, charisma and diplomacy are far from being the same thing, just like dexterity and sneaking or intelligence and knowledge of history are not the same thing. Raw charisma can also manifest itself as the power to fool and intimidate - not every charismatic character is likable and eloquent.

Optimystik
2009-06-02, 10:06 AM
High charisma can also be roleplayed as very exotic or unearthly beauty. For example, a woman with half her head shaved and tattooed.


Wizard: I studied arcane arts for decades.
Cleric: I channel the raw power of my god.
Druid: I wield the power of life itself.
Sorcerer: I'm pretty.
Bard: Me too! *both flash perfect white teeth*

Fixed.

Talya
2009-06-02, 10:11 AM
A better way would be to decouple it into it's own ability score and apply it to appropriate skill checks and such. That's probably the only good thing to come out of the BoEF really.


The problem with this is most people are on point buys, and Charisma already suffers as a dump stat for most people, no matter how many different things you dump into it.

The reason they have it partially represent beauty (although its entirely possible for a hideous creature to have a high charisma) is that beauty and charisma have many of the same effects. I think they way they did it...to loosely tie the two together but not in any ironclad way, works, even if it feels sloppy. Basically, your character has whatever appearance you decide to give them. But for that appearance to be useful for (or detrimental to) anything you're doing, you need a charisma score to match it.

For example, if you decide to be beautiful, great, but your charisma is only 10. You know the type...the fashion model who is technically gorgeous, but no teenage boys are breaking out the handlotion while staring at the magazine because she just doesn't stand out, despite her beauty. On the other hand, you might decide to be a tomboy girl-next-door with average looks, but your charisma is 18. Suddenly you have some magnetism that just isn't explicable by appearance alone...no modelling agency is ever going to hire you, but you have a lineup of guys knocking at your door that you have to turn down.

kjones
2009-06-02, 10:24 AM
Hackmaster had rules that tied Comeliness to Charisma. I am AFB but will look them up later.

Tingel
2009-06-02, 10:31 AM
Hackmaster had rules that tied Comeliness to Charisma.
"Has", not "had".


I am AFB but will look them up later.
It's rather simple. Comeliness is a separate stat, but during character creation it is modified based on starting charisma. That's all. But HackMaster has a skill system completely different from D&D 3+, so their comeliness stat cannot be ported. In modern D&D, every skill is only based on a single stat, despite the fact that in real life most skills depend on multiple "stats" (e.g. you need strength, constitution and dexterity for climbing). In HackMaster your "Art of Seduction" or "Taunting, Major" roll can depend on both Charisma and Comeliness, but in the D&D setup you would always have to choose between one of the two - which would make the other one redundant.
The only way to sensibly integrate a comeliness stat in D&D would be to allow skill checks that are multi-ability dependent, simply because CHA and COM have basically the same effect on social skills, despite not being the same thing at all.

Hunter Noventa
2009-06-02, 10:56 AM
The problem with this is most people are on point buys, and Charisma already suffers as a dump stat for most people, no matter how many different things you dump into it.

The reason they have it partially represent beauty (although its entirely possible for a hideous creature to have a high charisma) is that beauty and charisma have many of the same effects. I think they way they did it...to loosely tie the two together but not in any ironclad way, works, even if it feels sloppy. Basically, your character has whatever appearance you decide to give them. But for that appearance to be useful for (or detrimental to) anything you're doing, you need a charisma score to match it.

For example, if you decide to be beautiful, great, but your charisma is only 10. You know the type...the fashion model who is technically gorgeous, but no teenage boys are breaking out the handlotion while staring at the magazine because she just doesn't stand out, despite her beauty. On the other hand, you might decide to be a tomboy girl-next-door with average looks, but your charisma is 18. Suddenly you have some magnetism that just isn't explicable by appearance alone...no modelling agency is ever going to hire you, but you have a lineup of guys knocking at your door that you have to turn down.

Yeah, the Comeliness as extra stat thing only works if you can tweak the point buy values or you're rolling for stats. And what you say does make a lot of sense. Hell these days half my group finds pictures off the internet or draws them themselves for their characters, which will almost always be attractive and have little or nothing to do with their looks.

I guess Charisma should really only be rendered as your mental strength, wherever you draw it from being up to the character. Someone who's confident in their looks and uses them to their advantage gets the same benefits as someone with a huge ego, or someone who's certain they will pierce the heavens or what have you.

There are other problems inherent in the system, but I don't feel the need to enumerate them, save that in a lot of campaigns, if your class isn't powered by charisma, it's 98% useless. I think that's where the real problem lies, but it's a discussion for another day.

Set
2009-06-02, 10:59 AM
Rather than invent another sub-stat for Attractiveness or Comlieness, I'd rather go the route of making it a Feat or Trait that someone can take, as is the case in Mutants & Masterminds or Pathfinder. Someone who is 'attractive' gets a +X to Bluff and Diplomacy rolls vs. someone who finds them attractive. (+4 for a Feat, +2 for a Trait, or whatever.)

That way, just as Alertness allows a low Wisdom character to be extra perceptive, without having a seperate 'Perception' score, the Attractive Feat/Trait would allow a lower Charisma character to still be able to 'get by on their looks' in some social situations (and the high Charisma character with Attractive to be even *more* socially dominant).

For Sorcerers, particularly those of Draconic lineage, the Charisma might be seen not just as a forceful personality, but a clear sense of personal conviction and confidence that stems from *knowing* that they are the descendent of the most powerful beings to ever walk the face of the planet. In the case of fiendish or celestial-blooded Sorcerers, the same sort of inner confidence, perhaps even accompanied by quirkiness such as 'inner voices' that urge them on (which may or may not be actual fiendish or angelic voices...), would make them seem like dynamic forceful personalities to everyone around them, 'chosen' or 'blessed' individuals with a special destiny that attracts (or cows) weaker personalities with their sheer presence.

A Fey-lineage Sorcerer might have a subtler compelling, even tantalizing or mysterious, aura. One who gains their lineage from Illithid experimentation could come off as cool, commanding and just a lot bit scary... Every now and then, he would be looking at someone head a-tilt, and his lower lip might subtly twitch, and the person who knows of his origin might wonder, 'Sweet Pelor! Is he thinking about eating my brain?'

Even the ones who loathe their heritage and draw no pride or conviction from it, might be required by their very circumstances to have an incredible sense of ego-independence, simply to survive the 'shame' of the fiendish blood in their Neutral Good veins, and choose instead a life of drawing upon that hellish taint to hurl as thunder and lightning against the very creatures of darkness.

This sort of dogged sense of self-worth might come across as confidence and inner strength (which would be more of a wisdom thing...) to those around them who do not share their determined and forceful aura.

ShadowFighter15
2009-06-02, 05:29 PM
I guess Charisma should really only be rendered as your mental strength, wherever you draw it from being up to the character. Someone who's confident in their looks and uses them to their advantage gets the same benefits as someone with a huge ego, or someone who's certain they will pierce the heavens or what have you.

This and this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6203081&postcount=39) of Talya's are probably the best way of summing up the mental stats.

Someone with a high wisdom won't be phased by mental attacks, someone with a high intelligence can outmanoeuvre the enemy (ala Light Yagami or Lelouch) while someone with a high charisma can push people into a certain way of thinking (I couldn't think of a better, overall phrase for that, unfortunately).

Fhaolan
2009-06-02, 05:43 PM
Notice that physical beauty is listed last. There are literally no mechanics to represent someone’s beauty. You take a beauty test to do what? Pose? No, instead you take a charisma test to interact with someone. (Many people jus RP it at this point.) Last I checked interaction with another involves one major thing… speaking, not standing there looking pretty.

[Ursula:] I'm not asking much. Just a token, really, a
trifle. What I want from you is . . . your voice.
[Ariel:] But without my voice, how can I -
[Ursula:] You'll have your looks! Your pretty face! And don't
underestimate the importance of body language! Ha!

:smallbiggrin:

Though that was meant as a joke, there is indeed a point buried in there, speaking is not the only way to interact with people. Body language and other such methods are equally valid ways to express high Charisma.

Flickerdart
2009-06-02, 06:19 PM
Though that was meant as a joke, there is indeed a point buried in there, speaking is not the only way to interact with people. Body language and other such methods are equally valid ways to express high Charisma.
Two words: Pelvic. Thrust. What somatic component did you expect Sorcerers to have?

ShadowFighter15
2009-06-02, 06:45 PM
Two words: Pelvic. Thrust. What somatic component did you expect Sorcerers to have?

That just gave me the image of Lord Flashheart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e644WFD1rgM) wearing sorcerer robes and firing magic missiles out of his crotch. :smalleek:

Shadowbane
2009-06-02, 07:27 PM
Yeah, too bad they don’t get diplomacy, gather information and handle animal so they could have the skills to back up their “compelling personality”.

*sigh*, guess its just one of those things that don't make sense (from a gaming standpoint), in dnd.

[edit]
By the standard rules, physical beauty is not considered by anything in the game, so I think that it fits.

Just look at some of the greatest world leaders in history, none of them are supermodels.

I actually houserule those skills to them, if a player asks. If not, meh. Charisma is pretty open to interpretation, I've noticed.

Dienekes
2009-06-02, 08:14 PM
That just gave me the image of Lord Flashheart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e644WFD1rgM) wearing sorcerer robes and firing magic missiles out of his crotch. :smalleek:

Most disturbing or most awesome mental image of all time. You be the judge.

Lord_Gareth
2009-06-02, 08:28 PM
I think my favorite way I've ever explained it is thusly:

Wizards are scientists; they study reality and see what action brings what reaction. Sorcerers grab reality in a one-handed choke and scream, "I AM YOUR MASTER!"

Random NPC
2009-06-02, 08:33 PM
That just gave me the image of Lord Flashheart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e644WFD1rgM) wearing sorcerer robes and firing magic missiles out of his crotch. :smalleek:

I had... something worse in mind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4JGn2XAH9g) :smalleek:

WARNING: Not Safe for Life. It's a japanese wrestler doing... what normally japanese eccentric actors do

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-03, 12:03 AM
It's best if you look at the three mental stats as direct analogs of the three physical stats. For example:

Wisdom = Mental and emotional constitution. It's your ability to withstand attacks and hardships upon your psyche. For spellcasters, it requires mental endurance and concentration to channel the divine through one's very soul.

Intelligence = Mental Dexterity--how easily and adeptly you wrap your mind around new concepts and ideas, how quick you are to grasp things. For spellcasters, figuring out how the forces of magic work and learning how to manipulate them requires a quick and agile mind.

Charisma = Mental Strength. This is the amount of force you can bring upon the world around you, but instead of using your muscles, it is your mind-- whether it's convincing someone to be your friend, figuring out how to force that wand to work for you when you can't cast spells, or for spellcasters, convincing reality to sit down and shut up with the force of your personality alone.

I would agree with you on Wisdom, but not on Intelligence or Charisma. In fact, I'd probably flip them backwards.

Wisdom is mental fortitude, the ability to resist mental effects, and the strength of conviction in your beliefs.

Intelligence is raw mental power, be it computing power or otherwise. This covers the capacity for learning and storing information. The ability to take a book, read it, comprehend what it said, and apply the principles therein to a given situation. Most of the Int based skills are bookish: Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Knowledge skills, Spellcraft... all these are trained skills which apply principles in similar situations and doesn't generally require much thinking 'outside the box'.

Charisma is closer to your mental dexterity, your wits. Look at all the skills that Charisma is based on: none of them have pre-defined answers to learn by rote memorization like all the Int skills, it's all off-the-cuff on-the-fly improvisation. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, UMD... answers vary widely depending on the situation, and someone who has greater mental flexibility is more likely to be able to thrive than those who have great intellect but otherwise a fairly straightforward thinker.

That's my opinion on the matter, anyways.

Talya
2009-06-03, 07:36 AM
Intelligence is raw mental power, be it computing power or otherwise. This covers the capacity for learning and storing information. The ability to take a book, read it, comprehend what it said, and apply the principles therein to a given situation. Most of the Int based skills are bookish: Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Knowledge skills, Spellcraft... all these are trained skills which apply principles in similar situations and doesn't generally require much thinking 'outside the box'.

Charisma is closer to your mental dexterity, your wits. Look at all the skills that Charisma is based on: none of them have pre-defined answers to learn by rote memorization like all the Int skills, it's all off-the-cuff on-the-fly improvisation. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, UMD... answers vary widely depending on the situation, and someone who has greater mental flexibility is more likely to be able to thrive than those who have great intellect but otherwise a fairly straightforward thinker.

That's my opinion on the matter, anyways.

And is completely wrong. :)

Intelligence is not mental power. It's mental adeptness, quickness (speed of action), IQ, wits, etc.

Charisma isn't wits at all. You can be an complete moron and have charisma in the stratosphere...charisma is brute force of personality. There's a reason "Force" is used in that phrase.

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-03, 03:14 PM
Intelligence is not mental power. It's mental adeptness, quickness (speed of action), IQ, wits, etc.
How are those not mental power? Are you taking "power" to mean something other than "ability"? If so, what?


You can be an complete moron and have charisma in the stratosphere...
Could you give a real-world example?


charisma is brute force of personality.
Meaning what? Assertiveness? That doesn't necessarily provoke a positive response.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-03, 06:51 PM
And is completely wrong. :)

Intelligence is not mental power. It's mental adeptness, quickness (speed of action), IQ, wits, etc.

Charisma isn't wits at all. You can be an complete moron and have charisma in the stratosphere...charisma is brute force of personality. There's a reason "Force" is used in that phrase.

Wow, way to be open-minded about it :smallsigh:

Well, you have your opinion on the matter, and I have mine. You really haven't given me any new information to sway me, and it is clear that you are not going to be persuaded by anything I might say, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Talya
2009-06-03, 07:17 PM
How are those not mental power? Are you taking "power" to mean something other than "ability"? If so, what?

Power. "Lifting capability." Brute force. Strength.

Let's compare a mental 'brute force' approach to actual intelligence. We'll look at chess players. Human Chess players have an ability to see possibilities for how the game will unfold and take the best approach, but they are still basically working from heuristic mental processes and strategies that rely on intelligence and thinking on the fly. They do not process the game like a computer chess program, but have real intelligence. It's a mental dexterity a computer cannot match.

Computers have no intelligence at all, but they can play chess through a 'mental' brute force approach to the game -- a computer simply checks every possible outcome of any move that it makes for the millions of possibilities that might exist and picks whichever one ends up with the best results. Now, computers have become so powerful that the best chess supercomputers can brute-force their way to a victory against the best human opponents, but they don't have any understanding of the art or tactics that they are using. It's simple brute force.

An idiot with an IQ of 70 and an eidetic memory might have a great deal of mental power, but they're still not intelligent. Do you get the difference i'm portraying between intelligence's "dextrous" approach to problem solving and a "brute force" approach?




Could you give a real-world example?


No, the real world does not have anything analogous to D&D's charisma score.



Meaning what? Assertiveness? That doesn't necessarily provoke a positive response.

Meaning what the game says: "force of personality." Your personality is who you are...it's what makes you, you. If that force is strong, it can project power, it can impose part of yourself on someone else. You can get people to do your will by various means when they might otherwise not. You can make people like you, fear you, whatever you desire because you have the strength of personality to do so. It's not a finesse thing when you convince someone you are right, or give them puppy dog eyes so they agree to do what you ask even if they think you're wrong, or you make people love you against your better judgement, or you make a guy twice your size back down because you exude a confidence (real or not) that makes him sure you're more dangerous than you look. That's brute force...the brute force of letting your personality itself dominate an encounter.

Stormthorn
2009-06-05, 05:09 PM
I mean like an optimized sorceror will have usually 20+ Charisma by mid level, how should their charisma be treated? Phsyical beauty? Compelling and almost hypnotic personality? Should they be made to be the natural diplomats and party leaders? Why is it it seems like Wisdom would have been the better stat?

Force of personality is represented by Charisma. I think it should be used for Will saves because of this.

Random NPC
2009-06-05, 05:14 PM
Force of personality is represented by Charisma. I think it should be used for Will saves because of this.

I see it this way: Charisma is to Strength as Wisdom is to Constitution

Devils_Advocate
2009-06-06, 12:21 AM
Do you get the difference i'm portraying between intelligence's "dextrous" approach to problem solving and a "brute force" approach?
As I once saw the Chinese room argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room) described: "Searle points to something with obvious intelligence and says 'Is that intelligent? No.'"

You could as easily say that I don't really think; my neurons just fire and their interaction gives the illusion that I'm thinking. "Free will does not actually exist in the world, but only in the sense that, say, flowers do not exist in the world."

Do you suppose that a human chess player's hardware-level subprocesses, far below the level of conscious thought, are more elegant and efficient than those of a chess-playing computer? I'm pretty sure that the human brain needs more computing power to play chess less well than some machines. But of course humans (and most computers) do a fair bit more than just decide chess moves...


No, the real world does not have anything analogous to D&D's charisma score.
Are you denying that there are persuasive people in real life? :smallconfused:


It's not a finesse thing when you convince someone you are right, or give them puppy dog eyes so they agree to do what you ask even if they think you're wrong, or you make people love you against your better judgement, or you make a guy twice your size back down because you exude a confidence (real or not) that makes him sure you're more dangerous than you look.
You don't think that finesse helps with that stuff?

Ravens_cry
2009-06-06, 01:14 AM
No, the real world does not have anything analogous to D&D's charisma score.

So what then allowed a squeaky, short, amateur painter with a goofy moustache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)to take control of a country?