What's the point? [spoilers]

[Zeitgeist]

So, maybe next strip they'll destroy the phylactery.

Then what?

Then Xykon kills/captures them, and makes a new one long before anybody else threatens him. Nothing changes. But this scene seems significant, as if it's supposed to mean something BIG.

So V and O won't kill Xykon. OOTS probably won't get there in time. But again, there HAS to be significance in destroying the phylactery. The destruction MUST result in Xykon's death before he is capable of making a new one. If not, then the law of conservation of detail is not upheld, since all of this would be pointless.

So to kill Xykon before he makes a new one, there are only two options: Redcloak, or the MitD. No matter what, there MUST be a defect.

Thoughts?

[Dagren]

How about that by the rules liches can't make a new one?

[Da'Shain]

Or Rich could be operating under the interpretation that a Lich can't make a new phylactery for himself.

I myself wouldn't rule that way, but it would certainly make the phylactery a very, VERY important target. Destroying it means that Xykon actually DIES once he's defeated; if Roy gets another lucky shot in, Xykon's done, game over.

EDIT: The rules don't really say anything either way, Dagren, unless I'm missing something. All they say is that "An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery", "Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death", and "Each lich must make its own phylactery", which doesn't seem to preclude making a new one to me. However, it's a perfectly valid houserule to say that it does.

[Zeitgeist]

I was unaware of that. I was reading people posting in other threads about him making a new one. I guess there are multiple rules?

[ZeroNumerous]

How about that by the rules liches can't make a new one?

Where does it specify that a lich only gets one?

[Cleverdan22]

Where does it specify that a lich only gets one?

No, its that he can't make one himself. Redcloak needs to, and he is decidedly somewhere else.

[Twilight Jack]

I was unaware of that. I was reading people posting in other threads about him making a new one. I guess there are multiple rules?

Not so much "multiple" rules as there is a clear statement that liches cannot build a new phylactery if theirs is destroyed, but it's in a WotC sourcebook called Libris Mortis, which is not part of the "Core" of D&D rules. It's official canon, just not core.

Some here have theorized that since it isn't core, Rich is not obligated to follow it.

I say that the significance of O-Chul and V's actions lose a lot of weight if Rich rules that Xykon (or Redcloak) can just make a new one.

[Cestrian]

Where does it specify that a lich only gets one?

Libris Mortis, I think. Though you can argue about whether or not that counts.

The core books imply it can be remade but it takes 3 months. Either way it's still a big win for the good guys.

[Twilight Jack]

The core books imply it can be remade but it takes 3 months. Either way it's still a big win for the good guys.

Actually, it implies nothing. It gives the costs in gold an XP for a caster to create one in anticipation of becoming a lich, but is silent on whether the process is repeatable in the event of the destruction of the original.

[Da'Shain]

Ah, wasn't aware of the rule in Libris Mortis.

That may indeed be in effect, as weren't the huecuva and the Eye of Fear and Flame from that book?

I still think it's more interesting if the Lich can make a new one given time, though.

[Toper]

Also, if the phylactery goes through the rift, it's not even clear if the Snarl would notice and destroy it; in the few panels we've seen, it seems generally to be more focused on devouring souls than on taking out other random bits of reality. If it remained intact in the Snarl's demiplane, then Xykon definitely couldn't make another, and the phylactery wouldn't become soul food until he was destroyed on Earth.

[Twilight Jack]

Ah, wasn't aware of the rule in Libris Mortis.

That may indeed be in effect, as weren't the huecuva and the Eye of Fear and Flame from that book?

I still think it's more interesting if the Lich can make a new one given time, though.

The Death Knight was from the MMII, the Eye of Fear and Flame was from the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Huecuva was from the Fiend Folio.

[Fish]

If it remained intact in the Snarl's demiplane, then Xykon definitely couldn't make another, and the phylactery wouldn't become soul food until he was destroyed on Earth.
That would almost be worse; if Xykon were ever destroyed, he'd regenerate at the phylactery's present location... right inside the Snarl.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that it's dramatically irrelevant whether the phylactery is destroyed by or lost within the Snarl. Nobody on this plane would be able to see or detect the difference, one way or another, so they'd operate on the basis that it was destroyed.

[Corwin Weber]

That would almost be worse; if Xykon were ever destroyed, he'd regenerate at the phylactery's present location... right inside the Snarl.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that it's dramatically irrelevant whether the phylactery is destroyed by or lost within the Snarl. Nobody on this plane would be able to see or detect the difference, one way or another, so they'd operate on the basis that it was destroyed.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you....

Shroedinger's Lich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ZombieMaster]

Uh, guys, you're forgetting one very important fact - the point of a phylactery is that it contains the liches *soul*. If you destroy the phylactery the soul is released, but what happens if the phylactery is utterly unmade by the snarl...? I think Xycon's soul goes with it and -pop- no more Xycon...

[Cestrian]

Uh, guys, you're forgetting one very important fact - the point of a phylactery is that it contains the liches *soul*. If you destroy the phylactery the soul is released, but what happens if the phylactery is utterly unmade by the snarl...? I think Xycon's soul goes with it and -pop- no more Xycon...

It only contains his soul after his latest body has been destroyed, though. Not before.

[NerfTW]

No, it houses his soul if his body is destroyed. Not all the time.

[ImmortalAer]

That would almost be worse; if Xykon were ever destroyed, he'd regenerate at the phylactery's present location... right inside the Snarl.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that it's dramatically irrelevant whether the phylactery is destroyed by or lost within the Snarl. Nobody on this plane would be able to see or detect the difference, one way or another, so they'd operate on the basis that it was destroyed.

But what if they defeat the Snarl in it's entirety (...somehow) and Xykon comes back from another dimension? Then he'll be the BBEG of doom.

[SPoD]

But again, there HAS to be significance in destroying the phylactery. The destruction MUST result in Xykon's death before he is capable of making a new one. If not, then the law of conservation of detail is not upheld, since all of this would be pointless.

Rich is in no way obligated to uphold the so-called "law of conservation of detail", and often violates it for the sake of comedy.

See: poisoned arrow that ended up going nowhere.

[NerfTW]

At the very least it cripples Xykon for a period of time. Even if he makes another one, it would take a while, giving the Order more time to prepare defenses at the next gate. Otherwise, we'd just have another Battle for Azure City all over again.

[Zeitgeist]

Rich is in no way obligated to uphold the so-called "law of conservation of detail", and often violates it for the sake of comedy.

See: poisoned arrow that ended up going nowhere.

But comedy itself is a purpose. Details exist for the story often times, but also for purposes of comedy.

I can see no way destroying his phylactery has a purpose of comedy, and I can't see Rich attempting to do so.

No one is obligated to uphold the "law" but it's good writing to do so. Useless details with no purpose tend to be pretty lame.

In any case, I was under the impression that Xykon could just whip another one up. If not, then there is definitely purpose to the destruction.

I still think RC will kill him.

[mec]

That would almost be worse; if Xykon were ever destroyed, he'd regenerate at the phylactery's present location... right inside the Snarl.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that it's dramatically irrelevant whether the phylactery is destroyed by or lost within the Snarl. Nobody on this plane would be able to see or detect the difference, one way or another, so they'd operate on the basis that it was destroyed.

Xykon said that he cast so many abjurations on his phylactery that he forgot what half of them do. I bet that he has prepared Instant Summons on the phylactery. If the Snarl is unintelligent and the phylactery is un-soul-filled and Xykon has made that preparation, then he can retrieve his phylactery even from the Snarl-plane.

[Corwin Weber]

No, it houses his soul if his body is destroyed. Not all the time.

That's actually not conclusively proven.....

We all know he can't die here. The Oracle may have his quirks when it comes to predictions but this one was pretty cut and dried. That having been said, we don't know that his soul isn't in the phylactery all the time.

Erm.... now that I think about it.... yes we do. It is. Check out Redcloak's description of Xykon to Miko.

** EDIT **

Ok, nevermind. I just checked it. I was sure Redcloak had specifically referred to Xykon as 'soulless' but he didn't.

He did call him a construct, tho.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

So, maybe next strip they'll destroy the phylactery.

Then what?

Then Xykon kills/captures them, and makes a new one long before anybody else threatens him. Nothing changes. But this scene seems significant, as if it's supposed to mean something BIG.

Well we don't know if, in this setting it is even possible for a lich to create a new phylactery.

In fact in normal settings it would probably be up to the DM to interpret the rules to decide whether it is possible.

And maybe he does capture them - alternativly he flies after Heroic Bird Familiar and in that time V and O-Chul feather fall out of the tower and away.


So V and O won't kill Xykon. OOTS probably won't get there in time. But again, there HAS to be significance in destroying the phylactery. The destruction MUST result in Xykon's death before he is capable of making a new one. If not, then the law of conservation of detail is not upheld, since all of this would be pointless.

Only if Xykon can make a new one. If not then suddenly he is on his last life, which will likely change his attitude somewhat since it means he can't throw himself joyfully into harms way and be confident no matter what happens he'll be up and about again in a week or so.


So to kill Xykon before he makes a new one, there are only two options: Redcloak, or the MitD. No matter what, there MUST be a defect.

Thoughts?

As I said I think that would only matter if Xykon can make a new one. If not then it serves to shake Xykon up.

If someone was to defect however it would have to be Redcloak, because he has a plan that can keep the plot moving and continue to involve the Gates.

The MitD? He doesn't have a drive or plan that would require his continued presence outside of continuing along with Team Evil for now. Think of it - most of the characters motivations are around, or caught up with Xykon and Redcloak's plan for the Gates. Team Evil want the Gates, OotS want to stop them. Powerful MitD breaks away and... well doesn't really have a part to play. As long as he is with Team Evil he is in position for a major reveal and/or critical moment turn to the good side or decision Team Evil is where his heart is.

[Ghastly Epigram]

That having been said, we don't know that his soul isn't in the phylactery all the time.


Start of Darkness spoiler:
It isn't. :smalltongue:

[Wraithfighter]

Well, just judging by Xykon's reactions in the last few strips, he's been treating the threat to his Phylactery as more of an annoyance than his potential ruin, especially compared to back when Soon was about to stomp him into bone dust.

Then again, that might just be overconfidence in the Phylactery's defenses...

*shrug*

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Well, just judging by Xykon's reactions in the last few strips, he's been treating the threat to his Phylactery as more of an annoyance than his potential ruin, especially compared to back when Soon was about to stomp him into bone dust.

True, although he wasn't worried till Soon told him clearly he'd put both Xykon and Redcloak down, then ensure someone else destroyed the phylactery, so I guess it occurred to him that the his phylcatery was in very real danger and neither he or Redcloak would be able to do anything about it.

At the moment it doesn't appear he thinks V or O-Chul pose a threat to it, or to his actual body, so it is just a matter of killing/capturing them.


Then again, that might just be overconfidence in the Phylactery's defenses...

*shrug*

Possibly, they have done a good job so far.

[Souju]

i dunno, if Xykon's phylactery ended up in the snarl-plane or whatever, and then he was destroyed on our side in the climactic battle, it'd be pretty awesome if, just as the last portal is being closed, he appears all one-winged angel-y...

[Mystic Muse]

maybe rich will appear and say he's following the rules of Libris mortis.

[Exeson]

Some here have theorized that since it isn't core, Rich is not obligated to follow it.

Even if it is core Rich does not have to follow it. Just thought I would point that out.

Also, I haven't checked 4E yet, what are the rules for Liches in that? (if any?) because remember the OotS world is now a hybrid thingymabob.

[shadzar]

Even if it is core Rich does not have to follow it. Just thought I would point that out.

Also, I haven't checked 4E yet, what are the rules for Liches in that? (if any?) because remember the OotS world is now a hybrid thingymabob.

OOTS isn't going 4th.

Liches are nothing more than just another monster with a stat-block in 4th. Just a type of KEYWORD: UNDEAD monster.

I think they pray to Orcus or something, and can be any level 12 caster (arcane or divine) :smallconfused:

[Trixie]

Well, regardless of the issue of making another phylactery now... If Xykon could find a way to turn himself into a Demi-Lich then he could begin mass production of phylacteries and the point would be, indeed, moot.

[Ridureyu]

OOTS isn't going 4th.

Liches are nothing more than just another monster with a stat-block in 4th. Just a type of KEYWORD: UNDEAD monster.

I think they pray to Orcus or something, and can be any level 12 caster (arcane or divine) :smallconfused:


Liches are nothing more than a stat block in every edition. It's the GMs and Players who give them character. You could transplant any monster's stats in any edition to anything you want, the issue is what they do in game.

[Mystic Muse]

in 4th a lich can always make another phylactery if the previous one breaks. all they need is 50,000 GP in addition to the 250,000 you have to spend in order to become a lich in the first place.

[mistformsquirrl]

I don't' think it matters if he can make another one. The reason being this:

Making a magic item requires you work on it 8 hours a day, and cannot engage in any strenuous activity (like combat or adventuring). That means:

A) Xykon is pretty much immobile for 3-4 months. This is not a short span of time by any stretch.

B) He's vulnerable during this entire time - because before the time is up, you kill him, he stays dead. And if you actually get him to fight, he has to start over again.

C) It costs vast sums of cash; which while a tertiary problem at best, it's still going to hurt his army in the long run. (Lets face it, even an army that doesn't require pay is still going to need fed (and if no one is doing the farming, a city is going to run out of food eventually) - then you have maintenance for equipment, etc...)

Basically, even if it isn't permanent, it is a big hit, and leaves him vulnerable. It's also something he can't actually protect against, as the Snarl doesn't care what abjurations you've got.


Oh and there's also D) - It's entirely possible that a phylactery destroyed by normal means could be remade, but having said object "unmade" could have more disastrous consequences by far. It might be impossible to recreate under such circumstances, or it may even hurt Xykon due to his connection with it.

On the other hand it's entirely possible it's not even the real phylactery and this is just a very expensive fake.

Soooooooooo... <@_@> I dunno.

[Moriarty]

Well, regardless of the issue of making another phylactery now... If Xykon could find a way to turn himself into a Demi-Lich then he could begin mass production of phylacteries and the point would be, indeed, moot.

meh, DemiLiches might have multiple phylactery, but they can only hide one. the other ones have to be inside the body of the demilich

[Soupman]

Uh, guys, you're forgetting one very important fact - the point of a phylactery is that it contains the liches *soul*. If you destroy the phylactery the soul is released, but what happens if the phylactery is utterly unmade by the snarl...? I think Xycon's soul goes with it and -pop- no more Xycon...

I would agree. No matter what, I think feeding the phylactery to the snarl, will do something dramatic to Xykon

[Jaysyn]

Uh, guys, you're forgetting one very important fact - the point of a phylactery is that it contains the liches *soul*. If you destroy the phylactery the soul is released, but what happens if the phylactery is utterly unmade by the snarl...? I think Xycon's soul goes with it and -pop- no more Xycon...

And you're missing the point that the phylactery only contains the lich's soul, when the lich's body is destroyed.

[Jaysyn]

in 4th a lich can always make another phylactery if the previous one breaks. all they need is 50,000 GP in addition to the 250,000 you have to spend in order to become a lich in the first place.

OOtS isn't retarded, therefore isn't 4th Ed.

[Rethorn]

You're all missing the forest through the trees. The question isn't over whether the Phylactery can come back if it is destroyed, it's whether it'll be destroyed at all.

The Snarl does not destroy. It unmakes. If you houserule that a phylactery can/cannot be remade when something is destroyed, it doesn't matter at all in this case. The Snarl uses the threads of fabric to unmake it, so that it's as if it never existed. It supersedes the power of the Gods, and can prevent mortals from entering their appropriate planes upon death.

So, here's my question. If you CAN make another phylactery, would it prevent you from doing that because it was never technically destroyed? If Xykon is killed does his soul go into the rift if the Snarl chooses not to unmake the phylactery? Does it undo his Lichdom all together as the Snarl slowly unravels the phylactery?

Edit -- well, crap. When people started talking about 4th edition I skipped the last few posts and made this. And of course when I go back to read that's where people mention this. Boo.

[Moriarty]

what's the difference between destroyed and unmade in this case?

the way i see it, it only matters when the snarl attacks things with a soul inside, as it can destroy the soul itself

[Dr. Cthulwho]

what's the difference between destroyed and unmade in this case?

the way i see it, it only matters when the snarl attacks things with a soul inside, as it can destroy the soul itself

When I think of the context I imagine something being destroyed leaving remains, be it rubble or ash or worse, where as unmaking something is as good as erasing it. You take it past destroyed to the point where it has utterly and completely ceased to exist.

The Snarl unmakes worlds, gods, souls etc utterly and completely. Nothing is left.

[Acrux]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you....

Shroedinger's Lich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that anything like this? :smallbiggrin:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1014

[Zolem]

You are all forgeting one thing. A lich exists because his phylarchy stores his SOUL. A SOUL that comes in contact with the Snarl is destroyed. Hence, if a phylarchy comes in contact witht he snarl, not only is it destroyed, but the SOUL is as well.

[Cestrian]

Uh, guys, you're forgetting one very important fact - the point of a phylactery is that it contains the liches *soul*. If you destroy the phylactery the soul is released, but what happens if the phylactery is utterly unmade by the snarl...? I think Xycon's soul goes with it and -pop- no more Xycon...

30 posts later:


You are all forgeting one thing. A lich exists because his phylarchy stores his SOUL. A SOUL that comes in contact with the Snarl is destroyed. Hence, if a phylarchy comes in contact witht he snarl, not only is it destroyed, but the SOUL is as well.

I'm just saying, I can think of at least one person who wasn't forgetting that.

Anyway, as we told Zombiemaster, the soul is only in the phylactery after Xykon's body is destroyed. Right now it's empty.

[Dagren]

I think they pray to Orcus or something, and can be any level 12 caster (arcane or divine) :smallconfused:What's with the face? That's pretty much how they are in 3.5 too. Check out the first sentence of the SRD page on them.

[Arcane Hoplite]

I think that we should of course consider the possibility that the familiar fails to throw the phylactery into the Snarl...

BUT, if it succeeds, then I'm sure Xykon will be gone for good. But then of course Redcloak will take over, and everything will take a new dramatic turn...

[Optimystik]

I think they pray to Orcus or something, and can be any level 12 caster (arcane or divine) :smallconfused:

Isn't Vecna still around?

[Timberboar]

Remember -- it's a soul MAGNET, not a soul cupboard.

[Random832]

Remember -- it's a soul MAGNET, not a soul cupboard.

Which could still have interesting consequences in the right circumstances - it has a connection to his soul, certainly. One the snarl would notice and be able to maybe yank on it a bit?

[Omegonthesane]

When I think of the context I imagine something being destroyed leaving remains, be it rubble or ash or worse, where as unmaking something is as good as erasing it. You take it past destroyed to the point where it has utterly and completely ceased to exist.

The Snarl unmakes worlds, gods, souls etc utterly and completely. Nothing is left.

Technically, the threads of reality that made up those worlds, gods, souls etc. are left. Unless they get tangled into the Snarl as well... in which case technically they're still left, just trapped in the form of the Snarl.


Remember -- it's a soul MAGNET, not a soul cupboard.

Both wrong. It's a soul hidey place!

[Sanguine]

Even if it is core Rich does not have to follow it. Just thought I would point that out.

Also, I haven't checked 4E yet, what are the rules for Liches in that? (if any?) because remember the OotS world is now a hybrid thingymabob.


How is it a hybrid?:smallconfused: The only reference to 4th ed to my knowledge was someone saying Elan uses stupid as a powersource.

[EENick]

Well regardless of what else happens I don't think Xykon is likely to trust Redcloak with his phylactery anymore.

[Optimystik]

How is it a hybrid?:smallconfused: The only reference to 4th ed to my knowledge was someone saying Elan uses stupid as a powersource.

Kubota (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html) could also be seen reading up on 4E for some reason.

I agree with you that the comic is still distinctly 3.5e, I just wanted to point that out. :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

Kubota (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html) could also be seen reading up on 4E for some reason.

I agree with you that the comic is still distinctly 3.5e, I just wanted to point that out. :smalltongue:

I thank V every time I read that strip, for Kubota got his just desserts for getting his copy of the 4E core books from Amazon before I (y'know, an actual human) did. :smalltongue:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Technically, the threads of reality that made up those worlds, gods, souls etc. are left. Unless they get tangled into the Snarl as well... in which case technically they're still left, just trapped in the form of the Snarl.

Yeah, that is a better way of looking at it. If one imagines the people, souls, world etc as woolly scarves then snarl unmakes them in the same sense as the scarf can be unraveled and reduced to nothing more then the component wool, what it once was is completely gone (in a conceptual and reality based sense).

Where as if you destroy the scarf by cutting it up, then you just have a cut up scarf. Xykon (without phylactery) gets destroyed completely then there could be some bone dust and his soul gets shot off to the afterlife he has earnt etc. Xykon gets unmade and he doesn't exist any longer in any sense of the word.

[Dork Lord]

Isn't Vecna still around?

As far as I know, he died in the "Die Vecna Die" module.

[spargel]

Xykon got himself thrown into one of the rifts before and his soul didn't get unmade.

[Snake-Aes]

Xykon got himself thrown into one of the rifts before and his soul didn't get unmade.

Gate. It was a spell contained in the gate. Not in the rift the gate contained.

[Boaromir]

Xykon got himself thrown into one of the rifts before and his soul didn't get unmade.


Technically, he got thrown into one of the gates that was being warded with Epic magic and his body was destroyed. The rift itself wasn't opened until after the dungeon exploded. You know, with the 'KRACKAKOOM(paraphrased)' that we've seen each time a gate has been destroyed.

Also, I think whether or not Rich is following the Libris Mortis rules or not, and even if Xykon COULD remake the phylactery, managing to throw it into the Snarl is going to have some sort of unforeseen consequences no one's thought of yet.


Edit: Got beat to it.

[quick_comment]

There is also the possibility that this will awaken the snarl.

[Draxonicar]

Also, if the phylactery goes through the rift, it's not even clear if the Snarl would notice and destroy it; in the few panels we've seen, it seems generally to be more focused on devouring souls than on taking out other random bits of reality. If it remained intact in the Snarl's demiplane, then Xykon definitely couldn't make another, and the phylactery wouldn't become soul food until he was destroyed on Earth.

But then when xykon regenerates inside the snarl....:smallfrown: