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BooNL
2009-06-02, 02:57 AM
Hi there,

This is the first time I'm asking for character advice for a pbp, but I feel it's necessary. The thing is, I'm willingly creating a character for the Tomb of Horrors. I've never played it but heard great things about it.

I'm looking to build a dwarf who is able to take a beating from all those horrible traps and other stuff and I'd welcome some input.

My first thought was barbarian/dwarven defender if the dm allows it (chaotic/lawful stuff).

My stats are, in no order:
14
16
4 (might get rerolled, or bumped. Or else tossed in Cha, yay 2 Cha dwarf!)
16
15
12

Character level is 10th.

So, any advice on creating the ultimate soak? I'd prefer not to have sticky fingers from all that cheese, but I'd appreciate your input.

Doc Roc
2009-06-02, 03:01 AM
Make a dwarf who can disarm them as well as take a beating.
A great many of them are save or die.
If you'd like help with that, I'll help, but I'll send no build of mine to die where it's useless.

Iku Rex
2009-06-02, 03:35 AM
Books available?

Salt_Crow
2009-06-02, 03:37 AM
2 levels of Deepwarden from RoS adds Con bonus instead of Dex to AC. This might help you greatly.

Talic
2009-06-02, 04:00 AM
Make a dwarf who can disarm them as well as take a beating.
A great many of them are save or die.
If you'd like help with that, I'll help, but I'll send no build of mine to die where it's useless.

Well, the counter to that is if your lowest save is a +30, and you don't autofail fort saves on a 1.

Ref and Will, you don't autofail on a 1, so long as you don't need to make more than 1 per round.

BooNL
2009-06-02, 04:05 AM
The DM has provided a list of books he owns, but considering this is ToH I'm fairly certain I can swing by a couple of stuff if I explain them to him.
So for now, every book is fair game.

I'm liking that Deepwarden concept there Salt Crow. I'm thinking of doing an high Con build, so that fits well. I was also looking at Dwarf Paragon, High BAB, +resist to spells and effects and +2 Con are all nice as well.

Tidesinger, you make a good point. However, I'm really trying to build me a high con/ac/saves character here who will be able to survive if the party rogue screws up. I don't think I'll have enough skill points to work into disable device and most Trapfinding classes I know of aren't that sturdy.
Also, I don't expect him to survive, I do expect him to last.

So, advice good sirs please!

Also, to keep my head from exploding I prefer to play simple to understand builds. So no class 1/class 2/prestige 1/prestige 2/class 3/LA/prestige 3 builds please :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2009-06-02, 04:44 AM
OK. The real key to any solid Saving throw build?

Con and Cha.

Below are options:

Con: 2 Feats Required (Endurance, Steadfast Determination).
Effect: Con applies to Will saves instead of Wisdom. Don't Autofail Fort saves on a roll of 1.

Con: 1 Class Recommended (Warblade).
Effect: Moment of Perfect Mind Maneuver and Action Before Thought maneuver. Replaces a Saving throw (Will or Reflex) with a concentration check. Skill checks don't autofail on a roll of 1. Bonus: With Adaptive Style (feat), you can take a full round action to recover all your maneuvers. This gives you that ability every round.

Cha: Class Required: Paladin (2 levels)
Effect: Charisma applies to all saving throws.

Cha synergizes with AC, as does Con.

Con: Deepwarden PrC. Con to AC instead of Dex.
Cha: Shield Specialization/Shield Ward/Divine Shield. Shield adds to Touch AC, and you can burn a turn attempt to add your Cha modifier to your shield's AC bonus.

Now, with this, if you focused on Con and Cha, with Dex and Int being Dump, and Wisdom being alright...

A Paladin 4/Warblade 1/Deepwarden 2/Flavor the rest to taste...

Holy Warrior Paladin Variant exchanges spells for feats. Extra Smiting? Extra Turning? Good choices.

Charging Smite Paladin Variant exhanges mount for a much more powerful smite on a charge. Useful when you won't see a lot of use from a mount.

Awesome Smite Tactical feat lets you ignore concealment when smiting... Or DR/Hardness.

Now there's a Paladin themed Cha/Con based build for High AC/Saves.

With an 18 Cha base, a 16 Con base, and a 10 Wis/10 Dex?
Fort gets a +7 bonus before you factor in class saves
Ref gets a +3.
Will gets a +7.

At level 8, if you stat into Cha? 8/4/8 bonus.

Action before thought and moment of perfect mind? at level 8, you'll have 11 ranks + 4 Con + 2 MW Skill item = +17 on reflex or will.

There are items in the psionics books that provide a +9 on Concentration checks. That item just turned into +9 on saving throws.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-02, 04:55 AM
Forget Dwarven Defender, it's not even good enough to play in a core-only game with no spellcasters. Crusader 20 is probably what you'll want, if you have access to Tome of Battle. Definitely get Stone Power, Shield Specialization, and Shield Ward. You'll probably also want Extra Granted Maneuver, (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization, and Improved Toughness and Extra Smiting are nice if you run out of better choices.

For your race I'd go with a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (heart aspect), and use the Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) template if you can, especially if you can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) the +1 LA. That will get Str +6, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -4, with +3 natural armor, land speed 30 ft., swim speed 30 ft., burrow speed 15 ft., and a breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds. I'd get Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon to switch your breath weapon to a debuff, which would help keep your opponents focused on you instead of trying to run by to attack someone else. Maybe even take Recover Breath from the Draconomicon to reduce the delay between breaths by one round.

If you can use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Stone Power, Entangling Exhalation, and Recover Breath at level 1, and Shield Specialization and Shield Ward at 3 and 6. You'd probably want Heavy Armor Optimization at 9 and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization at 12, and I'd get Extra Smiting at 15 and Improved Toughness at 18. I don't know anything about Tomb of Horrors, so I have no idea what level you'll be starting at and what level it plays to.

Talic
2009-06-02, 05:44 AM
@Biff:
I generally find it more useful to build towards what the OP is asking for, rather than telling him how wrong his idea is, and giving him something 100% different.

I mean, if we're just talking about the "best" class at being hard to hurt?

Wizard 10/IotSV 7/ACM 3 would be up there.

But he didn't ask for a wizard.
Just like he didn't ask for a non-dwarf fire-breathing mineral warrior.

BooNL
2009-06-02, 08:33 AM
Thanks for your suggestions Talic and Biff. Amazing how quickly you guys can come up with totally broken builds :smallbiggrin:.

For me, I consider anything with more than 3 mechanics or classes broken. I like things simple and easy. That said, I am well aware that a medium damage soaker will instantly fail the ToH.

I might have to stray from my original idea. I don't have my books here, so I can't come up with specific crunch.

Maybe I'm approaching this too roleplayey...

Tengu_temp
2009-06-02, 08:48 AM
For me, I consider anything with more than 3 mechanics or classes broken.

Monk/Samurai/Warlock/Forsaker.

BooNL
2009-06-02, 09:00 AM
Monk/Samurai/Warlock/Forsaker.

Absolutely broken beyond belief!

Tengu_temp
2009-06-02, 09:05 AM
Yup, because "broken" does not specify in itself how exactly is the character imbalanced in comparison to the others.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 09:34 AM
I might have to stray from my original idea. I don't have my books here, so I can't come up with specific crunch.

The Warblade is almost always the way to go for this sort of thing.

For a Barbarianish feel? Take a couple Tiger Claw maneuvers.

For a Dwarven Defender feel? Take Stone Dragon. Mountain Hammer disarms traps plenty well.

For a chance of surviving the ToH? Diamond Mind counters should make saves less of an ordeal.

Eldariel
2009-06-02, 09:44 AM
Monk/Samurai/Warlock/Forsaker.

Uh, try Monk/Samurai/Soulknife/Truenamer. Or Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Favored Soul 1/Psion 1/Wilder 1/Wu Jen 1/Shugenja 1/Spirit Shaman 1/Warmage 1/Warlock 1/Greenstar Adept 1/Dragon Disciple 1/Soulknife 1/Shadowcaster 1/Survivor 5. BAB +0 on level 20. A lot of level 1 spells though. Crappy skills, but surprisingly solid saves (unless applying the +2 only once). It'll fail all its Ref- and most its Fort-saves before the Survivor-levels though.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-02, 09:59 AM
BAB +0 on level 20. A lot of level 1 spells though. Crappy skills, but surprisingly solid saves (unless applying the +2 only once). It'll fail all its Ref- and most its Fort-saves before the Survivor-levels though.

That raises an important question for the OP in this context --

How do you treat saves when multiclassing?

Do you use fractional BA/saves in your games or do you transfer the numbers directly from the charts?

So would a Monk 1/Cleric 1/Paladin 2 have base saves of +4/+3/+3 or +7/+2/+4?
That can make some multiclasses a whole lot better and some a whole lot worse.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-02, 10:39 AM
The Warblade is almost always the way to go for this sort of thing.

For a Barbarianish feel? Take a couple Tiger Claw maneuvers.

For a Dwarven Defender feel? Take Stone Dragon. Mountain Hammer disarms traps plenty well.

For a chance of surviving the ToH? Diamond Mind counters should make saves less of an ordeal.This. Good amor, Sword&Board that works, and skill checks to replace saves means that a Warblade 8/Deepwarden 2 with a Con-focus and Conc boosted is very good.

You'll still die, of course, and it will actually probably be more horrible and painful than if you had just made a standard Beatstick, but...actually, I can't think of a but to that.

Another_Poet
2009-06-02, 11:01 AM
From page 1 of Tomb of Horrors (Revised) for 3.5:


An Adventure for Four to Six 9th-Level Characters

From the product page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a):


Suitable for 9th-level characters

From the original poster:


Character level is 10th.


If you offer a 20th level build you have failed to help the OP.

As you were.

ap

Zaq
2009-06-02, 11:48 AM
Having never played the ToH, I don't know how much (if any) of its dangers are actual normal poison instead of simple auto-death, but having a 4 in any stat is just begging for one unlucky dose of poison to drop you to 0. (Yeah, you're a dwarf, and you'll have high CON. It's still not worth the risk.) Sure, you can cover it up, but it's still a big weak spot. If you were a video game boss, the hero's lock-on targeting system would zero in on that score, and when he forced you to drop the armor around it for a second, it would be flashing bright red.

wadledo
2009-06-02, 12:49 PM
If you offer a 20th level build you have failed to help the OP.

As you were.

ap

If you can't realize that sometimes people play beyond one adventure, you're not helping anyone.

Obnoxious
sig

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-02, 02:06 PM
If you can't realize that sometimes people play beyond one adventure, you're not helping anyone.If you think anyone in the ToH is likely to last past one floor, you're not going to be helpful. :smallwink:

Another_Poet
2009-06-02, 03:52 PM
If you think anyone in the ToH is likely to last past one floor, you're not going to be helpful. :smallwink:

Exactement!

Justin B.
2009-06-02, 04:23 PM
Actually Barbarian may be appropriate, considering there is an alternate class feature that allows you to exchange trap sense for some sort of trap breaking skill. Not sure where to find it, but it was in Eldariels Barbarian Guide.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-02, 04:35 PM
Its in Dungeonscape, by the Giant himself.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-02, 04:41 PM
Thanks for your suggestions Talic and Biff. Amazing how quickly you guys can come up with totally broken builds :smallbiggrin:.

For me, I consider anything with more than 3 mechanics or classes broken. I like things simple and easy. That said, I am well aware that a medium damage soaker will instantly fail the ToH.
The build I suggested is surprisingly easy. If there's any damage in your delayed damage pool, you use a Stone Dragon maneuver or a regular melee (full) attack and use Stone Power for -5. If there's no damage in your delayed pool and your Breath Weapon is up, use Entangling Exhalation. If there's no damage in your delayed pool and your breath weapon isn't up, use a maneuver or a regular melee (full) attack, using Stone Power for -5 if you can.

I just remembered, regardless of what you make you should probably take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at level 3 and invest every skill point you get after that. The 10% XP bonus alone is worth spending the feat on, plus you can upgrade it yourself at half price as though you had the proper item creation feats. If you start with a +1 LA and buy it off at your 3rd class level you'd normally start 3,000 XP short of the starting level. With Item Familiar a 10th level character will have an extra 4,500 XP, so you'd be able to buy off a +1 LA and upgrade 37,500 gp worth of properties to it for half price and still start with just as much XP as everyone else.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-06-02, 04:49 PM
Forget Dwarven Defender, it's not even good enough to play in a core-only game with no spellcasters. Crusader 20 is probably what you'll want, if you have access to Tome of Battle. Definitely get Stone Power, Shield Specialization, and Shield Ward. You'll probably also want Extra Granted Maneuver, (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization, and Improved Toughness and Extra Smiting are nice if you run out of better choices.

For your race I'd go with a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (heart aspect), and use the Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) template if you can, especially if you can buy off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) the +1 LA. That will get Str +6, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -4, with +3 natural armor, land speed 30 ft., swim speed 30 ft., burrow speed 15 ft., and a breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds. I'd get Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon to switch your breath weapon to a debuff, which would help keep your opponents focused on you instead of trying to run by to attack someone else. Maybe even take Recover Breath from the Draconomicon to reduce the delay between breaths by one round.

If you can use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Stone Power, Entangling Exhalation, and Recover Breath at level 1, and Shield Specialization and Shield Ward at 3 and 6. You'd probably want Heavy Armor Optimization at 9 and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization at 12, and I'd get Extra Smiting at 15 and Improved Toughness at 18. I don't know anything about Tomb of Horrors, so I have no idea what level you'll be starting at and what level it plays to.

Biff, you basically built my Khepesk. Except for the Water Orc part, I built an Earth Dwarf. :smallbiggrin:

Khepesk ECL8

Dragonborn (Breath Weapon) Earth Dwarf Mineral Warrior, Winged Creature (Prestige Race)

Warblade 7 / Fighter 2 / Deepwarden 2 / Deepstone Sentinel 10

Feats: Improved Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Earth's Embrace, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Improved Sunder , Combat Brute, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Blind-Fight, etc.

Took Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Mind as soon as I could.
Stances are Punishing Stance and Crushing Weight of the Mountain (as I am a grapple-maester).

Siosilvar
2009-06-02, 04:53 PM
Cha: Class Required: Paladin (2 levels)
Effect: Charisma applies to all saving throws.

Taking Hexblade 2 also works, but it's harder to get Cha to AC.

And of course, you could take both to get Cha to saves twice, but it's a bit hard to justify.

Doc Roc
2009-06-02, 05:18 PM
If you PM me, I can explain in detail some strong but fun builds from tome of battle. I don't feel like hammering out a page and a half long post without knowing that you want such a thing.

Jack_Simth
2009-06-02, 05:21 PM
Taking Hexblade 2 also works, but it's harder to get Cha to AC.

There are, however, a few ways - a one-level dip in Monk, something to get you 2nd level spontaneous spells, and the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer will do it. The Arcane Duelist PrC will also do it for you. There's more, but most of the stuff in the Tomb doesn't attack AC (but the stuff that does is blasted annoying).


And of course, you could take both to get Cha to saves twice, but it's a bit hard to justify.Variant Paladin, Unearthed Arcana - Tyranny and Slaughter are compatible with the Hexblade; not a problem.

However, whenever I'm building for the Tomb of Horrors, I build the guy who can deal with all the traps. Generally either a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Sorcerer (but most casters can do this, including the Warlock, although he's got a slightly harder time of it). You need:

1) A way to survive without air (for the entire party - Necklaces of Adaptation, a good choice of race, a bottle of air, whatever). This is in case you miss something relatively subtle - a poison gas trap, perhaps.
2) A way to get a neigh-limitless number of completely loyal cannon fodder to throw at traps (The Elemental Summoning Reserve Feat (Complete Mage) - can also be replaced with a lot of castings of Summon Monster I, a lot of castings of Unseen Servant plus a lot of mundane sacks and a pick - have the Unseen Servant drag a 100 pound sack of rocks around, and make sure to get a chicken to tie to it as well - it's a 1 cp trade good, they're not expensive). This is to send well ahead of you to spring traps in advance. You also need to make sure you can communicate with them easily (for take the languages for your summons, essentially).
3) A way to locate magical things essentially at whim (Permanencied Arcane Sight, Permanencied Detect Magic, the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat (Complete Mage), a lot of castings of Detect Magic, or a lot of castings of Arcane Sight). This is to locate magical items and objects. If it's mounted in place, destroy it. If it's not, have a member of your cannon fodder drop it in your portable hole from a safe distance - unless it's a container of some kind, of course.
4) A way to damage objects essentially at whim and at range (lots of castings of Shout, the Acidic Splatter Reserve Feat (Complete Mage), whatever). This is to destroy the traps once you've located them with 2 or 3.
5) A way to avoid needing to leave for resupply (lots of rations, a racial pick, a Sustaining Spoon, a Ring of Sustenance, whatever, because you'll be a while).
6) A portable hole (this is for dragging your loot out - don't forget that most metals are trade goods, so make sure to break them up into itty bitty pieces and dump them in the hole).

A couple of notes:
1) Stand well back in case something goes wrong, and let the traditional party trapfinder take first stab. Once the traditional trapfinder has given up, then you go through with the Trapsmith laid out above.
2) Use the above, a LOT. You want something going in advance of your intended path of travel as much as possible, so that you're out of range when it goes sour. Anything needs manipulation? Have a member of the cannon fodder do it. Anything needs to be picked up? Have a member of the cannon fodder do it. And so on.
3) There's a couple of creature encounters in there. They're tougher than they should be, but there aren't many of them. Be prepared for them, though.
4) Don't go through anything you can't see past. Assume it's solid and dangerous until demonstrated otherwise by your cannon fodder.

Doc Roc
2009-06-02, 05:25 PM
I really think you might consider factotum->chameleon if you start to feel like maybe changing character concepts. Factotum 8/chameleon 2!
You hurt things, you take a decent number of hits, you get a little casting

Important questions:
How many players?
How much experience between them?
Does anyone have grabby-hands syndrome?
IF so, get them to play the guy who has trouble dying. Picking up random things in the Tomb WILL TPK you. And you will not be amused.

Heliomance
2009-06-02, 05:44 PM
I just remembered, regardless of what you make you should probably take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at level 3 and invest every skill point you get after that. The 10% XP bonus alone is worth spending the feat on, plus you can upgrade it yourself at half price as though you had the proper item creation feats. If you start with a +1 LA and buy it off at your 3rd class level you'd normally start 3,000 XP short of the starting level. With Item Familiar a 10th level character will have an extra 4,500 XP, so you'd be able to buy off a +1 LA and upgrade 37,500 gp worth of properties to it for half price and still start with just as much XP as everyone else.

Item Familiar is ridiculously cheesy, bordering on TO, though. I'd never take it, and I'm a shameless optimiser bordering on powergamer.

Talic
2009-06-02, 06:17 PM
If you want Ascetic Mage?

A Paladin 4/Warblade 1/Deepwarden 2/Sorceror 1/Monk 1/Whatever else

Feat: Precocious Apprentice
Yes, it's a lot. If you have crazy good Cha, it's better than armor, though.

Without crazy good Cha, you're better with the Divine Shield feat to add Cha to shield.