Factotum Cunning Strike

[Frog Dragon]

Can you use multiple inspiration points to gain more Sneak Attack dice with Cunning Strike? The description doesn't really specify.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but thats awefully IP intensive. Typically, a lower level Factotum might take the feat Craven, and then spend 1 IP to get 1d6+level bonus damage, rather than spend a bunch of IP to get a larger amount of dice.

[Zaq]

The general precedent is that if it doesn't say you can expend multiple uses of a single ability at once, you usually can't. A paladin can't pile three Smite Evils onto a single blow, for instance.

[Animefunkmaster]

To my knowledge this is the general rule of thumb for how a factotum generates lots of damage in combat with the feat(s) Font of Inspiration. Talk to your DM, as the rules aren't specifically clear one way or another.

[Goatman_Ted]

The general precedent is that if it doesn't say you can expend multiple uses of a single ability at once, you usually can't. A paladin can't pile three Smite Evils onto a single blow, for instance.

What makes you think this?

I didn't think anything was stopping the Paladin except the fact that the bonuses wouldn't stack with themselves.

The general rule is that extra dice stack, extra flat bonuses do not (so a Factotum could stack Cunning Strikes for damage, but not Cunning Insight).

[Frog Dragon]

To my knowledge this is the general rule of thumb for how a factotum generates lots of damage in combat with the feat(s) Font of Inspiration. Talk to your as the rules aren't specifically clear one way or another.
I assume you mean talk to your DM. Well the problem is for when it matters, I'll be the dm since one of my players (playing the rogue) wants to multiclass into factotum and I'm not sure how to handle it, but if there's no official ruling on the matter then I think I'll allow stacking the Sneak attack from IP. Thanks everyone.

[Person_Man]

Talk to your DM. In general, I think it's a waste of an Inspiration Point. They have much better things to do with them.

[Swooper]

I'd allow it myself, as a DM, up to a maximum of the number of dice a rogue of the factotum's level would have for Sneak Attack.

[Thurbane]

I've asked this same question in the FAQ thread, and the answer was no. I totally agree with this, as the wording of the text itself only ever indicates using a single point for 1d6 damage. Any other reading of it is...creative, to say the least.

[Curmudgeon]

It's just 1 inspiration point.
you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. The text is very consistent in the use of the singular.

[FMArthur]

It's a total waste of print if you can only add 1d6. It does not use an action, and adding dice stack. The only possible scenario where it becomes broken is if you allow them to use the inherently broken Font of Inspiration feat. If you do let people use FoI, then Swooper's solution is best. A 1d6 limit would be asinine.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a total waste of print if you can only add 1d6. The limitation is in the basic design of the class.
But while a factotum learns many paths, he masters none of them. Rogues take many levels to attain decent amounts of sneak attack dice. Factotums haven't earned that. They get 1d6.

[FMArthur]

The limitation is in the basic design of the class.

I doubt it was designed to be limited in this way; it wouldn't be consistent with the quality of the rest of the class (and entire book IMO). I don't see what limitation you are talking about. The ability itself spends one point and gives 1d6, but it doesn't use an action or limit the number of times you can do this before your attack or mention additional IPs spent being unable to stack (which it does by default because it's a damage die and not a bonus).


Rogues take many levels to attain decent amounts of sneak attack dice. Factotums haven't earned that. They get 1d6.

Factotums quickly fall behind rogues when making sneak attacks, and they use points they earn from levelling. You don't even get enough IPs to do more than one good sneak attack in a battle. It's true that the Factotum steals a bit of the Rogue's thunder and seems to be designed to do so, but not in terms of Sneak Attack.

[Thurbane]

It's a total waste of print if you can only add 1d6.
Tell that to the Truenamer, or CW Samurai! :smalltongue: It's not like there isn't a precedent for (virtually) useless class abilities.

Curmudgeon's reading of the ability is 100% accurate in my opinion - there really is no ambiguity to indicate otherwise in the wording.

[Sinfire Titan]

The only possible scenario where it becomes broken is if you allow them to use the inherently broken Font of Inspiration feat.

:sigh:

FoI isn't broken. It's when you allow custom magic items that grant FoI and stack with each other and the feat itself that it breaks the game (it's easy to get around 30 or 40 IP if you allow that kind of item). FoI actually fixes the Factotum's main weakness; a lack of IP to make themselves relevant during combats that last longer than 3 rounds (this is about when IP runs out, if the player plays it smart).

Divine Metamagic is broken. Spell-to Power variant is broken. FoI is a fixer, like Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter.

[Vortling]

Tell that to the Truenamer, or CW Samurai! :smalltongue: It's not like there isn't a precedent for (virtually) useless class abilities.

Curmudgeon's reading of the ability is 100% accurate in my opinion - there really is no ambiguity to indicate otherwise in the wording.

But what's the point of forcing a useless ability on a class? Especially when fixing the ability is so simple that many people thought that was the way the ability worked in the first place.

To the OP: I second or third or whichever, allowing as sneak attack from cunning strike as a rogue of their level or possibly 1d6 of sneak attack per factotum level depending on how optimized the rest of the group is.

[Zaq]

:sigh:

FoI isn't broken. It's when you allow custom magic items that grant FoI and stack with each other and the feat itself that it breaks the game (it's easy to get around 30 or 40 IP if you allow that kind of item). FoI actually fixes the Factotum's main weakness; a lack of IP to make themselves relevant during combats that last longer than 3 rounds (this is about when IP runs out, if the player plays it smart).

Divine Metamagic is broken. Spell-to Power variant is broken. FoI is a fixer, like Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter.

I agree with you right up until 8th level. Extra standard actions are beyond insane, and once you get more than one or two FoIs going, well, let's use the passive voice and an implied indirect object and say the fan is hit.

[sofawall]

You can 10 feats at level 20. That's 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=55 extra inspiration points if you blow it all on FoI.

Just sayin'

[Sinfire Titan]

I agree with you right up until 8th level. Extra standard actions are beyond insane, and once you get more than one or two FoIs going, well, let's use the passive voice and an implied indirect object and say the fan is hit.

And? It isn't like Wizards can't get Celerity 12-20 times/day to match it, and they can do a lot more with that than a Factotum ever could. Don't say it's balanced by the Dazing or Immediate action cost either, as Daze immunity is one Limited Wish (Favor of the Martyr) or Expanded Spell Knowledge (Wyrm Wizard, Recaster, and a few others) away from being a class feature and Time Stop rapes the action economy hard.

Factotums can't do that, despite being able to nova each encounter (and trust me, that's easily countered via sheer numbers and a few tactical tricks of the trade). It's nigh impossible to kill a Wizard with Celerity+Time Stop active without resorting to other Level 1 Optimization tricks. Oh, and Wizards can get Arcane Fusion on their spell list through Recaster/Wyrm Wizard for over-Novas, so the Factotum's trick is just marginally more efficient.

Factotums also can't use their extra actions on other creature's turns, remember?


You can 10 feats at level 20. That's 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10=55 extra inspiration points if you blow it all on FoI.

Just sayin'

As nice as that is, I'd rather have 3 FoI and other useful feats. 6 IP is more than enough to get around with, and blowing all of your feats on FoI is rather difficult to do unless you time your Int progression perfectly.

[Zaq]

Using Celerity as a balance point is not something that I would generally consider to be a good idea. Just sayin'.

[Dark_Scary]

Using Celerity as a balance point is not something that I would generally consider to be a good idea. Just sayin'.

Not just Celerity, but Celerity with Daze immunity.

And Seriously, 12-20 times a day?

Level 10 Factotum has 55 inspiration, level 10 focused specialist Wizard using every single 4th and 5th level slot has 12 celerities per day (and pretty sure favored Martyr is level 4.)

Factotum can use 36 inspiration to have as many standard actions per encounter as the Wizard can all day, still have 19 inspiration for other things, and is way way more useful for those 13 standard actions in round 1 then the Wizard who blows all his level 3 and 2 spells (because he's a level 10 Wizard who gave up the ability to cast level 4 and 5 spells).

The FoI Factotum is better at action spam then a Wizard. Yes he totally is. Yes it takes, "a lot of work" IE less work then going into recaster or wyrm Wizard.

Yes, I'd rather have FoI for all my feats, because +int to hit an additional 5-6 times per encounter (IE all of them) is worth a feat. Because buying two extra actions and Int to hit and damage for both of them is worth a feat.

It's the first few times you take FoI that it sucks, Why you would take the FoIs that are worse then real feats, but then choose to not take the ones that are is beyond me.

[Curmudgeon]

FoI actually fixes the Factotum's main weakness; a lack of IP to make themselves relevant during combats that last longer than 3 rounds (this is about when IP runs out, if the player plays it smart). I think that weakness is supposed to be there. The Factotum was created as a dabbler. It's intended to be good as a short-term substitute for other roles, but not as good as a specialist in something like sneak attack.

FoI isn't broken. It's when you allow custom magic items that grant FoI and stack with each other and the feat itself that it breaks the game ... Divine Metamagic is broken. ... FoI is a fixer, like Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter. This seems inconsistent with your argument. The consistent position would be that Divine Metamagic is fine, and that Nightsticks are the problem. It's not the feat; it's items that supply the power to multiply that feat's effectiveness.

If Divine Metamagic is broken, then so is Font of Inspiration (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003634).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If Divine Metamagic is broken, then so is Font of Inspiration (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1003634).I don't personally think of DMM as broken. For example, Persistant spell requires 7 TU attempts per use, as well as 3 feats. Without massive abuse, that's not too powerful.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't personally think of DMM as broken. For example, Persistant spell requires 7 TU attempts per use, as well as 3 feats. Without massive abuse, that's not too powerful. I would agree with you. I also think Font of Inspiration is fine; it just doesn't affect the limitation of 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack specified for Cunning Strike. Even without more sneak attack dice that's still plenty of FoI power (if for nothing else than it enables repeated use of Cunning Surge).

There are plenty of feats like Swift Ambusher that have a 1d6 sneak attack minimum, and Cunning Strike will get you there so it's hardly "a total waste of print". You just miss out on things like Daring Outlaw that require 2d6 or more.

[Sinfire Titan]

Not just Celerity, but Celerity with Daze immunity.

And Seriously, 12-20 times a day?

Level 10 Factotum has 55 inspiration, level 10 focused specialist Wizard using every single 4th and 5th level slot has 12 celerities per day (and pretty sure favored Martyr is level 4.)

Factotum can use 36 inspiration to have as many standard actions per encounter as the Wizard can all day, still have 19 inspiration for other things, and is way way more useful for those 13 standard actions in round 1 then the Wizard who blows all his level 3 and 2 spells (because he's a level 10 Wizard who gave up the ability to cast level 4 and 5 spells).

The FoI Factotum is better at action spam then a Wizard. Yes he totally is. Yes it takes, "a lot of work" IE less work then going into recaster or wyrm Wizard.

Yes, I'd rather have FoI for all my feats, because +int to hit an additional 5-6 times per encounter (IE all of them) is worth a feat. Because buying two extra actions and Int to hit and damage for both of them is worth a feat.

It's the first few times you take FoI that it sucks, Why you would take the FoIs that are worse then real feats, but then choose to not take the ones that are is beyond me.

20th level Focused Specialist (Transmuter) Wizard with 2 rings of Wizadry (4th) has 12+Bonus spells (9 from rings+base spells, 3 from FS) for Celerity. Archmage can be used to get 2 Celerity SLAs per 5th level spell slot sacced (easily able to get 8 with 2 uses of High Arcana by saccing 5th and 7th level slots each time). That's 20+Bonus spells.

Time Stop (along with Recaster for 3 Sudden Maximizes and 1 Greater Rod of Extend) gets 10 full rounds of actions, a full minute of uninterrupted casting every use of Sudden Maximize and Extend. Celerity can then be spread out over these rounds for as long as Favor of the Martyr or other Daze immunity lasts to get double the Standard actions.

Arcane Fusion can allow for a 5th level slot to cast Celerity and any 1st level spell (very few are that good, but enough that it's a viable choice). Greater version for 2 uses of Celerity per casting. Daze Immunity=Nova potential without hindrance. Uncanny Forethought turns this into 10 possible uses of Greater AF.

Planar Shepard gets NI actions as long as Planar Bubble is active.

Hell, even the Psion is capable of taking extra turns in ways the Factotum could never exploit.

Factotum may be able to spam Standard actions every round, but he's nowhere near as effective at using all of them as either a Planar Shepard or a Wizard. He's got endurance, and nothing more. Gestalting Factotum for the FoI abuse is where he can start abusing the Action Economy. Factotums have nothing on full casters aside from endurance.

FoI isn't broken until the rest of the system is bent to accommodate his actions.

[FMArthur]

FoI is strong enough that no sane Factotum takes any other feat for any reason if FoI is included in a game. That's a key sign of something gone wrong; so what if it's not as powerful as the most powerful classes and combos in the game? Does that mean it's just fine?

[Thurbane]

But what's the point of forcing a useless ability on a class? Especially when fixing the ability is so simple that many people thought that was the way the ability worked in the first place.
Well that all depends on whether we are debating RAW, RAI, or end user "fixes" for the class.

In regards to FoI, IMHO it is a good idea in theory, as the Factotum is quite lacking in IP at higher levels, but having it add points exponentially was a bad idea.

Again, IMHO, if you play the Factotum with sneak attack only limited by number of IP, plus FoI as written, you might as well write the poor old Rogue a retirement cheque...

[Sinfire Titan]

FoI is strong enough that no sane Factotum takes any other feat for any reason if FoI is included in a game. That's a key sign of something gone wrong; so what if it's not as powerful as the most powerful classes and combos in the game? Does that mean it's just fine?

What? Over every feat, Factotums like having about 3-5 FoI max, any more than that is excessive and cuts into the build. It's unreasonable to have more than 3, and down right stupid if you take 7 or the full 10 as you are screwing yourself out of effective specialization (in a sense that you can easily overextend your choices and run out of options ridiculously fast).

The feat makes Factotums a bit more Multiclass friendly, but puts a huge upkeep on your Int if you plan on taking it more than 3 or 5 times. For some builds, this is an inexcusable version of over-extending.

If that feat is the only one you think is worth taking as a Factotum, then your personal opinion is really skewed. You are actually hurting a build by doing that, when you could be taking better options (such as Lockdown feats, or Obtain+Improved Familiar to double your skills and give you a combat companion, or Item Creation to extend your spellcasting abilities).

FoI is not an end-all, be-all feat for Factotums. It's a fixer, and overusing it can cripple your options. The Factotum of War is the one build I can think of that justifies taking it exclusively more than 5 times, as the Warblade's Bonus feats and maneuvers make up for the hyper-focus on a single class feature.

[Chronos]

Personally, I think the real problem here is Cunning Surge. Not only does any effect that grants extra actions (including Celerity and Time Stop) break the game, but Cunning Surge just doesn't fit with the rest of the Factotum class. The Factotum has three main themes: He's good at using skills, he uses his intelligence in varied ways, and he can dabble at things other classes do. Most of the class's abilities tie into two or all three of those themes, and all of them tie into at least one. Except for Cunning Surge, that is: No other class has an ability like it, it doesn't have anything to do with skills, and it isn't related to Intelligence at all.

[shadow_archmagi]

Personally, I think the real problem here is Cunning Surge. Not only does any effect that grants extra actions (including Celerity and Time Stop) break the game, but Cunning Surge just doesn't fit with the rest of the Factotum class. The Factotum has three main themes: He's good at using skills, he uses his intelligence in varied ways, and he can dabble at things other classes do. Most of the class's abilities tie into two or all three of those themes, and all of them tie into at least one. Except for Cunning Surge, that is: No other class has an ability like it, it doesn't have anything to do with skills, and it isn't related to Intelligence at all.

ONE OF THESE IS NOT THE SAME:

"I'm clever and so I shall use my genius to figure out the hydrodynamically most efficient breaststroke so I can swim across this river even though I'm not very strong!"

"I'm clever and so even though I don't actually know magic I can just do exactly what the wizard does and BAM!"

"I took an anatomy class once so I'll just hit you in the kidneys while you arn't looking and it'll hurt more!"

"I... I guess I'll use one hand to hold this shield, one hand to stab you, and um, because I'm smart, I'll stab you again?"

[Thurbane]

What? Over every feat, Factotums like having about 3-5 FoI max, any more than that is excessive and cuts into the build. It's unreasonable to have more than 3, and down right stupid if you take 7 or the full 10 as you are screwing yourself out of effective specialization (in a sense that you can easily overextend your choices and run out of options ridiculously fast).
Really? Just about every Factotum build and guidebook I've seen spends every feat as FoI...

[Vortling]

Well that all depends on whether we are debating RAW, RAI, or end user "fixes" for the class.

In regards to FoI, IMHO it is a good idea in theory, as the Factotum is quite lacking in IP at higher levels, but having it add points exponentially was a bad idea.

Again, IMHO, if you play the Factotum with sneak attack only limited by number of IP, plus FoI as written, you might as well write the poor old Rogue a retirement cheque...

I'm all for making a fix that fits the power level of the group. Unrestricted ip usage for the skill works best when the factotum is replacing the rogue and the rest of the group is playing smart. Otherwise it works better to let the factotum only us enough to match the rogue.

IMHO, the factotum is supposed to replace the rogue so we may just have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Sinfire Titan]

Really? Just about every Factotum build and guidebook I've seen spends every feat as FoI...

Dictum Mortum isn't finished with his yet, there's two sections that are missing (Feats and magic items). The Gleemax ones are outdated, and I've yet to see one here that actually knows what to put in the feats section. Here's a few, from the original Factotum Handbook creator:


Item Familiar
Craft Wonderous Item
Manyshot
Darkstalker
EWP: Gnome Quickrazor (note that this lets you use an Aptitude Meteor Hammer, if you want to trip a bit)
Mindsight (with a Mindbender dip)
Master of Poisons (for use with Minor Creation to get Black Lotus Poison by the bucketload... making the craft check is trivially easy, and if a dose is one ounce then you get roughly 996 doses per cubic foot of poison)
Imperious Command
Improved Trip

Then you get into Obtain Familiar, Adaptive Style (for Warblade/Swordsage dips), and a handful of others.

FoI is just the one you'll take most often (approximately 3-5 times, max, as I said). 3 times leaves room for utility feats, such as Darkstalker. Manyshot works wonderfully with the Cunning Surge ability, which is one reason to take the feat. And Obtain Familiar=A Cohort, but sooner.

[EldritchBlunder]

While the RAW of Cunning Strike is ambiguous the RAI has already been explained by Wizards.

"Yes, you can use multiple inspiration points to gain additional sneak attack damage."

From here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a

</RAW Debate>
</RAI Debate>
<"It Works Like This Because I Say So">

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