PDA

View Full Version : "You guys are overpowered."



Random NPC
2009-06-02, 01:49 PM
We just reached that point with our DM.

We are playing Red Hand of Doom with Gestalt. Our party consist of:

Me, a Grey Elf Rapid Summoning, Focused Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3//Archivist 6 (Enchantment, Abjuration and Evocation banned, abjuration covered from Archivist, tho)

The Beatstick, Human Warblade 6//Swordsage 6 and in love with them Tiger Claw and Desert Wind maneuvers.

The Scout, Human Ranger 5//Bard 5, and also a new player.


Yesterday we got a visit from the Red Hand, sending a Chimera, three warg riding goblins, one sorcerer, three hobgoblin archers and two hobgoblin swordsmen.

I was almost finished with my spells. We just came home from killing the green dragon at the bridge and I didn't rest nor did I prepare spells since I was partying due to our dragon kill. Then when I decided to go and get some rest, we got the fight.

Since our scout didn't come to this session we were short of a player. I only had 3 lesser orbs of sound, 1 web, 1 glitterdust, 2 dimensional steps, 1 displacement, 5 protection from evil (that I spent on us and the Sargent and two other townspeople), 1 Summon Monster III (Rapid Summoner :smallwink: ), 1 extra scroll of SM III and 1 cloud of bewilderment.

The warg riders ran away. I had the sorcerer pinned and about to die with my Huge Monstrous Centipede. The swordsmen died. The archers were webbed and with another monstrous centipede on their way (1 round left of life, tho). The Chimera was halfway killed, with the beatstick ready to do his awesome "I jump, you die" maneuvers. I still had my cloud of bewilderment, my displacement, my dimensional steps and all of the lesser orbs of sound.

The DM got fed up and threw the battle, saying we won.

I mean, I had some chance of dying and not killing the archers before they could kill me, but still, my AC was 20 at the moment. The chimera would've died easily, tho.

He says we plow through. I say he always has us on our toes.

The optimization level can be easily seen. I'm an min/maxer and borderline munchkin. The beatstick is not an optimizer, but he knows where power lies. The new guy has no clue on what kills. The DM says that I should have not dropped Evocation since it's really helpful and powerful, sometimes citing that Fireball here would've deal with the situation at hand.

The DM is learning from my tricks, tho. He likes what SM III has done and some of his casters do that tactic too since it works wonders with me (obviously that tactic should be known by all casters).

We talked with him. I said that he should open spell compendium more and tome of battle. That will even the playground for him. Another theory is that he doesn't like the fighting and prefers the RP part. I'm good role player, but I love more the strategy of fighting.

What say you? How can my DM fix us (or me)?

Nohwl
2009-06-02, 01:57 PM
make it not gestalt.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-02, 01:58 PM
So your DM runs a gestalt game and complains that the player characters are overpowered?

... I see.

Why would he run a gestalt game if he didn't want powerful PCs?

Random NPC
2009-06-02, 01:59 PM
So your DM runs a gestalt game and complains that the player characters are overpowered?

... I see.

Why would he run a gestalt game if he didn't want powerful PCs?

because we were only two players against an army?

Epinephrine
2009-06-02, 01:59 PM
make it not gestalt.

+1

We had to do this as well. That or give enemies max HP and gestalt the big baddies.

RTGoodman
2009-06-02, 02:00 PM
(1) He shouldn't have run a gestalt game if he didn't want powerful PCs; and (2) he shouldn't be running RHoD if he wants a RP-heavy campaign. Not that you can't roleplay during it, but really, it's a military-centric campaign that's all about killing monsters before they kill you.

EDIT: Also, he shouldn't allow ToB melee classes if he's gonna use normal, rather weak NPCs and enemies, and he DEFINITELY shouldn't be using the standard spells for casters if you're a gestalt Wizard//Archivist with access to various non-Core sources.

Twilight Jack
2009-06-02, 02:00 PM
So your DM runs a gestalt game and complains that the player characters are overpowered?

... I see.

Why would he run a gestalt game if he didn't want powerful PCs?

Yes, this.

Tsotha-lanti
2009-06-02, 02:03 PM
The DM decided to run gestalt and complains about overpowered characters?

Gee, I wonder who's to blame.

Of course a double caster won't actually run out of slots; that's the point. Your DM sounds very immature to get angry at "losing" to you. If that's his attitude, he should stop DMing.

There's nothing to fix, except maybe the DM's encounters and tactics, and only he can work on those.

Melamoto
2009-06-02, 02:20 PM
Ignoring all "Don't gestalt" posts, i'd recommend Gestalting some of the more powerful enemies, upping the general powers of the others (Adding an extra HD here or there, tossing around some spell resistance), and making the enemies use more advanced tactics and preparation.

Narmoth
2009-06-02, 02:20 PM
First of all, he has to remember to make his monsters gestalt as well
Secondly, he should focus more on story than hack and slash, since you will hack through most of what he can come up with (our groups combat's seldom last more than 2 rounds), or it's so high above cr that you'll have no chance at all.
Third, he should try to get tactical advantage on you, using concealment, buffing spells, invisibility, and charge then run-tactics to give you as much dmg as possible with you giving as little as possible back

Olo Demonsbane
2009-06-02, 02:25 PM
Show him Saph's and Kjones's journals, and their advice for upping the monsters therin. They had some pretty big, optimized parties and they know what they are talking about.

Eldariel
2009-06-02, 02:28 PM
He should tweak the monsters. Really, Red Hand of Doom has some tough fights, but the row men are pushovers; they certainly don't feel like soldiers. The Worg Riders are rather sorry, the Hobgoblin Regulars are...meh, and the Warcasters could use a small buff-up. Oh, and the Bladebearers, supposed "elite troops", could get beat up by friggin' regulars! They should honestly be Warblades, no question.

Red Hand of Doom isn't built for gestalt characters, so you'll be about two levels over the expected value. With 3 players, you could concievably drop the Gestalt, possibly picking up Leadership for the two more experienced players and bringing your Cohorts to bear to even out the numbers.


Also, the DM obviously needs to know the spells and feats at least from Core, and preferably few of the splats with most use. Proper spell selection through the PHB spells (tons of guides for this) and some knowledge of Spell Compendium spells goes a long way towards making things more challenging. And using Tome of Battle for elite warriors is definitely the way to go. And buffing Regiarix up to Young Adult too.

But especially the Red Hand army elements themselves need a buff. The army should be a friggin' army; it can't expect just the Dragons to do the whole job.

Eldrys
2009-06-02, 02:37 PM
I don't mean to sound stupid but, whats gestalt.

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-02, 02:41 PM
I don't mean to sound stupid but, whats gestalt.

2e multiclassing.

And if you don't know what that means, just click here and all shall be revealed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

Telonius
2009-06-02, 02:48 PM
... The DM says that I should have not dropped Evocation since it's really helpful and powerful, sometimes citing that Fireball here would've deal with the situation at hand.
...
What say you? How can my DM fix us (or me)?

He can start by reading this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002). Your DM is thinking of Wizards in the same way that the playtesters did. He's playing checkers when the rest of the table is playing chess. As long as he's thinking of his own tactics in those terms, he's going to keep being frustrated. In that sense, the problem lies as much with the DM as it does with the players (note that it probably won't be very helpful to point that out to him in those terms).

Quick and dirty fix: multiply the foes. Even Gestalt characters are limited by actions per round.

Tengu_temp
2009-06-02, 02:59 PM
The only problem here is that the third player might feel overshadowed. Does he? If he does, I suggest the other two help him polish his build - not powergame to the extreme, just show him some tricks that will make him more or less equal in power to the other two.

As for the DM, he should simply increase the challenge rating of all encounters - add more enemies, make enemies tougher...

Nerd-o-rama
2009-06-02, 03:19 PM
"Add more enemies" doesn't really work against a wizard, but adding 2-3 more class levels/4-6 more HD to everything (and making the boss-level enemies gestalt) probably will.

valadil
2009-06-02, 03:27 PM
If you guys are overpowered for your level, your GM should be throwing level +2 enemies at you. If you're still winning, he can just keep increasing their levels until he challenges you. He doesn't even need to powergame his enemies, just increase their level.

The danger in this approach is that he may get to a point where you are challenged, but the other PCs can't compete. In that case I suggest he either ask you to tone it down or give the other players some nicer loot to help bring them up to speed.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-02, 04:01 PM
First of all, tell him to forget everything he thinks he knows about spellcasters. Whenever he's going to use opponents with spells, he should limit their spell choices to what spells your character uses until he figures out what's good. For example, if he'd given that Sorcerer a 0- or 1st- level spell of every school, Dispel Magic, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, and the PH2 Rapid Metamagic variant, you character would have been completely locked down until you could get out of LoS/LoE to him. What he probably did was give the Sorcerer nothing but Evocations and played him like a magical archer. If that's what he wants to do, just replace it with a Warlock and give him Eldritch Spear and Beshadowed Blast with Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast.

A Chimera can use its breath weapon on a full attack in place of the dragon head's bite. I'd replace Alertness and Hover with Improved Toughness and Improved Flight, though its other feat choices aren't too horrible. The entire encounter probably rushed in all from the same direction, whereas the Chimera should have circled around and flown in behind you guys.

The Worg riders should have had 1-2 Fighter levels, with Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and maybe Spirited Charge. They probably charged once and didn't move afterward until they ran away, when they should have focused on hit-and-run tactics. The rider and the mount can both attack on a charge, so the Worg could bite and possibly trip at the same time as the rider attacks.

It looks like your DM is making some very poor strategic choices, which can make even the weakest party look overpowered. The problem here is not the power of your characters, but the weak tactics of your DM. He probably prefers RP more because he's good at that and poor at combat. Making your characters weaker won't solve anything, since it's your superior strategy that's making his monsters look powerless. The only real solution is for your DM to either realize this and accept it, or to learn better tactics.

Dark_Scary
2009-06-02, 05:05 PM
First of all, tell him to forget everything he thinks he knows about spellcasters. Whenever he's going to use opponents with spells, he should limit their spell choices to what spells your character uses until he figures out what's good. For example, if he'd given that Sorcerer a 0- or 1st- level spell of every school, Dispel Magic, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, and the PH2 Rapid Metamagic variant, you character would have been completely locked down until you could get out of LoS/LoE to him. What he probably did was give the Sorcerer nothing but Evocations and played him like a magical archer. If that's what he wants to do, just replace it with a Warlock and give him Eldritch Spear and Beshadowed Blast with Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast.

This isn't actually all that good a counterspeller. I'd rather have evocation sorcerer for a counterspell.

A CL 6 Magic Missile does average ten damage for a DC 20 concentration check. A completely unoptimized fireball does 21 damage or 10, for DC 31 and DC 20 Concentration checks, and hits other people (better then using a spell to counterspell).

And what do you get?

Well, if they have a dwarf with 16 con, they have a +12 modifier, so on average less likely to make a concentration check then you are to dispel.

Optimize damage even a little bit, and there is no chance. And if you prepare your ready action correctly, you can even fireball if they don't cast.

Anyone using actual standard actions to ready a counterspell is wasting their actions.

Faleldir
2009-06-02, 05:12 PM
What would happen if all the monsters were gestalt as well?

Eldariel
2009-06-02, 05:16 PM
Anyone using actual standard actions to ready a counterspell is wasting their actions.

This is true only when you know exactly what you're up against. What if they've got Contingent Energy Resistance? Your Fireball just did...no damage. Hell, simple Wings of Cover achieves the same goal. What about if they happen to have Lesser Spell Mantle or Shield or some such up? Your Magic Missile just wasted an action.

Dispel Magic is always going to function. Protecting yourself against damage is very possible and indeed, when up against a caster, chances are not all your damage spells are going to function properly. If your role in the battle is just to shut down the opposing caster and you happen to have Arcane Mastery, Elven Spell Lore, Improved Counterspell or any such, preparing that counterspell action might just be worth it (although Improved Counterspell can be rather wasted as it's only goot in a very specific situation).

warmachine
2009-06-02, 05:30 PM
Gestalt messes up the maths, making balance and campaign design harder. WotC should put a disclaimer on those rules: "We've thrown these out in the wild without support and if you use them, you're on your own!"

Recreate the entire party from 6th level. Spells start getting interesting but not stupidly powerful.

Dark_Scary
2009-06-02, 06:20 PM
This is true only when you know exactly what you're up against. What if they've got Contingent Energy Resistance? Your Fireball just did...no damage. Hell, simple Wings of Cover achieves the same goal. What about if they happen to have Lesser Spell Mantle or Shield or some such up? Your Magic Missile just wasted an action.

Dispel Magic is always going to function. Protecting yourself against damage is very possible and indeed, when up against a caster, chances are not all your damage spells are going to function properly. If your role in the battle is just to shut down the opposing caster and you happen to have Arcane Mastery, Elven Spell Lore, Improved Counterspell or any such, preparing that counterspell action might just be worth it (although Improved Counterspell can be rather wasted as it's only goot in a very specific situation).

Wings of Cover prevents counterspelling as well as it does damage, and if they have contingent energy resistance at level freaking 6 you can just go die.

If on the other hand they have shield up, you know they have shield up.

At higher levels, dispel optimization can be somewhat useful sometimes. But the same level of optimization gives you Searing Spelled evocations that do damage no matter what.

The only reason dispel is ever worth it is if it doesn't take your standard action, IE battlemagic perception/duelward/divine defiance.

Eldariel
2009-06-02, 06:45 PM
The only reason dispel is ever worth it is if it doesn't take your standard action, IE battlemagic perception/duelward/divine defiance.

Yes, this is true most of the time, but it's not a blanket truth; the option exists and sometimes when damage just cannot be reliably accomplished and the best way to ensure victory is for you to lock that caster out, it can be beneficial to ready the counterspell action even if you're not focused.

Rare? Sure. Saying it's never worth it is a bit of a stretch though.

Waspinator
2009-06-02, 07:18 PM
To mirror what everyone else is saying, of course you wind up being overpowered. Gestalt can be not much better than standard characters or a LOT better depending on how much you optimize your choices. And if you're fighting off-the-shelf non-gestalt enemies? What else would happen?

And looking at your party, it's no surprise that there is a gap. Someone with two full casting classes is going to wind up being a lot better than those other two you have. In gestalt, you probably should be taking a full caster on at least one of the halves. Going Psion/Warblade would be much better than Swordsage/Warblade. The second can't do that much more than a straight Warblade since he's still limited in how many maneuvers he can effectively use at once due to most things both classes do requiring a standard action during a fight. The first would be able to self-buff with the Psion powers before combat and then trash things with his Warblade maneuvers during the fight.

For the Ranger/Bard guy, I wouldn't have done Bard. Any full caster (Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion, whatever) would've been a much better choice.

Leon
2009-06-02, 10:53 PM
For the Ranger/Bard guy, I wouldn't have done Bard. Any full caster (Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Psion, whatever) would've been a much better choice.

Your not him so it doesn't matter, his choice and if it works for him then it works

AslanCross
2009-06-02, 11:30 PM
Echoing what Eldariel said. There are some encounters that are pretty nasty out of the box, but there are some that are pretty darn lame for what they're meant to be. I ran the same Goblin Raid encounter with some generous modifications (ultimately reached the same encounter levels, however), and the PCs got their glutes handed to them.

What's been said so far is pretty much what I feel about this: I prefer to have people handle multiple PCs instead of letting them do gestalt.

Deliverance
2009-06-03, 07:21 AM
What say you? How can my DM fix us (or me)?
Retroactively, I have no idea?

His first big mistake was probably not to limit your access to classes/feats/spells to a few handbooks he found acceptable or ruling on each individual class pick.

Giving an optimizer access to whatever he wants to in gestalt play is just asking for a painful GM experience - unless the GM too is an optimizer who'll enjoy spending his free time on gestalt-optimizing the entire adventure, which on the other hand would be no fun for the players who don't optimize their classes.

I mean, Rapid Summoning, Focused Specialist Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 3//Archivist 6 with access to whatever you can dig up? REALLY? Who thought that would be a good idea (apart from yourself :smalltongue:).*


* Actually, I'd love to rule out such a class combination simply on the grounds of "those goals don't seem to match at all" - it is one line of advancement dedicated to a character who is a truly focused specialist disdaining all but his specialty coupled with a line of advancement for a true generalist. I'm not sure it is suited for anybody without a split mind. That's only from a roleplaying point of view, of course - mechanically it is an awesome combination. :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2009-06-03, 07:37 AM
* Actually, I'd love to rule out such a class combination simply on the grounds of "those goals don't seem to match at all" - it is one line of advancement dedicated to a character who is a truly focused specialist disdaining all but his specialty coupled with a line of advancement for a true generalist. I'm not sure it is suited for anybody without a split mind. That's only from a roleplaying point of view, of course - mechanically it is an awesome combination. :smallsmile:

I'd like to point out that basically every Gestalt-combination ever is like that. Fighter/Barbarian? Disciplined warrior trained in the art of combat...who flies into battle frenzy and forgets all about that discipline whenever actually fighting!

Or Wizard/Cleric: An arcane caster who just somehow manages to sneak up to his god and steal an allotment of spells daily while doing his arcane studies and acquiring spellpower from a totally different source.


Really, I don't see any roleplaying problems in FS/Archivist unless you go überstickler over some specific flavours for both classes. His arcane studies just happen to be focused on Conjuration because that's where his interests lie; when he studies divine items, he studies everything as to best support his arcane Conjuration-focus.

For what it's worth, Wizard/Archivist is one of the least ridiculous combinations for Gestalt simply because of how similar the classes' means of advancing are.


It seems like the real problem is that the characters are Gestalt, not that they're overpowered due to multiclassing or any such.

Talya
2009-06-03, 08:24 AM
Gestalt.



Isn't overpowered sorta the point of Gestalt?

Yuki Akuma
2009-06-03, 10:07 AM
Or Wizard/Cleric: An arcane caster who just somehow manages to sneak up to his god and steal an allotment of spells daily while doing his arcane studies and acquiring spellpower from a totally different source.

...Cleric of Boccob?

Another_Poet
2009-06-03, 10:18 AM
I say if you are able to walk through Red Hand of Doom with a 3-person party your DM should stand up and applaud. Evem if you are gestalt.

If you're able to walk through a surprise attack while the party is sleeping after using most of your resources on a fight with a dragon, however, the DM should take stock of his own tactics and tools. He is doing something wrong.

He authorised a high level of power by breaking out gestalt, but in my opinion that is easily neutralised by having a small party. So if it's a cakewalk he needas to look at things like giving his own gobbos better battlefield control tactics.

For instance, if the goblin sorcerer had 2-3 apprentices. All 1st level, but all under an invisibility spell. So while you guys are targeting the main sorcerer and his chimera, the three apprentices each shake their wands of (in order): Web, Fireball, Web. The first web overlaps with the fireball, increasing fire damage to all involved, and the second web meets up with the remains of the first one to make a huge PC death zone.

Of course, all three apprentices will have held action so they can act one after another.

This kind of stuff will change a batle from "let's see who my summoned monsters will eat first" to "OMG, summoned monsters, get me out of heeeeere!"

You guys have builds that give a lot of options and a lot of resources. The enemies better have that too. Statting out gobklins with lots of class levels and manoeuvres is a pain, but he doesn't have to. If he just gives some interesting abilities to low-level scrubs 0- and then actually use them - it will change everything.

ap

Starbuck_II
2009-06-03, 10:34 AM
For instance, if the goblin sorcerer had 2-3 apprentices. All 1st level, but all under an invisibility spell. So while you guys are targeting the main sorcerer and his chimera, the three apprentices each shake their wands of (in order): Web, Fireball, Web. The first web overlaps with the fireball, increasing fire damage to all involved, and the second web meets up with the remains of the first one to make a huge PC death zone.

Web requires pillars/walls to suppport it. Fireball cancels invisbility.

Random NPC
2009-06-03, 01:33 PM
* Actually, I'd love to rule out such a class combination simply on the grounds of "those goals don't seem to match at all" - it is one line of advancement dedicated to a character who is a truly focused specialist disdaining all but his specialty coupled with a line of advancement for a true generalist. I'm not sure it is suited for anybody without a split mind. That's only from a roleplaying point of view, of course - mechanically it is an awesome combination. :smallsmile:

The mechanics of this is indeed, awesome. His Arcane side is indeed focused to summoning. But the Divine side is due to being a priest of Boccob. All of his spells on the Archivist side are actually all Cleric spells (from PHB :smalltongue: ). He has only introduced himself as "Therion, the Summoner" but he's in fact more than that.

Dark_Scary
2009-06-03, 02:01 PM
Web requires pillars/walls to suppport it. Fireball cancels invisbility.

Web also cancels invisibility.

Prock
2009-06-03, 03:17 PM
HAHAHAHAHA
I hate you random :smalltongue:
For those wondering I am the crappy DM in question.
Yes, this is the first campaing I DM and all the comments are welcomed.
Tho I do tend to concentrate on the rp aspect of stuff, but Ill work more on the battles.