Paladins

[Ouranos]

So, I've been browsing this forum and afew other homebrew areas, why do so few people touch paladin or ranger? Everything is off supplement books or based on casters. Are melee that much weaker in the power-gaming area that noone wants to play one?

Anyway, I was hoping to find some awesome builds for a melee general use paladin. I've always built mine sword/shield with a bastard sword, and usually took kensai as prestige class or took levels of fighter if it was in a setting or with a DM that allowed that. Anything would be appreciated.

Also, been trying to find a really good character portrait for a LONGASS time for the paladin I play, and I never have found one I liked. if any of you are artists pm me and I'll give you his descrip and we'll see what we have.

[Xefas]

You're going to find more Paladin class-fixes than actual builds using the official Paladin class.

Most will probably use the Paladin 2.0 from the Tome of Battle.

[Mando Knight]

So, I've been browsing this forum and afew other homebrew areas, why do so few people touch paladin or ranger? Everything is off supplement books or based on casters. Are melee that much weaker in the power-gaming area that noone wants to play one?

Anyway, I was hoping to find some awesome builds for a melee general use paladin. I've always built mine sword/shield with a bastard sword, and usually took kensai as prestige class or took levels of fighter if it was in a setting or with a DM that allowed that. Anything would be appreciated.

Also, been trying to find a really good character portrait for a LONGASS time for the paladin I play, and I never have found one I liked. if any of you are artists pm me and I'll give you his descrip and we'll see what we have.

This doesn't really go in Homebrew... that would be if you were discussing Fax Celestis's How-It-Should-Be Paladin.

Anyway, yes. Full BAB classes are that weak compared to Casters, who can prepare spells that shut down enemies altogether or allow them to cast spells and fight alongside the Fighter. Sword'n'Board is actually even weaker, as you can't Power Attack for a 2:1 exchange, nor are you Uber-Charging on your mount with a lance for excessive damage multipliers...

[Mr.Moron]

Are melee that much weaker in the power-gaming area that noone wants to play one?.

Yes.

Like the others have said though, that's not really a homebrew question.

However if you like the whole paladin thing, just play a cleric with a big stick. Clerics are strictly better paladins than paladins, as odd that might sound at first.

[Ouranos]

I never did like counting on spells though. Maybe I should look into a no-spell pally that's abit better in melee or just the opposite, a paladin with lowered BAB and more spells that's not quite as castery as cleric. Well, time to make my own paladin.

My source access is abit limited at the moment, any classes ya'll know of with halfway spell casting, like maybe 6th or 7th level spell max? I'd like to keep weapon/armor selection the same, nix maybe the mount and remove disease and lower BAB to 15/10/5 at 20, and then add in spells either to 7th level max or 9th if it's balanced. Thoughts or input?

[Mr.Moron]

I never did like counting on spells though. Maybe I should look into a no-spell pally that's abit better in melee

The Crusader class from 'Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" meets this description. It may be worth checking out. However, it should be noted it has "Manuevers" to keep track of rather than spells.

However it has very a fun set of abilties, from attacks that let you heal your allies, to imposing penalties on opponents that don't attack you.



or just the opposite, a paladin with lowered BAB and more spells that's not quite as castery as cleric. Well, time to make my own paladin.

My source access is abit limited at the moment, any classes ya'll know of with halfway spell casting, like maybe 6th or 7th level spell max? I'd like to keep weapon/armor selection the same, nix maybe the mount and remove disease and lower BAB to 15/10/5 at 20, and then add in spells either to 7th level max or 9th if it's balanced. Thoughts or input?

What you've described here is a Cleric {if it has 9th level spells}, or something else strictly worse than cleric* if it caps at 6th or 7th. If it's spells & spell tracking you want to avoid, just hacking a bunch of class features and upping the casting doesn't sound like a way to achieve what you want.



*This is not strictly a bad thing. It simply means there would be no [mechanical] reason to take the class, when cleric could do everything it does, +(tons more).If you were playing a game where clerics didn't exist, something like that could probably find a role to fill in a game. A game where clerics don't exist, is not a horrible one.

[Ouranos]

Well, was considering the larger hit die, lay on hands, and so forth among paladin features. Yes it would lose some attack bonus but gain in spell ability. And it wasn't tracking of spells that got to me, it was what happens when you run out of spells per day that gets me. Most campaigns I've been in have had casters quickly whacking things with sticks due to the DM's I've always had being fond of areas with no chance for rest and recovery of spells. I like the self-sufficiency of the regular paladin, but not the (I feel) severe limit on overall progression due to afew abilities that JUST scale and not offer anything new, like remove disease and the mount.

[Xefas]

Well, was considering the larger hit die, lay on hands, and so forth among paladin features. Yes it would lose some attack bonus but gain in spell ability. And it wasn't tracking of spells that got to me, it was what happens when you run out of spells per day that gets me. Most campaigns I've been in have had casters quickly whacking things with sticks due to the DM's I've always had being fond of areas with no chance for rest and recovery of spells. I like the self-sufficiency of the regular paladin, but not the (I feel) severe limit on overall progression due to afew abilities that JUST scale and not offer anything new, like remove disease and the mount.

The Tome of Battle was made for you.

The Crusader class is basically a Paladin with mutable fluff (you can play him as the pure Lawful Good with a Code of Conduct Paladin if you'd like, or you can choose not to, it's your call as a roleplayer), same hit die and proficiencies, more skills, and Maneuvers which scale like spells, but are weaker to make up for the fact that you get them per encounter instead of per day.

It's the not-suck no-spell Paladin.

[Ouranos]

That does sound cool. I have several pdf's of books, but tome of battle is one of the many I'm missing. And the local bookstores have no more 3.5 material >.< Anyone have it as a scan? Or are we talking Book of 9 Swords because a friend of mine has that one.

[Xefas]

Or are we talking Book of 9 Swords because a friend of mine has that one.

Yes, the full title is "The Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords".

[Ouranos]

yeah, readin it now. Complicated, but has alot of potential for what I want. I might work up a variant of my own based on cusader, not sure yet.

[ErrantX]

What I've done in the past with Paladins and Crusaders, is I've stripped out the Mount and swapped a few things around. In my current game, I use these rules with the tome of battle, but scroll down in the document file to see where I've placed my Paladin-Crusader hybrid class. I personally dislike the Crusader's class features, but I love their maneuvers. Paladin has great flavor, but not real substance. Combined, they're amazing. Check it out here (http://www.revamprpg.com/download/file.php?id=28).

I also made a more caster oriented prestige class for my paladin-crusader class that mixes cleric into it, called Ecclesiastic Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5723512). Check that out as well!

-X

[timothyx]

I do two things with Paladins in my game...

1) Paladins are Lawful... that's the pre-req... good/nuetral/evil, everything else is the same.. except the Evil ones can choose to "lay on painful hands" instead, but it's something they have to choose as they begin play..

Also, if a paladin "falls", as it were, there is no Blackgaurd prc, they have to "atone" and then they get all their special abilities back, However, they can no longer progress as a Paladin, but they still qualify for other Prcs and simply become "Fallen Paladins" of whatever level they were before.. Personally I think this is the easiest solution. It gives a broader ability to play out conflicts in general, and allows for the greatest Flexibility.

I did it mostly because I've met only 3 or 4 people in 20 years of gaming that actually pulled off "lawful good" as a Paladin, most people simply play it "Lawful Stupid", or "Lawful I get to commit Genocide because "x" Race is evil"... Generally, Only NPC's are Lawful good in my games...


2) Dragon 310 has Alternate rules for Paladins, and I really quite like their flavoring. It's quite good, well thought through, and you can make changes to them with just a little bit of wiggle room.

[Ouranos]

Most choices for a paladin that is played correctly need to bear great weight on him. last gmae I played in we were in a crypt FULL of bodies being used by necromancers. And it wasn't the first time it had happened. So he actually to the time to think, sighed, and opted to burn the thing down to protect people. Thousands of corpses and the traditional burial crypt (it was HUGE and made by elves out of trees, it burned quite well) destroyed because it was right. MAN did the druid we had in the party hate him for it too :)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As a paladin fanboy, I have to admit I share a modicum of your frustration. If you want to optimize, a paladin is not the way to go. That said, it doesn't make the paladin BAD, just suboptimal. If you have fun playing the paladin archetype, who cares if you're optimized or not?

[Ouranos]

Well, Like I said, there have always been afew things that I thought were sucking the strengths out of a paladin, like the mount. I mean in most cases, the mount won't do you any good on a real encounter. Like the afore-mentioned crypt, what good is a horse inside a building. Remove disease also seems rather sad when compared to spells that can do the same, or even just buying potions. Things that could be removed in favor of more versatility. I do like the hybrid made Errant btw.

[ErrantX]

Well, Like I said, there have always been afew things that I thought were sucking the strengths out of a paladin, like the mount. I mean in most cases, the mount won't do you any good on a real encounter. Like the afore-mentioned crypt, what good is a horse inside a building. Remove disease also seems rather sad when compared to spells that can do the same, or even just buying potions. Things that could be removed in favor of more versatility. I do like the hybrid made Errant btw.

I 110% agree. I allow my Paladin-Crusaders to take a special mount as a feat based on their class level if they want to go that road. And thanks! I've been debating putting it up on the board.

-X

[Ouranos]

It's good. It's balanced, it's functional, has the strengths of both with alot fewer weaknesses.

[Ouranos]

Anyone else have anything? Because I think my next "paladin" will be that hybrid unless anyone has a cooler version.