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Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 01:35 AM
How can you beat a druid when they can wild shape, cast really powerful spells, and lets not forget about that bloody animal companion?

PId6
2009-06-03, 01:38 AM
Higher level druid. :smallbiggrin:

Starscream
2009-06-03, 01:40 AM
Throw a stick and recite the magical incantation "Whosagoodboyden?"

Crazy Scot
2009-06-03, 01:48 AM
A wizard with careful spell selection?

Leon
2009-06-03, 01:48 AM
a rolled up news paper and a firm commanding voice

sofawall
2009-06-03, 01:49 AM
This question is why the Druid (and cleric, for much the same reasons) are considered to be, overall, the most powerful classes in D&D. Sure, Weezard has all his Time Stop and whatnot, but Clerics can get it through domains, and Druids just don't care. They turn into a bear and rip your face off.

Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 01:49 AM
So am i right in saying at eighth level druids are the best class for pvp? But i don't see how a druid is the only answer to a druid.

Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 01:50 AM
This question is why the Druid (and cleric, for much the same reasons) are considered to be, overall, the most powerful classes in D&D. Sure, Weezard has all his Time Stop and whatnot, but Clerics can get it through domains, and Druids just don't care. They turn into a bear and rip your face off.

Acutally its for a Pvp. I say they can be beaten but by any .. hpmh .. martial class?

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:04 AM
A martial gish build like Ruby Shadow can probably handle a druid. But that's not a class anymore. That's a beautiful monster.

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-03, 02:05 AM
Acutally its for a Pvp. I say they can be beaten but by any .. hpmh .. martial class?

You're going to have to be more specific on what 'martial class' means.

Frosty
2009-06-03, 02:07 AM
Hmm...get yourself a ring of Freedom of Movement, and build an Ubercharger who also tries to pimp out Initiative?

Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 02:08 AM
You're going to have to be more specific on what 'martial class' means.

Well i mean can a martial class beat a druid martial class being a rouge or ranger? I just want to beat this powerful druid that is in our pvp i saw what he can do today and i don't know if he can even be beaten in straight combat.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:09 AM
Oh yes, play a rogue or a ranger, and ignore every bit of advice we've offered up.

:: tiredly rolls eyes ::

chiasaur11
2009-06-03, 02:10 AM
Well, there's always...

Pun Pun.

But really, you pull that, even arena fights fall apart. It's bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

No, scratch that. It's bringing a nuke to a poker tournament. Technically, you can claim victory on a technicality, but no one is a winner.

Ridureyu
2009-06-03, 02:10 AM
Pray really hard to Thor.

Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 02:12 AM
Well, there's always...

Pun Pun.

But really, you pull that, even arena fights fall apart. It's bringing a nuke to a knife fight.

No, scratch that. It's bringing a nuke to a poker tournament. Technically, you can claim victory on a technicality, but no one is a winner.

Sorry, Pun Pun?

Tempest Fennac
2009-06-03, 02:16 AM
What do Ruby Shadows do? Pun Pun is a Kobold Commoner who became a diety who could do anything using a Candle on Invocation and a particular SLA from the summoned creature. In a PvP game, would Tome of Battle classes be able to hold their own against a Druid if there wasn't a companion?

Mindleshank
2009-06-03, 02:18 AM
What about poison?

mostlyharmful
2009-06-03, 02:21 AM
Druid's immune from level 9.

If you want a rogue you could try UMD with a basic wizard set of tactics, resilient sphere to seperate him from AC, knobble AC then hide and snipe or ray of exhaustion/ray of exhaustion/ray of enfeeblement hilarity.

Aquillion
2009-06-03, 02:40 AM
We'll need more details about the druid, the situation you're talking about facing them in, what exactly you mean by "beating" them, and so on.

But in general, druids are probably the hardest class to beat reliably, absent the really absurdly-optimized wizards who know you're coming before you decided you were etc etc.

The problem with druids is that they just have so many powerful abilities. Their spellcasting isn't as powerful as a wizard's, but it is still very versatile and has most of the most important things in it. Then they can also Wild Shape and fight you in melee, and they have an animal companion that is going to be wailing on you the whole time you fight them unless you have a way to deal with it... which is a particularly big advantage in 1v1 pvp fights, since it means they get more out of buffs and save-or-sucks than other casting classes. Which, incidentally, is what their spell list is focused on (that, and summoning even more things.)

On top of all this, they have armor and d8 hps, so you can't reliably beat them fast even if you manage to get them with their pants down; they have 3/4 BAB, so they can do all right in a grapple and such even if you catch them outside of Wild Shape (and can slaughter just about anyone when they are in Wild Shape -- and unlike casting, you can't prevent them from wild shaping with a grapple), and they have a bunch of other, less important class features on top of this. (Like the above post about poison shows.)

Can they be beaten? Sure. But how you do it depends heavily on the situation and what abilities you want to use yourself -- you can't just make a "druid-killer" build the way some people try to make a "wizard-killer" build (with varying success even there.) Druid abilities are too broad to make one reliable "druid-killing" formula.

What you want to do depends heavily on the strategy the druid is using. But there are still some things you will always want to have against a druid...

One thing worth pointing out is Protection from Evil or Protection from Good. Note that either of those will protect you from neutral summons that use natural attacks (which are the nastiest things they can summon.) Very important against a summoning druid. It won't save you from their animal companion or their own Wild Shaped self, or when they summon things that use SLAs or ranged attacks (and yes, there are some things like that on the SNA list), but it's a start, and it's nice to shut down at least part of the druid's strategy with one low-level spell. You can get potions of these if you're not a caster.

Also, Freedom of Movement, either through the spell or a ring. This will save you if the druid decides to go for a grapple, and blocks several nasty spells as well.

If we're talking really high-level fights, and you're a high-level wizard, Disjunction is always nice for removing their buffs. Druids are probably one of the classes least affected by Disjunction -- since it only ends magical effects as Dispel Magic does, it doesn't remove summons or end wild shape. Druids are also much less dependent on gear than other classes. And, of course, it doesn't make their animal companion vanish (although it might make it suck when all its bonuses and items disappear.) Either way, though, being disjoined still hurts them badly.

ghost_warlock
2009-06-03, 02:43 AM
Mebbe an egoist with metamorphosis, fission, a psicrystal, and the Metamorphic Transfer feat. Fighting fire with napalm.

Oh, and being able to fly usually negates an animal companion.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:46 AM
The ruby shadow is a tier 1.5 CO build by wolfie-kun. Link incoming (http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9947791).

It's really only inferior to some of the hardcore CO stuff that borders on TO. I mean, I wouldn't go after PXY's stuff with it, or try to face down a real TO build, but it can break face like little else.

Here is my take. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1164534)

If you play a ruby reaver, I'd love to hear about it. They never really got taken out and about, which made me really sad, frankly.

Salt_Crow
2009-06-03, 02:49 AM
If you could somehow get Antimagic Field around you (hopefully without affecting you) then it'd be a fair game really. No wild shape, no buffs and no offensive spells (unless instantaneous conjuration)- bane of all spellcasters ;)

AMF can be gotten with an item (I think there's an item granting AMF 1/day) or by hiring a caster to cast it for you (probably making you immune to that AMF by one of various methods).


Edit: Once you've got AMF around and close into melee with the druid then you should be fine. If you can't win with the even playing field, you'd probably need a better build XD

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 02:55 AM
Like a... oh **** it.

JellyPooga
2009-06-03, 02:55 AM
Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.

Aquillion
2009-06-03, 03:07 AM
Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.Well, we have to ask how optimized the druid is, first. Staying in wild shape all the time is not totally unheard of (it's far more common than most of the strategies that are taken for granted in an 'optimized wizard' build, say.)

But even aside from that, 1-hit KOing a druid is hard. Their animal companion is going to be with them most of the time. They still have d8 hp and armor... and you can't prevent them from wild shaping, short of trapping them in an AMF (and then you still have their companion to deal with, while trying to keep the druid from leaving the field.)

On top of this, sneaking up on a druid is not so easy. Many animal companions have both scent and high spot/listen checks. And druids tend to have high wis, and have spot and listen as class abilities (plus 4 skill points per level), and, when wild shaped, may have both scent and natural bonuses to spot and listen. You have to pass the spot and listen checks of both the druid and their animal companion, and hope/ensure that neither can scent you. Not so easy.

A strength drain ambush might work if the druid isn't wild shaped all the time, though, since many druids dump strength on account of it not mattering when you're wild shaped (of course, the druids who do that are also the ones most likely to be wild shaped all the time...) But you'd have to get the druid in one turn, generally, or they can just wild shape into something really strong or something that flies or whatever, and you're screwed.

Also, druids can cast Death Ward, and it's a pretty popular spell given the range of extremely nasty stuff it protects against. So if they get a chance to act, they'll probably cast that.

olentu
2009-06-03, 03:10 AM
Would an assassin-build work against a Druid? Not literally the Assassin PrC, but a build that focuses of stealth and the 1-hit-kill. As far as I can reckon, it's easier to hide and sneak than it is to detect and all the nifty spells and wild shapes and summoned allies can't protect you from something you can't see coming.

I'd imagine a Shadow Dancer build might work well if you can pump the Shadow Companion somehow...have it hide in the floor and Strength Drain the Druid to death.

Well the shadow trick can be beaten if the druid happens to have sheltered vitality prepared.

Also I think the druid gets a spell that gives 60 foot blindsight if not possibly a wildshape form so one would need darkstalker and depending on the druid they might get mindsight.

So it would really depend on the spells the druid has prepared.

Ravens_cry
2009-06-03, 03:19 AM
Sorry, Pun Pun?
The Uber Build, The Breaker, That Which Shalt Not Be Done, The God of Cheese, (and Everything else) Ultimate One, The Monster of RAW, Munchkin Special, The Reason God Made DM's, Chuck Norris Bane, and Mr. Rogers's Nightmare.
His Power is Infinite, His Reach More So.
Read on Here, Young Acolyte And Tremble at His Might (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-03, 03:25 AM
At level 8, a Pixie Warlock with Flyby Attack could give a Druid a run for his money.


Human Wizard 8, Fighter bonus feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) (UA), Necromancy specialist, Skeletal Minion variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants) (UA). Improved Initiative (W1), Split Ray (CA) (H), Sanctum Spell (CA) (1), Ocular Spell (LoM) (3), Weapon Focus: Ray (W5), Arcane Thesis: Enervation (6) (take it at 6th for a 3rd level spell and retrain it to enervation at 7th if necessary). Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize, Ring of Sustenance.

Prior to combat, cast two Ocular (+2) Sanctum (+0) Maximized (+0) Split (+2) Enervations (4th), it goes up to 8th and Arcane Thesis reduces it back to 4th for four metamagic feats. Since it's cast outside your sanctum, it gets reverse-Heightened by one level to a 3rd level spell, thus qualifying it for use with a Lesser Metamagic Rod. After setting that up rest for two hours and prepare your spells.

Use Nerveskitter for an additional +5 initiative, first round spend a full-round action to release your rays. You shoot four rays, which may target the same or separate creatures within 30 feet of each other. Each ray deals four negative levels, so two will one-shot an 8th level character; two more should one-shot an animal companion. Your skeletal minion can get in the way (after you fire the rays) so any survivors can't charge you, give it a tower shield and have it use total cover. Second round cast a Sanctum, Split, Maximized Enervation at anything that survived.

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:27 AM
I myself am a proponent of the Neo-Terminators as the ultimate build, but Pun-Pun gets serious props. Monty, Pun-Pun's grown-up cousin, is even cooler.

Please, please, please at least read the ruby shadow build if you read nothing else I link to for the next month and a half.

Killer Angel
2009-06-03, 03:28 AM
Well i mean can a martial class beat a druid martial class being a rouge or ranger?

So, we are discussing Druid Vs a "martial" class, in Core only (Rogue and ranger, or also barbarian and fighters)?
What power level are you thinking? a 5th lev. druid's options are different from a 18th one...

Brock Samson
2009-06-03, 03:30 AM
Won't their Death Ward protect them from enervation though?

Doc Roc
2009-06-03, 03:34 AM
Depends on if it's prepared, arcing back to olentu's excellent points.

Salt_Crow
2009-06-03, 03:41 AM
If it was an arena setting where everyone knew a bit about what they'd be fighting against and had some time to buff up, I'd say DW is one of the top priorities for any druids.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-03, 03:45 AM
Won't their Death Ward protect them from enervation though?


So am i right in saying at eighth level druids are the best class for pvp? But i don't see how a druid is the only answer to a druid.


Death Ward
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Death 4, Drd 5, Pal 4

Not unless he wants to get a scroll of it for every fight, which he would have to succeed on a caster level check to use.


If this were 9th level or higher, I'd say go with a Cleric 3/ Church Inquisitor 6 with the Spell domain and Divine Metamagic: Quicken. Use Anyspell to prepare Ray of Stupidity, cast it Quickened to one-shot the animal companion. Your at-will Force Shapechange ability is the perfect counter for Wild Shape, which you should use on the first round. Second round use DMM: Quickened Divine Power and smash some tree-hugger faces, if he Wild Shapes again just force him out of it. Thar's na way a primary spellcaster like ye can survive in melee combat fer long if'n he hadn't prepared fer it! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

Goatman_Ted
2009-06-03, 03:59 AM
If I were approaching this with the choice of most levels in Core Ranger or most levels in Core Rogue, I think the best bet would be a Spirited Charge/Power Attack Ranger on a Dire Bat with a lance and a shamefully convenient Favored Enemy.

Boost Dex as high as you possibly can. Initiative is everything.

It would take a Fighter dip to keep Improved Initiative and a Druid dip to keep the Dire Bat. (Or you could just buy/use Leadership for a Giant Eagle.)

And how is wealth allocation managed in this sort of thing? Is only so much allowed to go to one item? Are limited-use items like Wands of Polymorph disallowed? Are partially charged wands available?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-03, 04:16 AM
If you want to beat a Druid (a spellcaster) with a non-spellcaster at 8th level, I'd probably go for a Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 5/ Master of Many Forms 3. Wild Shape into a Phthisic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phthisic.htm) (XPH) and your bite will probably one-shot his animal companion with 1d4 Int damage. Check this MoMF guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=639448) for more combat forms to use depending on what you're up against.

You could also get Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to gain an animal companion on any character.

Quietus
2009-06-03, 04:38 AM
The strength of a Druid is in her ability to prepare for the landscape she's going to enter. Negate this, and you negate many of her prepared spells. Spike Stones is useless if there's no stones to make spiky, while plant growth doesn't work if there's no more plants to make grow. Blasty spells (fireball anyone?) can remove foliage quite effectively, I'd imagine, while Stone to Mud might wreck Spike Stones. That in mind, a Wizard would be my preferred method of beating a Druid.

Toss a few penalty-inducing spells; Ray of Enfeeblement is a great opener, as any beatsticking she's gonna do will be hampered by it. If you can land it, a Bestow Curse can wreak all kinds of havoc. Two or three good debuffs will leave even a heavily-wildshape-abusing druid panting. I know, this is how I became very, very frustrated in a recent game. In my case it was a poor roll against Bestow Curse (Wis penalty), followed by Touch of Stupidity. And I think there was some Wisdom drain in there too, not entirely certain. Went from 22 wis to 9; Spells gone! This put a severe damper in my effectiveness.

The key is not to come at the druid directly. They WILL be prepared for the day's expected landscape, and they WILL be able to out-beatstick you. You have to come at them sideways, when they aren't looking. Lower their stats via penalties (strength and wisdom are good targets here), alter the landscape to negate their prepared spells, and use Ray of Stupidity as an excellent way to neutralize the animal companion. They'll still have some options, they ARE tier 1 after all, but any spells prepared for that specific day will be useful only as Summon Nature's Ally now.

Oh, and being flying is excellent, as a Druid can only counter that with Air Walk (level 4 spell). They can still reach you, but it takes more maneuvering than you would with Fly. Of course, they get their full land speed, while you don't, so take that into account.

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-03, 08:08 AM
How to beat a druid as...

A barbarian: Half orc barbarian. Power attack with a two handed weapon, close quarters fighting, combat reflexes (negates improved grab and lets you use a dagger in a grapple with no penalty) , spiked gauntlet a shortsword and potion of enlarge person. Druids and their animal friends tend to have low armor classes. Power attack the animal companion and get it dead dead asap. Not whimpy -8 hit points dead, beat the dead horse till its dead. Get improved initiative, you don't want the druid and/or his friend getting off pounce on you.

With enlarge person, an 18th strength rage and a two handed sword you're doing 3d6 + 7 damage, plus whatever you power attack for. You should be roughly equal to the druids grappling ability.

Cleric: freedom of movement (makes you immune to grapple) Airwalk: If he's a bear he doesn't fly, if he's a hawk he doesn't do damage. Then buff up. Magic vestment (X2) , magic weapon, divine power and go to town Durkon style. Protection from good/evil if he summons anything. Your summons are better.

Vortling
2009-06-03, 09:29 AM
How mobile is your druid friend? Do they make use of flight abilities or are they mostly ground bound melee smasher type?

Evilfeeds
2009-06-03, 10:10 AM
6th Level diplomat. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425)

Convincing someone to renounce their gods is probably, i dunno, DC 40/50? Hell, even at DC 100 theres a ~75% chance of success.

After he's lost all his powers, its a cakewalk.

woodenbandman
2009-06-03, 10:11 AM
Cast Animal Shapes :D

Check it out. It's an awesome core spell from the Animal domain that Wild Shapes (basically) 1 creature/level into any one creature for HOURS. 20 dire tigers and you shouldn't have trouble beating a druid. Then again, the druid can also cast Animal Shapes, so you have to do this when you get it as an Animal domain cleric 2 levels before the Druid.

EDIT: Everyone's forgetting Overland Flight + Master Air, which gives a druid (I think) Good or Perfect maneuverability, and average at worst, with a 40 foot fly speed. Sure, you're faster with the Fly spell, but there's nothing stopping the druid from summoning nature's ally to restrain you while they get there.

grautry
2009-06-03, 10:52 AM
If a mind-controlled druid teaches someone druidic do they need Atonement?

If so then ensure that the druid is not Mind-blanked - or otherwise mind-affecting immune - and use Dominate Person. Tell them to teach you druidic.

This makes them into fancy Commoners until they can use Atonement. And that's the time when just about any class can simply bash their face in.

Optimystik
2009-06-03, 11:02 AM
If a mind-controlled druid teaches someone druidic do they need Atonement?

If so then ensure that the druid is not Mind-blanked - or otherwise mind-affecting immune - and use Dominate Person. Tell them to teach you druidic.

This makes them into fancy Commoners until they can use Atonement. And that's the time when just about any class can simply bash their face in.

At 8th level, only a bard would know Dominate Person.

Furthermore,

Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

"Do something that will make you lose all your powers" could be easily seen as self-destructive. At the very least, teaching an outsider Druidic would be against any druid's nature, and he gets a new save.

Hat-Trick
2009-06-03, 11:24 AM
Unfortunately, we're talking level 8th. Otherwise I'd say "be able to cast Anti-magic Field and dip Arcane Archer." Being in a AMF seriously cramps a druid's style, plus a few other spells to lock down the companion.

OverdrivePrime
2009-06-03, 12:53 PM
This is Core only and you want to use a Rogue or Ranger? An archery-focused ranger with the aforementioned suspiciously convenient Favored Enemies (Animals and whatever race the druid is) might be able to put a dent in the druid if you shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot the heck out of his animal companion, and then focus on interrupting all of his spells with prepared actions. Wear boots of flying and use a Bane bow.

I really don't think that'll work though.
Instead, consider a Halfling Rogue 8 with maxed out Dex and Charisma. Get Improved Initiative, Magical Aptitude, and Skill Focus: Use Magic Device.
If your battle uses prep rounds, use a scroll of freedom of movement on yourself, immediately followed by chugging a potion of displacement.
Once battle starts, reveal just how cheesy you are by using a Scroll of Hold Monster. If it's one of the big companions (Rhino, Bear, Dire Wolf), it'll have a lousy will save because it won't have devotion yet. If it's one of the smaller animal companions, you don't really have to worry about it that much, and should instead focus on the druid.

Once you've put the Animal companion out of commission or determined that you can ignore it, pull out a scroll of Power Word Stun on that annoying druid. It'll last a minimum of 2 rounds, which should be more than enough for you to sneak attack him into oblivion.

By the way, your Use magic Device score should be at least +30 (11 ranks + 4 charisma + 5 feats, +10 item), meaning you need a 5 or better on your UMD check when you cast Power Word Stun.
So you're spending 10,000 gp on a headband of +10 to Use Magic Device
4,000 gp on a +2 Cloak of charisma
2,350 on a +1 dagger, and you've got the rest to spend on mean scrolls and wands to abuse with your UMD check. Definitely pack a wand of Enervation.

Still don't know if it'd work against a well-played druid, but it'd be fun to try!

grautry
2009-06-03, 03:23 PM
At 8th level, only a bard would know Dominate Person.

Or an Artificer? I'm not familiar enough with the mechanics of the class but IIRC they do have some way of accessing spells on scrolls earlier than others.


"Do something that will make you lose all your powers" could be easily seen as self-destructive. At the very least, teaching an outsider Druidic would be against any druid's nature, and he gets a new save.

I guess that also depends on the phrasing.

For example a telepathic command of "If you teach me druidic I will protect you forever, you will always be safe from any harm." could possibly overcome the self-destructive nature of the request.

If 'indirect teaching' also works for depriving druids of their powers then "Write down a dictionary of druidic for the new druids coming to <druidic organization of your choice>" is also a likely candidate to bypass the self-destructive clause.

This all hinges on whether mind control can force an Atonement, but I believe that it can in fact, do so.

rokar4life
2009-06-03, 04:00 PM
a beatstick with the ability to wrap a peice of metal around its arm

KIDS
2009-06-03, 04:30 PM
I think an antimagic field would shut down everything from the druid and then you'd be left "only" against the animal companion, making it a solid option. But antimagic field is just another type of cheese so I don't recommend it.

Jerthanis
2009-06-03, 04:49 PM
Mmmmaaaaaybe a Ranger with Favored Enemy: Whatever the hell the Druid is +2, and Animals +4 with very good stats, luck, and a Large Warhorse Animal companion with barding. At level 8 and no later. With spells from the Spell Compendium (Swift Haste and Blades on Fire or some arrow based spell come to mind.)

Mindleshank
2009-06-04, 10:12 PM
Well i just realized how beatable they are, yesterday. Thanks for all the help but i went 5th lvl swashbuckler and 3rd lvl assassin i didn't win but thats because the severe lack of mobility provided by the setting. I did get the druid down to one strength and almost killed him unfortunately the funking crocodile got a lucky roll and knocked me out. However the only reason he found me in the first place was because his OOC knowledge which was dumb. Anyway the poison i used would have brought him to 0 strength in a few rounds.:smallwink: