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TooManySecrets
2009-06-03, 02:04 AM
(I have no idea whether that is the correct term, but it's the best I could come up with. I also apologize in advance for some of the weirdness of this as I don't write rules up explicitly all that often.)

So, what do I mean by Naturalistic Skill Learning? Well, in most RPGs you get experience points (or something mechanically equivalent by a different name) which you can spend to improve your skills/level/purchase abilities etc. I wanted something a bit more natural and since I was planning a game, why not try this?

For the game I'm running, I'm using a variant of Shadowrun, but it could be adapted for many different systems.

The main concept is this:
You increase skill level by spending time training or by doing exceptional things in the adventure proper.

1. It takes [X, but probably 5] pips to increase a skill to the next level.
2. Pips can be gained in two different ways: exceptional results in an adventure and by training.
3. Exceptional results can be both extreme successes and extreme failures. The specific circumstances are adjudicated by the GM. [Exact circumstances will be made up later]
4. Training takes a certain amount of time. At the end of this time, the character makes a learning roll.
5. A learning roll is similar to a normal skill roll. You roll your Skill Level and Ability in dice. Exceptional teachers could provide bonuses on this roll, poor teachers could even provide a penalty. Additional bonuses or penalties could be applied and these will be explicitly mentioned.
6. [Y] successes gives you 1 pip, to a minimum of 1 pip for 1 success.
7. The amount of time it takes to make a learning check is Time Factor * Current Level of The Skill (min 1) * Teacher Factor.
8. The Time Factor is different for each skill and is based on how complex or hard the skill is to learn.
9. The Teacher Factor is equal to the current level of the skill - 2 with a minimum of 1. Teachers can reduce this factor to a minimum of 1. Conversely, having no teacher means the factor is not reduced at all.

You increase abilities by increasing related skills.

10. It takes [X, 15 or higher] pips to increase an ability to the next level.
11. Each time a skill gains a pip, the related ability gains a pip as well.
12. In the normal course of play, there is no way of gaining a pip in an ability except by gaining a pip in a skill.

Example
Charlie currently has a 2 in Firearms and wants to increase it. Firearms have a Time Factor of 1 week. Therefore, it takes 2 weeks (1 week * 2 * 1) to make a learning check. Charlie has a 3 in Agility and has not found a teacher. Therefore, he rolls 5 (2 Firearms + 3 Agility) dice. He gets 1 success and gets 1 pip in Firearms and Agility.

Zeno currently has a 4 in Mathematics. Mathematics has a Time Factor of 1.5 weeks. Therefore, it takes 12 weeks (1.5 weeks * 4 * 2) to make a learning check. Zeno is in a hurry, so he finds a teacher and grudgingly pays him. The teacher reduces the Teacher Factor to 1 and is such a good teacher he provides a +3 bonus to the learning check. Zeno goes the extra kilometer and uses the experimental VR learning software he swiped from Ares. As Zeno has a 6 in Logic, he rolls 15 (4 Mathematics + 6 Logic + 3 Teacher + 2 VR learning software) dice. He gets [X] successes and gets 2 pips in Mathematics and Logic in 6 weeks.


Teacher rules are going to be written up later (since the PCs are going to want to teach each other to save on cash), but I'm thinking it's going to be sort of like "Teaching skill reduces Teacher Factor to 1, any left over are bonus die on learning check. A teacher can only teach up to their skill level, unless they have outside information or other exceptional sources but they then get a significant penalty on the skill".

There are a couple of things I'd like to note that this system does: to increase ability scores, it's better to branch out than specialization most of the time; teachers soon become necessary; there is no limit to how high a skill can go, but you since the time to make a learning check increases exponentially, then there is a practical limit of the character's lifetime.

Criticism well appreciated, especially in terms of making it read better, potential exploits, and ways of making it more elegant.

Pyrusticia
2009-06-03, 05:06 AM
The main concept is this:
You increase skill level by spending time training or by doing exceptional things in the adventure proper.

I like this! One of my major complaints with D&D has always been how locked-in you used to be to whatever build you chose. Used to be the only way to get around this was with new or variant classes, which didn't give you more freedom, but did provide more choices. The implementation of skills and the ease of multi-classing are basic, across the board changes that have eased this to a great extent, and what you're proposing is another such. Skill and stat advancement will no longer be restricted by class or level. Very cool! :smallbiggrin:



1. It takes [X, but probably 5] pips to increase a skill to the next level.
For simplicity, I'd recommend 10x new level for advancing skills (so, 10 to get a new skill, 20 for level 2, etc). Cross-class skills would cost twice as much (20x new level).

I was going to suggest something much larger for advancing stats, but then I realized the cost will inherently be higher anyway. Stats start out in the 10-16 range, on average...it'll be a long time before you get your skill that high. So, 10x new level probably works for stats, too.


2. Pips can be gained in two different ways: exceptional results in an adventure and by training.
3. Exceptional results can be both extreme successes and extreme failures. The specific circumstances are adjudicated by the GM. [Exact circumstances will be made up later]

Again going for simplicity, an easy rule would be that 1 pip is awarded any time a 1 or a 20 is rolled on a skill check. This means a pip should be awarded 1 in 10 rolls, which means an average of 200 rolls would be required to advance from lvl 1 skill to lvl 2, barring training. This seems reasonable (and encourages PCs to get some training).


4. Training takes a certain amount of time. At the end of this time, the character makes a learning roll.
5. A learning roll is similar to a normal skill roll. You roll your Skill Level and Ability in dice. Exceptional teachers could provide bonuses on this roll, poor teachers could even provide a penalty. Additional bonuses or penalties could be applied and these will be explicitly mentioned.
6. [Y] successes gives you 1 pip, to a minimum of 1 pip for 1 success.
7. The amount of time it takes to make a learning check is Time Factor * Current Level of The Skill (min 1) * Teacher Factor.
8. The Time Factor is different for each skill and is based on how complex or hard the skill is to learn.
9. The Teacher Factor is equal to the current level of the skill - 2 with a minimum of 1. Teachers can reduce this factor to a minimum of 1. Conversely, having no teacher means the factor is not reduced at all.

Hmm...for mechanics of teaching, I'd recommend a Profession (Instructor) skill. An instructor can only teach someone with a lower level in the skill being taught than the instructor himself has. Furthermore, all teachers provide a bonus to the learning roll equal to their level in Profession (Instructor), minus the new level of the skill being taught. This bonus can be split up as desired between reducing the Teaching Factor (to a minimum of 1)and adding dice to the Learning Roll. This allows students to forgoe the time savings if they would prefer the extra pips.

For example:

An instructor with Concentration (6) and Instructor (4) cannot teach Concentration to anyone with a current level of 6 or above, because they do not possess the required knowledge.

If that same instructor taught someone Concentration (3), they would provide a +1 bonus to the learning check (Instructor level 4 - new level of skill being taught 3). This is due to their excellent skill at passing information along (represented by the Profession (Instructor) skill).

If that same instructor taught someone Concentration (5), they would impose a -1 penalty to the learning check (Instructor 4 - Concentration 5). This is because even though they have the knowledge required, they don't have the skill to pass that knowledge in an efficient manner (again, due to skill in Profession (Instructor).

As a subcategory of the Profession skill, Instructor is a class skill for all classes.

The only problem with this is that as written, it is better to have no instructor than a mediocre one. To counteract this, I'd recommend a slight change to your point 9: Instead of the Teacher Factor not being reduced if you have no teacher, I'd say you double the Teacher Factor. This represents the difficulty of puzzling stuff out all on your own, and encourages the use of teachers, even poor ones.

Just to be certain, this completely replaces skill and stat advancement due to levels, right? The only skill points you get are the ones you start with, at 1st level? Because otherwise it would be a bit overpowered...

Set
2009-06-03, 02:19 PM
GURPS has a system where a character can learn skills during 'downtime,' by training in the skill and filling out a form for months off between adventuring, and then gaining (IIRC, it's been a decade or more...) 1 character point for every 200 hours spend training in that skill.

It was a pretty neat concept.

There was a push for a heuristic skill aquisition mechanic back on the SJGames forums, many many years ago (between 2E and 3E, IIRC), but I would have no idea where to find that these days.

TooManySecrets
2009-06-03, 03:43 PM
I like this! One of my major complaints with D&D has always been how locked-in you used to be to whatever build you chose. Used to be the only way to get around this was with new or variant classes, which didn't give you more freedom, but did provide more choices. The implementation of skills and the ease of multi-classing are basic, across the board changes that have eased this to a great extent, and what you're proposing is another such. Skill and stat advancement will no longer be restricted by class or level. Very cool! :smallbiggrin:

Well, remember, this is going to be made for a variant of Shadowrun. But, yeah, principal's the same for D&D. There are differences, of course, but the main one is one of probability distribution: in both D&D and Shadowrun, increasing your skill level increases the average result, but in Shadowrun there is always a chance of failure (remember, there is no critical failure for skills in D&D!) and that the chance of failure for a specific number of successes has a diminishing rate of return. Where this is important, I'll mention but it's pretty much irrelevant for most things.



You've brought up some things that have made me rethink some stuff.

Okay, let's do D&D first:
(Unless the number is specifically noted, it's the same as the previous post)
1. It takes [X, but probably 5*current skill level] pips to increase a skill to the next level.
3. [...] adjudicated by the GM, however it is suggested that the result of these rolls should be critical to the adventure. For example, rolling a 20 on the attack roll to hit the fleeing BBEG with a longbow at long would definitely be sufficient.
4. [...] the character makes a learning check.
5. A learning check is similar to a normal skill check. The modifier is equal to the normal skill modifier (ignoring bonuses from items unless specifically stated) plus (skill points normally gained each level)/2, round up . [...]
6. The DC for the check is the new skill level + 10. Passing the check gives you 1 pip in the skill. For each [Y, but probably 10] by which you surpass the check, you gain an additional pip. Pips gained that put you over the [X] required are ignored.
7. The amount of time it takes to make a learning roll is Time Factor * Current Level of The Skill (min 1) * Teacher Factor * Cross-Class Penalty. The Cross-Class penalty is [1.5, 2, maybe more] if the skill is cross-classed.
10. It takes [X, but probably 5*next ability score] pips to increase an ability to the next level.

And Shadowrun:
3. [...] adjudicated by the GM, however it is suggested that the result of these rolls should be critical to the adventure. For example, rolling a critical success on the attack roll to disarm the BBEG of his gun with a throwing knife would definitely be sufficient.
6. It takes a number of successes equal to the current level of skill to succeed on the check. Each additional [or maybe each 2] success gives you an additional pip.


How's that look, Pyrusticia?

Now, the more astute of you will notice that the system is set up so that the majority of the pips come from training rather than exceptional circumstances during gameplay. This is intentional. By keeping these circumstances rare, the player will value the times they get it far more and will make the circumstances surrounding it even more memorable. The only thing better than killing the fleeing villain who has been a thorn in your side the entire campaign is increasing your skill while doing it.


Hmm...for mechanics of teaching...

Okay, here goes.

[I]D&D:
1. The Teacher Factor can be reduced by finding an instructor or by using a book about the skill.
2. The Teacher Factor can only be reduced to 1.
3. Books written about the skill can affect the learning check and amount of time just as a real instructor, however all bonuses (bonus to learning check, reduction in Teacher Factor) are halved, round down.
4. An instructor cannot teach a skill rank higher than they themselves have.
5. An instructor reduces the Teacher Factor by their modifier in Profession(Instructor).
6. For each point of positive difference between the teacher's Profession(Instructor) modifier and the new rank the player is raising their skill to provides a +1 bonus on the learning check. Conversely, each point of negative difference provides a -1 penalty. (For example, an instructor with a 4 Profession(Instructor) teaching a character who was raising their Concentration to 3 ranks would provide a +1 bonus on the learning check. The instructor, of course, would need at least 3 ranks in Concentration, as normal)



Now, you suggest letting the character choose between adding bonus to learning check or reducing Teacher Factor, but the thing is that with basic probability, there really isn't a choice:
Each reduction in Teacher Factor reduces the amount of time it takes by Time Factor * Current Level of The Skill * Cross-Class Penalty, while getting a +1 bonus on the learning check reduces the amount of time it takes by (1/10) [see #6 above] * Time Factor * Current Level of The Skill * Teacher Factor * Cross-Class Penalty. Everything else being the same, the reduction ratio is 1 vs. (1/10)*Teacher Factor, so below skill level 12 you reduce the Teacher Factor, above you get a bonus (Of course, that's expected outcome and a bit of a simplification but it's pretty close).

In addition, if there isn't a choice, then we don't have to do any more modifications to Teacher Factor re: uninstructed.


Just to be certain, this completely replaces skill and stat advancement due to levels, right? The only skill points you get are the ones you start with, at 1st level? Because otherwise it would be a bit overpowered...

Oh yeah, definitely. And skill level would [I]probably still be restricted by level.

In point of fact, while this was originally for Shadowrun system, I had thought of using it for D&D, it would almost like to make all abilities "learnable", so that instead of spending time homebrewing a new class, you just learn the abilities you want. You want wild shape and divine grace? BAM! You spend time learning it! (There would probably be additional requirements, like say spending time in the wilds for wild shape or being officially recognized and blessed by a church or divine authority for divine grace. You want high unarmed damage, you find an ancient monk on the top of a mountain.) However, that's more complicated so that's for later.


Also, here's some numbers, just so you know:

(Expected Time is assuming no other skill bonus besides skill rank, no instructor, and a time factor of 1 week)
{table=head]Skill Level | Teacher Factor | Time for Check | Expected Time
1 | 1 | 1 week | 10 weeks
5 | 3 | 15 weeks | 750 weeks [14 years]
10 | 8 | 80 weeks | 8000 weeks [153 years]
[/table]


(Same as above, but with instructor with 10 Profession(Instructor). Expected time is wonky, so it's a bit of an estimate)
{table=head]Skill Level | Teacher Factor | Time for Check | Expected Time
1 | 1 | 1 week | 4 weeks
5 | 1 | 5 weeks | 167 weeks [3 years]
10 | 1 | 10 weeks | 667 weeks [13 years]
[/table]

In truth, those numbers are probably realistic. Remember, by D&D standards, most people in the real world are 1st level. Truly exceptional people are 2nd level, maybe 3rd. You can also see the huge difference having a good teacher makes.

Looking over these numbers (I'm writing this in chronological order), I think that we should keep the number of pips to get to the next level a constant: it reduces the amount of time to a more "heroic fantasy" level and increasing number of pips decreases the impact of exceptional results. Besides, do you really want to keep track of 50+ pips? 5 or 10 pips is probably what I'm going to go with (with ability scores being x3 that), though that's something that I would have to playtest a bit.

EDIT: Hmm, thinking over those "learn abilities" stuff. Static abilities (like divine grace) would have to cost more than leveled abilities (like wild shape or spellcasting), at least three or four times as much I'd say.

Also, instead of choosing class at the beginning, they choose their area of expertise. So, a 2 area of expertise dealie would be Physical vs. Magical. Each starts out at x2, and you could reduce both or either by 1.5. So, maybe a mage would be Physical x2/Magic x0.5, a fighter would be Physical x0.5/Magic 2 and a gish would be Physical x1.25/Magic x1.25. Everything that was "Physical" (however that was determined) would take x2 as long for the Mage, x0.5 for the Fighter, etc. Same deal with Magic, of course.

Also, I'll add the Shadowrun stuff for teaching above. Shadowrun usually has lower numbers than D&D so it's a bit different. 7 in D&D for a skill is relatively low. In Shadowrun, it's the maximum. (I'm probably going to get rid of maximum skill, though. The only limit should be a practical one.)



GURPS has a system where a character can learn skills during 'downtime,' by training in the skill and filling out a form for months off between adventuring, and then gaining (IIRC, it's been a decade or more...) 1 character point for every 200 hours spend training in that skill.
I'll look into GURPS, Set.