Car question (Honda Civic versus Scion tC)

[Syka]

We're (finally) seriously car shopping. So far we have ruled out the Toyota 09 Matrix (takes bumps horribly) and 10 Camry (waaaaay too big for us, we were swimming in the seats), despite the awesome price tag (20% off plus an extra $1000 for me being a recent graduate).

We pretty much have it down to the Scion tC, Honda Civic LX-S, or the Element EX (I think that one). Potentially the Fit or Insight as well. All 2009 models, since none have 10's out yet.

It was down to just the Honda's until I got my mom to actually take the tC out on the road and she loved it. The only problem is...we also loved the Civic and the Element. I think the tC would end up being slightly cheaper, but I'm not entirely sure how it stacks up to the Civic.

The Element is more just a "woo SUV we actually like" more than a real contender, I think.

So...anyone know the reliability of the tC versus Civic?

[valadil]

I can't speak to the Scion, but I'm very happy with my Civic. The only problems I've had with it have been entirely my own fault.

[Philistine]

Lots of information is available online, though admittedly knowing where to look for it can be a problem. :smallwink:

Scion tC (http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/scion/tc/100997044/reliability.html)

Honda Civic LX-S (http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/honda/civic/101061142/reliability.html)

Both the Scion and Honda have good records for reliability; the Scion is a little cheaper but drinks significantly more gas and has a fairly bad rap for "initial quality." I'd probably go with the Honda - like Valadil, the problems I've had with my Civic (a '95 model) have largely been operator-induced.


@V: Neither car's backseat is really fit for human habitation. Not for grownup-sized humans, at any rate.

[SDF]

Another thing to consider is that the Scion is targeted for a niche market while the civic is one of the most popular cars in the world. What this means practically is that EVERYONE is going to be able to service a civic, while if you break down in the middle of nowhere with a scion it could take longer to get parts/service. Also, I HATE the backseat of the tc. >_>

[Erloas]

Well one of the people I carpool with as a Civic and its ok, but nothing special.

One thing to look into is what it costs to insure the cars. I believe the demographic of the Scion (<25 years old for the most part) puts it fairly high on the insurance costs. I think the Civic kind of falls into that category as well (it helps that they are common so its easy to find parts, but I believe it is also one of the most stolen cars because it is so common) but I think overall it is better.
The potential difference in the cost to insure the cars can make a pretty big difference in the total cost of ownership of one car over another.

It may have changed lately, since its been a while since I was car shopping, but the Scions had a substantial premium on their prices at that time and wouldn't have been something I even considered if price was an important factor.
As it is the quality of all the manufacturers has fairly evened out and the Hondas and Toyotas (makes Scion) still have a price premium for a perceived level of quality over their competitors that really doesn't exist anymore. Its definitely arguable that they are still higher quality, but the difference is negligible in most cases. The quality of cars from any manufacturer changes a fair amount from one line of cars to the next, often having more to do with what plant they were built in rather then what brand name is on the car.

[Jack Squat]

My first choice would be the Element, but my cars have also been a Chevy Suburban and a Jeep Wrangler, so I'm not too used to "low" cars.

I'd personally go for the Civic between the two. Partially because the Civic is 4 door (more legroom for passengers) and partially because I think it looks better. The Scion has a larger trunk, by a little over a cubic foot (12.8 to 11.5), but either is plenty to haul groceries and more wherever you need.

I think maintenance for the Civic would be less expensive (but not having been around anyone with a tC, I wouldn't know), and doing a ballpark quote on Allstate, the Civic also has cheaper insurance ($1500/6 mo for the tC $1170 for the Civic).

[valadil]

Neither car's backseat is really fit for human habitation. Not for grownup-sized humans, at any rate.

True, but that's never a problem for the owner of the car. Anyone under 6 feet is usually okay in the backseat. It's pretty rare that I have more than one tall passenger at a time.

[Erloas]

I think maintenance for the Civic would be less expensive (but not having been around anyone with a tC, I wouldn't know), and doing a ballpark quote on Allstate, the Civic also has cheaper insurance ($1500/6 mo for the tC $1170 for the Civic).

Are they really that much to insure? I have full on my car and liability on my truck and even combined they are a bit less then $600/6 months. Although I would bet it has a lot more to do with location and driver stats then the cars themselves.

But even if the numbers change, if they stay relatively the same between companies that is about 25% more to insure the tC. And even with a lot lower rates thats still a few hundred a year.

[Jack Squat]

Are they really that much to insure? I have full on my car and liability on my truck and even combined they are a bit less then $600/6 months. Although I would bet it has a lot more to do with location and driver stats then the cars themselves.


For someone under 25 in my area, so it seems (I consistently see people here straddling the double yellow lines). It was just a ballpark as well, it could easily drop quite a bit in actuality.

[Philistine]

Are they really that much to insure? I have full on my car and liability on my truck and even combined they are a bit less then $600/6 months. Although I would bet it has a lot more to do with location and driver stats then the cars themselves.

But even if the numbers change, if they stay relatively the same between companies that is about 25% more to insure the tC. And even with a lot lower rates thats still a few hundred a year.

Different drivers in different locales will get different rates from different insurers; but for a given driver/location/insurer combination, the relationship should hold.

And yes, it does appear that the Scion is more expensive to insure in addition to requiring more fuel.

[Syka]

The backseats on both were fine for me. But I'm also only 5'4. One thing Scion has over Civic is the trunk space can expand up to 35 cubic feet, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause the backseats fold down.

That said, while the novelty lover in me cries out for the tc, the reasons you guys said Civic are what was leaning me towards it. I hadn't even thought about the insurance costs. Makes sense since Scions (all varieties) are one of the most pulled over cars (Hummer H2 I think was the top).

Thanks. :)

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can recommend the Civic. I've had my old '98 Civic for nearly seven years now and it's never let me down, even coming up on 200,000 miles. Hell, I only just got it tuned up for the first time (I'm a horrible person to my car), and it was still running really well.

As for the new versions, I test drove in both a Civic and a Scion when my girlfriend was looking for a new car (she went with a Nissan Sentra, which you really ought to give a shot if you haven't already). I can say that the Civic was much, much more comfortable and seemed to handle and grip the road quite a bit better - the girlfriend didn't like the stiff suspension, but I did, as I like to feel what I'm driving on. The Civic's going to be $1000-$2000 dollars more expensive, but that's made up for in amenities, I think. I seem to recall the Civic getting slightly better gas mileage as well.

[Philistine]

The backseats on both were fine for me. But I'm also only 5'4. One thing Scion has over Civic is the trunk space can expand up to 35 cubic feet, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause the backseats fold down.

That said, while the novelty lover in me cries out for the tc, the reasons you guys said Civic are what was leaning me towards it. I hadn't even thought about the insurance costs. Makes sense since Scions (all varieties) are one of the most pulled over cars (Hummer H2 I think was the top).

Thanks. :)
Hmmph. Okay, maybe for you the backseat of a Civic is fine. But I'm 6'2" and, well, not skinny - I've found it murderously uncomfortable the few times I've had to try it.

And the backseats in my Civic also fold down to increase cargo space.

[snoopy13a]

The Civic is a sedan and the Scion is a coupe right?

Personally, I'd take a sedan over a couple anyday. I like using the back seat for groceries, laundry, etc (I realize you can use the trunk, but I like the back seat better). Plus it is easier to carry passengers in a sedan over a coupe.

Another factor to consider is MPG.

What about the Ford Focus?

[Syka]

Haha, I remember my friends Civic Hybrid. Four of us was fine...Five started getting a little friendly (it was me, a guy who was probably around 6', and another girl probably about 5'6). The tC definitely had more leg room than I remember in the Civic, but the headroom was less.

ETA: Civic comes as a sedan or coupe. I use trunks for groceries and such so the two door thing isn't an issue. In fact, all my close friends down here have had a two door at the same time (Firebird, Tiburon, Nissan 300z or whatever, and an old BMW convertible). Since the girl with the Tib has gone up to a Mazda6 and the guy with the BMW got a moped instead. Coupe isn't a problem for me.

[Mustiado]

The backseats on both were fine for me. But I'm also only 5'4. One thing Scion has over Civic is the trunk space can expand up to 35 cubic feet, if I'm not mistaken, 'cause the backseats fold down.

That said, while the novelty lover in me cries out for the tc, the reasons you guys said Civic are what was leaning me towards it. I hadn't even thought about the insurance costs. Makes sense since Scions (all varieties) are one of the most pulled over cars (Hummer H2 I think was the top).

Thanks. :)

Unless you're talking about a hybrid Civic, the backseats in the civic fold down as well. Should be good for your cargo needs. The other big thing to consider is resale. I used to sell Hondas, and I can say the resale on the Civic is much better than on the tC. I like the looks of the Element, but its a little odder to drive. I think the Civic is the best choice. I'd upgrade to the EX if you could afford it, the extra options really pay for themselves. Head to www.edmunds.com to find out what your trade is worth, and what people are paying in the area.

Also, if this is going to be a long term car, consider a lease. You can purchase it against the later residual of the car, get a lower payment now, and be able to refinance in 3 years, or the end of your lease term.

[Philistine]

A salesman? O noes! :smallwink: I was in auto finance, myself. Loan originations - the bad old days. I can second the recommendation of edmonds.com, though - we regularly used them for valuation when we couldn't get an invoice on a current year used vehicle.

Leasing may be an option, though several lenders have really cut back on availability in the past year or so.

You also might consider looking into current year used autos - they've already taken the biggest single depreciation hit they ever will, short of being totalled, so they generally retain value better (especially when the used-car market is as far down the toilet as it currently is); on the other hand, dealers can generally get you a better financing deal on a brand-new car due to the many and varied incentive programs that are floating around at any given time.

One other thing: financing terms of greater than 48 months are best avoided. It's far better to bite the bullet and make the higher monthly payment if at all possible - you'll probably come out better off in the long run, and you're much less likely to ever be caught "upside down" in the event of a total loss.

[THAC0]

We have a civic. It gets good gas mileage and you can fit a LOT of stuff in it. We've done several cross country moves with it and it really holds more than you'd expect. We love it!

[Syka]

Leasing/financing isn't a problem since we're paying cash for it. My mom was in an accident so we have the money already.

[blackfox]

Toyota makes Scion, and in my personal experience, Toyotas don't handle as well as I'd like. Same applies to Lexus, their luxury line, so I'm pretty sure the same rule would work for Scion as well. Also, the new Civic, even non-hybrid, is very gas-efficient from what I've heard. Toyotas are very reliable as far as cars go, but at the expense of gas mileage and handling. Personally, I like the balance Honda has between the three. My mom's '98 Accord is still running, without any major problems besides an annoying short in the dash that makes the check engine light come on. (We had it checked. :smalltongue:)

[skywalker]

I know you said it wasn't really an option, but I'd vote for the Element.

You're less likely to have to upgrade to a different car should you have kids, dogs, laz-e-boys, or anything else to haul. Having a back on the car is just so convenient.

If you get the right options, the seats can fold down into a bed, which means you can camp in the car in dire straits, as well as... less dire straits...

Finally, you get to roll down your windows and say to passersby, "I'm in my Element!" A friend of mine, her dad actually does this. He rolls up next to strangers at stoplights and actually says that sentence. It's not like a one-time thing. It's like a hobby.

[Philistine]

But the Element is so ugly. It drinks an awful lot of gas, too - like most SUVs it's a terrible commuter vehicle unless you're carpooling with at least two other people every day. Plus, trucks are No Fun At All to drive.

The extra cargo space is only an advantage if you actually need it often enough to justify the added cost of dragging it around with you everywhere you go. If you have teenaged kids, or large dogs, or if you're moving furniture at least once a month, sure; otherwise, it may well be more economical to buy a smaller "commuter" and then rent a larger vehicle for occasional use.

[Jimp]

Civic is a better car in almost every way I can think of, granted there isn't much of a difference between either of them in the first place.

[Don Julio Anejo]

But the Element is so ugly. It drinks an awful lot of gas, too - like most SUVs it's a terrible commuter vehicle unless you're carpooling with at least two other people every day. Plus, trucks are No Fun At All to drive.

The extra cargo space is only an advantage if you actually need it often enough to justify the added cost of dragging it around with you everywhere you go. If you have teenaged kids, or large dogs, or if you're moving furniture at least once a month, sure; otherwise, it may well be more economical to buy a smaller "commuter" and then rent a larger vehicle for occasional use.
+1.

IMO - go for the Civic. It's awesome. I have an 05 Civic LX... Seriously, that thing eats less gas than a Prius.

I know it's anecdotal evidence, but still... easily a quarter of all people with cars that I know drive Civics and there hasn't been a SINGLE problem with it except for the "check engine" light and an occasional need to change break pads/wind wipers/other routine stuff.

My parents used to have a 98 Civic EX with 250,000 kilometers and only had to buy a new car last year after some druggie kids stole and totaled it.

[Syka]

Decision time for us.

ALL Toyota's were ruled out. Now all we have to do is decide between a Civic LX-S (in Tango Red if they have it in our state; we're upgrading to the S because of the black interior...my thing, lol. All they had on our lot was the LX-S in white, atomic blue, and silver.) or Element EX. We both like both of them, a lot, for different reasons. Both drove as well or better than the Toyota's we tried and they looked/felt soooo much nicer. Reliability may be the same, but Honda definitely has getting the look of a car down.

But yeah...we're not really sure. We'll probably end up with both sometime in the near future regardless of what we get now.

On insurance: it's actually cheaper for the Element but not by much. Our insurance (currently on a 99 Olds Cutlass) will only go up about 70 dollars, which is good for a 10 year difference in makes.