Sorcerer optomization feat (PEACH)

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I have complete arcane, and i noticed the feat that was hidden so well in the back pages somewhere called colligient wizard which basically makes your wizard the ultimately versatile caster. So I thought "ANOTHER thing that makes wizards kick sorcerers in the arse!?" so i thought about this

Talented Sorcerer [General]
You're a born natural sorcerer, gaining bonuses on "lesser" sorcerers.
Prerequisites: Cha 13 or higher, sorcerer level 1st
Benefit: You gain a bonus number of spells known equal to the number of extra spells per day because of a high charisma score. Magical enhancements are not part of this equation so use your unmodified charisma modifier to determine extra spells. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Normal: Sorcerers have a set number of spells known as they level and progress.
Special: You can only take this as a 1st level character.

[Seffbasilisk]

Increased Potential.

Feat that does that exactly, only it doesn't have to be taken 1st level and doesn't give the +2 on spellcraft.

edit: think it's from a Dragon Magazine.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

oh...thanks, i need a way to make my sorcerer intimidate the party wizard, and that might just be a way how

Edit: oh, well actually i meant it's a continual thing, you don't just gain all the new spells and that's it, as your charisma score increases naturally you continue to gain more spells known dependant on your spell level and cha modifier. So lets say ariath the sorcerer has a charisma score of 19 and is 8th level (able to cast 4th level spells) but he hasn't included his +1 bonus to an ability score for being 8th level, so he makes it an even 20, enhancing his spells per day AND spells known and equal amount.

[idksocrates]

that isn't what the feat in Dragon does?

I mean, its not unheard of. Improved toughness has no prequisites and can be taken to give you 1 extra hit point per level (including future levels).

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

that isn't what the feat in Dragon does?

I mean, its not unheard of. Improved toughness has no prequisites and can be taken to give you 1 extra hit point per level (including future levels).

i just saw a feat randomly searched for, Increased potential (not sure at all if it's the same one) that states you need 13 wis and only gives you a one time boost to spells known

[Nasrudith]

This seems a bit unbalacned and raises rules questions. Like do you loose or gain spells with that cloack of charimsa.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

This seems a bit unbalacned and raises rules questions. Like do you loose or gain spells with that cloack of charimsa.

i stated in the feat that only natural charisma has anything to do with it, so if your normal cha's 18, but you put a cloak of charisma +ten million, it won't affect it at all, because it's magic

[ultimacrom]

What bothers me about this is actually charisma loss. Do you lose these nifty extra spells known? If so, which ones do you lose?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

What bothers me about this is actually charisma loss. Do you lose these nifty extra spells known? If so, which ones do you lose?

hmm...that's something to think about...
i suppose you can't really lose spells known if you think about it logically, but then there's the 'switch out spells for new ones' thing which opposes that sense of logic...
ultimately if i were running a campaign that had a sorcerer with this feat in it and he had charisma drain i think the loss wouldn't reduce spells known. losing the spells per day and possible loss of spell levels because of being too low level would be a pretty bad thing to happen

[Yuki Akuma]

If you don't lose spells when you lose Charisma, what happens if you lose a point, bumping you down from 18 to 17, then turn level eight and raise your Charisma back to 18? Do you gain bonus spells known again?

[Peregrine]

i suppose you can't really lose spells known if you think about it logically, but then there's the 'switch out spells for new ones' thing which opposes that sense of logic...
Logical? I don't think it's 'logical' for Charisma to increase spells known, not if we're talking about 'known' as in normal intellectual knowledge. If instead it represents a certain somewhat abstract capacity for 'knowing' how a certain spell feels when you manipulate it using your force of personality, then I imagine something that drains that force of personality would cause you to 'forget'. (Given how good this feat seems, I think it'd be okay to do this. Losing those extra spells would hurt, but it'd make you no worse and likely still somewhat better than a non-Talented Sorcerer.)

On the other hand, this would suggest something that increases Charisma (like a Cloak) should increase spells known. The obvious precedent for not doing so is skill points... they're based on your base Intelligence score only, and they can't be gained or lost retroactively through changes in your Int score. This suggests to me that your feat could take effect only when levelling up... but this isn't how bonus spells work... so you could pick extra spells known some other way. But then, it's not this feat anymore. :) (In fact it's more like Improved Spell Capacity, which is Epic.)

[Zeful]

The charisma loss would effectivly affect your higest level spell known.
The wording of the feat seems to indicate that when you gain a new spell level any bonus spells gained through your base charisma score as spells per day are. So when your charisma drops to a point where you no longer gain a bonus spell per day you also lose tha bonus spell know for that level as well.

If that was to confusing look at it this way; A sorcerer at eight level can cast 4th level spells. If the sorcerer has an 18 (a +4 mod) charisma he gains a bonus spell known for all spell levels he can cast. If this sorcerer takes one point of charisma damage his charisma drops to 17 (a +3 mod) and he loses the ability to cast his bonus spell known for fourth level.

If you really want to surpass the wiz in versatillity pick up Versitile Spellcaster from Races of Dragons. Then cast more higher level spells than the wizard could ever dream of.

[The_Shaman]

Or, if you want spells known and have a good wisdom score , take arcane disciple. Several times. Oh, and get some incantatrix levels to give you bonus metamagic feats.

Make wizards cry.

[Ayana]

Simply include in the feat a note to record the bonus spells chosen because of thsi feat. When you drop in CHA you remove the appropriate spell(s). If your CHA goes back up you regain those same spells, you don't get to re-choose.

Then make a follow-up feat requiring this one which enhances this feat to include CHA gained from items/buffs as well.

[MrNexx]

Simple question: If I am playing a sorcerer, why do I NOT take this feat? Assuming I single-class as a sorcerer, this is a couple extra 1st level spells, and an extra spell up to 5th level without much of a problem. This is a monster enhancement to any sorcerer.

My verdict? As a feat, it is utterly broken. However, given the state of the sorcerer, I would make it a class feature. ;-)

[Zeful]

If this feat is broken then so is the Colliget Wizard feat from CArc. I for one use a similar system to give Sorcs bonus spells known except they get more at lower levels.
Giving them the bonus through buffs/magic items is alittle off. As it would take a Eagle's splendor (or any temporary increase) to get more spells for a certain situation.

[Ayana]

Simple question: If I am playing a sorcerer, why do I NOT take this feat? Assuming I single-class as a sorcerer, this is a couple extra 1st level spells, and an extra spell up to 5th level without much of a problem. This is a monster enhancement to any sorcerer.
Because sorcerers are often taken as a class when the concept calls for narrowly specialized power. If you're going for an artillery platform an extra metamagic feat is better than a few more spells known. If your'e going for a manipulator sorcerer an extra social feat can be more useful. And so on.

Sure 1-2 extra spells known from 1-6 can be handy, but the base spells known already allow you to cover the primary needs of your character, the extras likely used for some extra ultility. And keep in mind sorcerers have no bonus feats, meaning this takes up one of an already very limited number which is better used in metamagic considering their nice ability to apply it at casting time just for the cost of full round rather than 1 standard action.

[Foeofthelance]

I already house rule something similiar. As far as losing spells known, you don't, which doesn't matter as much as a sorcerer. As they already tend to have severly limited spell selections, allowing them that extra one or two doesn't unbalance the game any more then a wizard getting to keep the spells he's scribed into his book when he gets drained.

[Zeful]

Except that wizards only get bonus spells at first level and the extra spells they scribe aren't contingant on Int.

[The_Shaman]

As far as I know wizards get 2 bonus spells at every level, though. That is beside all the spells they scribe in their books from scrolls or friendly wizards.

As an aside, I was browsing through CW and saw the hexblade's bonus feats. Can anyone give a good reason why it's the hexblade and not the sorcerer who gets free spell focus, or spell penetration?

[SpiderBrigade]

As an aside, I was browsing through CW and saw the hexblade's bonus feats. Can anyone give a good reason why it's the hexblade and not the sorcerer who gets free spell focus, or spell penetration?

Or why the sorceror doesn't get any class features other than a (omg!)familar?

[Zeful]

The concensus at the wizards boards is that spotanious casting+fewer spells known+more spells per day=less spells per day+near unlimited spells known+memorisation+spellbook dependance+bonus feats