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View Full Version : [3.5] Of Monks and VoP



The Professor
2009-06-03, 06:29 PM
First off, I'm no stranger to optimization. I know monks are gimped, and I know VoP makes them even worse. So, I have a question I'd like to put to everyone that I kinda liked (though I'm unsure if it's original).

Would it be reasonable to give a Monk VoP in addition to his normal WBL? We already gave the poor li'l guy Full BaB. Thanks in advance for the input!

Talya
2009-06-03, 06:33 PM
First off, I'm no stranger to optimization. I know monks are gimped, and I know VoP makes them even worse. So, I have a question I'd like to put to everyone that I kinda liked (though I'm unsure if it's original).

Would it be reasonable to give a Monk VoP in addition to his normal WBL? We already gave the poor li'l guy Full BaB. Thanks in advance for the input!

A monk with VoP's benefits, but not the vow itself, so they can use gear?

That monk will kick serious amounts of ass. I haven't thought it through much, but off the top of my head, this probably will put them beyond unarmed swordsage for power.

mostlyharmful
2009-06-03, 06:36 PM
it'd be like a massive, massive investment of cash and that's how the Artifacer gets his place in the top five (not the only way I know but it matters almost that much). A tad over the top on a rebalance.

RTGoodman
2009-06-03, 06:39 PM
I might not give the FULL benefits of the Vow, but I think you could certainly give the majority of it without breaking the class.

I'd probably remove the enhancement bonuses to ability scores - if you've got cash, you can just buy your periapt of Wisdom and whatnot. Also get rid of the bonus Exalted feats, but let any monk that qualifies for Sanctified [X] (Wis to attack) take it without being Exalted.

Talya
2009-06-03, 06:40 PM
it'd be like a massive, massive investment of cash and that's how the Artifacer gets his place in the top five (not the only way I know but it matters almost that much). A tad over the top on a rebalance.

Not to mention, of all the classes, Monks probably can benefit the most from a lot of those exalted feats. +2d6 holy damage onto every attack? Boosted SR? Boosted Stunning fist? Wisdom to hit? It's not hard to find all those feats that a monk can make use of. And the free +5 enchantment to their unarmed strikes...the massive boost in abilities to compensate for MAD...it's really a lot of stuff. Not enough to compensate for not having gear, but in addition to gear? The only thing keeping me from saying outright it's overpowered, is you're still fighting for a place among wizards, clerics, and druids.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-06-03, 06:40 PM
Just let him switch out Monk levels for Unarmed Swordsage levels and you are good.

Starscream
2009-06-03, 06:45 PM
Might work. I still wouldn't bet money on a high level monk vs a druid or wizard, but it would make a big difference.

The problem with single class fixes like this is that they work, but sometimes a little too well. A well designed monk with this fix could probably wipe the floor with any fighter, paladin, rogue, or indeed any non-spellcasting class with the possible exception of the ToB classes.

That's why I generally prefer blanket fixes like Zeal's Tier/Partial Gestalt system. It strengthens all the weak classes while doing nothing to nerf the powerful ones. And it specifically helps the really weak ones more than the slightly weak ones.

There are probably ways to break the game with it, though. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but some of the optimizers I've seen on this forum can turn paraplegic squirrels into demigods with the right supplements. I bow before their might:smallbiggrin:!

If you are just trying to balance the monk and no one else, I'd suggest Fax's Monk (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk). Might be my favorite homebrew ever. I love monks to death, it's just a shame they such so bad by RAW.

The Professor
2009-06-03, 07:19 PM
Hmm. Thanks for the input guys. And the timely responses. I ask this because it's a blanket fix, and it's easier to have my poor players do something simple then look up a fix on the internet. As much as I love many of Fax's Rebirth class fixes.

I think if I seriously consider implementing this, I might remove the enhancement bonus to stats, as someone suggested, and carefully go over the exalted feats and grant or deny some depending on character to character. While I'm aware this could certainly be broken with the proper optimizer at the helm, I believe that's the last thing I have to worry about my players, which is why I considered this blanket fix to begin with.

Rainbownaga
2009-06-03, 08:27 PM
Is the enhancement bonus to ability scores really that overpowered? After all, it doesn't stack with bonuses from items. Similarly, the AC bonus doesn't stack with bracers of armor.

So if the bonus feats were removed, what is so breaking about the class?

The only thing i can see as breaking it are taking advantage of the +5 to weapons to use a +1 weapon with +8 or 9 abilities, but since you have 5 less BAB anyway, the point seems a little moot.

Yes, I'm not a good optimizer, but I'm interested in what would break this. Also considering using it for my own games.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-06-03, 09:07 PM
I would take away both the enhancement bonuses to ability scores, and the bonus exalted feats. Make its progression based on their class level in Monk, rather than their character level, and it can't be advanced by any means other than more levels in the Monk class. In that case, it wouldn't necessarily even be specific to any alignment.

Edit: The Exalted Strike bonus should only apply to their unarmed strikes, not any weapons they wield.

Starbuck_II
2009-06-03, 09:58 PM
Is the enhancement bonus to ability scores really that overpowered? After all, it doesn't stack with bonuses from items. Similarly, the AC bonus doesn't stack with bracers of armor.

So if the bonus feats were removed, what is so breaking about the class?

The only thing i can see as breaking it are taking advantage of the +5 to weapons to use a +1 weapon with +8 or 9 abilities, but since you have 5 less BAB anyway, the point seems a little moot.

Yes, I'm not a good optimizer, but I'm interested in what would break this. Also considering using it for my own games.

You get +8 to 1 ability score: almost like they counted on inherent bonuses in there.

Rainbownaga
2009-06-03, 10:03 PM
Just a suggestion, but maybe it's the armor bonus that would be the biggest drawback. From what I've seen, the one thing that monks are good at is not being hit, and giving them a +9 maximum rather than the usual +5 just seems to make it worse.

That and letting a monk actually hit things doesn't seem half as bad as making mooks constantly miss

I'm personally going for halving the exalted armor bonus (rounding up) and dropping the exalted feats, but keeping the enchantment bonuses as-is (they don't stack, and they only get silly around the time they're competing with high level spells)

Naturally, I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways.

Rainbownaga
2009-06-03, 10:37 PM
You get +8 to 1 ability score: almost like they counted on inherent bonuses in there.

By the time you get the +8 enhancement bonus, you're going up against 9th level spells. Also, the difference between a +6 and a +8 is a good roll (e.g rolling a 18 vs. a 17 would give you the same benifits for most of your career).

Kurald Galain
2009-06-04, 03:18 AM
Would it be reasonable to give a Monk VoP in addition to his normal WBL? We already gave the poor li'l guy Full BaB. Thanks in advance for the input!

That depends on what level you're playing at.

However, if you're using semi-exotic splatbooks anyway, the easiest solution is to replace "monk" with "swordsage" and you're done.

Duke of URL
2009-06-04, 01:30 PM
Full WBL sounds a little severe... since VoP gives about 80% WBL, how about VoP benefits plus 20% WBL?

And then, rather than actually have the item(s) purchased with the 20%, they just get the effects added to the VoP effects, as a sort of "customization" of VoP.

sonofzeal
2009-06-04, 02:00 PM
Monks with full BAB (and Flurry as a standard action, hopefully) are entirely decent. If you want to make a VoP monk worthwhile, I'd give the option to exchange Exalted Bonus Feats for 1/day SLAs drawn off the Cleric spell list, of a spell level that an equal level Cleric could cast. So the first one has to be a 1st level spell, the second one could be a 1st or 2nd level spell, etc. That'll fill in some of the missing utility, and make them more interesting to play.

Bayar
2009-06-04, 02:07 PM
it'd be like a massive, massive investment of cash and that's how the Artifacer gets his place in the top five (not the only way I know but it matters almost that much).

Incorrect. The artificier kicks ass because he can make any item in the game AND has those kickass infusions. Plus the bonus craft feats. And extra rings. And Craft reserve.

Starscream
2009-06-04, 03:20 PM
Full WBL sounds a little severe... since VoP gives about 80% WBL, how about VoP benefits plus 20% WBL?

Maybe you could increase the bonuses of VoP until they actually are worth WBL?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-06-04, 03:30 PM
Maybe you could increase the bonuses of VoP until they actually are worth WBL?The problem isn't bonuses, it's options. A 10th level character needs a way to fly. If you take VoP on a non-caster, then you are incapable of facing enemies with flight. There are similar issues with any number of needed capabilities. Simply increasing the +'s doesn't help when the main issue with VoP is not that it's inferior to WBL(though spending 2 feats to lose 20% of WBL isn't good in any way), the main issue with VoP is that it eliminates options.

quick_comment
2009-06-04, 04:13 PM
Yeah, I think giving them full VoP is reasonable. Makes them go from useless to rather good.

Look at it this way - they still get less stuff than the artificer, and they also dont get spells.