View Full Version : Maneuver switching and prestige classes

2009-06-03, 07:37 PM
From what I've been able to tell, prestige classes with ToB characters don't let you replace maneuvers as the classes themselves allow you to. It seems to me like this is a pretty significant disadvantage to taking a prestige class; a crusader4/cleric1/RKV10 is still walking around with 4 1st-level maneuvers, while a straight Crusader would have replaced all of those with something more useful. Did I miss something?

And assuming I didn't, would ruling that it continues to progress on even levels be a bad idea? You'd be limited to which out maneuvers for ones of the prestige class, and only those from the prestige class or the class you're progressing with initiator level advancement.

In the games I've been in it's usually allowed that a sorcerer can continue switching out spells as normal, but then again sorcerers can't switch out a 1st-level spell for a 6th-level, which is the main reason why I'm asking.

2009-06-03, 08:31 PM
No, you didn't miss anything. By RAW Tome of Battle PrCs do not allow maneuver swapping.

As for balance, I am firmly convinced that the lack of maneuver swapping is an oversight and house ruling it in is required for any of the PrCs that advance maneuvers to not be severely underpowered. I request that house rule in every game I ever consider making a ToB character for, and it's generally been approved.

For anyone doubtful on the subject, consider that the slowest base class progression of new maneuvers, including the swap, is one at each and every level. Not counting Master of Nine, the fastest PrC progression is half that. Even Master of Nine, without swapping, merely matches the Swordsage with swapping despite clearly being intended to be even more focused on lots of maneuvers than Swordsages are. The class features of these PrCs are nowhere near powerful enough to justify a difference that huge, and adding maneuver swapping for PrCs brings everything almost perfectly in line.

Blue Paladin
2009-06-04, 11:14 AM
Honestly I find it a non-issue. Yes you still have low level maneuvers known, but doesn't that just mean you don't prepare those maneuvers at the start of each day?

And it doesn't even interfere with learning high level maneuvers from your prestige class. Allowing both swapping out old maneuvers and simultaneously earning new maneuvers is probably overkill.

And nothing stops you from taking additional levels in the base class anyway. It's just another factor in choosing your next level: "Hmm. I could take Ruby Knight Vindicator 8, or I could take Crusader 6 and swap this lvl 1 maneuver for a lvl 7 one..."

2009-06-04, 11:28 AM
Still having lots of low level maneuvers known is not the problem. Having half or less the number of high level maneuvers known you should have is.

Warblade 16: 2 level 8 maneuvers, 2 level 7, 2 level 6, 2 level 5, 2 level 4, etc.
Warblade 6/typical PrC 10: 1 level 8, 1 level 7, 1 level 6, 1 level 5, 1 level 4, etc.

Taking the PrC cost you fully HALF of your high level maneuvers. And yet, if you compare the class features of the PrC with those of Warblade, they are nowhere near that much better.

And arguing that the base class is still available is hardly a point in favor of the PrCs being balanced.