Wizard/Sorc Comparative Spell List

[shadow_archmagi]

So, I often hear things about "Sheer versatality" in wizards. The thing is, a wizard gets about 2 spells per level. A wizard gains a new spell level every two levels; that means at normal rate he'll have 4 spells of each level. That means that our comparative chart of spells known per level looks like:

(ignoring 0 level spells)
WIZARD: 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
SORCER: 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

That comes to a grand total of... four extra spells known (at level 20 an extra 2nd level isn't doing much). Four spells known for two extra castings per day of every spell level you DO have doesn't sound too bad. A handful feats for the ability to cast whatever spells you know whenever you feel like it also seems OK, although things like metamagic still leave the sorcerer sad.


It still just doesn't seem like the sorc is seriously gimped. But that isn't the point of this thread. The point is to ask

"Just how many extra spells does your wizard actually get from scrolls/other wizards?"

I havn't actually played a wizard much, but I have to say that as a DM and as a PC I just really don't notice a whole lot of scrolls in the average encounter, or a lot of good opportunities to stop and take a week to decode someone elses spellbook. But your games might be different. Do you get a lot of scrolls? What if you're just starting at level 6 and say to your dm "I'd like some extra spells to represent enemy wizards defeated and scrolls found in my previous six levels of adventuring"

[Brogen]

Well, to answer your last question. That's what wealth by level is for, you can buy scrolls with wealth by level, and that would be the equivilent of having defeated enemy spell casters or whatever, as adventuring rewards are factored in to wealth by level.

[Demons_eye]

A wizard can scribe spells from scrolls into his book to get more spells.

Edit: Damn ninja'd

[holywhippet]

It depends on how your DM runs their campaign world. Some DMs allow the players to simply drop into "magic-mart" and buy magical scrolls. This lets the wizard find just about everything they want. Aside from scrolls as treasure, you can also capture enemy spellbooks and try to learn spells from there.

In one campaign game I was playing a bard while another player had a rogue/wizard. The DM allowed the other player to buy scrolls with his starting cash even though he wasn't allowing us to buy magical items as a rule. He let me buy some scrolls of cure light wounds even though I'm an arcane caster (technically they could still exist though).

As for the question of versatility - wizards are strategically versatile. If they know what they will be running into they can prepare the most suitable spells. Sorcerers are tactically versatile - if they run into something unexpected they can pick the best spells from their known list and possibly throw on some metamagic to boost the effects.

[DamnedIrishman]

Don't wizards traditionally start the game knowing all cantrips?

[lsfreak]

Collegiate wizard, he now gets 4 spells per levelup.

He can go to any wizard college, library, or whatever and copy spells for 150gp per spell level or less.

He is has no small, set number of spells he can know. He can get the 1st or 2nd-level spells for a few gold and have them on-hand at any time, unlike a sorcerer who must take a specific prestige class, spend a much more significant amount of money, or waste his spells known.

A well-played sorcerer can still be really good with the right selection of spells. A creative sorcerer making use of MotAA, runestaves (especially custom ones), and metamagic can cover a wide variety of bases. It's simply that the wizard can always get more and always at less cost than a sorcerer.

[valadil]

In my experience, casters don't need a whole lot of gear. I struggled to find items to buy the last time I played a sorc. My last wizard on the other hand bought and scribed every spell in the PHB. Even if you don't go that overboard, you can afford to take a lot of niche spells as a wizard that a sorcerer wouldn't even dream of. Also keep in mind that you'll be able to use enemy scrolls and spellbooks, so you don't have to spend a ton of money to get your spells.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So, I often hear things about "Sheer versatality" in wizards. The thing is, a wizard gets about 2 spells per level. A wizard gains a new spell level every two levels; that means at normal rate he'll have 4 spells of each level. That means that our comparative chart of spells known per level looks like:

(ignoring 0 level spells)
WIZARD: 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
SORCER: 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

That comes to a grand total of... four extra spells known (at level 20 an extra 2nd level isn't doing much).You messed up on the chart, the Wizard has 8 spells known of 9th level, not 4(17, 18, 19, and 20 all grant 2 spells while you have access to 9th level spells). Beyond that, at lower levels, the Wizard has an even bigger advantage. On even levels(ie the ones the Sorc isn't gimped before we even compare numbers), the Wizard has 4 spells known just from level-up. The Sorc has...1. 20th level isn't everything.
Four spells known for two extra castings per day of every spell level you DO have doesn't sound too bad.This is wrong. Specializtion is considered vital, meaning that the Wizard ends up with the same number of slots of his highest level as you(again, on levels the Sorc doesn't suck out of the gate). You have one more of the lower level slots, which is a much less friendly trade.
I havn't actually played a wizard much, but I have to say that as a DM and as a PC I just really don't notice a whole lot of scrolls in the average encounter, or a lot of good opportunities to stop and take a week to decode someone elses spellbook.You don't need to. The check to prepare spells out of someone else's book is 15+spell level, and you can take 10 on it. At 1, you have a +7 on the check, minimum, and need to hit a DC 16. By the time you're level 10, you don't need to take 10, as you make the check on a 1. The real question is whether you copy the book out then hock it, or just keep it.
But your games might be different. Do you get a lot of scrolls? What if you're just starting at level 6 and say to your dm "I'd like some extra spells to represent enemy wizards defeated and scrolls found in my previous six levels of adventuring"That's WBL. You either purchase scrolls(BOO) or you spend the 50 GP/level to represent having copied from other Wizards. During the game, you don't even need to do that, as it's called out in the PHB that Wizards are willing to trade spells with each other for spells of equal level.

And all of that of course ignores the Collegiate Wizard feat.

[Doc Roc]

Yeeeep. Maybe there's a guide for this.. Oh look, my sig, how odd it should affix itself to my posts carrying links. I should probably go ahead and revamp it so you can see what's what...

[Kurald Galain]

"Just how many extra spells does your wizard actually get from scrolls/other wizards?"

Sufficient.

In any major city, you can probably buy the spell scrolls you want (perhaps not of very high level spells). And whenever you defeat an enemy wizard (which isn't common but isn't rare either) you may be able to take their spellbook.

There are many low-level spells that are useful. If a low-level character asks to buy a new 1st or 2nd level spell, nearly every DM (in my experience) will let him. If a high-level character wants a dozen utility spells at the exchange of a bit of WBL, there's no problem either (barring Shivering Touch and the like).

Oh yeah, to further the comparison, most wizards specialize or even go focused specialist, which means that sorcerers aren't really ahead in spells-cast-per-day any more; and wizards get each new spell level a level earlier. And free feats, too.

[BobVosh]

In my friends game my wizard just paid about 7000 to scribe scrolls, trade spells into his book, etc. I didn't even bother with magic items. (all items cost 1.5x, and still sell for 1/2 book value, magic item creation allows for book value on creation)

But anyway, all my wizards carry around 20+ scrolls. My level 14 wizard who started at level 3 had 3 pages of scrolls. That takes a while.

[Riffington]

Basically, the answer almost depends on whether Collegiate Wizard is a feat in the campaign.

If there are wizard colleges, then you can take that feat. And there are organized groups of wizards around, so there is a market in spells, so you have decent access.

If wizards are rare and disorganized, then obviously you can't take that feat. And there would be no real "market" in spells - you'd have to happen to meet a wizard and either convince him to do [something more intimate than sex] with you or wrest his spellbook from him unwilling, hoping he doesn't have tricks or traps protecting it.

The closer to the former situation things are, the more powerful wizards are vs sorcerers.

[mostlyharmful]

Take a level you're actually likely to play at - say 9th.

The Wizard has - 5+Int mod, 4, 4, 4, 2

The Sorc has - 5, 4, 3, 2, -


Nowhere near as close as twentieth, and that's without the Wizard paying 50xlevel for a peek at someone elses book (if they can't just swap with a friend or grab a dead mages book).

Yes I chose a level where the Wizard can cast a higher level spell than the Sorc but that just makes this more obvious, if this is the case for half the damn game it's got to be taken into account, plus the Sorc only gets ONE spell of the highest level they can cast when they get it while a Wiz has at least 2 castings of 4 different spells if they aquire no extra and aren't specialized.