Enervation vs Energy Drain?

[Raenir Salazar]

What is possibly strictly better in 3.5?

[SurlySeraph]

If you mean the spells, Enervation. By putting metamagic on it that takes it up to Energy Drain's effective spell level, you make it more effective than Energy Drain.

If you mean the spell vs. the ability, that's kinda hard. Enervation can be ridiculously metamagiced until, once per day, you can kill pretty much anything in the Epic Level Handbook with a single spell. However, a well-built martial character with access to energy drain (such as through the Soul Eater PrC) can do an arbitrarily high number of negative levels, given enough time and enemies.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Especially a Totemist. Boy, wouldnt want to meet a Totemist/Soul Eater in a Dark Alley (TM).

[lsfreak]

Enervation is better. Zero cheese, zero metamagic reducers, a 9th-slot enervation does 8 negative levels (maximize + split ray). With a little work and a chunk of gold it's 40 a round if you really need to drop something.

[Raenir Salazar]

Hmm, what about say in Neverwinter Nights 2, and only one metamagic can be applied at anytime? So limited to maximize or empower?

[tyckspoon]

Hmm, what about say in Neverwinter Nights 2, and only one metamagic can be applied at anytime? So limited to maximize or empower?

I would probably go with Maximize for the guaranteed effect. But then, for Neverwinter Nights, the correct answer is always Isaac's Missile Storm.

[nightwyrm]

I think that some have found that empower is more efficient for small die rolls while maximize is more useful for rolling larger dies. For enervation, the average of a d4 is 2.5, the average of an empowered d4 is 3.5 and the maximized of a d4 is 4. That .5 difference is probably not worth an additional 1 level adjustment.

[Raenir Salazar]

I would probably go with Maximize for the guaranteed effect. But then, for Neverwinter Nights, the correct answer is always Isaac's Missile Storm.

Not really, on a Persistent world server nearly anyone of medium level has a ring that does 10/- magic damage reduction, making Isaac Missile storm useless useful spell.

I'm playing a Sorceror/Arcane Scholar so I get empower as +1 instead of +2 and Maxmize as +2 so far instead of +3

Strangely enough if I enerverate someone often enough they die. Ogres in 1 hit by a maximized Enerverate.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Enervation is better. Zero cheese, zero metamagic reducers, a 9th-slot enervation does 8 negative levels (maximize + split ray). With a little work and a chunk of gold it's 40 a round if you really need to drop something.Arcane Thesis+Empower+Maximize+Split Ray means 11 negative levels from an 8th level slot. That won't OHKO any real threats at level 15, but it will make most of them near-death. More meta-reducers(a Rod of Quicken[you don't even need the Greater version, thanks to how the Rods work]), will OHKO most things that are vulnerable to neg levels until you start facing things with 23+HD, which generally are still left near-dead by the combo. The best part is, a single other feat keeps you from being a one-trick pony, since now you can toss out 270 damage from any 8th level slots you didn't spend on Enervation.

[tyckspoon]

I think that some have found that empower is more efficient for small die rolls while maximize is more useful for rolling larger dies. For enervation, the average of a d4 is 2.5, the average of an empowered d4 is 3.5 and the maximized of a d4 is 4. That .5 difference is probably not worth an additional 1 level adjustment.

While true, in the particular case of Enervate I would still prefer the certainty of 4 negative levels over the possibility of doing a little more efficient damage, especially since there is no such thing as an actual half of a negative level. Also because D&D Rounding means you have a significant non-zero chance of gaining no extra damage from Empowering the spell, and odds are you only get one extra level. Better, IMO, to ding your target with the full 4 levels and have him better set up for whatever you plan to do to him next.


Not really, on a Persistent world server nearly anyone of medium level has a ring that does 10/- magic damage reduction, making Isaac Missile storm useless useful spell.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about how NWN collapses pretty much everything into this weird generic 'magic' damage type. And you should have said you had PVP concerns, that's hugely different from what the best approach is for killing normal monsters.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

While true, in the particular case of Enervate I would still prefer the certainty of 4 negative levels over the possibility of doing a little more efficient damage, especially since there is no such thing as an actual half of a negative level. Also because D&D Rounding means you have a significant non-zero chance of gaining no extra damage from Empowering the spell, and odds are you only get one extra level. Better, IMO, to ding your target with the full 4 levels and have him better set up for whatever you plan to do to him next.Empower, IIRC, deals 1d4+.5*1d4 damage, but I thought that it either rounded up or had a minimum of 1. It not would be odd, since some attacks(like Housecat's claws) should deal -3 damage, but instead deal 1.

[nightwyrm]

While true, in the particular case of Enervate I would still prefer the certainty of 4 negative levels over the possibility of doing a little more efficient damage, especially since there is no such thing as an actual half of a negative level. Also because D&D Rounding means you have a significant non-zero chance of gaining no extra damage from Empowering the spell, and odds are you only get one extra level. Better, IMO, to ding your target with the full 4 levels and have him better set up for whatever you plan to do to him next.


Actually, if you empower a d4, the results you'd get is 1,3,4,6 if you rolled 1,2,3,4. 50% of the time, your empower is as good or better as maximize; 25% you're doing a little worse; 25% you're doing a lot worse.

It's not as consistent as a maximize, but that +3 lv instead of +2 really hurts maximize.

[nightwyrm]

Empower, IIRC, deals 1d4+.5*1d4 damage, but I thought that it either rounded up or had a minimum of 1. It not would be odd, since some attacks(like Housecat's claws) should deal -3 damage, but instead deal 1.

Whenever you hit, you deal minimum 1 damage and it's not related to empower, where rounding doesn't have a min. Empower is 1d4*1.5 rounding down.