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HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 10:33 AM
There have been a lot of thread about V's spell choice and what that says about his character.

But Xykon chose Meteor Swarm rather than his Moderately Inescapable Forcecage in 658.

What does that say about Xykon's character?

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-04, 10:52 AM
That he has a similar attitude to V. Blast it till it dies.

Kornaki
2009-06-04, 11:13 AM
That he doesn't want them to escape probably.

I thought Xykon created that spell for only that single purpose; he probably chose to ditch it once he leveled up (Elan's confirmed that bards - and hence presumably sorcerers - can replace which spells they know)

Optimystik
2009-06-04, 11:20 AM
That he has a similar attitude to V. Blast it till it dies.

Which, I might add, is a much more appropriate frame of mind for a sorcerer than a wizard.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 12:38 PM
That he has a similar attitude to V. Blast it till it dies.
Not always. He likes to play with them first. Some times he plays with a ball. Some times he plays the choking game.


That he doesn't want them to escape probably.

The the cage is better no? If the blast was successful, then they escape with death.



I thought Xykon created that spell for only that single purpose; he probably chose to ditch it once he leveled up (Elan's confirmed that bards - and hence presumably sorcerers - can replace which spells they know)
Well if he created the spell with the single purpose of trapping Miko then it's a plot hole that he did not plan on trapping Miko, no?

Dalenthas
2009-06-04, 12:40 PM
The purpose was to make Miko think she was trapped, but let her escape anyway.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 12:44 PM
The purpose was to make Miko think she was trapped, but let her escape anyway.
Then why not plan to trap her?

From the third panel of 369 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html):
:redcloak: A paladin of the Sapphire Guard? Here???
:miko: The bearer of the Crimson Mantle? Here???

And what more perfect is there for Xykon to get what he wants now?

From the fifth panel of 658 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html):
:xykon: 'Course now he's [O-Chul] earned an upgrade to Prisoner First Class

factotum
2009-06-04, 12:47 PM
For all we know, Xykon dropped the "Moderately Escapable Forcecage" spell as soon as it had served its purpose. He's a sorcerer, which means the number of spells he knows is limited--therefore it would make a lot of sense for him to swap out a spell of such limited utility for something he'd get more mileage out of.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 12:49 PM
For all we know, Xykon dropped the "Moderately Escapable Forcecage" spell as soon as it had served its purpose. He's a sorcerer, which means the number of spells he knows is limited--therefore it would make a lot of sense for him to swap out a spell of such limited utility for something he'd get more mileage out of.

I don't buy it. I think there is another reason. Your mileage may vary.

Optimystik
2009-06-04, 12:59 PM
I don't think he even blew a spell slot on it. The fact that he developed it himself leads me to believe that it was an epic spell with a slew of mitigating factors to make it easy to cast. That way he could learn it, use it once, and forget its existence without it taking up valuable real estate in his skull.

Furthermore, Xykon is so high a level that it's unlikely he gained one level recently, much less two. The only challenges he had that could have given him that any XP would be the silver dragon, Soon, and Gestalt V. I don't know how much XP a dragon is worth, but he didn't defeat Soon, and V lost his powers before the finishing blow, so it's unlikely he got any XP from the latter two.

theinsulabot
2009-06-04, 01:24 PM
I don't think he even blew a spell slot on it. The fact that he developed it himself leads me to believe that it was an epic spell with a slew of mitigating factors to make it easy to cast. That way he could learn it, use it once, and forget its existence without it taking up valuable real estate in his skull.

Furthermore, Xykon is so high a level that it's unlikely he gained one level recently, much less two. The only challenges he had that could have given him that any XP would be the silver dragon, Soon, and Gestalt V. I don't know how much XP a dragon is worth, but he didn't defeat Soon, and V lost his powers before the finishing blow, so it's unlikely he got any XP from the latter two.

x knocked the splice out of him, deliberately. i am pretty confidant that qualifies as him defeating the soul spliced juiced v

Optimystik
2009-06-04, 01:33 PM
x knocked the splice out of him, deliberately. i am pretty confidant that qualifies as him defeating the soul spliced juiced v

Technically, he lost it by failing a concentration check. Xykon was at best indirectly responsible.

It's a DM call at that point, and I don't see Rich giving Xykon even more levels when he's already more than a match for the PCs.

EENick
2009-06-04, 02:08 PM
Technically, he lost it by failing a concentration check. Xykon was at best indirectly responsible.

It's a DM call at that point, and I don't see Rich giving Xykon even more levels when he's already more than a match for the PCs.

I don't know there is a certain irony to V's attack actually making Xykon stronger, still you are right it is probably unlikely.

Cilvyn
2009-06-04, 02:12 PM
V's personality OK
But Xycon.. he was prolly distracted when he chose spells or simply diddn't care about what spells he would take today...

derfenrirwolv
2009-06-04, 02:12 PM
Then why not plan to trap her?

In wildlife biology and hunting there's the concept of a judas animal. You catch it, and either tag it with radio telemetry or track it back to its group and then catch them all.

That's what Xykon was doing. He captured she who must not me named, took a piece of her cloak, and used that to make scrying on her a piece of cake. This allowed Xykon to know that the gate was in the throne room.

Kornaki
2009-06-04, 02:51 PM
Then why not plan to trap her?

From the third panel of 369 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html):
:redcloak: A paladin of the Sapphire Guard? Here???
:miko: The bearer of the Crimson Mantle? Here???


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html

They very much so planned on her escaping. Redcloak just didn't expect to actually find any paladins before reaching the city. Xykon even explicitly states he researched the spell for this exact purpose

Dagren
2009-06-04, 02:51 PM
V's personality OK
But Xycon.. he was prolly distracted when he chose spells or simply diddn't care about what spells he would take today...Sorcerers don't choose spells on a per-day basis. You're thinking of wizards.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 03:07 PM
In wildlife biology and hunting there's the concept of a judas animal. You catch it, and either tag it with radio telemetry or track it back to its group and then catch them all.

That's what Xykon was doing. He captured she who must not me named, took a piece of her cloak, and used that to make scrying on her a piece of cake. This allowed Xykon to know that the gate was in the throne room.

OK. Then why not plan to capture some member of the Sapphire guard? Redcloak was surprised that any member of the guard was at the tower.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html

They very much so planned on her escaping. Redcloak just didn't expect to actually find any paladins before reaching the city. Xykon even explicitly states he researched the spell for this exact purpose

376 is after 369. Redcloak is surprised in 369 by a member of the Sapphire Guard being the tower. This implies they did not have a plan to grab one of the Sapphire Guard in the tower and let him or her escape.

In 376, they have a plan to use Miko. The implication, to me, is that they formed a plan to use Miko after they got her.

Now at most 4 rounds expired between encountering Miko and using the spell. So Xykon researched the spell beforehand for some purpose. I just don't buy that it was for a non-existent plan to capture and release a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard.

Anyway, my larger point is not whether Xykon knows a Moderately Inescapable Forcecage spell. That was good a joke and a good plot device.

My larger point, is that, drama wise, I'm having a little trouble believing that the Xykon that just defeated a soul spliced V, the Xykon who can estimate O-Chul's ability to survive an acid breathing shark tank to better than 1 percent, can be defeated by a low-level wizard with invisibility, a half-dead and half-naked paladin and a cowardly raven...and the power of friendship...darn those meddling kids...I'm melting...I'm melting...

PS And it is only a little suspension of disbelief. I'm still enjoying the story. In fact I think Xykon may only be playing with them.

Random832
2009-06-04, 03:38 PM
Now at most 4 rounds expired between encountering Miko and using the spell. So Xykon researched the spell beforehand for some purpose. I just don't buy that it was for a non-existent plan to capture and release a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard.

It could be a situational plan to "capture and release" a member of any enemy group he manages to capture one of. I mean, I'm sure that comes up more often than you'd think; just because we only see it with Miko...

David Argall
2009-06-04, 03:40 PM
OK. Then why not plan to capture some member of the Sapphire guard? Redcloak was surprised that any member of the guard was at the tower.

As already explained, Xykon had this bright idea, which Redcloak thought quite unlikely to actually work. Thus he is surprised when they actually do find a paladin, and tries to kill Miko. [Destruction spells do not make for taking prisoners.] When Xykon takes Milo prisoner, Redcloak has to follow Xykon's plan.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 03:56 PM
As already explained, Xykon had this bright idea, which Redcloak thought quite unlikely to actually work. Thus he is surprised when they actually do find a paladin, and tries to kill Miko. [Destruction spells do not make for taking prisoners.] When Xykon takes Milo prisoner, Redcloak has to follow Xykon's plan.

Hmm. OK. Rereading 376, I stand corrected. Xykon researched the spell in case they encountered a paladin.

However, my suspension of disbelief is waning a little bit after O-Chul survived the 2nd Meteor Swarm (and the first direct hit and the Chain Lightning).

I want V to get away as much as the next fan and I know Xykon is overconfident right now but loosing to invisibility, a couple of potions, and a familiar is not quite working for me.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-04, 06:00 PM
Why?

No, I'm serious. The efficiency of resource use on the heroes' side is the only thing causing you to disbelieve? I'm not quite following your logic.

Also, they haven't lost yet. Xykon could cast Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html). Or Intensified Greater Electric Orb.

Dagren
2009-06-04, 06:10 PM
Also, they haven't lost yet. Xykon could cast Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html). Or Intensified Greater Electric Orb.Not if he doesn't know them he can't. Remember, he's a sorcerer, not a wizard like Tsukiko.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 06:16 PM
Why?

No, I'm serious. The efficiency of resource use on the heroes' side is the only thing causing you to disbelieve? I'm not quite following your logic.


No it's the inefficiency of resource use on the bad guys side. It's not so much outright disbelief as annoyance. The feeling is that Xykon would have done better if he meant to stop them outsight in 658.

I mean its complex. It depends on the story, it's weight, the characters, etc. I watch Wizard of Oz and don't think twice about why the witch would have a bucket of water in her lair because it's a fun movie. I watched the original Star Wars as a kid and I didn't think twice. I watch it know and think it's still a fun and exciting movie but the exhaust port thing...eh.

OotS is still fun and exciting comic, but Xykon missing in with the Meteor Swarm in 658, or not choosing another spell...eh.

Of course, you may not get the same feeling.



Also, they haven't lost yet.

I hope not. I'm rooting for the bad guys.



Xykon could cast Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html). Or Intensified Greater Electric Orb.
If he has it but what's the diff? It's like a lesser Metero Swarm in that it's still a ranged touch but only has a 30 feet range. The orb spells are best used to either overcome spell resistance (the orb spell bypass it) or those with high reflex saves and improved evasion (like a high level rogue). Neither O-Chul nor V have spell resistance or high reflex saves or evasion (or at least evasion is unlikely).

Foryn Gilnith
2009-06-04, 07:04 PM
O-Chul and V are irrelevant right now; the familiar is the one that's going to be carrying the amulet. And the familiar has Improved Evasion.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-06-04, 07:15 PM
O-Chul and V are irrelevant right now; the familiar is the one that's going to be carrying the amulet. And the familiar has Improved Evasion.
Exactly. Xykon's let it get to the stage where a familiar can destroy his phylactery. The only way I can explain it is because he thought there was no way he could lose (and thus made subpar choices). It's not just overconfidence...it's more like he's blinded by his own power...Maybe it's not that different than when he turned his back on Roy...

[TS] Shadow
2009-06-04, 09:06 PM
Why would Xykon want to cage up V anyway? While it would keep him in one place it would also block off any spells Xykon could hit him with. If anything, Xykon should have used Time Stop. He could have stopped time, set off a few meteor swarms and other uuber spells, and it would have dealt with V pretty well. But then again, as stated above, Xykon likes to play with his food before eating it.

PId6
2009-06-04, 09:21 PM
Shadow;6221064']Why would Xykon want to cage up V anyway? While it would keep him in one place it would also block off any spells Xykon could hit him with. If anything, Xykon should have used Time Stop. He could have stopped time, set off a few meteor swarms and other uuber spells, and it would have dealt with V pretty well. But then again, as stated above, Xykon likes to play with his food before eating it.
First of all, I think it's unlikely he has Time Stop. We've already seen him use Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain, and Soul Bind, and Sorcerers only get three 9th level spells (usually). Secondly, you can't affect other people during a Time Stop so Meteor Swarming certainly doesn't work.

[TS] Shadow
2009-06-04, 09:28 PM
First of all, I think it's unlikely he has Time Stop. We've already seen him use Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain, and Soul Bind, and Sorcerers only get three 9th level spells (usually). Secondly, you can't affect other people during a Time Stop so Meteor Swarming certainly doesn't work.

Oh, I didn't know that, sorry. Still new to this D&D thing.

Toper
2009-06-04, 09:51 PM
But Xykon chose Meteor Swarm rather than his Moderately Inescapable Forcecage in 658.

What does that say about Xykon's character?
Rather like the Superfriends (http://www.seanbaby.com/superfriends/superman.htm), Xykon doesn't particularly remember all his options, especially under pressure. Like he just monologued, he thinks it's all about raw power, and the idea of using a 7th level spell when he can still throw Meteor Swarms probably hasn't even occurred to him yet.

Unless Redcloak's advising him or he's had time to plan something more amusing, Xykon pretty much solves all his problems by flying in and hitting them really hard. Start of Darkness makes this even more explicit, but it's also his immediate reaction to the ghost-martyrs (even when it doesn't work very well!) and to Vaarsuvius's attack, and his plan for taking over Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html), though he did come up with the bouncy ball for fun. I think his failure so far to cast any spell below ninth level is very much in character.